A response to “Sorry, Hamas, I'm Wearing Blue Jeans”, an article in Mother Jones written by Ashley Bates, currently doing journalism in the Gaza Strip, talking about Palestinian feminist Asma Al-Ghoul’s “defiant” confrontation with her Muslim society and dreams of building a secular one instead: I have particularly been offended—as are many Palestinian readers who are more aware of what is going on in Gaza and whose knowledge of the factual current situation is far deeper than any foreign journalist--by the grotesque language Bates used in this article.
I have encountered this critical phenomenon in most international printed and online media. It tends to take the Israeli narrative for granted while ignoring accuracy and truthful reporting. “Sorry, Hamas, I’m Wearing Blue Jeans” is one example, in which the writer misrepresents and shows a great deal of partiality in narrating the facts.
In her diatribe against Hamas, Bates clearly dedicates most of the article to talk about Hamas’s “new restrictive laws”, but uses only one single word to describe the siege—“devastating”. Was there not any more space to talk about the impact of the siege on the lives of more than 1.5 million people incarcerated in extreme poverty and inhumane conditions?
According to Bates, Gaza has been under siege “for three years." That’s not true. The siege had literally started when Israel implemented the “disengagement plan” or “Gaza expulsion plan” in August 2005.
As documented in all international and local organizations’ reports and investigations, the siege was never “aimed at isolating Hamas”, but rather a systematic war policy, collectively plunging a whole population into slow-motion genocide. Plus, what happened between Hamas and the PA in 2007 was not a “civil war”, but violent infighting in which Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip and the PA retreated to the West Bank; it was the result of a well-defined “divide and rule” tactic which Israel uses and has unremittingly continued to use to maintain a perpetual state of chaos within Palestinian life. And unfortunately the Palestinians fell for it: to date, there is little or no progress towards reconciliation, and efforts to end the split and establish a national unity seem as complicated as the so-called “peace process.”
By calling the Israeli massacre in which nearly 100 Palestinians, overwhelmingly civilians, were killed for each Israeli soldier, the "2008-2009 war between Israel and Hamas militants" the writer rescinds the findings of the famous Goldstone report, as well as of those other international human right organizations, which concluded that Israel had committed war crimes and human right violations against hundreds of civilians during the 23-day full-blown Israeli conflagration. So it was absolutely not a war against Hamas, but a premeditated pogrom to kill and destroy as much as Israel could.
Logically speaking, the vast majority of Gaza’s population is civilians; and supposedly, if the war was intended to target Hamas fighters--who Israel claimed were hiding in civilian densely populated areas—what chances did each rocket stand of avoiding killing civilians in this situation, in light of “a deliberately disproportionate attack” which, according to Goldstone’s report, was designed to “to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability.”
I thought the endeavor of doing journalism was to accurately cover the “statu quo” in the Gaza Strip and put much effort into getting the right message out to the broader world, but it turned out that some journalists manipulate the facts and, intentionally or unintentionally, are becoming agents of the Israeli propaganda.
Now as for Bates's specific claims of restrictions. Bates said: "Since then [control of Gaza], Hamas has introduced restrictive new laws, including prohibitions against women using male hairdressers or smoking hookah in public. Hamas police have shut down musical concerts and interrogated suspected couples. Principals at government schools have reportedly pressured even Christian girls to wear the Islamic headscarf."
This is not true, actually. Hamas didn't immediately start imposing its restrictions right after taking over. For example, it banned women from smoking hookah in public places in Sep. 2010. And, technically, this law is not as tight as often viewed in the media. If you dropped by any coffee shop in Gaza, you will find the number of women smoking water pipe even bigger than men themselves (I can let you talk to some women going to such places). Plus, I have never heard of a Christian made to wear the hijab. On the contrary, many Western countries, like France, have banned hijab. The Islamic University is the only place in which girls are equally required to put it on. You know...their education system. The Christian community is respected in Gaza. However, I'm not saying there haven't been bans by Hamas, but Bates obviously used hyperbole.
Mohammed Said AlNadi lives in Gaza. He last wrote for this site to ask What would you do if...?
Who has ever heard Mother Jones David Corn express or even whisper about fair and balanced U.S. policy responses in the I/P conflict.
The real Mother Jones would …but not David Corn. No way no how.
It does seem petty to bring up hookah smoking in the face of such deprivation that Israel is inflicting on Gaza. In this type of situation, everything else has to take a backseat to surviving another day. Once the nightmare is over, the men and women of Gaza have to face the issues all the rest of us must, including sorting of gender roles in a post-industrial society.
Israel has a policy of ensuring Gaza has no industry.
mohammed, color me extremely sceptical about this source.
