Harold Bloom’s review of the new Anthony Julius book on Antisemitism in England in the New York Times book Review is a landmark in the increasing absurdity of the whole concept of anti-Semitism.
To conflate classical anti-Semitism, which was based on the notion that Jews could never be a part of gentile society so they needed to convert, get out, or in the most extreme manifestations be eliminated, with criticism of the actions of the Jewish state and their unquestioning defense by supporters of Israel around the world, misses the major shift. The latter is all about asking Israel and its supporters to be full members of international society by abiding by common standards of decency internationally and domestically to recognize that conflating the interests of your country with that of another is likely to cause problems.
In other words, classical anti-Semitism was about making Jews the perpetual “other.” Contemporary critiques of Israel and the Israel lobby are motivated in most cases by wanting Jews not to be the “other.” This is, in my view, a huge change which should not go unrecognized. The fact that it does, demonstrates how far the debate, even among otherwise very smart people, has deteriorated.
Post-modern anti-Semitism is about denying the national rights of the Jewish people. Anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism because it attacks the Jews alone for having aspirations to their own country like every other people on earth. No one questions Poland’s, America’s or India’s right to exist. The attack on the nationhood of a people is reserved exclusively for the Jewish people alone.
Thanks, Norman F, for making my point.
Excellently put NormanF.
Except Israeli Jews don’t have aspirations to their own country like every other people on earth. As you know here in america we do not worry about a demographic threat, at least non racist americans don’t. Anti-Zionism is not a form of anti-Semitism however the claim that it is is used to demonize the ideological enemies of zionism. imagining ethnicities have ‘national rights’ wrt to citizenship to their own country is not practiced anywhere else as far as i know.
“As you know here in america we do not worry about a demographic threat, at least non racist americans don’t.”
That’s a sweeping statement, Annie. A majority of America apparently has a problem with the current demographic trends, and I doubt that most base their views on a belief in the genetic inferiority of superiority of different racial or ethnic groups. My guess is that you don’t live among the newly arrived.
“A majority of America apparently has a problem with the current demographic trends, and I doubt that most base their views on a belief in the genetic inferiority of superiority of different racial or ethnic groups.”
Oh, sure. Like I can’t hear what people say? Their views on the genetic inferiority and superiority are thinly disguised in demographic arguments. Same as you do, all the time.
“Excellently put NormanF. “‘
But oh so wrong.
Pobre Polyphemus,
The Law of Hospitality exists from time immemorial and Israel has never ceased breaking it. You can’t just move people off their land and then restrict access to a special type of one-eyed human. Everybody knows that. You need to give your head a shake.
Israel gives us Jews a bad name.
Even if you want to pretend that criticism of Israel is equivalent to calling for the dissolution of the country, you’re still making a stupefyingly bad argument. In the Middle East alone, you have Kurds, Druze, Assyrians, Turkomen, and so on, none of whom have states, and all of whose nationalist movements have been violently opposed. (Plus, of course, the Palestinians, though I suspect you’d say they’re just undifferentiated Arabs, negating their claim to “people-hood.”)
I don’t know what a “people” is, exactly, but unless you explicitly define a “people” as the population of an existing state — thus creating a circular argument — it is obviously false that “every other people on earth” has their own country, and that only Jews face “attack on the nationhood.”
NormanF,
Did Nazi Germany have a right to exist as Nazi Germany? Did Imperial Japan? What then were the Nuremberg Trials and the trial of Japanese leaders? What was Dresden? What was Rober E Lee’s Virginia?
The national rights of the Jewish people are quite preserved and protected in many a democracy around the world. If the Jews of France, Britain, Canada and the US are one nation, then perhaps they should all move to Israel. You can’t have your cake and eat it too, afterall. Make up your mind already. What a clueless drone.
Jews are not a nation.
“Post-modern anti-Semitism”
“Post-modern anti-Semitism” Rollin, rolling, rolling OTFLMSJAO!!!!
Okay, I’ve frickin’ had it! This is the second time in two weeks that someone on this site has attempted to murder me with laughter!
Post Modern anti-Semitism! Is that like Abstract anti-Semitism, or more like Cubist anti-Semitism? What about good ol’ Realist anti-Semitism? Can we go back in history to the Pre-Raphealite anti-Semitism? I like they way they painted the womens.
Post-Modern anti-Semitism! That’s a good one! Very, very funny, and thanks for the laugh.
Well its important if you want to delegitimize criticism a label of mindless hate and encourage a siege mentality with a sense of victimization
“encourage a siege mentality with a sense of victimization”
If you can’t have that, is life really worth living?
You seem to like the word conflate. Phil will publish any crap as long as it’s anti Israel.
If Israel is held to different standards then other countries because the majority of the population is Jewish then it’s antisemitism.
I tried to work in conflate a few times but it didn’t fit.
If Israel is held to different standards then other countries because the majority of the population is Jewish then it’s antisemitism.
israel is not held to a different standard because most of its population are jewish, it is regarded differently because it denies 1/2 the population it rules over equal rights. because it denies citizenship to 1/2 the people it rules over. because it allows and recognized an exceptional kind of citizenship to its jewish population wrt rights afforded to others.
asking Israel and its supporters to be full members of international society by abiding by common standards
those standards would be treating all people ruled by the regime equal rights. if israel doesn’t want to do that it should stop imposing its rule over people it has no intention of allowing citizenship. end the occupation, do not accuse those who criticizes it’s racist policies of anti semitism, that is absurd.
The world has been held to a different standard since Nuremberg. You want Israel to be the exception?
“If Israel is held to different standards then other countries because the majority of the population is Jewish then it’s antisemitism.”
Yes, you’re right eee. Israel is held to a different standard becasue of fear of anti semtism. Israel is allowed to get away with what other countries are not….becasue of anti semitism.
I think its a reasonable thesis to consider respectfully if modern anti-Zionism is part of a coherent thread from various forms of “classic anti-semitism” which itself morphed forms many times.
I don’t believe that its a conclusion that one can draw except by tracing individuals’ sentiments.
Very few anti-semites are willing to expose the evolution of their values, individually, or accross generations, so its likely not going to be traced.
Just asserted loudly one way, then asserted loudly in reaction, again and again.
witty, I think its a reasonable thesis to consider respectfully if zionists are part of a coherent thread from various forms of “classic racism” which itself morphed forms many times.
I don’t believe that its a conclusion that one can draw except by tracing individuals’ sentiments.
Very few zionists are willing to expose the evolution of their racist values, individually, or across generations, so its likely not going to be traced.
Witty, what exactly is “classic anti-semitism?”
Is it a disease in the DMS? Can you take a pill to make it go away, or at least dull it? How about a lobotomy?
What is a symptom of it? Loving fruit trees?
“Very few anti-semites are willing to expose the evolution of their values, individually,”
Well, maybe not around you, Richard, you being one of those proud, tall fightin’ New Jews and all, you probably scare them, but I have not found anti-Semites to be the least bit reticent about explaining their views and how they got them. And if interviewing the anti-Semite on the street seems a little dicey, there’s a wealth of printed material, from every age.
What the hell are you talking about, Richard?
After all, if you don’t tell people you are an anti-Semite, and why, what good is it?
Desch is blind as a bat and an historical ignoramus. The original antisemitism was not about not letting the Jew be part of gentile society. It was about not letting the Jew, AS A Jew, be part of gentile society. The Catholic church liked Jewish converts to Christianity very much and they had no problem even reaching high positions in the Church hierarchy. Luther became a rabid antisemite after he could not convert the Jews. Many German and European Jews converted and had no problems fitting in with society. D’Israeli and Mendelsson come to mind.
The new antisemitism is very much like the old antisemitism. The new antisemites just like the old ones, want Israel to be non Jewish. Then it can “integrate” with the rest of the world.
It was about not letting the Jew, AS A Jew, be part of gentile society.
Then you should live in the USA, where Jews are perfectly acceptable, in fact, powerful.
I am not complaining about the status of Jews in the US.
But can a Hassidic Jew wear his “cowboy outfit” without being ridiculed in most parts of the US? Would a large percentage of Americans be comfortable transacting business with Jews dressed like that?
“But can a Hassidic Jew wear his “cowboy outfit” without being ridiculed in most parts of the US?”
No more than a woman weqaring a Burqa can.
“Would a large percentage of Americans be comfortable transacting business with Jews dressed like that? ”
There are some Ameircans who still have trouble transacting with blaock people. It’s not about Jews.
I should point out eee that Hassidic Jews are also prone to descrimination and isolation. When I worked in Montreal, our offices were in the midstof a Hassidic Jewish community. I often tried to engage some of them in conversation or help mothers with their strollers etc. and while some were com,municative, others reacted to me with fear and virtually ran away.
Well Shingo, in Israel very few people are uncomfortable interacting with a Hassidic Jew. Which proves my point, Israel is BETTER than the US in letting a Jew integrate AS A JEW. A Hassidic Jew is just as Israeli as me, an atheist Jew.
eee,
But can a Hassidic Jew wear his “cowboy outfit” without being ridiculed in most parts of the US? Would a large percentage of Americans be comfortable transacting business with Jews dressed like that?
Yes, in New York, absolutely. Miami. Chicago. LA. Postville debatable these days. But this has nothing to do with Jewishness. It’s cowboy outfits in general, which would get wide eyes in a lot of places. You are trying to carve Jewishness out from all comment; an unreasonable proposition in the human race.
I just want to add: so now, anti-semitism is sartorial as well?
This just keeps getting stupider and stupider.
Eee, can the Amish or Mormons live free from ridicule in the USA? What is unique about the Jews that they should live as Jews anywhere and never get ridiculed? Ever watch BIG LOVE? You think the Amish never ridicule strangers?
They do, but nobody gives them F-16s and WP to make their point.
MRW, don’t you realize that Postville IA is a NAZI camp?
Excuse me for barging in here, but I doubt that “eee” has ever been to Israel or if he has he has never ventured into Jerusalem where the hassidim or haredi or “black hats.” as they are referred to, hate the secular Jews who in turn are disgusted by the haredi who want to run their lives under the Jewish equivalent of sharia law.
The haredi/hassidim routinely trash bus stops that show a woman in a bathing suit (and they do it outside of Jerusalem as well), and they will stone any woman they say that walks through their neighborhoods showing any skin below the waste, or any car that has the nerve to drive through their neighborhoods on a Saturday. Of course, all their women keep their heads covered.
They do not recognize any sect other than their own as having any humanity, let along legitimacy, and the words they call each other would be labeled anti-semitic were they spoken by non-Jews and this is true of those who live in New York, as well.
They are principally anti-zionist, since the Jewish state was only to come with the advent of the Messiah, but with the exception of Neturei Karta, a distinct minority, they are only too willing to take money both from the state of Israel and from the US government. Leading members of the haredi community have been caught running a number of scams on the government in order to get grants to which they are not entitled, seeing Washington or Albany, only as a cash cow to be milked and to which they have no sense of loyalty. That these escapades along with the reports of child molestation on the part of some of their leading rabbis have been kept out of the mainstream press, or covered only as local news is a tribute to their political power as a voting bloc in key sections of NY and LA.
What I have described in Israel I have seen for myself and what I describe here can be found in the noxious pages of the Jewish Press, which bills itself as the largest independent Jewish newspaper.It used to run columns by Rabbi Meir Kahane and the equally racist mayor, Ed Koch, it praised the Hebron mass murderer, Baruch Goldstein and even rationalized the murder of Yitzhak Rabin who it has deemed a traitor. Here’s the URL:
link to jewishpress.com
For a quite a different and a refreshing view I recommend the weekly Forward, which is the only Jewish paper which not only tells the truth about the haredi/hassidim, but also frequently runs articles critical of Israeli policies and even, occasionally of AIPAC and the ADL: http://www.forward.com
The paper edition to which I have subscribed since it first came out more than 20 years ago occasionally carried a comic strip by one of the nation’s premier comic artists, Eli Valley, that could not be published in ANY other paper and who spares nothing and no one in the Jewish community, here or in Israel, from his wit: link to evcomics.com
Blankfort,
You are one sick individual painting all the Haredim with one thick brush. You know that there are Haredim that serve in the IDF?
link to kokhavivpublications.com
I have had business interactions with quite a few and they do not think other Israelis are not human. Of course there rotten apples in their society like in any society. There are radicals like neturei karta but most are pragmatists and are de-facto zionists.
