DailyKos, the popular political site whose goal is to elect "more and better Democrats", has silenced yet another wonderful strong Palestinian voice, Palestinian Israeli blogger Simone Daud (formerly known as palestinian professor).
The move comes on the same day that the Palestinian Authority officially applied to the UN for the recognition of Palestinian statehood and seems to possibly reflect pressure on DailyKos's moderators to tamp down divisive argument over the US alliance with Israel.
Simone is not just any blogger. His strong voice for Palestinian rights coupled with the sheer breadth of his knowledge of Palestinian, Arab and Israeli culture, history and current events including keen analyses makes him unique. On DailyKos, he ran a blog called Arab Sources which focused on translating the Arab press making available Palestinian and Arab viewpoints, something that became essential to the community during the Arab Spring this year. As a Palestinian Israeli fluent in Arabic, Hebrew, and English, he is able to provide broad, vital insight and analyses of issues encompassing the whole region and as an academic he has written numerous articles for the Arab press.
Recently he has been involved in initiating and organizing advocacy for the Palestinian bid for statehood at the UN. He was on the verge of publishing several original analyses of the Syrian and Libyan revolutions with translations from the Arab press through Arab Sources at DailyKos.
No reason has been given for Daud's banning, but he was banned from the site right after Markos Moulitsas announced a new policy of stomping down divisive argument that hurt the Democratic Party:
"If you accuse someone of being racist just because they criticize Obama? Zap! If you actually say something that is even borderline racist? Zap! If you advocate for third party? Zap! This is a Democratic site. Advocating primaries is okay. Advocating third party is not. If I see ratings pack behavior or messed up uprates or hides, I won't zap, but I'll pull ratings abilities. Hell, depending on my mood at that moment, I may zap anyway. My dev team is putting together cool reports that identify patterns, so my job will get easier, and I won't be shy in exercising them.I can't begin to care who started what."
Daud had little patience with the Democratic Party's love affair with Israel. This is how Daud described his mission on DailyKos.
The Palestinians and Israelis are yet to engage in peace discussions.
On the Israeli side all negotiations have effectively been about finding a compromise between the Israeli right and the Israeli left over the extent of the sovereignty to be conceded to the various Palestinian refugee camps, villages, and cities controlled by the Israeli Army.
The US has traditionally accepted that the peace process is exclusively an Israeli issue, something to be negotiated between the right and left of Israel. In this view, Palestinians are peripheral in these negotiations and should at the very least accept in advance the Israeli left's proposals uncompromised by the views of the Israeli right.
Daud is a Palestinian who strives to bring the Palestinian cause into American political discourse. He isn't satisfied or 'happy' to be represented by the Zionist left. And they in turn sought to smear him as an anti-Semite. For Daud, the Palestinian cause is owned by the Palestinian People. Apparently that was too much for many self defined 'liberal' Zionists who see no place for Palestinians in any advocacy having to do with Israel.
This banning is another example of the sustained campaign against the Palestinian and Arab posters at DailyKos, by self defined 'liberal Zionists' whose primary interest is promoting Zionism and supporting the U.S. alliance with Israel. DailyKos has shown once again it is averse to Palestinian and Arab posters giving voice to their own aspirations or representing themselves, another example of Palestinians once again on the peripheral.
I guess this is where talking point 3 from the DNC conference has its rubber hit the pavement. Censoring Palestinians is just good fundraising policy.
I am not voting for a federal-level Democratic candidate ever again. At least Republicans are overt about their racism.
Chaos, you need to be strategic about your vote. Gone are the days (right now) where you can vote with your heart. Think of the result. Then extrapolate the consequences of that result out over time, because that consequence (not the result, not your action or vote) becomes the future.
i’m just grabbing a place on the top of the thread. someone at dkos has written about this and it is crazy hot.
i probably can’t read many of the comments because the tip jar is hidden. but this is a long time poster.
Best rant ever. Anyway to see if it gets any traction over there? The comments are all dour — like somebody came and whacked them with a 2×4, which I guess they did. Great read. Who is this guy? Phil and Adam could use writing like that. -N49.
I just went over to DK and read it. Loved it! Surprised the DK gestapo hasn’t taken it down by now.
But there is no tip jar for the dairy and only 27 comments now.
