AMY GOODMAN interviewing on Democracy Now yesterday: What is your assessment right now of the situation with Israel and Palestine? And were you going to meet with the Palestinian prime minister?
NOAM CHOMSKY: I did. I was going to meet with the Prime Minister. Unfortunately, I couldn't. But his office called me here in Amman this morning, and we had a long discussion.
He is pursuing policies, which, in my view, are quite sensible, policies of essentially developing facts on the ground. It's almost, I think it's probably a conscious imitation of the early Zionist policies, establishing facts on the ground and hoping that the political forms that follow will be determined by them. And the policies sound to me like sensible and sound ones. The question, of course, is whether the extent to which Israel and the United States, which is a determining factor, the extent to which they'll permit them
to be implemented. But if implemented, and if, of course, Israel and the United States would terminate their systematic effort to separate Gaza from the West Bank, which is quite illegal, if that continues, yes, it could turn into a viable Palestinian state.
I'm just a journalist here. But, compare with Azmi Bishara saying, "Salam Fayyad's plans for Palestine and the Palestinians are nought but a contrived folk festival where the occupied bow to their oppressors." And Meron Benvenisti in the Guardian, calling the PA leaders "traitors to their own cause."
Chomsky seems to have hope in Fayyad, in spite of the “left”‘s condemnation of him as a quisling.
It sounds like Chomsky was making a distinction between the policies of Fayyad that he approves of and the way Israel and the US might try to use him. He specifically pointed out that the way the US and Israel try to separate the WB and Gaza is illegal.
To the extent that Fayyad eliminates corruption, that is a good thing. It isn’t a good thing if the PA uses its security forces to do Israel’s dirty work for it or if the PA is expected to be the good puppet in contrast to Hamas. And we all know the Gaza blockade is meant to make Gazans miserable and establish a contrast between what happens to Palestinians under the US/Israel-approved leaders and the ones the Palestinians elected.
Its a characterization merely that Fayyad is doing Israel’s dirty work.
The same actions can be understood as fundamentally assertive, backbone.
Yes, Richard, the suppression of human rights can be seen as assertive if you don’t have a consistent set of standards on such matters and clearly you don’t. If you read the link below, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights seems to see problems in both the WB and Gaza.
link to pchrgaza.org
oh spare us. there is nothing assertive about being a traitor. read the gaza bombshell , especially the rose’s evidence w/pdf’s of elliot abrams (ok, state department ..same thing) outlines left agter meeting w/abbas. fayyad’s all over that. ‘will leave the economics for fayyad to work out’ etc. manufacturing a coup against your own people’s democratically elected representatives is not fundamentally assertive, backbone, it’s treason. and one wonder why he’s not popular w/palestinians!! there’s no way fayyad could ever have been ELECTED as prime minister..please. he’s appointed by the occupiers. ‘nough said.
my impression of fayyad has changed considerably since he’s started to embrace bds more publicly (just in the last six months) and started actively engaging in the non violent protests against the occupation.
but no doubt about the role fayyad has played as a quisling. this recent disclosure of USAID for palestine building the settlement roads… who do you think deals w/USAID if not fayyad? he was instrumental in facilitating the US/IS control of WB via funding palestine forces to act as proxies. this is bullshit. his tune seems to be changing lately and perhaps that is a result in some support from promises made by mitchell wrt proximity talks. i don’t know.
in spite of the “left”’s condemnation of him as a quisling
why the scare quotes around left witty. is it ever possible for you to post without taking a stab at our team? one might get the impression you’re trying to weaken us with every breath you take.
It’s too bad nobody every elected Fayyad to office and that he holds no power aside from the support of the US.
