Terrible news. Hamas authorities have found the body of activist Vittorio Arrigoni, 36, inside a house in the Gaza Strip, the BBC is reporting. The International Solidarity Movement member was abducted early on Thursday. BBC:
Hamas police reportedly found his dead body inside a house.
Vittorio Arrigoni was seized by a radical Islamic group on Thursday morning and video of him blindfolded with tape was later posted on YouTube.
Arrigoni had been in Gaza throughout the onslaught of Cast Lead, two years ago. He also worked as a freelance journalist. We were honored to run his work. Haaretz says:
The body... was discovered in the home of a member of the extreme Islamist group that claimed responsibility for the abduction. Four suspects have already been arrested.
Hamas authorities claim to be taking measures to locate additional suspects involved in the alleged abduction and subsequent murder.
Italian consular officials said that Arrigoni was taken on Thursday morning.
Max Ajl has the video here. The Gaza-based blog Revealing Gaza adds:
Salafi Jehadis claimed the responsibility of kidnapping and abducting him asking Hamas government in Gaza to release Abu Al Waleed Al Maqdisi in 30 hours starting from 11 am today 14\4\2011 or else they would kill him.
Earlier today the BBC reported:
Mr Arrigoni is the first foreigner kidnapped in Gaza since BBC journalist Alan Johnston was snatched in 2007.
The BBC's Gaza correspondent Jon Donnison says the group that is thought to have taken Mr Arrigoni is part of a movement sometimes called Salafism.
Salafists have often been in conflict with Hamas, the Islamist movement that governs Gaza, and they consider Hamas too moderate, says our correspondent.
In the video, the kidnappers demand that Hamas release a number of Salafist prisoners.
In a more recent post the blog author Omar Ghraieb adds:
Ansar Al Sunah "Salafi" Group in Gaza, declared their responsibility of Vittorio's abduction and said they will release a press release soon. According to PalToday Magazine.Join Vittorio's support group on Facebook: link to on.fb.meSign this petition asking for his immediate release and share it : link to goo.glGazans will move to Al Jundi Sq. tomorrow at 4 pm in Gaza to protest and ask for his immediate release, join the facebook event: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/event.php?eid=218681814813064
Despite the grim news, our prayers are with Vittorio and we will pass along updates and things you can do to help as we receive them.
Earlier today, The International Solidarity Movement issued this press release:
INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY MOVEMENT
FREE GAZA MOVEMENT
link to palsolidarity.org
For Immediate Release
[April 14, 2001] Today, our friend and colleague, Vittorio Arrigoni, a journalist and human rights defender working in the Gaza Strip, was kidnapped by Salafists, members of a very small extremist group in Gaza.
Vittorio has been active in the Palestine cause for almost 10 years. For the past two and a half years, he has been in Gaza with the International Solidarity Movement, monitoring human rights violations by Israel, supporting the Palestinian popular resistance against the Israeli occupation and disseminating information about the situation in Gaza to his home country of Italy. He was aboard the siege-breaking voyage in 2008 with the Free Gaza Movement and was incarcerated in Israeli prisons several times. He was in Gaza throughout Israel’s brutal assault (Operation Cast Lead), assisting medics and reporting to the world what Israel was doing to the Palestinian people. He has been arrested numerous times by Israeli forces for his participation in Palestinian non-violent resistance in the West Bank and Gaza. His last arrest and deportation from the area was a result of the Israeli confiscation of Palestinian fishing vessels in Gazan territorial waters.
Vittorio frequently writes on the issue of Palestine for the Italian newspaper, IL Manifesto and Peacereporter. Additionally, he maintains a popular blog (http://guerrillaradio.iobloggo.com) and facebook page (link to www.facebook.com
Khalil Shaheen, a friend of Vittorio and Head of the Economic and Social Rights Department at the Palestinian Center for Human Rights said, "This is outside of our traditions. We are calling for the immediate release of my best friend. Vittorio Arrigoni is a hero of Palestine. He was available everywhere to support all the poor people, the victims. I'm calling on the local authorities here in Gaza, and all security departments, to do their best to guarantee his safety and immediate release."
Vittorio was granted honorary citizenship for his work on promoting the cause of the Palestinian people. Members of Gazan civil society are demanding his release; tomorrow at 4:00pm there will be a mass demonstration in Jundi Square.
this is horrible. thanks for the swift report guys.
Horrible it is indeed. But perspective, perspective.
The Salafists (first I’ve heard of them, but who am I?) are retail kidnappers. Israel kidnaps wholesale. Keep a comparative eye open, always. In a way, the siege of Gaza is a kidnapping (or cruel detention) of 1.5M people.
What does Israel have to do with this kidnapping? Why even bring it up?
It’s like if I went to Chipotle, got a burrito that didn’t taste good and said “well, this burrito is bad…but Israel is worse”.
Can’t you just condemn the animals that kidnapped this activist?
As stupid as Sky’s example is, he does have a point. It is actually perfectly plausible that the Salafists are solely responsible for this crime, and it makes sense that they would capture a foreign national to make international news and to use as a hostage against Hamas. They are threatening to make it unsafe for Palestinians to have successful international relations,
Of course, one thing the Israel Lobby likes to gloss over is that Hamas has actually been a potent ally for all of us in preventing the spread of al-Qaeda and like-minded groups into the Occupied Territories. This is blowback for Hamas for opposing actual international terrorists.
Can’t I just condemn the animals who did this kidnapping? Western Sky, you have a point. But, here, the kidnapping is not entirely free of the occupation: the victim was present (as an ISM) because of the occupation. He was not a random tourist, or burrito. And I’m not defending the kidnappers. But when Israel does something dreadful and gets called up on it (say, by Goldstone), do they not say, roughly, “Oh, quit picking on Israel, there are other countries worse”? So you might say I’m playing the Israel-card here.
But I apologize. Strictly, this is not one of Israel’s crimes. But please let us hear less of the “there are worse human-rights-violators than Israel”. If possible.
Ack, I apologize, pabelmont. I totally missed that Sky had straw manned what you said — you weren’t suggesting that Israel had anything to do with this man’s kidnapping.
The first question by an intelligence analyst: who benefits with this terrible deed?
The Hamas? Certainly not, although they have nothing to do with it, they have a very bad
The Salafists? Possibly, however, why kill a reporter who is helping the palestinian cause? They could find other targets, more friendly to Israel, (somehow Abbas comes to my memory).
Israel? They are the only ones who greatly benefit from such a dirty deal, it shown how savage the arabs are, and the Mossad did even bloodier attacks in the past. Remember 1953 Egypt. They could have masterminded the act, carried out by a few brainless idiots.
I totally agree with you Theo … The only “reason” it would “make a sense” is to deter anybody from joining the ISM or going to Gaza say in a flotilla for instance …
My thoughts and prayers to Vittorio and his family and friends.
Don’t take the Salafists too lightly, these guys are the real bad news of terrorism having cut their teeth on the Soviets in Afghanistan and they are funded by the state from where they originated. They are all over the Middle East stirring shit everywhere to cause civil wars, especialy in Iraq. 4 years back, they did a number at Nahr el Bared that cost the lives of 150 Lebanese soldiers. There’s a good chance they are behind the current unrest in Syria. Now they are in Gaza and I wouldn’t put it past them to light it up between Hamas and Israel. I hope Hamas gives them their guy back to have Vittorio freed.
they did a number at Nahr el Bared that cost the lives of 150 Lebanese soldiers.
seymore hersh whrote about that, claimed they were funded by the saudis and cia. yep. not much different than the saudis and cia funding AQ thru the isi back in the day. big time problems (referenced in my embedded link here) require big time solutions.
Its a dilemma though, isn’t it?
ISM is not Hamas. Is ISM even sympathetic with Hamas?
Why would Hamas free a mass murderer for an international civilian?
walid, this group reminds me a little of Jundallah in the sense they keep making trouble for our ‘enemies’. have you read Jundallah arrest proves timely for Iran?
we didn’t get his news in the US msm.
Arabnews.com reports Reuters as saying that the kidnap is in response to detention last month of Hesham Al-Sa’eedni. Mr. Arrigoni is apparently meant to be traded.
Maan News Agency added that Vittorio arrived in Gaza in 2008 on a Free Gaza boat and stayed to be able to do reporting from inside of Gaza. They also said that he was kidnapped when preparing to travel to Italy to see his sick father.
this reminds me of the italian journo kidnapped in iraq and then her body guard ‘accidently’ shot thru the head (assassinated) by american an soldier (snipers ) on the way to the airport.
Events like that are slowly changing the nature of the US government’s relationship with the European public. Bear in mind some of the signature events young Italians will grow up with as they look at the US: there’s the above, and then there’s the the CIA agents who can never go to Europe because of the Italian warrant out for their arrest and sentencing for “extraordinary rendition” (i.e. kidnapping and torture) against Italian citizens.
preparing to travel to Italy to see his sick father
his family. his father and mother. my heart grieves for their pain and loss. my prayers go out to them.
Is there anything we can do to help Vittorio Arigoni?
“is there anything we can do to help Vittorio Arrigoni?”
Yes, Elliot, if your first name is Jesus you could put your hand on him and ask him to stand up.
Otherwise condolences to his family are the only solution.
theo, when the thread started the first comments reflect the reactions to news of his kidnapping. the title and contents have since been updated.
there was no 30 hours. there was no trade for a comrade/prisoner there was none of that.
Thank you, Annie, I did not catch the time change in the story.
I joined on Apr. 15th with my comments.
Elliot, mea culpa.
As Walid points out these guys are real bad news. They belong to the Salafi sect (an extreme Sunni branch) that is the official state religion of Saudi Arabia though it is not clear how much SA controls them. They were very active in Iraq. They were the ones supplying the suicide bombers and seem to have been the ones who blew up the Shia shrine which ignited the Sunni-Shia civil war there. They are the major suspects in the horrific attack against the Assyrian Christian church last November (surviving withnesses mentioned that they spoke Arabic with Saudi accents).
Poor Vitorrio is in deep trouble.
I remember his writings during Cast Lead – they were so vivid and moving. This is really dreadful, because he is there to bear witness and he did so throughout the entire war, if I remember correctly. Kidnapping someone who is on “your own side” is completely self-defeating. Well, kidnapping anyone is probably completely self-defeating but this even more so. Unless the salafists consider themselves to be not “of” Palestine or Gaza, in which case I suppose it’s not self-defeating.
I really hope it’s resolved soon.
This is gut wrenching news. Heart and prayers with Vittorio who has been doing amazing work in Gaza. Another brother in the good fight there is Ken O’Keefe and there are hundreds/thousands! more who also sacrifice their personal lives because they cannot bear to see/know of the INJUSTICES and HYPOCRISY in high places and just look/walk away.
Please also remember the 1986 Israeli kidnapping of Mordechai Vanunu, the whistle blower of their WMD program.
On 21 April he will begin his 8th year under 24/7 surveillance denied the right to leave Israel ever since he emerged from 18 years in a tomb sized windowless cell for providing the photos and testimony that lead nuclear physicists to conclude that Israel had manufactured upwards of 200 nuclear war heads in their 7-story underground facility- that is older than Japans reactors and shares the same technology but has never been inspected.
Hey can we exchange Pollard for Vanunu? A win-win, yes?
Tomorrow morning at 10am in Al Manara Square in Ramallah and at 12 in Bethlehem, Nablus and Gaza Palestinian and international associations and NGOs will demonstrate for the immediate liberation of Vittorio Arrigoni, Italian ISM volunteer kidnapped today in Gaza. Below is the press release from Luisa Morgantini, which has been translated to Arabic and sent to radio stations and journalists. Please help circulate to all your lists and contacts.
I’m unable to post at the moment, if somene could publish this as a separate post, I would appreciate it.
*FREE VITTORIO ARRIGONI NOW!*
* *
*We have learnt with anguish and dismay about the kidnapping of the Italian
volunteer Vittorio Arrigoni. *
* *
*We call on the government of Gaza, on Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh and on
all the authorities in the Gaza Strip to intervene immediately and to
negotiate with the groups who are responsible for the abduction of Vittorio.
*
* *
*We also call on the Italian Government in order to engage any possible
action and to be in connection with the Palestinian Authority in Gaza,
whilst intervening for an immediate end of the siege on Gaza. *
* *
*Vittorio and International Solidarity volunteers’ activities represent a
daily engagement of great humanity and responsibility alongside the
population in Gaza, affected by a collective punishment and a brutal and
illegal siege perpetrated by Israel.*
* *
*Vittorio and ISM volunteers have documented during these years the daily
violation of human rights of the Palestinian population in Gaza and
accompanied and assisted farmers and fishermen who are prevented from
working their land and fishing in their see by the Israeli army. *
* *
*Vittorio must be released immediately. *
* *
*In these hours, several appeals have been launched by civil society groups
in Gaza, demanding Arrigoni’s immediate release, and asking not to be
confused with extremist groups who are responsible for Vittorio’s
kidnapping.*
* *
*STAY HUMAN.*
* *
*Italian Peace Association *
* *
*Luisa Morgantini*
RE: “the group that is thought to have taken Mr Arrigoni is part of a movement sometimes called Salafism.” – BBC
RELATED ARTICLE – Egyptians alarmed over rise in influence of Salafis in post-Mubarak era, by Abeer Tayel, Al Arabiya, 04/14/11
RELATED ARTICLE – “Shias accuse Saudi Arabia of mobilizing Salafis to disrupt Egypt’s unity, by Osama el-Mahdy, Al-Masry Al-Youm, 04/10/11
P.S. A RELATED COMMENTARY: “Egyptian extremism sees Salafis attacking Sufi mosques”, by Irfan al-Alawi, guardian.co.uk, 04/11/11
LINK – link to guardian.co.uk
I think this terrible incident also highlights a major breakdown in American foreign policy. In purely pragmatic, so-called “realpolitik” terms, if al-Qaeda is the biggest active threat to the US, and Hamas is a natural and demonstrated enemy to al-Qaeda and its affiliates, it stands to reason that people who are hawkish about US national security interests should favor having at least some sort of relationship with Hamas. Purely in terms of US national security it makes sense. It’s why Mubarak, Musharraf and the royal Saudi family have all been buddy-buddy with the US, and why Qaddafi was going in that direction before recent events.
Arrigoni was kidnapped by an al-Qaeda aligned terrorist faction, and that faction is clearly the enemy of Hamas.
TO BE CLEAR, I am not suggesting that we should be allying with Hamas. I think Hamas has some crimes of their own to answer for. But, purely in terms of American interests and putting aside concerns like justice, global welfare, etc. there is a pretty glaring hole whereby some governmental entities that conduct themselves in such a fashion are favored because they are advantageous to securing American interests (albeit in a short-sighted fashion that bolsters the elite political class we now have here), but not Hamas.
The hole in the equation, of course, is exactly the size of Israel and her ill-defined, colonializing ever-shifting borders. It’s the one thing that American war hawk “patriots,” apparently, will even sacrifice America for.
If we refused to ally with anyone who had crimes on their hands, where would we be? Is Israel white-as-snow? (for instance only).
We should ally with Hamas because it is a freedom-fighter which has not (as far as I know) attacked USA but only Israel, which is right and proper (for it). Also, the artificial Hamas-Fatah “war” was started by the USA (at Israel’s bidding I should imagine) and should be stopped. If Hamas is anti Al-Qaeda, so much the more so. The Palestinians should be protected (and should protect themselves as well as they can) against infiltration by anti-USA elements; because they depend on USA (rightly or wrongly).
Hamas has also attacked Palestinians who do not ally with them politically. Don’t forget that. You raise a good point though — it wouldn’t be a question of allying with either Hamas or Fatah if we hadn’t deliberately sabotaged the Palestinian unity government. And the Palestinians would make far better allies against al-Qaeda than Israel would have. Could you imagine if we’d gone in that direction? If we’d supported the Palestinians instead of participating in Israel’s occupation policy, we’d have knocked the wind out of al-Qaeda’s sails regarding one of their strongest ideological points (that we participate in the suppression of Arab people and of the Palestinians specifically)
Yeah, that’s what George Washington was talking about in his farewell address to his fellow Americans. The de jure and de facto Christian Zionists, beginning with politically practical & ambitious Truman, have been a real cancer in Uncle Sam’s bones…
Wait, I thought that the ISM was friends with the Palestinians? Just like all of you are?
Aaaaawwwww… the poor little Israeli is trying to comprehend the situational complexity of a terrorist organization attacking a foreign citizen to embarrass and extort the local government through the prism of his racist perception of Palestinians as one big marauding Arab horde! It’s so cute when they try to pretend to be grown-ups!
Fail, LLi, fail we are not racists like you who would blame all the Palestinain people for the actions of an extreme minority of sick minded individuals.
As someone who has volunteered with the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign I’ve met a good few people who volunteered to travel over to Palestine with the ISM. This is awful news.