Do I find their ideology to my liking? No. Do I accept them for what they are? Yes.
Oh gosh, yes, how extraordinarily radical, Jews actually native to Palestine who opposed the colonial takeover by European Jews.
“Eee, can the Amish or Mormons live free from ridicule…”
The Amish get a pass, but the Mormons? No way! I’d rather be stoned than peep-stoned, baby!
This coming from a Wikipedia sponge?
Julian provides another example of how the whole debate has been debauched. It is an incontrovertible fact that many Israelis and supporters of Israel abroad argue that Israel is exceptional in some respect (democracy, moral behavior, historical claims, etc.) and ought to thereby be accorded exceptional status (preferential U.S. support, potential membership in the EU, exclusion from restraints placed on other states in the region [e.g., nuclear weapons], etc.). If a state and its proponents makes such claims, it is highly likely to be assessed by a different standard than any other state. It can be true that Israel, despite its flaws, is a much better state than many of its neighbors. It doesn’t follow, however, that saying Israel is better than Syria entitles it to such extraordinary treatment. Conversely, holding Israel to the (presumably) higher standards of civilized society is not antisemitic. Nor is it antisemetic to point out that the Jew’s national claims, while legitimate and indeed historically justifiable, conflict in their concrete manifestation in Israel/Palestine with the legitimate national aspirations of another people as well. At some point, the A(antisemitism)-bomb has become a dud when continually dropped in this fashion as it has been here.
I really can’t imagine how a state like Israel with its brutal military occupation, apartheid, jim crow laws, and blockade of the Gaza strip is a much better state than Syria or any of its other neighbors.
About the only thing better in Israel is its system of Democracy and even then its a Democracy for less than half the population under its domain, at least Lebanon allows a far greater percentage of its population to participate in its quasi-democracy.
Other than that Israel has all the other problems of its neighbors including:
1) Media censorship
2) Secret police
3) Jailing without due process
4) Torture
5) Militarization of society that shits on all the Arab countries combined.
etc
Ask any Arab Israeli whether he would like to live in Israel or Syria, and you will understand the difference.
Israel has none of the problems of its neighbors. You are trying to make the argument that since the US treats Iraqis badly, the US is like Iraq. The Palestinians in the West Bank are under occupation, they are not Israeli citizens.
The Palestinians in the West Bank are under occupation, they are not Israeli citizens.
i totally get you would like us to reference and consider israel sans its deplorable unjust occupation. hey i will be the first one to agree being an israeli citizen is not so bad. the problem here is you are ignoring the portions of bradley’s statement that don’t conform to your narrative. take a look:
its a Democracy for less than half the population under its domain
referencing 1/2 the people and claiming they are 100% of the topic is disingenuous. you do not have to tell us Palestinians in the WB are under occupation and not Israeli citizens, you need to justify why israel demands control of them and you can’t, not unless you want to expose the inequity.
Ask any Arab Israeli whether he would like to live in Israel or Syria, and you will understand the difference.
Most Israeli Arabs would prefer to live in Israel because its their home, and the land where their ancestors have dwelt for hundreds if not thousands of years.
They are Palestinian, not Syrian, hence why they would prefer to stay in Palestine.
It’s kind of like asking any American Jew if they’d prefer to live in the US or Iceland.
Why would anyone want to live in a country that oppressed them, treated them as second class citizens or threatened to expel them every now and then. I’m talking about Israel, of course. Besides, why the heck would you ask them to leave their place of birth? Did anyone force you to immigrate to Israel?
That is not to say that Iceland treats any of its minorities like Israel does. It was merely a point regarding one’s country of birth.
Here’s one Jew’s thoughts on living in Iceland:
link to icelandreview.com
On Jews, Germans, and Icelanders–should Germans be free to read Mein Kampf? Or should the infamous dozen years of the whole of German history remain outsourced?
k-broder.de/html/tb_dull.html
Oops, here’s the full link:
link to henryk-broder.de
“Ask any Arab Israeli whether he would like to live in Israel or Syria, and you will understand the difference.”
Why fon’y you ask why the Jews in Yemen would rather live I’m zn impoverished country like Yemen than move to Israel, or why the 25,000 Jews who live in Iran refused bribes to leave Iranandive to Israel.
Israel must be a seriously crappy place.
Shingo, are you aware that the number of Jews in Iran is only a small fraction of Persian Jewry. Most left decades ago. Saying that Iran has 25k Jews is nothing to highlight when there used to be many more Jews there. Same thing with Yemeni Jews.
Michael,
Yes I am aware that the number of Jews in Iran is only a small fraction of Persian Jewry. Most left during the 1979 Revolution, at which point the population went from 100,000 to 10,000. None were killed. NONE!
Since then it has more than doubled to 25,000 and all 25,000 have told Israel to take their beibery money and shove it, becasue they have no desire to leave Iran.
When Nick Cohen of the NYT visited Iran, he reported that as a Jew, he felt more welcome in Iran than any other country in the world. Predictably he was attacked by Zionists for not sticking to the approved anti Iranian script.
The fact that Jews in Iran and Yemen refuse to accept Israel’s offer to migrate speaks poorly for what Israel has to offer.
In other words, it’s just another shitty little Levanitne country
“I really can’t imagine how a state like Israel with its brutal military occupation, apartheid, jim crow laws, and blockade of the Gaza strip is a much better state than Syria or any of its other neighbors.”
You ever tried to get a decent sour-cream and blueberry blintz in Syria?
Or an egg cream? They don’t even have Dr. Browns celery tonic! Savages!
It was shocking that a guy like Harold Bloom would fall into this. Neither he nor commenters above seem able to recognize a distinction between acknowledging the national rights of Israel and not according it the right to trample any international law it wants. About Bloom at least, I’m surprised.
Yeah, right. All countries treat international law according to their interests. China and Russia trample international law at will as well as the US and Europe on occasion. But which country is singled out for condemnation and inquiry? Israel. This is not the two wrongs make a right argument. This is the argument that Israel treats international law like any other country, according to its interests. Just in the case of Israel this is not ok.
Yea, and China and Russia get called out on their human rights abuses as well.
But when Israel gets called out you back into the “don’t single out Israel” argument, even though Israel is hardly singled out.
The difference is that you can’t handle the heat.
“Yea, and China and Russia get called out on their human rights abuses as well.”
Are you joking? Was there international inquiry into Russian action in Chechnya? Was there ANY UN condemnation for Russia? Same goes for China and Tibet.
Who was the last dissident to go to Chechnya to protect its people? What NGOs operate in Tibet or Chechnya?
>> Are you joking? Was there international inquiry into Russian action in Chechnya? Was there ANY UN condemnation for Russia? Same goes for China and Tibet.
>> Who was the last dissident to go to Chechnya to protect its people? What NGOs operate in Tibet or Chechnya?
Glad to see that you’ve finally left the Native Americans behind and have arrived in the 21st Century. Not that it changes anything, of course: You’re still using the crimes of others to justify the crimes of your own government.
>> Was there ANY UN condemnation for Russia? Same goes for China and Tibet.
I notice that you conveniently omitted Iraq and Afghanistan. Not only was there condemnation, there was invasion, occupation, regime change and, for the leader of Iraq, execution. Perhaps, instead of pressure levied against Israel to reform its criminal ways, you’d prefer to be lumped in with Iraq and Afghanistan and have reform imposed upon you.
“Was there ANY UN condemnation for Russia? Same goes for China and Tibet.”
Three words for you: Security Concil Veto
That did not stop some efforts to be made:
link to actfortibet.org
link to news.bbc.co.uk
eljay,
You keep missing the point. ALL countries abide by international law if it helps their interests, otherwise they don’t. That is the standard worldwide. Israel should not be held to another standard.
“Perhaps, instead of pressure levied against Israel to reform its criminal ways, you’d prefer to be lumped in with Iraq and Afghanistan and have reform imposed upon you.”
You are welcome to try this method. Don’t complain about the results.
>> You keep missing the point. ALL countries abide by international law if it helps their interests, otherwise they don’t. That is the standard worldwide. Israel should not be held to another standard.
You’re missing the point: All countries should abide by international law PERIOD. Israel is being held to that standard. The fact that other countries fall short of that standard – and they are condemned for their failures – is not a reason to excuse Israel’s behaviour.
>> You are welcome to try this method. Don’t complain about the results.
Unlike you, I have no desire to attack, destroy, kill, occupy or subjugate anyone or anything.
Eljay,
If ALL countries should abide by international law, then let’s start with the US, China and Russia. The fact that you don’t start with these countries who are the world trend setters makes you very suspect. By not going after them you are proving my point that international law is just a weapon against Israel, and not a principle the whole world abides by.
>> If ALL countries should abide by international law, then let’s start with the US, China and Russia.
There are many forum sites where the policies and actions of the U.S. China and Russia are discussed and, as appropraite, condemned. If you want to bitch about those countries, do so on one of those sites.
This forum site – as has been pointed out to you on several occasions – is a place for discussion and, as appropriate, condemnation of Israel’s policies and actions.
The crimes of other nations do not exist as justification for, or absolution of, Israel’s crimes.
Eee, you are like more than a few japanese citizens of Japan; you close your eyes to history when it comes to the Palestinians. Fine, read this despite the fact it does not involve Jews:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Eee, abide by international rules developed as a result of WW2, or face international isolation. It will be a lot harder for Israel to face isolation than the USA, but in case you have not noticed, the USA
is in deep financial trouble–it’s freebees to even more rogue Israel is getting more and more notice.
” ….. ALL countries abide by international law if it helps their interests, otherwise they don’t … ”
Gosh, all of them, trippy? The whole world’s an outlaw. Certainly sums up settler Israel.
“There are many forum sites where the policies and actions of the U.S. China and Russia are discussed and, as appropraite, condemned. If you want to bitch about those countries, do so on one of those sites.”
Where is the call to BDS those countries?
Tell us, eee, you object so vehemently to US war crimes… what have you done in Israel to forward a boycott movement against us, yourself? Surely, if you believe the notions you’ve forwarded, you must have taken concrete steps to rally your fellow Israelis to boycott the United States, right?
>> Where is the call to BDS those countries?
You seem to have serious comprehension issues.
If you want to read about calls to BDS the US, China and Russia, go to the forum sites that discuss the policies and actions of those countries. If no one has posted calls for BDS on those sites, then you will be in the right place to do so.
On this forum site, the discussion is about the actions and policies of Israel, not the US (other than to the extent to which they affect / are affected by Israel), China and Russia.
If you were on a forum site condemning the policies and actions of Uzbekistan, you would probably find it completely stupid if some Uzbekistani were to say, “Why are people bludgeoning Uzbekistan? Where are the calls for BDS of Israel?” That is exactly how stupid you sound when you do the same thing on this forum site.
Regarding my earlier example directed at eee, I would like to tone down the wording to:
>> That is exactly how
stupidridiculous you sound when you do the same thing on this forum site.The original wording was un-necessarily harsh, and there’s far too much of that harshness already on this site.
“these countries who are the world trend setters”
You don’t welcome the trend-setting overlords?
“About Bloom at least, I’m surprised.”
I’m not. Not that I knew anything much about Bloom, but there’s nothing unusual about literary intellectuals being bigots. As Bloom pointed out, they used to be anti-semitic bigots and now they’re sometimes anti-Muslim bigots. (Martin Amis comes to mind–hey, I wonder why Bloom made no mention of this prominent British author whose bigotry made headline news a couple of years ago? Oh, wait, he was anti-Muslim.)
“Anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism because it attacks the Jews alone for having aspirations to their own country like every other people on earth.”
You’re asserting that American Jews, the ones who don’t claim Israel as theirs, don’t have a country? French? British? Canadian? Danish?
Here are a few scenarios I’d like you to consider:
As you well knonw, Druids, or Wiccans, don’t have a state of their own. Suppose American members of the Druid religion claimed Wales, which was, of course, pagan 2000 years ago, and these Druids moved to Wales, established settlements and political institutions that excluded the Welsh especially the Christian, Jewish and Muslim Welsh, formed militias that attacked and slaughtered people in Welsh villages or forced them out at gunpoint, across the border into England. Would you assert that it’s the Druids’ right to “have a country of their own” under those circumstances?
