As the “peace talks” are about to get under way in Washington, Hamas has decided to remind us all of its vitality by executing four settlers. According to the New York Times article, Hamas claimed that the attack was “a natural response to the crimes of the Israeli occupation and its settlers” and demonstrates that the “armed Palestinian resistance is present in the West Bank despite the war to uproot it.”
Hamas, and all Palestinians, have good reason to be pissed off. The Washington peace conference excludes any recognition of Hamas, principally because it has blood on its hands –– a tiny percentage of the blood on Israel’s hands. The Palestinian representative at these talks is a pathetic, impotent figure whose popular support among his supposed constituents is laughable. The sponsor for the talks is the most powerful country in the world, which has consistently given unwavering military, economic and diplomatic support to the other side, regardless of questions of international law and common decency. More generally, Israel is in its 44th year of imposing a military dictatorship over millions of people that has no signs of abating, and is engaging in its umpteenth maneuver to extend such control indefinitely while feigning a willingness to relinquish it.
But are any of these reasons to murder four people in cold blood? Was it necessary to prove that the Hamas-less conference in Washington was a charade? Couldn’t it collapse under its own weight?
What is Hamas thinking? It has shown that “armed Palestinian resistance is present” all right, but also that it can act as murderously and stupidly as the government it fights against. Apart from the moral unacceptability of randomly killing human beings, Hamas’s outrage seems doomed to backfire. The world’s view of the situation is finally changing.
The horrors of Gaza and the Mavi Marmara have focused much-needed attention on Israeli violence, and earned Hamas somewhat of a pass for its own past deeds.
Many are finally realizing that excluding Hamas from peace talks with Israel because of its history of violence is absurdly hypocritical. Now Hamas has placed its own murderous predisposition front and center, ceding the moral high ground to Netanyahu, a development that appeared nearly impossible a few days ago. And, if Israel reacts in its usual bloodthirsty and arbitrary fashion, innocent Palestinians, whose only offense is their ethnicity, will die.
American politicians will fall over themselves to get to the microphone to applaud Israel’s exercise of its “right to self-defense” and “deterrence” by demonstrating that “there is a high price to pay for Jewish blood.” The Jews of Israel aren’t going anywhere. They are there to stay, and the only question is whether they will insist on maintaining a cruel and unjust system in which they dominate and control, and dispossess and occasionally kill, the indigenous Palestinian population, or whether they accept true equality.
I think equality is inevitable, both morally and historically, but the time it takes to arrive at that resolution is dependent in large part on worldwide opinion. Hamas has just done its best to postpone that outcome.
I agree that Hamas has postponed every possible good outcome.
It threatens to repeat.
The action lays to rest the assertion that Hamas has changed. Palestinian solidarity that is deferring to the electoral will of the Palestinian people (the 2006 electoral will), is deferring to a revived terror advocacy.
“We have the power to fuck things up”, is NOT the credentials for governance.
Yes, Witty. The Arabs are ALWAYS to blame.
God, you’re so painfully racist it hurts. Seham posts articles of IDF soldiers attacking civilians on a daily basis now, and you Nakba-deny them out of your attention span. One incident happens where the barest fraction of Israelis die relative to the human cost that the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of vicious IDF soldiers and pogrom-waging settlers, and suddenly that is the deal-breaker.
This is idiotic. Israel did the SAME EXACT THING that Hamas has just done, on November 4th 2008, as far as motivation goes. When it’s Jews, you justify; when it’s Arabs, you condemn.
You’re a racist, plain and simple.
>> “We have the power to fuck things up”, is NOT the credentials for governance.
And yet you have no trouble with Israeli leadership. You are an amazing hypocrite.
I have a great deal of trouble with much Israeli leadership. Where did you get the idea that I didn’t?
The notion that the Israeli government can steal land on the West Bank and you argue that the Palestinians need to “live with it” and settle for land swaps in the Negev Desert (where, you know, the Bedouins are living, or were until they started being ethnically cleansed too — another set of articles you COMPLETELY IGNORED here). Or how about the Israelis slaughtering nine humanitarian aid volunteers — one of them a 19-year-old American citizen — and you insisting that the act of piracy and murder in international waters was justified because, clearly, unarmed citizens on ships leaving from heavily custom-checked European ports must be suspected terrorists.