It’s too bad nobody every elected Fayyad to office
i’m afraid he’s going to have to build up a bit of a track record before he’s trusted due to his expertise in facilitating the occupiers agenda. but like i said earlier he appears to be changing his tune lately.
link to gilad.co.uk
Gilad Atzmon
Planet Chomsky vs. Dershowitz’s Orbit
“Interestingly enough, Chomsky is not exactly the harsh anti Zionist figure that Dershowitz wants us to believe. Along the years, Chomsky was flirting heavily with Zionism. He was often visiting Israeli universities. I myself attended his Tel Aviv University lectures in the 1980’s. Chomsky was spreading some bizarre ungrounded ideas defying early Zionist commitment to the Jewish state. As American activist Jeff Blankfort pointed out recently Chomsky has been dismissing the power of the pro-Israel lobby. He opposed the BDS movement and made some efforts to “dissuade people from using the term, apartheid, to describe Israel’s control over Palestinian society”. Chomsky also opposes the Palestinian right of return and a one-state solution. Chomsky is in fact, a liberal Zionist as well as a kibbutz enthusiast. He may as well be the prototype of the righteous Jew and Zionist fig leaf. And in spite of that Israel denied the entry of the 82 year old American academic “
“Time is also overdue to spit the Dershowitzes and other Zionist comic figures from our public, academic, social and intellectual life. De-Zionification is of the essence in the search for peace and
humanity. “
Though I have very little hope in a truly independent palestinian state coming about, I can understand why Fayaad’ efforts garner the support they do; even from some realist quarters and/or human rights sympathizers that understand the actual situation on the ground and what Israel is trying to do all too well.
In the end, when the discussion points have all been aired out, the hand wringing done and the despair over the creeping annexation vented, there are the actual, living and breathing palestinians. To whom most of us can only say things like “unfortunately, it’ll get worse before it gets better”. That from those who can sympathize well enough, and even participate in a counter-action or two, or five, but who, in the end, do not have to experience and live through what “worse” actually means. We know all about it, of course, because we see Gaza, so it’s not totally abstract. But to palestinians in the WB, to whom Gaza is a distinct possibility, it is quite concrete – a rambling threat in the distance, which is not so distant. Gaza is always a stark, minute-by-minute reminder of the fate Israel has in mind for the lot of them – sooner and possibly worse, one they would implement in the WB in a heart-beat, as soon as they think they could get away with it without anyone noticing. Which is what the gaza experiment is really all about for Israel – a test case to probe the world’s resolve and commitment to universal rights.
I try not to forget that the people living under a brutal occupation are still people and they need hope and a semblance of normalcy to cling to, before I get too quick on the draw and point accusing fingers at Fayyad. Personally, like Phil and most people here, I don’t believe the two-state is viable any longer – if only because deep and ugly forces within Israel and its dwindling supporters abroad, won’t – and can’t let it happen. Zionism, to my mind, has sometime ago turned the corner and started descending from a nationalist and ideological movement into a cult. Dragging with it who knows what. But the Palestinians are the ones who are made to bear the brunt of the collective insanity gripping Israelis. Along with a minority of righteous Israelis. Fayyad, who seems like a smart man knows the hopelessness of his grand vision too, surely. How could he not?
Yet, the essence of Fayyad’s enterprise may be to form points of cohesion and empowerment for the Palestinians – a way of giving them a few success stories – enterprises the “good people of the West” can praise without being called anti-semites or self-hating. I am therefore inclined to see the “instruments of state” he is building as more of a lesson plan – a way to stay focused on the palestinians’ rightfull place within the greater humanity. No matter that the ultimate enterprise itself may be doomed. Along the way, palestinians will get good practice in co-operative ventures with the sympathetic elements outside. Every single entity that helps Fayyad – be it Bernard Avishai – the cultural zionist – or one of France’s or the EU’s economic agencies – or even Dayton himself – will end up having a dog in the fight. They will be there when Israel starts its final push, and their presence may be the difference. People do not take lightly to their investments being destroyed.
In the comment section here, we just voice opinions. I only wanted to ask that we temper the quisling accusations, if possible. As a way of telling myself to do the same.
But then I was always partial to Don Quixote grandly tilting at the wind mills.
I just realized that my post sounds a bit like a witty, gone grandiose ( may be a touch more eloquent, one hopes?). Darn. I so didn’t mean to do that. But that just goes to show what this conflict can do to any of us. None are safe from infection by creeping witticism. What a virus, that is.
