Headline says it all

Israel/Palestine
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Haaretz:

Turkey to Israel: If you have nothing to hide, accept international probe.

The pressure is mounting on Israel to allow an international investigation of the flotilla raid. This is the other shoe dropping. The first was Goldstone.

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  1. Chu
    June 7, 2010, 9:05 am

    impossible. They’ll never accept it because they are guilty. What sane Navy boards a ship in the dark of night by announcing itself with sound grenades. Their intent was for a skirmish. It’s bunk, so they’ll use their victim card, but the only takers are the US media and it’s congress.

    • potsherd
      June 7, 2010, 9:15 am

      And they have certainly already destroyed as much of the incriminating evidence as they could get their hands on.

    • melka
      June 7, 2010, 9:56 am

      Unfortunately, it’s not just the US, but some European countries too. I can only speak about what I know, so I’ll just say that France is once again being very “shy” on the subject, politicians and medias.

      • potsherd
        June 7, 2010, 10:09 am

        Last time I saw, Sarkoszy was urging BYahoo to accept the commission.

        • melka
          June 7, 2010, 10:33 am

          I may sound radical, but I can’t believe that France, known as the country of the revolution and the human rights etc…, and our Minister of Foreign Affairs, Bernard Kouchner, who founded Doctors Without Borders and Doctors Of The World, have less courage than say Unite, the largest British Union, or the Docker’s Union of Sweden, who both said they are boycotting Israel’s good as they did with South African during the Apartheid.
          Declarations in front of a microphone are not enough.

      • Shmuel
        June 7, 2010, 10:45 am

        melka,

        You lucky bastard! You have Sarko and French TV. Try living with Berlusconi and Italian TV! Wanna trade? ;-)

        Italian state TV, in case you were wondering, referred to the passengers on the Mavi Marmara as “friends of Hamas”.

        • Mooser
          June 7, 2010, 11:15 am

          Shmuel, Italy makes Ducati and possibly even better, Aprilla motorcycles. Why would anyone watch TV?

        • Shmuel
          June 7, 2010, 11:18 am

          Point taken, Mooser. In fact, I haven’t got a TV (or a motorcycle, but that’s another story).

        • demize
          June 7, 2010, 1:19 pm

          Ahh, Motto Guzzi!

  2. Chaos4700
    June 7, 2010, 9:12 am

    Pretty damning and direct, considering the same thing has been demanded of Iran vis-a-vis its nuclear program, and Iran did allow the international inspectors in.

    I think this is the turning point where Israel must either surrender its atavism and become an actual modern nation… or declare war on the the rest of the modern world.

  3. Oscar
    June 7, 2010, 9:28 am

    Frankly, I don’t understand why Israel needs to be involved at all, unless they want to volunteer. Turkey can simply take the eyewitness accounts of the 600 passengers and compile a Goldstone-type report.

    And does an imvestigation of this sort even matter? As Potsherd noted, the evidence is already either destroyed, compromised or altered. The ship will be returned to Turkey scrubbed of any blood. All the photographic evidence was seized.

    Seems the proper course of action is for Turkey to lead an investigation into the timetable of what happened, based on the eyewitness accounts of the surviving passengers.

  4. gingershot
    June 7, 2010, 9:48 am

    Israel has two options – both of which are disastrous for her. That an international investigation is going forward with or without her is not one her options

    1- Refuse participation in an international investigation – as she did with Goldstone. Many in Israel (even rightwing) have called this a great strategic blunder ever since

    2- Participate in an international investigation and accept the consquences. If it it shown that she has commited an act of terror then the Israeli occupation of Palestine will start to fall like the house of cards it is

    • Psychopathic god
      June 7, 2010, 10:47 am

      just finished listening to (and taking complete notes on) a discussion of the flotilla conducted at Carnegie Endowment.

      gotta digest the notes, but this stuck out:

      NO mainstream press representative asked a question (from the audience).

      The ONLY question from the audience that mentioned Israel came from the VOA reporter, who asked, “How is Israel’s security to be guaranteed?” and “What can legitimate Israel’s investigation of this incident?”
      my take: Voice Of America = Voice of Israel

      phooey

    • Citizen
      June 7, 2010, 10:57 am

      The Israeli ambassador was on Fox New this morning, refusing to OK any outside investigation. Would the US allow such? he asked. Fox news host agreed No, nodding in agreement.

