-
-
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status … 11
- Israel takes 30 dunams of land near Salfit ‘for security … 4
- Aaron David Miller: After a short ‘peace process,’ look … 36
- Rafah march for deteriorating hunger strikers as family appeals for … 0
- Rafah’s nicest tunnel: Siege meets surf in Gaza 6
- Iranian talks fail after neocon ‘blitz’ — as Obama dispatches … 28
- Saving Illinois from Senator Kirk 8
- Human rights activists will hardnose the highway from Woodstock to … 0
-
- BDS victory: South Africa strips Ahava’s ‘made in Israel’ label 709
- Video: Israeli mob demands all African refugees be deported from … 471
- Day after pogroms, Likud MK calls for internment camp for … 418
- Neverending Nakba: Israel breaks lull, attacks Gazan farmers 413
- ‘This is not fair play’: Mahmoud Sarsak’s family demands his … 387
- March of the Flags 344
- Neocons in Washington Post: Military strike on Iran would ‘calm … 322
- Nabi Saleh’s Bassem Tamimi convicted by Israeli courts based on … 293
-
- The Messiah’s Donkey: Settlers fire on Palestinian villagers as the … 235
- Aharon Appelfeld’s rage at the German language (and Arendt’s need … 156
- March of the Flags 126
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their … 126
- Feeling the hate in Long Island 97
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism 95
- Israeli judge to issue verdict in Rachel Corrie case 94
- WaPo’s Walter Pincus says US is ‘going above and beyond … 87
-
Recent Comments
click link to see last 100 comments- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism (95)
- Annie Robbins: “policies will continue and may only be counteracted by firmness on part of command [sic]...
- Hostage: pt 8. @ your link would be comical if it wasn’t so devastating. Yes the State Department Historian included...
- Annie Robbins: pt 8. @ your link would be comical if it wasn’t so devastating.
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status for millions (11)
- sciri21: Kirk is the same guy who said sanctions against Iran should be intended to hurt the Iranian people and that...
- traintosiberia: So its not the stroke .He was making things up before that happened to him. With these kind of...
- American Zionist responses to Tel Aviv riots– largely indifferent, but some outrage (38)
- aiman: The persecution, rape and murder of sub-Saharan Africans in Libya, the abysmal treatment of South Asians and...
- Annie Robbins: billmon wrote an excellent essay on the history of the scots-irish in america. not sure if it’s...
- Aaron David Miller: After a short ‘peace process,’ look for war with Iran in 2013 (36)
- Keith: Oops! Inadvertent duplication. Sorry. So little time, so many excuses!
- Rafah’s nicest tunnel: Siege meets surf in Gaza (6)
- Shingo: While I see where you come from Avi, if merging cultures means an end to suffering and human rights abuses,...
- Did Israeli Eurovision contestant watch too much Juliano Mer Khamis? (52)
- Annie Robbins: whoa GL, check this out http://www.newsinenglish.no/20 12/05/27/beate-in-baku-and-thr eatened-too/...
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism (95)
Our Writers
- Philip Weiss
- Adam Horowitz
- Today in Palestine
- Annie Robbins
- Alex Kane
- Kate
- Alice Rothchild
- Ahmed Moor
Blogroll
Omar Barghouti discusses Gaza, BDS and Juliano Mer-Khamis on Democracy Now
Posted in Israel/Palestine
i’m so glad he was finally granted a visa. excellent interview,
go Omar!
Are you a relative humanist? Here’s Barghouti on this applicable concept:
link to counterpunch.org
From Wikipedia – “Barghouti is currently studying for a masters degree in philosophy at Tel Aviv University, on which he has commented: “My studies at Tel Aviv University are a personal matter and I have no interest in commenting.”
Lucky he’s not a Zionist or people here would never let him get away with this.
As long as we’re quoting from Wiki, might as well quote the next few sentences as well:
(Full PACBI document on the subject: link to pacbi.org
Shmuel,
Lack of alternatives? You write that with a straight face about a man that lived 11 years in the US and studied at Columbia? There are plenty of universities in the West Bank and abroad Barghouti could have gone to. Why is he insisting on studying at a university he wants to boycott and is built on top of a displaced Arab village (Sheich Monis). He is a complete fraud.
Neither you nor I know his personal circumstances (maybe’s he’s afraid of not being let back into the West Bank, if he goes to study abroad). The point is that BDS necessarily has different criteria for internationals, Israelis and Palestinians. There is no inconsistency here.