Suppose the Zoroastrians who also lack a country, decided to claim Iran which was, of course, Zoroastrian a couple thousand years ago. Well, of course not all Zoroastrians live in Iran, suppose it was the Iraqi and Syrian Zoroastrians who made this decision, and moved to Iran, form militias, and after gaining strength began attacking Muslims, Jews and Christians in Iran, forcing them out of the country at gunpoint and massacring and terrorizing them. Would you support Zoroastrian aspirations to have a country of their own under those circumstances?
Or lets take a case that isn’t exactly hypothetical. Suppose the German Aryans decided they wanted a state of their own. Suppose that, believing that non-Aryans were too embedded in the ruling class of Germany, hence, their state wasn’t really German Aryan, they began terrorizing minorities, forcing them to leave or risk death. Would you support German Aryan aspirations to have a state of their own under such circumstances?
stop making sense.
Since 150 states recognize Israel, what is your point? Israel is a fact on the ground. You are welcome to try to remove us, that is your right. But we will certainly defend ourselves.
No ones trying to remove you.
We’re just asking that you grant equal rights to the other 50% of the people that currently live under Israeli jurisdiction.
Do you accept a Jewish state in the middle east?
If yes, you are not trying to remove me.
If no, you are.
it is amusing you are asking us that when you refused to address lyn117′s comment. anti zionists don’t accept the premise of citizenship based on ethnicity and apparently you do. i can accept a state of israel in the middle east if it is a democrat state and rules over all the people equally no matter what ethnicity they are. can you?
If Israel returns unilaterally to the 67 borders, will you accept the state of Israel then?
Its to bad Israel does not accept the 67 borders as a basis for a full and just peace.
Fatah is trying to negotiate a peace based on the 67 borders as we speak but is continually rebuffed by the Israelis.
Hamas accepted the 67 borders as a basis for a full peace, but is completely ignored by the Israelis.
Israel is the only belligerent party that continues to kill Palestinians in occupied territory, build settlements in occupied territory, and continues to colonize areas that are supposed to be part of this future Palestinian state.
How can you even talk about the 67 borders when Israel is doing everything it possibly can to sabotage such a reality?
I don’t mind you having a “Jewish State” so long as that state does not trample upon the rights of the indigenous people.
What does that mean smart ass?
If you insist on the right of return you are negating the Jewish state.
And by the way, I was born in Israel as were my parents. That makes me indigenous.
So let me get this straight. Your grandparents had a “right of return” merely because they were Jewish, and then they proceeded to brutalize the natives, and now you insist that you have the right to bar the return of whole families who have histories on that land dating back for generations?
Are you insisting that the Jewish state CANNOT exist without ethnic cleansing?
The very essence of the concept of a”Jewish state” is racist, ethnocentric. A state is for all its citizens or no state!
“No ones trying to remove you.”
I don’t know, James. I think “eee” is making a very good case that Israel can only exist is it is allowed to to be Jewish supremacist, expansionist, and free of all restraint.
And both Witty and “eee” have told us more than once that if Israel is not allowed to do that, the Israelis will destroy Israel themselves! I think it was supposed to be some kind of threat.
As Ran HaCohen emphasises, a great part of the Israeli army including officers are settlers. So, as “eee” and Witty constantly remind us, any change in that situation threatens them and their families.
And of course, that whole illegal settlement thing is a Jewish religious obligation. It’s anti-Semitic to oppose it.
So you tell me if Israel will change, or be dismantled. Frankly, I agree with “eee” and Witty: I don’t think Israel can run any other way. It would be unprofitable, and they will close it down.
Pick any number of tribes, ethnic groups or nations around the world that do not – and will likely never – have a sovereign state. In contested lands, either one side emerges victorious, or, more often, a composite identity is formed. Look at contemporary UK or the USA.
If you are so passionate about making the Jews one of the exceptional groups that get their sovereign state, why does you compassion not to extend to the other half of the population that are being asked to forfeit their rights so you can have yours.
At least one the responders here has accused me of anti-semitism and used that as one of his justifications for a Jewish state. For the record, I’m as Jewish as they come and I hate seeing Israel burrow its way into the pariah club of the world. Is that living out Herzl’s vision?
Wake up and smell the coffee.
You can’t get away with this stuff any more. The younger American Jews are not buying it.
If the younger American Jews do not want to support Israel, no one is making them. Not many American Jews supported Israel actively before 67 and it is quite alright that just a few will do so in the future. The liberal Jews are a disappearing society and the more they disassociate themselves from Israel, the faster they will disappear. They are only two ways a person in the US can be Jewish, being an Israel supporter or being a religious Jew. The liberal Jews who disown Israel are sawing off one of the branches they are sitting on. Since the other branch that supports them is very thin…
The Jews already have their state, and we are not going to give it up without a hell of a fight.
Well, you could show a bit more gratitude.
Who are you that I owe you anything?
If an American Jew thinks he is doing Israel a favor by supporting it, then he shouldn’t support Israel. It should only be a two way street. He should only support Israel because he or she feels that Israel’s existence if also good for him or out of love and a sense of belonging.
eee
There is less and less of Israel that is authentically Jewish: the preference of learning over the sword, the pursuit of justice, accepting the stranger as equal to the Jew and other core Jewish values are absent from your Israel.
Authentic Judaism is till alive in small pockets in Israel, but more and more, outside of Israel.
The love of your Israel won’t halt the course of assimilation, but it can sure weaken American Jewry.
The tone of your posting is a sneer at American Jews. You couldn’t care less about them – if they don’t serve your wants.
Elliot,
Who are you to define what Judaism is? You are quite arrogant.
Furthermore, your views of Israel are completely distorted. Israelis do not enjoy going to the army. We would much rather go directly to university. However, we learned the hard way that dead people don’t learn. Which university or yeshiva did the 1.5 million Jewish children that died in the holocaust attend? Excuse us for wanting to be alive.
I do not sneer at all at American Jews. You do not understand my point. Being a Jew is being tribal in some sense. It means giving to Jewish charities before other charities. It does not mean that you do not give to non-Jewish charities, but it means that you have a special interest in a specific community. Once some American Jews reject this view and espouses “universalism”, I do not understand what keeps them Jewish.
3e –
I have my view of Judaism. Judaism in the Bible prefers learning to the sword (Jacob vs. Esau), the love of justice is a refrain in the Prophets and accepting the ger (the stranger) as the Jew is all over the Torah. If you disagree, debate.
You proclaimed your definition of anti-semitism against most of the people on this list and in your next breath you accuse others of arrogance.
The pot is calling us all black.
3e -
I’ll take your last point at face value. The debate between particularism and universalism in its current form is as old as modernity. Assimilation of Jews into the Gentile world is as old as Judaism. It’s a concern going back all the way to the Torah which means they dealt with the same problem.
Certainly, your argument: “universalism ergo assimilation” is historically incorrect. As for the future, neither of has a crystal ball.
In other words, the real issue is only what are our values right now? For you, this means celebrating your own particularism at the expense of another people’s suffering.
That’s not particularly Jewish and certainly not sustainable in the long run.
Elliot,
Your view of Judaism is one view and you are welcome to it. It is of course a naive simplification in my opinoin. What is arrogant is you saying that Israel does not display Jewish values. You are smarter than 6 million Israeli Jews?
And yes, regarding antisemitism, it is the Jews that get to define what it is, just as African Americans get to decide regarding racism in the US.
C’mon. You can do better than that.
Yes. But yet again your are dishonest. I am Jewish yet you presume that your sense of Jewishness gets to disqualify mine and then you immediately turn around and accuse me of arrogance.
Your only way of communicating outside your bubble is through hostility. Who will you and your buddies talk to when that stops working?
You are a hypocrite. If you don’t see it for yourself, hire somebody else to teach you.
eee,
Ladies and Gentlemen, behold the irony of ironies.
That’s quite the lecture coming from someone who claimed that Phil, Amira Hass and Goldstone were not real Jews.
What a sad idiot you are.
Elliot,
What you view as hostility is simply directness.
When I said that the Jews get to define antisemitism, how did I exclude you in any way if you define yourself a Jew? I don’t understand why you accuse me of hypocrisy.
But, you have to respect the decision of the majority and of course take into account the views of Jews in Israel. Otherwise, you are more than welcome to denounce your Judaism.
And by the way, “universalism ergo assimilation”, is quite true historically. Universalism is against religion and nationalism, the two pillars of todays Judaism.
Avi,
You are a liar and quite demented. I asked Phil why he thinks he is Jewish. Since he is not religious and a anti-Zionist, I would like to know what makes him a Jew.
I said nothing about Goldstone’s and Hass’ Jewishness.
” Universalism is against religion and nationalism, the two pillars of todays Judaism.”
False. If nationalism was a pillar of Judsism, them there would not be more Jews in the diaspora refusing to live in Israel.
Yes I noticed that. First eee gets to radically redefine Jews thusly:
They are only two ways a person in the US can be Jewish, being an Israel supporter or being a religious Jew.
And then has the extreme cognitive dissonance to utter:
Who are you to define what Judaism is? You are quite arrogant.
This is where Zionism as an ideology leads. Its just like white supremacy. It purports to care deeply about Jews (or whites, in the case of white supremacy) but when push comes to shove it will gleefully push those Jews that disagree with it under the bus. It doesn’t care about Jews. It cares only about maintaining a sense of privilege and superiority for its adherents and anyone who threatens that is fair game, regardless of who they are. It will eat its own.
eee,
I admire your pugnacious spirit. And I mean this as a compliment! You truly represent Israeli grit and determination. Kol Hakavod! You are fending off attacks from all sides! Don’t let the bastards get you down! How about this Citizen dude and his ridiculous WW2 analogies. What a jackass! Methinks he is quite meshouga.
C’mon Rachel, you know this crowd eats up the WWII analogies, it make’s their arguments more convincing by at least ten fold.
Tree,
Well then, in what sense is a non-religious Jew that is also an anti-zionist a Jew? What makes him different than a previously Christian atheist that is also a anti-Zionist?
“False. If nationalism was a pillar of Judsism, them there would not be more Jews in the diaspora refusing to live in Israel.”
Nationalism is the pillar that allows non-religious Jews to be Jews. Secular Jews in the diaspora disappear quickly. What ties can they have to the Jewish community unless it is through support of Israel?
“Nationalism is the pillar that allows non-religious Jews to be Jews. ”
Like I said, if that were true, you wouldn’thave a greater Jewish population in the diaspora who refuse to live in Israel.
Ties to Jewish communities have little or nothing to do eith Israel. One can be birn to a non religious family and not support Israel. In fact, that number is growing.
“Well then, in what sense is a non-religious Jew that is also an anti-zionist a Jew?”
What business is it if yours what another Jew thinks? How is it that in a culture that is renowned for diversity of ideas, Zionist fascists like yourself insist there is no room for dissent on the question of Israel?
Personally, I don’t define anyone as a Jew except those who are adherents to Judaism. Therefore, by my definition, neither you nor I nor any atheist is a Jew. Its a contradiction is terms. The first and foremost belief of Judaism is a belief in God. An atheist does not believe in God.
I do acknowledge that some people self-identify as Jews because of their ethnic heritage and I have no real problems with them self-identifying as such, but, really, the idea that a Jew MUST support Israel or he/she is not a “real Jew” is simply an anti-semitic stereotype.
What makes a atheistic “Jewish” Zionist different from any other atheistic Zionist? Nothing. Except that it provides the “Jewish” Zionist with an excuse to claim superior privileges in Israel.
Clues for the clueless:
First you say to Elliot:
They are only two ways a person in the US can be Jewish, being an Israel supporter or being a religious Jew.
And then you wonder:
When I said that the Jews get to define antisemitism, how did I exclude you in any way if you define yourself a Jew? I don’t understand why you accuse me of hypocrisy.
Think about it. Its really not that hard to figure out.
“That’s quite the lecture coming from someone…”
who constantly reminds us he is an “atheist Jew”.
“The first and foremost belief of Judaism is a belief in God.”
You have got to be kidding! Look, can you see God? Can you touch Him? Well, pal, I got a bottle of real Israeli sand here (my Mom brought it back from Israel years ago), real Jewish sand, you can touch it and see it. It’s more real than God.
“You truly represent Israeli grit and determination.”
So in Isreali Hebrew “grit” means passive-agressive self pity, and “determination” means bigotry? And there’s today’s Israeli-Hebrew language lesson!