During the 2007 civil war, Asma attended a journalism course in South Korea, where she published a scathing Arabic article titled, “Dear Uncle, Is This the Homeland We Want?” The article recalled fond childhood memories of her father’s brother, a Hamas military leader—then assailed him for turning against his own people and using the family home to interrogate and beat Fatah activists.
oh really. what kind of journalism course in South Korea???? this has cia written all over it. i am very curious what you think of this “Sharek Youth Forum” in gaza. this has gotten lots of publicity here byway of mass emailings. do you know anything about this group? one of the unusual aspects about the mother jones article (i think) is the link “Hamas’s recent shutdown of Sharek Youth Forum.” links to a maan article. i read maan a lot and i’m not recallig them ordinarily linking to other sites but in this article they do. they link to sharek’s home page. this is a very nice website for gaza. i can’t say i have seen an english website from gaza as user friendly and attractive as this. not only that but the maan article also links (or claims to link) to the palestine monitor, but if you follow the link it leads to some spam site. so there is some disinfo operation going on here imho.
also, this gazan woman who keeps complaining about all the death threats and the abuse of women in gaza, how is it she is still alive after all this time giving interviews to western reporters and walking around gaza in bluejeans?
btw, when i was in gaza i walked down the street in bluejeans and people didn’t even turn their heads and stare or anything.
anyway, what do you know of this sharek center?
also mohammed, that maan article sited was supposedly written by Jared Malsin. but here is Jared Malsin’s website where he posts his ma’an articles. this one is not on it. i remain very sceptical.
Annie, the story derailed when the American implication in Gaza’s woes was omitted, whether in the 2005 bogus “disengagement” or the Dahlan/USA -orchestrated PA failed overthrow of Gaza that brought down the roof on Gaza and has kept there since then. You are right to be skeptical.
Amira Hass has individual articles decrying Hamas’ restrictions as well.
Jews who support the inhuman Israeli persecution of Gaza because the persecutors are Jewish sicken me.
i seriously doubt amira hass supports the inhuman Israeli persecution of gaza. richard knows that which is why he’s channeling her now, sans link. hamas aren’t angels tho…but compared to israel? sheesh.
Annie, why does Israeli persecution and Hamas’ restrictions have to be independent of one another?
This is one thing that really strikes me as off with the anti-Israel group, your totally inability to criticize anything that doesn’t fit into the hate Israel mold.
Iran=good,
Hamas=good
Hezbollah=good
Israel=bad
PA/Egypt/Jordan=bad
can not sway, can not sway, can not sway……
Why did the author even comment on the Mother Jones article, Annie?
Just to go into a screed?
Many deflect criticism of Israel. Many deflect criticism of Hamas.
massive fail
inability to criticize anything that doesn’t fit into the hate Israel mold.
try talking to me w/out your ‘hate’ speech crutch. i don’t travel in hate.
Hamas=good
didn’t i just say hamas aren’t angels? but are they good for palestine under the israeli regime? well, i’d vote for them over fatah any day. they protect gazans against a global power out to ethnically cleanse them from their land, considering the imbalance of power this challenge is immense.
Witty continues to be on the same exact page as yonira. Apparently, liberal Zionists were housed in the same part of Noah’s ark where unicorns, fairies and honest finance executives were kept.
And millions do
The Great Amira Hass
Amira Hass: What Hamas is really afraid of
16 AUGUST 2010
By Amira Hass, Haaretz – 16 Aug 2010
www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-hamas-is-really-afraid-of-1.308264
Amira Hass
“I wish these pictures reached leftists abroad,” my friend said to herself Tuesday as she watched Hamas police use rifle butts and clubs to beat her friends – activists from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Although my friend has never been a fan of the Fatah government in the West Bank, she is outraged by the romanticization of Hamas rule by foreign activists.
Photographs of Tuesday’s protest will be hard to come by, as the Hamas police prevented photojournalists from doing their job. At some point, shots were fired into the air to disperse the PFLP protesters in Gaza City, a demonstration Hamas called an illegal gathering. Many protesters were injured and needed medical attention; others were detained for some time.
“We women weren’t physically attacked by the police,” my friend told me later on the phone. “They only swore at us.” The profanity, mostly variations on “whore,” was accompanied by words like “Marxist,” which the police see as an insult. They don’t need to know exactly what it means – it’s among dreadful words like atheism, communism and dialectic materialism. In other words, all the terms that don’t explain the world as Allah’s creation.
Hamas and the PFLP have a lot in common: opposition to the Oslo Accords, glorification of the armed struggle and opposition to direct negotiations with Israel. Many of the PFLP’s supporters, especially the younger ones, are also religiously observant. But in terms of social vision and ideological temperament, the gaps seem as wide as they were in the 1980s, when the Muslim Brotherhood aimed most of its attacks at “heretics,” especially the Palestinian left, then many times stronger than today.
Senior Hamas officials may watch their language when they talk with representatives of the depleted left, but the real attitude shines through in the conduct of younger activists and people lower in the hierarchy. They don’t stand so much on pretense and openly express the spirit of the times.
But it wasn’t Marxism that brought some 500 PFLP activists to the western end of Omar al-Mukhtar Boulevard in Gaza City, to Unknown Soldier Square in front of the Palestinian Legislative Council (or what was left of it after Operation Cast Lead ). The demonstrators came out to protest the electricity supply crisis in Gaza. Was this an odd choice for a rally by a veteran, proud political organization? Not in Gaza.
Since the beginning of the year, the residents of the Strip have been suffering from scheduled power cuts that last more than eight hours each day. Between 2006 and 2009, the European Union funded the industrial fuel used at the local power station. In November 2009 it was decided, together with the Ramallah government, that the Palestinian Authority will start paying for the diesel, in addition to the electricity bill it pays to Israel.
Since then, the quantity of fuel entering Gaza has fallen steadily. In the first week of August, for example, only 812,006 liters of diesel fuel – 23 percent of what is needed – entered the Strip. In Ramallah they claim that the company collecting electricity bills in Gaza is not doing its job properly and/or transfers some of the money to Hamas’ coffers. Hamas denies this. Ramallah also says Hamas is playing on the people’s suffering. The PFLP, through its protest, says it doesn’t believe either side, and that the supply of energy has fallen victim of a political rivalry.