I fully expected to see some flashing sign when I signed in saying…YOU ARE BANNED …since I basically torched a thread about Mondo over there a few weeks ago and called Meteor Blades a jail bird turned turd keeper and insulted every zio I could find. Maybe I am too insignificant to get banned.
Anyway that place is down even further than it was last month…looks on it’s last legs to me. Marcos better find another source of income.
american, if you do not have enough ‘mojo’ to have ‘trusted user’ (TU) status you can’t see any comment that has been banned or follows the banned comment in the thread. there is no tip jar (for you) because it has already been ‘hidden’, hr’d (hide rated). this is where much of the abuse, defense, and argument takes place. any member in good standing can see, comment and rate hidden comments. poster can also pull comments out of the hiddens by reccing them and often competitions take place and then arguments ensude in later threads accusing people who rec’d hidden comments. the ratings take up a lot of conversation there. probably about 250,000 plus members have TU, at least.
btw, i have ‘lost my mojo’ during discussions where i was not even able to witness my own banning.
after Obama’s lame “jobs speech” where he seemed hoarse and as if even he didn’t believe what he was saying, I’m done with him – I’m going to support Bachmann or Perry or whichever Repug that will finish the job of destruction George W. Bush and Cheney’s dark army of zionist neocons started … Obama has only shifted the angle of approach to disaster by increments and slowed our collision course by seconds – he is essentially George W. Bush-lite or a black Gerald Ford … I thought I was getting a little bit of Angela Davis when I voted for Barack Obama, instead I got a major dose of Angela Merkel … Obama is a fraud and we must own up to that fact … he at last had a chance to be bold and do something grand and be the FDR we want him to be and once again he punted – a measly jobs campaign that invoked Republicans again and again a pathetic “pass this bill” chant
… as for Markos and Daily Kos – sure, he’s a glib talk-show guest but little more – Daily Kos has never really mattered and Markos has political ambitions so is anyone surprised by his hedging and folding?
I think Ralph Nader has been suggesting demoralized Progressives register as Republicans and vote for Ron Paul in the primary. Out of the Mid-East in a heartbeat.
Hej!
I don’t care, MRW. I’m not voting for any party of racists. Saying that I can’t vote what I believe in just tells me that there is no functional democracy and voting doesn’t fucking matter in the US anyway.
chaos, i’m inclined to agree with you. obama is, in many ways, worse than bush. if the number of eligible voters participating was down to the 20 or 30% level in federal elections, i think people might finally get a sense of what a friggin’ joke ‘democracy’ in america is.
You could vote for one of these.
link to sp-usa.org
link to jeffersonrepublican.blogspot.com
link to cpusa.org
link to usmjparty.com
Exactly! When are Americans going to figure out how democracy actually works? As if we’re limited to the Party of Hate, and the Party of Asskissers of the Party of Hate.
Thanks so much Annie for bringing this banning to our attention, here on another site expressing views so-called “liberal” DailyKos is afraid to air.
thanks bill. i’m a huge fan of simone daud and the incredible team of palestinian and arab posters at dkos. the abuse they endure is horrific. just horrific.
and a big shout out to adam and phil for hosting as always. thanks guys.
BTW..here’s something for you on DK’s main zionist activist and site censor advocate and shit stirrer…mets 102.
Wonder if Marcos knows his ‘progressive Jews’ hang out with the right wing competition for the common cause of Israel….LOL
link to karmafishies.blogspot.com
Visiting DK years back is one of the reasons I never associated myself with the ‘progressives” and also left the so called liberals.
DK has lost more dems for the dems than he has be able to keep.
i know, it’s so hypocritical because while posters get attacked for participating on this site everyone knows the vile nature of those sites some of team shalom hangout on. it’s so weird.
my understanding was you’re supposedly responsible for what you say at other sites. but these things are stuffed with islamophobia.
I looked at DailyKos for a grand total of about 120 minutes. There is nothing redeeming about it, and I’ve felt that way since 2007. Any good diaries get legs on other blogs, so no one is missing anything. It deserves a good sneer campaign , and to be robbed of time and eyes.