  5. Howard
    June 7, 2010, 9:54 am

    It seems very simple and straightforward to me. If there were any footage on any of the confiscated videos of the incident taken by passenger, crew or journalists that was favorable to Israel’s case they would have made it public by now. The fact that they haven’t leads me to believe there in nothing in them that strenthens their position or discredits the accounts by the activists. Most likely any unedited videos would show that Israel used excessive force. I think you can take that to the bank.

    • chet
      June 7, 2010, 1:20 pm

      Why has the world-wide MSM, which has a vested interest in the issue, failed to harshly criticize Israel’s confiscation of video and other media material and now, its failure to make it public?

  6. potsherd
    June 7, 2010, 10:12 am

    Things are heating up well beyond the matter of an investigation.

    Ergodan is saying he will sail to Gaza on an armed ship. Israel says they will consider this an act of war and fire on it.

    And the Iranian Red Crescent is now saying it will send two ships to Gaza.

    If there are any sane persons around in Israel, they had better take charge NOW.

    • potsherd
      June 7, 2010, 10:14 am

      Adding: this is why we are supposed to have a UN.

      And the reason we don’t is largely owing to the Israel situation.

      • demize
        June 7, 2010, 1:25 pm

        This should have invoked the NATO common defense charter. From what I hear the non US. Contingent in Brussels is absolutly outraged.

    • Psychopathic god
      June 7, 2010, 10:57 am

      Erdogan risks overplaying his hand.

      • lysias
        June 7, 2010, 11:02 am

        Ha’aretz seems to think what Erdogan has been doing is extremely popular with the Turks: Assad: Syria prepared to act against Israel’s siege of Gaza:

        The fallout from an Israel raid on a Turkish ship could bring forward elections in Turkey as the government moves to capitalize on a wave of popular support for its anti-Israel policies, according to press reports in the country on Monday.

        Erdogan’s moderate Islamist AK party believes its harsh condemnation of Israel, which last week killed nine activists when it raided six protest boats led by the Turkish ship ‘Mavi Marmara’, could deliver a landslide in the polls.

        • potsherd
          June 7, 2010, 11:20 am

          As the actions of Barack/Yahoo are extremely popular with the Jewish Israelis.

        • Chaos4700
          June 7, 2010, 8:09 pm

          Israel’s doing what no one before could have accomplished — uniting the Arabs, Turks and other NATIVE people of the Middle East behind a common threat to their safety and security.

      • potsherd
        June 7, 2010, 11:25 am

        I agree, psycho. The worst fallout from this flotilla thing, from Yahoo’s point of view, has been the total diversion of attention from his “kill Iran” project. But if the blockade-breaking efforts bring in Iran, he will certainly take the opportunity to start his long-desired war.

        We really need those sane people.

        • Justice Please
          June 7, 2010, 4:26 pm

          “The worst fallout from this flotilla thing, from Yahoo’s point of view, has been the total diversion of attention from his “kill Iran” project.”

          That’s why he right now most likely sits with eihter a extremist unit of the Mossad or some mercaneries and plans a false-flag terror bombing against western targets to be blamed on Iran, to geht the as you call it “kill Iran”-project back on track.

        • Bumblebye
          June 7, 2010, 5:02 pm

          Someone’s trying:
          link to gilad.co.uk

          In fact, it’s worth looking at all gilad’s post 31/5 writings:
          link to gilad.co.uk

      • demize
        June 7, 2010, 1:23 pm

        Sometimes it takes balls, something Obama was born lacking as he is a neuter.

        • Avi
          June 7, 2010, 5:52 pm

          Erdogan’s Foreign Minister stated over the weekend that Erdogan does not plan to sail himself, he even chuckled at the suggestion that the Turkish Prime Minister would do so.

  7. kalithea
    June 7, 2010, 10:15 am

    I don’t know if anyone has noticed this, but there are a bunch of new Israeli apologist bloggers on the threads dealing with Israel on the Huffington Post. They’re crawling up and down those threads and multiplying like cockroaches. I mean I recognize the usual suspects, but there are perhaps triple the usual number or more spreading the hasbara real thick.

    • melka
      June 7, 2010, 10:26 am

      Did you hear about Megaphone ?
      It’s a software from GIYUS.org (Give Israel Your United Support) that you install and warns you when somebody finds some anti-Israel blog post, forum, etc… Hasbara 2.0 in a way. It’s frightening.
      link to giyus.org

      • Psychopathic god
        June 7, 2010, 10:55 am

        on the orange blog, to use the word ‘hasbara’ or to mention GIYUS is to invite banning.

        where are all those pro-Israel blog responses coming from: here’s one: link to schusterman.org

        • potsherd
          June 7, 2010, 11:22 am

          And yet the orange blog”s membership has now turned radically against Israeli actions, despite the obvious disapproval of its Zionist proctors, who cling to the old prohibitions.