Glad you mentioned al-Shaykh Muwannis though: link to palestineremembered.com
mate
Yes, invent excuses for him. They are very weak. Of course there is a major contradiction. If Barghouti wants to BDS Tel-Aviv university in some way, obviously he wants to harm Tel-Aviv university. Why would you study at an institution you want to harm? He is lucky that Tel-Aviv does not throw him out. In any case, how can he endorse an institution that according to his view is a clear colonial enterprise and has taken land illegally? In short, he is a total fraud.
And what is wrong with the universities in the West Bank? Again, not only a fraud but also a snob. But keep defending him.
Good for Barghouti. It’s like a great big middle finger to the Zionists. Love it.
Why is he insisting on studying at a university he wants to boycott
last i heard one can’t ‘insist’ ones way into a university. the point of the boycott is for palestinians to be treated equally and enjoy their rights. so why shouldn’t he go to school where ever he wants in palestine if he has the opportunity? maybe israel should have thought of this before they plopped down roots in somebody else’s homeland.
“Good for Barghouti. It’s like a great big middle finger to the Zionists. Love it.”
Really? How is saying I would rather study at a Zionist institute founded on land vacated by Palestinian refugees instead of at a Palestinian university a “big middle finger” to Zionists? It just shows he is a sell out and a fraud and also a snob. It seems he is a closet Zionist.
“If Barghouti wants to BDS Tel-Aviv university in some way, obviously he wants to harm Tel-Aviv university.”
False. (But, then again, logic is not your strong suit.)
“Why would you study at an institution you want to harm?”
Again, false premise.
“He is lucky that Tel-Aviv does not throw him out.”
Is that what is called in your barbaric country when an institute of higher learning respects the right of freedom of conscience of its students?? Luck?
“In any case, how can he endorse an institution that according to his view is a clear colonial enterprise and has taken land illegally?”
He hasn’t endorsed, he’s matriculated.
By use the facilities they built for Jews against them; to help tear down their criminal enterprise.
“By use the facilities they built for Jews against them; to help tear down their criminal enterprise.”
Yes, the secrets to a successful BDS movement can only be found by getting a Phd from Tel-Aviv university. One of your funniest arguments yet Tanaka.
If Barghouti wants to BDS Tel-Aviv university in some way, obviously he wants to harm Tel-Aviv university.
This is like saying the parent who wants to discipline her child for bad behaviour is intent on harming her child.
Shut up, eee. Palestinians are ROUTINELY denied passage to complete international studies. In Gaza alone there are over a number of Fullbright Scholarship recipients who have never been allowed to pursue their award.
BDS represents a luxury the rest of us can sacrifice to make a statement. For people a number of Palestinians who have to attend college at Israeli universities because they are trapped in the Israeli prison system and held for years without trial or warrant, and because the IDF bombs the crap out even Palestinian grade schools, let alone colleges, that’s very much not a luxury.
It’s just something else you want to steal from a Palestinian, Israeli.
“Yes, the secrets to a successful BDS movement can only be found by getting a Phd from Tel-Aviv university.”
Something similar worked for Mandela.
eee, since you are all for purism: what do you think of, say, the rebellious 60′s youngsters who continued to smooch off their parents’ largess while criticizing everything that generation stood for, and urging a boycott of anyone under 30?
Contradiction? sure. But all rebellions have them, since by definition, revolutions struggle against an established order; yet the revolutionaries have to survive, and preferably thrive.
Your comment made me think of the take over of berkeley by the very ones who continued to study there.
Actually, it’s easy top get out of this “contradiction”. All it takes is some thought….
check
excuse me? get away with what? i don’t think the boycott advocates students dropping out of TAU.
“AMY GOODMAN: On Sunday, the Egyptian Foreign Minister Nabil El Araby affirmed an Arab League request to the U.N. Security Council to allow for the enforcement of a no-fly zone over Gaza.
FOREIGN MINISTER NABIL EL ARABY: [translated] A no-fly zone over Gaza, I think, is a fair demand, and we partook in it. We are one of the countries that participated. Very briefly, this conflict must be put to an end. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has been going on for more than 60 years, and we must work on putting it to an end. This requires a ceasefire from all countries and to begin a serious conference for a solution to be reached. Continuing with current world policies will not achieve anything.
AMY GOODMAN: Your response to this, Omar Barghouti?