According to Palestinian law, demonstrations, public assemblies and political meetings do not need a license from the authorities. The authorities only need to be informed to be able to direct traffic accordingly. On August 5, the PFLP told the Gaza authorities of the protest.
“They said to us there’s no need for the protest because the problem has been solved,” one activist told Haaretz. “We said this was wrong and that the crisis was still going on. We held discussions with Hamas and the Interior Ministry. They insisted we may not protest. We insisted we may.”
“By ‘sheer coincidence,’ an hour and a half before our protest, Hamas women came out in large numbers to the same place to demonstrate in support of the government on the electricity issue, with loudspeakers. When we arrived, hundreds of police with clubs and rifles were waiting, while the driver of the truck that carried our loudspeakers left the place very quickly, following a request from the police,” the activist said.
“He was only hired for that, and he was scared. After some friction with the police, our representative said a few brief sentences about our position. After that, we were dispersed very violently.” Some of the younger activists tried to defend themselves by pushing the police away with the plastic chairs left from the pro-Hamas demonstration.
Hamas understood the subtext of the PFLP protest all too well. The PFLP is unwilling to see the Hamas regime as a mere victim, either of Israel or the PA. You took power? Take responsibility as well.
But the shamelessly brutal suppression of the protest shows just how scared the Gaza government is. It has suppressed all activities by Fatah in the Strip, be it public or internal.
Last week, it prevented a protest by the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine in the al-Maghazi refugee camp, also based on the electricity crisis. It even banned a celebration by the Khan Yunis refugee committee for students who passed their matriculation exams.
This is because any activity not controlled by Hamas or protesting the Israeli siege is defined as a threat to the movement’s rule. If Hamas felt it still had public support, it wouldn’t need to suppress any activity that it didn’t initiate or finds unflattering.
Tagged as: Amira Hass, Gaza, Hamas
Did you see Amira Hass a few weeks ago speaking at Hampshire?
Because what? Because her words in person are drastically different than her words on paper, virtual or otherwise?
What’s your point howard lenow?
Do you think running a society while under blockade, and hving suffered a massacre at Israel’s hands is going to be easy?
Israel’s zealot defenders come out of the woodwork whenever they have a chance to spin platitudes about how much they care about the Palestinians, you see? It’s the Palestinian leadership that’s to blame. If only the Palestinians had decent leadership — so goes the hasbara — Israel wouldn’t have to kill so many.
I can’t count the number of times I have heard that nonsense over the years.
And lest we forget, just because Amira Hass wrote an article doesn’t mean that those same Zionists suddenly find Hass credible. If they had, they would have found the moral courage to speak against the 43 year old military occupation. It’s just that an article like this serves their agenda.
The ignorant will dismiss the fact that social dynamics are affected by both internal and external factors. Imposing a siege on 1.5 million people is certainly a great way to push a nation toward conservatism and religion.
Under siege in Metsadah, Jews committed collective suicide.
Oh how quickly we forget.
Yeah, the same Amira Hass that was arrested by Israel for daring to report from Gaza.
I think that the reason that Howard wrote “the great Amira Hass” is that she sees what she sees and writes what she sees.
If she sees that Hamas is suppressive in ways, she’ll comment (even when there). If she sees that Israel is suppressive, she’ll comment.
Her “side” is human welfare.
Her and Howard’s political conclusions are somewhat different than mine, but I greatly appreciate that Amira is willing to speak up and without politically screened self-editing, as I told her at Hampshire.
I described it as appreciation for her commitment to witness.
“Her and Howard’s political conclusions are somewhat different than mine, but I greatly appreciate that Amira is willing to speak up and without politically screened self-editing,”
What this means is that you reject what she says when it makes you uncomfortable, but like it when her honesty leads her to criticize Hamas. I take her seriously no matter who she criticizes–she’s earned the right to be taken seriously.
“I take her seriously no matter who she criticizes–she’s earned the right to be taken seriously.”
reflects my view of her.
Except, Witty, that you disagree with her where Amira finds the mass murder of civilians in Operation Cast Lead to be an atrocity.
A reminder as to the Hamas’ genocidal agenda:
link to haaretz.com
Jon, the Haaretz article you linked to talks about Hamas blowing up 15 Israelis in a market several years back but also talks about Gazans complaining that Hamas not taking confrontational actions against Israel for a while and how the Hamas leadership is not biting.
I can’t take you seriously, jon s. Where’s the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s concern for human rights when it comes to Gaza ?
the author of that haaretz article, Avi Issacharoff? not my favorite journalist. i seriously doubt he heard that speech in person either. and check out this challenged framing:
notice the first quote has the context paraphrased? why not the whole quote? fishy, w/inflammatory language like that they shouldn’t have cherry picked 1/2 sentence. either they saw/read the ‘letter’ or not. they should have just printed the whole friggin thing or at least the whole sentence where he allegedly threatened genocide, as jon claims.
triple yawn.
Annie- “Allegedly threatened genocide”? Israelis can choose between “death and departing…” How much more specific do you want them to be?