    • Shmuel
      June 7, 2010, 10:39 am

      A friend (an Israeli living abroad) received an e-mail from the Israeli Ministry of “Public Diplomacy” (aka Hasbara), asking all Israelis “to take part in the hasbara … In light of calls for the destruction of Israel, its isolation and the laying of blame entirely on the IDF, a clear and straightforward response must be given regarding the flotilla affair, the reasons for stopping it, and the importance of continuing to deny arms to Hamas.” The letter lists 3 main talking points, and online resources.

      Wonder if that might have something to do with the surge at Huffpo.

      • potsherd
        June 7, 2010, 11:22 am

        Which 3 talking points are they pressing now?

        • Shmuel
          June 7, 2010, 11:31 am

          Which 3 talking points are they pressing now?

          From “Letter to Israeli citizens”, signed Ronen Plot, Director General, Ministry of Hasbara and Diaspora:

          1. It is not the Palestinian people (sic!) that is under blockade, but the terrorist regime of Hamas in Gaza.
          2. On the flotilla, civilians were cynically exploited by extremist organisations.
          3. A distinction should be made between the desire to help the residents of Gaza, and aid to the regime of Hamas and the terrorist organisations, which is seeking an additional route to bring arms into Gaza.

        • potsherd
          June 7, 2010, 11:59 am

          Ah, the old classics!

          Nothing new and flotilla-specific.

        • Shmuel
          June 7, 2010, 12:11 pm

          The twist here (beyond the usual “we rock”, “they suck”) is that bleeding hearts are not evil; they’re just incredibly stupid (which I guess is a kind of variation on “they suck”).

        • NorthOfFortyNine
          June 7, 2010, 12:23 pm

          >> It is not the Palestinian people (sic!) that is under blockade…

          The “sic!” qualifier is about all you need to know, eh?

        • LeaNder
          June 7, 2010, 2:28 pm

          Pretty similar to RW’s main talking points. I am still puzzled how he could know Israel’s main line of defense a couple of days before it became the official Israeli line of argument.

        • Shmuel
          June 7, 2010, 3:00 pm

          how he could know Israel’s main line of defense a couple of days before it became the official Israeli line of argument.

          “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.”

        • Mooser
          June 7, 2010, 5:35 pm

          Shmuel, that was not nice.

      • MRW
        June 7, 2010, 3:06 pm

        A reminder of the 25 rules of Disinformation:

        Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

        1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil

        2. Become incredulous and indignant

        3. Create rumor mongers

        4. Use a straw man

        5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling, ridicule

        6. Hit and Run

        7. Question motives

        8. Invoke authority

        9. Play Dumb

        10. Associate opponent charges with old news

        11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions

        12. Enigmas have no solution

        13. Alice in Wonderland Logic

        14. Demand complete solutions

        15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions

        16. Vanish evidence and witnesses

        17. Change the subject

        18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad

        19. Ignore facts, demand impossible proofs

        20. False evidence

        21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor

        22. Manufacture a new truth

        23. Create bigger distractions

        24. Silence critics

        25. Vanish

        • MRW
          June 7, 2010, 3:10 pm

          The Eight Traits of The Disinformationalist:

          Eight Traits of The Disinformationalist

          1. Avoidance

          2. Selectivity

          3. Coincidental

          4. Teamwork

          5. Anti-conspiratorial

          6. Artificial Emotions

          7. Inconsistent

          8. Newly Discovered: Time Constant

          About this last one: 8) Recently discovered, with respect to News Groups (NG), is the response time factor. There are three ways this can be seen to work, especially when the government or other empowered player is involved in a cover up operation:

          1) ANY NG posting by a targeted proponent for truth can result in an IMMEDIATE response. The government and other empowered players can afford to pay people to sit there and watch for an opportunity to do some damage. SINCE DISINFO IN A NG ONLY WORKS IF THE READER SEES IT – FAST RESPONSE IS CALLED FOR, or the visitor may be swayed towards truth.

          2) When dealing in more direct ways with a disinformationalist, such as email, DELAY IS CALLED FOR – there will usually be a minimum of a 48-72 hour delay. This allows a sit-down team discussion on response strategy for best effect, and even enough time to ‘get permission’ or instruction from a formal chain of command.