And I agree with you about those ridiculous WW2 analogies! Quel (Yiddish for “mass”) stupid! I mean c’mon, next somebody will bring up that ridiculous “Holacaust” thingy. Goddammit, a country has the right to self-determine itself, and only obey any laws when it is in their interest. “eee” says so!
And everything the Germans did was legal, byt their self-self-determined laws! Enough with the WW2 analogies! I say we never mention WW2 again!
>> The Jews already have their state, and we are not going to give it up without a hell of a fight.
And, what, you expect a pat on the back for your attitude? You shit on the Palestinians – whose land Israel keeps stealing and whose lives and livelihoods Israel keeps destroying – for putting up a fight to keep what is theirs, but when Israel does it it’s something noble, something brave, something to be admired. What a joke(r).
Yeah, the Germans put up a good fight too for their state–they fielded arguably the best army the world has ever seen in WW2, and they were not short of pure ethnic idealists. Who defeated them? Ike?
Gee, you may recall he was of German ethnic heritage. And a whole lot of German Americans fought with him. Similarly, nobody and no state owns all the Jews. The 21st Century does not like ethnic chauvinism. It actually takes Auschwitz seriously. Eee dishonors
the fate of the actual Shoah victims. Eee is a subscriber to Hitler’s last political will and testament. Keep it up. Samson did fall, along with many others. The survivors are here. Israel is the size of NJ.
I don’t expect anything. I am reporting a fact you will just have to learn to live with.
Citizen,
You are an antisemitic bigot and an Aryan Brotherhood filthy asshole. The fact of the matter is that your state does not fight us, it sends us 3 billion per year. So if somebody is dishonoring anything it is the US that is doing the dishonoring.
“The 21st Century does not like ethnic chauvinism.”
Who is the 21st century? Is it that Walloons and Flemish in Belgium that want separate states? Or the Czechs and Slovaks that decided to break up Czechoslovakia into two ethnic states? Or was it perhaps all the ethnic states that fell out of Yugoslavia?
You are so full of shit.
“Citizen,
You are an antisemitic bigot and an Aryan Brotherhood filthy asshole.”
Reported…And so should all be doing..Enough is enough from this crude fascistic character.
Report him? Why? “eee”, yonira, Witty, and Julian are the best friends, the best advertisement anti-Zionism ever had! Long may their farshstunkener words resound!
Perish the though of banning them! Especially “eee”. I’m sure he has convinced more people there is something very wrong with Zionism than I ever have.
The Harold Bloom critique brought out the league-leading stars of hasbara: eee, (rookie-of-the-year) NormanF, Julian AND Witty.
Wow, I used to respect Harold Bloom. The review is so jam-packed with intellectual dishonesty and shocking cognitive dissonance, it’s stunning. I gotta ask e3 and NormF: I mean, really? If I criticize you for standing with the IDF for dropping white phosphorus on the infants of Gaza, do you really believe I’m anti-Semitic?
And if your answer is yes, then, if I drive my kids to Hebrew school every weekend to study for their bar mitzvahs, does that change your answer?
And if not, am I a self-hating Gentile?
Man, you guys got to man-up and get with the program. You want to be part of the community of nations — you want to be a light unto nations — do you really not get this, or are you just super-confident you can mindf–k the rest of the world with toxic hasbara because you’re the smartest guys in the room?
Oscar,
If you criticize Israel because you want it to be a better Jewish state, then you are not antisemitic. But if you criticize Israel in order to bring to an end the Jewish state, you are an antisemite. And it does not matter if you are a Jew or not.
At least you confessed to being an antisemite eee, thanks for the honesty.
Back in the day, if you criticized the Hitler Regime, would you be ipso facto anti-German? And if you criticized Jim Crow, would you have been unAmerican? Glad to see eee thinks he can read others’ minds as to what movtivates them. Gee, didn’t Hitler claim the same talent? He actually wrote a book about it, yes? OK, eee, we are waiting for the truth, for your very own Meine Kampf. Tell us about those idealistic days of your youth when you set out to be a great artist but you were set upon by those–others.
If I criticize Israel because it doesn’t want to allow the creation of an ethnic-defined state for the Palestinian people upon a LARGE chunk of the territory with which they have been associated by 500 (at least) years of recent history, how can it defend itself when it is demanding the right to something much more obscure — a state for a “people” defined (as far as I can see) only by having been mistreated in many (but not in all) places around the world, no genetic similarity, no same language, no same place of birth (all these being the opposite with the Palestinians), and not even the same religion (the early Zionists being mostly irreligious, as I am).
In short (I have a lot of trouble with “short”)–why are not the Palestinians entitled to 1/2 of Mandatory Palestine and the water that goes with it as their homeland (under the rules of self-determination) when they’ve been living in Palestine since 1500 IF Israeli Jews (who’ve mostly been living there only since 1930) are entitled to any part of Palestine at all?
“Fair is fair” or “fair is not fair”, which is it, and why?
“But if you criticize Israel in order to bring to an end the Jewish state, you are an antisemite. ”
In that case, being an anti-semite is honourable.
“And if your answer is yes, then, if I drive my kids to Hebrew school every weekend to study for their bar mitzvahs, does that change your answer?”
Don’t try and bullshit us Zionists, Jewperson! There’s only one question for Jew in this world: What have you done for Israel, lately?
How much you putting in the Blue Box? And if you can’t see the boxcars from your condo, then budya you need your eyelids circumcised!
While I agree with the idea that there is a huge difference between antisemtism and critics of Israel’s policies, this does not mean that the classical antisemitism has disappeared. Besides, while it has been overused as an argument to deny the legitimacy of any critics, there are antisemites who will try to hide between the critics of Israel, saying that “If Israel and its supporters are not members of the international society because they do not abide by common standards of decency” it “proves” that “Jews cannot be members of the international society” and therefore legitimate their desire to restart the slaughter.
The existence unwanted bedfellows (antisemites masquerading as “critics of Israel”, who mirror the crowd of the anti-arabic racists who claim to be “simply friends of Israel”) remain a problematic matter.
” this does not mean that the classical antisemitism has disappeared.”
You just won’t be satisfied til everybody in the orchestra, and all of the solists, are Jewish. As far as I know, classical anti-Semitism is not a problem. For God’s sake, look at Leonard Bernstein!
You know, I’m not even jewish, so why would I be satisfied if “til everybody in the orchestra, and all of the solists, are Jewish”?
Anyway, classical antisemitism is a problem, even if you look only at the israelo-palestinian conflict: as I said, you do not want to have them as your bedfellows: antisemites exist (a well known fact), and some of them have tried to masquerade as pro-palestinians (another well known fact).
While the Likud & cie apologists have claimed that every pro-palestinian is an antisemite, which is a repulsive lie, those two facts have helped such a lie to appear legitimate, which is the reason why keeping the antisemites outside of any pro-palestinian initiative is vital.
lyn117, post#26, all your lies were rebuked in this article.
link to middleeastfacts.com
Myth Of The Palestinian People
Yehezkel Bin-Nun
December 26, 2001
“Palestinians doubt Blair can deliver,” announces the BBC. “Four Palestinians die in West Bank,” reports CNN. “IDF demolishes building used by Palestinian gunmen,” announces Israel’s government run Channel 1 News. The modern media is filled with stories about the Palestinians, their plight, their dilemmas and their struggles. All aspects of their lives seem to have been put under the microscope.
Only one question never seems to be addressed: Who are the Palestinians? Who are these people who claim the Holy Land as their own? What is their history? Where did they come from? How did they arrive in the country they call Palestine? Now that both US President George Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (in direct opposition to the platform he was elected on) have come out in favor of a Palestinian state, it would be prudent to seek answers to these questions. For all we know, Palestine could be as real as Disneyland.
The general impression given in the media is that Palestinians have lived in the Holy Land for hundreds, if not thousands of years. No wonder, then, that a recent poll of French citizens shows that the majority believe (falsely) that prior to the establishment of the State of Israel an independent Arab Palestinian state existed in its place.
Yet curiously, when it comes to giving the history of this “ancient” people most news outlets find it harder to go back more than the early nineteen hundreds. CNN, an agency which has devoted countless hours of airtime to the “plight” of the Palestinians, has a website which features a special section on the Middle East conflict called “Struggle For Peace”. It includes a promising sounding section entitled “Lands Through The Ages” which assures us it will detail the history of the region using maps. Strangely, it turns out, the maps displayed start no earlier than the ancient date of 1917. The CBS News website has a background section called “A Struggle For Middle East Peace.” Its history timeline starts no earlier than 1897. The NBC News background section called ”Searching for Peace” has a timeline which starts in 1916. BBC’s timeline starts in 1948.
Yet, the clincher must certainly be the Palestinian National Authority’s own website. While it is top heavy on such phrases as “Israeli occupation” and “Israeli human rights violations” the site offers practically nothing on the history of the so-called Palestinian people. The only article on the site with any historical content is called “Palestinian History – 20th Century Milestones” which seems only to confirm that prior to 1900 there was no such concept as the Palestinian People.
While the modern media maybe short on information about the history of the “Palestinian people” the historical record is not. Books, such as Battleground by Samuel Katz and From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters long ago detailed the history of the region. Far from being settled by Palestinians for hundreds, if not thousands of years, the Land of Israel, according to dozens of visitors to the land, was, until the beginning of the last century, practically empty.
Alphonse de Lamartine visited the land in 1835. In his book, Recollections of the East, he writes “Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw no living object, heard no living sound….” None other than the famous American author Mark Twain, who visited the Land of Israel in 1867, confirms this. In his book Innocents Abroad he writes, “A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tabor safely…. We never saw a human being on the whole journey.” Even the British Consul in Palestine reported, in 1857, “The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population…”
In fact, according to official Ottoman Turk census figures of 1882, in the entire Land of Israel, there were only 141,000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab. This number was to skyrocket to 650,000 Arabs by 1922, a 450% increase in only 40 years. By 1938 that number would become over 1 million or an 800% increase in only 56 years. Population growth was especially high in areas where Jews lived. Where did all these Arabs come from? According to the Arabs the huge increase in their numbers was due to natural childbirth.
In 1944, for example, they alleged that the natural increase (births minus deaths) of Arabs in the Land of Israel was the astounding figure of 334 per 1000. That would make it roughly three times the corresponding rate for the same year of Lebanon and Syria and almost four times that of Egypt, considered amongst the highest in the world. Unlikely, to say the least. If the massive increase was not due to natural births, then were did all these Arabs come from?
All the evidence points to the neighboring Arab states of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. In 1922 the British Governor of the Sinai noted that “illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria.” In 1930, the British Mandate -sponsored Hope-Simpson Report noted that “unemployment lists are being swollen by immigrants from Trans-Jordania” and “illicit immigration through Syria and across the northern frontier of Palestine is material.” The Arabs themselves bare witness to this trend.
For example, the governor of the Syrian district of Hauran, Tewfik Bey el Hurani, admitted in 1934 that in a single period of only a few months over 30,000 Syrians from Hauran had moved to the Land of Israel. Even British Prime Minister Winston Churchill noted the Arab influx. Churchill, a veteran of the early years of the British mandate in the Land of Israel, noted in 1939 that “far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied.”
Far from displacing the Arabs, as they claimed, the Jews were the very reason the Arabs chose to settle in the Land of Israel. Jobs provided by newly established Zionist industry and agriculture lured them there, just as Israeli construction and industry provides most Arabs in the Land of Israel with their main source of income today. Malcolm MacDonald, one of the principal authors of the British White Paper of 1939, which restricted Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel, admitted (conservatively) that were it not for a Jewish presence the Arab population would have been little more than half of what it actually was. Today, when due to the latest “intifada” Arabs from the territories under 35 are no longer allowed into pre-1967 Israel to work, unemployment has skyrocketed to over 40% and most rely on European aid packages to survive.
Not only pre-state Arabs lied about being indigenous. Even today, many prominent so-called Palestinians, it turns out, are foreign born. Edward Said, an Ivy League Professor of Literature and a major Palestinian propagandist, long claimed to have been raised in Jerusalem. However, in an article in the September 1999 issue of Commentary Magazine Justus Reid Weiner revealed that Said actually grew up in Cairo, Egypt, a fact which Said himself was later forced to admit. But why bother with Said? PLO chief Yasir Arafat himself, self declared “leader of the Palestinian people”, has always claimed to have been born and raised in “Palestine”. In fact, according to his official biographer Richard Hart, as well as the BBC, Arafat was born in Cairo on August 24, 1929 and that’s where he grew up.