Shall I go on?
>> I have a great deal of trouble with much Israeli leadership.
The language you use when you discuss the Israeli leadership – as compared with the language you use when discussing Hamas (the democractially-elected Palestinian leadership) – belies your assertion.
Oh — there was also you defending the authority and honor of that genocidal rabbi, recently. That sort of runs counter to the idea that you reject Zionist policies.
Because, despite your posturing as a liberal, you’ve never proposed any action with a realistic chance of bringing about a change in the behaviour of Israel’s Government(s).
Let us call that “appeasement”. You can work out the rest of that, I’m sure.
“I have a great deal of trouble with much Israeli leadership. Where did you get the idea that I didn’t?”
Yes Witty, you have trouble with much Israeli leadership, but you wil always heap the blame on the Palestinians for the actions of the Israeli leadership you have trouble with.
Mr Witty.
The mad dog mentality embraced and spread by M.Dyan ( “dont mess with mad dog”) still holds true in Israel.Van Creveld , the Professor has endorsed this view not in exact words of Dyan but in the path that Israel would/could take against European !
this is mind-numbing, blood-thirsty stupidity. who benefits from this, other than bibi and the settler movement? is this a sign, as suggested elsewhere, of a deep division within hamas itself, or something else?
as far as ‘terror advocacy’, a state of civil war exists in israel, with various factions and proxies advancing political positions through what amounts to murder. prepackaged labels like ‘terror’ and ‘terrorism’ have little value beyond propaganda.
The Samson Option, the atheist jewish final solution Hagee so longs for: link to youtube.com
“We have the power to fuck things up”, is NOT the credentials for governance.”
NOT, that is, unless you are Benjamin Netanyahu.
link to youtube.com
“We have the power to fuck things up”, is NOT the credentials for governance.
Twenty-two Palestinians have killed by Israel since the murderous raid on the flotilla. That’s 22, a combination of civilians and militants.
Who exactly is “fucking things up”?
Yeah. I mean let’s get real here. It takes a lot of nerve to say Hamas has a “murderous predisposition”. This sounds racist Orientalism. It’s in their very nature to murder…come on man take another look at reality please
Statistics source:
link to pchrgaza.org
Today you agree, but yesterday regarding David Samel’s posts on Hizbollah you called him a propagandist.
How did David Samel suddenly earn your trust and confidence? What happened to change your opinion?
Don’t answer that. The answer is obvious.
And speaking of good outcomes, what about November 4th, 2008? That was the day, after all, when Israel violated the 6 months ceasefire which led to a BAD OUTCOME.
P.S. , RW, it would be nice if you could be more consistent. Then at least you’d earn some credibility.
Avi ~ yes, the answer is obvious Avi. RW isn’t interested in credibility, just trolling, and here’s proof:
link to mondoweiss.net
I’m requesting that RW is banned permanently for trolling, and would like appreciate peoples input.
Sumud he’s the lowest of the low. A troll with delusions of grandeur when he should be contemplating delusions of adequacy instead. There is nothing worse than a racist who tries to disguise his bigotry in civility and pretentious terms. I ignore his existence and wish others would stop feeding and stroking his gargantuan ego and making him feel relevant. But this is freedom of speech I guess.
Don’t hold your breath, Sumud.
RW is apparently a relative of Phillip Weiss. As such, Phillip finds it difficult to ban him. Furthermore, requests by peons like you and I are meaningless since we’re not in the same club of high minded individuals to which Phillip belongs, so we’re in no position to tell him what to do or how to run his website.
“I agree that Hamas has postponed every possible good outcome.”
Was the ceasfire of 2008 not a possible good outcome Witty? Israel postponed that didn’t they?
Netehyahu admitted to sabotaging the Olso accords. Were they not a good outcome?
Barak has admitted that Begin went into Lebanon in 1982 to stall the process towards a 2 state solution. Was that not a possible good outcome?
The killing of the 4 Israeli civilians was of course very wrong and there is no justification for it. This must have been music to Israel’s ears that will refer to it at every opportunity. It was stupid of Hamas to have done it as it was stupid of Israel to be shutting out Hamas from all talks.
ditto
It is the US that is hosting these talks and handing out the invitations – or not.
