If he wasn’t he would be analyzing the events in the region and scrambling desperately to make peace with surrounding Arab countries. Instead, since the fall of Ben Ali and Mubarak and now the impending fall of Qadhafi the world is witnessing increased brutality and cruelty by the Israeli regime against the Palestinian people, in particular the last few weeks Israelis have targeted children which they are harassing and arresting at alarming rates. But, aside from this inhuman treatment of young children the pace at which Palestinians are displaced from their homes has not slowed down, see here, here and here. Meanwhile, Palestinian resistance groups that were told by the international community (including Arabs) that they would see their freedom sooner if they backed and enforced a ceasefire just witnessed the Obama administration veto the UNSC resolution to condemn Israeli settlement expansion.
It’s amazing that both U.S. and Israeli policies could be so incredibly short sighted and stupid but it does appear to be so. What could the Israelis be thinking, do they believe that they will continue to settle every inch of Palestinian land? And do they really think that they have the same options and abilities that they had say, two months ago?
It's safe to assume that Hamas has in the last month rearmed via the tunnels in Egypt and that they are still rearming as I type this now and anyone who doesn’t believe that is happening is very delusional. It's also safe to assume that Israel will never be able to wage a war against Gaza or Lebanon again, they will no longer have Egyptian support to do so and it's impossible that the Jordanians will at this point, or at any point in the future offer the same kind of logistic support as they have in the past. A war against Lebanon? Israel waged its last war in collaboration with the Lebanese government, now, Hezbollah's coalition controls the government, Iranian warships are docked in Syria and they have access to the Suez. Of course no one can predict exactly how stupid the Israeli regime is to the new facts on the ground in the Arab world, but, I would wager that if Israel ever tried to attack Gaza again that the Palestinian resistance would have military support from Turkey, Egypt and Hezbollah.
To the people complaining about the grad rocket attacks that hit Israel yesterday, I ask you, for how long did you think that Israel would be allowed to arrest and piss on Palestinian children, steal and destroy Palestinian land, enforce a barbaric siege against Gaza, murder peaceful protesters, look the other way while settlers murder Palestinians with impunity and just get away with it?
Tour de force. You’ve written this far more eloquently than I ever could have, Seham, and it’s a brilliant summation of where things stand today.
I know it takes a lot of work to do the research and then sit down and pour your heart out as well. Your work here is very much appreciated and you bring a lot to this blog.
Mr. Weiss and Mr. Horowitz deserve credit for bringing on Palestinian voices, which generally is taboo and almost unheard of in American media.
I second all these sentiments.
I third these sentiments. In general, I’m always amazed, despite my senior citizenship and anything but coddled life, at the arrogance of people at the political top–get a load of Rummy and Shrub on their book tour interviews! They barely try to hide their utter smug lack of concern for what they have wrought, and for the scribblers and talking heads who try to point out what they have done–they are the “doers” of the world, so scribble and type away after the fact if you like. And how about that former Israeli honcho just convicted of serial rape even though the court bent backwards for him all the way? And, how about that gang of Orthodox Zionist male Israeli rabbies who wrote a joint letter defending him to the nines? Such lights to the world, all of them–they’ve all done their best to be like the egomanical former leaders of Tunisia and Egypt. And they are all as righteous as can be even now. And we’ve enabled all of them.
I am reminded that Glen Beck sees Israel as the good ally, and the Orthodox Jews as the good Jews–therefore, somebody should send him a copy of the Orthodox Israeli rabbis’ praise of the former Israeli honcho’s serial rape.
and fourth. Does that mean the motion carries? Well done Seham.
re this statement: “Hezbollah’s coalition controls the government, Iranian warships are docked in Syria and they have access to the Suez. Of course no one can predict exactly how stupid the Israeli regime is to the new facts on the ground in the Arab world, but, I would wager that if Israel ever tried to attack Gaza again that the Palestinian resistance would have military support from Turkey, Egypt and Hezbollah.”
-if you recognize that US is deeply involved in Egyptian transfer of power — Obama said so; Clinton would have to concur; Hillary Mann Leverett said as much in an interview on Al Jazeera: “US is in close communication” with Egyptian government & army, which IS the govt right now.
-then you have to at least speculate that US had prior knowledge of Egypt’s intent to allow Iranian ships to transit Suez
-I don’t recall howls of protest from US directed at Egypt about Iran ships
-causes one to suspect US might be pleased that Iran is present at Syria to check Israeli aggression.
-it’s a beautiful setup: US can’t lose, US won’t get hurt — Iranians can get hurt, which would not make US feel bad, but Israel might feel just a little hemmed in, which also should not make US feel too badly about
Everytime I get mad at Mondo and think of leaving, I remember Seham needs me and so I stay.
i need you taxi!
Sigh. I’m always the bridesmaid, never the bride, aren’t I? ;) But yeah. I’ve come to value this community more, the longer I’ve been here. I guess it’s the constant barrage attacks we all suffer that gives us common cause.
I guess it’s the constant barrage attacks we all suffer that gives us common cause.
our common cause is our activism.
fifth! this is an amazing write up seham. thank you thank you thank you,
There is a difference between what USA “wants to do” and what USA can do. In a zone of conflict there is only so much influence you can have. For a while you can “support” or “manipulate” both sides, but it is a delicate situation and unstable.
For a little while Soviets had influence in both Somalia and Ethiopia, but very quickly clients went to blows. Recently USA tried the same trick, and it did not work much better.
In the case of Iranian ships, what the hell can we do? They have their treaty rights, and if Egypt sees no reason to obstruct Iran anymore, what else? Do I have to spell out how much we can loose by an unproved attack on Iran’s navy?
Before, Egypt was paranoid that Iran would “foment unrest”. Now this is not much of an issue, is it? I do not know if the junta really will make a transition to democracy, but they need to show some tokens of independence and dignity. Lieberman, with impotent complaints, made sure that the gesture will be noticed and appreciated.
I would beg to differ. This is not in the least brilliant. It is just plain hateful. It re-hashes old anti-Israel bromide, adding new wild accusations (targeting children? that’s a new one, and when you check the source, guess what? It’s a Palestinian source, who typically inverts reality by saying that Israel targets demonstrators’ children, when it is these incompetent parents who allow their children to be used as cannon fodder to make the Israelis look bad). The tactic is as old as it is despicable. The mark of a barbaric populace. Children should not ever be allowed to join demonstrations where they can be hurt. But to the Palestinians that’s perfectly ok. Why anyone reading Seham’s garbage doesn’t barf on the spot is beyond me. And of course, we are served the usual rewriting of history, i.e. the Palestinians have done nothing wrong, they are nothing but victims and it’s all the fault of the evil Israelis. Rockets from Gaza? Never happened. Suicide bombers? Never happened. Constant attacks by stupid and brainwashed Palestinian hotheads killing Jews at every opportunity? Never happened. So how could the Israelis be indeed so heartless as to have the audacity to defend themselves? Incidentally, here’s another colossal lie by your anything but brilliant writer: Israel always attacked first. Well, it’s exactly the reverse. Every military action, big or small, has been in response to a preceding Palestinian attack. But lying is second nature to Palestinian writers, isn’t it, Seham? Trouble is, you can fool many, but you don’t fool all.
Best comment ever by jjs. Hahaha!
Can you believe the crack pot Seham? Have you checked out jjs’s web site? It’s called…get this… Training and Education about the Middle East
You gotta love irony.
You’d better ring up Mordecai Gur(Israeli politician and the 10th Chief of Staff of the IDF) who said to Ze’ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha’aretz) that:
The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.
You might also want to contact the IDF and Shin Bet, both of whom have challenged rulings by the Israeli Supreme Court that banned the use of human shields.
It was OK for the Egyptians in Tahrir Square jjs. Do you dissaprove?
It’s no surprise that most of this is beyond you.
Palestinians have done nothing wrong, they are nothing but victims and it’s all the fault of the evil Israelis.
Except when there is a 4 months ceasefire and Israel violates it and launches an all out massacre of Gaza, not because of rockets, but because Hamas were sticking to the ceasefire too well for Israel’s liking.
And why were there suicide bombers? Did the occupation ever happen? Did ethnic cleansing, land theft and routine murder ever happen?
Israelis is killing Palestinians are 1 every 2 days, but it’s the Palestinian hotheads who are killing Jews at every opportunity?
There is no such thing as defending yourself when you are on occupied territory or when you are blockading a territory (an act of war) for the purpose of destroying their economy and socieity.
False. November 4th 2008 was an attack by Israel. The attack on Gaza in 2006 was an attack by Israel in response to Hamas elections going to Hamas.
You’re truly pathetic jjs. Go back and update your Hasbara talking points.
when i first read it i thought..popcorn anyone!
let’s party.
Too much to answer. Not enough time. But… let’s address a couple. The quote by Mordecai Gur, source please. The 4-month “cease-fire” with Hamas…. yeah…. as in “you cease and I fire”, which is exactly what Hamas did… and then they are shocked to be hammered in return. They’re the ones who broke the truce, repeatedly, by continuously firing rockets. Well, they got what they deserved. The Nov 4 2008 and the 2006 attacks were each in response to rockets fired from Gaza. But of course for you over 8,000 rockets fired over 10 years don’t count and would not be enough reason for Israel to strike back. You should consider yourselves the luckiest morons in the world. Were it not for Israeli restraint, Hamas would already have been pulverized and we would be talking about it in the past tense. You’re not smart enough to realize how lucky you are, so you’ll keep doing the same as you always have… and will end up nowhere. Keep it up. Smart people are people who are able to use their head and notice that when something doesn’t work one way, you try another way. When it comes to this conflict, the Palestinians have to be commended for being consistent…. in their stupidity, deluding themselves into thinking that terrorism will get them what they lost on the battlefield. Sorry to wake you up, guys. Just look where you are today. You keep losing land and Palestinians are universally regarded as terrorists (with good reason). Stupid is as stupid does. You still don’t have a state, your leadership is fractured, corrupt to the bone and (for Hamas) pure Islamo-fascist material, in other words you can’t even govern yourselves, and you made demands that are completely unrealistic. You are just one hell of a laughable bunch. Oh, and FYI, your famous “Right of Return”, it doesn’t even exist. I have looked everywhere and even asked international law professors: no one can find it. It’s pure fiction. Another nice try at obfuscating the masses. At any rate, even if it existed, you’re not going back to “Palestine” because it never existed in the first place and you lost the war you started. Aggressors turned vanquished are in no position to make demands. Time to turn the page and move on, although I know you won’t. Oh well, it’s your choice.
You’re great, you even embarrass the die-hard Zionists here. You should stick around!
jjs,
You must be new here because every bit of cheezy hasbara you’re regurgitating has been debunked so many times over the years with links, official government docs, and news reports that all you’re succeeding in doing is polishing your double-digit IQ for us.
I doubt too many people are going to engage you because we just don’t have time for maroons.
What you really mean is too much to answer, not enough talking points. You seriously a rank amateur at this aren’t you? Did the Israeli MFA give you a grant to create that phony web site?
link to jeromeslater.com
False. You really need to pick up your game if you want to play in this arena jjs. You’ve not going to get away with your infantile one liners here/
Here’s some homework for you:
Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen
link to guardian.co.uk
Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen
link to guardian.co.uk
Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?
link to huffingtonpost.com
Israel broke the truce, and chose the day of thee US presidential election to provide cover and minial reporting ion the attack.
According to Israel’s own MFA, Israel was very careful to observe the ceasefire and went so far as to arrest the militants non under their control who tried to violate it.
Some advice. At least read your own talking points before you spew them on this forum.
Israel’s excuse for the raid ion Nov 4 2008 had nothing to do with rocket atacks. They made some lame excuse about a tunnel being built that they believed was being used to kidpan Isrli soldiers. Of course, no one bought that excuse, not even in Israel.
Perhaps Israel should have thought about that before they:
a) fired over 7,700 shells into Gaza in 190 months after they withdrew from Gaza.
b) imposed the illegal and inhumane siege on Gaza
c) invaded Gaza in 2006 after the elections that brought Hamas to power or
d) backed a coup by Fatah to overthrow Hamas.
No not really. You see, Israel timed their Gaza massacre (which killed mainly women and children BTW) to start on the day of the elections and end just prior to Obama’s inauguration, so they only had 22 days to carry out their slaughter.
That depends what those choices are. The only choice available to those in Gaza is the same choice the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were given – to die quietly or to die fighting.
The Palestinians have given up on terrorism years ago. Hamas declared an end to suicide attacks in 2006. Still, you can’t blame the Palestinians for trying. Terrorism worked for Israel so why not the Palestinians. Israel was founded on terrorism by terrorist who went on to become leaders of the country. Israel stands as a monument to terrorism, so you can;t blame he Palestinians of wanting to follow the Zionist formula for success.
Hell, Israel even celebrated the 60th anniversary of a terrorist attack in it’s name in 2006, and the festivities were attended by Netenyahu, much to the offense of the British – that’s how Israel treats it’s friends.
I am not Palestinian, but you can;t blame them for having a dysfunctional society. How many successful societies do you know that function under barbaric and ruthless military occupation, ethnic cleansing, home evictions, home demotions, routine murder, and and check points?
You couldnt have looked very hard. Perhaps your Hasbara mother ship didn’t have it listed.
link to journals.cambridge.org
Sure, that explains why there are maps of Palestine going back to 600 BC and no maps of Israel
I second that jjs,
We really could use the comic relief. I bet you’re not even pro Israel, but some anti Semite trying to make Zionists look bad.
It’s cruel of Phil and Adam to let a hasbara-reared lamb like jjs into the lion’s den.
Tsk tsk tsk – and I thought you’re a coupla nice jewish guys.
Sorry,
That last post was supposed to read:
According to Israel’s own MFA, Hamas was very careful to observe the ceasefire and went so far as to arrest the militants non under their control who tried to violate it.
—-I am not Palestinian, but you can;t blame them for having a dysfunctional society—
they weren’t doing real well when the Grand Mufti and his clan were running things either.
they’re sure likely to do better in the future, when they can run their own nation of Palestine.