To maintain the charade of being an indigenous population, Arab propagandists have had to do more than a little rewriting of history. A major part of this rewriting involves the renaming of geography. For two thousand years the central mountainous region of Israel was known as Judea and Samaria, as any medieval map of the area testifies. However, the state of Jordan occupied the area in 1948 and renamed it the West Bank. This is a funny name for a region that actually lies in the eastern portion of the land and can only be called “West” in reference to Jordan. This does not seem to bother the majority of news outlets covering the region, which universally refer to the region by its recent Jordanian name.
The term “Palestinian” is itself a masterful twisting of history. To portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an ancient Canaanite tribe, the Phillistines, that died out almost 3000 years ago. The connection between this tribe and modern day Arabs is nil. Who is to know the difference? Given the absence of any historical record, one can understand why Yasser Arafat claims that Jesus Christ, a Jewish carpenter from the Galilee, was a Palestinian. Every year, at Christmas time, Arafat goes to Bethlehem and tells worshippers that Jesus was in fact “the first Palestinian”.
If the Palestinians are indeed a myth, then the real question becomes “Why?” Why invent a fictitious people? The answer is that the myth of the Palestinian People serves as the justification for Arab occupation of the Land of Israel. While the Arabs already possess 21 sovereign countries of their own (more than any other single people on earth) and control a land mass 800 times the size of the Land of Israel, this is apparently not enough for them. They therefore feel the need to rob the Jews of their one and only country, one of the smallest on the planet. Unfortunately, many people ignorant of the history of the region, including much of the world media, are only too willing to help.
It is interesting to note that the Bible makes reference to a fictitious nation confronting Israel. “They have provoked me to jealously by worshipping a non-god, angered me with their vanities. I will provoke them with a non-nation; anger them with a foolish nation (Deuteronomy 32:21).”
On second thought, it may be unfair to compare Palestine to Disneyland. After all, Disneyland really exists.
“Myth Of The Palestinian People”
All of this has been soundly and completely debunked, but in any case, it also happens tone irrelevant. WhenIsrael was created, Jews only owned titles to 7% of the land, while Palestinians owned more than 50%.
If Israel was any Lind of democracy, it would respect property rights instead of stealing private land.
By the way Shamir, Israeli Scholar Shlomo Zand has written a thesis that claims the notion of a Jewish people is a myth. So like Palestinian, there are no such thing as the Jewish people.
Shamir,
Is the Holocaust a myth too?
How about the earth, is it flat or spherical?
“By the way Shamir, Israeli Scholar Shlomo Zand has written a thesis that claims the notion of a Jewish people is a myth”
Actually, Sand’s thesis is that there is no “pure” jewish ethnic group (which is a very good thing, unless you are in favor of inbreeding). That does not mean that there is no “Jewish people”.
RE: “The term “Palestinian” is itself a masterful twisting of history. To portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an ancient Canaanite tribe, the Phillistines, that died out almost 3000 years ago.”
Did Jericho simply die out? All the people of the land of Canaan? If you believe the jewish bible account, it’s pretty clear who the invaders were.
And now jews from Europe have an invader legacy to uphold? Nice.
Every American should protest the use of our dollars, especially in these bad economic time, protest the use of our dollars to support the current Goliath, Israel. And we should pack up those 750 military bases around the world and set our people free, including those who had to join the army because they couldn’t get a job at the local Walmart. Like that little blonde girl from Palestine, USA. Not to mention Rachel Corrie.
Private Lynch just needed a job, Rachel Corrie fought for morality, basic decency.
I wouldn’t denigrate Private Lynch for making the choice she did, even if it had more to do with economic need than anything else (and really only she can answer that). There is nothing unpatriotic about wanting to work for your country. That said, both Corrie and Lynch have something in common — they took risks to speak the truth, even when it was in their self-interest to sit back and pretend not to recognize the lies.
Lynch was asked by the press, “Why did you join the Army?” She said, “I come from Palestine, West Virginia; I couldn’t get a job at Wal-Mart.” She said, “I joined the Army to get out of Palestine, West Virginia”—a perfectly logical answer on her part.
35 Oscar,
link to youtube.com
Hamas using children as human shields.
Ofcourse this dont bother you.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
IDF to appeal human shield ban
The Israeli Defence Ministry will appeal against a supreme court ruling banning the use of Palestinian human shields in raids, officials said.
Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz is prepared to make a personal appearance in court to defend the practice, ministry officials added.
Human rights groups have frequently condemned the use of human shields.
The Israeli military believes that the use of Palestinian civilians can often defuse a tense situation.
Mr Mofaz is also set to argue that alternative methods of apprehending suspects, such as through the use of bulldozers, would endanger the lives of both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian civilians, a military source said.
Early warning
The Israeli supreme court issued its formal ruling last week, saying the practice violates international law.
It had already issued a temporary injunction against the practice in 2002 after a teenager was killed when troops made him negotiate with a wanted militant.
The court ruled out both the placing of civilians in front of soldiers on operations and an “early warning” procedure employed by the army.
In this practice, the Israeli army would force local Palestinians to approach the homes of militants and ask them to surrender.
ee gads the trolls are out in force today.
so basically anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a troll? Good to know. Shamir is making some pretty valid points. I don’t agree with some of them, but its nice to get some new blood in here.
A troll is someone who makes arguments that are completely out of context, derails the commenting section, passes off lies as facts, and spams the boards with all of the above.
Please elaborate. Do you agree with him that “there is no such thing as a Palestinian people?” Do you believe in “land without a people for a people without a land?”
I didn’t see you object specifically to those arguments, yonira.
how many times have i said the palestinians were a people and a nation on here. quit being a prick chaos
So what about Shamir’s position do you agree? I recommend being specific. It’s probably in your best interests.
annie: ee gads the trolls are out in force today.
yonira: so basically anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a troll?.
Wow, some trolls are self-identifying.
3e – if the only Jews in the world who accept your definition of antisemitism are Israelis and most Orthodox diaspora Jews and the only Christians who accept the same are fundamentalists, does that not concern you?
Are all the Jews who oppose what Israel has become your enemy? Why lock yourself into that corner?
I agree with you that Jews who do not care about Israel should move on. It’s a great pity that the dominant view in Israel is hellbent on divorcing Israelis from world Jewry.
What emerges in American and around the world will be healthier for diaspora Jews, and ultimately, for Israelis too – whenever they wake up from their bad dream.
Elliot,
There will not be diaspora Jews unless they are religious or supporters of Israel. The only place where secular Jews have a future is Israel.
Secular Jews that want to keep their Jewish identity will support Israel. Those that do not mind losing their identity will not. There will not be a divorce between the Jews in the diaspora and those in Israel. Those divorcing themselves in the diaspora, will not remain Jews for long.
There will not be diaspora Jews unless they are religious or supporters of Israel.
is this from your crystal ball? iow secular jews who are critical of israel’s apartheid are like doomed to……not remain jews?
Secular Jews that want to keep their Jewish identity will support Israel.
because you say so? are you saying that if a person self identifies as jewish, likes being jewish but is not religious and does not support israel because he/she is either a non or anti zionist then you don’t consider them jewish? isn’t that anti semitism? or does prejudice against jews (or denial of jewish identity) only count if they are the kind of jews you approve of?
The only place where secular Jews have a future is Israel.
this is what the christian zionists say too. they think all the jews should move to israel. i call this kind of thinking anti semitic. secular jews very much have a future here in america. it is their country as much as it is mine. you’re just spewing racist ethnic bullshit.
secular jews very much have a future here in america. it is their country as much as it is mine.
i was speaking of american secular jews not all secular jews, that goes w/out saying.
What I’m counting on is this: There may not be a future for secular Jews here, but a jocular Jew is welcome anywhere!
Or I could go back to the Borscht Belt, where I’m appreciated!
There will not be a divorce between the Jews in the diaspora and those in Israel. Those divorcing themselves in the diaspora, will not remain Jews for long.
it sounds like you are confusing yourself w/jews who divorce themselves from supporting israel’s apatheid regime with divorcing themselves with being jewish. this is from israel’s declaration of state
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
might there be a difference between supporting a state of freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel and supporting the zionist regime ruling israel today? it sounds like you are willing to throw lots of diaspora jews under a bus because they aren’t on board w/your vision of israel and won’t support it’s racist policies.
or maybe you can provide information for me from the prophets of israel to make me understand their version of freedom, justice and peace which includes subjugating millions of people to a state of permanent injustice.
Annie, you are extremely dense. A secular American Jew may define himself as a Jew because he was raised as one, but the chance of his/her kids being Jewish is quite small. They will not get religious education and will not feel any connection to Israel either (or maybe even a case of revulsion in the case of Phil and Blankfort’s kids). So, why would they fill Jewish at all?
“The only place where secular Jews have a future is Israel.”
ROTFLMSJAO!!!! Yeah, cause the history of secular Jews in the US has been one of unrelieved repression, persecution, and marginalisation! Just go to Wall Street, the Universities, your local hospital, or upscale community and ask them!
Shingo, on Israeli Scholar Shlomo Zand.
Israel Bartal, dean of the humanities faculty of the Hebrew University, in a commentary published in , in a commentary published in Haaretz,[9] writes that Sand’s basic thesis and statements about Jewish historiography are “baseless”. Bartal answers to “Sand’s arguments (…) that no historian of the Jewish national movement has ever really believed that the origins of the Jews are ethnically and biologically “pure” [and that] Sand applies marginal positions to the entire body of Jewish historiography and, in doing so, denies the existence of the central positions in Jewish historical scholarship.” Bartal refers to Sand’s overall treatment of Jewish sources as “embarrassing and humiliating.” He adds that “The kind of political intervention Sand is talking about, namely, a deliberate program designed to make Israelis forget the true biological origins of the Jews of Poland and Russia or a directive for the promotion of the story of the Jews’ exile from their homeland is pure fantasy.”
Bartel summarizes his critique of Sand’s characterization of Jewish historiography as follows: “as far as I can discern, the book contains not even one idea that has not been presented earlier in their books and articles by what he insists on defining as “authorized historians” suspected of “concealing historical truth,”" and calls the overall work “bizarre and incoherent.
Shamir,
You deliberately left out the Ray of what Bartal said.
Bartal supported Zand’s more consequential thesis, writing, “Although the myth of an exile from the Jewish homeland (Palestine) does exist in popular Israeli culture, it is negligible in serious Jewish historical discussions.” Bartal added: “no historian of the Jewish national movement has ever really believed that the origins of the Jews are ethnically and biologically ‘pure.’ ” He noted that “[i]mportant groups in the [Zionist] movement expressed reservations regarding this myth or denied it completely.”
Contrary to several claims made in comments, a great many people do criticize American nationalism, especially in its systematic denial and violation of rights of the people indigenous to North America, the Native Americans.
I’m struck that the pro-Israel zealots never spell out what they mean by “Zionism” except to equate it with the nationalist aspirations of Jews (by no means all Jews). For that matter, very few critics do either. There are a great many Zionists of the late 19th Century and early 20th Century who, if they were alive today, would be horrified by what is being done in the name of Zionism. (And Anthony Julius, et al., would be logically committed to condemning those Zionists as anti-Semitic.
That is the real irony of the line taken by Anthony Julius or Alan Dershowitz or several in the comments on this site: There are unambiguous, well-established Zionists who — on the rabidly, extreme-right-wing conception of Zionism — are anti-Semitic. Richard Goldstone is just the most recent victim of this right-wing campaign of hatred.
As Richard Hofstader argued (and as I think was noted recently on this site), the most rabid, right-wing pro-Israel crowd adopt many of the worst features of the people they ostensibly oppose (by whom I have in mind the Nazis).
There is a world of difference between saying (1) that European Jews (and their European and American backers) had NO right to forcibly remove the indigenous people of Palestine from the 40s through to the present and (2) that Jews now resident for decades in Israel must leave. I take (1) to be clearly true, as it was of the Europeans who killed or displaced Native Americans, as it is of Han Chinese who displace Uighurs and Tibetans, and so on. Note that (1) does NOT deny Jews at any time past or present the right to move to the region west of the Jordan River and buy land, establish homes, create lives. Had such a process of demographic shift happened without the violent expulsion and mass-murder of Palestinians, it is far less likely we’d be seeing the endless war we see today.