At some point it may be necessary to negotiate with them, but let’s not forget what kind of bloodthirsty terrorists we’re dealing with.
use your head jon, had the quote stated what he claimed it stated he could or should have used the entire quote. he didn’t. why? was he there? did he hear a recording of the speech? he doesn’t say. last i heard haaretz doesn’t have a press office in gaza which probably means he was relying on a stringer who could very well be a collaborator. i have no idea and neither do you. for all i know he could have said ‘palestinians will fight until death or departing palestinian lands”.
the bottom line ” death or departing palestinian lands” in itself is not a call for genocide UNLESS it is combined w/the authors/stringers assertions. like i said “w/inflammatory language like that they shouldn’t have cherry picked 1/2 the sentence.” plus, notice how he said “According to the letter, “Our resistance will continue as long as the Zionists remain.””?
first he references a ‘statement issued in his name” then it is called a ‘letter’. i am familiar w/this journalist and have encountered very sketchy reports and claims of his in the past. that’s all i have to say on this topic.
You’re talking about Israel’s leadership, right? I agree.
You mean Netanyahu?
Yes, let’s consider what we’re dealing with:
Hamas says committed to mutual truce with Israel
link to reuters.com
Very scary hey John S?
bloodthirsty terrorists
blood libel blood libel!!!!!!
lol
Read the Hamas Charter jon s.
ALL OF IT.
CARE FULLY.
Article Thirty-One: “As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.”
Would you read the fine print in your loan contract, or just the bits that make you feel good?
I think it’s safe to say that a Post Zionist is just another flavor fo Liberal Zionism with another layer of denial and self delusion added to the mix.
Well done, my friend. I was deeply frustrated when I read that flawed article, so thanks for your response. And yes, I can help also let anyone talk to women who go to cafes and smoke pipe over there. One more thing, isn’t it normal that police interrogate suspected people including couples…if you’re stating that they are suspected, what is it exactly that ails you when “Hamas” interrogate them? However, if you mean by suspected that they are sort of “lovers” who are not engaged or married, then, I’ll be happy to introduce to you more than one friend of mine who go out for a walk with their “girl friends” semi daily and they have never been stopped in the street let alone interrogated– unless they do something that would turn them into a “suspected couple”…
mohammed, are you familiar w/sharek youth center? did you hear about the hamas crackdown there in gaza? it seems news of it would have been widespread in gaza if it happened as they claim. i am just curious because this has been spread via listserves heavily here and i am curious about your take on it. any news? and what is the reputation of the center? i find it curious a youth center is allowed to exist there as such an opponent of hamas if hamas is so restrictive. it seems they would just shut it down.
there is a contradiction in the fact it is open and prospering isn’t there?
Well, that’s one case of how couples –yes a group of couples!– would turn themselves into suspected people. Personally, I was invited to be member of the forum more than once, but never stepped inside it. Whenever the topic is raised between me and others, they usually go for what the government did in view of the fact that the forum’s reputation was drastically getting worse and worse…I know nothing for sure, but I was told it was closed for “unethical” reasons which go in line with the recent reputation of the forum. One thing should be taken into consideration whenever the issue of these youth forums is at hand which is that youth are trying to disconnect themselves from reality of the customs and conventions in Gaza. However, Hamas (which more often than not abuse its power) has left other forums operate freely. Why is it only Sharek that was shut down? There are Tamer, Bader, Nazra (the leader of which is close to me, and he was detained for 8 hours for taking part in a protest over Sharek incident) Soura and many other youth groups which are still carrying on with their important work. Why is it only Sharek?!
The western media is never honest when the issue at hand has to do with Hamas.
thanks mohammed. frankly i can’t imagine a more challenging situation than governing under these circumstances. i agree the western media is completely biased wrt hamas. any society as large as gaza is going to have multiple factions and disagreements w/the leadership. i don’t demonize them tho and i certainly do not envy them. the situation is dire.
Much of the anti-Hamas propaganda may be rubbish, but the Hamas regime may still objectively have much that is wrong with it. I’m sure that there are feminists, religious sceptics and others who are uncomfortable in its shadow. I don’t feel committed to defend it in every respect just because I want Palestinians to have their basic right to live in a sovereign state which is not based on racial discrimination or unfairness. The right to have and run a society on those terms cannot be dependent on being ready to run it in every respect, or even in general, in the right way: else no one would have it securely. There can’t, that is to say, be a right for one race to be dominant and oppressive until it is satisfied (which would be pretty arrogant) that the other races are going to behave well: to eliminate the most basic rights in order to protect the other ones. The torrent of anti-Hamas and Islamophobic propaganda does indeed deserve scepticism but may also, as propaganda often does, contain some truths – even so it is being used to support the untenable and arrogant claim that the Palestinians have to pass tests set by Israel or the West before they can have their rights.
And that’s the problem. Instead of leaving the Palestinians to decide for themselves, Israel and Zionist Jews in the US feign concern for women’s rights in ‘The Ay-rab world’ simply because it suits their agenda.
If this Ashley Bates hack cared about human beings’ rights she would have written about the siege instead of propagandizing about gender equality.
But, the problem is far greater. Historically, it has always been the colonizer’s position that the natives, the savages, had to be tamed and civilized. That’s why hacks in the West who tow the Israeli line feel comfortable peddling Islamophobia and stereotypes under the guise of concern for women’s rights.