I’m sad to say that I did, mainly for the sake of those who frequent this blog but don’t comment. It’s also fun to blast these lemmings out of the water once in a while – get’s rid of the mundane frustrations of life. It won’t sink in, but it should make clear to the likes of jjs that they can’t get way with their cheap one line Hasbara BS.
“I bet you’re not even pro Israel, but some anti Semite trying to make Zionists look bad.”
jjs is to zionism as Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Sharon Angle and Christine O’Donell are to the Republican party. In other words, they don’t help the already crappy image.
i think he took a wrong turn mm. he should go play security guard at dkos where they have the pc squad and rating specialists. he’d fit in nicely over there.
Yes, lipstick on a pig.
> link to journals.cambridge.org
Impressive research. I’m talking about the non-existence of the oft-repeated “Right of Return” for the Palestinians, and I get a reference about refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina! Shall we talk about the Armenian genocide while we’re at it? I repeat my question: where is the source of the mantra that there is a Right of Return for the Palestinians? I’m genuinely interested. I maintain that it is a fraud. There is no such thing. But maybe I’m wrong: I invite you to prove me that I am.
Hi Seham,
JJS made some valid points, it would add to your credibility if you’d try to debate him, instead of just one-line attacks.
JJS made some valid points, it would add to your credibility if you’d try to debate him
lol!!!
You claimed there was no right of return “doesn’t even exist”. The fact that ROR has been legally established as a percendet with respect to Bosnia-Herzegovina means that it also applies to the Palestinians.
We could, but what do you hope to achieve apart from derailing the discussion and changing the subject?
Israel is the only State admitted to UN membership on condition that it would be obedient to the world body and be bound, more specifically, by two General Assembly resolutions – of November 1947 for partition of Palestine and of December 1948 enshrining the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes or be satisfied with compensation. A document on UN record, dated 29 November 1948, reads: “On behalf of the State of Israel, I, Moshe Shertok, Minister for Foreign Affairs, being duly authorised by the State Council of Israel, declare that the State of Israel hereby unreservedly accepts the obligation of the UN Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations.”
None of the points JJS were valid or remotely factual. You might have noticed that I debunked every one of them. Even fuster is embarassed to be associated with JJS’s diatribes.
A right of return always belongs to those who had their homes and land stolen. So naturally Palestinians have had the right of return since that group of Jews kicked them out, and keep them out, at the very least, from 1947-2011. The right of return does not include biblical myths.
DBG, jjs is directly contradicting international law. He is directly rejecting the Geneva Conventions regarding population transfers.
That’s credible? I think not.
Are you the “validity and credibility” determinator, DBG?
You’ve got no idea how many times every single point of jjs’ has been refuted on this site – over and over and on and on and more of the same from the zionists yes always this ad nusium regurgitation.
This might explain the loud laughter at jjs’ thinking. Just go look up any article in Mondo’s archives, ANY ARTICLE, and you’ll find at least several of jjs’ points already hotly debated there.
For someone who claims to have been a long time reader DBG you sure gotta short short short short memory.
Taxi, I think Phil and Adam let that stuff go through to further discredit the Zionists.
the function served by flamethrowers like jjs is to distract, soak up energy more importantly expended on real arguments, not c-grade hasbara.
jjs’s presence is a tribute to Seham — she musta struck a noive.
again, well done, Seham.
instead of poking thru jjs’s garbage, sit back, drink a cup of tea, remind yourself that you are respected and cared for and about on this blog; rest your mind and your soul, then come out fighting again tomorrow.
“it is these incompetent parents who allow their children to be used as cannon fodder to make the Israelis look bad). The tactic is as old as it is despicable. The mark of a barbaric populace. ”
that’s a blood libel
Antidote,
Not even necessary to get all into the blood libel part of it (tho I agree) cuz it’s just sooo preposterous that we should enjoy it for the humor of it all!
true
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) – Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades
The PFLP claimed one suicide bombing perpetrated by 16-year-old Umar Abdullah al-Fa’r, in late 2004.42 Another 16-year-old, Sa’id al-Majdlawi, joined the armed wing and was killed the same year, according to the PFLP’s website.43 No other cases of child involvement had been recorded since then.
link to childsoldiersglobalreport.org
Yeah, everybody knows Arabs don’t love their children, especially Palestinian Arabs.
“Yeah, everybody knows Arabs don’t love their children, especially Palestinian Arabs.”
Please read this article on the origin of blood-libel charges against Jews in medieval Europe, and blood-libel charges against Palestinians in Israel. The myth of collective innocence (Jews) and collective guilt (anti-semites) needs to be debunked (without reversing the verdict, of course, which would be just as perverse), even though much of historical research on this issue never gets into the mainstream, which feeds propaganda, not historical facts
link to israelshamir.net
fuster – “Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) – Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades”"
PFLP -
Antidote, I was joking.
I got your sarcasm, citizen, that wasn’t my point. The view that ARabs don’t love their children, and that this constitutes THE MAIN OBSTACLE to peace, was most infamously expressed in Golda Meir’s: “We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”. The National Press Club in Washington swallowed it hook, line and sinker. And many inside and outside Israel still do. That the problem is Arab barbarism and anti-semitism, not what Israel has been doing. Mantra: ‘Whatever we do, they’ll hate us’.
I’ve seen many pathetic attempts at Hasbara from Israel apologists over the past decades that made me shake my head in disbelief but this one by jjs actually made me burst into tears from laughter.
I know Andre – I never realized there were so many sinks in a zionist kitchen!
or drains
jjs reads a lot like eee: They are both vicious and full of “common sense”. I wonder how long it will be before jjs asserts that the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was a “required” evil…
But lying is second nature to Palestinian writers, isn’t it, Seham?
I believe this comment violates the following clause of the comments policy:
What happened to screening comments?
jjs
Where did you spend the last 60 years, if you are that old, that you did not notice the brutality of that criminal apartheid state of Israel? In an institute for blind and deaf?
It seems the whole world is wrong, we are all anti-semitic and have nothing else to do, but connive the destruction of Israel?
The present situation started when european jews illegally took palestinian lands by force, killed or deported the occupants and established a fascistic apartheid state that beats even the nazis.
You should never dare to complain about the holocaust, you are not better than those killers were. Regardless if you kill ten million or hundred thousand, in both cases you are a mass murder.
seham, a very small comfort, but it still feels good (Merkel to Netanyahu: “How dare you?”)
link to haaretz.com
Basically, everybody in the EU had enough of Bibi
Haaretz is a piece of trash. But even if it wasn’t, which unfortunately too many Israelis believe, I’d like to ask how come there isn’t a Palestinian equivalent, who would be free to advocate opinions contrarians to the orthodoxy of the PA or, better yet, of Hamas? Could it be because Palestinian society is not a functional democracy and because anyone who expresses the idea of making peace with Israel ends up executed as a “collaborator”? When you have the equivalent of Haaretz, let me know and we’ll be able to talk. Otherwise, just keep quiet.
ma’an news is pretty good.
No it’s not. It is the mouthpiece of the PA.
jjs,
We’ll do this really slowly so you can understand. There’s a cup. Then there’s coffee. Ha’aretz is a cup, just like the NYT or Arutz Sheva. Content is the coffee.
Wake up and smell it.
_______________________________
P.S. Einstein: equivalency was not the issue.
Hahha, that’s awesome. Even an Israeli web site is not pro Israeli enough for our resident Trainer and Educator in the Middle East .
It’s pretty hard to maintain a functional democracy when under sadistic military occupation, ethnic cleansing, home demolitions, home evictions and no self determination (which Israel denies then at the UN every year).
When you have the equivalent of Haaretz, let me know and we’ll be able to talk.
Ummm, but didn’t you say that “Haaretz is a piece of trash”? You sound awfully muddled. Too much Zioncaine perhaps?
And who is Haaretz the mouthpiece of jjs?
typical strategy – deflection and telling people to shut up. No criticism allowed. That’s exactly why and how Israel is losing friends.
Another example:
link to spiegel.de
stop being a yutz, jjs. you can’t expect the Palestinians to have an honest major news source while they’re still not allowed to set up a free society.
what they now have are news sources that are controlled by factions.
a decent free press follows a decently free society it doesn’t precede it.
you can’t run an occupation and bitch about the quality of news coming out of it.
even you cats can’t be that stupidly hypocritical. ( I say that a lot, but you still find ways )
so suck it up and stop the crap about “just be quiet”
It isn’t just hard, its impossible. Democracy is rule by the people. Being under military occupation means rule by the military occupation army. Democracy and military rule are incompatible.
what’s the name of that female racist ziobot freak editor of jpost? now there’s a ‘free’ society for ya.
quick edit is my friend! glick. the joys of a racist apartheid state is journos like her.
Jjs, why don’t you work with your kindred spirit trying to free Pollard so he really will be in Israel, rather than just statues of him adorned with flowers? Or take your crass hasbara rhetoric, your crass list of florid lies, to the web site run in behalf the survivors of the USS Liberty and in memory of the US sailors who were murdered on that ship by the Israeli Air Force that day in 1967.
Oh, those poor, in-fighting, dishonest Arabs! The just don’t know how to have themselves a free society.
Your worse than Witty for sneaking your racism in through the back door, fuster. Post some evidence that Ma’an is lying about anything.
I’m torn, on the one hand it’s good that everyone is taking the time and energy to respond to jjs should there be some Americans reading these comments that are confused and need to have I/P explained to them from scratch. On the other hand I think that anyone reading Mondoweiss has got a crash course on I/P and doesn’t need the basics explained and or debunked for them.
And then to respond to jjs talking about Maan being a mouthpiece for the PA–actually the PA’s mouthpiece is called WAFA news. But even if Maan was the PA mouthpiece, why should that be an “issue” for jjs since the PA per the Palestine Papers have been completely outed as co-conspirators with any and all Israeli policies as a matter of fact they even offer the Israelis things that the Israelis never even asked for.
But can you see what happened here people? We were all discussing the future of the Mideast and the impact of the revolutions in the Arab world until jjs came along and distracted you and manipulated you to start talking about pure nonsense. Please stop getting duped.
Well said.
Perhaps when such pure hasbara appears as a comment here it should be acknowledged as such by the first commenter to see it:
“X, your comment is pure hasbara. Hasbara is ignored here.”
And nobody else will respond to that hasbara comment.
And that’s it, thus the thread developing facts and ideas evoked by any article posted on Mondoweiss will be easy to follow with minimum diversion, interrupted only by the hasbarabot puke immediately followed by a single constant simple identifier of obvious Israeli propaganda for passer-bys. Repeat each time hasbarabot puke appears. No need to keep rehashing things long ago completely refuted repeatedly on Mondoweiss.
Gee, if only we had some some sort of system of comment moderation so that people who posted blatant libel, racist epithets and cut and paste cookie cutter crap didn’t crowd out conversation on the blog…. Huh, what a novel idea, right?
Highly significant, Antidote. Good find.
This is a diplomatic game-changer within the EU. The US can come up with all the plans it wants for Egypt and the ME, written by AIPAC under orders from Bibi, but it’s finished. Egypt will get help from the EU now if the US withdraws aid. A stable Egypt will be a beacon for northern Africa. Germany has to consider its trade with China, which is whistling along wonderfully, and China has huge interests in Africa.
I think you can also read this as Germany telling the US, and an emasculated Obama, to fuck off. It’s an incredible article.
MRW, I wonder where this is going. Also note that according to Wikileaks revelations, the Obama admin has also reoriented themselves towards Asia and China rather than Europe and Germany. It certainly raised some eyebrows in Germany at the time. So I don’t know who is writing off whom. Clearly, there are increasing conflicts of interest between the US and the EU when it comes to economic and financial policies, and Germany, as the strongest economy in Europe, is necessarily in the eye of the storm. The EU and Euro are in obvious trouble. As an export economy dependent on Arab oil, the I/P conflict has been a constant source of trouble for Germany anyway, interfering with German political and business relations with the Arab and Muslim countries. What’s happening in the ME will to a large extent determine whether the EU survives or not. Germany will have to remain able to bail out other countries, or the monetary union is definitely over.
Dream on. If Israel has to defend itself and wage war in Gaza or Lebanon it will and neither Turkey or Egypt will join the fight. Why would they? As for Hezballah, during Cast Lead they did not fire one rocket. Why would they do so now when Lebanon is more vulnerable because it is under their control?
Defend itself and wage war eee? Does it ever occur to you that these are murually exclusive xmcinceots or has Mubarak’s and Gadaffi’s dementia already infected your collective minds?
Eee doesn’t know the difference, Shingo. And he’s not alone by a long shot. See my subsequent comment to yours.
“Dream on. If Israel has to defend itself and wage war in Gaza or Lebanon it will and neither Turkey or Egypt will join the fight. Why would they? As for Hezballah, during Cast Lead they did not fire one rocket. Why would they do so now when Lebanon is more vulnerable because it is under their control?”
Why do I continue to be shocked that Israelis can’t see past a few hours into the future and that they still think they are dealing with the same Arabs that they were dealing with a few months ago?
few hours into the future: It’s whatever their game theory tells them. It helps to dehumanize neighboring populations. Children included.
If Hamas persists in firing rockets into Israel and Israel goes on Cast Lead II, what exactly will the Egyptian army do? Start a war with Israel? Egypt is bankrupt after 30 years of Mubarak and its army is based on US equipment. The last thing the Egyptians now want is a war. What they want is peace and quiet so tourism to Egypt will resume as quickly as possible.
What exactly will the Turks do? Provide weapons to Hamas? People who live in glass houses do not throw stones. They would not like to see the Kurds armed with Western technology.
And the last thing Lebanon needs is a devastating war. Most Lebanese would not lift a finger to help Palestinians.
So nothing much has really changed and will not for a long while.
Remind me again who’s the violent military supremacist around here?
The last thing Israel needs is a devastating war. They can be attacked from any angle now, lets say it will be worse in 5 years. They don’t have much left except their small state and it’s illegal territories. They’re delusional, because their strategy has backfired.