          3) In the NG example 1) above, it will often ALSO be seen that bigger guns are drawn and fired after the same 48-72 hours delay – the team approach in play. This is especially true when the targeted truth seeker or their comments are considered more important with respect to potential to reveal truth. Thus, a serious truth sayer will be attacked twice for the same sin.

    • Chaos4700
      June 7, 2010, 8:11 pm

      It happened during the Gaza invasion too. And it’s not just people on the front end — for this sort of wave to work on a FULLY MODERATED site like HuffPo, there are moderators behind the scenes who are anything but moderate.

  8. Miss Dee Mena
    June 7, 2010, 10:31 am

    Syria has also said it will stand by Turkey in its efforts with Gaza. So with Iran cozying up to Turkey and planning to send a couple of aid ships, protected by the revolutionary guard frigates, the next few months should be quite hot. Oh and let’s not forget Hezbollah to Israel’s north and Hamas to its south who are also part of the deal.

    • lysias
      June 7, 2010, 10:35 am

      If there is war between Turkey and Israel, Turkey’s greatest military asset is its land forces, and Syria would be the route through which Turkish troops would have to go to get to Israel.

      • Miss Dee Mena
        June 7, 2010, 10:43 am

        Right and the Iranian military is no pushover either and they would be sure to join in.

        But one thing is that the Turkish military is traditionally very secular and there is currently some division between it and Erdogan’s ruling moderate Islamist party. Erdogan is hoping to gain more control over the military – which has traditionally been a strong ally of the Israelis – by riding the anti-Israel sentiment building up in Turkey over the deadly flotilla raid.

        • lysias
          June 7, 2010, 10:58 am

          The attack by the PKK Kurdish rebels on the Turkish naval base in Iskenderun near the Syrian border two hours before the Israeli attack on the flotilla cannot have made the Turkish military feel any more friendly towards Israel. A lot of people in Turkey, including people in the government, are strongly inclined to believe the two attacks were coordinated.

        • Miss Dee Mena
          June 7, 2010, 11:02 am

          Israel does have a history of arming and supporting the Kurds.

        • lysias
          June 7, 2010, 11:35 am

          Juan Cole links to an article on the subject of the Iskenderun attack: Suspicion growing about possible link between PKK and Israel:

          Amid the growing outrage over an Israeli attack on civilian ships in international waters that killed nine Turkish pro-Palestinian activists and wounded dozens last week, there is deepening suspicion about the possible Israeli involvement in the killing of seven soldiers in a terrorist rocket attack on a naval base in İskenderun, in the southern province of Hatay.

          Turkish intelligence organizations are looking into possible connections between the two incidents that occurred on the same day only hours apart. The terrorist act was carried out by the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), an outlawed organization that has been listed as terrorist group both in Turkey and in much of the international community. Analysts claim Israeli secret services may have contracted the job to the PKK to send a message to the Turkish government.

        • potsherd
          June 7, 2010, 12:00 pm

          The irony in this is so thick I can’t breathe!

    • melka
      June 7, 2010, 10:52 am

      There’s also the question (as in any war) of Oil. Two major oil fields are on the border of Gaza’s territorial water and Lebanon’s water. Turkey’s is also a major route for every pipeline coming from Azerbaijan and the Caspian Sea.
      link to globalresearch.ca
      link to rense.com
      link to worldpress.org

  9. BluePearl
    June 7, 2010, 11:02 am

    Passengers grabbed Israeli weapons to stop the killing. Eyewitness account.

  10. kalithea
    June 7, 2010, 11:03 am

    Something’s bothering me…and it’s somewhat off topic I know, but I feel compelled to bring it up. Helen Thomas who is one of the most honest voices in the Washington press corps, who’s been speaking truth to power for decades and who is one of the only people with the guts to call out Presidents on their unblinking support of Israel is being trashed by the Right, the Lobby and the Hasbara army and her illustrious career is going down in flames and there is not one mention of her on this site.

    What’s the matter? Has she suddenly become radio-active material? Not only was she trapped by the Rabbi, but her words were directed specifically at “Israeli” Jews, and had she spoken those words about South African whites and how they should be deported to their country of origin if that’s what it would take to stop Apartheid, there would not be a peep from the Jewish community. Instead Liberal Jews are crucifying her all over!

    It’s time to define the sides now! It’s time to be really honest about Zionism, the Lobby’s influence and Israel and its crimes if the intent is to really tackle the injustice and not merely to whine and complain to appease our conscience.