Besides, if one cares about women, one should also care about men, children, teenagers and the elderly. But, such an approach is not lucrative as it does not serve the Israeli/Zionist agenda.
Like I said yesterday, Not out of the goodness of their hearts.
Along the same lines, repealing Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell will enable the chickenhawks, the war mongers to secretly pat themselves on the back for having secured the next demographic of cannon fodder, while publicly promoting this as a civil rights achievement.
Along the same lines, repealing Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell will enable the chickenhawks, the war mongers to secretly pat themselves on the back for having secured the next demographic of cannon fodder, while publicly promoting this as a civil rights achievement.
This is just idiotic, so now that DADT is unconstitutional our homosexual population will line up in droves to join?
Remember that this is the “progressive” journal that ran Joshua Hammer’s disgusting hit piece on the “idiot” Rachel Corrie.
link to motherjones.com
Odd isn’t it, some ‘civilized’ Western countries are banning the smoking of cigarettes in public places. Perhaps they should be bombed.
Hamas is clearly an illiberal outfit, but so is administration of Egypt, PA, Jordan and, well, Israel.
PA is ruling through arbitrary arrests, Israel is perfecting police state techniques of Apartheid, and Hamas is an illiberal theocracy, as opposed to Israel which is a liberal theocracy. Like Iran, Israel has democratic institutions, but, at the end of the day, the law of G..d is stronger than the law of Man. Fresh news: West Bank Jewish priests offered curses and civil wars in an eventuality of some settlements being evacuated. Any guesses if the “secular” government will risk their wrath?
Any guesses if the “secular” government will risk their wrath?
they have not had the guts thus far. maybe they like this wild fringe on the front line, takes the heat off them. but we know israel’s government is not so ‘secular’ anymore and we know they financial support the settlers and they support their ‘security’ including private ‘security’. they turn a blind eyes to their constant harrassment and crimes against palestinians certainly not limited to ‘incitement’. they accommodate the settlers and use their wrath to push the society further to the right. iow any wrath from the settlers serves the government. no, i don’t see the government going up against them until such time as they are pressured by outside forces and bibi’s dad drops dead.
As has been recently pointed out elsewhere on this blog, if Israelis involve themselves in what amounts to a civil war then the UN, UNSC, surrounding Arab countries–all get to legally intervene directly to solve the problem on the land no country owns and Israel has not officially annexed.
I discovered Ashley Bates Gaza blog around the time of the attack on the Free Gaza Flotilla:
link to gazadispatches.blogspot.com
In general I found the writing to be very sympathetic to Palestinians, really trying to tell human stories about how life is in Gaza – with quite a lot written about the effects of the siege.
Mohammed AlNadi ~ have a read, and I’m interested to know what you think about the way Bates writes about Gaza. It is obvious she doesn’t like Hamas but I don’t think she actually demonises them. The last post on her blog was from July when she said she was leaving Gaza. Asma Al-Ghoul isn’t ever mentioned so possibly they made contact after Bates left. I suspect things like Bates saying Hamas have forced christians to wear hijab have come from Asma, and not been fact-checked properly by Bates. Pitfalls of journalism, or deliberate distortion? I don’t know.
The criticism you make of Bates’ glossing over the Israel/US/Egypt sponsored Fateh coup is important, as is Bates describing the Gaza Massacre as a war. At the same time, she does recount Asma’s story of the indiscriminate killing by Israel during those 22 days, so I don’t think she downplays it quite as much as you think. I found another piece of writing by Bates at Mother Jones, a strange book review of Midnight on the Mavi Marmara:
link to motherjones.com
Bates detours into the the lack of coverage in the book of suicide bombings and Gaza rockets – both of which have been largely irrelevant for the last few years on account of being no longer practiced (suicide bombing) or severely curtailed (rockets). It’s not a long review so this section strikes me as odd. I think Bates is wedded to the idea that good journalism tells both sides of the story – which I disagree with – but this is the demand always heard when the situation in Palestine is honestly reported.
I’m interested in one thing Asma states: she thinks Hamas are stuck between civil society and more extreme groups. One of the tragedies about the Fateh coup is that it probably has stalled or retarded the development of the political wing of Hamas. Being elected to govern all of Palestine (muslims, christians, seculars) would have forced on Hamas more accountability to the electorate than the current situation. It also would have forced Fateh to reform or continue to be beaten at the polls. I’m interested to know more about how Hamas is handling the various directions in which it is being pulled..
According to UNSC Res 1860 of 2009, (dispute it if you wish to look like a complete idiot), Gaza is under occupation. In order to resist occupation and keep order in a territory under blockade, a harsh regime is probably quite necessary.
Hey talknic,
I love you blog BTW.
How can Gaza be under occupation, and also controlled by Hamas, simultaneously? How exactly does that work?
Maybe you’ve got things backwards : the “harsh regime” -the Hamas dictatorship- needs to present itself as resisting a non-existent occupation and siege in order to justify its crimes.
jon s – do Palestinians in Gaza control all their territory, sea- and air-space, and borders? An honest answer to that settles whether Gaza is occupied or not.
Sumud-
Have you ever heard of an occupation where the “occupier” isn’t in control of the territory ?
jon s ~ why don’t you answer my question honestly? I hear you’re claiming to be a post-zionist. If that’s the case you need to drop the lying & hasbara.
Again:
• all their territory?
• sea-space?
• airspace?
• borders?