I don’t know enough about individual Hamas leaders to say, but based on their history they’ve got a mixture of bloody-minded killers and pragmatists in their organization. (Of course, some people could be a mixture of both). Same as Israel, for that matter. Same as the US government too.
The suicide bombing attacks of several years ago were mindless acts of revenge–all they did, on top of murdering Israeli civilians, was give propaganda cover for Israel’s larger acts of mass murder. That’s all this will do. Plus it hands the anti-Hamas people in the West a free propaganda victory. After years of relative restraint to throw it all away for the glory of shooting a pregnant woman–well, morality aside, it’s just stupid machismo. You probably get a lot of that in a resistance organization.
All that repeats what you said, David. But the reason they did it–well, it’s presumably to impress the hardliners on their own side. It’s utterly shortsighted and has nothing at all to do with what’s best for the Palestinian people–it’s just one group of idiots demonstrating to others that they’re “tough” enough to deserve to lead. Americans and Israelis ought to understand that dynamic well enough.
It’s a strange story. It is very probable that Israel authorities have their own people at high level of Palestinian resistance, and would use them to call in a terrorist attack whenever it is politically convenient. Like it was in Russia during its “war on terror” at the end of XIX-beginning of XX cc.: there the top leaders of the military wing of SR party (the terrorist organization Russian government fought against) were for the most time agents provocateurs of the government (see e.g. link to en.wikipedia.org
and link to en.wikipedia.org
).
Sasha, that Israeli connection was the first thing that came to my mind but I discarded it when I heard Hamas claiming credit for it. Now if Hamas would come out and say it had nothing to do with it, we’d be back to your idea that Israel is somehow behind it but until then, we have to condemn these cold-blooded executions.
Richard Silverstein has a really excellent commentary on the Qassam Brigade attack.
link to richardsilverstein.com
I’m posting this twice as the double-standards and hypocrisy make me want to pull my hair out.
I’ve just returned from the village of Bani Naim which is currently encircled by the IDF. The attack on the settlers was very stupid from a political point of view as it gives ammunition to both the intransigent Israeli government to sell itself once again as a “victim” in the P/I conflict. It also allows the settlers to pull the victim card.
However, I don’t for a nano-second buy the theory of the settlers being “innocent civilians” apart from perhaps the women and children. The men carry weapons and they serve in the IDF. The settlements are quasi-military outposts. When you have seen a Palestinian village under curfew as six of these “innocent civilians” march through the streets armed to the teeth shooting randomly and often killing; burning fields; slaughtering livestock; vandalising mosques; poisoning wells; running over and killing many pedestrians in apparent “accidents” and stealing land and homes, the concept of “innocent” flies by the way.
Although the shooting of the pregnant woman was indefensible, the huge outcry over the death of a few Israeli civilians compared to the almost daily killing of Palestinian civilians which hardly makes the news is nauseating in its hypocrisy. Spare me the double-standards already. It is high time these nasty, illegal squatters got the hell out of the West Bank and left the locals alone.
If one wanted to be really vindictive one could argue that the Palestinians have a load of slaughtering to do to even begin to catch up fractionally with the large numbers of civilians killed by the IDF.
It’s SOP for revolutionary movements to deliberately provoke brutal retaliation from the oppressors. Hamas is trying to foment internal dissent among the Palestinian population by demonstrating that support for the Abbas regime’s appeasement will only result in more Israeli brutality.
When Joseph Campbell was a little boy he lived next door to the library in New Rochelle, NY, where he was given access to archival material about American Indians, their culture, and the way they were mistreated by European Americans.
At the same time, travelling shows (Will Rogers? doing this from memory, not notes) featured cowboys ‘n Indians ‘n recounted lore of buffalo hunts ‘n life taming the prairie of them Injuns.
Young Campbell’s research made it impossible for him to “other” Indians; he understood, at a very young age, their humanity, and struggled to square his understanding with the popular treatment — the propagandized, dehumanized version of Indians that he saw in the entertaining, mass-appeal traveling shows.