OMAR BARGHOUTI: I think it’s very important. We’re seeing a not just sea change in Arab diplomacy after the departure of Mubarak, the dictator of Egypt. First we saw the U.S. veto against its own position for decades that Israel’s colonial settlements are illegal and an obstacle to peace. The U.S. had to veto that, because there was no longer Mubarak to do its dirty work. If Mubarak were still around, he would have pressured the Palestinians to pull this out of the Security Council and not to embarrass the U.S. So the U.S. had to vote against its own position and to stand in this little dark corner with Israel facing the entire world community. So we’re seeing here some change, some real change, in the tone of the Arab League and of the Arab officials towards the Palestinians. Absolutely, a no-fly zone is more justified than ever over Gaza. Why should it be over Libya only, and Israelis, as an occupying power, continue to bomb Gaza with U.S. weaponry, F-16s and U.S. missiles?”
Amy Goodman ” Israel is deeply concerned about the BDS movement, is spending millions to try to defeat it.”
Keep pushing. Drop literature, sponsor guest in your community, contact your Reps…
Worthwhile interview with Flynt Leverett
link to pbs.org
Do not like to admit that I have not been over to antiwar.com in awhile. Used to be a daily visitor over there. Justin Raimando was always a must
great interview
link to antiwar.com
Peter Hart, activism director at Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), discusses his article “Is There Really a Goldstone ‘Retraction’?” about the media spin-machine working to wipe any traces of Israeli war crimes in Gaza from the minds of Americans; Richard Goldstone’s minor quibbles with the Goldstone Report‘s conclusions, expressed in his Washington Post op-ed, that amount to questioning the existence of a high-level Israeli official policy of intentionally killing civilians (based on information provided by the Israeli military’s self-investigation); the significant (and seemingly effective) pressure from Israel supporters brought to bear on Goldstone; and the report’s significant evidence of Israeli war crimes that remains unchallenged – including targeting civilian infrastructure and using white phosphorous.
I’m listening to Omar Barghouti and I’m saying, the guy makes sense, I can’t disagree with anything he’s saying, and I’m thinking, what’s the political difference between me, an Israeli dove, and a Palestinian nationalist, maybe there really isn’t there isn’t one. And then Barghouti is asked about the murder of Juliano Mer-Khamis, and who might have done it, and he just dances over the question, implying that Mer-Khamis couldn’t have been killed by a Palestinian at all when it’s a virtual certainty that he was, then he changes the subject back to Israel. And this reminds me why, despite my support of Palestinian independence, I don’t “identify” with it – because of this Palestinian difficulty with national self-criticism.
Larry,
It’s good to see you commenting here. I hope it becomes a habit :-)
As you are keenly aware, Palestinians are not the only ones who have a problem with self-criticism, but I see your point that it is different coming from Palestine’s “best and brightest”. On the other hand, I think you have misread Barghouti’s remark on Mer-Khamis’ murder. Barghouti sees himself as part of a revolutionary resistance movement, and chooses his words carefully. I think there is in fact a strong internal condemnation in his clarification – “no patriotic Palestinian” – and stressing of culture (especially the kind of culture Juliano promoted – that Barghouti knows is not popular with some Palestinians) as a crucial component of the Palestinian struggle. He knows very well that not all Palestinians share his universalist vision for Palestinian (or Palestinian-Israeli) society, but will fight for it anyway, as what he considers best for his people. What’s not to like?
Larry: I agree with Shmuel; please continue to visit and comment here at Mondoweiss. I also think Shmuel answers the questions you raise in your comment.
thanks for the hint, James. Yes that could be another possibility. If he supports a one state solution he cannot be a nationalist, and he may in fact make such a distinction. …
As a German I obviously have a difficulty to make the fine distinction. Although I think Willi Brandt did.
A nationalistcan be a patriot, but a patriot doesn’t necessarily need to be a nationalist.
And here we encounter neutrality problems:
why do you think it was a virtual certainty he was?
Because he’s ‘familiar with the views them fanatic Muzzies hold’ and ‘he knows how primitive Palestinian society — Not all of it, of course, lest he come across as a generalizing fool — can be when it comes to gender issues’.
I would like to know what “virtual certainty” means when it comes to evidence.
Phil was virtually certain that Arabs could not achieve democracy because of a deeply ingrained patriarchal structure.
He wasn’t convinced until he saw it with his own eyes.
Here you come along, and without missing a beat, without having an inkling about which you are talking, you shove your claim again, the same claim that Jew after Jew in Israel has been advancing. And the “evidence” that they have used is the cherry-picked video of Juliano Mer-Khamis’ statements to fit their allegation that he was murdered by a Palestinian.