I specifically said “all their territory” because being free to roam within the confines of a prison does not make a free man, woman or child. Anyway, the Israelis-imposed buffer zone consumes 35% of Gaza’s arable land and Palestinians in Gaza are shot up to 1200 metres beyond the 300m buffer zone. Israel controls this land explicitly.
If you expect me to believe Gaza is sovereign, then you’re also telling me jews in the Warsaw Ghetto had their sovereignty. Is that the case?
i’m not taking jon’s claims of being a ‘post zionist’ seriously. sounds like not too fancy wordsmithing if you ask me. his claim might temporarily fly over @ dkos but i don’t see it gaining traction here or anywhere else for that matter. not w/the kinds of ideas he travels in.
jon s,
A question and then a few comments.
“…a non-existent occupation and siege in order to justify its crimes.”
Are you saying that the siege is “non-existent” or is that sentence just a case of bad phrasing? I find it hard to believe that anyone who calls himself “post-zionist” would be in denial about the siege.
Have you ever heard of an occupation where the “occupier” isn’t in control of the territory ?
If Israel isn’t occupying Gaza then the US isn’t occupying Iraq. Neither are in control of all the territory that they occupy. I suspect that Israelis have been violating international law for so long that they think that settling on occupied territory is the main distinction of an occupation, rather than a violation of the laws of occupation. Removing illegal settlers does not constitute ending an occupation.
To my mind a post-Xist is someone in whose mind and in whose world ideology X is no longer a serious option, but something left behind. Someone who thinks that X is so well tested and proved that it is now not worth arguing about, and it’s only a question of framing life according to Xist strictures, is an ultra-Xist in my view. A pretension to serene confidence based on loud claims to have already won the argument are often little more than a sign of inner insecurity. Meanwhile no new arguments for any form of Zionism ever seem to appear.
What part of air, land and sea access does Israel not control in Gaza?
jon s
The UNSC says Gaza is occupied. Take it up with them.
“Maybe you’ve got things backwards : the “harsh regime” -the Hamas dictatorship- needs to present itself as resisting a non-existent occupation and siege in order to justify its crimes.”
The occupation you stupidly deny, (even in the face of UNSC Res 1860), began way before Hamas came on the scene.
ditto what shingo says, excellent blog talknic.
Let’s put it this way: if Israel was occupying Gaza- Hamas wouldn’t be in control there.
Tree, thanks for the comparison with Iraq, I think you sort of prove my point. In Iraq , American troops are present; in Gaza, Israeli troops are not. In Iraq, a pro-American regime has been installed ; in Gaza, an extremely anti-Israeli regime is in charge.
Shingo,
Territory- controlled by Hamas, not under Israeli occupation.
Borders- Israel, like any other country ,has the right to defend it’s borders, and control entry and exit. In the south Gaza’s border is with Egypt, and the Egyptian authorities are responsible there.
Air and Sea- Gaza is not a normative political entity- it’s a territory controlled by a terrorist organization. Do you think they should be allowed to bring in and send out whatever and whoever they want?
Don’t forget that they are still holding – under cruel and illegal conditions- the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.
And no, there’s no real siege, not in the way the term is normally used.
You’re dealing in fantasy jon s, not reality. According to your logic jews in Warsaw were sovereign.
Israel, like any other country ,has the right to defend it’s borders
name another country that murders farmers and shepherds on their own land as a matter of course. israel does not ‘defend’ it’s borders ‘like any other country’.
The idea that one may defend one’s borders by crossing them and seizing for an indefinite period of time outposts on the other side of the border makes absolute nonsense of the idea of borders which, being borders, mark the normal – ie not the indefinitely disregarded – limits of one’s control.
The same for refusal to accept that any actual line on the map is the border to the territories one claims.
John S,
Territory- controlled by Hamas, not under Israeli occupation.
What part of the territory does Hamas control? Are they free to use the waters of Gaza, the air space, or even the 300m exclusion zone?
No.
By definition, that goes 2 ways. There can be no entry and exit on the Israeli side without an entry and exit on the non Isreli side.
Responsible, as in, doign what they are told right?
No, it’s a teritory gvernmened by an elected politcial party with a military arm, just like Isrel’s government.
Yes, becasue the territory does not belieng to Israel, or do you object to Israel being able to bring in and send out whatever and whoever they want?
Oh crys me a riover tyou ignoramus. Don’t forget that Israel are holding 1000 Shalit’s in their own prisons. Don;t forget that the day befoer Salit was captured, Israel kidnapped 2 brothers from Gaza City.
I guess Post Zionists care as much abotu non Jewish lives as actual Zionists.
What does that mean John? Not enough children sufering from malnutrition for your taste?
You’re as bad a Witty and the rest of them.
Incidentally, can anyone explain how a place can be both occupied and besieged?
I contend that Gaza is neither, but it seems to me that it can be either one or the other. You should at least get your story straight.
Incidentally, can anyone explain how a place can be both occupied and besieged?
Hi hanotenet, as we say in Hebrew. The closure that Israel has imposed on Gaza demonstrates Israel’s continued “effective control” over the territory.