And all you can do is criticize those that were your ally. Rich, indeed. No wonder Israel is all alone. The world is changing, all around you, except for Israel. You’re trapped in a sense. A new chapter of the Bible can be written.
They will have to learn how to behave and stand on their own.
Reminds me of that movie, The Garden Of The Vizi-Continis (sic). Eees, belittling smugness reminds me of Rummy’s and Shrub’s.
eee is right – nobody wants war but Israel. So there will be more war.
Hamas are not firing rockets eee. But the Rafah crossing is now open, so the IDF won’t be able to ban reporters and the Red Cross from entering. That means that Israel won’t be able to cover up it’s crimes or dismiss allegations of war crimes as Hamas propaganda.
And when footage if Israeli brutality hit their airwaves in real time, the ugly truth about Israel will be so incontrovertible that not even the whores in Congress will be able to deny it.
Add eee to the list of those as delusional as Gadaffi.
Eee,
Has anyone ever explained to you the concept of cause and effect?
Seham,
Why do I continue to be shocked that Israelis can’t see past a few hours into the future and that they still think they are dealing with the same Arabs that they were dealing with a few months ago?
Let them, darlin’. You need to learn a little Sun Tzu. ;-)
Kisses.
—hey still think they are dealing with the same Arabs that they were dealing with a few months ago?—Seham
wish you all the good fortune in the world, but it’s still pretty early to be saying that it’s not the same Arabs.
“WITH two of the 19 Arab despots finally kicked out, there are 17 still to be removed. The Arab League has 22 members, and only Lebanon, Iraq and the Palestinian territories offer their people the right to vote in relatively free elections.”—Irfan Husain
link to dawn.com
Can we see that calculation done again as percentages of Arab population? Kind of much more relevant.
Lebanon is more vulnerable because it is under their control
um, you skipped a step
Dream on. If Israel has to defend itself
It has never had to defend itself. It’s always been the aggressor, instigator, and shit disturber. Dennis the Menace in the neighborhood with Daddy’s arsenal.
And may I repeat for you, eee, the street here in the US is getting tired of it. The worse thing that can happen to Israel is not passion for or against it, it’s when the ennui with Israel’s stunning inability to grow up becomes overwhelming. Mark my words.
And it is entirely of Israel’s own making. This isn’t a Jewish thing, although to use hophmi’s argument that since the majority of Israelis are Jews (because as hophmi says the majority of Americans are Christian and therefore targetable) we’re now allowed to criticize Jews here with respect to Israel with wild abandon…per hophmi. So, the Jews in Israel are doing themselves no favors, and neither are the simple-minded one-note Jews in this country.
The chapter for peace is passing, and Israel is to blame at this point. Years from now, we’ll be witnessing a cohesive arab alliance much like Europe, with the potential for the decaying remnants of a dystopian state that once occupied the core. It’s inevitable based on the population growth. Zionism will lose, but Israel will have to learn that by herself through it succession of failed leaders.
Chu, you are exactly 100% on the money–that’s what we are all speculating will happen: a cohesive and beautiful Pan-Arab alliance based on the benefit and mutual interests of Arab countries with Israel begging to be allowed to be a part of that. That’s what the future of BDS will be, I mean no disrespect to all the people in the BDS movement in the states but the largest impact will be when these united Arab countries refuse to allow Israel to play with them until they grant the Palestinians their freedom.
Unleashing Growth Potential in the Middle East
from The Full Feed from HuffingtonPost.com by Masood Ahmed
Recent popular protests in the Middle East and North Africa region, although likely to have a negative economic impact in the short run, might actually help to unleash the countries’ long-term growth potential. link to huffingtonpost.com
I’m generally distrustful of the IMF — I can’t speak for this particular author, but as an organization their agenda for “reform” is neoliberalism. However, wherever the IMF might like this to go, I think these Arab countries are on the cusp of having the renaissance that was delayed when corporate/colonial powers appointed the powers that be, that have been for several decades now since the end of the first two world wars.
I tried to delete this comment right with the link to huffpo after posting it but the edit feature is not working for me. I promise to be less trigger happy with my posting of links and read before posting. I do not endorse IMF mafia.
Now, now. It’s a thought provoking topic and we can always talk about how our opinions and expectations differ from that of the gentleman you cited. ;)
you’re wrong!! you’re all wrong!!
Israel has technology!! Nobel prizes! hi GDP!
oh — sorry. I’m PG not eee.
pop
but the largest impact will be when these united Arab countries refuse to allow Israel to play with them until they grant the Palestinians their freedom.
Yeah, it’s called oil.
I’m generally distrustful of the IMF? Generally?
Chaos…should be fully.
I’m generally overcautious in my use of absolutes. That should tell you something about the things I do not bend on.
chaos, MRW is correct
—Why would they do so now when Lebanon is more vulnerable because it is under their control?—
Why?
because Hezbollah very well may be told to fire rockets by the people who own the rockets that Hezbollah receives.
You know this “Ahmedinejad as Cobra Commander” canard is getting very tired. Just tell us you want to bomb Iran already. We know that’s where you’re going, fuster.
Nope, don’t want to bomb Iran. I want the Iranians to free themselves from the vile theocrat murderers.
The “bomb Iran” game is over, no matter how many warmongering movies Israel makes. Libya only produces 2% of the world’s oil, yet the current revolutionary instability has sent prices spiking. This is just a hint of what might happen in any war with Iran.
If there’s one thing that the US Congress cares more about than its bribes from AIPAC, it’s the price of oil.
Nope, don’t want to bomb Iran. I want the Iranians to free themselves from the vile theocrat murderers.
2/3rds of Iranians support Ahmadinejad according to this poll:
link to voltairenet.org
I want Israelis to stop supporting people that support the annexation of Palestinian land, many of whom support these apartheid policies for religious reasons (god gave them the land mumbo jumbo). We apparently don’t always get what we want.
And we want the Palesrinians to free themselves from the vile theocrat murderers in Tel Aviv.
At least the vile theocrat murderers in Iranandive were voted in by a majority.
don’t think that you read that poll exactly correctly, Seham. It’s says that 2/3 favor continuing the present regime with MA as president of it.
that’s a bit different and not a good sign for the regime.
–I want Israelis to stop supporting people that support the annexation of Palestinian land–
that’s something on which we agree and we probably will get that.
vile theocrat murderers?
Nowhere near the number of killings and murders that Israel has done in occupied Gaza since 1979.
So, 2/3rds of Iranians don’t favor keeping Ahmedinejad as President because… they’re… favoring keeping Ahmedinejad as the current president? Yeah, thanks for clearing that up for us.
Thanks Chaos, I was scratching my head wondering whether I needed to respond to that or not.
you’re quite wrong. the Iranian regime has executed thousands of their own citizens since 79.
How many fuster?
Why? The Republicans or Democrats would love 2/3 support and approval.
Is it just me, or is fuster just posting random things about Iran in response to everything?
singapore has the highest execution rate per capita in the world.
the Iranian regime has executed thousands of their own citizens since 79
how many thousands? would you care to break that down per capita and compare it to how many executions the zionist regime has carried out on the people they rule over? per capita?
let’s take an honest look at who doles out more death to those under it’s jurisdiction.
dare ya.
It is estimated that over 20000 political prisoners were killed in Iran between 1981 and 1988.
In these unmarked graves lie thousands of political prisoners killed by the Islamic regime in the 1980s- most of them during
a secret mass massacre in the summer of 1988.Amnesty International is calling on the Iranian authorities to “immediately stop the destruction of hundreds of individual and mass, unmarked graves in Khavaran, south Tehran, to ensure that the site is preserved and to initiate a forensic investigation into the site as part of a long-overdue thorough, independent and impartial investigation into mass executions which began in 1988.”
during the iran iraq war? why start there, why not go back during the era of our shah?
he’s jagging on iran.
Estimated by whom? Other estimates put it at 3000, and most fo those being members of the terrorist group the MEK.
Why not provide a link fuster? Are you embarrassed to show where you get your Hasbara and anti Iran hysteria talking points from?
annie, you got an answer and you’re just sliding away from looking at it.
you asked me, no you dared me, to show you something. look at it and stop bullshitting it away.
here’s some photos from 1979
link to online.wsj.com
First fuster downplayed what Zionists did to murder and steal from Palestinians (“You doubt me? You hate Jews!”) and now he’s exaggerating what’s going on Iran (which is bad enough without his lies; “You doubt me? You love Iran!”)
Why are Zionists always full of shit?
Oh but Annie don’t you get it by now – Palestinians aren’t people in the Israeli calculus. That’s why in all seriousness your comparison would make absolutely no sense to them.
What, no pictures of what the US/Britain/Israeli backed Shah was doing (or then again…)? Or how about pictures of the dead that Saddam Hussein created for us, when he was still working for us and we were still allowing him to make chemical weapons and providing the satellite pictures to deploy them?
i’m not interested in your photos. the dare was to prove iran has killed more people per capita under it’s rule than israel. you don’t nothing. i’m not interested in your pictures.
this will be my last response to you unless you cough up some sources for your numbers. and then once they are confirmed we can figure out the percentage per capita (you don’t seem to be to worried singapores executions exceeds iran per capita) and make some comparisons to the zionist apartheid regime.
your problem here as i see it is we’ve all been so inundated w/israels hasbara to bomb iran the last few years it means nothing to us. you’re just a TROLL FOR ZIONISM.
Why no epicures of the 1000 Egyptian POW’s Israel killed in the Sinai in 1967?
i know bijou. the ‘groovy’ factoid about evil enemy iran is israel gets to pretend it’s the little victim we all need to protect. it’s preferred image for world sympathy. those days are over.
the palestinians are a non people to him.
shingo, or the executions in gaza where they lined up the men
annie, I gave you a conservative number of political prisoners killed by the theocrats in one time period.
how about you put up something for your childish dare?
where’s your number of people executed by the Israelis for political crimes so that the comparison can be made?
That wasn’t a conservative number fuster and what’s more, you weer too embarrassed to even link to it.
shingo, Estimated by whom? Other estimates put it at 3000, and most fo those being members of the terrorist group the MEK.
Why not provide a link fuster?
he has no link. he’s just bullshitting us. wasting our time. i’m over responding to his crap. a bunch of lies.
you can post your pictures of that, Shingo. I’ve not seen any.
don’t much doubt that it might have happened. the Israelis killed some Egyptian POWs in the first war.
nope annie. google Iran and mass executions if you don’t want to search through the very slow-loading Amnesty International site.
you’ll find 20,000 for that instance from several other places, including Iranian dissident sites.
Iran is not particularly democratic, but it is not a dictatorship either. The system has quite broad base, has elements of pluralism, and the rulers are much too competent to our liking.
Basically, under pressure the system can relax and still maintain its character, after all, they did it before. And this of course would be good. Just do not expect too much. Recall that the spiritual leader of the opposition is a “liberal” grand ayatollah.
In turn, Hezbollah, probably in consultation with Iranian sponsors, plays a long and subtle game. Check in Wiki who invented chess.
piotr, the Iranian theocracy IS a dictatorship.
the head of state is not elected by the people but is a religious nutter selected by a small group of religious nutters.
all the real power of the state rests in the chief theocrat’s hands.
to be even allowed to run for the elective offices you must first be approved by the UNelected theocrats.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
look t the diagram. the judiciary and all the armed forces are not responsive to anyone but the old nutters.
the elected guys are no more than a front.
For anyone interested, I’ve got a link to a US government website on the 1988 Iranian killings, written in 2010. (The US can’t exactly be considered a pro-Iranian source, obviously.) The website says Amnesty International estimated the number of killings between 4000 and 5000, with others claiming greater than 10,000.
So it’s bad, but not the 20,000 fuster seems to have seen. Nobody knows for sure.
link
There’s no particular reason I’m aware of why we should be defending the Iranian government’s human rights record in the 1980′s. If it’s a competition, which it isn’t, Israel killed maybe 20,000 or so people (the majority civilian) in Lebanon in 1982.
So? That doesn’t make them any different at all than Israel, fuster.
you’re quite wrong. the Iranian regime has executed thousands of their own citizens since 79.
Prove it. And the date is 1979.
Hi Annie,
Iran as a nation transformed after the Islamic Revolution. I don’t see how deaths under the Shah would be relevant. We are more interested in the government, not the people of Iran.
I am really confused by the type of arguments which are prevalent by the commenters here. Are there pro-Palestinian methods of argument I am not privy to?
Are there pro-Palestinian methods of argument I am not privy to?
apparently.
Why, fuster? That won’t make the Egyptian people love Israel more.
Considering Yossi considers ad hominem a valuable debate tactic and openly said so? Most Zionists are apparently arguing from some bizarro world set of tactics where lying and slander are prized tactics. But we’ve already felt that.
Who owns the F16s that Israel has received fuster?
BTW Hezbollah have missiles, not just rockets. All it needs is for a few of the to hit Tel Aviv and the oil facilities at Haifa and it’s game over.’
Israelis will leave in droves once they decode Israel is no longer safe.
the thing is, where they gonna go?
Isn’t that what Israel was supposed to be, the place where Jews could go?
Shingo sez—(and for some reason sounds boastful)—
All it needs is for a few of the to hit Tel Aviv and the oil facilities at Haifa and it’s game over.’
Israelis will leave in droves—
they’ll be stopping up north for a bit on their trip, Shingo, so let’s hope that those missiles don’t fly because that’ll mean game over for a great many people in Lebanon and Syria.
it won’t be anywhere near to the limited level of last time. if those missiles hit Tel Aviv, there won’t be a Beirut or Damascus.
so let’s keep those rockets in their pockets.
they are more than enough dead already.
Ha!
All joking aside? They’ll pull out those old dusty passports from their other homelands and put those to use. Assuming the IDF hasn’t actually confiscated them all to forge cover identities for their assassin squads, anyway.
Or a Cairo, or an Amman, or an Istanbul. Because Israel will nuke them all.
That’s what you’re saying, isn’t it, fuster? “Don’t resist us or we will wipe you off the face of the earth and then poison the earth under you so nothing will live there again.”