I would say that this shouldn’t discourage anyone thinking of volunteering with the ISM. The ISM mainly has its volunteers around the West Bank. Seems Vittorio Arrigoni was based in Gaza city due to his experience in the ISM (over 2 years) and also the fact that he was a journalist as well as a volunteer.
Secondly these radical Salafists (ie Jihadists) are no friends of Palestine and never have been. It is easy to see why as well. Salafists generally don’t believe in nation states (instead believe in the Ummah) and despise any group that is involved in politics (since under Salafism anyone who runs for political office is undermining the authority of the Koran). You will notice the same thing with Bin Laden and his gang, they will talk alot about freeing Palestine in speeches to get popular support for there own cause but Al Qaeda has never lifted a finger in the I/P conflict.
PS: Wouldn’t be surprised if Saudi Arabia (which funds these Salafist groups) is behind it since they have been trying to undermine Hamas in favor of Fatah. They are probably the ones who gave the green light to Islamic Jihad to escalate the rocket fire as well again in the hopes of crushing Hamas.
PS: Wouldn’t be surprised if Saudi Arabia (which funds these Salafist groups) is behind it since they have been trying to undermine Hamas in favor of Fatah.
or they could have backing similar to jundallah.
I’m sorry to say have to share this, but BBC is saying they found his body. Condolences
link to bbc.co.uk
Yes, it’s on al-Jazeera English as well.
What a terrible tragedy.
This just came in: the body of Vittorio Arrigoni has been found; Hama has been arresting people
link to jpost.com
How awful. May he rest in peace.
I heard it’s the Salafists. So why do I keep thinking of Juliano Mer Khanis?
Or the continuing rocket barrages from Gaza which Hamas is apparently dead-set against?
Or the Itamar murders?
Each and every one a PR point for Israel, allowing it to direct accusing fingers at the “innate barbarism” of the Arabs. “Animals” does LLI call “them”, all too readily (though I wish the lobby-bibi wing-nuts stopped using the good name of animals as epithetes to be bandied about).
All aforementioned unfortunate events happening over a relatively short time, almost in a sequence.
Clusters can be coincidental. But when the # of events pile up, it gets increasingly harder to summon happenstance (yes, I know, there are those “animals”).
As a lifelong student of patterns, there’s something about this particular cluster that seems to form a sort of arrow in my mind. Possibly pointing towards September; or BDS; or both. Be it as it may, Salafis or whatever, funded by whomever, it’s best not to rule out anything.
This murder could be especially useful as part of the campaign to prevent the next Gaza flotilla.
Each and every one a PR point for Israel….part of the campaign to prevent the next Gaza flotilla.
they couldn’t have hired better pr for billions.
As a lifelong student of patterns, there’s something about this particular cluster that seems to form a sort of arrow in my mind. Possibly pointing towards September; or BDS; or both. Be it as it may, Salafis or whatever, funded by whomever, it’s best not to rule out anything.
I could not agree more with you about the patterns.
This could conceivably be part of a campaign to prevent Palestinian reconciliation and a UN vote on statehood, and a drive toward “revolution” and a more enlightened future… Also perhaps an arrow at the heart of Europe as they move towards more active intervention to take up slack where the US is hindered by domestic politics?
I also take note of the fact that when the rabid extremists raise their heads, they are not infrequently the creation of our own “security” agencies seeking pretexts for retaliatory violence or whatever agenda they have. This was pretty clearly the case in Nahr al-Bared, as Annie noted above…
I don’t know enough about the situation in Gaza now, though, to know if that is even plausible… it seems to me that this time it’s sadly more plausibly homegrown although it seems at odds with what I know about Palestinians – they are more usually extremely hospitable to foreigners who come to their aid, almost beyond imagining. Still I know that there are darker forces and also that the traumatic circumstances that have gripped Gaza for so long may have taken their toll in pushing many over the edge in these ways as well.
This is a dark day. May his soul find peace.
Yeah, those patterns… I imagine Netanahu is quaking over the thought of a UN General Assembly vote authorizing a self-declared Palestinian state not subject to UN Sec Counsel (US) veto. Why, if that happened, the Palestinians would benefit from having a seat in the UN, would actually benefit from international law, would be full-fledged negotiators at the table, not mere supplicants at the mercy of USisrael.
Why the notion of a coalition to enforce a no fly zone over the OT would be almost tangible… Imagine that. The illegal occupation would be clear as crystal.
Danaa,
I heard it’s the Salafists. So why do I keep thinking of Juliano Mer Khanis?
Or the continuing rocket barrages from Gaza which Hamas is apparently dead-set against?
Or the Itamar murders?
Each and every one a PR point for Israel, allowing it to direct accusing fingers at the “innate barbarism” of the Arabs. . . . it gets increasingly harder to summon happenstance. . . .Possibly pointing towards September; or BDS; or both.
My thoughts exactly. Especially since I’ve been reading about the Mistaravim, and recall Ostrovsky’s books, particularly the novel he wrote where he said (1) he put things in the novel he couldn’t reveal otherwise, and (2) created a story in which Abu Nidal was working undercover for Israel.
And I agree with you about the animals.
my friends husband’s brother was a Mistaravim. he told me his brother would befriend palestinians and then kill them. he looked palestinian himself. this was 10 years ago before i knew hardly anything about the israel/palestine.
annie, didn’t you start following this in like 2004?
i can’t remember exactly when israel came on my radar. i can’t recall the date exactly right now but i got online around the time we invaded iraq, the spring of 03 . it was after that. my brain is not organized right now. i’m sad.
but i do remember when arik told me about his brother. he was building my porch and doing some remodel work for me. we were on the porch. the information completely shocked me and i could hardly believe it. i could find out the exact year of that conversation. it was in august and him and his wife (my friend) moved into that same house the following september. so i could find out. i have records.
they divorced and he moved back to israel after 20 years of marriage. there’s more to that story regarding israel/trauma but this is not the time.
MRW, you and annie have blamed:
Itamar, the Jerusalem bombing, the katyusha’s from Hamas, the bus bombing, the Juliano murder and now this on Israel.
I mean seriously, who is this helping?
DBG,
Yeah, blame the Gentiles. Better yet, read Danaa.
Conspiracy theories won’t bring him back MRW, you disrespect his life by trying to turn it into some far flung false flag/inside job story.
dbg, there’s a present in this comment section for you, it’s right up your alley.
I am blaming the people who are being blamed for the crimes, arrested for the crimes, etc. when did that become unfathomable?
DBG,
Reread what I wrote. You are misrepresenting what I wrote, or as Mooser likes to say: injecting Ziocaine into the discussion. I was agreeing with Danaa’s perception of patterns, and the eerie presence of them in these odd murders, a discussion we’ve had on these boards for a couple of years before you showed up. Check the archives.
Danaa, it’s working. Read Gellian’s post below. ;-)
Which makes me even more suspicious.
Danaa,
Animals” does LLI call “them”,
Actually, I never used and never will use that term. I lived in Israel for 8 years, and I respect all human beings so long as they do the same. As a former combat soldier in the IDF, I know how ugly war is. I know how much Israelis want peace. The ISM and their supporters here, however not only do not respect Israelis, you demonize us at every turn, calling us every name in the book. So, first check your facts, and second, don’t be a hypocrite.
OK, in the interest of fairness (especially to all animals), it was not you who so labeled the Palestinians, but Western Sky. So you can go and adopt a kitty now (maybe; you’re still on probation on that score).
And yes, I know they hate ISM in Israel with a passion the likes of which is reserved only for the profound feelings the chiloni have (and voice at every opportunity) towards the haredi (and that is some passionate hate right there; if you really lived in that country then you know it’s true).
As for that that desire for peace that you claim Israelis want, you may have a point there too. They do indeed wish to live in peace on their own terms with all their ill-begotten gains intact. Not surprising, that. Who wouldn’t want to have that kind of peace?
So now that I did my fact checking, and concluded that ISM does indeed carry out god’s own work, it is your turn to go check out on the “peace loving” israelis a bit more. I suppose that wouldn’t include the pogroms carried out by the IDF’s best and bravest, say, in relentlessly persecuting the innocent villagers of Awarta, pretending to look for a murderer who never lived there. Or the joy the storm-troopers happily evicting long time residents of Jerusalem, so some well-paid colonizing dossim (oops, did I just say that?) could move in.
On the bright side, I see you couldn’t stand the sweet peace-loving denizens of Israel for more than 8 years. The sugary crudity of life there kind of gets to you after a while, doesn’t it?
Yeah, longliveisrael, why did you not stay in Israel after literally defending it? Do you feel about Israel as Tevya did about the Czar in Fiddler On The Roof?
“As a former combat soldier in the IDF, I know how ugly war is.”
Just out of curiosity, LLI, which of Israel’s many wars of conquest did you serve in? What’s it like to be a brave combat soldier in the “world’s most moral army”? Were you there in defenseless Gaza displaying your morality in Operation Cast Lead? Were you there in almost-defenseless Lebanon for the slaughter of civilians there?
Or did you simply do your duty in the IOF, breaking bones and kneecaps in the Territories?
But if I have wrongly accused you of crimes you had nothing to do with, please excuse me.
But
Why don’t you live in Israel now? Where are you?
I second your thoughts too …
omg i just saw this update. omg
Awful, awful stuff. May this man rest in peace.
Now the real challenge begins, by which I mean, maintaining support for the Palestinian cause. Every time a westerner gets killed or his head cut off or whatever, it makes me really want to circle the wagons and go back to the Israeli way of looking at things. Say what you will, the Israelis don’t do this kind of thing; westerners don’t, Muslims keep doing it. Every time I flirt with liberalism, someone ends up dead and I realize it’s all a silly fantasy.
Yep, it’s going to be a challenge this time around.
R.I.P., il mio amico.
Gellian,
Read annie April 14, 2011 at 10:37 pm
don’t bother MRW, if gellian thinks it will be hard “maintaining support for the Palestinian cause” because of this the movement is better off without her. weak links and all that.
“Better off without me,” probably not. “Me working against it” is the likely outcome. That’s the feeling I have to fight.
Someone up above put it right: last week it was an Israeli Jew theater-director who went to live in Palestine and be an activist for them. The Palestinians killed him. Now it’s this young Italian activist, who went to live in Palestine and be an activist for them. The Palestinians have now killed him.
And instead of condemning it, you crazies are spinning bizarro theories of Israeli false-flag operations?
Are you serious?
If this is the company I find myself in, I think I prefer the Israeli side. I just wish they’d get off Palestinian land so they could wash their hands of the whole thing.
Gee, Gellian, did you ever read A Modest Proposal?
And, gee, Gellian, where on earth would folks here get the impression Israel leads the world in planting false flags?
And, gee, Gellian, ever consider the thought that if Israelis got off Palestinian land the Israelis would have a lot less dirt on their hands to wash off in the first place? Some Pilate/Pilot you are!
You dove your plane right into the deep blue sea. The red herrings no longer like you.
Gellian, I’ve avoided the false flag theorizing. If there’s evidence for it, fine, but I don’t see any. It’s entirely possible that Palestinians are guilty of these various murders but I don’t know that for sure either.
That said, suppose they are. In no way does it justify your comment. “The Palestinians” killed this young Italian activist? Obviously most are appalled by it–the very fact that some Palestinians deny it was done by Palestinians, whatever one thinks of that, shows they are ashamed that it happened. What sort of mindset even thinks like you? The question is rhetorical–I know exactly what sort of mindset you’ve got, because I grew up around white racists in the South right after Jim Crow ended. People like you were constantly looking for any excuse to say that blacks really were as bad as they always thought.
“Every time a westerner gets killed or his head cut off or whatever, it makes me really want to circle the wagons and go back to the Israeli way of looking at things. Say what you will, the Israelis don’t do this kind of thing; westerners don’t, Muslims keep doing it.”
That’s right, gellian, civilized westerners impose apartheid and lie about it, or they kill at a distance and blame the victim. Very civilized, much like yourself.
“If this is the company I find myself in, I think I prefer the Israeli side. I just wish they’d get off Palestinian land so they could wash their hands of the whole thing.”
Good riddance. I don’t care for all the speculating that goes on about false flag operations, but I prefer it to your naked racism.
And, btw, I’ve reported your comment. If I ran the place I’d ban racists like you without a qualm.
The ISM in the West Bank have just confirmed that their Gaza members have identified the body of Vittario. Such horrible and sad news.
ken o’keefe sure has something to say.
there is some wonderful beautiful extraordinary video of Vittorio at the link.
RIP Vottorio. my heart…
stay away from me now, i am not in the mood for hasbara. leave me alone.
You must be sad annie, who are you talking to? I am sorry for the loss of Vittorio, from what I’ve read he seems like an amazing person.
May Allah, Hashem, and/or God bless his soul
DBG, the post annie is referring to was removed.
We’re lucky when these guys can locate the ‘Reply’ button. Don’t bother explaining the internet to these clowns. They just think it’s all a bunch of tubes.
A horrible outcome.
Too real.
No Passover angel for him, eh?
Vittorio was my friend. We sailed to Gaza together on board the FREE GAZA in August 2008. Vik stayed in Gaza until he was kidnapped by IDF forces on a fishing boat off the coast of Gaza. He was abducted to Israel, imprisoned in Ramle Prison, and finally deported home to Italy. Within days he was back in Gaza, where he stayed throughout the Gaza Massacre in December 2008 and January 2009. He has lived with the people there until his death. The last time I saw him was in Cairo during the Gaza Freedom March in December 2009 and January 2010. (Did you meet him there, Phil?) As always he was smiling, wearing his skipper’s hat and holding his beloved pipe. His death is a great tragedy for his family, his friends around the world, and especially his friends in Gaza. Vik was especially proud of his Palestinian passport, given to him as to all of us who sailed on those first two small boats. He considered himself Palestinian, and he considered Gaza his home.
There is no understanding this. Whoever killed Vik and whoever was behind whoever killed him must be brought to justice. For now, we celebrate the life of a wonderful young man who left us far too soon, and we grieve for those who can never recover from the tragic loss.
Rest in peace, Vittorio.
mariapalestina, thanks for your comforting words. i have been looking of pictures of him and his pipe today.
This is terribly sad. People like Juliano and Vittorio could flourish in a political atmosphere of nonviolent resistance. But not in a place where assassination and terrorism is the norm. Many of us who supported nonviolent resistance warned that it would be so easy to discredit with just a few well placed acts of violence. Who benefits from this? Right wing Israelis to be sure. I think the biggest beneficiaries of this kind mindless violence is Saudi Arabia. It should be clear to any clear thinking person that war (Arabs against the Jews) is probably the best protection that the Saudi tyrants have against home grown demands for democracy and justice. Do not forget that the Salafi are adherents to the official state religions of the Saudi regime. This is a problem that must be addressed.
If Mr. Vittorio Arrigoni has in fact been found dead, then words cannot describe my outrage. This is UNACCEPTABLE.
The message this abduction (and possible murder) sends is that activists who come to the aid of Palestinians are not safe, that their lives are in danger.
This entire sequence of events, starting with the murders in the West Bank colony, followed by the murder of Mr. Mer-Khamis and now the possible murder of Mr. Arrigoni is starting to look like a campaign of liquidation.
And god damn it, it’s unacceptable. I’m livid. The implications of this are that no Israeli, no Jew, no international citizen of the world is safe in the West Bank or Gaza.
This will ISOLATE the Palestinians and destroy ALL the hard work many, many good people of conscience the world over have been doing for years.
This is a setback. It’s essentially an act of terrorism aimed at scaring anyone who cares for justice and human dignity away from Palestinians.
i agree completely.
Sometime in 1988, a man by the name of Abu-Jihad who was a top leader within the PLO was assassinated one night in Tunis.
The following morning, the media in Israel reported about the killing. I still remember the newspaper articles in which various Israeli leaders claimed that Arafat had assassinated Abu-Jihad.
At the time, some Israelis and certainly many Palestinians were convinced that Israel was behind the assassination. But, the tone in the west was set by Israel, it’s lobby and with the great support of the United States and its allies in Europe.
Recall that this was around the same time the first Intifadah started and the PLO headed by Yasser Arafat was planning on declaring Palestinian statehood.
Israel never officially admitted to the assassination. It blamed Arafat. It wasn’t until the late 1990s and early 2000s that the Israeli press got a whiff of what had taken place in 1988 in Tunis that it became widely known that Israel was behind the assassination. Then, when Victor Ostrovsky came out with his book, he provided a detailed account of the events surrounding, and leading up to, the assassination of Abu-Jihad.
Abu-Jihad was assasinated in Tunisia in April 1988.
In November of that year, Arafat’s PLO declared Palestinian statehood.
wow, the events seem very similar/ parallel to current events.
Wow, comparing the murder of Abu-Jihad to that of Mer-Khamis and Vittorio, are you saying these two were terrorist masterminds?