(Any arguments about some of the great stuff by a few contributors falls on deaf ears with me. I’ve preserved some DK diaries, excellent ones, but I didn’t get there because I frequent the place; I got to them via links from people I respect. DKs foundational principles are wrong. The guy managing/owning the place is unimpressive. There isn’t a noble bone in his body, no transcendence, unlike the ownership here.)
i very much admire every team adalah diary. book mark that link. they are excellent. the threads..not so much!
There are a few people who post diaries at DK in areas which are of interest to me that I am not likely to get elsewhere (only because there’s alimit to how many sites I can visit in a day).
For example, there’s a guy (forgot his handle) who’s an expert on Hurricanes. He gives totally wonky analysis of the Hurricanes’ progress, and to the best of my knowledge has no blog and does not post elsewhere. My guess is that he’s working for NOAA and shares inside information. So he’s useful when high wind stuff happens, especially if one may be in the way.
There’s teacherken who posts on education sometimes, usually with many good links, and there’s Dark Syde on science, who’s worth glancing at to get a run down of the latest happenings in one place. I discovered david Sirota there (though he no longer posts with DK) and a few others. Especially like it when slinkerwink has something up because the comments go bat-shit crazy – like a proper circus. It’s enjoyable in the way roller coasters are, which admittedly is not to everyone’s taste. And there are a couple of others I might read, none on political issues, which is where DK sucks. A lot of the diaries are too juvenile to even read through, much less worth commenting on and they have way too many rant-of-the-day diaries, which are well, pointless. Oh yes, and about 1/3 is just pure republican bashing, which is really a cheap thrill (what’s not to bash?).
Unfortunately, DK snared Chris Bower after which Open left could not keep going. For that alone I can’t forgive them since Open left was actually a progressive site (even on I/P though they didn’t touch foreign affairs too often). Chris has a paying job as an operative with them. Too bad that people need to make a living. It’s a curse, what can I say?
i’m really hoping we can recruit simone to write for us sometime. crossing my fingers.
Great idea annie.
The DKos is a failure if success meant promoting intellectual debate about important issues.
It’s a success in that it’s Establishment and censors views that aren’t in line with corporate interest, etc.
Once again the fear of the Palestinian cause being heard, and in this case with unimpeachable integrity and articulacy. If you are terrified that voters might make up their own minds when they hear the reality of Israel’s wanton cruelty to Palestinians, then all you can do is try to censor the information, and pretend that all these viewpoints are ‘anti-semitic’ or ‘terrorists’ or any of the other standard dismissive manoeuvres which are now jaded and shop worn. And once again these gatekeepers, who fear truth and worship at the altar of Zionist exceptionalism, pay lip service to the ideals of free speech and free thought and debate, which can only ever take place when people can make up their own minds and are provided with all of the facts, from across the spectrum. They should be ashamed, but their weird mixture of insecurity and arrogance, their adoption of the bullying tactics of their preferred state, blinds them to their own stupidity. You want peace, a real peace? Then let’s hear from everybody without censors and filters, without smears and character assassinations. You can smell the fear in the air of these self-appointed charlatans, cheerleading the occupation of a country, as they patrol the parameters of what is allowable for US citizens to know, or even discuss. Mondoweiss is head and shoulders above these cretins, no wonder they try to defame it.
“And they in turn sought to smear him as an anti-Semite.”
Quote please. I’m not familiar with SD, though he sounds great. It is entirely possible that he did post something anti-Semitic. I’ve no idea. And I have no idea if he was smeared. Both seem possible, absent some quotes.
sure, here. if you will notice wrt the commentary on the rest of the thread, there is a strike going on by palestinian and arab members and their supporters at this time due to a ‘sweep’ of banning of their supporters and attacks such as these. i was one of the people caught up in the sweep for false charges of sockpuppetry which were later rescinded.
Thank you annie. That link did a good job of explaining what was going on. Without claiming to be an expert, it seems that a)DS was indeed pushing the DK boundaries, b)I don’t think he’s an antisemite, but I saw things he wrote that feel borderline in a way common on this site (denies Jewish peoplehood), and c) the I/P issue really is a challenge for progressives. Even a group like J Street finds it hard to navigate progressive waters.