Fuster are you implying that Israel would use nuclear weapons if a missile hit Tel Aviv? If that’s what you are saying then I can’t see any reason why Iran should not have nuclear weapons.
Seham, not at all. don’t even think such a thing. no nukes.
but a hell of a lot of conventional bombs and missiles will return fire if Hezbollah sends missiles to Tel Aviv.
Whole neighborhoods in Beirut levelled? Cluster bombs literally covering the countryside? Even UN observers as casualties to the violent, bloodthirsty rage of Zionist military might?
Yeah, we’ve seen that, fuster.
I remain unconvinced that Israel won’t threaten nuclear holocaust though.
There was no limit to the carnage last time Fuster. Israel stopped because they weren’t making a dent in Hezbollah’s fighting ability or resolve and Israelis were dying.
Israel has no stomach for death tolls.
If those missiles hit Tel Aviv, there won’t be a Tel Aviv either.
Fuster,
They used a lot of bombs and missiles against Lebanon and against Gaza and that did not get Israel anything. In Gaza the “win” that Palestinians got is that the Israeli killing machine and the U.S. complicity in the atrocities has been exposed to all that have been paying attention. Eventually, (and probably very soon) the PA and all of its symbols will vanish from the West Bank and the next generation of Palestinian leaders won’t be relying on U.S. intervention, the U.S. has made itself obsolete as far as the Arabs are concerned.
The “win” for Hezbollah is that Israel did not meet any of its objectives in the war against Lebanon. They said they would repel Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon and now Hezbollah’s coalition is running the country. They said they would destroy Hezbollah and military Hezbollah is armed better than ever. And don’t be fooled, even those Arabs that despise Hezbollah respect the fact that they have repelled Israel twice from southern Leb–something that no Arab army has done. Can you please name one single thing, just one, that Israel “won” or accomplished from the war on Lebanon? I’ve asked this question so many times and no one ever responds. And also, if missiles start flying all over the place how long before all those Israelis that have dual citizenship somewhere else, leave? Arabs aren’t going to give up you see, cause they have nowhere else to go.
lot of Arabs living in my city, Seham. we welcome them here.
I can’t name one thing that the US won in VietNam, Seham, but that only made the US a lot more determined that next time it would be the other guys who didn’t win anything.
You’re wildly overestimating what Hezbollah can do. Next time it isn’t going to be badly trained troops going against carefully prepared defenses in the South.
The Israelis aren’t going let Hezbollah pick the terrain now that Hezbollah has to defend all of Lebanon.
If the missiles hit Tel Aviv, it will indeed be anywhere in Lebanon
but, let’s not hope for that next time
7:29 on still not published at 9:09.
not a clue why not.
That’s exactly what Israel did in 2006, fuster. They hit everywhere. Literally everywhere in Lebanon.
I think Hezbollah’s ready for a repeat of that, if Israel forces it upon them.
Phil and Adam are having dinner, I suspect……
Nah, I think they were eating dessert watching idiots hang themselves in the comments section.
eee and his bloodthirsty regime really wants an excuse for another war, just to see more Arab deaths.
He also lusts for it because Israel still haven’t recovered from the whopping that Hezbollah gave them. They tried to convince themselves that Cast Lead reinstated their deterrence capacity, but that was just a sad argument that no one is buying.
Shingo, you must be the guy who advised Saddam that because the US took a beating in VietNam Saddam was safe invading Kuwait. The US wouldn’t fight it and if they did, the US wouldn’t win.
Please don’t go wishing for another Israel/Hezbollah war, because it won’t at all be a small and restrained affair as the last one was.
There are already too many dead.
God only knows where you hear this BS, but no one made that argument to Saddam. Saddam invaded Kuwait because he April Glasby (US ambassador to Iraq at the time) gave him the green light to do so.
Eee’s the one getting an erection over another war, but while it will be mroe destructive than the last, Israel are going to lose again.
And what then, fusty, when Israel stands hip-deep in corpses with its hands incarnadined? When the world at last sees the face of the monster? When the land is glowing ashes and you flee from what you have done, only to find that all doors are shut in your face?
What then, O Pariah?
Netanyafi.
That’s good, MRW.
Seham: “Instead, since the fall of Ben Ali and Mubarak and now the impending fall of Qadhafi the world is witnessing increased brutality and cruelty by the Israeli regime against the Palestinian people, in particular the last few weeks Israelis have targeted children which they are harassing” (emphasis added).
On this point, I very much fear you are wrong, at least inside USA. No-one much is witnessing. If a tree falls in a forest * * *.
As to USA stupidity, Obama is the captain of one of those enormous oil-tankers; they don’t turn quickly or stop quickly. He is advised, heaven help us all, not merely by yes-men operating within the DC echo-chamber, but group-think-men saying yes to AIPAC and no-one dares (if it even occurs to them) to raise a question about the BIG PICTURE (USA’s military empire) and the LITTLE PICTURE (Israel). It is probably irrelevant, the way things work, whether he sympathizes or not with the pro-Israel, screw-the-world policy the USA’s occupied (or been occupied by) for all these years. And, in any case, he wants to be re-elected. The utter stupidity of repeating that tired line about not wishing to disturb the peace process, by its utter lack of originality if not by anything else, shows at least tiredness, perhaps despair, about the whole USA-Israel axis; but not much he can do.
As to war: no neighbor can defeat Israel, but Israel also likes to shoot fish in a barrel — do the war-crimes bit in fact — not to get shot-back-at, as Hizballah seems prepared to do. I don’t see the army of Egypt intervening in another Gaza extravaganza — Egyptians want to enjoy their democracy for a while, not get all shot up — but thoughts of Goldstone hover and might prevent another bludgeoning of Gaza.
One point however: Israel has always acted like a war-addict, or wife-beater. It doesn’t want to take a chance on getting itself injured, but it feels empty, incomplete, unfulfilled, if it doesn’t trash a neighbor from time to time. So it might feel it has to attack someone. Isn’t June the month when the mud is dry enough to drive tanks? We’ll have to wait to see. (I don’t see Hamas or Hizballah starting the attack.)
Pabelmont,
They simply cannot invade anymore Arab countries or Gaza anymore without massive Israeli casualities. The only reason they were able to do so in the past was because Arab regimes were complicit.
Israel won’t be stupid enough to put itself in a position where it has to defend its borders on all fronts, Israel will never have Arab airspace to conduct any attacks, and the remaining Arab regimes are far too fragile to allow any of this to happen with their approval.
For how long can Israel defend itself from grad rockets from Gaza, whatever Hezb has been accumulating during the last war, and whatever Iran has in its arsenal? And though I don’t have anything I can point to other than Egypt thumbing it’s nose at the US and Israel and allowing Iranian warships to pass through the Suez and the fact that they feel like they are accountable to the people… I can say that I’m still fairly certain that if Israel attempted to attack Gaza again that Gaza would certainly get help from all surrounding countries. I don’t think Egypt has done anything to stop the smuggling from tunnels lately.
I do understand why you think that Israel can continue to be Israel and I don’t put you in the same category as eee and maybe I should just shut up and we can sit back and watch the events as they unfold but the consensus among every single Arab in every single Arab country that I have talked to is that the days of Israeli warmongering are over.
Maybe we are getting ahead of ourselves, but, I doubt it.
There’s also the small matter of trade. Israel f**ked up its relationship with Turkey when Ayalon put the Turkish Ambassador to Israel on a lower chair than Ayalon a year ago with no Turkish flag and called in camera crews to film it. A big diplomatic no-no. The proverbial straw that broke the back….
Turkey does enormous amounts of trade with the EU. Israel piggy-backs on that, or did. If Israel goes on an attacking binge or starts another war, the EU will retaliate by refusing all Israeli-made goods. Israel will cry anti-semitism, but that wont work. It’s now called national prerogative.; there’s no law, nor any sympathy with the idea, that says you have to do business with a country because their majority is Jewish.
I am glad you don’t think me to be like “eee”. My sense is that he is a friend of Israel and I assure you I am not; I have been a supporter of Palestinian rights since 1980, if it it matters. See here for example. No reason you should have known.
I cannot predict military things. My sense is that neither Jordan nor Egypt nor Lebanon nor Syria could prevent Israeli fly-overs — consider Israel’s shoot-down of Syrian planes before the 1967 war (if I remember aright).
Perhaps the real question is how far Israel can stretch the rubber-band of USA’s tolerance before it snaps. Why has it been so gentle (yes gentle) with Gaza and the West Bank. It could have done so very much worse. Perhaps the ISA has some “red lines” we don’t know about, or perhaps Israel suspects there might be after-the-fact “red lines”.
The siege of Gaza has been a disaster for Gaza, a continuing disaster, and still no “war” from Gaza. Why not? Perhaps it is just that Israel is too strong.
No war from Lebanon/Hisb in reaction to the siege of Gaza. Not for want of sympathy. War is very, very serious business and all these people have recently suffered from it.
At the moment there is stalemate. What Egypt may do we must wait to see.
Everything about the occupation is so horrible and so unnecessary, so cruel, so pointless, so greedy (OK, not pointless, but greedy); the international community has so far said, “not my problem” (perhaps scared off by the USA, perhaps enjoying trade with Israel, perhaps bribed/bought like USA’s politicians). One senses that the ice-jam must break. The Arab uprising is a break, but it is not a break for the rest of the international community,
This is not the theater, not a play. Everyone is wondering what to do, wondering what the other players will do. For me, there is one clear path, one moral or ethical or decent — and surely legal — path: real coercive action by the international community. But I am not holding my breath. I have lost all faith in my country, the USA, and just hope that when it falls, it will not fall too hard or do too much damage elsewhere. (Same for Israel, as to damage elsewhere.)
I am sorry to have seemed in opposition to you. I value your contributions on this blog enormously. And I sense how tired you are, how tired everyone is, waiting for someone to make something decent happen.
Pabelmont, you might be interested in this:
link to nakedcapitalism.com
And, tangentially, his subsequent one:
link to nakedcapitalism.com
Pablemont, I don’t question your politics at all I just feel that you are looking at I/P and the whole region though old glasses when the new reality–the very, very new reality is much different.
I cannot predict military things. My sense is that neither Jordan nor Egypt nor Lebanon nor Syria could prevent Israeli fly-overs — consider Israel’s shoot-down of Syrian planes before the 1967 war (if I remember aright).
I can imagine that Iran would be able to prevent those flyovers and I can imagine that in the new Middle East where Egypt doesn’t care if it scares Israel that Iranian ships pass through the Suez that they would feel that as a matter of survival they would allow anyone to help them in the future–and nobody is looking for help from the U.S. anymore.
Perhaps the real question is how far Israel can stretch the rubber-band of USA’s tolerance before it snaps. Why has it been so gentle (yes gentle) with Gaza and the West Bank. It could have done so very much worse. Perhaps the ISA has some “red lines” we don’t know about, or perhaps Israel suspects there might be after-the-fact “red lines”.
I think that the rubberband of US tolerance if such a thing even exists is more than irrelevant now.
The siege of Gaza has been a disaster for Gaza, a continuing disaster, and still no “war” from Gaza. Why not? Perhaps it is just that Israel is too strong.
There was no war from Gaza before because they were being strangled from all sides, the Egyptians were carrying out bombing and gassing campaigns against the tunnels on a weekly basis, the U.S. looked the other way as the siege was tightened, and Jordan did nothing to help. The borders between Egypt and Rafah are now open, and the tunnels I imagine are very busy. The grad rockets that went off yesterday are new, I bet they just got those.
No war from Lebanon/Hisb in reaction to the siege of Gaza. Not for want of sympathy. War is very, very serious business and all these people have recently suffered from it.
Of course war is serious business and Nasrallah has stated time and time again that they don’t want to instigate a war against Israel but that they are ready to respond–they said that when they weren’t in control of the government, but not they have a majority and there is no guarantee that Hezb will sit on their hands if Israel decides to wage war again. Things are very, very different now. This is not the same Middle East that was last month.
At the moment there is stalemate. What Egypt may do we must wait to see.
Well, we can go based off what Egypt has done so far:
-they let Iranin ships sail through the Suez
-they opened the borders
-they have a much more laxed position on the smuggling than previous “administration”
-they (for the first time) criticized the UNSC veto the other day
-they selected Tariq Al-Bishri to revise the new consitution and he is widely known and respected for his extremely fierce anti-Israel/pro-Palestine sentiments
let us hope that the days of invasions and war-mongering have ended.
Why? If Israel invades someone, oh, say, the Sinai like eee is hankering for, you’ll just insist they had it coming, like the Palestinians.
Forgive me if I doubt your sincerity. The days of suffering invasion are very much still alive. Just ask any Palestinian, Iraqi or Afghani.
Doubt it all you wish, Chaos.
but you haven’t always heard me see that “they had it coming”.
I’ve said quite different things about the invasion of Gaza and about Iraq.
Seham as much as I appreciate your passion, I have to say that your sense of the military balance of power in the ME is incorrect. Israel can and will engage in military violence against its neighbors for the foreseeable future and her neighbors will not be able to engage in a unified military response. That is a simple balance of military power. Israel is the only player that is armed with nuclear weapons and they have made it clear to the world that they will use them. They have the ability to kill 100s of millions. Not just that but the world’s only superpower has committed itself to support them if the military balance falls out of Israel’s favor.
These are simple undeniable facts of international reality. eee knows this, you can hear him lusting in his psychopathic imagination for a united Arab military response so Israel can unleash the ultimate dogs of war.
What a unitied Arab world can do, however, is to refuse to have any dealings with Israel. They can use their influence to support BDS, and with all of that oil they could have some real influence there. Israel can be more and more isolated from the rest of the world, and economically undermined, but war is not the way.
There will be more painful moments like operation cast lead and frustrations will run high. But violent reactions are what Israel needs to justify further violence. Peaceful witnessing of their atrocities are the patient response.
Toivo,
You;re assuming that it’s neighbors will engage Israel is a pitch battle, which pays to Israel’s strengths. As Hebollah demonstrated, that’s not the only option and cerainly not the way to deferat Israel.