I am therefore inclined to see the “instruments of state” he is building as more of a lesson plan – a way to stay focused on the palestinians’ rightfull place within the greater humanity. No matter that the ultimate enterprise itself may be doomed.
or a lesson in pain. there is a difference between a doomed venture that doesn’t end up bringing you profit and one that takes your money and your labor and manipulates it into annexing your land, which is what the latest road project looks like, according to the nation.
from the guardian link citing Meron Benvenisti:
Abbas and his technocratic prime minister, Salam Fayyad, are working towards independence, though Palestinian opinion seems increasingly sceptical about the prospects…..
(jump)
In this situation, the concept of two states is misleading. “What does it mean, a state? It’s a solution for less than one quarter of the Palestinian people on an area that is less than 10% of historic Palestine.” Palestinian leaders who are ready to accept this “are a bunch of traitors to their own cause”.</B< Ramallah, prosperous headquarters of Abbas's Palestinian Authority and the recipient of millions of dollars in foreign aid, is a "bubble in which those who steal the money can enjoy themselves".
well, i agree w/that wrt the Bantustans plan.
Fayyad hasn’t agreed to the bantustans though – he speaks about a state with complete autonomy on ’67 borders, that jews (settlers) can live in the Palestinian state as Palestinian citizens (ie Israeli facts on the ground mean nothing), and wants to expand Palestinian security forces and build outside Area A.
i know sumud. the reason i copied it was phil wrote that Benvenisti called the PA leaders “traitors to their own cause” and i wanted to see the context in which it was written. if the qualifier is accurate i would agree but thus far it is not as no palestinian leader has ever accepted a state on 10% of the land. as i mentioned earlier my impression of fayyad has changed considerably..lately. but his track record is challenged no doubt about it. i don’t think most palestinians took kindly to the the US/IS/PA coup attempt against gaza. instigating civil wars is messy business and most peoples attention span doesn’t allow them to forgive people who micro manage wars against them.
hey, i am not the audience here. if fayyad ran in an election today he’d be lucky w/5% of the vote (i’m guessing) 6 months ago it wasn’t more than 2-3%. i’ve listened to palestinians blog about him and it ain’t pretty. but hey i’m open. do we have any palestinian posters here? what do they have to say? i’m all for fayyad supporting bds but he was appointed, he wasn’t chosen by palestinians to represent them, ever. just remember that.
I do remember that annie – and his parties (Third Way) very small measure of support in the 2006 elections. Do you know if he was directly involved with the Fatah coup against Hamas? He isn’t mentioned in the Vanity Fair article – though obviously he has benefitted from being appointed PM in the aftermath. I’ll write a little more below where you mention Netanyahu’s bogus economic peace.
Meron Benvenisti is on record for wanting a 1 state solution and the end of Israel, so ofcourse we see him rejecting peace.
The left wants the destruction of Israel.
You know, the “stinkin’ Commie” line doesn’t carry nearly as much water as it used to.
You’re the guy third from the left, aren’t you?
You mean the infamous Chomsky that denied Khmer Rouge genocide and signing a petition in support of French Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson.
Great article about Chomsky.
link to newledger.com
Funny how the most vicious sort of attack any Jewish intellectual has to face invariably comes from other Jews.
Chaos, have you seen Chomsky’s pro writings on Khmer Rouge.
Its all online.
That’s a lie. I’ve read what Chomsky said about the Khmer Rouge. In 1977 he wrote a review for the Nation where he expressed some skepticism about the very large numbers of dead attributed to them and he did so again in early 1979, but he was also clear in saying the very large numbers might turn out to be correct. He was always clear in saying that they were guilty of large scale massacres and other atrocities and after the Vietnamese invasion revealed the scope was in fact genocidal, he used the term “genocide” like everyone else.
Donald, he knows that’s a lie, DS is having fun.
I’d like to add that Chomsky’s remarks on this have nothing to do with supporting or denouncing the Kmer Rouge, they had to with the hypocrisy with which massacres are habitually presented in the US media. Saying he supported or denounced the Kmer rouge is completely missing the point.