Our mainstream media is certainly entertainment, not information, and is most assured calibrated to dehumanize the “other” du jour; in Campbell’s day, American Indians, as well as Negroes; in S. Africa, Blacks; in Germany, the Hun; in Viet Nam, gooks; in Iraq, A-rabs; in Palestine, Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians; in Iran, Iranians; in Lebanon, Iranians; within Israeli society, Ashkenazi perceive Mizrahi as the “other.”
Man is not a killer by nature; he can only kill an “other.”
Campbell’s hours in the library in New Rochelle shaped his life and prodded him to pursue his research into the mythologies of various and numerous cultures. I have learned a great deal from his work, among other things, the twin importances of myths and of reliance on fact and truth.
The American Indian was not an alien “other” whose humiliation Joseph Campbell was free to cheer, even if all his young mates cheered the lassoing of an Indian Chief as if he were cattle. He had the courage to act in opposition to the masses.
So must we.
Miss de mena,
Individuals are responsible for crimes, not classes of people, not “the settlers”, “them”.
>> Individuals are responsible for crimes, not classes of people, not “the settlers”, “them”.
It’s good to know that you will no longer hold the class of people labelled “Hamas” responsible for the crimes of individuals.
…Unless they’re Hamas. Then no apartment building, hospital or UN facility isn’t fair game.
The racist double-speak you’re forwarding is reaching absurd levels of hypocrisy at this point.
Hamas is an organization with a command and responsibility structure.
It as an organization is accountable for its actions.
Holding Palestinians in general accountable for the actions of Hamas would be irresponsible. That would be collective punishment.
“collective punishment” is what zionism, israel and the usa are all about at point with regard to the palestinians…
Right Chaos. We all know that all of the more than 1,400 Palestinians killed in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead were Hamas members including the 300+ children killed.
And again the settlers belong to the Yesha Council of Settlers, an organisation, which armed to the teeth works in conjunction with the IDF by using force of arms to kill, steal and plunder. Excuse me while I barf at the continuing hypocrisy and double-standards.
“Hamas is an organization with a command and responsibility structure.”
Isn’t the IDF an organization with a command and responsibility structure Witty? Didn’t they massacre 600 women and children in Gaza and even more in Lebanon 2006?
>> Holding Palestinians in general accountable for the actions of Hamas would be irresponsible. That would be collective punishment.
There you have it, folks – it’s time to lift the blockade of Gaza!
That’s a fair point, and I always go back to America and its race relations in the 50′s and 60′s when thinking about these things. There were riots in the 60′s (mostly in Northern towns, I think) and I’m guessing there were plenty of brutal white cops and other white racists who provoked them, but one draws the line at shooting pregnant women, even if they are racists themselves. I don’t think southern blacks rioted, but supposing some had gotten together and murdered KKK members one would still find it repugnant if a pregnant woman got shot.
As for the double standard you mention, almost everyone here (with the exception of someone like RW) probably agrees with you.
Also, as disgusted as I am with Hamas, it doesn’t change the fact that they need to be a part of the discussion and without preconditions. Nobody is placing any serious pre-conditions on Israel, which has killed far more people.
Egypt says Israel needs to stop its settlements on the eve of peace talks:
link to alertnet.org
David, I’ve questioned this timing also, but I am not living in an open air prison. And these settlers should not be on this land to begin with.
The Kaled Meshaal interview may reveal why this occurred.
But these peace talks are doomed from the start. Israel continues to
construct. Hamas is saying this is a sham. But ultimately, the media will scapegoat Hamas on the failed peace process.
There are some interesting points raised in the comments. First, I should have added the point made by marc b, Walid and Donald that some Israeli leaders no doubt greeted this news with at least ambivalence if not outright joy. It surely was a gift handed to Netanyahu when he needs it most.
In fact, I had the same reaction that Walid expresses in response to sasha’s theory of a false flag operation. When I first heard of the incident, I was quite shocked to hear that Hamas had claimed responsibility, and had to confirm it from several sources. I think that sasha is a little too loose in making this accusation, but not because it is inconceivable that Israel would pull a stunt like this. I think in the past Israeli leaders, especially Sharon, have intentionally provoked terrorist actions when they thought it necessary, despite the expected cost in Jewish blood, which of course is more valuable than other types. But the overwhelming evidence in this case is that what appears to be true, is true.