Israel is much more vulnerable that most people realize. In all the wars it has fought, Israel itself has never been threatened, but all it takes is for a few missiles to get though to Tel Aviv and all of a sudden, Israel is like a turtle on it’s back.
Also remember that Israel can only sustain a war for a very short period of time without supplies coming in regularly.
As for nukes, the minute Israel resorts to them, it’s game over anyway.
Having said that , you are right that Israel needs to justify further violence or to justify itself for that matter.
Toivo,
I am not talking out of passion right now, I am talking about what realistically Israel is and is not able to do. Israel gets nothing out of carpet bombing Arabs, they get some dead Arabs and then many more enraged Arabs that will fight against it. They can’t use nukes, can you imagine what the “day after” looks like if Israel uses nukes in response to missiles? Be real. And if Israel kills Arabs at the rate that they did during Cast Lead and the war on Lebanon Israel will get attacked by all sides and there will be no Arab country that tries to stem the flow of weapons from Iran to Lebanon to Gaza.
Very good post Toivo.
Seham and Shingo
I think you over estimate the effectiveness of missiles armed with classical explosives. They are basically terror weapons against civilians and relatively easy to defend against (simple bomb shelters). With a disciplined population they really are not that effective. What exactly did the Germans accomplish bombing England during WWII — not very much.
Of course, the less disciplined and more sensible Israelis will be heading for the exits, but they are not the problem.
They can’t use nukes, can you imagine what the “day after” looks like if Israel uses nukes in response to missiles? Be real. You basically are arguing here that the use of nuclear weapons is unthinkable so don’t think about it. I know that the Israeli fanatics in WB settlements think about it. I heard one (reserve officer as well) in a heated argument make the threat explicit. Moshe Dayan certainly wanted the whole world to know that they were thinking about it.
Toivo,
It’s not a matter of over estimating the effectiveness of missiles armed with conventional explosives, it’s the fact that Israel have no sense or appreciation of what a conventional explosive can do. A 500lb bomb has a kill radius of 300 feet. That’s a major change to a Katusha rocket with no explosive head that only damaged what it effectively collides with.
So in that regard I disagree, they are indeed effective.
I think you over estimate the effectiveness of missiles armed with classical explosives. They are basically terror weapons against civilians and relatively easy to defend against (simple bomb shelters). With a disciplined population they really are not that effective. What exactly did the Germans accomplish bombing England during WWII — not very much.
I’m not overestimating, I am thinking about all plausible scenarios and all plausible outcomes and none bode well for Israel–unless they kill everyone in the region they are screwed if they try to pull any of their shenanigans again.
A massive bombing campaign against any Arab country is going to be televised the way the Egyptian Revolution was, that will only alienate Israel more than it already is. People are already asking questions, it’s not the same anymore. Any future bombing campaigns just isolate Israel more and more in the region, they can’t survive just in their own little bubble–no matter how much money the U.S. throws at them.
And Israel already is a pariah in the international community thanks to the intransigence of their right wing politicians and the stupidity of the Obama/Bush/Clinton administrations so if they used nukes can you even take a moment and think about what that looks like for Israel? I’m Arab, I think about it a lot, most Arabs think about it a lot and every single scenario that has been discussed and envisioned is not good for Israel. You tell me how you Israel gets to use nukes and live happily ever after? This is all fear mongering and I gotta tell you that the day of Arabs being terrified of what Israel may or may not do are long gone.
Cast Lead was televised 24/7 on Al-Jazeera and still it just went on and on… Not that I disagree with your fundamental thesis that the regional balance of power is in flux, between Turkey’s wise and far-thinking foreign policy (and the rift in its relationship with Israel); the revolutionary upheavals in Egypt (which have the potential to fundamentally change the power balance but the results are not all in yet…), Libya, and Tunisia; the demise of the plausibility of the “bomb bomb Iran” scare tactics; the inability of the US to bring any additional military might to solve Israel’s problems (ala Iraq — been there, done that, game over); the exposure of the total fraud of the “peace process” and the potential end, one hopes, of political division in Palestine; the changing balance of power in Lebanon; the potential for revolutionary change in Yemen, Jordan, and perchance even Syria… seriously, one could not have imagined so much change in so short a time a mere year ago. However, I think it’s premature to assume that Israel wouldn’t be able to generate some scenario in which it could lash out in war on one or more of its neighbors… the balance of power is shifting but that is still in flux. It will take time to solidify. And in fact in these times of upheaval are when the risks of Israel taking brash action are greatest. They’ve been ratcheting up the rhetoric in Gaza lately and you never know, they may want to seize the moment to “finish what they didn’t accomplish in Cast Lead.”
I think one thing has been exposed and laid bare for all to see and understand, and that is that the thing that threatens and terrifies Israel most of all IS democracy and peace. Rational Arab masses. Civil society. Integration. Cooperation… Under these scenarios, Israel looks one way towards the demographic explosion in Gaza, another towards the West Bank, and upwards toward Lebanon, and then inwards to its own Arab population, and just completely freaks…
Yeah Bijou, AJE and AJA did cover those wars but nobody was really watching. For Egypt and Tunisia most of the international media are getting their coverage from AJE. Even the flippin DrudgeReport has a permalink to AJE now, that’s a big difference.
My sense is that everyone is deterred from starting a major conflict at the moment. Several parties would have had a pretext, had that been all they wanted, to turn the Battle of the Tree into a grand forest fire, but none took advantage. This situation allows casual or routine ‘brutality and cruelty’ to continue unchecked for a bit. Of course this routine will run out of time eventually.
ToivoS – “You basically are arguing here that the use of nuclear weapons is unthinkable so don’t think about it. I know that the Israeli fanatics in WB settlements think about it. I heard one (reserve officer as well) in a heated argument make the threat explicit. Moshe Dayan certainly wanted the whole world to know that they were thinking about it.”
lil ‘ol Moshe obviously hadn’t got a clue about the dictates of Game Theory, in the event that the Israelis are actually stupid enough to signal any intention to engage in first-strike use of their Nuke arsenal
Re: “The utter stupidity of repeating that tired line about not wishing to disturb the peace process, by its utter lack of originality if not by anything else, shows at least tiredness, perhaps despair, about the whole USA-Israel axis; but not much he can do.”
The new Israel First Zionist plan in the USA with Israeli complicity, was just tossed in the air to gauge how it will fly at the Middle East Institute,
under the CSPAN topic, “Israel, Egypt, & The Middle East Unrest.”
The first recommended change is tha Obama put forth his own detailed plan for peace in the public eye and present it to both sides. The Jews in Congress are to rally their peers to this new plan and Congress and the WH will join to get the American masses on board. I detailed the major point of this plan on this blog yesterday. Obama’s courageous plan will be written by AIPAC with zionist complicity here and in Israel. The plan will be presented to the American people as created by Obama himself.
Sorry, I was wrong,. there is something the USA can do within the parameters set by AIPAC. It can make matters worse. As you suggest.
Just for shits and grins, citizen, alert Glenn Greenwald. He reads his email.
Also, read the Matt Stoller articles I recommended to pabelmont in the links above. I think he’s right. The genie is out of this bottle. The Egyptian people are not going to be fooled by any American plan for them, not when the US meally-mouthed its support in the first two weeks. And the EU will help them out financially if the USA uses its dollar muscle. Obama is dead meat to the Arab world; he’s perceived as weak and impotent after the UN vote. He blew it.
Greenwald looks like like the spitting image of my brother, but my brother’s nose is wider. Hi brother, are you reading?
Hey, just thought about this, citizen: is that why “American Jewish Leaders” were meeting with Netanyahu last week about ‘the Egyptian crisis’?
These people have more balls than brains.
I just watched all of this video, Wow, Frum is dumb. Did everyone know Arabs hate Americans because of scantily clad women on MTV?
What is the link to that video Seham?
Shingo, I think I’m losing it because I could have sworn that I got the link from MRW’s comment but I think I had a few windows opened, saw the comment by MRW and then watched it somewhere else… blah. Here is the link: link to antonyloewenstein.com
In the last ten minutes or so Greenwald and Frum discuss Israel and current events. Frum is a really incredibly dumb or he’s making stuff up!
Seham,
I just watched all of this video, Wow, Frum is dumb. Did everyone know Arabs hate Americans because of scantily clad women on MTV?
You’re too young to remember this, but during the civil rights marches and mayhem here, old white farts used to intone that the only reason why blacks were rioting was because it’s hot, and they didn’t have Cadillacs. I was a kid then but my mother used to run through the house holding her head and screaming, “Jesus! They’re so goddam dumb!”
;-)
Speaking of delusional, those who commented on Haaretz’s Ari Shavit’s “U.S. should direct Mideast storm of change toward Iran” make it clear that they think Shavit is having serious delusions.
Such comments have to cause distress to Israel’s defenders, at home and abroad.
Read them for yourself,
link to haaretz.com
I wouldn’t worry too much about Shavit’s diatribe. The Hasbarats have been desperately trying to turn the spotlight back onto Iran since Tunisia fell. Israel came under the world’s glare as Egypt was Mubarak was being toppled and they found themselves standing alone, shoulder to shoulder with Saudi Arabia in support of Mubarak.
Nor a good look.
The poor Israelis are in a lather. A d
few months ago, they were licking their lips at the prospect of Hezbollah being cornered by the release of the tribunal indictments, and seemingly overnight, Hezbollah outsmarted everyone as in power, the Tribunal is toast, Egypt has fallen along with Israel’s plans to attack Iran, Iranian war ships are sailing through the Suez, Meir Dagan gas dispelled the lie that Iran is making nukes, and every member of the UNSC has declared the settlements illegal.
The day of reckoning is fast approaching and the panic is setting in.
Like the US could effectively do anything now.
The castle walls are crumbling all around them. What happens when they are in crisis, they attack the neighbors and all sing together in praise of the IDF. But they cant, as you say – they’re cornered.
I agree mostly but not with But they cant, as you say – they’re cornered.
That is when they will be most dangerous. Think about it. In a few years, more and more Ashkenazie Jews decide to exercise their rights afforded them by their second passports. The demographic nightmare — Arabs become the majority. The anti-apartheid movement and BDS finally kicks in with the EU, all of the third world and increasingly Asia refuses to trade. The country is now run by the remaining fanatics and fundamentalists that make up the current ultra-right. They are armed with something like 400 nuclear weapons. And cornered like a rat.
I really do not see much good coming out of this.
“The country is now run by the remaining fanatics and fundamentalists that make up the current ultra-right. They are armed with something like 400 nuclear weapons. And cornered like a rat.”
Masadadammerung!
Except the History Chanel recently showed Massada is a myth.
Can’t win around here. I just like the juxtaposition.
Toivo,
the scenario of sensible Israelis leaving the country and the remaining zealots going for the Samson option could drive me from the 9/11 truth-websites to the Mayan calender predictions ;). Is that what you want?
Yes, Dayan, Israeli military historian van Creveld and members of US military have made this hyper- ‘mad dog’ point repeatedly, i.e. that Israel will not be ‘wiped off the map’ without taking the rest of world with them. Not just the region and Arabs. Seham says this fear-mongering no longer impresses Arabs, and maybe has a point worth considering in either direction. Just watched Iranium and the same point is made about the danger of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of Iran and other Islamists: Armageddon being not something that scares them, but part of their belief of things to come, according to prophesy. Same can be said for Christian fundamentalists and Zionists.
Maybe something could be learned from WW 2 in this regard. Did the demonization of Nazi Germany and Germans as foaming-at-the-mouth lunatics (all the sensible Germans had apparently emigrated or killed in concentration camps) with whom negotiation was futile do anything else but escalate the disaster and prolong the war? Was unconditional surrender, next to horrifying proposals for what peace would look like for the Germans, a sound and fair requirement? Was it necessary to drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
“Can’t win around here. I just like the juxtaposition.”
It was a good one, mooser. And citizen, myth or not, Jewish Virtual Library says:
Masada today is one of the Jewish people’s greatest symbols. Israeli soldiers take an oath there: “Masada shall not fall again.”
Just a couple of days ago BYahoo turned down another peace offer from Syria, brokered by Sen Kerry. They’re looking at more satellite images of “nuclear installations” in Syria. This may be the moment they go one step too far.
Never mind that it wasn’t in the mainstream news at all. “John Kerry? Isn’t he that guy who lied about his service in Vietnam?”
Funny way to go about “Support the Troops,” incidentally, isn’t it? I wonder how many soon to be vets are wise to the way they’re going to be forgotten and abused once their usefulness in the war is over.
Sometimes what we’ve turned America into makes me sick.
The most significant demographic pool of US grunts will keep supplying “our troops.” However, this pool has narrowed over the years because of the nature of the flow of immigrants here; it becomes smaller along with the demographic immigration trends in the USA. As well, the class war being revealed more and more by our country’s budget growing like Topsy to keey the US oliarchy’s agenda afloat will add to the increase in the old reliable segment of our population willing to volunteer. The male Draft registration forms at the local post offices throughout the country look pretty dusty these days.
I’ll go the whole hog and advise every peace and justice loving israeli to pack and leave occuupied historic Palestine – unless of course they don’t mind living in Historic Arab Palestine.
Palestinians will be getting back their whole country whether eee approves or not.
And all the region supports them in this, not forgetting of course, the rest of the world.
naah. they aren’t packing up Israel and calling the whole thing off at all.
that’s just a backseat fantasy, Taxi.
You’re in the US. You’re going to play armchair general for Zionist Jews stranded in Israel? Heh.
Actually, what I expect you’re counting on, fuster, is that Israel is maniacal enough to use the Samson Option. Isn’t that right?
Oh I wouldn’t call it a fantasy fusty: I clearly remember hizbollah, all by itself, emptied out the WHOLE of northern israel during 2006 war.
Now imagine if 80 million of their Egyptian friends decided to join them.
Yes fusty: WAKE THE F UP!!! The people of the region have spoken and they mean BUSINESS!!
Taxi, you can call it whatever suits ya.
right now, the speech is just speech.