And then bringing in Ostrovsky to boot. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed reading his book, but the majority is a work of fiction.
No. You are saying that so as to twist my statements in an attempt to dismiss them.
The point is that the political outcome sought by the killing of the aforementioned is similar. But, you seem unable to comprehend that which you read.
You display your dishonesty with great pride. I wrote that the Israeli press published information in which Israel was the perpetrator and yet you focus on Ostrovsky so as to — yet again — discredit my point.
As an aside, you claimed that Abu Jihad was a “terrorist mastermind”, did you get that from watching Austin Powers?
DBG,
And then bringing in Ostrovsky to boot. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed reading his book, but the majority is a work of fiction.
Fiction? The one Israel went to the US Supreme Court to kill, and failed?
Ostrovsky didn’t write it. Clair Hoy (male) wrote it. He is a Canadian parliamentary reporter [equivalent to senior White House Correspondent] who had 30 years under his belt at the time, and impeccable credentials, which is why Ostrovsky chose him. It took a long while to convince Hoy. Hoy insisted on seeing original documents (the same that Israel tried to get the Defense to return), having them translated by his choice of translator, meeting with Senator Pete Domenici to confirm things he was told.
Hoy knew that if he got this book wrong, his career would be over. You have no idea who Clair Hoy is, so I don’t expect you to understand how untouchable his reputation is.
MRW,
Indeed. Those are important facts to remember about Clair Hoy and Israel’s attempts at squelching Ostrovsky, including court orders and pressure and threats via various Zionist groups in Canada.
You’re right, Avi, and who would want that to happen? [A sincere question, BTW.]
In the aftermath of the Gaza flotilla of last year, one Hamas spokesperson stated something to the effect that international solidarity that sought to break the siege had achieved more than 10,000 rockets ever could.
The group that had kidnapped Mr. Arrigoni claimed to have wanted to exchange him for one of their prisoners. Yet, well before the deadline was set to expire, they killed him. So, the initial claim surrounding the exchange of prisoners was a charade, a cover, if you will.
Thus, who benefits from these recent killings? The answer is, none other than Israel.
In the aftermath of the Gaza flotilla of last year, one Hamas spokesperson stated something to the effect that international solidarity that sought to break the siege had achieved more than 10,000 rockets ever could.
Netanyahu to UN Chief: Upcoming Gaza flotilla must be stopped
i happen to know from first hand experience the USboat to gaza is not being organized by extreme ‘islamists’.
How exactly does Israel benefit? I think Hamas is the group that benefits. By not being allowed to “exchange” his poor soul for the leader of the terrorist group, they can gain favor by claiming to be in a war with al qaeda (Qaddafi tried it).
The latest round of fighting was an absolute disaster for Hamas, this is a perfect diversion.
Avi, I also thought it was mighty strange that Vittorio was killed well before the expiration of that deadline. Kind of undermines the story line of “prisoner release”.
There may be salafis alright in the camp, but who funds them? what do they actually want? how does the killing of the peace activist help them in any way?
Anyway one looks at it, even from afar, even not knowing much about Gaza, one can see that something does not add up here.
Just as it didn’t add up in the Juliano killing, or the Itamar murders.
And did we mention yet the Jerusalem phone booth bombing? any suspect in custody yet in that one? didn’t read anything lately – went off the news page in one swoop. Maybe there’s a gag order…there always seems to be one…
Like you say, follow the beneficiaries…and it most certainly isn’t Hamas, and obviously not some mysterious Salafis, who get very little out of the debacle.
But here’s the really scary thing: what would you do if you were in Shabak’s shoes (or Mossad or any other israeli security operator). What coup de grace would you go for, to discourage the activists, to dump cold water on the flotilla planning, to plant doubt in the hearts of the bleeding hearts about the true humanity of Palestinians? (just see Gellian’s comment above. Makes me kind of wonder about sleeper agents….oh well, if he is one, he’s been good). All that right at a crucial time for the PA’s plan for a state and the delicate negotiations going on about whether “they be ready for a state” (OK, just doing my profiler work here…).
Some time ago, I concluded that, right or wrong, the powers that be in Israel concluded that Human Rights IS the enemy of the state. If so, there are bound to be policy repercussions – above board as well as in the damp underground where demons dwell…
The killing of Vittorio certainly does not pass the smell test, as most of us here seem to agree. But I do worry that someone somewhere has made the decision to move into higher gear.
Something about The Timing, it’s always about the timing….
Yes, Danaa, isn’t the Palestinian self-declaration of their own state to the UN Gen Assembly set for this coming November?
That’s utter nonsense. Hamas can gain favor? Israel is hell bent on destroying Hamas. Yet, you’re under the illusion that Hamas is somehow trying to curry favor with Israel?
Stick to posting rants. Anything that involves thinking is clearly beyond your abilities.
i think it is september citizen
The General Assembly meets in September every year.
I normally am extremely skeptical of “conspiracy” theories, but Danaa makes a lot of sense here.
Its unlikely. Why is Hamas arresting people relative to Arrigoni’s death?
Richard: “Its” is not “it’s.”
Content, North.
Gain favor with the international community you buffoon. They just blew a school bus, this was meant as a deflection to that and the fact that their armed struggle has the teeth of an infant now that their missiles are being shot down and their Russian made Kornet missiles are only good for shooting yellow school buses.
As for thinking, Avi you’ve blamed every attack which has happened in the last 2 months on Israel, you don’t even think. Talk about the lack of critical thinking, you just automatically come up w/ some conspiracy.
It’s cute how Israel can bomb as many schools and hospitals as it likes and “gaining favor” with the international community never matters. Never mind that Israel is THE WORST violator of human rights standards, international treaty obligations and UN resolutions in the history that such of have existed.
Richard: “It’s”
Don’t bother, Mr. North. Consider the massive array of things Witty gets wrong, punctuation is relatively minor.
i had not even heard of the jerusalem phone booth bombing
edit: her identity just released today
RIP Mary
Thanks, annie; guess I had a senior moment. Or was I thinking of timing, and that Obama’s speech on the budget kicked off his campaign to stay in orifice?
That’s an outright lie and you know that very well. When the murders in the West Bank colony took place I cautioned against rushing to conclusions without knowing full well who the perpetrator was.
I did the same with information regarding the murder of Juliano Mer-Khamis.
Your accusations are dishonest and without merit. And if you are so inclined to level such accusations, show me quotes with direct links to comments that I had made. Prove that your accusations are based on fact. Fortunately, I’m not holding my breath.
“The implications of this are that no Israeli, no Jew, no international citizen of the world is safe in the West Bank or Gaza. ”
Not to mention the Palestinians themselves. But I guess they have all been well aware of it for nigh onto a century.
Americans should know Rachel Corrie–they need no other proof it’s unsafe to protest against Israel’s activities over there–and we all know the Corrie’s won’t get that principled shekel from the land of the light to the world. Reminds me of an old joke, or a few of them.
from 2009: Israeli-HIT-LIST-Includes-Vittorio-Utopia-Arrigoni
link to scribd.com
interesting. a kind of ‘jewish kkk’ hit list. lee kaplan huh?
this is old mondoweiss news someone commented on here in Jan. 2009
scroll down for comment:
link to mondoweiss.net
BINGO!
chilling Lydda
This is explosive. I hope everyone is downloading the PDF from Scribd before it gets taken down.
Dear Avi, I have never been afraid in Gaza, and in Palestine my only fear comes from illegal Jewish colonists and Israeli soldiers and police. Clearly Bibi and Co are ratcheting things up lately in response to the negative image Israel now enjoys around the world (even in the U.S. except for Washington) If Palestinians caused the deaths of the colonist family in Itamar — an outpost of savages if there ever was one — then they should be arrested and given a fair trial. If Palestinians killed Vittorio, which at the moment it appears is the case, then we need to know who is pulling their strings and paying their bills. We only have to cast our eyes a little eastward. It’s well known that every Palestinian arrested by Israel, whether guilty of anything or not, is pressured by Shabak or Mossad, by use of torture or of threats against themselves or their families, to work for Israel. Sadly, faced with the alternative, some save themselves and their families by giving in. Israel supported Hamas when it thought it was useful to do so. It isn’t much of a stretch to suppose it’s now creating groups to undermine Hamas. The thugs who carried out this horrendous crime against Vik might be working for Israel without even knowing it. Such is the depth of Israel’s cunning, combined with its hatred of Palestinians and its desire to destroy them.
Ken O’Keefe just made a rambling, bizarre youtube video about this activist’s death. He blamed Israel, and not only figuratively as an offshoot of the occupation as some do here, but in a very literal sense. He, O’Keefe appears to have a bruise over his eye, appears quite tense and basically gave the standard Islamist denunciation of western intervention in Muslim lands.
There is no doubt in my mind O’Keefe does not believe his own words about Israel being behind this murder. Salafist are simply extremists kooks which are found in every religion and are the same in every religion. They renounce not only the non-Muslim world, but denounce almost all Muslim regime as being apostate regimes, non-Muslim, and deserving of death. In their own mindset, the actual ethnicity of the Palestinian nation or any other ethnic division within the arab world in an artificial construct of either Westerners or corrupt apostate arab governments. This is how they view Hamas. And if this murder hurts Hamas, so much the better for the Salafists. To attack westerners, to attack Israel in distinct operations from Hamas, sows disunity and brings unrest within Gaza.
I believe UBL’s second in command is a salafist in this sense, drinking in the wisdom from the classic text Signposts Along the Way.
To give you an idea what you’re up against, here’s a statement released by Abu al-Waleed Maqdisi’s followers in early March calling on the Umma to help in his release by Hamas. They too believe God appointed them for something special; from the group’s website:
A Statement to the Ummah about the arrest of the Resolute Mujahid Sheikh, Abul-Waleed Al Maqdisi
Translated by the Ansarullah English Team
All praise be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists, and may peace and blessings be upon the Leader of the Mujahideen, upon his companions, and all those who followed him in goodness till the Day of Recompense. To proceed:
Allah Most High has stated:
أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَنْ تَدْخُلُوا الْجَنَّةَ وَلَمَّا يَأْتِكُمْ مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ مَسَّتْهُمُ الْبَأْسَاءُ وَالضَّرَّاءُ وَزُلْزِلُوا حَتَّى يَقُولَ الرَّسُولُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ مَتَى نَصْرُ اللَّهِ أَلَا إِنَّ نَصْرَ اللَّهِ قَرِيبٌ
“Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They were afflicted with severe poverty and ailments and were so shaken that even the Messenger and those who believed along with him said, “When (will come) the Help of Allah?” Yes! Certainly, the Help of Allah is near!”(Al Baqarah: 214)
Our precious Muslim Ummah:
Anyone who ponders over the path of Dawah and Jihad taken by the Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam followed by the Companions and the great Mujahideen throughout history filled with might, honor and supremacy, will come to know with certainty that it is a path which has been paved with the blood of the martyrs, the torture of prisoners, the pains of the injured, and the loneliness of the Muhajireen. This was also Allah Most High’s way with the best of creation, may peace be upon them. Yahya was slaughtered, Yousuf was imprisoned, and Ibraheem was cast into a fire. Our Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam emigrated and suffered injuries. It is a path which none have taken except that they were injured, and due to which people ousted and tortured their own people. So what can harm the Muwahiddeen after all this?
Allah, Blessed and High, wished that the patient Mujahid Sheikh, Abul-Waleed Al-Maqdisi, the Ameer of the “Tawheed and Jama’ah Group in Jerusalem” (Jama’ah Al Tawheed wal Jihad fi Bait Al Maqdis) be imprisoned on Wednesday morning, Rabi Al Awwal, 27, 1432 (2-03-2011 CE), by the interior security forces of the Hamas government which has replaces the Laws of Allah who kidnapped the Sheikh from one of the areas of Beach Camp in Gaza, after two years of pursuit and disfigurement of himself and his group in the media in for the last two years, during which he remained patient, waging Jihad and speaking out for the Truth and Tawheed, move about the small Gaza Strip. He set the most amazing examples of patience and comfort with the set appointed time of Allah Mighty and Majestic. In the darkest of times, he was confident, composed, patient, and prayed for strength, reminding those around him that trials are the most apparent signs of the correctness of one’s methodology and clarity of one’s call and belief.
The Sheikh, may Allah free him, expected that day to arrive, and thus he had prepared himself and others for it as well, by the Grace of Allah Most High. Despite this great affliction, little support, and danger of the path, we in the Shura Committee of the Tawheed and Jihad Group in the Precincts of the Jerusalem promise Allah Most High that we will never changer or retract, by Allah’s Help, and we will continue to raise this flag of Jihad in Allah’s Cause high and lofty. We will fight the enemies of Allah with whatever means He has bestowed upon us, speaking out for the Call of Tawheed until the Flag of Tawheed is raised pure and clean over the walls of the place where Allah’s Messenger was taken on a Night Journey (Israa – Masjid Al Aqsa), and until we govern the precincts of Jerusalem and all other Muslim lands with Shariah of Allah, the Praiseworthy and Majestic, or we will die in its cause. Allah is sufficient for us, and what a good Administrator of affairs.
Due to conflicting reports in the media and the spread of unauthenticated reports in recents days, we would like to remind that the official and sole source for the statements of the Groups is that which is posted by our official correspondent with our name in the Jihadi internet forums Shumukh Al Islam and Ansar Al Mujahideen, and they must abide by this.
We ask Allah to speed the release of our Sheikh and all others Muslim prisoners, and to honor our Ummah with Jihad and not deprive us from empowerment.
The Shura Committee of the Tawheed and Jihad Group in Jerusalem
Saturday, Rabi Al Awwal, 30, 1432 (5-3-2011 CE)
link to ansarullah.co.cc
extremism in any form breeds violence and intolerance. Christians, Jews and Muslims need to recognize this. if we want to live in peace we at the very least need to work for tolerant communities/ nations.
Good job, Walid. This post of yours reminds of the time you quoted from Al-Arabiya without questioning the source.
Instead of posting all this, you could have simply used a few scary words like Jihad, Fatwah, Mujahideen and Al-Jazeera.
As if to add insult to injury you open with the line, “To give you an idea what you’re up against [...]”
So that’s your explanation, that a group of fanatics carried out this murder due to religious dogma?
I’m just curious, do you live in a bubble?
No luxury of bubbles where I live, Avi and I don’t remember quoting anything from al-Arabia without having qualified it as a pro-US/Israel Saudi station or to say it was providing more or less superficial coverage of Libya and Bahrain for obvious reasons. The source for my post was as I stated, from their own website.
Read my second post below in reply to Dr Gonzo’s comments; you might gather that I’m saying in so many other words that these religious people are being used by others with a political agenda such as one to damage Iran. The same sponsors used them in Iraq to blow Shia mosques during mass gatherings to stir things between the Shia and Sunni, to blow away Hizbullah on which they reneged after having received the sophisticated arms and the cash and the army was sent in after them at Nahr el-Bared, in Jordan with the Zarqawi hit on the hotel, and in various poltical assassinations in Lebanon and elsewhere and that now in Gaza, it would not have been averse to taking a contract from Israel and friends to put out Hamas’ lights by abducting Vittorio when it could have corralled dozens of Gazans for the bogus intended trade-off.
My opening comment about the “what you’re up against” came in response to what appeared of 3 other posters taking them lightly and I’m saying they shouldn’t. Considering what you wrote to me and to Shmuel, you’re quite cryptic yourself in your posts; what are you trying to say?
i hope avi takes your words here to heart, including “averse to taking a contract” wrt concepts of collaborations and re reads shmuel’s text (which i did not find muddled in the least) and consider perhaps if he is anything like me, unnerved by recent events, possibly lashing out.
exactly. askariya mosque bombing in samarra kicked off ‘operation forward together’ which finally succeeded in splitting iraq’s guts wide open. they couldn’t get that civil war started any other way. and how could anyone forget al baghdadi, the guy w/nine lives from the ‘Islamic State of Iraq’. they kept killing him and resurrecting him and arresting him over and over until finally they admitted he was a hoax. iraqi just weren’t buying it anymore but more importantly once the decided to ‘befriend’ or pay off sunnis they had no used for an excuse to slaughter them via this weird version of ‘AQ’ or whatever he was.
If only just causes were simple – good guys over here and bad guys over there. If only the oppressed always behaved with dignity and “purity” (in both violent and non-violent struggle). If only suffering and deprivation could be noble and eager to embrace unity and solidarity. If only victims treated others with the respect and kindness they themselves are denied. Were Juliano and Vittorio naive? Only if courage of conviction depends on a neat division between friend and foe (in phosphorescent colour-coded uniforms, of course). Brave, good men, who pursued justice with justice and humanity. Those who limit themselves to perfectly “aesthetic” struggles, merely further the cause of oppression. Che ti sia lieve la terra, Vittorio.
You’re starting to sound like witty. Is there a lucid and concise thought between all those murky vague lines?