I’ll say this: as an Israel Jew who was part of Hadash, I always stood up to other Jews who tried to deny Palestinian Israelis any little bit of their equal rights. Not in solidarity; it was simply that this was a united party. We had a united identity. We fought for the rights of ‘the people’ made up of Jews, Palestinians, and others. When I meet Palestinian Israelis, I feel an affinity towards them that is stronger at times than the affinity I feel towards other American Jews. Part of me finds it hard to think of Palestinian Israelis as ‘them.’ It’s ‘us.’ (While recognizing that all of us have other identities, perhaps even more important identities.)
For that reason, it makes me sad to read some of the overarching, generic bashing of Israeli Jews for the assumed guilt of simply being Israeli Jews. I think of some of my close relationships with Palestinian Israeli friends, who would (I feel) include me when thinking of ‘Israeli Jews.’
oh, so i take it you think shlomo sands is possibly an anti semite? is that what you mean. and people who don’t buy the ‘people are nations’ theory are they bordering on racism also in your ‘not claiming to be an expert’ opinion.
have you read liberating the palestinian voice by rania?
newclencher, this is another diary i thought might interest you called Israel: Protesters Responsible for Their Own Deaths by soysouce, another palestinian poster at dkos.
i cited this same diary in my post here called Daily Kos, anti-semitism, & the zombie peace process. check out the comments in soysauce’s excellent diary if you are interested in the kind of abuse arab and palestinians have to endure over at that site and this was back when there was a moderator. i’m not sure who’s really moderating nowadays. also check out the blockquotes in my article here. you might find it instructive.
I did read rania’s piece. It think she is conflating things. There are many Palestinians who have voice without, generally, being accused of anti-semitism. Sayyed Kshua comes to mind. But not just. Even Joseph Massad has a good record of not being an antisemite. The Jerusalem Fund/Palestine Center does a great job of avoiding anti-semitism, no one could accuse them of shilling for Israel. ADC at the national level is good as well.
That said, OF COURSE there are folks on the margins who define any Palestinian voice in the public sphere as possibly anti whatever. Better to marginalize them then treat them as representative.
Shlomo Zand isn’t an anti-semite. He doesn’t deny Jewish peoplehood. He only points out that like just about every other ethnicity, it relies in large part of foundation myths. That’s true for Palestinians as well! One can assert that foundation myths exist without detracting from group identity one iota. Not only that, but Zand supports the creation of a strong Israeli identity that will be inclusive of Jews and Palestinians, thus laying the seeds for yet another strong, newly created identity.
Beware anyone who says ‘that identity is false/has no right to exist, but this other one over here is authentic.’ All national identities are alike in this respect, so singling out the Jews is the problem, not the solution.
I want to be careful to treat others with respect, even if I disagree with them. So…. it’s more about saying that a particular idea is X, not that someone who expresses it is X. I’d rather not call people names or assign them labels if it can be helped…. Everyone is a little bit racist, as a puppet once told me.
I see a basic and glaring contradiction in what you said, newclench (clencher?):
We fought for the rights of ‘the people’ made up of Jews, Palestinians, and others.
and this
b)I don’t think he’s an antisemite, but I saw things he wrote that feel borderline in a way common on this site (denies Jewish peoplehood)
As I understand you, as a member of Hadash you understand that Palestinians and others, as well as Jews, are important and equal elements of the “peoplehood” of Israelis. Great.
But then you claim that its borderline anti-semitic for a Palestinian, Israeli or not, to believe that Jews are a religion/and or an ethnicity, but not a “people”, whatever that means. And apparently these days it primary meaning is that Jews have more rights (and are entilted to more rights) in Israel than any other Israeli citizens, or occupied residents under Israeli control.
I totally approve of the Hadash mentality. But I don’t see the need to cling to a “peoplehood” division that runs at odds to it. “Peoplehood” just sounds like another excuse for Jewish racism in Israel to me. ‘We’re a people so we get to rule over you. You can rule over yourselves over there( …someday, maybe, if we feel like letting you, and, of course, subject to our “needs”) but here we rule and you don’t. ‘ If you really care about democracy then that idea has to go. Let it go. Its a crutch for inequality and injustice.
“We fought for the rights of ‘the people’ made up of Jews, Palestinians, and others. When I meet Palestinian Israelis, I feel an affinity towards them ”
This is the seed of hope inherent in the J14 demonstrations, common cause around common themes.