Nasser used to give really good speeches about how the United Arab Republic was going to swat down the Zionists.
soon enough, there was no United Arab Republic and no Nasser.
let’s hope that they mean to run their own countries better than they’ve been run and that they can take care of their own business.
after that, they’ll be in position to force the Israelis to act decently
fusty,
TWO dictators were dislodged inside a month and the third is on his way out – while the rest of the Arab multitude watches, learns, organizes for a push to rid their lives of their despots and oppressors.
What’s your side been up to in the meantime? Whistling in the wind and pretending that NOTHING’s going on – just business as usual huh.
It don’t matter if you’ve got bigger guns – they’re not afraid anymore and their smaller guns kill too.
Not sure about that fuster; the Egyptians so recently free in the square were recently chanting, in effect, “Next year in Jerusalem.”
I don’t think their continued suppression by what’s left of the PTB
will take forever to shake off any more than the Hebrews ever let go of that dream.
as I said, it very early in the game, and it’s very good that 2 are down and there are only 17 yet to go.
may they have much success in the coming decades that it’ll take to get rid of the present Arab regimes and replace those present governments with decent ones.
if they’re able to do that, they’ll be in position to accomplish a great deal.
I agree with you that Netanyahu is delusional in ways, and that its harmed Israel’s relationship in the world.
Your glee at Israel being surrounded is problematic, and will result in an overreaction. While you may claim that EEE is urging a military approach, I think his observations of likely outcomes are more realistic.
Israel will not sit while civilians are being shelled. Although there certainly is substantiation to the assertion that Israel desired to fight Hamas, it is also a truth that Hamas gave them that opportunity, to such a degree that it appeared to me that Hamas desired that Israel invade (spokesmen even said so immediately after the end of the cease fire).
Even Gideon Levy described the Hamas shelling after the cease fire as idiotically playing into the Israeli right’s hands.
That they stopped their shelling voluntarily suggests to me that it was ALWAYS in their interests to restrain their shelling, but emotion just got the better of them (or their younger cadre).
“We’ve got them on the run. They are surrounded.” Gleeful.
How can Jews confidently live in a “democratic single state” with those that hold such views? (I get that the oppossite is also true.)
Oh, yes, Witty. I’m sure Seham is gleeful at the prospect of fundamentalists like your son, charging into Gaza (again) or Lebanon (again) or the Sinai (again) and taking aim at anything with dark skin or an Arab accent. I’m sure she really is looking forward to that.
Look, Witty, we already know your going to lie about Israel breaking cease fires EVERY SINGLE TIME. We know that’s what you want. We know you want war. We know you want ethnic cleansing. We know you want the security of knowing there will be a Jews-only country club on the Jordan River waiting for you the next time you go on vacation.
Do you have to keep rubbing it on our faces by slandering the Palestinians here? Your relatives already stole her land and stole her rights. Don’t be greedy and try to steal her dignity too.
Your glee at Israel being surrounded is problematic, and will result in an overreaction.
From whom? You? Or does personal “glee,” as you claim, result in some national reaction somewhere across the pond?
RW: “How can Jews confidently live in a “democratic single state” with those that hold such views? ”
This is an anti-semitic statement conflating the zionists with all Jews. So opposition to oppression is proof the oppression is justified?
Isn’t it interesting how Witty repeatedly admits that Israel is a dangerous and irrational actor?
As we saw in November, nor will it sit while civilians are NOT being shelled.
I would normally ask someone making such a claim to produce evidence, but seeing as it’s you Witty, I know how futile that is, and will dismiss it as one fo your made up facts.
The Jews of the Warsaw Ghettos played righto into the hands of the Nazis during the uprising too Witty.
Having colleagues murdered does that to people. Don’t you just love Witty’s patronizing language here? On one hand, “Israel will not sit while civilians are being shelled”, but when it comes to Hamas, they let emotion get the better of them.
How nauseating is this sick character?
Another made up quote.
Their leaders hold such views Witty, and they seem comfortable enough with that.
well, it occurs to me perhaps witty thinks rocket attacks w/no casualties are more intolerable for jews than actually killing of civilians are for palestinians.
there’s almost a willfulness about the quality of denial. like he can’t comprehend there are israeli teenagers with guns killing palestinians.
And now Witty’s struggling with young IDF guys pissing on Palestinian kids. That’s what the USA gets for protecting Witty and similar guys since his birth. And now his son is in Israel, still protected just like his father from reality creeping in, and once again–thanks to USA enablement.
Richard, I wasn’t gleeful when I wrote this post, I was feeling very matter of fact. But should Israel want to do something incredibly stupid-er and then put itself in any of the scenarios that I described above… I won’t be shedding a single tear for them.
I would shed a tear. War sucks.
It is so much better to pursue the path of acceptance, even if clearly conditional on circumstances that are possible to meet.
You didn’t cry during Operation Cast Lead. I’m guessing you didn’t cry during the invasion of Lebanon in 2006, either. (Or the simultaneous bombing of Gaza at that time as well.)
“How can Jews confidently live in a “democratic single state” with those that hold such views?”
They could start by surrendering. They could say “Sorry, we were wrong.”
About Bibi’s delusions.
Where did Bibi learn his sheltered & narrow sense of reality? He was born in 1949 in Tel Aviv to a professor Benzion Netanyahu, the middle child of three children. He was initially raised and educated in Jerusalem. 1956-1958, & 1963-67 Bibi lived with his Israeli family in the USA in Cheltenham, PA, a suburb of Philadelphia, where he graduated from the Cheltenham High School. Then moved back to Israel. In 1972 Netanyahu left the IDF with the rank of captain and returned to the USA,
studied and eventually earned a B.S. degree in architecture from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in 1975, a M.S. degree from the MIT Sloan School of Management in 1977, and studied political science at Harvard University and MIT. This is an effective breeding ground for grand delusions.
It’s going to take some time, but we will see a united Arab more or less on the issue of Palestine. Middle East will continue to surprise us in a positive way as it has now.
It’s only going to get better.
“It’s only going to get better.”
Bite your tongue/keyboard!
Touch wood!
Bow three times to the moon!
Never, never, tempt the Gods with such words.
Phil and Adam,
Gaza in Plain Language—Revisited. Honoring the March to Gaza. Now on March 4th, 2011
link to youtube.com
some relevant historical review:
HOW HEZBOLLAH DEFEATED ISRAEL
PART 1: Winning the intelligence war
PART 2: Winning the ground war
PART 3: The political war
Hip hip Hooooray to ANYONE who kicks Apartheid ass!!!
OT, but too good not to post.
link to ynetnews.com
Messiah, or just a very naughty boy?
This latest rocket attack seems just too convenient to me.
(a) The world is watching with admiration as Arabs throw off their despots. Israel wants to remind everyone that poor-little-Israel (TM) is still under threat by swarthy, smelly, unshaven, fanatical, Jew-hating Ay-rabs .
(b) Egypt looks as though it is not going to be an Israeli lackey any more, so Israel would like a good excuse to re-take the Sinai while the Egyptians are a bit preoccupied.
In other words, the rocket attack stinks of false flag.
Bingo Roha. This would be classic Israeli M.O.
yeah, that thought crosses my mind every time i hear about rockets from gaza. i figure maybe 30% originate there. the rest, israel or their agents of coming from egypt.
why wouldn’t they do it? heck, if i wanted to demonize someone and justify a blockade and future massacres it makes perfect sense. it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. there’s absolutely no reason to believe one thing the goi says. the specialize in lying and narrative.
besides the rockets rarely hurt anyone, just keep the fear level up which supports their brainwashing MO and justifies them murdering innocent palestinians. last year there was a perfect hit on some asian worker. hmm
I saw you suggested this one was a false-flag on another thread. Just thought I’d flesh it out a bit.
And add capital letters.
oh i may have. i actually make an effort not to verbalize my suspicions on public forums every time they occur to me but once and awhile it’s required. we can’t go around pretending israel’s honest when we know they aren’t. lying is one of their specialties. the cia does this shit too. we’re not all idiots.
annie, you’re about as washed out as a brain can be if you need to tell yourself that the Israelis are firing rockets at themselves.
you’re about downright hydrocephalic about it. get it drained.
i never claimed they fired rockets at themselves fuster.
Whatever you say fuster.
1. Peace summit arranged in Egypt between Sharon and Abbas.
2. On the morning of February 7, a day before the summit is to start, Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz told Israel Army Radio that he had received intelligence warnings that some militants, including Hezbollah, may try to disrupt the summit.
3. Due to the intelligence warnings, Israel Police moved to a level III heightened alert status, one level below a state-of-emergency.
4. Like clockwork, on the afternoon of February 7, rockets rained down on the northern Israeli town of Nahariya, and were immediately described by Israeli police as Katyusha rockets fired by Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon.
5. Later in the same day, the attack was described as the result of ‘human error’ involving a failed test by an Israeli weapons manufacturer in the area.
link to dailystar.com.lb
It was made clear – some might say too clear – that although the failed test took place on an IDF firing range and was by a weapons company closely associated with the IDF, the IDF had nothing to do with it.
Obviously, the IDF attempted to disrupt the summit, or even provide a reason to call it off, by faking a rocket attack by Hezbollah. It wasn’t a coincidence that the Israeli Defense Minister announced the possibility of an attack in the morning, and a faked attack occurred in the afternoon. This is the usual Israeli terrorist bullshit. On times too numerous to mention, whenever Sharon needs political cover to hide some outrage he is committing a convenient ‘Palestinian’ attack pops up to distract the press and make the poor, poor Israelis look like victims again. This time they were caught red handed, and had to come up with the laughable excuse of ‘human error’ in rocket testing (you’ve got to be kidding!). But here’s the good part, and the aspect of this whole sordid matter that inspires some optimism. They were busted, and they were busted by IDF insiders. People in the IDF was so disgusted by the trickery that they spilled the beans, resulting in the necessity of the ridiculous cover story to explain the inconvenient fact that rockets coming from an IDF firing range were landing on an Israeli town. It wouldn’t do for people to find out that crazies in the IDF were willing to murder Israelis in order to stop the peace process. The good news is that there are Israelis, including Israelis in the IDF, who wouldn’t let them get away with it. If Israel is ever to have peace, we need to see more of this whistleblowing.
what does this mean then, if not that the Israelis are firing rockets at themselves?
‘…every time i hear about rockets from gaza. i figure maybe 30% originate there. the rest, israel or their agents of coming from egypt.’
You think they wouldn’t do it? For the chance to kill another few thousand Arabs? A dead chicken is a small price to pay.
I don’t need to tell myself that, but I can’t think of any reason why Israeli’s wouldn’t.
A chance to replay the victimhood card, and all you need to do is have a little bang? Such a deal!
Taxi’s comments are usually the most prescient. And he is right again. The neighbourhood just got a lot chillier, all while many Israelis have become fat and coddled. Those that aren’t fat and coddled are religious lunatics. The fat and coddled will trickle away first. Especially at the whiff of gunpowder. Remember, in 67, you couldn’t hit a shopping mall parking lot in Tel Aviv. Now you can. The fat and coddled will scatter back to New Jersey. The lunatics will remain and end up doing something very very stupid. And that will be it. All legitimacy will be gone. Israel will have succesfully eaten its own tail.
That’s my call.
the link doesn’t really work on my machine, Shingo. it leads to a blocked-out article.
Pots, if they wanted to kill Arabs all that much, the Arab population in Israel wouldn’t be growing as much as it is.
‘themselves’ = people. about 95% of those rockets land in open fields. you do the math.
Doesn’t matter if they’re lousy in the artillery department. Each one of these rockets meets the definition of a war crime because it’s incapable of distinguishing between military objectives or personnel and civilian ones. The whole Hamas leadership needs to be arrested and tried for repeated crimes against humanity. 8,000 rockets fired blindly at Israeli civilians, that’s a lot of war crimes (which of course somehow Goldstone, the fine lawyer, missed entirely…. how odd).
no, annie. themselves mean their territory. the damned rockets can’t be aimed. where they land, nobody knows.
hydrocephalic reaction, annie.
link to youtube.com
It’s your prediction, fusty. Your dire warning. Bloodbath to come. So what happens when the bloodbath is finally over?
themselves mean their territory.
must be a cultural thing or maybe we just got different dictionaries.
iow, not to me it doesn’t.
where they land, nobody knows.
whoa, sounds truly ominous
nah Pots, I didn’t predict any bloodbath except if the Hezzies drop rockets on Tel Aviv.
for some reason it amused Shingo to offer that up, so sit his butt in the bloodbath.
If it really comes, I’ve no idea what follows. That would depend on several unpredictable (to me) things. Would it involve Iran?
Would France lead the EU to step into a role in post-war Lebanon? What would replace the Ba’ath regime in Syria?
Who the hell would pick up the pieces in Israel and would they then be forced to haul ass out of the West Bank?
iow, not to me it doesn’t.
well, there ain’t many like you, annie.
bs. and open field is not a person. obviously.
There’s nothing to be amused about fuster, but when it comes to the gutter, you remained deterined to win the race to the bottom.
The only point I made was that Israel had their asses handed to them on more than one occasion by Hezbollah. Hezbollah have never started a war, Israel has, though you remain obsessed with convincing yourself that they will start it the next time.
It’s so typical how you little Ziofascists always assume that the UN, or the Europeans or the US will have to occupy the other state. Maybe it’s time the UN went into Israel and sorted out the mess the Zionists have created.
In that case, the rockets and bombs that Israel fires that do hit civilians qualify as far more servere war crimes, especially seeing as Israel killed 100 times as many civilians.
In which case, the whole isrelis leadership needs to be arrested and tried for repeated crimes against humanity going back to 19489, when they began by cuioating the Geneva Conventions.
INcidentatlyl JJS, Israel has fired 16,000 shells into Gaza – that’s right, double the number of rockets Hamas have fired.
flustered – “annie, you’re about as washed out as a brain can be if you need to tell yourself that the Israelis are firing rockets at themselves.
you’re about downright hydrocephalic about it. get it drained.”
ahem . . . .