So, “Virtual Certainty” is weasel talk for the Palestinians had to have done it because Israel and the colonists had no interst in killing him seeing as he was a flaming Zionist who was making Palestinain lives miserable. Right?
Larry Derfner, the gate-keeper for the Israeli left. Bah-li Le-Haki.
Shmuel doesn’t see what he has done with his comment. He was all over Arnon’s “Cooshie” comment, but your unfounded generalizations — “because of this Palestinian difficulty with national self-criticism.” — are just dandy, it seems. No need for criticism there as Shmuel is simply star-struck by your presence.
So, I do not share the same sentiment, much in the same way I do not share Didi Reimer’s racist demands.
Your presence at the Jerusalem Post reminds me of Colmes’ function on Fox’s Hannity & Colmes.
“And this reminds me why, despite my support of Palestinian independence, I don’t ‘identify’ with it – because of this Palestinian difficulty with national self-criticism.”
Given the difficulty Israelis have with national self-criticism, do you “identify” with Israeli independence??
LarryDerfner: “And this reminds me why, despite my support of Palestinian independence, I don’t “identify” with it – because of this Palestinian difficulty with national self-criticism”
A little correction is in order: you don’t identify with Palestinian independence because you are, at heart and always, an Israeli, who was raised in a consciousness steeped deep in palestinian inferiority. Being a person of conscience, you allowed yourself to peek under some of the layers of prejudice in which almost all Israelis are wrapped. But that only took you so far – you can see the righteousness of palestinian demand for statehood, but it is their humaness you still have trouble with, as your comment illustrates.
You somehow expect someone like Bargoutti, who bravely struggles against unbelievable oppression, to denounce – at every turn, preferably – the fact that Palestinians themselves may not be all of one cloth and/or may be subject to the same factionalism that every movement has been prey to, from time immemorial. It goes without saying that Bargoutti is deeply upset by the killing of Julian, given who he is and what he believes. As of right now, there’s no clear suspect (even if the PA claims to have one). Just as there’s no suspect for the Itamar murders – which almost every reasonable look at the facts of the case points away from palestinian(s) as possible perpetrators. Yet, the villagers of Awadi are subjected to unrelenting persecution, every bit as egregious as what the jews of the Ghettos of old had to suffer through. Without as much as an iota of evidence pointing that way.
Supposing I looked at every sentence you utter through the lens of “national self-criticism”. Would you be able to get through a single sentence at all, given the preponderence of insults heaped on the human dignity of almost one and all in Israel? if I use the capacity for “national self-criticism” as criterion for independence, and given the steadfast avoidance of said “self criticism” by the founding zionists including the likes of Ben Gurion, Meir and Dayan, wouldn’t israel be stripped of its “right” to statehood, just the same? wouldn’t any national movement, including my own adopted country, the US of A?
I suggest you do little de-construction of your comment, and perhaps pull back the invisible curtain, to see that deeper layer of prejudice of which I speak above. You have a need to not make “common cause” with a seemingly smart and brave palestinian such as Bhargoutti, who tags on your sympathies as a person. In truth, that need to “not make common cause” has less to do with palestinians’ inability to subject themselves to “national self criticism” and much more with the psychological predicate of setting even the “best of them” against “the worst of us”.
They is them and us is we. That’s the essence of tribalism which, by definition, works through exclusion and exclusivity. And you, who I have nothing against, may have reached level 3 of the tribal paradigm, which means there are at least two more levels to go (spoken as one who has not been able to get past level 4 yet, but who at least can see the outlines of a world beyond).
Am also seconding Shmuel’s comment. Come back any time (I promise to try and keep Avi from tearing you limb from limb….if I can, that is….).
In the interest of self-criticism – got the name of the village wrong AND the spelling of Barghoutti’s name. My bad….
Avi,
Relax. Larry made a reasonable comment that deserved a reasonable answer. Barghouti scrupulously said that we don’t actually know who was responsible (absolutely true) and then said that it could not have been a Palestinian (or something to that effect), which Larry took as a “difficulty with national self-criticism”. I merely pointed out that that is not exactly what Barghouti said or meant.
I don’t know about “virtual certainty”, but it is at least conceivable that a Palestinian was responsible, no? Motive, opportunity and all that other stuff we learned from Agatha Christie? Besides, Mer-Khamis may have been a pain in the ass to Israel, but he was also an Israeli citizen, half-Jewish and a star – in more ways than one. Who knows, but there are simpler explanations that have absolutely nothing to do with racism or racist language.