He was objecting to the fact that the Kmer Rouge was reported, but the massive, genocidal US bombing campaign wasn’t (at least not accurately, because the extent of the damage was hidden from the public) :
link to yale.edu
Fayyad at Herziliyah 2010:
link to youtube.com
It’s only highlights – they have his full speech up (about 40 minuts) but a hebrew translator is dubbed over.
I don’t think he’s a quisling – there’s a lot of tension between him and Abbas apparently over Fayyad’s determination to declare statehood unilaterally. Seems to me like Palestine has been in desperate need of a technocrat, since before 1948 even.
sumud, i just think you should be aware of the ‘economic peace’ netanyahu has been pushing as an alternative to negotiating a state. IS/US has a long history of pushing statehood down the road. fayyad is not seriously considering declaring statehood unilaterally. his determination is focused on the alternative to a state. check out
My Testimony at Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. this is the President, American Task Force on Palestine .
get it? “clearly stated that the actual establishment of a state can only be the consequence of a negotiated agreement” ….nothing about declaring statehood unilaterally. this is from the horses mouth. from American Task Force on Palestine wiki page
anyway back to the first link..
so this has been likud’s plan. give the palestinians somethign to work towards. it is not a state and should not be confused with a state.
of course they applauded, this is the ‘economic peace plan’.
don’t get fooled again.
also, i am not saying that the American Task Force on Palestine is all wrong about everything. that is not how i feel. i just think the time is past for long term frameworks that promise to make a state after palestine lives up to certain benchmarks. i’m not buying it. israel will just keep building settlements.
annie ~ I’m aware of Netanyahu’s economic peace. Samah Sabawi gave a most excellent talk at this years Israeli Apartheid Week’s Melbourne event on the topic, drawing direct comparison between it and Moshe Dayan’s Open Door Policy from the years after ’67. She pointed out the problems of the 3 or 4 free zones that are under development, namely that items produced in them will be labelled “Made in Palestine” (which will mess with the B in BDS, both inside and outside Palestine), and the minimal to zero labour and environmental regulations. This article, written about the same time, is a fairly good summation of her talk:
“Is PA Guilty of Undermining BDS Campaign?”
link to bdsmovement.net
Sabawi discusses PA complicity with Netanyahu’s Economic Peace – I guess the crucial question is how involved is Fayyad? She quotes him:
“Even though I am an economist by profession and I appreciate the importance of the economy very much, the solution is not to be found in money or in industrial zones. I am interested not in redefining the occupation but in ending the occupation.”
.. but also recounts the resumption of monthly meetings of the Israeli-Palestinian Joint Economic Committee in Sept 2009 – with Bassem Khoury (Palestinian Minister for Nat. Economy) representing PA. Khoury resigned as minister a month later over the PA’s backtracking on Goldstone – and since then there’s been no mention – that I could find – of the I-P JEC meeting. I presume it still is.
You say that Fayyad isn’t serious about declaring statehood unilaterally but I’m not sure what that’s based on. The ATFP Senate testimony? I can’t accept an ATFP statement as the horses mouth. The US will likely be the last power to recognise Palestinian statehood should it be declared, under pressure from both Israel and the Lobby. This is the article that made me stop and think about Fayyad – detailing the shit hitting the fan in Israel over unilateral statehood plans:
“Who’s Afraid of Salam Fayyad?”
link to forward.com
Of note is the fact that Fatah are reportedly greatly opposed to any plan for unilateral declaration. This is (I think) more anxiety about their power base being eroded, than concern for the Palestinian people or a desire to end the occupation. I’ll start a new post b/c I want to link to a few other articles.
At the end of April Haaretz again reported on the split between Abbas and Fayyad over his intent on statehood declaration:
“Fatah tensions flare as Abbas rejects Fayyad statehood plans”
link to haaretz.com
The AP reported about the same time:
“A new style of politics in the West Bank”
link to google.com
Haaretz report growing support for Fayyad but don’t quote any numbers – indeed may just be a small increase. Doubling your support base doesn’t mean much if it goes from 2 to 4% ! Abbas warns declaring statehood will limit the state to just 50-60% of the OPTs but doesn’t articulate why – when, if the matter goes to the ICJ it’s pretty much a given they’ll receive 100%.