    Now everyone knows she meant ZIONISM SHOULD PACK ITS BAGS AND GO BACK WHERE IT CAME FROM…is this radioactive, or is this what it will take to bring LASTING PEACE and JUSTICE???

    Let’s have some honesty please!

    • Miss Dee Mena
      June 7, 2010, 11:08 am

      There was an entire post on M/W dedicated to the Helen Thomas issue. Just go back to previous posts.

    • demize
      June 7, 2010, 1:32 pm

      Looks like the old gal has packed it in and called it a day. Bastards!

  11. Citizen
    June 7, 2010, 11:03 am

    Israel’s only Muslim ally was Turkey; they had military maneuvers together, etc. But Israel didn’t like Turkey’s independence regarding Iran (neither did the USA) and now, of course, Israel deems Turkey another arch foe–I imagine that’s how Uncle Sam would be treated if it ever gave Israel a tad of tough love. Anyway, the USA’s special relationship with Israel has lost a tad of glue? Next thing you know, somebody on primeTV News might actually spell out for all Americans a bit of truth regarding our bestest ally in the world, the only one sharing our highest values.

  12. potsherd
    June 7, 2010, 12:14 pm

    More breaking news: Egypt says the Rafah crossing will be open indefinitely.
    link to haaretz.com

    • Shmuel
      June 7, 2010, 12:19 pm

      Do you know who and what they are letting in and following what procedure? I find it hard to believe that Egypt has simply ended the siege.

      • Shmuel
        June 7, 2010, 12:20 pm

        who and what they are letting in – and out, of course.

      • Les
        June 7, 2010, 2:54 pm

        I couldn’t agree more. Mubarak has been happy to supply guards for the west wall of the Gaza concentration camp even during Operation Cast Lead.

      • Chaos4700
        June 7, 2010, 8:14 pm

        Maybe, but I dare say internal pressure in Egypt over Mubarak’s collaboration with Israel and the US has reached a boiling point. It’s not like he wants to end up like Pinochet, or the Shah of Iran.

        • RoHa
          June 8, 2010, 7:31 am

          He and his ilk should end up like Mussolini and Ceausescu.

  13. javs
    June 7, 2010, 1:04 pm

    just like all others in which they hide behind the convienant laws put into place to hide their actions, they are chosen ones, whom do not have to follow the laws of common man, they make them up as they go along. They answer to no one ever!
    The apartheid must end, with every country in the world demanding it, are you listening hilary? oh I forgot she is in bed with the aparthied ,sorry. Words are not going to sufice anymore!! the actions must be taken to stop this 60+ years of massacre and deception by the zionist state aparthied.
    Helen thomas said it right on the money, poland and germany and the countries which are your home are still awaiting the return of their citizens, russia is having a population crissis. End the occupation, right of return & damages compensation must be sought. There are a lot of guilty people, we will need many more jails. The discraceful actions of the media must be halted immediately, there must be a law on the books internationally for the countries which allow the media to spread lies and deceive their citizens, and to falsely accuse a people that they just hate our way of life, is completely unfounded. They just hate the terrorism in which is being done to them, just as anyone would, if the rolls were reversed.

    • Walid
      June 7, 2010, 1:34 pm

      Real fun and games about to start: Iran sending 2 ships next week.

      • potsherd
        June 7, 2010, 3:12 pm

        Not warships, Red Crescent ships

        • potsherd
          June 7, 2010, 3:12 pm

          Which, of course, Israel will bomb anyway, on the grounds that everything from Iran is diabolical and meant to kill all the Jews.

  14. Les
    June 7, 2010, 2:57 pm

    link to independent.co.uk

    By contrast, a group of 10 apparently senior Israeli naval reserve officers last night wrote to Mr Netanyahu demanding an external enquiry and rejecting “widespread claims” of a failure of intelligence or public relations. Instead, the officers said, “We think that the plan was doomed to failure from the beginning.”

    The letter added: “We protest the fact that responsibility for the tragic results was immediately thrust onto the organisers of the flotilla. This demonstrates contempt for the responsibility that belongs principally to the hierarchy of commanders and those who approved the mission. This shows contempt for the values of professionalism, the purity of weapons and for human lives.”

    • Psychopathic god
      June 7, 2010, 6:04 pm

      “purity of weapons.”

      quaint.

      pure pepperspray in the paintball guns?

      • Chaos4700
        June 7, 2010, 8:15 pm

        I actually heard there were splinters of glass in the paintballs. I suppose we’ll have to see what Turkey’s autopsy and medical reports will show.

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