BTW, I have many faults, but getting “star-struck” is not one of them. I’ve read some of Larry’s pieces in the JP and appreciate his perspective. I think he might contribute a lot to discussion at MW if he’s not chased away by what sometimes passes for discourse in these here parts.
Shmuel,
First off, there’s no need for a patronizing “relax”. I’m not some kid you push around. You were lecturing Slater about having thick skin. Grow some thick skin then.
Derfner’s comment was only reasonable to the naive.
He first positions himself as a martyr for Palestinian freedom and then moves in to make a racist claim.
That you can’t see that is your problem, not mine.
Rabin was a star, too. And he was a whole full Jew. Perhaps you can come up with better supporting claims.
Incidentally, instead of bringing up Agatha Christie, you might want to take a long introspective look at Israel’s policies over the last 60 years. An epiphany might strike.
Edit:
Defensive. Cheap jab. Nice, Shmuel. Nice.
Avi,
I apologise for the “relax”. It was uncalled for.
I felt that Larry’s remark about “Palestinian self-criticism” was worth serious and respectful discussion (there’s a lot more to be said on the subject). What jumped out at you was his “virtual certainty”, which you felt deserved scathing disdain. To each his own.
Sure. Why not give Derfner a hand as he rolls out caricatures like, say….the burqa so as to better understand the ‘civilized’ man’s well-intentioned criticism of them savage natives, eh?
There is no need to hide behind form while ignoring substance. It only makes you come across as superficial and insincere.
Avi, why don’t you write something for the upper layers about what got you to the point were you stand now? I would be really interested.
this is the passage that triggered Derfner’s response:
OMAR BARGHOUTI: It’s very hard to say who killed him, because no Palestinian group or individual had any interest in killing him. I mean, any patriotic Palestinian lost Juliano, because Juliano did a great service to the people of Jenin, especially the refugee camp, and on the front of cultural resistance. When I talked about nonviolent popular resistance, people forget that Palestinians have been resisting Israel’s occupation and apartheid in many forms, including culture—dance, music, poetry, theater and so on. And Juliano was really one of the people at the forefront of that cultural resistance.
you may not like the phrase that he “danced around” the question. But indirectly Barghouti denies that there could be forces, single persons, in Palestine that may in fact have had an interest in killing him. To deny such a possibility feels unrealistic. Since it creates a homogeneous “national body” that clearly can’t exist.
I am not too fond of the term national self-criticism, but that may be nitpicking. Since Barghouti obviously denies anybody inside the Palestinian national body could have a motive. Only from an very idealistic perspective can you generalize the way Barghouti does in this context. this an his immediate association tells the listener it can only have been an Israeli.
I doubt he is not aware that he would never support the ideas of every single Palestinian, but he censors himself, since he feels it shouldn’t be said in the context. But that’s wrong. Don’t you recognize that’s simply the Janus face of Israeli hasbara? In spite of the fact that obviously he as a Palestinian he has to fight much more prejudice than e.g. an Israeli in the US.
Avi: I agree 1000 per cent with LeaNder. I would love to learn more about your own personal journey, and you would be contributing tremendously to the cause.
leander :Since Barghouti obviously denies anybody inside the Palestinian national body could have a motive.
remember this is an interview not something barghouti penned. consider the editing and listen to his pause @ 8:18-19 in the video. when someone pauses and says ‘i mean’ it is in a sense a rephrase, a self edit.
because no Palestinian group or individual had any interest in killing him (pause) I mean, any patriotic Palestinian lost Juliano, because Juliano did a great service to the people of Jenin, especially the refugee camp, and on the front of cultural resistance.
i do not think it is an ‘obvious denial’ anybody inside the Palestinian national body could have a motive..i think it is an ‘obvious denial’ any patriotic palestinian could have done this. i think he is saying there was no conceivable political upside either from p groups or p’s individually he has any awareness of. had he written out his words his intent would be clearer. i think it sounds like he immediately amended his words and blended the amended version into the next thought.
I don’t know about “virtual certainty”, but it is at least conceivable that a Palestinian was responsible, no?
yes i think it is conceivable a palestinian did it, of course. it easily could have been done for personal not political reasons too.
i guess aside from his family the greatest hurt is to the palestinian people, the community. it reaches in and grabs at the heart of the community. considering the immense pain of the itmar murders in a way it mirrors the pain of the jewish community. so one could imagine this as a kind of payback, that’s all. there’s motive on both sides. i think it is conceivable either ethnicity could have carried out this murder.
but according to ma’an news
Police in Jenin have charged a former Al-Aqsa Brigades militant with the murder of an Israeli-Palestinian theatre director, security sources said Wednesday.