You’re starting to sound like witty. Is there a lucid and concise thought between all those murky vague lines?
As long as you asked so nicely, the idea is that Palestinians aren’t pure as the driven snow simply because they are oppressed, and it does not help anyone – certainly not the cause of justice in Palestine – to pretend otherwise. Vittorio (and Juliano) may very well have been killed by Palestinians for whatever perverted reasons, and I’m sure they were far more aware than you or I of the dangers they faced from within as well as without.
Shmuel:
I’m sure they were far more aware than you or I of the dangers they faced from within as well as without.
Well said. The BBC just did an interview with one of Vittorio Arrigoni’s ISM friends in Gaza City. He is undeterred.
And he made the same point Shmuel made earlier that it is of no consequence that Palestinian society includes corrupt thugs like the Salafis who kidnapped and murdered Vittorio; the injustice of the occupation and colonization against the Palestinians far outweigh any of this.
Why do you assume that I base my analysis on flights of fancy rather than on experience?
I have worked with Palestinians on a couple of projects in the 1980s, one was a theater project, the other involved research at a Palestinian refugee camp in Amman where I spent three months.
Do I need a blog like Didi Reimer to be taken seriously?
By your own admission you continue to struggle with years of indoctrination. Coupled with an absence of deep knowledge about Palestinian culture, customs and language, your fallback position is to attribute the ills that which you do not understand to Palestinians, the Others.
You wrote:
Hence, your approach in attempting to understand recent events remains mired in an emotional, subjective and biased framework. An individual with a certain level of self-awareness should acknowledge that an analytical approach to the political conditions will produce a far more accurate assessment and understanding of the reality on the ground.
Avi,
I’ve written a few other things here as wll. Your thesis is cute, but entirely without basis.
What’s wrong for a Jew to be struggling with years of anti-Palestinian indoctrination; Phil does it here all the time on this and other issues of Jewish indoctrination and he is praised for it, except by Witty of course trying to save Phil’s soul from eternal damnation because of it.
Walid, Witty’s not concerned with the life to come; he just wants Phil to reflect his soul’s full potential in this decidedly earthly life, rather than the dim light of those of us with animal souls. For Witty, it’s all about tactics and he does not think Phil is sufficiently appreciative of the eternal danger posed by the existence of the goys on this earth. In short, Phil’s sin is his own experience and his awareness that Jewish history written by Jews is a tad blinkered. Witty is a drugged accountant. See Mooser for the name of Witty’s addiction.
What do you mean “cute” but “without basis”?
My point is that you have a problem understanding things that require deductive reasoning.
My point is that you have a problem understanding things that require deductive reasoning.
And what “deductive reasoning” do you base that conclusion on? You can think of no possible explanation for the fact that I might actually disagree with you sometimes (or at least your degree of certainty), so you have decided that it must have something to do with my ignorance, inner “struggle” or faulty reasoning. After all, what else could it possibly be? QED
Our experiences shape our outlook on life. A person familiar with the actions of Zionist organizations in Iraq in the 1950s understands that Israel is capable of subversive violent activities aimed at producing a certain political outcome.
A second person who is not familiar with these events, will be unwilling to immediately accept such a possibility.
This is to illustrate that while belief can and often does does cloud one’s judgment and shapes one’s judgment on certain events, at the very least, one should consider the possibility of XYZ taking place as that will lead to the cognitive willingness to consider — and give equal weight — other possibilities, and more importantly other paradigms. Hopefully this comment is not too cryptic.
Clear as a bell Avi.
Avi,
One may be fully aware of the actions of Zionist organisations in Iraq in the 1950s and have no illusions regarding the “subversive violent activities …” of which Israel is capable, yet seriously consider the possibility that things may also be what they seem to be (without compelling evidence to the contrary, beyond “cui bono”).
Such a one may also point out that there is a tendency, especially on the left, to romanticise the victims of oppression. This does not preclude considering other possibilities or paradigms, although not all possibilities and paradigms necessarily deserve “equal weight”. I hope this is not too murky or vague.
>> … one may also point out that there is a tendency, especially on the left, to romanticise the victims of oppression. This does not preclude considering other possibilities or paradigms, although not all possibilities and paradigms necessarily deserve “equal weight”.
I agree.
Answer me this, what qualifications do you have to presume to know what you are talking about?
You know close to nothing about Islam, you do not read Arabic, you had very limited contact with Palestinians, by your own admission you were fearful when you visited East Jerusalem, you have not the political science research or experience to make a well-reasoned assessment, and your focus and knowledge clearly revolve around Jewish theology and Jewish studies — evident by your participation in thread after thread which deal with such subjects — and yet, you posses the arrogant confidence to lecture others about matters for which you clearly lack the knowledge and background.
As an aside, look what your racist pal Larry Derfner has posted. Read all his comments below.
Answer me this
I wrote nothing that exceeds my level of knowledge or experience. I wish I could say the same about your arrogant harangues against those who dare to disagree with you even in matters of emphasis or degree.
As an aside, your aside is hardly a shining example of “deductive reasoning” or “well-reasoned assessment”.
I think I’ve had enough of this ridiculous conversation.
A message from Cindy Corrie to Luisa Morgantini:
Thanks for sharing, Schmuel. How long do you think the Corrie kangeroo case will go on before the decision not to give that one shekel to the Corrie’s is made?
“… Secondly these radical Salafists (ie Jihadists) are no friends of Palestine and never have been. It is easy to see why as well. Salafists generally don’t believe in nation states (instead believe in the Ummah) and despise any group that is involved in politics (since under Salafism anyone who runs for political office is undermining the authority of the Koran). You will notice the same thing with Bin Laden and his gang, they will talk alot about freeing Palestine in speeches to get popular support for there own cause but Al Qaeda has never lifted a finger in the I/P conflict.
PS: Wouldn’t be surprised if Saudi Arabia (which funds these Salafist groups) is behind it since they have been trying to undermine Hamas in favor of Fatah. They are probably the ones who gave the green light to Islamic Jihad to escalate the rocket fire as well again in the hopes of crushing Hamas.” (Dr Gonzo)
Dr. Gonzo is so right; these holy rollers don’t give a damn about Palestine as they despise Fateh and Hamas equally because neither is ruling according to K0ranic laws. Their Lebanese counterpart was responsile for the roadside bomb that killed the 6 UNIFIL peacekeepers four years back and are the ones shooting Katyushas into Israel from Lebanon to provoke a retaliation by Israel against Hizbullah that they consider heretical Muslims. They are also suspected by all (except for pro-US factions), that they are responsible for the series of political assassinations including Hariri’s.
It makes one wonder to what degree this is tied to the ongoing Sunni-Shia conflict and the campaign to have Iran bombed for interests that go beyond Israel’s, so we can conclude that the Salafists would not be averse to working with the Israelis to achieve their goals as may have happened with Vittorio. They could gave just as easily captured a large number of Hamas partisans to be ransomed for their leader but chose a sole international activist and killed him before the deadline expired.
As to their counterpart in Egypt, the following appeared on the War in Context Blog:
When Israel, the US and the Salafists were on the same side
by News Source on February 13, 2011
Even though many Western and Israeli freedomphobes have warned about a looming threat from Islamic extremists in Egypt, they overlook the fact that Egypt’s ultra-conservative Salafi Muslims were in the “pro-stability” camp, unwilling to challenge the Mubarak regime.
Hossam Tammam writes:
Salafis unanimously boycotted the revolution, claiming it was sedition. They accepted decades of injustice, but rejected the revolution. The revolution revealed an unintended alliance between the Mubarak regime and the Salafi movement. On the one hand, this movement is backed by elements in Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, its members are periodically subjected to harassment by the regime. However, the regime does not see this as completely eliminating its alliance with the movement, as long as the movement continues to support the regime politically.
Full article:
link to warincontext.org
Sigh, I was absolutely sure that those responsible were salafi jihadist scum even as soon as I heard the news. I knew it was only a matter of time before they would start to do something like this, they are absolutely ruthless and are probably behind the murder of Juliano as well.
Itamar, explosion in Jerusalem, Mar-Khemis, Arrigoni… someone’s burning the Reichstag and making it look like Communists did it.
Personally, I don’t buy into this narrative ONE bit.
Mossad is making up for lost reputation abroad with strategic operations inside Israel/Palestine proper.
Mossad doesn’t even operate in Israel/Palestine proper. These conspiracies don’t help the Palestinian cause.
DBG “Mossad doesn’t even operate in Israel/Palestine proper.”
Would you, by any chance, be interested in some prime beach front property right near the Dead Sea? Complete with sail boat, fishing gear and mineral rights? It’s only 2 miles away – with a paved town-to-market road, and a well already dug on the property.
“These conspiracies don’t help the Palestinian cause”
Spoken as one who has been tirelessly chomping for said cause, no doubt?
I’ve done more to humanize Palestinians in my community than the majority of the commenters here. I’ve told people of my experiences I have had with Palestinians who were more than willing to show me around the West Bank, how the divide between Jews and Palestinians is more about propaganda than it is about reality.
This site is to demonize Israel, and in that demonization you accuse them for anything bad that happens in the region. This is fine when you are talking amongst yourselves (which Mondoweiss really is) but if someone trying to learn about the situation came here they’d view you guys as propagandists.
I group of people who can’t admit that the people they champion could possible do something bad, isn’t helping that cause at all. It is whitewashing and it will not help anything.
What really gets me is the same people who demonize Israel and Jews, blaming them for everything, are the same group of people who are for a one-state solution. Tell me how are you going to live w/ a group of people who is so awful?
I group of people who can’t admit that the people they champion could possible do something bad
ummm, i think it is possible a palestinian could do something bad.
What really gets me is the same people who demonize Israel and Jews, blaming them for everything, are the same group of people who are for a one-state solution.
this is just overwrought propaganda. just like jvp most people would accept any viable resolution offering equal rights for palestinians..we just realize (especially after the palestine papers came out) there no will for the israeli government to agree to a sovereign palestinian state. you are just chewing on a bone about one staters as if we are the problem. i would gladly accept 2 states, make it happen. at the same time i acknowledge the reality right now dbg and that reality is one government ruling 2 people in one land as yet undivided. iow an apartheid state. i am not for that apartheid state, i am for the government of that state applying the law w/equality. make a realistic border and i will support that, don’t blame me because you can’t.
read this and then tell me why you are here. why aren’t you battling the forces of the rightwing instead of wallowing on this site lecturing/bragging about how much you have done to ‘humanize’ palestinians.
I group of people who can’t admit that the people they champion could possible do something bad
ummm, i think it is possible a palestinian could do something bad.
What really gets me is the same people who demonize Israel and Jews, blaming them for everything, are the same group of people who are for a one-state solution.
this is just overwrought propaganda. just like jvp most people would accept any viable resolution offering equal rights for palestinians..we just realize (especially after the palestine papers came out) there no will for the israeli government to agree to a sovereign palestinian state. you are just chewing on a bone about one staters as if we are the problem. i would gladly accept 2 states, make it happen. at the same time i acknowledge the reality right now dbg and that reality is one government ruling 2 people in one land as yet undivided. iow an apartheid state. i am not for that apartheid state, i am for the government of that state applying the law w/equality. make a realistic border and i will support that, don’t blame me because you can’t.
read this and then tell me why you are here. why aren’t you battling the forces of the rightwing instead of wallowing on this site lecturing/bragging about how much you have done to ‘humanize’ palestinians.
DBG: “Tell me how are you going to live w/ a group of people who is so awful?”
That is a conundrum, indeed.
One can hope though that the Israelis can change, if only because of necessity?
Maybe, just maybe, they need the Palestinians to humanize them a bit?
“… same group of people who are for a one-state solution”
DBG, not even the Palestinians wished for one-state. Most flipped from wanting a 2-state because Israel’s continued theft of the West Bank and reliance on it for almost half of its water has made a 2-state an impossibilty. Of course, everyone including Palestinians and the Mondo crowd would jump at the prospect of seeing a separate Palestine with full access to the water in all of the WB and Gaza but since Israel has made this impossible, the 1-state is the only option left. If you’re in Israel now, you should start thinking of the future and improving your Arabic.
Remove some impunity (ie. the UN SC veto and US taxpayers multiple billions annually), add some accountability (eg. UN sanctions on Israel and sending the Goldstone Report to the ICC) and pretty soon these “awful” people – your words not mine – will come to their senses.
Maybe you need to check your assumptions DBG. Realy, is it jews and Israelis being demonized at Mondoweiss, or is it the actual behaviour of zionists? I think you’ve confused the two, and I don’t think you’re alone in that.
No conspiracy.
I voiced my own PERSONAL disbelief of these sequence of carefully-planned events (and all of them were carefully planned – with the perpetrators evading capture!) were made by Arabs.
Arabs have NOTHING to gain from these events strategically. I expressed that.
“…Arabs have NOTHING to gain from these events strategically. I expressed that.”
Arnon, not all Arabs are angels; some would do things like that if it could advance their cause such as the Salafists that are openly against both Hamas and Fateh and against any form of goverment that isn’t ultra-religious and against any peace of any kind with Israel. We still don’t know who did it and I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that a combination of bad Arabs and bad Israelis were involved.
link to haaretz.com
The extremist Islamist ‘Monotheism and Holy War Group’ has gruesomely murdered an Italian peace activist, Vittorio Arrigoni briefly after kidnapping him. This seems to have been retaliation against Hamas’ detention of two of its leaders a few days ago, even though it was first presented as an attempt to force Hamas to release the organization’s leaders. This shows, more than ever, that Hamas is running into insoluble problems.
link to haaretz.com
Hamas indirectly accused Israel on Friday of engineering the killing of an Italian Palestinian peace activist in Gaza in order to intimidate other foreign activists hoping to sail to Gaza as part of the next flotilla.
“Such an awful crime cannot take place without arrangements between all the parties concerned to keep the blockade imposed on Gaza,” Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar said at a rally held by the group to honor executed Italian activist Vittorio Arrigoni.
Why don’t you ever cite the Ha’aretz articles where extremist Israeli rabbis talk about burning down farms and murdering children? Or better yet, articles where settler pogroms accomplish exactly that?
Who benefits from the murders of Arrigoni, Mer-Khamis and the family in Itamar? Israel. Who benefited from the terror attacks in London, Madrid, Bali and Bombay? Israel. Who benefited from 9/11? Israel. Who benefited from the Holocaust? Israel, big time. I think I see a pattern here.
Hey don’t forget all the nice stuff our local Jewish communities got and get free from the US taxpayers under the Homeland Security Act. You know, all those improvements labeled “security precautions?”
I’m sorry but how does this drivel get accepted on this website…
What pattern is it that you see? That those bloodthirsty Jews benefit everytime something horrible in the world happens…911=J00S?
Give me a break Phil. I know you’ve got your misgivings about Jewish identity and Jewish pride but letting crap like this get published is really just sadistic.
Sarcasm, brothamo sarcasm…
perhaps broth isn’t aware larry writes for jpost ddi.
brethamo, israel’s economy thrives off terrorism. the security industry is very very big business. if you’d like some links i can provide them.
as for the horrible slaughter of that family, the bodies were still warm when bibi and the goi announced they were going to be moving forward on a plan to reinforce itmar. perhaps you are not aware they are clearing land as we speak, stealing from the village below sans one iota of evidence the perps are from there. so i would have to say tripling the size of itmar is …..a benefit? no? it is not pretty but it is the truth.
i agree that is a horrible thing to say that israel benefited from the holocaust but…didn’t they? wasn’t that the justification behind pouring thousands of jews into palestine and ethnically cleansing the natives? or is the pain and suffering of the nakba supposed to be ignore compared to others pain? and the principle of taking or justifying land for pain is actually the same in both cases tho on a much larger scale wrt the holocaust. are we supposed to sit back and not notice that while trauma is occurring israel keeps expanding? and what happened in the years after 9/11 when everyone was in shock and pain not paying attention to little israel? they expanded and added hundreds of thousands of settlers to even more stolen land. it is hard not to notice. once you see the pattern…maybe if you want us to not notice you should tell israel to stop building off others pain.
in fact, before Mer-Khamis’s death there was some talk of netanyahu proposing some new plan. we’re still waiting. or is israel using all this violence as an excuse to not make peace? i agree with you about one thing tho..it is really sadistic. but sadly that doesn’t mean it’s not true.
I’d say Israel’s economy thrives on many other things than terrorism. While yes the occupation keeps a good number of Israelis employed, the main growth of their economy has come from their technological sector and the massive amount of patents and inventions Israelis produce on a yearly basis. That’s another topic though.
If you seriously believe that Israel would murder five of it’s own citizens, execute a foreign national working for peace, and kill an Israeli peace activist, all when evidence points to the contrary, then we really have nothing more to argue over. We’re simply on two different planes of thought.