Were the idolaters of Israeli war crimes to address the distinction above they would then have to address the issue of reparations or compensation or reconciliation for the atrocities committed against Palestinians in the 40s and 50s (not to mention all the atrocities since).
It is far easier for them to engage in the libel and slander of labeling anti-Semitic all critics of Israeli policies.
Stop beating around the bush, are you for or against a Jewish state?
eee,
Stop wanking off to your own bullshit.
Nobody expects the Israeli Inquisition!
Eee, are you for or against the principal that any state can define itself and act accordingly? Self govern. If so, why did they hang those Germans at Nuremberg? And those Japanese? Did Jeffrey Dahmer and Charlie Manson have a right to live free and full of joy, as they did?
Bad question, E3, “are you for or against a Jewish state” ? Very bad question.
Sample answer in three parts:
[1] I’m for “a” Jewish state, the smaller the better, maybe 1 square km in Tel Aviv, with lots of high-rise buildings to accommodate all the Jews who demand to live in a TRIBAL “country”, a “Jewish state”.
(Happily, I am not an anti-Semite, with this answer, because I am “for” “a Jewish State”.)
[2] I’m also for another country, also inside Mandatory Palestine, for Palestinians who similarly demand to live in a TRIBAL “country”.
[3] THEN all the rest (of Mandatory Palestine) for normal human beings–Jews and non-Jews, Israelis and Palestinians, who are happy to live in a democracy where people can be free to be themselves and do not try to control each other. You know, like New York City.
SEE? That way everybody gets what he wants, and YOU get “a Jewish state.” Was it really “a” Jewish state you wanted, or a particular one? Or one with a minimum size? Or what? Try to be precise. But, I warn you, it’s no fun, being precise.
Pabelmont,
You are certainly an antisemite. 99% of Israel’s Jews want a Jewish state. Most want a Jewish state based on the 67 borders with some changes, not just a small area in Tel-Aviv.
“You are certainly an antisemite.”
No shit!? …Can I be an “anti-Semite” too? Pretty please? I do not believe Israel has the right to be a Jewish state but a state for all its citizens..Can I?
Yeah and I forgot..You’re quite explicitly an ultra-nationalistic fascist, eee. It became very clear from the exchange we had 2 days ago where you had no problems with the might makes right concept.
>> 99% of Israel’s Jews want a Jewish state.
What does “a Jewish state” mean? Do non-Jews have equal rights – or any rights at all? – in “a Jewish state”?
>> Most want a Jewish state based on the 67 borders with some changes …
What kind of changes? If the Palestinians accept the ’67 borders and veto the changes – or if they counter with “some changes” of their own, is that acceptable?
Shingo, a must read.
link to israelnationalnews.com
Azmi Bishara: There is No “Palestinian” Nation. Never Was!
Avi Yellin
11/27/09
Samir must read, “When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?” by Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand.
Shamir must read,
“Deconstructing the walls of Jericho” by Written by
By Ze’ev Herzog
“Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs’ acts are legendary, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel. These facts have been known for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and nobody wants to hear about it”
link to mideastfacts.org
See also: The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts , Israel Finkelstein et al. Same idea: Bible written as a propaganda piece in 700 BCE, no prior history at all, no Slaves-in-Egypt, no red sea, no walls of Jericho, etc. A great read if you are happy with these conclusions, because you find out WHY they conclude this stuff.
hughsansom, what are you talking about?
The entire Arab world attacked Israel in 48 in their own words to kill all the Jews.
On the day that Israel declared its independence, the Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared “jihad”, a holy war. He said, “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades”.
Then hughsansom says, that Jews now resident for decades in Israel must leave.
WOW! did you just come from a Hamas meeting.
Sorry to break the news to you, Jews aren’t going nowhere.
Israel belongs to them.
The Jews are the indigenous people who were on this land long before Any Arab got there.
You do know that nobody buys that lie around here, right? We all know what Zionists militants started doing what with purging Palestinian villages, ultimately by the hundreds and well outside of the UN partition lines, before any third party Arab nation even set foot in the Palestinian partition — and none of them occupied land in the Israeli partition, much unlike Israel.
Ask the British who started the conflict. They were there, too.
181 doesn’t matter Chaos, it wasn’t accepted, why should Israel have abided by those lines? LOL and the lie you are referring to is true, do you deny the quote from Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha? How many times do we go over the same shit on here?
The British commander of Jordan’s Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted: * Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman… They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.
The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution. On February 16, 1948, the Commission reported to the Security Council:
* Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.
The Arabs, inside and outside the territory defined for the State of Israel, gave no consideration to these offers of peace or the many other attempts to negotiate a settlement. Immediately following the declaration of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948 and the departure of the British the next day, the five Arab armies invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League:
* This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.
More facts about the partition and War for Independence:
link to maurice-ostroff.tripod.com
Who was the first party to violate the partition lines, yonira? The Zionist militants, or Arab soldiers from the surrounding countries?
The partition is irrelevant, but to answer your question:
The Arab nations as a bloc opposed partition. The Arabs rejected the Resolution. Partition was unacceptable to either the Palestinians or the neighboring Arab states. The Arabs threaten to invade if the Jews moved to establish a Jewish state. Armed irregulars, both Palestinian and other Arabs, immediately began to attack Jewish communities. Low level attacks continued as the British withdrawl from Palestine approached.
he Arab States responded to the creation of the UN-mandated Jewish State of Israel with a joint invasion (May 1948). Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, Egyptian, and Transjordanian troops, supported by Saudi, Iraqi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared, “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.” Each of the neigboring Arab states had armies with modern weapons although the training was uneven. The neigboring Arabs states (Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt) invaded to destroy the new Jewish state. The invasion force included five regular Arab armies along with armed Palestinians, and armed Arab volunteers (including Moslem Brotherhood elements).
The Arab nations voted against the partition, yes.
The war started when Zionist militants started wiping out Palestinian villages.
Population transfer was not only against the UN partition, it’s also a direct violation of international law.
The position you’re taking pretty much confirms that the Zionist movement never had any intention of respecting the partition lines — you can’t claim the UN legitimized Israel, then turn around and reject the partition, then turn around and claim it was the Arabs who rejected it when it was Zionist attacks on Palestinian civilians that started the war, then turn around and say UN involvement is irrelevant in the first place.
You’ve lied about claiming that Israel accepted the partition, and now that you’re confronted with that lie, you want to dismiss the whole issue as irrelevant. You brought it up in the first place.
And I’ll leave you with a most relevant quote as to why the partition plan was deliberately subverted, care of one of Israel’s Prime Ministers:
eee, the arab invasion of Israel deconstructed:
link to desip.igc.org
So what happened?
link to quakerpi.org
Thanks Citizen – I’m just reading the Simha Flapan book now…
Shamir;
Re: The myth of the Palestinian people
You’re saying that Palestine had no people in it before a map of it was made 1917?
I suppose you’ll next be claiming that the crusaders (meaning the knights under Richard I of the 11th and 12th century and all) invaded Israel. Is my history book which says that Jesus was born in Palestine wrong, because Palestine had no people when Jesus was born?
Here’s the scoop on the myth of nobody living in Palestine except a couple of raghead nomads before Jews came there because it was their “homeland”:
link to palestineremembered.com
lynn, if you had asked Jesus, “Where were you born?” do you think he would have answered, “Palestine”? Certainly not.
Because the Romans hadn’t yet changed the name from Judea to Palestine.
Bloom wrote: The new English (and Continental) anti-Semitism is hatred for Israel, …
The continent has nothing to do with the book, nor with his piece. Wow. And Dersh writes bi-daily. Who is teaching the Ivy students these days?
Shamir;
Re: “On the day that Israel declared its independence, the Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared “jihad”, a holy war.”
Why is it that the first major massacre of the war of 1948, at Deir Yassin, occurred a full month beforeIsrael declared its “independence,” and occurred outsideterritory allotted by the U.N. partition plan to the Jewish state?
Well, here’s about as good a whitewash of Deir Yassin as any Israel apologist could hope for:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Clearly it was a terrorist tactic. By a non-state force. You know, what the US MSM always says it defends against, supporting the “war on terror?”
Lyn117, Palestine is a Roman name, which the Romans named after the Philistines who came from Crete and had nothing to do with the current Palestinians.
Cute historical revisionism. Of course, the Canaanites that were ethnically cleansed by the Hebrews of Egypt were not Palestinians either. But, your ass that made Aliya just recently belongs there, right? You’re a joke.
Well, but you’re the person who says that there weren’t any people in Palestine prior to 1917 except maybe some Syrians, and with one breath says Palestine never existed, and the next say it was the Roman name for something. And, since Palestine never existed (that being why there aren’t any Palestinians), the thing the Romans named must have been a giant hole in the earth on the east coast of the Mediterranean Sea. My head’s surely spinning. I mean, I knew the Dead Sea was there, but I didn’t realize that was so big! But now the whole story of the flood and Noah’s ark makes a little bit more sense. It wasn’t the rain, it must have been the Mediterranean pouring in that caused the flood! We must hurry and re-write the bible! (it surely needs it).
hughsansom, you say, Richard Goldstone is just the most recent victim of this right-wing campaign of hatred.
What victim, this killer Goldstone sent 28 black South Africans to death when they appeared before him during the apartheid regime,
I would like tonight for Philip Weiss and Adam Horowitz to investigate these 28 cases. All of a sudden left wing Jews are no where to be found.
“Reports that international jurist Richard Goldstone sent 28 black South Africans to death during the apartheid regime prove he wasn’t impartial when compiling the UN report on Gaza War”, Deputy Foreign Minister of Israel Danny Ayalon said Thursday, May 6, according to The Jerusalem Post. Speaking to Israel Radio , Ayalon said that, “after [Goldstone’s] dubious background was revealed, there is no reason not to think” that the judge had ulterior motives in composing the UN report accusing the IDF [Israeli Defense Force] of perpetrating war crimes in Gaza. “This so-called respected judge is using his [Gaza] report in order to atone for his sins and gain international legitimacy,” Ayalon opined.
The Yediot Aharonot reporters uncovered that Goldstone reportedly wrote in one of his rulings that the gallows were the only deterrent for killers . Well, there is nothing particularly wrong with this Goldstone opinion (as we know, many people around the world express similar notions), but the problem is that after leaving the bench, Richard Goldstone repeatedly expressed his strong opposition to the death penalty.
Israeli YNet online magazine wrote on May 6 that in response to accusations against him, Goldstone said that he has always been opposed to the death penalty, but because he had been acting within a legal system in which the death penalty existed, his hands were tied. He also claimed that he had been obligated to honor the laws of the country, even under the racist rule.
“I don’t want to exaggerate, but these are the same explanations we heard in Nazi Germany after World War II,” Ayalon said. “That is not an explanation that justifies his [Goldstone’s] actions.”
I would advise Justice Goldstone to rent a wonderful video, the 1960s Stanley Kramer movie Judgment at Nuremberg, and watch in the comfort of his Johannesburg home how four Nazi jurists, sitting in the dock at the 1948 trial, used literally the same justifications for their murderous actions, as now does he.
“I would like tonight for Philip Weiss and Adam Horowitz to investigate these 28 cases. All of a sudden left wing Jews are no where to be found.”
There are plenty of right wing Hasbarats investigating this right now, so I’m sure they’ll dig up evidence is there is any. If there isn’t any, they’ll manufacture it.
Of course, apartheid South Africa was a very close ally with Israel and Israel provided many of the arms that were used to kill black South Africans.
It’s a putty Israel’s shills don’t put as much effort into arguing the points in Goldstone’s report as they do into stacking Golstone.
Appatetnly they think they have a greater chance of success assassinating the msn than refuting the evidence of Israel’s war crimes.
Shamir, eee, your spiritual zionist buddy, has told us that the Nuremberg Trials are irrelevant. Eee constantly offers up defenses for Israeli activity
that are the same used by the defendants at Nuremberg. I do agree with you that the defenses offered by the Nuremberg defendants, and the apologists for apartheid S Africa are the same as those now offered by
Israel apologists.
Julian already posted this particular bit of hasbara. Isn’t it interesting that these shills always repeat the same propaganda. Too bad they’re incapable of thinking for themselves.
lyn117, Did you ever hear of the Hebron massacre in 1929.