Newclench,
For that reason, it makes me sad to read some of the overarching, generic bashing of Israeli Jews for the assumed guilt of simply being Israeli Jews.
You’re going to run into that here on this blog, and I understand the sadness. I do it, even though sometimes I cringe because I know there’s a tacit implication that I am implicating Israeli Jews like Shmuel and Danaa, significant contributors here, in my sometimes intemperate remarks, when I’m most definitely not.
But it’s a shorthand dictated by time in our lives more than anything else. No different than the broad brush bashing of Americans by Europeans (and Israelis), especially during the Bush II years.
The question was about whether or not to ban Shlomo Sand’s book at dailykos. A book by a leftwing Israeli Professor who was active in Matzpen in the 1970′s, and who I know personally. There was a move to ban that book because it questioned the essentially European notion of peoplehood altogether.
I reject repeatedly, openly, vocally, and publicly the idea of a Palestinian peoplehood. As I reject the European secular notion of Jewish peoplehood.
Of course, I am influenced by Nichola Jaber, the premier leftwing intelectual of Israel. However, on both I am influenced by Rambam’s work, the first non-secular book I got a hold of in my coming-off-age. You will also notice that one of the ongoing charges of anti-semitism against me on dailykos was related to my insistance on defending Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the most important Halachic authority of our time. Further, I insisted on correcting wild ideas about Jewish traditions. In fact, I found that I got on best with observant Jews who happened on that forum. I mean these guys have no clue about anything to do with Judaism, Jewish customs, Jewish literature and traditions. It’s like they came to dailykos armed on the one hand with that awful book “the case for Israel” and a short colorful pamphlet about Judaism.
Now I am a citizen of the self defined state of the Jewish people. I
am an Israeli intelectual. I have engaged that society, and come from a family that has been engaged in that society for generations. I grew up in the Jewish state, consuming Hebrew literature and Jewish religious writings. It is ridiculous to promote the perspective that I do not own and share Jewish culture and heritage. I own it as much as you do, despite the fact that Israel treats me as a second class citizen because I am not registered as a Jew in their population registry (there is some irony to the fact that the Daud clan of the Galilee is considered foreign in this state).
Now I’d like to point out that I am open about my active membership of Hadash, being part of the long history of rakah/maki, and heralding from a family that setup the communist party in Palestine. Indeed, if you saw my page and the icon that I use you would have recognized the provenance of my public advocacy. If you had read amy writing you would have recognized it.
But you didn’t!
I am also familiar with people in Israel who whenever faced with chalenges to the colonialism that they support, rush to the refuge of made up engagement in Hadash. I see that a lot in accademia.
If you only consider Shmuel and Dana in consideration of whether your comments are collectively punitive, then you’ve missed the point.
Newclench: I’m an American, who has spent several years in Latin America over the past couple of decades. I frequently encountered Latin Americans who showed “overarching, generic bashing” of Americans. Usually, after I explained that I opposed U.S. foreign policy — that I was in fact in Latin America to write against it — they desisted.
But a few did not. I found them sometimes irritating, but understandable given the awful history of U.S. intervention in their region. And, looking back, I found it was probably a healthy experience for me to be disliked, at least briefly and mildly, for something that was beyond my control — an experience that as a white American was entirely new for me.
welcome simone. it’s such an honor. i’m in momentary heaven.
Richard, what my remarks are to you does not supersede what they mean.
I have control over what they mean; I have no control how you take them.
James North,
I second that enforced reality being a healthy experience. It’s like working for a company for 10-20 years. You think that particular corporate culture is all there is. You judge other corporate cultures through that prism. Then, as happened to me, I became a consultant for years walking into corporate cultures aplenty, and saw the cat’s cradles others were enmeshed in. It was revelatory. The self-organizations. The alliances. The enemies. The closed systems defining thought. The deception of individualism.
Then I started traveling a lot, and my Americanism was the target. I read their papers, and understood their anger. It was also when I realized we don’t walk our talk.
So, you think I misinterpreted?
Your acceptance of the humanity of Israelis, the dignity, the self-determination, is limited to a very very small tent.
A large tent of Palestinians deserve the respect of human beings, understanding of reasoning, even if disagreement. A large of tent of Israelis deserve the respect of human beings, understanding of reasoning, even if disagreement.