……an unnamed contact told a British diplomat……..
“My contact said the PFLP had attracted all sorts of wild elements, some of whom had been planted by the Israelis.”
no cigar, Hu.
That seems to go along with this earlier revelation from 2003:
Revealed: how Israel helped Amin to take power
flustered – the link doesn’t really work on my machine, Shingo. it leads to a blocked-out article.
Well let me help you out with that one, fluster . . . .
this is a link to a screencap of the page which you claim not to be able to view -
and here is the relevant content copied&pasted for your edification
no need to thank me, fuster as I’m delighted to be of assistance in providing you with proof that Israelis have been caught firing rockets at themselves
That’s your proof? Pathetic. The article YOU quote clearly says that mortar shells exploded ACCIDENTALLY, and your warped mind jumps to the conclusion that the Israelis are shooting at themselves INTENTIONALLY? You need professional help, bozo brain. But of course we already knew that.
fluster – “no cigar, Hu.”
oh you have me all wrong – you actually think I’m trying to convince you?
You think this is some sort of court of law, and you’re some stick-insect hero/ine – Aly McBeal in a mini-skirt fer instance – acting for the defense and all you have to do is cast reasonable doubt?
hahahahah
no, no, – I wouldn’t waste my time, I’m just posting this stuff to show how full of ridiculous hasbara nonsense you are – your pretense that Israel would never stoop to rocketing itself is just a good opportunity to show others what a laughable obfuscator you are – pretending you couldn’t access Shingo’s earlier link, so as to avoid acknowledging that Israel has in fact been caught rocketing itself, was just childish – see I already know that you’ll try and dismiss anything presenting Israel in a less than stellar light, when that doesn’t work you’ll try the old ‘Oh look over there at the Arabs, they suck!” gambit – and if neither of those two are appropriate you’ll just try and ignore it, like you did earlier with Shingo
anyhoo –
Unholy Alliance
the info on Israeli collusion with the PFLP came from a
So I’ll take Colvin’s word anyday before I’d take the word of any Israeli on the veracity of the claim that Israel colluded with the PFLP – and your opinions on the subject are immaterial, considering how dishonest you are, any one would be a fool to consider your thoughts on any of this to be anything other than completely worthless
jj The loon – “your warped mind “
If i were you I’d totally avoid accusing anyone else of having a warped mind, that way you’d not be drawing attention to your own pretty severe case of mind-warp, buddy –
the more hysterical your response the more likely you are to scare away the undecided, – the wheels are coming off your little hasbara-wagon, j
While we’re on the subject of Israeli lies, deception and collusion
Hamas, Son of Israel
I wonder how many words in ALL-CAPS jj-the loon will post in reply this time?
“pseudo gang”—a state sponsored group used to advance an agenda, while discrediting the real opposition. General Frank Kitson, a British officer first thought up the concept that was later used in Northern Ireland and was the basis for the formation of gang of mercenaries known as Al Qaeda, by the US and UK (and Israeli?) security services
South Africa staged violent “black-on-black” to create the impression that ANC ‘terrorists’ were responsible, and police reports always blamed the ANC. South African police ran a strategic deception unit called Stratcom . Jailed security police death-squad commander Colonel Eugene de Kock admitted that Stratcom staged clandestine attacks on white people, to provoke a right-wing backlash
The British group running these Pseudo-gangs in Northern Ireland was known as the FRU
To think that Israel does not frequently use pseudo-gangs to advance it’s racist agenda is just moronic
PDF – Low Intensity Operations: Subversion, Insurgency, Peacekeeping – Frank Kitson
White Rhodesians also used the “pseudo gang” concept to bomb churches (and murder missionaries) and blame the violence on “communist atheists” or Patriotic Front guerrillas fighting for national determination against the racist government.
Kitson (1971) argued that military forces must recognise that subversion and insurgency were now a part of ‘one total war’. Counter-insurgency theory provided a strategic framework for how a state should respond to insurgency, by treating political resistance as a military problem.
As Kevin Toolis has noted: ‘The counter-terrorist solution to revolt was always the same: military repression, assassinations, torture programmes and state-licensed killing squads’ (2004: 26).
infiltration of the local population can be achieved by covert operations, normally conducted by special forces
At the heart of this was the strategy of ‘turning.’ The method of acquiring and using agents was to spy on the guerrilla’s contacts with the people, identify who those were in touch with them, persuade a number of those to turn traitor, and so disrupt the rest of the organisation so that the guerrillas were fairly sure to go on relying on at least some of those people that would in the end betray them by giving ‘advance precise information’
==================
there’s a pretty decent article on the whole subject here – http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=2075.0
And it’s not as if any of this is unknown to the IDF – there is after all the Lavon affair where Israel was caught red-handed bombing US and British targets in Egypt in order to make discredit Nassar
Israel had been caught trying to harm American and British interests for no reason and in instigating terror attacks against innocent targets.
hubris, i recall a few years ago when the UK, under freedom of info act released their dossier containing their assessment of the Entebbe incident at the time it happened. the opinions of their ambassador in the field thru statements of israeli contact (this is working from memory here. it was published by the bbc.) national archives
more docs
this was big news when it was released stonewalled by US msm.
don’t forget gladio
47:18 – 2 years ago
Extraordinary BBC documentary by Alan Francovich from 1992. Documents the existence of a covert terrorist network maintained throughout Europe by NATO, intended to discredit the political left. (Part 1: 47 min.)
JJS,
You never give up an opportunity to soil yourself in public do you? The claim of an accident came from the IDF after they were caughtin the act.
So why did Israeli police describe the incident as Katyusha rockets fired by Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon?
Who’s we JJS? The voices in yout head don’t count BTW.
don’t forget gladio
oh I haven’t forgotten – I was just saving that one for later when jjTheLoon and fuster the flustered, come back to droll all over this thread.
IF they come back that is.
Fuster at least might try to brazen it out – though he will as usual just try to whittle away at some utterly inconsequential point and do his best to ignore the main points – that seems to be his M.O. :)
Gladio – The CIA and the British secret service MI6, in collaboration with the military alliance NATO and European military secret services set up a network of clandestine anticommunist armies in Western Europe after World War II. The secret soldiers were trained on remote islands in the Mediterranean and in unorthodox warfare centers in England and in the United States by the Green Berets and SAS Special Forces.
The network was armed with explosives, machine guns and high-tech communication equipment hidden in underground bunkers and secret arms caches in forests and mountain meadows. In some countries, the secret army linked up with right-wing terrorists who in a secret war engaged in political manipulation, harassment of left wing parties, massacres, coup d’etats and torture.
Codenamed “Gladio” (‘the sword’), the Italian secret army was exposed in 1990 by Italian Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti to the Italian Senate, whereupon the press spoke of the “the best kept, and most damaging, political-military secret since World War II” (Observer, 18. November 1990) and observed that “The story seems straight from the pages of a political thriller.” (The Times, November 19, 1990). Ever since, so-called ‘stay-behind’ armies of NATO have also been discovered in France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, Austria, Greece and Turkey. They were internationally coordinated by the Pentagon and NATO and had their last known meeting in the NATO-linked Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC) in Brussels in October 1990.
NATO’s Secret Armies
By Daniel ganser
File name: Ganser.zip – File size: 2.79 MB
looks like Fuster the flustered has decided to run from this one – the Aly McBeal impersonation was looking fairly weak anyway – jjTheLoon seems to be drooling elsewhere too
If I thought you guys needed any help to slice, dice, and then brush away the remaining crumbs of the Ziocaine addled trolls, I would give the link to this classic article:
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
But you don’t, not by a long shot. My, it did my heart good to see Witty handled that way.
Funny, isn’t it, how every Zionist who doesn’t actually go live in Israel is so convinced that any Israeli who does have an out will instead stay there to fight and die for their ego.
Ah, but that’s Zionism; doesn’t matter how many Jews die, as long as the Jewish State lives and prevails.
At one point the Nazi state had a military force that was invincible. Imperial Japan did pretty good for awhile too. The less ethnocentric USSR lasted until when, 1991?
once that last humpty-dumpty takes his big fall
fear having been vanquished
not only in palestine
everywhere else as well
the future racing towards us
the sound of chains being broken
a world that’s just and free
sometimes we feel that it’ll all be
A world become one
Of salads and sun
link to youtube.com
Thank you Seham. No one should doubt Israel would be bringing much worse violence on Palestinians demonstrating for self-determination than Qadhafi does on Libyans. What have been extraordinary assaults on Tunisians, Egyptians, and Libyans are everyday experiences for Palestinians. Americans should realize they are the power that allows its continuation.
Seham, I don’t see Egypt or Turkey in a military confrontation with Israel. That wouldn’t end well for anyone. However, I could see the Turkish and new Egyptian governments giving BDS a huge boost by nullifying Israeli trade agreements, business dealings and tourist/travel visas. These moves would isolate Israel in real ways, they would have popular support throughout the region, and they would send a strong message to the ‘Quartet’ that regional actors are issuing their own digestive on the constipated ‘peace process’.
Dbroncos,
However, I could see the Turkish and new Egyptian governments giving BDS a huge boost by nullifying Israeli trade agreements, business dealings and tourist/travel visas.
Bingo.
And Germany, Turkey’s biggest trading partner, would say HOO-rah. And Bibi knows that…but I think he’s cooked his goose because of the US UN vote. I think this bird’s been fried. Just a sense.
A little while ago, I suggested that Ghadaffi would be feeling the heat next.
In the light of this amazing
flukedemonstration of my prognosticatory powers, I will make few more predictions.1. Yemen – protests become a civil war between North Yemen and Aden.
2. Jordan – very fancy footwork by the king brings in a Westminster style Parliament and an ostensibly limited monarchy.
3. Saudi Arabia – fed up B-team princes in the military lead a popular revolution and accidently end up with a republic. Teenage girls in hotpants dance in the streets of Jeddah.
4. Algeria – Complicated backstage deals with the opposition parties lead to honestish (at least Diebold-free) elections. Government members quietly retire abroad.
Give me a cheer for each one I get right, and a raspberry for each one I get wrong.
Send money in either case. I don’t do this for nothing.
Teenage girls in hotpants dance in the streets of Jeddah.
!!!!!!!!!!
go RoHa, for your awesome predictions you win 2 capital letters!
What about Bahrain, RoHa?
I looked for Bahrain in my crystal ball, but the mists rose up. I did hear the word “toast”, though.
I believe your every word RoHa.
me too.
Teenage girls in hotpants dance in the streets of Jeddah.
Hell. They wear them in the palaces, and under those black robes. I know because I was in foist (thank you to Mooser) class flying to London and all the black robed ladies came out of the john with skirts the length of belts, smelling like heaven, and looking smokin’.
oh heavens when i was in cairo and (tiny) al arish the lingerie shops in full window display were wild! some serious style going on there.
I saw a documentary about the Egyptian lingerie. Could make Amsterdam blush.
And the visiting Arab girls in Marbella are beauty queens.
@eee You state “The tactic is as old as it is despicable. The mark of a barbaric populace. Children should not ever be allowed to join demonstrations where they can be hurt”.
Since September 29, 2000 to January 31, 2011, 1,318 Palestinian children have been killed by the state of Israel at the hands of the IDF, attired stylishly in their favourite t-shirts which depicts a pregnant Palestinian woman centered in crosshairs with the slogan “one shot, two kills”.
This, in itself, is despicable.
BTW, Bravo Seham. What a passionate, well written piece!
If you believe that kind of monstrous, libelous lie, it is proof that your damaged head is beyond repair (probably some serious leak of gray matter). It’s funny how so many extremely lazy individuals will repeat like brainless parrots the most outrageous (but catchy) slogans, even if they are totally absurd. Profound stupidity reigns supreme in some quarters. Checking facts? No way. Making sure I’m not being lied to (and manipulated)? what for? I like behaving like a retard. I have to admit that in so doing you are right about one thing: you don’t need to think for yourself. Too much work…
Do you have any facts to share with us jjs, seeing as you’re a trainer and educator of matters relating to the Middle East? So far, your only expertise appears to be trash talk, Hasbara and empty rhetoric.
trainer and educator of matters relating to the Middle East
HAHAHAHAH for real?
is the id d’jour for our new hasbarists?
That’s about the only thing in your post that was truthful.
For your reference. Second table, first column, total Palestine and Israel together.
Or was it the T-shirts you were refering to? Well then.
Any minute now jjs will be telling us that Bt Selem is a let wing conspiracy to delegitimize Israel.
Where is this a libelous lie? Ante up some proof refuting it. Considering everything that I post is based upon Israeli history written by Israelis, statements made by Israeli leaders, I guess the only people I am parroting is them.
You do very well at acting mentally deficient, I am sure you don’t even have to practice. Your complete disregard for the historical record doesn’t make me lazy, it makes you. Your viewpoint comes directly from reading hasbara websites or blogs. Have you ever actually done any research, read a book written by a credible historian? Don’t think so. You are the epitome of a “sheeple”.
post a link to the source of that 1,318 children number, if you have one, please.
Are you denying that Israel killed 330 children in Gaza during Cast Lead fuster?
Here for the record is a comprehensive list, in English, of every Palestinian in Gaza killed in Cast Lead and their ages.
Just to add to the general discussion.
go look on the latest children’s threads fuster. you’ve been here over the last week. do your own homework. it’s not a 20000 figure like yours (that you couldn’t support)
Happily, oh Nakba denier.
link to btselem.org
Second table, first row, and total up both occupied Palestine and Israel.
I assume no one minds that I fielded this one. It took like two minutes to find the answer — not hard, considering I used the first reputable source that came to mind. I should note this is conservative, I’ve seen higher estimates (about a hundred higher from at least one other source, link to rememberthesechildren.org
with special thanks to link to ifamericansknew.org
for pointing there.)
yeah, he was on the thread when we linked to it last week chaos. but thank you very much.
B’T Selem Statistics.
Also, I did cross reference B’Tselem’s stats against other reports in order to ensure its veracity. If you wish, I can also provide you with the names of each and every Palestinian child killed and every Israeli child killed in that time period, along with the nature of each death.