Miss Dee Meena’s sentiments are most interesting. I’m well aware that these settlers were not “innocents,” and considering where they were from, they quite possibly were among the most vicious of an illegal population numbering half a million. I didn’t call them innocent, though I did not discuss their relative guilt either (perhaps I should have). They surely are guilty of something, just as a shoplifter, a burglar, a rapist, and Bernie Madoff are. But in my opinion, they are not guilty of capital offenses and subject to extrajudicial execution. “Justice Please” makes a brief but excellent comment in the Ahmed Moor piece that Israeli jargon would excuse this shooting as an “extrajudicial assasination” of “individuals linked to terrorism.”
Also, Miss Dee raises another excellent point, summing up her remarks by saying, “If one wanted to be really vindictive one could argue that the Palestinians have a load of slaughtering to do to even begin to catch up fractionally with the large numbers of civilians killed by the IDF.” I agree with the sentiment but not with the word “vindictive”; I think it’s perfectly reasonable and appropriate to make that comparison. It still doesn’t excuse this atrocity, but does expose those who condemn only “Arab terrorism” while excusing far greater Israeli killing as hypocrites.
David I was referring more to the general attitude internationally vis a vis the double-standards and hypocrisy, not you as such.
However, I take exception to your claim that the settlers are not guilty of capital offenses. Indeed they are. Many Palestinian civilians have been killed in cold blood under questionable circumstances by the settlers who have for the most part not been brought to trial and in the few cases they have, they have been slapped on the wrist.
I’ve followed up at least three cases in the West Bank this year alone where settlers murdered Palestinians and self-defence was not the issue. You can validate this by checking out B’tselem and other Israeli human rights organisations.
Case in point Baruch Goldstein (I know he couldn’t be brought to justice as he was beaten to death in retaliation).
MDM, I didn’t feel you were accusing me of hypocrisy, and used your very thoughtful comment as an opportunity to add my thoughts about the settler aspect of this incident.
However, your latest comment forces me to clarify what I thought I had made obvious. I do not dispute that some settlers have engaged in murder and have gotten off scot-free or with minimal punishment. My point was about the settler-victims in this instance. It’s theoretically possible but highly unlikely that any of them ever killed Palestinians, but even more importantly, they were targeted for assassination solely because they were settlers, not for anything else they did. I do think that an adult voluntarily living as a settler is committing a criminal act, but not one deserving of the death sentence meted out to these four people for that criminal act. You cannot hold all settlers collectively responsible for the murders committed by some, even if a good percentage of them approve of or at least tolerate those murders. The settlers are responsible for their own actions only, and living beyond the green line is a non-capital offense. (I think murder is a non-capital offense as well, but that’s another long story.)
I see your point. I guess it boils down to settler support and responsibility in general for an iniquitous apartheid system that sometimes involves murder (even if they have not committed the murders in person), land-theft etc. Much like the civilian contractors in Iraq bear some responsibility (even if indirectly) for supporting the invasion of Iraq which has resulted in mass murder etc.
My main point is the hypocrites of the White House and to a lesser extent the EU when Palestinians are by far the main victims of indiscriminate murder.
What is Hamas thinking? Hamas is thinking that its immediate opponent is not Israel but the PLO/PA, and that’s who this attack is aimed at.
Good point, actually. Not only will the already daily attacks by Jewish Israeli soldiers and settlers increase in intensity, but Fatah is now forced to do Israel’s dirty work of raiding and arresting Palestinians en masse.
This incident was atrocious and Hamas deserves to be condemned for it… but I think ultimately, they’ve proven their point about who Abbas really works for.
The attack was aimed at the PA (murder), but Israelis were the ones killed.
Street cred.
No, Witty, the attack was aimed at Israeli civilians (civilians who had been placed in occupied land in defiance of international law by the Israeli government, but civilians nonetheless) in order to make a threat to Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah.
Kind of like how the IDF routinely aims attacks at civilians in Gaza in order to strike fear into the hearts of West Bank civilians. Oh! That’s right. You’re in Nakba-denial mode about the weekly attacks by the IDF on farms, fishing boats, and others on Gaza. You know. Attacks that are still happening. Possibly even right now, as you’re reading this.