Or, are all Zionists inhuman beasts in your mind?
You commented that “you control your meaning”, with the prospect that your posts may be misconstrued. I would hope that you offer similar “control over my meaning” to me, and not seek to expropriate it as North consistently misrepresents.
“at least briefly and mildly, for something that was beyond my control”
Good point.
“It was also when I realized we don’t walk our talk.”
Please consider your behavior in your dissent critically as well.
“All national identities are alike in this respect, so singling out the Jews is the problem, not the solution”
I think obsessing about “identities” is the problem.
But I’m pleased to see you on the side of integrating Jews and Palestinians in I/P.
Simone, I see you as my brother. Nothing I said was meant to implicate you in anything foul, or denounce your thoughtful and reasoned opinions. We may disagree over this or that notion of peoplehood, and I might not like your opinion, I certainly haven’t researched it well, but I can say this: the minute you place criticism of Jewish peoplehood within a context of critique of nationalism in general, you escape what sometimes seems like a particular focus on the Jews that makes me uncomfortable.
I hope we meet someday. There was once an unofficial group of Hadashniks active in the US. Perhaps one may exist again? At minimum, it would be cool to host a speaking tour of some of those voices.
I don’t buy the Jews as some distinct ‘people’ in the way the zionist describe them. And I didn’t buy it even before Sand’s excellent book on the subject because it’s plain nonsense.
And there is nothing anti semitic about denying that Jews are some ‘convoluted’ ethnic, race, ancient tribe still existing in 2011.
The zios can’t even come up with a coherent definition of what makes the Jews a ‘people” that isn’t a total magicians trick.
They are people with a common religion that affects their culture, nothing more, nothing less, not some mythical group separate from the rest of the human race.
“But it’s a shorthand dictated by time in our lives more than anything else. No different than the broad brush bashing of Americans by Europeans (and Israelis), especially during the Bush II years”
Yes it is…exactly.
Meh. People get to define themselves for the most part. I’m a Jew. I’m part of a people. I do not think we have a god given right to the Land of Israel. God is not a real estate agent. And we don’t have moral justification to deny equal rights to anyone living in a society where we have power.
If accepting Jewish peoplehood leads inexorably to racism, then why don’t I support legally sanctioned inequality?
FYI, SD probably does know more about Jewish culture than many American Jewish supporters of Israel. Israeli reality is bizarre, and defines easy definition on so many fronts.
“If you only consider Shmuel and Dana in consideration”
Showing consideration to English any time soon, Witty?
If accepting Jewish peoplehood leads inexorably to racism, then why don’t I support legally sanctioned inequality?
strawman?
newclench, sometimes it is difficult to keep track of comments in a long thread, so i do not know if anyone made the argument that accepting Jewish peoplehood leads inexorably to racism. i know i didn’t. if you think you are ‘part of a people’ i would not call you racist for that. i just do not want to be called a racist for not being in the ‘peoplehood’ genre. i respect tribes but i consider them..more intimate perhaps …more related to people connected geographically or in other ways. i don’t want buy into a concept of ‘peoplehood’ designed for political gain. i’m not talking just israel. but here in the US, are we a ‘people’? so why might we be called a people joined by land/geography/culture that is american and yet your identification as a jew is as a ‘nation’, being israel i presume. i understand this notion of ‘peoplehood’ is not very old. i’m just not sure i like it. so i am not buying into it.
RoHa – to put it bluntly and on the line, what trauma has your people gone through in the last 500 years and if you are only an individual what is your attitude towards any group not defined only by geography?
I don’t know who your historical icons are and what role they play in your life, but currently my historical icons are negative ones- Hitler and Stalin and I am still reacting to that. you want to call it obsession, call it what you will. what do you know about groups and group trauma?
annie- Jewish peoplehood includes the traumas of the last century and large changes in population distribution towards the USA and Israel. Certainly the move to Israel with the force involved in such a move is more than just a population distribution but an expression of sovereignty over a piece of land due to Jewish identification, using prayers and motifs and folk tales and holy books and holy ceremonies as proof of the land’s central place in creation and our connection to it.
The move away from nationalism and away from certain forms of religion is the zeitgeist. The consciousness of history rather than living in the present is also against the American zeitgeist.