Palestinian police arrested Mujahed Qaniri on Monday, just hours after a masked gunman shot dead Juliano Mer-Khamis, director of The Freedom Theatre in the refugee camp in this northern West Bank city.
hmm
Shmuel, I am wondering about this: and a Palestinian nationalist is that a fair description of Barghouti? It somehow sticks out: the dove versus the nationalist.
But yes, in his article about the Gaza war, which I thought Phil treated unfair, he went very far for the JP.
It somehow sticks out: the dove versus the nationalist.
I agree.
I think Derfner’s point is more considerable.
That is that even from the part of his perspective and analysis that is entirely sympathetic, he discerns a fundamental non-acceptance of Israelis’ experience and humanity.
And, that that constructs, NOT a universalistic democratic movement, but at least the suspicion that BDS is primarily a flip to a similarly nationalist movement (to Zionism) that uses the language of universalism.
Forgive me if I exagerated your point Larry.
Omar Barghouti will be speaking a the University of Massachusetts on Thursday, April 14, 6:00 – 8:00 pm, Thompson Hall, Main Lecture Hall
200 Hicks Way
Amherst, MA
Right, Richard. Everything is about the narcissistic desire that Israeli feelings be placed first and foremost. You might even be right, in a way that you don’t intend.
You aren’t going to persuade a people to suicide. You might be able to persuade them to endorse a universal approach in which the pendulum swing does not threaten to subordinate them.
You shouldn’t even. You should find a way that improves the status of justice and doesn’t just replace advantage (or worse).
My impression is that Barghouti individually is definitively not a person that seeks to persecute, but…
Again, unless conditions of the BDS movement are clear, concise, they will be the slippery slope to war. And, they are not now largely in relation to the ambiguity about whether they pursue a use of language that is consistent with a two-state approach or a one-state.
Both the two-state and the one-state approach require mutual acceptance, mutual humanization to succeed, and in that sense BDS is a step towards isolation, away from integration.
If it is surgery, then that short, clearly conditioned “cut” can be a healing one. If it is a hammer, blunt, imprecise, permanent rather than temporary, then it will be a suppressive one.
Those that merely advocate for justice, should be concerned. Those that have any skin in the game are extremely concerned. Those that have experienced severe traumas in recent history (Jews, Israelis AND Palestinians) have raw wounds and are more sensitive than normal, therefore demanding more sensitivity.
>> Those that merely advocate for justice, should be concerned.
In a previous thread, you made elevating universal human rights above tribalism sound like a bad thing. And now you’ve done the same thing with the pursuit of justice. Truly bizarre.
>> Those that have experienced severe traumas in recent history (Jews, Israelis AND Palestinians) have raw wounds and are more sensitive than normal, therefore demanding more sensitivity.
“The PRESENT is what matters.” No, wait a minute, “Remember the Holocaust!”
I find interesting, but not surprising, the equivalence drawn between i) suffering sixty years in the past and ii) ON-GOING aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder. When Isarel is the bad guy, “balance” is always required. When Palestinians are the bad guys, f*ck balance.
Parts of that make sense Richard. This, for instance–
“Both the two-state and the one-state approach require mutual acceptance, mutual humanization to succeed,”
That’s true. But I know enough of your record to know that “mutual humanization” for you means condemnation of Palestinian crimes against Israelis and whitewashing and excuses for Israeli crimes against Palestinians. It’s highly unlikely you’ll change. But the words I cited above are true and can’t be blamed if the positions you take in practice contradict their meaning.
“Those that have experienced severe traumas in recent history (Jews, Israelis AND Palestinians) have raw wounds and are more sensitive than normal, therefore demanding more sensitivity.”
I’m not so sure about this. There are millions of Palestinians, Israelis, and non-Israeli Jews and they’re not all sensitive little flowers. Some of them are killers (on both sides, to be fair and without getting into numbers), and quite a few of the Israelis are quite happy to profit from ethnic cleansing and other crimes, while acting very sensitive about crimes against them.
“Sensitivity” is one of those double-edged words. Sometimes it means compassion and other times it just means a sentimental refusal to see clearly what is going on.
Richard Witty, please apply the sequential statements in your comment here to the history of civil rights in the USA. Thanks.