Juliano’s theater was firebombed countless times and he received many personal threats. All the evidence points to those operating within Gaza. Occams razor.
As for the Holocaust. You may say “benefit”, but I would say “necessitate”. It is true that Israel was founded upon injustice and it is up to Israel to right those wrongs, but saying that Israel benefited from the extermination of six million Jews and 5 million non-Jews seems a strange way to put it.
Annie, if you want a true understanding of Israel’s economy I recommend the book “Start-up Nation” by Dan Senor and Saul Singer.
This would be excellent reading for many of Israel’s neighboring countries too.
dbg, senor is a pr hack. he butchers truth and specialized in false narrative. that is why he was assigned to the coalition gov in iraq )or whatever bremmers gov was called) so we could be force fed stories about schools be painted in iraq and see soldiers giving candy to children. no, i won’t be wasting my time reading him.
DBG,
if you want a true understanding of Israel’s economy I recommend the book “Start-up Nation” by Dan Senor and Saul Singer.
Uhhh. We covered it here when it first came out, and had a good collective laugh at some of the assertions.
Also, Grant Smith takes his thesis apart with some newly released American Govt Documents (declassified 18 months ago) that undermine Señor’s Hatikva hasbara. http://www.irmep.org
brothamo, unless you also consider it drivel, you should read the findings of the 9/11 Commission referring to specific motivations of the 9/11 attack implementers, and as well, refer to Bin Laden’s own early statements. And do you actually believe either Truman or the UN would have recognized the self-proclaimed state of Israel post-Nuremberg if the Shoa had not occurred?
LarryDerfner, I’ll add the fact that you chose this particular reply at this time, on this blog, to the patterns that you choose to disdain.
You obviously maintain that there is out there, threaded throughout “HUMAN” Rights activists and “sympathizers”, a nefarious purpose to villify and single out Israel for opprobrium. I also realize this is the new and ongoing party line. Next, those of us who agitate for Humanity’s cause, will be no doubt reminded that the Robespierre (sp?) was no saint either; or Garibaldi for that matter; much less good old Che Guevarra himself, the poster revolutionary for indigenous rights. Ah, so imperfect he and his rag tag “revolutionaries” were…..
As a seer of patterns, a connector of dots, and a screenwriting hobbiest, I’ve concluded that we are seeing Act III of the Greatest show on earth – call it “Exodus Redux”. Act I was known as ” there are no Palestinian people”, which seamlessly merged into Act II, titled “Where is the Palestinian Ghandi?”. We are now at the start of Act III , tentatively titled, “They are [only] human, and so are we”, in which the “delegitimization” of Israel by [misguided] humanitarians is countered head-on through the brilliant recasting of themes: Judean expansionism morphs into a struggle between two, oh-so-very-conflicting tales of imperfect humanity.
We are, alas, about to witness in this act the unfolding of the heart-rending tragedy of the “Conflicting Narratives”, which goes something like this: if they (Palestinians) are [imperfect] humans and so are we (Israelis), how come they get all the “Human Rights” and we get bupkes?
As a preview, Act IV, already in the works, will address the eternal conundrums “the haves and the have-nots – what does Having mean anyways?”
How’s that for a conspiracy theory?
wow danaa, impressive.
Damn, Danna, your wit is sharp! And soooo 2 the point on that head.
Danaa, I had to laugh reading this. I was sort of thinking the same thing myself about an hour ago. Mine was less literary and thoughtful. Mine was “Look what we have to go through with their violent natures so close to us, the madness, no different than how we were threatened before the Holocaust, WHO can live like this, we need another $20 billion for our security. And the one-state solution is off.”
Larry, check out that Scribd embedded article Lydda linked to above,
Oh hell, here it is:
Lydda Four Eight April 15, 2011 at 12:54 am
from 2009: Israeli-HIT-LIST-Includes-Vittorio-Utopia-Arrigoni
link to scribd.com
This Facebook page has some good comments and links to videos – much of it is in Italian, but definitely not all of it.
link to facebook.com
In re the Max Ajl video link: YouTube advises that “This video is no longer available because the YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated.” What’s up with that?
The horrific video is available in many other places though, like here:
link to youtube.com
I can’t stand to watch it. I hope that video isn’t going to be people’s lasting memory of such a loving and vibrant person.
Kate, (and Danaa, more dots)
I couldn’t stand to watch the Arrigoni video when it was first put up so I just looked at it now.
It stinks like a five-day-old tuna! I wish I’d looked at it before.
You’re telling me that a terrorist group is going to put that much production value into a request for a prisoner swap? Complete with music, an Illustrator template background, an animated gif (the flag), superimposed bouncing perspective frame of the victim, some Ken Burns effects, and a text rollover of their demands (so that an accent can’t be detected)?
I surprised there were no bouncing balls over the text, and some Rockettes.
With a 36-hour deadline hanging over this guy’s head, someone spends three hours minimum at a computer composing this? Because it was done after the guy was kidnapped and obviously beaten up. (well, CS5 does speed things up.)
This dog don’t hunt. You want proof that something is not right, this video does it, and anybody who has ever produced a video knows exactly what I’m talking about.
Umm and why would they put a picture map of GAZA alone in the background? That makes no sense to me. Gaza as a unit would not be their point of reference – Palestine maybe. Anyone else find this odd?
Bijou,
That’s what that was? I thought it was a weird gun. ;-) (I don’t read Arabic.) I was too busy looking at that gif. A lot of work went into creating that flag, then animating it. When the opening shot flipped into the new CS5 opposite rounded corner frame thing on the left, I smelled a rat.
I mean, really.
If you want something for your hostage, you throw him up against the wall, you have him talk and say Save Me, then a kidnapper expresses his demands. Binga-bonga 10 minutes.
You don’t do title frames and a soundtrack.
Does this group that Walid says is so awful run around the Middle East terrorizing people with an iMac, or similar machine that can do video processing?
very interesting. whoever is behind this wants to further isolate Gaza.
i may have to watch the video …
My heart cries for what happened to Vittorio. RIP, brother. May your family and friends find the strength to deal with your loss.
As others here have already hinted at: who benefits from these horrific crimes? I’m sorry I have to say this but this brutal murder has Israeli false flag operation written all over it.
[Earlier Friday, Salafi faction At-Tawheed wa Al-Jihad denied involvement in the abduction and murder of Arrigoni, but said it was "a natural outcome of the policy of the government carried out against the Salafi."]
link to maannews.net
Natural outcome huh? This leaves no doubt in my mind that salafis are behind this vile murder, their “denial” is just an attempt to save off the Palestinians anger at them.
Ddi,
Throughout recorded history, groups that want media attention for their acts will usually claim it, or if they are being accused but didn’t do it, will admit they didn’t yet will use the attention for their own ends. Talk to any real terrorism expert anywhere, and he will tell you the same thing. Start with Brian Michael Jenkins, who is considered the #1 guy in the US on this topic for the past 40 years.
Staving off Palestinian anger does not work in their favor. They would want the Palestinians terrorized, otherwise why do it.
False flag operatives want their identity hidden, not real perps with a cause.
Danaa, my point is not that Israel is singled out unfairly by HR organizations – I think Israel should be singled out to at least some degree because it is the last colonial power in the democratic world, and because it is gets so much financial and political aid from the U.S. My point, instead, is that there are people here who, like Hamas, are blaming Israel for crimes that were almost certainly committed by Palestinians, such as the murders of Arrigoni, Mer-Khamis and the family in Itamar – and that these accusations grow out of what I call ideological insanity. as do the accusations that Israel was behind 9/11 and the Holocaust.
LarryDerfner, could you please share with us what makes you believe that the murders of Arrigoni, Mer-Khamis and the family in Itamar are “almost certainly committed by Palestinians”?
Larry, I realize you were employing a degree of sarcasm here, but, really – drawing a straight line from the killing of Mer-Khamis and Arrigoni all the way to 9/11 and the Holocaust?
I know a little Hyperbole is good for the heart (hasn’t it been proven to lower blood pressure?), but you are resorting to tactics that should be beneath you. Or is it that you have been afflicted with a condition known a CAS (Conspiracy Aversion Syndrome)? So very un-American (and indeed un-Jewish) of you….**
But, let me ask in turn – where is the line between conspiracy plot and old fashioned detective work? all good detectives start out on the basis of a “working hypothesis”, to be modified as more facts come to light, suspects are revealed to have alibis (or not), motivations are sorted through, and opportunities are put through the grinder. Police also employ profilers for a reason, and oftentimes, the best detectives are good profilers as well, which only means that they are good at sorting through the facts of a case in full view of the complexities of the humans involved.
The difference with cases that have political overtones, is that there are serious powers behind the scene who may deliberately seek to thwart the quest for truth. In which event, the facts as well as perception of the facts are subject to ongoing interference. Some of us suspect, for example, that by treating the Itamar killings as a politically motivated rather than a plain crime, many of the facts of the case were/are obscured, suspects may be overlooked, credible witnesses ignored and worst of all, enormous pressure put on target groups of individuals (palestinians) which may very well result in confessions that are, in reality, bogus. Numerous palestinians – Israeli citizens and not – have confessed to all manner of activities, and sentenced to long jail times without given the recourse to true independent investigation and trial. Unfortunately, the majority of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails are, in fact, political prisoners. Just as the black in South Africa were. Under such conditions, when the state treats the law a subservient to political aims, how can you expect anyone to trust any security instrument of the state? where and when does a palestinian suspect find impartiality under the law in Israel?
As for the continuing questioning of the straight story lines of 9/11 – it should be pretty obvious – it’s all about the public perception that all was not told. No need to bring up insanity and ideology. Against a backdrop of so many hidden variables, the fact that one or more parties benefitted (especially the Israel-allied neocons) is bound to continue to raise suspicions. Coincidences are like that….
I noticed BTW that you did not bring up the Kennedy assassination – the penultimate fodder for conspiracy buffs everywhere. As a died-in-the-wool Hamasnick and one who stands accused (if tacitly) of being victim to “ideological insanity”, I protest! Mossad and precursors are most certainly under a cloud for that one too!
____
** a little advise to sufferers of CAS: don’t ever be tempted to visit Lebanon! Walid, the indefatiguable teller of Salafi tales, can tell you all about it – they eat, live and breath conspiracy theories over there, not all of which even have Israel behind them!
Unfortunately for the Israeli hasbara machine, millions of people have learned that Israel’s leaders lie and lie and lie (not to mention steal and steal and steal) with the result that if sometimes Israel is actually telling the truth, few will believe it is the truth. I no longer even take Israel’s statements with a pinch of salt. I just assume they are lies. I am certainly not convinced Palestinians were involved in the settler deaths at Itamar. And if Palestinians actually killed Vittorio, it will be difficult for Israel to convince me and all of Vik’s friends, colleagues and admirers that the killers were not doing Israel’s dirty work for a fee of some kind.
Andre, why do I think Palestinians killed Arregoni? An Al-Qaeda-style Gazan group kidnapped him, threatened to kill him, put out a video that showed him at their mercy, then his body was found hanged in the home of one of the group’s members – that’s why I think it was Palestinians. Mer-Khamis had been threatened by Islamists, he was outraging them – and Israel doesn’t kill anti-occupation theater directors. As for the Itamar murders, I’m afraid Palestinians have brutally murdered children of settlers before, while Israeli agents and settlers haven’t and neither have Thai workers; the only people who want to kill the settlers of Itamar are Palestinians. It’s natural to suspect Israel when a Palestinian military figure is killed; it’s natural to suspect Israel killed Arafat, although I think we have to assume he died of natural causes until proven differently. But Israel doesn’t assassinate theater directors or settler families – and while Israel has killed ISM activists, it happened spontaneously, it might have been out of malice or out of recklessnes, but it was never anything remotely like the killing of Arregoni. Israel goes to those sorts of lengths only against military targets from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, etc. – and these assassinations tend not to be done in partnership with Al-Qaeda-style organizations.
Certain key phrases like “Al-Qaeda-style”, “Jihadi” and “Islamist” have become the hallmark of Orientalist discourse.
Alas, in the real world these descriptions are meaningless.
In intelligence work there is a concept known as an “anchor”. As the term implies, this “anchor” exists as an inseparable part of an agency’s intelligence analysis and decision-making processes.
That is to say that information collected is prioritized based on a a set of beliefs, ideologies, or biases.
In simpler terms, some information is dismissed as it does not conform with this “anchor” while other information is taken into the stream of analysis as it conforms with this “anchor”.
Proverbially, one might call this deficiency a blind spot
And so, intelligence agencies sometimes misread events due to said “anchor”.
For illustration purposes consider this example: The CIA might fail to detect an organization that plans on carrying out a certain act of terrorism because members of that organization are perceived as too….shall we say ….primitive or incapable of performing that feat. It may be thought of as not technologically inclined to carry out that act. And so, the CIA fails not because it hasn’t looked at that organization, but because its biases prevented it from looking at certain aspects.
In conclusion, as you are focusing your sights on “Islamist” this, “Jihadi” that and “Style” this, understand that you are guided by your own biases and tribal indoctrination.
Danaa, blaming Israel for the murders of Arregoni, Mer-Khamis and the family in Itamar is no different from the Israeli far right blaming Shimon Peres for the murder of Rabin. Peres benefitted, he inherited the premiership – so he’s the killer. But this is ideological insanity – the far right doesn’t want to be be tainted by the Rabin assassination, which was carried out by one of theirs, so they convince themselves it was done by the opposing ideological camp, which was led by Peres. It’s no different when pro-Palestinian people blame Israel for Arregoni’s death. In the cases of Mer-Khamis and the family in Itamar, it’s not as conclusive that the killers were Palestinians, but it’s plenty obvious.
Obvious? I don’t see it as obvious at all. Itamar boasts nobody can get in or out. Why do you not think it a distinct possibility it could have been a suicide/murder situation. Even now Haaretz has an article about a family murder/suicide that just happened inside Israel. And recently a father in Israel murdered his three children. If this were anywhere other than Palestine the family would be looked at first. Israel will do anything it can to pin the killing of this settler family on Palestinians. It’s already clear it is torturing women as well as men, trashing houses, terrorizing hundreds of innocent Palestinian villagers. Settlers walk and drive around Palestine all the time, so there would be plenty of opportunity for Palestinians to murder them if they wanted to. They don’t murder them. So I’ll need some pretty strong proof, which doesn’t mean accusations by IDF against people who have been tortured into making confessions, before I will believe it was anything other than an inside job, by the father or a fellow settler, or possibly a foreign worker. It’s not as easy to fool us as it used to be.
mariapalestina- Do you really think that Udi Fogel murdered his family and then slit his own throat? Wouldn’t he have waited for his oldest daughter to come home first rather than have her discover them all? But you don’t believe it. You are just floating ideas because you think it helps your cause.
WJ, the (too) easy answer is that a man who is prepared to kill his own family is not sane enough to wait. But I would not want to base a case on that.
But mp’s main point is that there is no evidence that a Palestinian committed the murder, and strong reason to think that it was impossible for a Palestinian to have committed the murder.
Go back to logic school.
Larry, I am not at the point of blaming anyone since I am not privvy to all the facts. What I did, is raise doubts about perpetrators, their motivations and who may be behind them. Israel does not, as you know, share what it knows freely, and I don’t expect Hamas will. However, I also raised the possibility that in its eagerness to counter what it sees as “delegitimization” Israel is willing to go to new extremes.
The question I raised in particular has to do with a CLUSTER of events, all pointing to Israel as the primary beneficiary. You may not be cynical enough to believe it, but I think that Israel is capable of extreme ruthlessness if it feels in any way endangered. The lives of some peace activist or a partly-Jewish theatre director in Palestine mean very little to Israel’s security establishment, and I doubt the Israeli public in general cares a hoot about their noble purpose in what they do. Mer-Khamis was subjected to threats from the Israeli side more so than from some islamist zealots. If number and frequency of threats is the criterion, many more people on the extremist settler and israeli right wing ethnic purity/security side would wish him ill. And unlike most Palestinians, the people on the Israeli side have more means, opportunity and cover on their end.
As for Itamar, it’s the outright pogroms, punitive actions and persecution of the villagers of Awarta that make me more suspicious than anything. If the investigators of Israel really had anything on anyone in that village, and if the politics of that case was not what it is, there wouldn’t need to be the destruction, mass arrests and land confiscations. Now we are hearing that a PA security person (Dayton trained!) was arrested… though with all the gag orders in place, no-one know for sure in what connection.
I also do suggest that you read more about what the salafis were up to in Lebanon and who paid them to take on the activities they did in the refugee camp there. That is already all a matter of record. People, extremists and otherwise can be bought and/or manipulated into actions. You cannot explain why, for example, the killers of Arrigoni did not even wait for the expiration of their own deadline.