Can you see the face of the Palestinians who are dying, now?
I thought not.
Did the IDF kill the 9 passnegers on the Mavi Marmara for stree cred Witty? After all, a lot of Israelis carrying Israeli flags flocked to the streets to celebrate.
link to counterpunch.org
Mahmoud Abbas: Double Agent
By JEFF BLANKFORT
SAMEL – “Hamas …has shown that “armed Palestinian resistance is present” all right, but also that it can act as murderously and stupidly as the government it fights against.”
That “murderously” ignores the plain legal situation.
Settlers are the permanent, armed occupation personnel of one of the most brutal and murderous military occupation regimes during a war of aggression started by the self-proclaimed Zionist entity in 1947; also they are outside the ceasefire line and conduct continual violent military acts against the local, exclusively civilian population. Short, they are just in the same situation as any armed resistance to illegal aggression and occupation and they have the right to resist by any and all means including armed attacks. No different thatn rarmed resistance to Nazi occupation in Europe during WWII, see Nuremberg principles.
It is not up to some American Zionist, to determine what they have the right to do. There are enough Zionists all over the place to draw the line past which “legitimate fight” in this war is not allowed by their standards. Suspect is not only the author of this piece, but also the blog owners, seeing how they censors clear definitions of the war situation.
“Apart from the moral unacceptability of randomly killing human beings, Hamas’s outrage seems doomed to backfire. The world’s view of the situation is finally changing.” This can be discussed, of course, even though you come across as overly optimistic.
David ~ I too was shocked that Hamas would do this. Strategically, it appears to have been very stupid. And of course, killing civilians (even settlers, who I agree w/ MDM: aren’t innocent) is just always wrong;
I’m always wary of statements supposedly by Palestinians appearing in non-Palestinian media. On the Qassam Brigades site I found:
‘E.Q.B respond to the Zionist violations in “Hebron”‘
link to qassam.ps
I don’t know how credible the statement is, but this is the incident EQB are claiming was the trigger:
‘Settlers fire at teenage Palestinian farmers’
link to qassam.ps
“The Jews of Israel aren’t going anywhere”.
I’m sorry to disappoint you, David Samel, but there’s no way in hell the jews of israel are staying in Palestine if they intend to continue practicing zionism.
They’re floating on a raft of dynamite called ‘zionism in the holy land’. They’ll never be able to dock that explosive raft at a permanat port-of-call in the middle east.
Yes Judaism was born from the middle east and has every right to blossom there, but zionism was not and it is being constantly forced upon the whole region. That’s why it will always and forever be rejected, resisted and downright despised by the whole region near and far.
Also, sorry to disappoint you again here but every Palestinian has the right, given them by international law, to resist/attack their occupier ANYWHERE within the 67 border. Israelis living as covetous thieves in the Palestinian West Bank are putting their own lives at risk because they are ALL armed illegal aliens. I’ll remind you that here at the USA/Mexico border, we’re shooting UNARMED church-going Mexican peasants for illegal crossings into the USA.
Besides, if the peace ‘talkers’ won’t allow the LEGITIMATE goverment of Hamas around the peace table, then they will most certainly be ‘hearing’ from them right outside the proverbial negotiating room.
The shooting incident was bound to happen. Nobody with any brains should be surprised at this.
Obama’s camp knew it would happen. Abbas’s camp knew it would happen. Natanyahu’s camp knew it would happen. That they should all feign shock and moral indignation is nothing short of a disgusting attempt at mass deception and an insult to standard homo sapien intelligence.
As for the mainstream media and the blogsphere take on the shooting, well like I dunno, this morning when I opened my Mondo page and read the first few headlines, I almost thought I was reading Fox-lite for all the finger-wagging at Hamas that I perused through.
The deaths of these settlers won’t change anything. Israel isn’t interested in peace and 4 dead settlers are far less important than Yesha and the colonisation of what remains of Palestine. The settlement machine builds on and nobody can stop it . The Palestinians were supposed to have melted into history by now. Israel still has no answer to the question of what happens the Palestinians . Building more settlements will destroy Israel but try telling that to Israel.