What are we, chopped liver? ;) RW suspicion at work, happily finding a little thread to hang it on.
There could be many, many explanations for why Barghouti responds like he did, e.g. the expectation of prejudice, the dominant image of the Palestinians as a collective of terrorists that want to drive the Israelis into the sea?
But jump on the chance he does, our master of ethics, ultimately there is only one explanation:
he discerns a fundamental non-acceptance of Israelis’ experience and humanity.
Rule no 1: when it concerns Palestinians it’s always really simple, you always can generalize, only if the Israelis are concerned matters are very, very difficult.
“Rule no 1: when it concerns Palestinians it’s always really simple, you always can generalize, only if the Israelis are concerned matters are very, very difficult.”
That’s basically RW’s approach in a nutshell.
>> … he discerns a fundamental non-acceptance of Israelis’ experience and humanity.
The non-acceptance likely has an awful lot to do with Israel’s past history of violence, theft and ethnic cleansing (something Zio-supremacists like you continue to coldly dismiss as “necessary”) and ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder. Not a whole lot of “humanity” there.
Yes, eljay, and the irony is that Richard Witty is a self-proclaimed liberal zionist and anyone who takes even a glance at the history of Zionism as an ideology will discern a fundamental non-acceptance of native Palestinians’ experience and humanity (not to mention the actual implementation of zionist concepts in the Jewish state of Israel). Accordingly, Witty also deplores the subordination of a people, in his case, the Jewish people, under the rubric of universal rights. Heavy unintentional irony yet again since every reactionary majority regime in modern and post-modern history has railed against subversive minorities intent on subordinating the majority, railed against replacing the white queen with the black queen, so to say–again under the rubric of liberty and equality, etc. The test of virtue is power. Just ask Truman.
There’s really a question that Mer-Khamis was killed by a Palestinian? Of course he was. He was a liberal iconoclast, Islamists hated his guts. Israeli soldiers or settlers might have killed him? They’d never heard of him.
Its still unknown.
After years of groups proudly taking credit for terror, there has been in the last few weeks a couple in which noone has taken credit yet.
Hamas was still proud though of targeting a school bus.
It’s funny how you can only tolerate that little bit of actual (and rare) truthtelling on your part by immediate shrieking “SCHOOOOOL BUS!”
You’re going to milk those poor victims for all the political cover it’ll earn you once Israel stops dropping bombs on schools again, aren’t you? You don’t care that dozens of Palestinians were dead before that school bus was even in the cross hairs.
It’s a war crime when either group targets civilians, but you just keep making justifications. You don’t think the law applies to so-called “Jewish nationalism,” do you? Like eee, you think Israeli actions are above the law.
Are you going to organize the lynch mob now, Mr. Israeli “dove?” Or are you too busy terrorizing 14-year-old girls in Awarta.
Israeli soldiers or settlers might have killed him? They’d never heard of him.
really? if you believe that there is evidence that he was killed by palestinians or others, let’s hear it, but in one of the most closely surveilled societies in the world it seems improbable that the State or members of the settler community had never heard of him.
There’s really a question that Mer-Khamis was killed by a Palestinian? Of course he was.
Of course he was? That doesn’t make one ounce of sense. His father was Palestinian, and Mer-Khamis was part of the community.
Israeli soldiers or settlers might have killed him? They’d never heard of him.
But the Mistaravim would have.
There are a few posters on this site who do present the “Janus face of Israeli hasbara” – if you say a single bad word about Palestinians or a single good word about Israel, they go bananas.
You seem to equate “bad word” with “presumptuous prejudices”.
“Larry Derfner”, yeah, that sounds like someone who is native to the Middle East.
Hopefully, your limbs are still in tact, lest Danaa get offended. After all, the difference between those who engage in ‘discussion’ and and those who are busy ‘mauling’ is that the former have managed to wrap their bigotry in nice, polite euphemisms. After all, they’re not “angry”, they’re “understandably emotional”.
Hey Larry Derfner,
Welcome to the Mondoweiss mudwrestling. Your name, according to Avi indicates that you are not a Mizrachi Jew. According to Avi only Jews from the Middle East are allowed to comment here without having their roots attacked.
On a different note, I have read that the killer of Mer-Khamis approached him without a mask and only donned the mask during his getaway. The only argument I have read regarding the guilt of the apprehended alleged assailant was whether he was Hamas (argued by Fatah) or Fatah (argued by Hamas).