For an explanation of why Israel still bears the responsibilities of an occupying power in Gaza, see Gisha’s “DISENGAGED OCCUPIERS: THE LEGAL STATUS OF GAZA” – link to gisha.org
For an explanation of why Israeli policy toward Gaza constitutes collective punishment (neither a siege nor a blockade), according to international law, see “Gaza Closure Defined: Collective Punishment” -
link to gisha.org
You’ve been answered by multiple people jon s, that you’re going on about it just demonstrates your ability to ignore reality; very un-post-zionist behaviour. Who made up the rule that an occupied territory can’t be under siege BTW? The Fourth Geneva Conventions specifically deal with the obligations an occupying power has to the welfare of the occupied population because of the very real possibility that they’ll be mistreated – as is occurring in Gaza via the siege.
I’m still waiting for you to tell me jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were free people – as you’re contending Palestinians in Gaza are. C’mon jon, how ’bout it?
Occupied means that Gaza is under Israeli military control and that Israeli assets — war planes, naval destroyers, and soldiers and tanks (the latter of which enter Gaza on a weekly basis even if they don’t station there). The presence of the “kill zone” on Gazan territory is a factor of occupation.
Besieged means that economic activity grinds to a halt and the population can no longer freely feed itself or conduct normal commerce. Israeli troops storming aid vessels in international waters and killing off American volunteers would be an example of the siege at work.
Therefore, the two are not mutually exclusive. An occupation can take place and, while immoral, can be legal as long as the Geneva Conventions are adhered to. The siege reflects the fact that those Conventions are being violated by Israel, instead.
Tree, thanks for the comparison with Iraq, I think you sort of prove my point.
No, what you proven is that you are just the average run of the mill Zionist who can blind himself to any thing he doesn’t wish to see, and dumb himself down so that he is incapable of understanding that which he doesn’t wish to understand, no matter how clearly it is explained. Any pretension you had to being “post-zionist” has been revealed for what it is.
I suggest you read Shmuel’s link which not only explains what occupation means, and the centrality of control to the definition, but also goes into chapter and verse of the extent to which Israel controls Gaza, including not only its borders, airspace, territorial waters, telecommunications systems and economy, but also its population registry and its tax systems. Or read the Goldstone Report, which concluded that Gaza is still under occupation, a conclusion that is acknowledged by everyone BUT Israel.
If logical argument doesn’t work on you, perhaps you can try a thought experiment. If you were to read Shmuel’s link and substitute the word “Gaza” for “Israel” and vice versa, or, in other words, if Gaza was in control of Israel’s borders, airspace, tax system, population registry, etc. etc., would you be playing games with words or would you finally be able to recognize an occupation when it was, so to speak, your ox being occupied?
Thanks, Shmuel, for linking those reports. You may have linked them before, but this time I remembered to save them for future reference the next time a “post” Zionist tries to play word games.
Sumud -I hesitated to reply because it looked like you may be making an analogy between the Warsaw Ghetto and the situation in Gaza. I hope that wasn’t your intent.
Warsaw was under effective control by the occupying Nazis. (During the uprising, in April 1943, Jewish forces succeded in effectively liberating the ghetto for a short period).
In Gaza effective control of the territory and population is in the hands of the Hamas terrorists.
By the way, if I admit that you’re right and Israel is in control, does that mean that it would be OK for the IDF to take action and get rid of the Hamas and re-establish an Israeli military administration?
Easy. An occupier can simulatenously occupy and besiege the population.
Perhaps your post Zionist mind cannot fathom this simple principal.
But there were no Nazis residing in the Warsaw Ghetto, so someone must have been in charge.
During the opening of the Rafah crossing in 2007, Palestinians succeded in effectively liberating the ghetto for a short period.
Unless Israel decides to massacre 1,400 of them, in which case, Hamas has no control whatsover.
On what grounds?
Should the British have gotten rid of the Haganah, Stern Gang and Irgun?
“can anyone explain how a place can be both occupied and besieged?”
Er no. It’s impossible to explain anything to someone who does not want anything explained.
You did read UNSC Res 1860 .jon s? Or you didn’t understand it?
It’s your guide dog’s day off? Doesn’t read English? Is blind?
You’re not permitted to read UNSC Resolutions at work?
What exactly is the problem?
jon s
“…In Gaza effective control of the territory…”
Airspace? Territorial waters? What, when anything or anyone can or cannot enter or exit Gaza? Tell me about it..
” …and population is in the hands of the Hamas terrorists”
The ranks of Hamas are drawn from the Palestinian population. They didn’t just fall out of the sky.
“By the way, if I admit that you’re right and Israel is in control, does that mean that it would be OK for the IDF to take action …”
Correct..
Can you name an instance, other than being an Occupying Power, were a UN Member State is permitted to go into the territory of another party and blaze away? The IDF do, regularly… crossing into Gaza and slaughtering at will with impunity because it is not against the law for an Occupying Power to engage military targets in Occupied Territory.
The occupied have the same rights to engage any military target or armed person from the Occupying Power.
“..and get rid of the Hamas and re-establish an Israeli military administration?”
Last Israel tried, it didn’t get past step one of your plan.
Now there are a lot more Hamas and they didn’t fall out of the sky either.
Moreover, it is illegal force regime change by war.
Far better to STOP illegally acquiring Palestinian territory, withdraw from all Palestinian territory. Go back to Israel. Then you wouldn’t have to make pathetic excuses here.
Warsaw was under effective control by the occupying Nazis.