Anyway, at this point, if you think I am speculating, well, frankly, so are you. The difference between us is that you cannot process (at least not yet) just how ruthless some of the powers claiming to be on your side are. The Palestinians – they know of course, what pogroms are like – on their bodies and in their homes they know. But I bet you wouldn’t even call them pogroms. For you they’ll remain “security operations”, and the main arguments will be over strategic goals and effective tactics.
I’d be interested in seeing a list of some settler children brutally murdered by Palestinians. I’m sure you can provide such a list.
I’m sure if you’re really interested you can find such a list with a few mouse-clicks. But why only “settler children”? Plenty of Israeli children were murdered, not necessarily settlers.
Yes, I could use my mouse, though it would take some time to find reports of murdered Israeli children when there are ten or twenty times as many murdered Palestinian children cluttering up the search engines.
But Larry specifically mentioned settler children murdered by Palestinians, so I’d really like to have him back up his statement with facts. If you want to do it for him, go ahead.
Imagine if you are a simple Palestinian family, living in the small village of Awarta. Imagine the lengths (or depths) to which Israel goes in its frenzy over the deaths at Itamar. With nothing to lead them to Awarta, other than the fact it is the closest village to the settlement, this is what Israel does:
“…volunteers from the Jordan Valley Solidarity, with other internationals and Israeli activists, visited Al Aqaba village where some homes and roads were demolished yesterday. Neighbors from Al Aqba told the activists some of their histories about demolitions and lands grab. Later the volunteers visited the mayor of the village where there is a population of 400 inhabitants. The major is a disabled person in a wheel chair, because he received three shots from an Israeli soldier. The mayor confirmed that all of the buildings and any sort of built thing on the surface of Al Aqaba, except 6 houses, have demolition orders. That means schools, hospital, clinic, kindergarten, roads, streets, pillars [?], shelters, pens and the mosque. Everything. ”
Perhaps someone, maybe Larry (who has not yet supplied the list of settler children brutally murdered by Palestinians) can explain how this kind of thuggery can be accepted from a supposed democracy. I would sincerely like to understand the mentality of people who behave in this fashion, and only a zionist can explain the rationale.
About the murders of children of settlers, off the top of my head, it happened in the same Itamar settlement in 2002 – the children were shot at point blank range – and the same year in Tekoa, when two boys about 11 or 12 went wandering outside the settlement one day, were caught by some Palestinians and stoned to death.
Danaa, I don’t justify what the IDF is doing in Awarta as a security operation, but neither would I call it a pogrom because the villagers are not being slaughtered. Instead, I’d call it wholesale destruction, maybe an army riot – whatever, it’s terrible. mariapalestina, why are Israelis indifferent? Israelis will accept anything the army does as a just response to whatever any Palestinian might or might not have done. They’re less sanguine about settler attacks, but the army can do anything.
Larry, i would very, very interested in a detailed look at the Itamar murder in context. The most interesting statement about the murder of Fogel’s was his brother’s as reported in Haaretz. Does he live in the settlement too? What did the Fogel’s think about the Palestinians, did they share the general view. What is that general view? What is the history of the settlement, the history of it’s interaction or non-interaction with the Palestinians living nearby?
How many dead over the decades on both sides? To what settlement belonged the settler that killed a Palestinian and didn’t even have to show up at court? Itamar?
What about the day and night surveillance and security. Why didn’t it work?
Would it be difficult to publish something in Israel that humanizes the Fogel family–in spite of all-beyond the simple utilization of their murder? If I was already able to read Hebrew would I find a deeper analysis of the story in context?
Larry, you still haven’t answered Andre on what made you think that the Palestinians were responsible for all the current killings. Mariapalestina or Danaa may have insinuated that there could be Israeli hands in the various murders being discussed here because of the connected dots, but back in March in your JP article on the Itamar massacre, you more than insinuated about Palestinian involvement in it. You subliminally condemned the whole of the Palestinian collectivity in asserting that they possessed a “savage streak” and in a subtle way, accused them of the savage Itamar killings.
Although the term “savage streak” was mentioned to you only once by an interviewed Palestinian about fellow Palestinians, you picked up on it and made it appear as a consensus among all Palestinians on what they felt about themselves by viciously repeating it 6 times in your article to drill it into the minds of your readers.
You made another erroneous wholesale statement about the Palestinians in spite of the “some”: “After the killings, some people in the Gaza town of Rafah handed out sweets…” You didn’t elaborate on h0w many people “some” really constituted and what percentage of the 1.5 million Gazans these people represented but nonetheless still chose to insert it into your article for some unholy reason.
Your concluding statement: “Until the Palestinians acknowledge the savage streak in their society-even if only to themselves-and resolve to root it out, then, if history is a guide, there will be more abominations done in their name.” I call that playing with your readers’ minds in insinuating that they committed the abomination in Itamar and it puts you in the same Mondo hasbarist group.
Now you are starting to skate away from your JP position by talking about your noble army being on a “security mission” and out of control in Awarta; not very convincing. At least Danaa and mariapalestina didn’t beat about the bush.
For a sampling of Larry’s fair reporting on Palestinians:
link to jpost.com
I hope I can be forgiven if I find my own experience at the hands of a half dozen or more armed Itamar thugs colors my perspective. Having been attacked and savagely beaten by a gang from Itamar while I was helping a handful of women and children harvest their olives in the nearby village of Yanoun, I have to agree with those who have said the settlers there are a particularly nasty lot. After beating me, these thugs, young enough to be my grandsons, robbed me of everything I had, leaving me with no money, passport, plane ticket, credit cards, camera, jacket — even my cane after they beat me with it. Police at Ariel who “investigated” said they knew who these guys were; it appeared they were regular troublemakers who had participated in weeks of night raids on the villagers which had been successful in that every last resident of the village had fled in fear. Only when Israeli activists had promised to protect the villagers if they returned had a few families agreed to go home. The village generator had been smashed, the well poisoned, by settlers from Itamar.
yes, their reputation proceeded this slaughter event. i’m sorry for what happened to you mariapalestina. i recall you telling us about your experience before.
Larry, about pogroms:
The word does not imply wholesale slaughter necessarily, only wanton and deliberate destruction of property, extreme physical harassment of residents, occasionally exile accompanied by appropriation of land and stealing of possesions. Outright killings may or may not be involved.
Many of the pogroms perpetrated on shtetls in Poland and Russia back in the 18th and 19th century involved only few actual deaths. Some pogroms were, of course, notoriously horrific, but those were less common. The word “pogrom” in common usage implies extreme harassment of civilian residents of particular ethnicity, usually condoned by local authorities (who may, for example, participate by turning a blind eye to the goings on) and sometimes carried out outright by regime supported militia (such as Coassacks or “brown shirts”) typically with active assistance by locals which may include peasants, or the equivalent of settlers.
As an example, the events detailed inj “Fiddler on the roof” are often referred to as “pogrom”, though no one actually dies (at least not in the play).
What was done in Awarta is by all accounts a pogrom, just as the attacks on gypsies in Europe are so described. In the case of Awarta, the pogrom can be said to have been precipitated by the equivalent of the blood libels of old. If you recall from the Israeli-sanctioned history books, oftentimes, the pretext for a pogrom was a killing, which was then seized upon as an excuse to blame the local Jews, whose possessions and presumed “wealth” were coveted, and who were resented for being of different religion/ethnicity/custom. The blood libels often resulted in violent raids on the nearest jewish village, which were typically pillaged, sometimes with attendant atrocities, sometimes, with “just” savage beatings and maybe a few bogus arrests, but lots of destruction.
I dare you to point out the difference between some of those pogroms of old and what was done to the villagers of Awarta.
Besides, quibbling about the meaning of words such as “pogroms”, “savagery”, “terrorism” and “ethnic cleansing” is an Israeli specialty. They (as in the establishment including many journalists and media personalities) have raised it to an art form. I urge you not to partake in this dubious pleasure, and just let words be what they are, so we can address what they are meant to convey.
thank you danaa
Danaa is right. The number of people actually killed in “pogroms” was surprisingly small. But the pogroms prompted widespread terror — not least because the Russian authorities stood by and did nothing. Much as I imagine the villagers of Awarta feel today.
Walid, when infants get their throats slit, when 12 year old boys are stoned to a pulp, when a festive crowd gathers in Ramallah after the lynching of two soldiers who took a wrong turn, when the news of a bus bombing is greeted with the passing out of candy – this does not mean that the Palestinian nation is savage, but it does mean that the Palestinian nation has its savage streak.
larry, do you really believe this ‘passing out candy’ line? and what of the osenko slaughter the year before (stabbed infant), does this speak for israeli society? do they have a savage streak because of the oshenkos? and let us please not forget the perps have not been apprehended wrt the fogels. i’m not familiar w/the other two incidents so i can’t speak on them but the ‘passing out candy’ allegation is a lie. in fact the day the photo came out on some photos of the day msm site i clicked on the next image and the next and they were all of a unity rally in gaza that had been going on since the day before. isn’t it more likely whatever was passed out was as a part of that rally and did the photographer even speak arabic?
The Israeli “savage streak” seems stronger – and socially acceptable – in Israel, re the picnickers cheering on bombs shredding homes and bodies during Op Cast Lead. Or re the violence perpetrated on Palestinians of the West Bank which goes unpunished and even celebrated as more land becomes available for settlement as a direct result of it. Your “savage streak” is bigger than their “savage streak” Mr Derfner.
the settlers price tag actions, and we’ve seen them on tape…to me this is savage. but i wouldn’t attribute it to the entire israeli society in fact i think they are afraid of it which is why they do not confront or confine them (plus they greatly appreciate their fanatics expanding their state for them). the rabbi wolpe on army radio less than a week before the fogel slaughter is a perfect example of an out of control situation, effectively threatening the govenment w/mass army insurrection if they do not get their way, incitement ‘jews against jews’ and threats to attack idf disbanding illegal outposts. and the govenment doesn’t seem to have any ways of dealing w/this crazy rabbi talk.
but the olive trees, the entering of villages, last week it was reported a group of settlers descended on a kindergarten of WB kids. and they had dogs. these are 5 year olds. it’s crazy.
but mostly these guys are from brooklyn, they go to israel and let their freak flags fly feeling empowered by god or something. it’s insane.
I only used the term collectively in response to Mr Derfner’s similar usage – I’m sure he doesn’t appreciate his society being tarred in a collective way, so he shouldn’t do it! Especially when Israeli actions are considerably and consistently more egregious.
of course bumblebee. i saw your quote marks and i think everyone here knows where the phrase came from.
Annie, I wrote in the JPost that Palestinians overwhelmingly opposed the Itamar murders, that they were embarrassed by them. There may have been one guy in Gaza passing out candy over the murders, or he may have been passing out candy for the sake of unity – either way, the passing out of candy did not by any means represent the Palestinian reaction to Itamar. What I wrote just now is that the passing out of candy was common after bus bombings, and that’s true.
thanks for this explanation. ‘common’ implies it is a usual activity. do you mean after recent school bus bombing they passed out candy? do you mean after the phone booth bombing in jerusalem no palestinian faction took credit for they passed out candy?
what do you think of those photos of picnicing israelis watching the gaza massacre? do you think it represented a savage streak in israeli society? and what of those idf t shirt with the pregnant woman on the front, does this represent a savage streak in israeli society?
i am curious if there is anything you can think of that represents a savage streak in israeli society or is the term ‘savage’ something you reserve for non jews or palestinians?
are israelis savages too?
About the Oshenko (?) child killings, that was the act of one savage individual, and every Israeli sees the killer as a satanic figure, and nobody thinks to blame the killings on anything or anybody but the killer. There’s a difference between an individual crime and a political crime, a crime committed on behalf of a cause.
Your “savage streak” comments are a clear indicator if there ever was one that your biases have clouded your judgment on several issues.
Walid’s response — April 16, 2011 at 8:27 am — above illustrates what you are. With friends like you, the Palestinians don’t need enemies.
And as an Israeli born and raised, as someone who has lived and worked with Palestinians, I am reminded once again of the racist orientalist streak within Zionism and within Judaism.
Oshenko (?) child killings, that was the act of one savage individual…. nobody thinks to blame the killings on anything or anybody but the killer. There’s a difference between an individual crime and a political crime, a crime committed on behalf of a cause.
larry, i’m a little baffled how you’ve determined the fogel family slaughter is a political crime? i thought there was a gag order on this case. what do you know the rest of us do not.
the oshenko killings were from one crazy upset over employee/boss issues. i presume you have completely eliminated the possibility of the thai workers. i guess i am not comprehending how you can characterize your determination to use labels like ‘political crime’ and ‘behalf of a cause’ without noticing you’re basing your judgment on thus far unfounded conjecture.
you do realize do you not that the motive of ‘on behalf of a cause’ applies equally to israelis as well as palestinians? clearly the cause of itmar on the national historic map as declared by netanyahu is a ’cause’ and the slaughter absolutely immediately facilitated that. so if we are looking at causes what separates you from recognizing a settler cause vs a palestinian cause (and any idiot can determine this crime could never facilitate a materialization of that cause contrary to the startling immediacy of the goi granting permits on the very same day) besides ethnic bias (otherwise known as racism).
i don’t know who did it. it very well could have been palestinians but i don’t see the upside for them whereas the upside for settlers is tripling the size of their village in the crucial coveted area of the burial spot of biblical sons (itmar’s namesake) which are in the village. i posted the video of the mayor describing the burial spot in the village right below them if you’d like me to dig it up.
so why don’t you tell us how the settlers were planning to acquire that village land and why the sacrifice of this family for The flourishing State of Judea is so incomprehensible given the mentality of some of these freaks.
what’s the difference between my speculation and yours? at the very least you could acknowledge there is simply no compelling evidence any palestinian ’cause’ could possibly be realized thru this crime which is in direct opposition to the evidence of it serving an israeli cause.
just saying.
Check out the latest pot on Richard Silverstein’ blog. Some arrests/development in the Itamar murders, that could point to motives more prosaic than political. With the gag order in place, more could not be aid, I suppose, but kudos to Richard for digging his teeth into the thick fog surrounding the case.
Silverstein also describes the claim that Israel is responsible for Arrigoni’s murder as “genuinely a stupid comment”, but I’m guessing you didn’t want people to read that bit.
link to richardsilverstein.com
lest anyone think my suggestions zionists would never kill another jews for the benefit of their state think again:
yossi gurvitz 4/16/2011 The Cruelty of Zionism.
I equate the murders at Itamar with Baruch Goldstein’s murders in Hebron. In each case, the cause was to kill any living member of the “other side” who could be killed. You could say these were two acts of genocide in miniature. The cause in Itamar and in Hebron 1994 was genocide. As far as who did the Itamar murders, I assume it was Palestinians in the exact same way I assume it’s settlers who cut down Palestinian olive trees – even though the settlers deny it and say Palestinians did it and blamed it on them.
This is a good indictment — if anyone ever needed one — of your self-styled objectivity and familiarity with the subject matter. Keep posting, you are doing a good job of putting the noose around your own neck. It’s worse than Goldstone’s op-ed. It’s the mark of desperation.
Annie, I would say Israelis have an ugly streak and a brutal streak, which your examples illustrate. Is that better or worse than a savage streak? I don’t know.
The “Israeli dove” strikes again for he “don’t know” whether “savage” is worse than “ugly” or “brutal”.
Indeed, that “dove” has the intellectual integrity of a pigeon.
I would say Israelis have an ugly streak and a brutal streak, which your examples illustrate. Is that better or worse than a savage streak? I don’t know.
i think you do know larry otherwise you wouldn’t be using it selectively. try writing it . try writing israelis have a savage steak or better yet try saying jews have a savage streak and then ask me if it is better or it is worse. frankly i can’t imagine as reporter you would allow that phrase to slip from your keyboard under your name even buried in a comment thread whereas you could publish it about palestinians in a major publication.
so i think you know damn well calling people savage is different than either ugly or brutal. in fact brutal is bragging territory for some of israel’s politicians.
You’re absolutely right: he does know damn well that what you say is true. I can forgive James Frazer for using the word so freely in the Golden Bough – it was a common term of Victorian imperialism and Frazer was not being entirely racist but was arguing that something of the early human condition survives in all of us. Which it does, without exception of race or country.
You really think that “ugly” and “brutal” go down so much easier than “savage”? I don’t.
That is not surprising given the highly questionable judgment you have exhibited in this thread, repeatedly.
So, besides imposing onto others which words and terminology they should use, what do you do? Besides peddling euphemisms that revise reality — which the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs likes to propagate — what do you?
“You really think that “ugly” and “brutal” go down so much easier than “savage”? I don’t.”
It depends on whether you use the words interchangeably. I’d take your word for it if you said you use them that way–that you’d be just as willing to say that Israelis have a “savage” streak and sometimes Palestinians act in an ugly and brutal fashion and didn’t mean anything racist by it. Still, you ought to be aware that the word “savage” has a history that is associated with colonialist arrogance (look at Gellian in this thread for an example of that kind of thinking) and you should be a little more careful what words you use.