Mmayer,
@eee You state “The tactic is as old as it is despicable. The mark of a barbaric populace. Children should not ever be allowed to join demonstrations where they can be hurt”.
This is jjs’ argument as well. Must be the MIF’s latest talking points for their new recruits.
As for jjs’ lame, dumb, boring yawn refuting it, I guess he (or she) can’t handle researching NYT archives. But www.ifamericansknew.com has the figures this schmuck is screaming for. I just don’t feel like giving them to him. We covered it, what four years ago here? With updates since.
Must be the MIF’s latest talking points for their new recruits.
they recycle this stuff. my guess is we got their attention w/the children’s posts.
thanks to adam and joseph dana, seham today, the awesome aya kaniuk and tamar goldschmid and more, all the palestinian activists and families..this story will get out internationally and if you’re listening out there, lay off the kids cuz we are watching you.
f’ing sadists
Thanks for the capitals, annie.
Many years ago, in a time so distant that it seems almost fabulous now, I lived and worked in Jeddah. I also helped with the amateur theatricals there. Some of the performances took place in the British Embassy grounds (where we had built our own open-air theatre*) and others in the hall of the American School. Lots of Saudis came to see these shows.
At a performance in the school, I was handing out programmes, when a Saudi man (dressed tradtionally) came in with two black bags. Once inside, they felt they no longer needed to conform to Saudi mores, and removed the bags. Two girls, about 19 or 20 years old. Lovely faces. Long, lustrous hair. Slim. One girl was dressed in a white silk shirt and black satin trousers that seemed to have been painted on. The other wore tight jeans and a black lurex boob-tube that was well supported by her natural resources.
And the programmes went all mushy in my hands.
(Actually, just remembering them makes me a bit short of breath.)
(*Particularly for Shakespeare. Saudis appreciate him even if they can barely grasp three words in ten. Elizabethan society and values are closer to those of the Saudis than they are to ours.)
i’ve heard lots of wild stories about SA that match your description RoHa.
one of my blogging friends in iraq was desperately trying to get out of iraq and went for some interviews in SA. they led her on. the only thing available wasn’t anywhere near engineering. she preferred to weather iraq.
girls in bags. hmm. amazing story, you were there huh? wow, speaking of which we have not heard from occupyresist lately.
I must have missed this from above “At any rate, even if it existed, you’re not going back to “Palestine” because it never existed in the first place and you lost the war you started. ”
Who started the war?? I am assuming you are referring to the 6 day, 1967 war. HELLLOOOOO????
Ze’ev Maoz (pretty credible Israeli political scientist/historian) on Israel’s Israel’s Record on War
“Israel’s war experience is a story of folly, recklessness and self-made traps. Non</b? of Israel's war with the possible exception of the 1948 War of independence was what Israel refers to as a war of necessity. They were all wars of choice or folly."
Israel’s Record of Peace
“Israel’s decision makers were as reluctant when it came to making peace as they were daring and trigger happy when it making war. The official Israeli decision makers typically did not initiate peace overtures. Most of the peace initiatives in the Arab/Israeli conflict came either from the Arab word, from the international community or from grass roots or informal channel.”
Netanyahu as Delusional as Lybia’s leader leads me into African NATO being probably ready to go into Lybia and manage the uprising to a bloody standstill. Netanyahu’s seeming delusional actions are necessary to keep the Middle East inflamed forever, for, that is how long the U.S. war machine plans to control Middle Eastern resources. Freedom from oppression? They have not experienced anything yet. In case no-one noticed, the E.U. has been losing the abilities to enforce any human rights on a weekly basis. A world disaster always throws sand in everyone’s eyes so that each time it is cleared away, the E.U. status seems changed but dimly noticed rather than the shock of recognition that accompanied the Sarkosy ethnic cleasing of France’s own Roma. The E.U. Commision laid that rage to rest with soothing phrases, empire relaxing with a pleased sigh. Now Euronews plays and replays the map of the NATO oil piplines that cover Western Europe, a containing spider web of U.S. empire control.
Shingo, that yutz above posted a number of 1,318 children killed by the IDF.
don’t give me any your shit about what I’m denying , I’m asking to see where that number comes from, nothing else.
You expect us to believe that BS? If you wanted to very it, you only had to Google it. You’ve done a lot of digging like crazy for an the dirt you could find on Iran, so clearly you know how to.
That’s exactly what fuster has told us to do whenever he’s quoted statistics at us.
So that makes fuster something of a blatant hypocrite.
>> … 1,318 children killed by the IDF. … I’m asking to see where that number comes from, nothing else.
mmayer should have posted a link. fuster could have found the info. quite easily. Regardless, here it is.
Link to B’Tselem report in JPost.com article
>> Since September 29th, 2000, 6,371 Palestinians have been killed and 1,083 Israelis according to a report by B’Tselem on the casualties of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict released on Monday.
>> According to the report, 1,317 of the 6,371 Palestinians were minors …
(The only reference I could find to the exact number 1,318 is the # of Palestinians killed between Dec./87 and Dec./97: Link to BTselem PDF)
I just posted a link to the complete list above. FYI.
thank you, eljay. the number from them was for under 18 years of age , not children, but it’s close enough for me.
It’s astonishing how many people here cite away sources that are notoriously unreliable or known to lie shamelessly. B’Tselem is one of those. See here: link to ngo-monitor.org
, where it says among many other morsels of educational information that “B’Tselem has faced serious criticism for its misrepresentations of international law, inaccurate research, and skewed statistics (including casualty lists). Relies on statistics and reports of other NGOs, despite the political agendas and credibility problems of these other groups.” No wonder I have stopped long ago paying attention to whatever this group says given their politically motivated slant, which in their minds justifies their misrepresenting the facts because it always ends up making Israel the culprit, even when it is clear (as is almost always the case) that the Palestinians are the troublemakers. There is a whole bunch of left-wing groups like that that are not worth anything in terms of providing reliable information. In case of doubt, I recommend everybody always check www.ngo-monitor.org . Pretty amazing stuff there.
it occurs to me maybe you’ld be more comfortable @ an im tirtzu site. we actually like B’Tselem around here. have you read Israeli McCarthyism? what about Israel’s Wikipedia war?
smelling salts people! i think we’ve got a hasbarista hack/drama queen in our ranks, could be an emergency situation!!!
Thanks for the comic relief JJS. NGO monitor is a right wing propaganda organization with even less credibility than CAMERA.
Criticims from whom?
How does this prove that the statistics are flawed? This is a pathic argument that doesn’t even attempt to demonstrate how the statistics are flawed, but merely atteacks NGO’s for compiling them.
It’s cler that you stopped paying attention because you couldn’t stomach the facts.
What’s amazing is that you haven’t citied a single piece of evidence or fact to make your argument, relying entirely on ad hominems and slander, and then expecting to convince anyone of your argument.
In case it hasn;t occured to you, this is not some Ziosupremacist righ wing echo chamber that you’re accustomes to participating in.
Sure. Anything that doesn’t jive with your pre-conceived notion (that Palestinians=good, innocent, nice people who have done no harm to anybody, had a wonderful functional country that was taken away from them by the bad, mean, evil, ugly Israeli invaders who have no claim to the same piece of real estate) is Hasbara, “Ziosupremacist”, right-wing, or whatever else. Typical islamo-lefto-fascism: the best way to shut up people who have different views than yours is to slap labels on their foreheads, and bang, presto, voilà, see? Look at the labels I just put on their heads, dude! These people are eeee-vil. There’s the proof.
With such infantile processes at work here, I don’t see that much of a sensible discussion can take place. If I was one of the moderator, there are 3 or 4 loudmouths in this dungeon that I would instantaneously ban for life. How would you like that for a dialogue, Shindango, my brotha? I’ll leave you now to your little games in your little pen. I do have much better and far more important things to do than waste more times with a bunch of primates. It’s been fun for a short while, but recess is over. G’day, mate.
bye, i think you’ve made the right decision jj. this is probably not the right place for you.
Oh I’m sorry. Did I mistkae you with the person that stated in their last post that “Palestinians are the troublemakers”?
Pretty amazing indeed. Pretty amazing that anyone with the ability to think for themselves wouldn’t see this as a pathetic and partisan attack site with the clear agenda to serve as an Israeli PR tool – and a bad one at that.
You’re an Ozzie? Christ. I knew there were some dumb asses in the US, but I though this place was safe from wingnuts.
On the other hand, no self respecting Ozzie uses G’day to say farewell, so hopefully you’re just a traler park dumb ass that has picked up the term without knowing it’s context.
Anyway, good luck with your trainign and education programs in the Middle East. You’ll certainly be neeeding it.
This is where I got the figure of 1,318 Palestinian children’s death at the hands of the IDF:
Fatalities until operation Cast Lead
Palestinain minors killed by Israel Security Forces
September 29, 2000 – December 26, 2008.
Gaza – 634
West Bank – 317
Israel – 3
Total – 954
Fatalities during operation Cast Lead
Palestinain minors killed by Israel Security Forces
December 27, 2008 – January 18, 2009
Gaza Strip – 344
West Bank – 1
Israel – 0
Total – 345
Fatalities since operation Cast Lead
Palestinain minors killed by Israel Security Forces
January 1 2009 – January 31, 2011
Gaza Strip – 12
West Bank – 7
Israel – 0
Total – 19
Add them all up, you get 1,318 Palestinian minors killed from September 29, 2000 through January 31, 2011
How many times has it been demanded for you to supply links to the made-up crap, and your response is, “um…. er…. GOOGLE IT! Are you stooopid?”
I didn’t even have to Google it. I had a pretty good idea where to go first — a human rights NGO, and an Israeli one to boot (because anything else and you’d tar it as having an “anti-Semitic” agenda).
and that’s because when I do supply links, most of the time they get buried in moderation.
today I wrote something and the author of the post, calls herself, Kate called me delusional.
I sent her a link to back up my claim and it sat in moderation for about 5 hrs while other comments written after mine appeared on screen.
msm links or some cheesy memri type stuff?
annie, one of the links is about as cheesy as memri, it’s from ma’an.
the others are more reliable.
somehow i find the notion you linked to ma’an and it was banned… far fetched. anyone can claim the mods ate their argument, doesn’t make it true. it appears to me you have more comments on this blog than practically all the other posters. does it ever occur to you maybe you’re just being put on a diet? or is there some compelling reason your voice should be heard here twice as much as most posters?
quit complaining, it’s not like anyone is silencing you. every time i open a thread your little frog avatar is all over the place.
and right cute it is, it is.
didn’t say banned, annie. Kate was wrong as the links showed, so they just didn’t appear until 5 long hours afterward.
it’s just sorta …. like that.
doubt that Kate is going to get around to mentioning that she was wrong and that I wasn’t just making the crap up.
poor you. i have no idea. i know sometimes people go out to dinner on a friday night and no comments pass for hrs. at least that’s how it appears to me on occasion. it also might be the case of a moderator choosing to let other voices be heard before reading thru all yours in a timely fashion. you comment a lot. think about it.
.
• “I feel sorry for you and Jews like you, a bunch of self-hating Jews … history is replete with people like you”! [Malka Bando]
• “Only Jews suffer from the disease of self-hate which turns them into like lemmings running off the cliff. Problem for Deborah Stone and her ilk is that the non-diseased Jews who are not suicidal are not going to follow the lemmings. Too much blood, sweat, and tears went into building this beautiful post-Holocaust community of proud Jews and they are not going to sit idly by an watch the likes of the self haters of the ADC destroy it” [Shoshanna Silcove].
• “All those who are in sync with [her] perverted view are Jewish in blood only, who despite their past victimization have chosen to join their oppressors, and have in fact themselves turned into self hating anti-Semites. Thanks God they are in the minority in this town”! [Newsmaker]
• “There are enough proud healthy minded Jews that are not self hating in this community who will fight tooth and nail against it. Jewish blood is not cheap! No mosques in the Jewish community, not now or ever! Am Yisroel Chai”! [Newsmaker]
• “I read the first few comments and I see the term ‘self hating Jew’ thrown around a lot. I’m not quite sure what it means. It would seem to be used to describe someone who would want to treat others like they themselves want to be treated. Is this correct? [Adam Kronogld]
• “Self hating Jew definition = a Jew who bends over backwards to accommodate the exclusive interests of a non Jewish society/ies at the expense of the rights and safety of other Jews within the greater or wider community to curry favour with those who have the destruction of the Jewish community or members of the Jewish community as their agenda and for no real purpose except to appear ‘liberal’ or ‘appeasing’ in the eyes of the media”! [Ilana Leeds]
• “Thanks for your definition of ‘self hating Jew’”! [Sam]
• “Ilana, I too am a convert – that is, I made the choice to be a yid and I did the hard work. What I want to know is, at what point did you realize that in order to prove that you are loyal to no other, to prove yourself more Jewish than the Jews, that the the best way to do this was to get out there and bash other Jews for not being Jewish enough”?
“At what point did you learn to throw around the worst-of-the-worst epithets to be thrown at a Jew (self-hating) to elevate your own self esteem? And why, of all the thousands of years of Jewish History to be interested in, do you insist on acquiring an almost specifically holocaust-anti-semetism identity (at least in so far as your online identity goes)”?
“I have read what you have to say on Galus for some time now and your smug attitude (‘muslims are impure’, ‘Swipe finger in the air and one for Ilana’! … and ‘I’m an English Teacher, respect my authority’) got me this time”! [cons-vert]
• “Cons-vert, I doubt that you are a real convert and your post is quite irrelevant to the topic. I will not dignify it with a response here. I would make a complaint but I am quite aware that the moderators here are not about to defend me or take seriously any complaint of mine in their strangely rather biased fashion so I will post my response on FaceBook and your post which I feel is actually quite disgusting and inciting others to have a go at me for something I have never even remotely implied” [Ilana Leeds].
.
• “In a strange way, I am ‘pleased’ that racists and peddlers of paranoia in the Jewish community have outed themselves. But my fear is that they reflect a larger proportion of the population than we care to guess”! [Larry Stillman]