I don’t know if you watched the Herzliya clip but Barak doesn’t look too happy when the camera is on him. Fayyad spoke enough about the need to end the occupation to convince me he’s serious and not just about the status quo or accpeting a “state minus”. Statehood seems like a threat, it’s couched in terms of “if the peace process fails” then we go to statehood. The PP will invariably fail – so I guess we’ll have to wait and see..
One thing about Fayyad that seriously worries me in his statement that went something along the lines of “the refugees can live in the Palestinian state” – he didn’t elaborate beyond that – but Hamas interpreted it as a giving up of RoR which would be a disaster and likely provoke a violent intifada.. I’d like to hear him speak more about right of return. I’ve been wondering lately if their can be an incremental solution to the I/P conflict rather than a comprehensive singular agreement. Something along the lines of:
1. declare state on ’67 borders: Israel protests and refuses to withdraw IDF
2. take Israel to ICJ and have ’67 borders confirmed – forcing withdrawal
3. Address RoR (via ICJ) and tie it to normalisation of relations with Arab League states.
I don’t know if an incremental solution could work but 20 years after Madrid/Oslo it’s clear that Israel will do everything possible to block a comprehensive and just negotiated agreement.
sumud, maybe i am wrong. i hope you are right.
No plan will work unless the obvious is completed first…in my view.
Prior to that abbass should be exiled with his group, they are not the legally democratically elected. Hammas would have been revoted out soon after abbass and company were gone, allowing for the youth and young politically minded people whom want to live as humans with out being killed off for sport.
All the land stolen should be paid for, since the right of return would never be allowed realistically, and to wait for the occupation to kill itself off, they would surely press the nuclear buttons simply due to their mental inability to reason logically.
All settlements gone from WB and a single wall built to separate the side all the way into the seaport and out in the water, (to guard the obvious)ga$ that could support the palestinians.
Administrations past and present whom need to be in prison for life includes the usa as well.
After all that I could see a true peace possible, and better yet a really good thing for the zionist and jews to get what they need, …people around the world to stop hating and wanting to get even for the wrong doings for the past
60+ years.
And the federal reserve banks which are not federally owned to be diasmantled in hiarchy, along with 50% of all that happen in the news world and tv cable etc, not to be controlled by the singleness that is always bias and propagandizing the world with lies and deception.
does anyone have a similar stance?
Oh c’mon, that old threadbare canard? That one has gotten more mileage than a,fill in the blank. And I’m not a big fan of Chomsky,
That was in response to the Faurisson charge. Reply button is acting screwy.
i don’t even bother w/DavidSiden. he’s a hopeless case.
Abunimah has a pretty good response to this:
Chomsky the great critic of US efforts to undermine democracy and impose its clients around the world is now effusively endorsing what is in effect a US-backed puppet regime? Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what Chomsky said about precisely the same Ramallah Palestinian Authority whose “prime minister” he now finds so “sensible” during a lecture in Boston on 21 January 2009.
Check here for the full post:
I’m surprised at some of the posters above who have expressed tentative approval for Fayyad’s recent policies. His boycott of only settlement (not Israeli) goods is just a ploy to shore up support amongst Palestinians in the West Bank. Quite simply, he is imposed by the US and Israel on the Palestinian people, who don’t want him. He’s definitely not working for the Palestinians.
ah shoot im so bad with html…the hyperlinked paragraph is my own, but it leads to Abunimah’s post.
Mohamad, your link is not working, can you relink it.
sorry, this is kinda embarrassing. Here is the link-please copy and paste it into your browser:)
link to bit.ly
Mohammad, it’s not approval for Fayyad some of us express here. It’s more of a sense of “let’s see if some lemonade can be made out of this lemon”. The best counter-attack sometimes uses the attacker’s own weapons. If Fayyad is such a “weapon” – forged and unleashed by the israel/US camp – perhaps we can hope he may yet turn into a boomerang. Stranger things have happened.