On the other hand, if you wouldn’t use the term “savage streak” to describe the Israelis, then you’ve got a racism problem.
donald, larry has every opportunity to say israelis have a savage streak but thus far he has not.
i dare you larry, say israelis have a savage streak or say jews have one.
I don’t think Israelis or Jews have a savage streak. I think of savagery as primitive, lustful, blood-and-guts violence against the most helpless victims, notably children. Such acts by Palestinians against Israelis have been very rare, but they’ve happened. I don’t think there have been such acts by Israelis against Palestinians. But again, Israelis can and do kill Palestinians with callousness and maliciousness, they can and do brutalize them. Now, Annie, I dare you to tell me what you think are the worst things about Israelis AND about Palestinians.
” I think of savagery as primitive, lustful, blood-and-guts violence against the most helpless victims, notably children. Such acts by Palestinians against Israelis have been very rare, but they’ve happened. I don’t think there have been such acts by Israelis against Palestinians. But again, Israelis can and do kill Palestinians with callousness and maliciousness, they can and do brutalize them. ”
Haven’t IDF soldiers shot children in cold blood? Don’t settlers engage in sadistic behavior sometimes? This isn’t savage? We’re just talking about stylistic differences here, it seems to me, not moral distinctions, but since you’re putting an emphasis on your choice of words I have to wonder if you think Israelis are better people than Palestinians. People in a Western middle class society like to think of themselves as civilized, above the savages (I guess we can use that word too) and so they think that when they kill people they do it in self defense or at least they regret it (“shooting and crying” is the term). And it’s just a classic pattern for the colonial to see the natives as more primitive, bloodthirsty, savage.
I also don’t think the impulse that leads to take chairs to watch the bombardment of Gaza are fundamentally different from people who cheer for the slaughter of children.
Also, to be honest, I think that living next to a society that looked down its nose at me and my culture, that stole my land, oppressed my people, caused most of the civilian deaths in the conflict–well, it might fill me with hatred and I might cheer for some pretty awful things. That could be a Native American looking at whites, or a South African black or Kenyan looking at whites, or an Algerian looking at the French in 1955, or a Palestinian looking at the Israelis. It’s human nature. It’s not noble–it’s a mixture of justified moral outrage with something darker that we all have within us. But by all means make a distinction between yourselves and the people you have under your boot. Maybe you are too immersed in the situation to see how it has effected your own mind–I couldn’t say. I remember right after 9/11 “civilized” Americans that I knew in real life expressing some really vicious desires, some of them aimed at people (in Iraq, for instance) who had nothing to do with 9/11. But then, maybe Americans are savages too.
I don’t think Israelis or Jews have a savage streak. I think of savagery as primitive, lustful, blood-and-guts violence against the most helpless victims, notably children
i’d appreciate you describing to me the un-savage way to carry out what the king’s torah advocates
please read the footnotes on pg 276. it says something about you larry that the savagery of palestinians rolls out of your mind and into print for all the world to read but you can’t seem to comprehend any violence of israelis or jews qualify for the same description. it’s bizarre frankly. i suppose that child stabbed to death by oshenko somehow does not qualify as ‘primitive, lustful, blood-and-guts violence against a most helpless victims’ because..he was israeli? when you watch idf boys (on film) pounding rocks into peoples bodies that does not qualify as primitive either. and how is it you can get inside the minds of a palestinian enough to know their violence may be ‘lustful’. this whole ‘primitive’ thing is just weird.
Now, Annie, I dare you to tell me what you think are the worst things about Israelis AND about Palestinians.
i would never categorize a ‘worst category’ for either israelis, palestinians or any ethnicity because i don’t think ethnicities have collective traits. there are many israelis i admire greatly and have never encountered a bad quality in them so how could i find a ‘worst’ one. but regarding people in general i think the worst quality about us is our capacity to hate.
perhaps you have to be a little more specific about what it is you are fishing for. it is you who use this ‘savage’ definition, not me. i feel no need to lavish my ideological enemies w/flaw attributed to inner motive like ‘lustful’ violence. there are definitely policies i find sadistic which in itself is a ‘primitive’ instinct i suppose but i’m just not inclined to think of any people as ‘savage’, that is your shtick.
First of all, I sure as hell consider the Oshenko killings savage – but, like I said, that was a crime that every Israeli despises and no Israeli blames on the “enemy,” whereas the Itamar killings, according to one very, very reputable poll, was supported by 32% of Palestinians, and nearly 100% of them blamed the killings on the enemy. So much for that. But what I’m getting at by asking you to tell me the worst things about Israelis AND Palestinians is that you, and not only you, of course, seem to view the Israeli-Palestinian conflict along the lines of the movie Avatar – the stronger side is evil and the weaker side is pure and innocent. And one way you maintain that view is by blaming the stronger side not only for its own crimes, but also for the crimes committed, or obviously committed, by the weaker side. You say you don’t know who killed Arregoni, Mer-Khamis and the family in Itamar, but all your conjectures go in one direction – that Israel did it. So even when Palestinians are obviously the perpetrators, they become, for you, that much more the victims while Israel becomes that much more the perpetrator. BTW, if Palestinians are arrested for these crimes, will you exonerate Israel for them? I truly doubt it. So if you say you don’t have an Avatar prism for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I dare you to prove it – you go on and on about Israel’s horrible sins and crimes (which I agree are legion), so now please describe some of the Palestinians’ horrible sins and crimes.
“So even when Palestinians are obviously the perpetrators…”
Obvious to whom? Not to me. Not to a lot of people. Do you have some sort of proof? Or maybe you use a crystal ball?
“If Palestinians are arrested for these crimes, will you exonerate Israel for them?”
Probably not. I’m eager to see just who they have fingered; then I’ll let you know.
, I sure as hell consider the Oshenko killings savage – but, like I said, that was a crime that every Israeli despises
ok, so let me get this straight..although it was carried out by an israeli it does not represent a ‘strain’ within the community. whereas ” acts by palestinians ….have been very rare, but they’ve happened.” qualify as ‘savage strain’. okkkkayyy. and somehow this ‘savagery’ is only applied towards politically motivated crime?
and i noticed you did not reference my deir yassin link. why is that? do you just refute the rape and gruesome descriptions by the red cross and chalk them up to anti semitic descriptions or does it not qualify as a ‘strain’ or just not enough evidence of blood-and-guts violence against the most helpless victims, notably children . you do realize they murdered children. why did you not address it? i only picked one massacre.
you….. seem to view the Israeli-Palestinian conflict along the lines of the movie Avatar – the stronger side is evil and the weaker side is pure and innocent.
y’know larry, i am not afraid of you and i consider myself an honest person. i also do not shy away from either confrontation or difficult questions. but before i address this allegation of yours i would like you to please present some copy/pasting of my text to demonstrate this allegation of yours. thanks!
when Palestinians are obviously the perpetrators, they become, for you, that much more the victims while Israel becomes that much more the perpetrator.
they are not obviously the perpetrators. i would like to remind you i have already addressed this, you completely ignored it.
motive larry. if a woman was murdered and the beneficiary was her husband and he stood to inherit millions would any prosecutor not look at him because they were married? no. they always look at motive even in the crime novels.
if Palestinians are arrested for these crimes, will you exonerate Israel for them?
i’m afraid it’s going to take more than an arrest for me to exonerate israel. here in the land of the free and the home of the brave we have this quaint notion of innocent until proven guilty and i’m afraid israel’s accusations do not meet my criteria for ‘proof’.
also, did you know israel has been known to hold peoples children til they confess? or torture people for confessions? it’s an occupation larry, there is no jury of ones peers. there is no equal justice under the law. it is an apartheid government.
but, all that aside yes absolutely i will exonerate israel for the crime if they didn’t do it but i will not exonerate them for the collective punishment of a whole town for over a month. not unless you can point to any incident when israel took the same measure in a jewish israel town. it’s gross.
So if you say you don’t have an Avatar prism for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I dare you to prove it – you go on and on about Israel’s horrible sins and crimes (which I agree are legion), so now please describe some of the Palestinians’ horrible sins and crimes.
like i said, just produce some evidence of your allegations (the stronger side is evil and the weaker side is pure and innocent) and i will comply. otherwise you might have to find someone else for your dog and pony show.
(btw, i do remember arguing israelis were not evil (right here and not that long ago in fact), so you may have a hard time establishing this little factoid of yours..but good luck!)
I think of savagery as primitive, lustful, blood-and-guts violence against the most helpless victims, notably children. Such acts by Palestinians against Israelis have been very rare, but they’ve happened. I don’t think there have been such acts by Israelis against Palestinians.
Surely you jest. What planet are you living on?
bijou-
Isn’t he (supposedly) a journalist?
That means he’s got a delete button, which, when he uses it, means whatever he doesn’t like didn’t really happen. Cartoon two dimensional Israel.
Larry, we can go on forever about this, but you play dirty pool with your keyboard.
It’s true your article contained a dozen or so seemingly complimentary allusions to Palestinians, but in practically every one, they were prefaced by a poisoned attribute about them. Here’s one sample of your torpedos to which you had attached a bouquet of roses:
“Before going into the moral cowardice of the Palestinians’ reaction, I want to emphasize that far from all evidence, they do deplore it, with a few exceptions”.
In another in which you churned out the worst kind of condescending feelings towards fellow human beings, you wrote:
“They are not the moral creatures that so many Israelis consider them to be. If you actually talk to Palestinians, you see that they’re as human as anyone else, they know the difference between right and wrong, and they know that stabbing children to death, any children, is the worst abomination”
Your JPost article is filled with stuff like that. I understand your rage at what happened at Itamar but in addition to your backhanded compliments about them you are unjustly taking out this rage on all the Palestinian people with that article.
What is the deal? I blame the Israeli people for moral cowardice about every week – I happen to think the Palestinians showed moral cowardice by blaming the Itamar murders on the occupation. Again, they are not angels, and they are not exempt from moral responsibility.
I blame the Israeli people for moral cowardice about every week – I happen to think the Palestinians showed moral cowardice by blaming the Itamar murders on the occupation
hmm, so you think Palestinians showed moral cowardice by blaming the Itamar murders on the occupation and do you consider israelis who blame palestinians for the fogel murder moral cowards too?
is everyone who blames anyone on the murders moral cowards becuase we don’t know who killed them? are the idf moral cowards by carry out their collective punishment pogrom on awarta? btw i am curious if israel rounded up 1000 israelis in their investigation of the osheko slaughter? NOT!
annie,
He’s built his entire argument on quicksand. He has already concluded that Palestinians committed the murder without a shred of evidence. Par for the course for the propagandists who work at the Jerusalem Post.
Just remember Alan Colmes’s function on Hannity & Colmes. He was there to provide the veneer of Fair and Balanced news.
i just find it perplexing he doesn’t see the hypocrisy behind calling palestinians moral cowards for blaming israelis for the murder while he himself blames palestinians which implies by his own standards he’s a moral coward. nuts.
i think it is common nature to assume ones enemy did it. but, i think the wise thing to do is look at evidence and motive. thus far larry has not addressed my motive post. he seems to think palestinians have more of a political opportunity or agenda here than israelis which is absurd.
zionists have a history of sacrificing their own for the cause.
Danaa, there’s another reason why the IDF violence in Awarta shouldn’t be called a pogrom – the pogroms were committed against a people, the Jews, who did not use violence against Russians or Poles. The pogroms were a feature of a completely one-way war against a harmless minority. The Israelis and Palestinians have been killing each other’s civilians for a century as part of an armed national struggle, and Awarta is part of that.
That’s a selective and unscholarly reading of history.
Israel is a colonial project in the Middle East and the Palestinians had no say in their own destiny. The geographic domain that is Palestine was invaded and occupied by Zionists from Europe. To deny that is to deny history.
The violence was brought onto the Palestinians by the Zionist movement. It’s akin to driving three hours to a forest wherein a bear cave is located so as to remove the bear and kill him. Then when the bear fights back, the attacker proclaims: “The violence has been going on for a while, we are both guilty”.
Nice, Avi.
Larry, I take major exception to this pogrom pilpul (just what I recommended against). You seem to be saying that pogroms happen only to Jews. Not gypsies I guess either. In other words, like the holocaust, it’s a word reserved for “bad things that only happen to Jews”.
A far as fighting back against the Russians or the Poles, the Jews of those centuries had no means to fight back any more than any other peasants or common people. Who is to say they wouldn’t if they thought for a moment they could “get away” with it? arms, you know, were not universally available, and the concept of ordinary people organizing into fighting unit was largely absent from the consciousness of those days. When villagers anywhere were persecuted and wanted redress against a powerful overlord, they had to find an armed protector, like some errant “knight” who, more often than not turned out to not be exactly cased in “shining armor”.
As Avi says, your reading of history is highly selective, but here’s another thought for you. Eventually, some Jews in Russia did fight back – through communism. Much as other peasants and ordinary people did who wanted to overthrow the oppressive tzar imposed system.
The problem with the way they teach Jewish history in Israel is that it is rarely in context. Exceptions noted, but for the most part it’s an unrelenting tale of persecution singling out the jews, as if others around them did not suffer much the same sort of fate, typically for similar reasons.
The contrast you draw with the people of Awarta is truly specious. Those villagers were not terrorized because of “some long simmering armed conflict”. They were not armed and seemingly had hardly any extremists among them. Just plain villagers committed to living in peace in their village as they always had. Of course, the good people of Itamar had other plans, and carried out attacks against them several times in the past. Brutal ones. So the good israeli army assumed the villagers of Awarta wanted revenge. Why? because they would in their place.
Please put on your more objective thinking cap (assuming you keep one around) and see it for what it was: a blood libel resulting in a pogrom, with subsequent land confiscation and persecution. A pogrom by any other name, if we can forget the pilpul for just a moment.
No, Israeli attacks on Palestinians cannot be equated with anti-Semitic violence, any more than Palestinian bus bombings can be. Awarta, like Palestinian acts of violence against Israeli civilians, are part of a century-long struggle between two nations fighting each other for territory and power. In the pogroms, as in the past history of racist violence in America, one side was always the victim, the other side always the victimizer. That’s the not Israeli-Palestinian story, and you can’t isolate either Awarta or a Palestinian bombing and make that comparison.
It’s unfortunate that you seem unable to comprehend the simple fact that you cannot rewrite history, especially one that which several Israeli historians and scholars agree upon, including Oren Yiftachel, Yehuda Shenhav, Ilan Pappe and even the recently-turned-fascist Benny Morris.
Your selective perception of the facts is nothing new, however. I welcome your flailing desperate efforts as you try in a last ditch attempt to save the sinking ship that is Zionist Israel.
The world needs to be exposed to the morally and intellectually bankrupt arguments that Zionism and Zionists peddle. So, post more. Your self-incriminating comments will come in handy down the proverbial road.
“No, Israeli attacks on Palestinians cannot be equated with anti-Semitic violence, any more than Palestinian bus bombings can be. ”
“In the pogroms, as in the past history of racist violence in America, one side was always the victim, the other side always the victimizer. ”
Wrong about America. There was the Nat Turner revolt, for instance, in which black slaves rose up and murdered white women and children before the revolt was crushed. The wars against Native Americans were, in the big picture, acts of ethnic cleansing (and in the most extreme cases, genocide) of whites against the Native Americans, but atrocities were committed by both sides. What piotr said below is very much to the point and I’ll just quote it here–
“Clearly, the word is applicable whenever the affected people are defenseless, regardless whether OTHER members of the same nationality have means of defense or not. So if Kyrgyz massacre a local Uzbek minority, this is a pogrom regardless if Uzbeks elsewhere could or would do the same to Kyrgyz.”
I assume there was simply no good prospect for the Jewish victims of Russian pogroms to fight back, or they might have done the same. To the extent that any joined revolutionary organizations, they did fight back, though not in a way that turned out well.
You don’t see the fundamental moral difference between a war where both sides launch armed attacks – such as the settlers and natives in America, or the Israelis and Arabs – and pure oppression, where one side attacks and the other is attacked – such the Russians/Poles against the Jews, and the whites against the blacks in America? And to make your case that Awarta is a pogrom, are you really willing to invoke the Nat Turner revolt to show that whites vs. blacks in America was some sort of “clash”? And, further to make your case, to say that the pogroms weren’t so different from war because, after all, the Jews would have fought back if they’d had the power? How about examining the decency of your own beliefs?
Larry:
Are you actually suggesting that what is happening between the Israelis and the Palestinians is a war? Do you think the massacres in Gaza in December 08 and January 09 were a war? Israel is a brutal occupier, the only side allowed to have tanks, Apache helicopters, F-16 fighter planes, Naval gunboats. There is no war, Larry. There is an occupying force and there is a legitimate resistance to occupation. And as if the occupation weren’t bad enough, we have over half a million Jews living illegally in colonies in Palestine. How would you feel if tanks drove up to your front door, kicked you out, demolished your home and turned it over to hostile foreigners who have no connection to the land of your forefathers? It is a testament to the peaceful nature of the Palestinian people that they don’t rise up by the thousands to resist their occupiers and kick them off the land.