On Deir Yassin,
Deir Yassin history of a lie.
link to freerepublic.com
This is why they dont want Shamir on here.
Deir Yassin was a calculated terrorist action done by Jews to get the non-Jewish natives to leave their own land:
link to deiryassin.org
Deir Yassin was boasted about in the first edition of the book “The Revolt” by Menachem Begin (but some of this was removed in later editions). The idea was to frighten the Palestinians into running out of the war zone (as it advanced and overspread much of Mandatory Palestine). The massacre itself (and the public display of the few survivors of the massacre and the stories about how women were treated) had the desired effect, and many Palestinians ran.
The “revolt” in the book’s title was the terrorist war by the terrorist wings of the Yishuv against Britain to encourage the war-weary Brits to pull out and leave Palestine to the tender mercies of the Jews, who had thoughtfully provided themselves with an army (Hagannah) to deal with the Palestinians (who had no army) after the Brits left (and a bit before-hand, I expect).
Citing freerepublic? LOL
Unlike Deir Yassin massacre deniers, pro-Palestinian activists fully acknowledge that the 1929 massacre in Hebron was a tragedy. A few points on the massacre since it is often used to justify Zionist oppression in Hebron (and elsewhere) today:
1. Some Palestinians risked their lives defending their Jewish neighbors, hiding them in their homes until the mobs left (they received certificates of appreciation from Jewish organizations for their actions). Of course moral degenerates like you who use past suffering to justify oppression will never mention this. Innocent Arabs also died in the ’29 riots.
2. Contrary to the Zionist claim that the massacre was organized internally by Hebron Arabs, many of whom lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors, the belligerents mostly came from neighboring villages.
3. Would this attack have occurred if Zionists had not made clear their intention of taking over Palestine? Weeks before, Zionists raised Jewish flags in Old Jerusalem. Like it or not, Zionists planted the seeds of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
4. It is unclear how involved the British were in the attack.
5. As much as you would like it to, the death of Hebron Jews in 1929 does not give moral cover for Israel to kill Palestinians today. And it certainly did not give Zionists the right to massacre Palestinians at Deir Yassin. If you’re consistent, you should oppose all acts of aggression and terrorism.
It’s also ironic that Hebron Jewish settlers, who invoke the 1929 massacre to justify their “right” to the land, hail Baruch Goldstein as a hero for killing 29 Palestinians in a shooting rampage in Hebron 1994. I suppose only Jewish life matters to them?
Shamir, what’s your point about the Hebron massacre? Are you claiming it was part of the 1948 war? Or are you claiming that the Hebron massacre provides justificaiont for the massacre at Deir Yassin?
FYI, the Hebron massacre was almost 20 years before Deir Yassin, and at a different locale. Most of the people involved in murders of 1929 were tried, and three of the Arab murderers (none of the Jewish murderers) were hanged by the British. If the zionists of the period weren’t satisfied with that outcome, they certainly had ample opportunity to complain to the British.
And speaking of motive, the biggest motive behind the riots of 1929 was zionist plans to take over Palestine and expel the Palestinian Arabs. It can’t be claimed the zionist promotional advertising of the period that showed the Dome of the Rock with a zionist flag waving over it conducive to harmonious relations between members of different religions. The massacre was deplorable, but since when does it legitimize the goal of taking over a land from its indigenous people and blatant, legalized racism against them?
The time has come to demand that Saudi Arabia open up the apartheid cities of mecca and medina and allow members of any religion to visit or live there!
Mecca and Medina are the last 2 places on earth where apartheid thrives with the Saudi government’s blessing.
Why haven’t enlightened moslem leaders from around the world called for the opening up and internationalization of mecca and medina?
Hmmm. Why hasn’t the Obama administration come out in favor of opening up mecca and medina to non-moslems?
By allowing moslems to practice this apartheid racism against non-moslems, the world is helping to perpetuate moslem feelings of superiority and therefore moslem terrorism.
If only the Arab could put himself in the 21st century.
Even the 19th would be an improvement.
Do you have any arguments that aren’t racist ?
“If only the Arab could put himself in the 21st century.
Even the 19th would be an improvement.”
This coming from someone who thinks the Bible is a land deed from God.
Shamir, it might help if the modern zionists would stop themselves from applying the barbarian tribal tactics and strategy of antiquity.
It might help us Jews a whole lot more if we stop arguing with anti-semites and all these little Hitlers here, and saved our energy for raising our birth-rate.
Why the hell don’t we go back to polygamy? It was good enough for Moses, it’s good enough for me!
And I might mention, while we sit here arguing the Goyim are stealing our womens!
I’ll take a high birth-rate, combined with an easy-going polygamy (Mama, lay that pistol down!) over all the Nobel Prizes in the world, when it comes to establishing a colony in hostile territory.
As I have said before, the failure of Zionism will be laid directly at the feet of the closed thighs of Jewish womens!
James Bradley, The Nakba was the result of the Palestinians, together with their Arab allies, to perform “ethnic cleansing” of the Jews , and their failure to accomplish it.
Ben Gurion says you’re a liar.
“Ben Gurion says you’re a liar”
Now, there a sword that’s sharp on both sides!
hughsansom, If Palestinian terrorists take cover among civilians, there will be civilian casualties. It’s that simple
Since the Kiryah is right there, smack dab in the center of Tel-Aviv, then Israeli terrorists who take cover there will result in civilian casualties. It’s that simple. In fact, since at some point every Israeli will serve in the IOF, then civilian casualties among Israelis will be OK too, in or out of uniform, right?
Yonira, mark my words, Philip Weiss will bar me from this site.
He does this to anyone who rebukes his lies.
Philip Weiss is no different then an Arab dictator.
He wants to squash all opposition.
To Lyn, every single Jew in the parts of the Mandate seized by the Arabs was expelled from their homes. No exceptions. They even dynamited the entire ancient Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem in an attempt to wipe out the history of Jewish residence there. They also made it illegal for a Jew to live in the areas of the former Mandate that they controlled, including the West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.
The Arabs kicked out like 700,000 Jews from the Arab countries.
It was probably the most thorough and well documented ethnic cleansing in modern times.
“Yonira, mark my words, Philip Weiss will bar me from this site.”
that’s becasue you’re doing your level best to give him reason to.
Stop lying and stop your racist bile and you’ll be allowed to stick around. You’re just like Israel who murders Palestinians and then when they fight back, claims that it proves the palestinians want to kill Jews.
“The Arabs kicked out like 700,000 Jews from the Arab countries”
That’s been debunked even in Israel. It’s a myth that was invented during the Clinton years.
Hitching a ride on the magic carpet
” Any analogy between Palestinian refugees and Jewish immigrants from Arab lands is folly in historical and political terms ”
link to haaretz.com
debunked, where? everything is a lie or has been debunked to you Shingo. Here is the reality:
link to en.wikipedia.org
A little foreshadowing for you:
In a key address before the Political Committee of the U.N. General Assembly on November 14, 1947, just five days before that body voted on the partition plan for Palestine, Heykal Pasha, an Egyptian delegate, made the following key statement in connection with that plan:
The United Nations . . . should not lose sight of the fact that the proposed solution might endanger a million Jews living in the Moslem countries. Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than the anti-Semitism which the Allies were trying to eradicate in Germany. . . If the United Nations decides to partition Palestine, it might be responsible for the massacre of a large number of Jews.
link to meforum.org
And was Pasha wrong that allowing European Jews to ethnically cleanse most of Palestine (and continue doing so for sixty years running) has led to extreme resentment of Jews?
Also, do you deny that Zionist terrorism in Arab countries, both against non-Jews and Jews, also contributed to the breaking down of hundreds of years of Jews living in harmony with Muslims and Christians throughout the Middle East? Like, say, the Lavon affair for instance?
“debunked, where? everything is a lie or has been debunked to you Shingo. Here is the reality:
link to en.wikipedia.org”
No mention anywhere of ethnic cleansing.
“http://www.meforum.org/263/why-jews-fled-the-arab-countries”
Again, no mention anywhere of ethnic cleansing.
Thanks for proving my point Yonira.
Yonira hmm yes let’s take a closer look at that wiki entry –
“Iraqi-born Ran Cohen, a former member of the Knesset, said: “I have this to say: I am not a refugee. I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee”.
Yemeni-born Yisrael Yeshayahu, former Knesset speaker, Labor Party, stated: “We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations”.
And Iraqi-born Shlomo Hillel, also a former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party, claimed: “I do not regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.”[95]
link to en.wikipedia.org
It’s a cynical campaign to offset any claims by the Palestinians to claim what is legitimately theirs – ie most of Israel.
You haven’t rebuked anything so far. Your imagination is playing tricks on you. The only thing you have proven is that you lack basic knowledge and lack a room temperature IQ.
“Philip Weiss is no different then an Arab dictator”
Wrong.
“Philip Weiss is no different from an Arab dictator.”
Perhaps this is not true, but at least the grammar is correct.
“Philip Weiss is no different then an Arab dictator.”
Watch out, Phil! The next step is “a Hitler”!
You, you, you Arab dictator! (And he meant it to sting!)
Shingo, Goldstone said he always opposed the death penalty, but yet he sent 28 blacks to their deaths.
Thats why their needs to be an investigation.
The Palestinians were the biggest allies to Saddam Hussein as he was killing hundreds of thousands of Kurds.
“Shingo, Goldstone said he always opposed the death penalty, but yet he sent 28 blacks to their deaths.
Thats why their needs to be an investigation.”
So you are already making unproven allegations against Goldstone, while admitting i
the charges need to be investigated.
Hey Shamir, why doesn’t Istael investigate the charges of war crimes in the Golstone Report?
“The Palestinians were the biggest allies to Saddam Hussein as he was killing hundreds of thousands of Kurds.”
Actually, it was the Americsns who were Saddam’s ally dhe he was killing Kurds.
Israrl were the biggest ally of South Africa while they murdered 1 million black South Africans.
Israel supported and trained Idi Amin who was a genocidal maniac, not to mention the dozen other African dictatorships that Israel propped and supported over the years.
And since the US protected Saddam from any international rebuke after he massacred the Kurds, then the money you pocket each year courtesy of Uncle Sam (unless you’re already on welfare in the States, or sponging off some Madoff-like scheme {Nah you’re not that smart}), then the money you use is blood money.
Goldstone said he always opposed the death penalty, but yet he sent 28 blacks to their deaths. Thats why there needs to be an investigation.
why? weren’t judges bound by the laws of the country in SA? as far as i know judges here take an oath to carry out the laws of the land, not their own personal agenda. no judge would make it thru confirmation process if he stated he would be passing sentences based on his personal beliefs. most states here have sentencing rules that lay out specific punishments (years of incarcerations etc) based on conviction of the charges.
on death penalty cases in the US you will be disqualified from the jury if you state you would not convict a person of murder if it meant the death penalty would be enforced. i suppose any judge would also be thrown of the bench. judges don’t make the rules they enforce them.
Shingo, DO THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MURDERERS DISCRIMINATE AMONG THE JEWS WHEN THEY BLOW UP A RESTAURANT or Bus?
To them every Jew is a target: good or bad, liberal or conservative, religious or non-religious, young or old.
It is something for the leftist Jews to ponder about.
And you know that because the voices in your head tell you so?
Shamir,
“DO THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MURDERERS DISCRIMINATE AMONG THE JEWS WHEN THEY BLOW UP A RESTAURANT or Bus?”
Yes, just as the Israelis do when they blow up a hospital or a shool or a UN compound.
“To them every Jew is a target: good or bad, liberal or conservative, religious or non-religious, young or old.”
Same with Israelis:
“The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.”
Ze’ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha’aretz. )
“It is something for the leftist Jews to ponder about.”
Left and right.
“Again, the Palestinians chose to launch a terror war in 2000.”
Israel chose to launch it 1948 and never stopped.
“They knew Israel would defend themselves aggressively if necessary.”
On the few occasions they were attacked yes, otherwise, Israel has been attacking aggressively.
“The terrorists hide among civilians, despite knowing this will cause civilian damage. It`s sad.”
All members of the IDF hide among civilians, despite knowing this will cause civilian damage. It`s sad.
BTW. Hamas declared an end to terrorist attacks in 2004. Israrl still continues.
just as the Israelis do when they blow up a hospital or a shool or a UN compound
don’t you mean the ISRAELI JEWISH MURDERERS?