You see, I come from a place where i totally count on the israelis to make an absolute mess of things – certainly for the palestinians – but also for themselves. I get my clues as to what may or may not work to resist t their policies by browsing through the journals of mental disease. So I can better recognize the forms insanity can take, and perhaps get some clue as to the few ways the patient (the israeli collective in this case) can be rendered less infectious, if not entirely harmless, to their own environment – both near and far. I said before that having good diagnosis is essential for any kind of prognosis, and the jury is still out on the nature of the disease.
It is significant to note that BDS – no matter how small its successes in the large scheme of things are – drive israelis absolutely bonkers. Fayyad – if he enforces even limited BDS against say, settlements – is potentially quite useful in this respect. And having israel go a bit bonkers is a very important step in the diagnosis of the specifics of the insanity playing out in front of our eyes. And once this becomes a bit clearer, the next step can finally begin (that’s the one that involves having the rest of the world, the US in particular, recognize that they have one sick puppy on their hands).
Hope you can separate the apologists (of which most of us do not consider ourselves to be a members) from the sympathetic observers (who do not feel empowered to make judgments on behalf of the Palestinians who are “on ground” zero, so to speak) from diagnosticians (who know that certain illnesses must become fully manifest before the progress of the disease can be arrested and/or the patient must be sent to bellevue).
I appreciate where you’re coming from, and if I understood correctly then you are in no way expressing any support for Fayyad, but willing to see if, while he is in a position of power, he may effect some positive development.
However, it is an exaggeration to even attribute the PA’s calls for BDS to Fayyad-he’s a master of taking credit for the work of others and presenting himself as the face of it. I must reiterate that his singular desire to unilaterally declare a Palestinian state isn’t a testimony to his goal of getting something done, but rather a measure of his subservience to Israeli interests; despite all of its faults, the PA has always resisted giving Israel final victory by declaring statehood in a bantustan. In the unprecedented crackdown on freedom of expression I witnessed in the West Bank after Fayyad came to power, in his bloody campaign against Hamas, in his deployment of security services to beat up and throttle peaceful protests and in his shameless interaction with some of the most despicable faces of Zionism, Fayyad is Israel’s best friend in its war against the Palestinians.
Nobody should ever take seriously the BDS show put on by a man who at the same time is a guest speaker at the Herziliya conference.
Mohammad, I find it noteworthy that you attribute this crackdown in the West Bank to Fayyad, when it was always my own belief that Abbas was primarily behind it, particularly in his really batshit hatred for Hamas.
Abbas doesn’t exactly love Hamas, but he has his own party’s interest to think about, and that doesn’t involve an all-out war against Hamas. Fayyad has no such hindrance. For example, it was he who personally oversaw the killing of six of Hamas’ most wanted (by Israel) in Qalqilia last April, visiting the town as the killings were going on and giving a press conference defending them.
Fayyad seems to have been the front man, at least, when the PA banned Israeli settlement goods from the West Bank.
That move is now being fully implemented, and is putting the international BDS movement to shame.
link to maannews.net
link to ynetnews.com
More on Fayyad’s new look; it has the settlers calling the boycott “economic terror” and asking for the “proximity talks” negotiations with the Palestinians be stopped :
Settlements Boycott Campaign Starts In The West Bank, Settlers Outraged
Tuesday May 18, 2010 16:05 by Ghassan Bannoura – PNN
Israeli settlers groups called on the Israeli government to stop proximity talks with the Palestinians due to the settlements products boycott campaign that started today in the West Bank.
The Campaign “House-to-House” was launched by the Palestinian National Pride fund. Hundreds of Palestinian men and women started on early Tuesday morning to go from house to house in all Palestinian communities in the West Bank to raise awareness about the settlements products and encourage people to stop using them. The campaign is endorsed by PM Salam Fayyad and President Mahmoud Abbas.
Palestinian farmers, local made dairy products, and soft drinks industry will be one of the major benefiters of the settlements products campaign.
In total Palestinians consume up to $500 million of settlements products per year, according to Palestinian officials. The products range from nuts to construction materials.
link to imemc.org
It was about time that the Palestinians start using their brains and do something that they have been asking others to do on their behalf.