Firing rockets at Sderot and other civilian towns is not legitimate resistance to occupation it’s an act of terror.
Israelis are not “foreigners” with “no connection to the land”.
“And to make your case that Awarta is a pogrom, are you really willing to invoke the Nat Turner revolt to show that whites vs. blacks in America was some sort of “clash”? ”
No, Larry, I was correcting your “Avatar” scenario, where one side can only be considered predominantly the victim and the other side predominantly the villain if ALL the violence is committed by one side. That’s your childish position. It rarely happens–I’m not even sure you could say it happened with the Russian pogroms, if you take people joining revolutionary organizations as a way of fighting back against Russian anti-semitism. I outgrew your sort of naive idiocy decades ago–I don’t assume Palestinians are angels and I don’t assume that 19th century black slaves were angels and I don’t justify either Nat Turner’s revolt or Palestinian atrocities, but I can recognize which side is the oppressor and which is the oppressed.
So, Larry, I agree that Palestinians do awful things and in the case of some of the recent atrocities under discussion here, I suspect Palestinians committed some and perhaps all of them. I don’t know for sure–how could I? However, I don’t care for the false flag theories unless there is hard evidence for them. If you had stuck closely to your complaint that there is a tendency to blame even Palestinian atrocities on Israel, I’d say you have a point. But you went a little further, didn’t you? You started talking about one side being “savage” and one not and here you can’t seem to grasp a simple point–there are usually “savage” atrocities committed by both sides even in cases where it is clearcut which side is the oppressor and which is the oppressed.
So for you, white against black in America–Pure evil against completely innocent victims
Russians against Jews in pre-revolutionary times–Pure evil against completely innocent victims
Israel against Palestinians–A conflict, Israelis acting “brutally”, but Palestinians acting with “savagery”, which you clearly think is worse.
I grew up in the American South immediately after Jim Crow ended, and often when I hear Zionists, liberal or conservative, I hear echoes of the white racism that was pervasive all around me in my youth, some of it open and some of it unconscious. (And btw, Larry, there was a lot of violent black crime in the South and you’d better believe white Southerners thought it was because they were “savage”.)
One other point, Mr. Derfner–
The logic of your belief that Awarta isn’t a pogrom because some Palestinians commit terrorist acts is that you believe in collective punishment and collective guilt. A few Palestinians are guilty, so all can be treated as criminals.
You brought up the Russian pogroms in the late 19th century, but as you surely know those were dwarfed in scale by what happened during the Russian Civil War, when tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of Jews were murdered by the Whites. So were those horrific atrocities somehow less immoral because some minority of Jews had joined the Reds? Was the slaughter of Jews by the Whites not a “pogrom” because there was a gigantic conflict going on? That’s the logic of your position, not mine. I’d say anyone who argued that way is a moral idiot.
larry, i thought i would point something out you seem to be unfamiliar with. under each comment is a reply function specific to that comment. you seem to be posting your response to the general thread. you might try setting them below the actual comment by hitting the reply function directly below/attached to the comment, it makes the threads easier to follow. the comment will drop down below other comments attached to the original.
Pogrom is originally quite non-specific. Literally, it means “thundering over”, but this and similar words mean something like “utter defeat”.
Clearly, the word is applicable whenever the affected people are defenseless, regardless whether OTHER members of the same nationality have means of defense or not. So if Kyrgyz massacre a local Uzbek minority, this is a pogrom regardless if Uzbeks elsewhere could or would do the same to Kyrgyz.
In the conditions of East Jerusalem and Area C, Palestinians are defenseless and settlers are definitely guilty of pogroms. To me, pogroms are acts of unofficial cruelty, even if encouraged by the authorities. IDF is doing something else, and “enforcing Apartheid” is perhaps the best term. Of course, from time to time they are engaged in “indiscriminate reprisals”, but ordinarily, just small bits that implement a large scale inhuman policy.
One should dig out the dates of the incident when “two IDF soldiers took wrong turn in Ramallah”. My recollection is that at that time IDF was engaged in particularly savage operations, which had to “color the sentiments” of the local people.
“Took a wrong turn” is used as an exoneration to absolve the occupying soldiers of engaging in and enforcing a decades-long brutal military occupation — throughout which thousands of innocent civilians were shot and killed by Israeli forces.
On an entirely different level, occupied people have a right to defend themselves from the military that occupies them and resist said occupation.
If a soldier is wearing uniforms and carrying a gun, if that soldier is participating in the enforcement of an illegal military occupation, then that soldier is a fair target.
But, Derfner likes to peddle the same soundbites that have become the hallmark of victimhood in Israel.
LarryDerfner: “Israelis will accept anything the army does as a just response to whatever any Palestinian might or might not have done. They’re less sanguine about settler attacks, but the army can do anything.”
The israeli army has become increasingly brutal in its tactics as it seeks to enforce an occupation and an effective ethnic cleansing campaign on Palestine. The IDF is protecting the worst thuggeries committed by settlers who are nakedly open about their purpose and brazen in following through of their aims: to get Palestinians off tracts of land they covet, to deny them livelihood, to oppress them any way they can, so they will leave, with or without “help”. This is what’s going on, as you well know (based on what you write).
And we also know very well that much worse would happen were the eyes of the world and people like mariapalestina not there to observe, to help and to record. Read her account above and tell me you don’t feel sullied by what happened to her (repeated many times over to many others throughout the west bank). Tell me that what she was subjected to, what the villagers were subjected to, would not make your blood boil. Tell me you would not celebrate some way or another were you in her place, if one of the perpetrators of the mayhem she experienced were found, well, kind of dead. Yet, she does not sound like the kind of person who revels in anyone’s death. Neither are the Palestinians – the vast majority of them.
You know – not just in your heart but in your head – what would happen and what settlers and soldiers are capable of, were we all (including you now) willing to avert our eyes for just a while. We also know – as every israeli does – what the plan really is in the long run – niceties and “peace factories” aside. The reason Israelis turn a blind eye to even outright evil acts perpetrated by their military is because they are all part of it, and because they know it’s all part of “the plan”, an admittedly “unpleasant” part. Deny the existence of the plan all you want, but your average taxi driver in Israel sure doesn’t. My niece in Israel, who just completed her army service doesn’t. She told me what she really thought should happen, adding that this is what ‘everyone” thinks. I have a hard time calling her since – what can I say other than mention the “other side”? it wouldn’t even make the slightest dent, so self-righteous and impervious to alternative input the good people of Israel are.
The point I want to make after this diversion is that given the enormous brutality, persecution and humiliation Palestinians were subjected to, the torture many of them have undergone in Israel’s notorious gulags, the absolute knowledge of “The Plan” and what it means to them personally, and the countless deaths inflicted upon almost every family, what is amazing is that they have behaved by and large with so little “savagery”. That only two soldiers were “lynched”, only a few settler families attacked, only a few turned to suicide bombings is, in truth, remarkable, when considering the almost unbearable, unrelenting assault on their very personhood for so long. When looking at the Palestinians from my comfortable perch afar, I am impressed not by the preponderance of their “savage streak” but by the lack of it. That does not make them all saints. But it does make them, for the most part, remarkably human.
If anything, the perseverance, humanity, commitment to maintaining a sense of dignity and generosity shown by so many Palestinians, their continued willingness to engage even with the worst of the worst settlers, the mostly peaceful, if purposeful, resistance ordinary people partake in – that in the face of overwhelming odds – to me would indicate a people of unusual civilization and capacity for humanity. It is, if you will, a “human streak”.
If the day comes and someone like my niece – an ordinary israeli – finds the courage to think of “the others” as human, and perhaps do one tenth of what someone like mariapalestina, and the many excellent ISM volunteers, and people like Jerry Halper and Joseph Dana and the rag tag Israeli courageous tzadikim who join in the Bi’lin demonstrations do, when that day comes, I’ll stop blaming israel as much as I now do.
It’s just that I am becoming resigned to the possibility of that day never coming, as I find less and less time to talk to any of my nieces, as the great darkness draws nearer.
PS why am I so hopeless? it’s the Jewish demographic. With 50% of all newborns being to haredi families, the proportion no doubt accelerating by the year. The extremism, which I am sure you decry, is thusly on an unrelenting path to achieving critical mass in less than 5-10 years. Does knowing that the reason you are engaging with us here?
Your niece reminds me of the culture of the 1930′s in Germany. The kids were growing up with a most romantic and heroic image of themselves; they were The Future, one devoted to their own folks, one finally taking justice into their own little hands because nobody else in the world cared.
What were they learning back then, in grade school? “You can tell a jew by the nose; it’s usually like a number six, and if you have a good nose, you can smell their special stinking aroma. They lie, cheat, steal, take advantage of innocence. They are the fox in the meadow.” Etc.
Personally, most Americans I know never think about Jews at all, whether here or in Israel. If the subject comes up they will ignore it–the other possibilities are (1) the Arabs are much worse, oh yes, some are ok but radical Islam wants to take over us & the Arabs here are silent about it, or (2) radical Islam wants to kill us all because we love Jesus & God gave the land to the Jews and told us anyone against the Jews will meet a bad fate. And, Jews are smarter than us (Gentiles). Point to all their awards. Never to less lovable achievements. They are God’s chosen people. Some of them are bad, but you have bad apples in any basket, etc. I will say, the most educated of those American Gentiles I know would understand what’s said on this blog; they are aware of reasonable criticism of Israeli policy and our own government’s enabling of what is deplorable. But they’ve never come to this blog, though I’ve indirectly invited them to come here. Nobody I know is anti-semitic. Nor do their long lives suggest otherwide. Interestingly, those American Gentiles I know who are open to criticism of Israel are also the only ones who actually have had long-time Jewish friends and business associates over the years. They attribute their long-time Jewish friends’ immediate attitude on any attempted comment on any subject covered on this blog day to day to Jewish “knee jerk” reaction from otherwide very open, and cherished friends. The ones that have experienced shady Jews in business also have pointed out many Gentile shady characters, etc. They also notice that the Jews they know well think they are members of the superior people, although they (the Jews) never directly say so. And this even if their individual situation does not support such an attitude. Most Americans I’ve known are pretty ignornant of world history, and of the finer points of American history. And they know virtually nothing about American foreign policy in any detail, past or present policy that is.
Too many people – some on this forum- see the conflict in black-and-white terms: Israel=bad, Palestinians=good. They find it hard to deal with the fact that among the Palestinians there are some really bad people, like the ones who murdered the Fogel family, and Juliano Mer-Khamis and Vik Arrigoni and fired at a schoolbus. I’m not saying that they represent Palestinian society, but they are out there, and Israel has the right to defend it’s citizens from them.
What’s your proof?
Without knowing for sure who is responsible for some of those crimes, I can agree that there are some Palestinians who have done some really terrible things. So have some Israelis.
But the conflict isn’t caused by evil individuals on either side–it’s caused by the Zionist insistence that Palestinians only have the rights Israel is willing to grant them.
And do you think Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against that system, not by killing civilians, but by killing armed soldiers who use force to impose that system on them? I mean, if you grant self-defense rights to Israel, surely you don’t limit that right just to them.
Black v white, bad v good. Criminal law and procedure is the way to deal with individual transgressions, whatever the motive of the perp. Yes? And war is the way to deal with collective harmonic transgressions? And the post-Nuremberg international law is the way to deal with criminal states or sub-state criminal entities? This of course is what the Goldstone Report is all about. Hence the significance of Goldstone’s recantation, such as it is. Anyone wanting to kick the can down the road forever proposes that “criminal intent” is the litmus test. At least in Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence, the standard of proof, whether by direct and/or circumstantial evidence under the rules of evidence is very high. Similarly, the current US test for determining
whether or not X is no longer entitled to the rights and privileges of citizenship respecting dual citizenship is determined by establishing intent; nothing short of X expressly proclaiming intent to give up citizenship or acts done in an official foreign state position higher than a low cog will kill claimed US citizenship.
Black v white, bad v good.
Savage v civilized.
Civilized v Barbarian.
The etymology of “savage” shows that the word did not always connotate innate cruelty or brutality. The word originally meant “from the woods,” as distinguished from, say “the city.” Wild v tamed, or domesticated. Etc. Western critics of Western civilization (from Tacitus, e.g., on the virtues of the Germans, to the many later Christian critics) developed the notion of the “noble savage,” and this in turn was debunked, e.g., by Dickens. In comparing the Israelis and the Palestinians, who is who in Avatar? And which group is depicted in Lord Of The Flies?
One way of distinguishing a savage people v a civilized people is who has the greater variety of ways to make a living? And who has the better sewage system, the better plumbing? In macro, who has the more disposable energy system? How civilized are the Japanese? Compared to say, the USA? Or modern France or Germany? And it’s a banality today to say that Nazi Germany’s industrial brutality was delivered by a very advanced, some would say, the most advanced civilization of the day, and one brought to power via democratic election. What was OP Cast Lead in this context? What was the Nakba?
A distinguishing characteristic of the Arab countries, when compared to the West for example, is that many more people live their whole life without actual jobs divorced from regime handouts. And this has been increasingly so with each new generation.
Another way to distinguish the savage from the civilized historically was to compare who lied the most. Forked tongue? Compare “little white lie.” The lower classes traditionally in the USA valued honesty highly, while the upper classes smirked about that.
Have we strayed in America from our first president’s cherry tree? What does Wikileaks reveal about the PTB across the world today?
How far from the Inquisition is the multiple washboarding of suspects whisked off any street today? Who’s soul is being saved by forced lies?
Or does only saving selected bodies count?
What does the everyday life of the average Palestinian and his or her reaction to this life since, say 1947, say about Palestinians in general, admitting the usual relatively few “rotten barrels” in any barrel? And the same question respecting the Israelis?
How different are the Weimar period Germans, the Nazi Era Germans, and the modern Germans, from each other? And why? Does answering these questions suggest something about the term “savage?” And about the term “civilized?” Same question regarding contemporary Japanese, and Japanese of the Imperial era.
You’re right, maybe I should have written “probably”. In general, if it looks like Palestinian terrorism, it most probably is. Occam’s Razor.
1. I suggest you take a statistics class. It will give you some insight into probability and how statisticians calculate it.
2. You still haven’t explained how you came up with that assumption despite evidence that there was no breach of the security fence around the colony.
But, that’s nothing new for you and your ilk, you know, the Jewish fanatics who use the old testament as though it were a land deed.
The media here in Israel are reporting that a “dramatic development ” in the Fogel massacre is expected today, and the gag will be lifted. I assume that means an arrest. So stand by.
As far as I know it’s not true that there was no breach in the sttlements’ security fence. The screw-up was that the civilian security guard who checked it out decided that it was nothing , a false alarm (like when animals bump into the fence) .
link to haaretz.com
“Israeli security forces have arrested two teenage residents of the West Bank Arab village of Awarta for allegedly carrying out last month’s murder of five family members in the settlement of Itamar, the lifting of a gag order revealed on Sunday.
Palestinian students Amjad Awad, 19, and Hakim Awad 18, both admitted to committing the murder. ”
Its possible that the confessions are false. And, its possible that the confessions are true.
Up early Richard — but not to make amends for bearing false witness, eh?
>> Its possible that the confessions are false. And, its possible that the confessions are true.
And if the confessions are legitimate, I hope that the two men are held accountable for their crimes. Unlike Zio-supremacist hypocrites, I don’t expect criminals to be let free and victims to be asked to “look to the future” and “make ‘better wheels’”.
Notice how Richard Witty tries to change the subject. Richard Witty made up a bloodthirsty quote about Hamas, but he refuses to correct, or even acknowledge, that he violated one of the 10 commandments.
How would you recommend that I make amends for using a ” quote rather than a ‘?
RW
I’m sure a self-imposed exile for at least 12 months would work.
Update: Just heard on Army Radio that two Palestinians, residents of Awarta, one of them a minor, have been arrested as suspects in the Fogel family murder.
Update#2:
link to haaretz.com
Family of accused teen says they have medical evidence that their son could not have committed the Itamar murders.
Not sure what that all signifies, except that in countries that allow due process of law, the principle should be “innocent until proven guilty in a fair and objective court of law.”
If this turns out to be true, I hope it gets blasted around the world. Forget the US media, nobody gives a shit here anyway. Their eyes glaze over reading Arabic names.
Because if this turns out to be true, and this is the best that the Israeli security forces can come up with (1) they’re idiots, and (2) they’re despicable.
Because if this turns out to be true, the effect of this will not be lost on the Europeans.
I watched a Masai manhood initiation video this past week. They get a circumcision at age 17. Takes them three months to recover, before they can walk properly.