(snark)
“To them every Jew is a target: good or bad, liberal or conservative, religious or non-religious, young or old”
I’ll keep a sharp eye out for Arab murderors when I walk the dog.
“It is something for the leftist Jews to ponder about.”
And something for the right-wing Jews to pander about!
I just love a win-win, everybody goes home happy.
Again, the Palestinians chose to launch a terror war in 2000.
They knew Israel would defend themselves aggressively if necessary.
The terrorists hide among civilians, despite knowing this will cause civilian damage. It`s sad.
And how does one bomb a hospital in self defense?
you mean the Gaza hospital where all the Hamas hierarchy took refuge during Caste Lead?
link to jpost.com
It’s against international law to use hospitals for cover. Israel could have bombed that bunker to shit, but they didn’t.
I take it, then, you also think the Zionist bombing of the King David Hotel was legitimate too? I mean after all, the British military were using it “for cover” too, huh.
How do you explain what happened to the other seven hospitals, yonira? Better yet, what about Israel’s attacks on UNWRA?
I thought the link I provided explained it pretty well. The bombing of the King David was a terrorist operation, plain and simple. I don’t deny that one bit. There were warnings to try and avoid casualties, but they were ignored.
link to historylearningsite.co.uk
The link provided explains that Israel intended to assassinate the leadership of Hamas with air strikes. Even if that means attacking the apartment buildings where they live or hospitals in which they are staying.
I thought only terrorists used that sort of logic, that it’s OK to attack your intended target with explosives no matter who else gets caught in the blast.
You claim you respect the human rights of Palestinians, but then you endorse their wholesale slaughter and the abrogation of their human rights. You might as well be giving them pox-ridden blankets, for all the sympathy you are showing (a metaphor your girlfriend would find resonant, I expect).
“you mean the Gaza hospital where all the Hamas hierarchy took refuge during Caste Lead?”
According to Israel only of course, the same Israel that banned foreign reporters from entering and being able to verify this independently. This is the same Israel, you will recall, that claims Hamas broke the ceasefire, which you admit is a lie.
“It’s against international law to use hospitals for cover. Israel could have bombed that bunker to shit, but they didn’t.”
It’s against international law to blockade a country.
It’s against international law to blockade a country without unless attacked first.
Israel could have bombed that bunker to shit, but they didn’t, becasue there was no bunker.
Its not against the Geneva convention for political leaders to seek refuge in a hospital. It is not against the Geneva convention for ANYONE to seek refuge in a hospital, as long as they do not fire from the hospital, or engage in combat from the hospital.
If yonira is going to contend that the alleged existence of a member of Hamas in a hospital makes it a legitimate target, then he really can’t complain about any targets in Israel, since members of the IDF also frequent hospitals, pizza parlors, discos, pesach seders, etc.
The bombing of the King David was a terrorist operation, plain and simple. I don’t deny that one bit. There were warnings to try and avoid casualties, but they were ignored.
The bombing of the King David Hotel was just ONE of the many terrorist acts committed by the Irgun and Lehi.
The following is a summary showing the types of terrorism committed in 1946[the year of the King David blast] by the Zionist terrorists:
1. Blowing up of trains and bridges.
2. Killing British soldiers, officers and policemen.
3. Killing Arabs.
4. Taking and torturing hostages.
5. Robbing jewelry stores, mostly diamonds and gold.
6. Kidnapping of Jews.
7. Massacre of the King David Hotel (July 22).
8. Extortion of money from Jews and killing Jews for refusing to contribute to terrorists.
9. Cutting telephone lines and blowing up of central exchanges.
10. Placing bombs in buildings, markets and roads which killed or wounded civilians passing by, members of British armed forces, and British and Arab policemen.
11. Robbing banks and killing people during robberies.
12. Placing bombs in railway stations, markets and Government offices and exploding them, killing and injuring many people.
13. Assassination of British and Arab police officers.
14. Killing Arab children.
15. Derailing railway cars.
16. Placing boobytraps which killed soldiers and civilians.
17. Sniping at police and soldiers.
18. Armed robbery of banks.
19. Placing trucks filled with explosives near buildings, destroying them and killing and wounding many people.
20. Filling cars with explosives (about 40 lbs.) and exploding them by remote control, killing and wounding soldiers, policemen and civilians. Some buildings and houses were completely destroyed.
21. Setting cars of Jews and Arabs on fire and causing damage to passersby.
22. Kidnapping British officers and soldiers, flogging them, torturing them and humiliating them.
23. Throwing bombs in cafes, killing and injuring many people.
Yes, you read that right. The Irgun and Lehi attacked Jews as well. Sometimes it was to extort money to finance their terroism, sometimes it was to intimidate those Jews who bought Arab merchandise or employed Arab workers, sometimes it was vengeance against those Jews who tried to stand in their way.
If you want a more detailed list, taken from British Mandate records, check out here:
link to palestine-encyclopedia.com
and read the British records. Chapters 4 through 7 list Jewish terrorism committed from 1939 (reaction to the White Paper) though early 1948.
A lot of terrorism. No “warning” from the terrorists. I suspect that the King David “warning” was either an exception, or a lie.
Very well put Tree.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, by Yonira’s and Witty’s standards, every inch if Israel is a legitimate target, seeing as most adults in Israel serve or have served in the IDF. Who’s to say that there weren’t IDF members in those pizza parlor or cafe’s at the tome they were attacked. What’s more, they were probably in civilian clothing at the time which violates the laws of which which stipulate that soldiers should be wearing their uniforms.
“Its not against the Geneva convention for political leaders to seek refuge in a hospital.”
If they use it as their HQ and run the war from it, that is against the Geneva convention.
eee,
Even the Jerusalem Post article cited doesn’t make any claim that political leaders “ran the war’ from a hospital. It mentions only that they slept there on the night of December 27th. Even if the IDF claim is correct on that score (and they have a reputation for lying about such things) there is nothing contrary to the Geneva convention in sleeping in a hospital.
“Even if the IDF claim is correct on that score (and they have a reputation for lying about such things) there is nothing contrary to the Geneva convention in sleeping in a hospital.”
Of course if that’s eee’s measure of what constitutes a legitimate target, then virtually all private homes in Israel are also legitimate target because most adults have to serve in the IDF and they all go home to sleep right?
[King David “warning” was either an exception, or a lie. ]
This cannot be a lie, because it is one divine requirement for a guarantee to win a war… It is an ordinance by the Torah… The one who violates this will in the long run, or ultimately lost or will never win a battle, war, or cause…
There is no such thing as divine requirement.
The Torah is a work of fiction.
The appeal of Livni to Hamas over the cable TV (Aljazeera and BBC) to stop the barrage of Rockets during the month of November of 2008 at the onset of the Gaza war was a very haunting and unforgettable sight. This make me difficult to understand the plight of the Palestinians in the aftermath of the war despite of the ‘exceeding force’ applied by the IDF. This is how crucial is the moral impact of warning the enemies in the process of engaging in a battle.
[The Torah is a work of fiction. ]
It is a fiction for you, but some nations are willing to send their whole army, and fight a savage battle for that cause…
It is a fiction for you, but some nations are willing to send their whole army, and fight a savage battle for that cause…
For instance?
Think of western nations whose concepts of justice is primarily anchored on the Torah, these are the same concepts of justice that determine the interactions among nations; war or peace…
Go away zamass. Go away!
“The appeal of Livni to Hamas over the cable TV (Aljazeera and BBC) to stop the barrage of Rockets during the month of November of 2008 at the onset of the Gaza war was a very haunting and unforgettable sight.”‘
Was that before or after Livni told the world that a long ceasfire with Hamas was not in Israel’s strategic interests?
“It is a fiction for you, but some nations are willing to send their whole army, and fight a savage battle for that cause… ”
False. No nation in the world is willing to send their whole army to war in the name of the Torah.
“Think of western nations whose concepts of justice is primarily anchored on the Torah, these are the same concepts of justice that determine the interactions among nations; war or peace… ”
Nope can think of any. Which ones?
You know you’d have this lefty Jew on your side(a little) if you were more of a sporting chap. Assuming Israel has every right to enter Gaza and whup Paly ass, why not go in mano a mano with nothing but your uzi to defend your right? Leave the armor, artillery, aircraft at home. Save it for the really big jobs. People will respect that. No one loves a bully. Sacrifice a bit. Lead by example. Unless vicious spite and a lust for human flesh has clouded your judgement.
We are waiting for Jews like you to come and lead us into battle. Why don’t you lead by example? I like my wars short and one sided so I can return quickly to my family.
Shingo, you say, Israel were the biggest ally of South Africa while they murdered 1 million black South Africans.
1 million Black South Africans killed when.
Your mixing up South Africa with Southern Sudan or the Congo
Your facts are way off.
I think maybe 30,000 or less blacks were killed by the white goverment.
Show me where 1 million blacks were killed by the white goverment?
Zionists using Holocaust denial tactics themselves. Wow, color me shocked.
What is your point, Shamir? You think it is OK that Israel was the biggest ally of apartheid South Africa because much less than 1 million black South Africans were murdered? A reduction in the death toll to 30,000 makes support for apartheid OK? What about lynching in the American South? I’ll bet the death toll was less than 30,000, so no problem at all, right?
I stand corrected on that figure Shamir,but ashes bb
I stand by the fact that Israel was Sputh Africas’s au during apartheid, so claiming that apartheid is an anathema to sistaeli values is a failed argument.
I wouldn’t apologize too much for that figure, Shingo–South Africa deliberately destabilized its neighbors, supporting Renamo in Mozambique,which was one of the most brutal guerilla movements anywhere, so grotesque that even the Reagan Administration backed off supporting them (though many Republicans wanted to do so). They also supported Savimbi in Angola (as did the US). The civil war in Mozambique killed nearly one million people and the one in Angola about 500,000.
There were 1.5 million deaths in the civil wars in Angola and Mozambique,which were supported by South Africa. South Africa supported the Renamo movement in Mozambique,which even the Reagan Administration compared to the Khmer Rouge because of their brutality. But Savimbi’s Unita group in Angola was about as bad (and also had enthusiastic American support. The American right also loved Renamo.)
I dare say the bloom is off the rose.
The self perpetuateing aurgument that we must defend ourselves from these savage attacks that occur while we are occupying someone elses home always leave me agape. And don’t say Hamas, you are all hearby forbidden from using that word. So sayeth I. All who concur please raise your right hands in agreeance.
Ohh looks like a new Psy.Ops IDF unit is on duty tonight. What’s up with all this “Leftist Jew” talk I’m hearing? Hmm where else have I heard that sort of thing?
Ironic, isn’t it?
My original thought on the subject of this post by Desch was that the shift in anti-semitism these days seems to me to be that Zionist Jews are now the biggest supporters of, and believers in, negative Jewish stereotypes. Zionist Jews are the ones insisting that “real Jews” care more for Israel than they do for the countries in which they live, and “real Jews” should care more for (“real”) Jews than they do for anyone else. And “real Jews” can only BE “real Jews” by supporting Israel or making aliyah (“ascent”) to Israel. No religious conviction necessary, just a tribal affiliation with other “real Jews” and the ability to demand that all other “real Jews” follow this anti-semitic Jewish stereotype. ( And don’t forget the Zionist insistence that Jews can only “self-govern” when they have a Jewish state. )
Tree, no one says it better than the ubiquitous (how’s that for an anti-Semitic slur? Mind you, I meant it to sting!) “eee”:
“The Jews are a people that have self-determined themselves”
Problem is, they do it in the road and frighten the automobiles.
I wish I could remember the provenance of the quote but I paraphrase “Antisemites used to to be people who didn’t like Jews, now it seems to be people Jews don’t like”
“Hmm where else have I heard that sort of thing?”
Watch out for the Secular Humanists!
How long do you think the crude propagandist/hasbarist shamir is going to last on this site? Already ALL his talking points have be dumped into one single thread! One unfortunate thing, a mistake, is to allow him to frame the discussion when he should NOT be responded to..Better ignored for being too basic, too crude a life form.
I give him 3 days.
Yonira, you’re getting married in three days? Mazel Tov, and I hope you have many of your Jewish children.
What’s the blushing bride’s name? Would you send me an inscribed matchbook or Yamulke from the wedding? Oh, I get the floral centerpiece from my table, gosh, that’s nice!