A self critical Barghouti would have said, unfortunately there exist elements within Palestinian society that fear artistic openness and view them as anti Islamic, but this was a case of Palestinian hasbara.
“Palestinian hasbara” doesn’t handwave the murder of three hundred and fifty children, WJ. Actual Israeli hasbara does.
Coming from a recent Oleh who is squatting on Palestinian land and enjoying the fruit of ethnic cleansing your response is quite rich. Chutzpah has just taken on a new meaning.
In a recent post you claimed that you were “thinking about” going back to Brooklyn; why don’t you go back to Brooklyn already and take Derfy with you?
You transcribe that which Israeli propaganda has pumped into your living room while pointing the finger. That’s hypocritical.
Palestinian division or civil war is Israel’s dream come true. And statements by Israeli officials are rather damning in that regard. But, why bother thinking beyond the confines of your myopic views, right?
As if more proof were needed for the truth of Dylan’s words:
“A man can’t give his address out to bad company”, along comes Avi and proves it once again.
Avi, a confession: in real life I’m more like you, rage bubbling just under the surface. That’s why I don’t engage (or try not to) in debates – never learnt the art of impassionate argumentation, and passion being what it is…well, “discussions” tend to degenerate… on I/P in particular (and a few other issues — only 5 or 6, honest). And once I lose patience (which happens way too fast), I don’t even do much bristling before getting this urge to go get me some scalps.
It may be good that written words allow a somewhat calmer persona to emerges (those scalps, you know, they weigh a bunch; messy too…). Sometimes I think you may be the inverse; wouldn’t be surprised to find out you are a sweety pie to all who know you in person…..please don’t tell either way.
Take it easy on Larry, now, will you? he is human, I believe….
Larry Derfner–It’d be more helpful if you’d reply to specific posters, rather than making these pronouncements about unnamed people. Or specify which ones you think are irrational (which leaves them free to say what they think of you, of course), while responding to the ones who want to have a conversation with you even though they disagree.
There are a few posters on this site….if you say a single bad word about Palestinians or a single good word about Israel, they go bananas.
larry, i don’t see you here much but it sounds like perhaps you read the comments a lot of make this statement. i know you can’t be talking about me because i said something nice about israel when clencher asked me the recently if i had ever been there. (i think it was clencher). so please be specific. which posters ‘go bananas’ if someone says a ‘single word’ good about about israel or a ‘single bad word’ about Palestinians’?
ps for the most part i liked your article in jpost recently.
LR: As you’ve found out, Mondoweiss is not immune to the polarisation that the IP conflict generates (perhaps inevitably with endless bad-faith ‘negotiations’ failing to develop any common ground). But I think there are many readers more interested in learning from others than judging them, thus I hope you will continue to comment here.
You state your support for Palestinian independence but cannot ‘identify’ with it. This implies you support a two state solution. Bargouiti’s statements (and as far as I can see the BDS website) seems more nuanced on the end outcome; indeed one could argue that a single state would better meet all their demands.
As someone who views Israeli policy mainly through their actions on the ground, I’ve come to see a single state as a more likely (if unintended) outcome than two states. Thus I wonder whether you could ever see yourself (and the majority of Israeli’s) ‘identifying’ with such a single state.
Annie, you’re right,, if I’m going to criticize posters, I should specify who – I was referring to Avi and Chaos4700. They can’t handle it if you suggest that the Palestinians are not 100% good or that Israel is not 100% bad – they flip out, the call you a racist, an oppressor, they say, “but look what Israel did here, and here, and here…” At least 90% of what I write in the JPost is about what Israel does wrong – the question is, Is it possible to have a discussion with other leftists/doves/progressives/whatever that ALSO looks at what the Palestinians do wrong and even what Israel does right? Not balance for the sake of balance, or “symettry” – I don’t think the two sides are symettrical, I think Israel is overwhelmingly the guilty party in its conflict with the Palestinians – but just SOMETHING to show that we are dealing with two fallible nations, not angels and devils. Most of the people on this site seem to be partners to such a discussion. But not Avi and Chaos4700, and the list is probably not limited to them.
This part of what WJ said seems to me something worth discussing further here on this thread:
“A self critical Barghouti would have said, unfortunately there exist elements within Palestinian society that fear artistic openness and view them as anti Islamic, but this was a case of Palestinian hasbara.”
I don’t think doing so will ruin Barghouti’s general credibility. In the context of what Barghouti said, is this a case of a bit of Palestinian hasbara slipping out?