But there were no Nazi troops stationed in the Warsaw Ghetto. Governance there was left to Jewish authorities. I see you have a different view of what constitutes an occupation when it doesn’t involve Israelis being the occupiers. Nazis “effective control” =occupation, IDF “effective control”=no occupation. Quelle surprise! Another Zionist hypocrite.
Talknic, Sorry that I don’t meet your lofty intellectual standards, just trying some plain old common sense.
just trying some plain old common sense.
The proper term for what you are doing is playing word games, or in other words, stale hasbara. Try thinking for yourself for a change. Maybe common sense will follow.
I suspect that Gazan women generally have more important problems to deal with than the fact that they can’t wear jeans.
Well put, Avi.
Max Ajl :
US/Israel : “Bombing and starving your women to freedom, one region at a time”
As to the so-called “siege” : the term brings to mind the sieges of Jerusalem and Massada by the Romans, Vicksburg in the Civil War, Leningrad and Stalingrad in WW2, not this:
link to mfa.gov.il
Some siege…
So you’re linking to an Israeli source to prove your point?
Some post-Zioinist…
Shingo, I don’t like the present Israeli government any more than you do.
I referred to the website as a source of statistical data. If you think the data is erroneous – do you have a better source?
No occupation, no siege, disjointed propaganda stats from the MFA. Sounds to me like you like the present Israeli government just fine. It also sounds like “public diplomacy”.
The MFA numbers may be accurate but there is no information there on the number of truckloads allowed versus the need, so they remain meaningless.
Read this if you really want some context:
link to fidh.org
A contextual tidbit, to help with that ‘common sense’ thing:
While the Government of Israel committed to expand and accelerate the inflow of construction materials for international projects[when it announced the "easing" of the blockade], it has so far only approved 7 per cent of the building plan for UNRWA’s projects in Gaza, and of that 7 per cent only a small fraction of the necessary construction material has been allowed to enter for projects including schools and health centres. 3 In fact, the UN reports that Gaza requires 670,000 truckloads of construction material, while only an average of 715 of these truckloads have been received per month since the ‘easing’ was announced.4
Using common sense, that means at the rate that Israel is allowing trucks in, it will take 78 years to meet the present need. Your statistics for the week of Dec 19-25 indicate that only 81 truckloads of construction material were allowed in. At that rate it will take over twice as long, 159 years to meet the immediate need.
Shingo, I don’t like the present Israeli government any more than you do…
You might as well drop the pretense. None of us are buying it anymore.
The one and only comprehensive scholarly history of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories (which has been translated into English), called “Lords of the Land”, by Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar , reads as follows.
After Israel withdrew it’s forces from Gaza, in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel’s military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day. Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future. The Jewish settlements were destroyed in an ungenerous move by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass it’s inhabitants, by means of it’s formidable military might.
Hi, jon s. Since you appear to be spending time in this thread, I’ll bring my questions from this thread over here.
Your statement:
>> I support the concept of Israel as a Jewish state. I reject any notion of supremacism – that’s racism. Israel can be Jewish- like other nation-states- without being racist.
My comment:
“Jewish state” implies religion-supremacism. Remove the religious element from the equation and you have an Israeli state, democratic and egalitarian.
My questions:
1. If “Jewish state” does not imply religion-supremacism, but some sort of “ethnic” or “cultural” identity, would Muslim and Christian citizens of the state of Israel become “cultural Jews”?
2. Would they have the same rights as all other “cultural Jews” of the “Jewish state” of Israel?
3. Would foreign nationals of any ethnicity or religious affiliation be able to declare themselves “culturally Jewish” and automatically gain the right to Israeli citizenship – with attendant rights and benefits – such as is granted now only to foreign nationals of the Jewish faith?
I would very much appreciate answers from you. I want to understand how “Israel can be Jewish- like other nation-states- without being racist.”
Thank you.
Eljay,
Sorry , I really can’t keep up with all the different discussions . I also have a life…
One of the precepts of Zionism is that Judaism is not just a religion. Jews are a people, a nation (and also a religion). As such , in an age of nation-states, the Jewish people deserve the same as other people, a nation-state of their own. Hence the concept of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people
As in other nation-states which are democracies, national minorities should enjoy equal rights, should not be persecuted in any way,and should not be forced to abandon their own identity and culture.
In answer to your question: the question is irrelevant. Non-Jewish citizens do not wish to become “cultural Jews”, they want to preserve their Palestinian identity and their Moslem and Christian faiths, and that’s fine.
As to foreign nationals – in my view: sure, if such a person declares himself /herself “culturally Jewish”, as you put it, and seeks to be a loyal, law-abiding, citizen – welcome!
jon s, thanks for the reply. So, just to clarify, you envision:
- Israel as the nation-state of “the Jewish people” *and* the democratic nation-state of all its minorities.
- Everyone in Israel having full and equal rights.
- Any foreign national – Jewish or non-Jewish – wishing to live in and be loyal to Israel being granted admission and citizenship.
Sounds good. But…if Israel is the democratic state of Jews and non-Jews equally, and everyone in Israel has full and equal rights, and any foreign national who wishes to live in and be loyal to Israel is entitled to admission and citizenship, then Israel is (rightly) “the state of the Israeli people”, and not “the Jewish state”.
So, how do you envision Israel remaining a “Jewish state” when the concepts you are proposing result in a democratic and egalitarian Israeli state?
jon s
That’d be after having the spotlight shone on the issue of collective punishment, post slaughtering flotilla members?