“All they understand is force,” is the unfortunate consequence of living by the sword in a hostile neighborhood of doing what is logical and necessary for national survival. Israel is currently the least safe place for a Jewish person, you might say. But there again you are consulting the present tense rather than the past.
The path of history was a path of violence and still is a path of violence and the fact that “next year in Jerusalem” mentions a real city in a real world with a real conflict between two peoples where the current tense application of violent means is oppressive is a “negative koan paradox” of sorts that puts Yehudim in a spot of self contradiction if current tense ideals are not being met or even declared to be desired by the administration in charge of the army that flies the Jewish flag.
I saw things he wrote that feel borderline in a way common on this site (denies Jewish peoplehood),
Only a “people” are entitled to exercise a right of self-determination under international law, but the scope of that right has a territorial limit. Zionists use the term in a divergent, extraterritorial way. Insofar as self-determination is a human right involving the political status of a polity or territory, a “people” cannot be defined in terms of mere ethnic identity, because if it were, participation in the political process of a nation would then be conditioned solely on the basis of ethnic characteristics (apartheid), which is contrary to Article 1(3) of the UN Charter and the very idea of individual human rights. See Self-determination and National Minorities, Oxford Monographs in International Law, Thomas D. Musgrave, Oxford University Press, 1997, page xv.
The development of international law in regard to non-self-governing territories (e.g. Palestine), as enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, made the principle of self-determination applicable to all of them. In the Namibia case the ICJ rejected the notion that the right could be practically restricted to some kind of autonomy and local self-government on the basis of the cultural divisions in the Territory. The Court said “This in effect means a denial of self-determination as envisaged in the Charter of the United Nations.” The Court explained:
link to icj-cij.org
That means national minorities “come with the territory” and the Jewish people can’t become a “nation” in the territory of Palestine by excluding its own national minorities. The problem with Zionists is that they want to exercise their own brand of self-determination on an extraterritorial basis – and on behalf of all Jews. They want to impose their anachronistic ideals on all of the rest of us, but they never had a legal mandate to do such a thing.
In an April 20, 1964 letter to Rabbi Elmer Berger of the American Council for Judaism from Assistant Secretary Phillips Talbot, the State Department confirmed that it “does not recognize a legal-political relationship based upon religious identification of American citizens. It does not in any way discriminate among American citizens upon the basis of religion. Accordingly, it should be clear that the Department of State does not regard the “Jewish people” concept as a concept of international law.” See Whiteman’s Digest of International Law, Volume 8, U.S. Dept. of State, U.S. Govt. Print. Office, 1967, page 35
Many anti-Zionist Jews deny Jewish “peoplehood” because the Balfour declaration stipulated that nothing was supposed to prejudice the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews living in any other country. Those Jews who established their national home in Palestine were supposed to become “Palestinian”, not “Israel”. In 1950 Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion was forced to agree to an “entente” in which he made a statement that American Jews are not in exile.
The Israeli Supreme Court nonetheless refuses to allow the creation of either a Zionist or an Israeli nationality that is local in scope and limited to its own enfranchised citizens. The Court said that to agree to a demand for such a thing could lead to a schism in the Jewish people. Supreme Court President, Justice Agranat said that “the wish of a handful of Jews to break away from the nation and create a new concept of an Israeli nation was not a legitimate aspiration.” The court’s decision also said, among other things: “There is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people. . . . The Jewish people is composed not only of those residing in Israel but also of Diaspora Jewries.” See HCJ 630/70 Tamarin v. State of Israel [1970] IsrSC 26(1) 197
When the Arab Socialist party refused to accept the principle that Israel was the state of the Jewish people, the Central Election Commission decided to disqualify the list on the grounds that it was “an unlawful association, because its promoters deny the territorial integrity of the state of Israel and its very existence” See David Kretzmer, The Legal Status of the Arabs in Israel, Boulder: Westview, 1990, page 24.
The legal views of the owners of that territory were summed-up in the words of the Justice Elon, the Deputy President of the Supreme Court:
–cited in Yoav Peled, Ethnic Democracy and the Legal Construction of Citizenship: Arab Citizens of the Jewish State, The American Political Science Review, Vol. 86, No. 2 (Jun., 1992), pp. 432-443.
So Israel is not a nation in the modern sense of the term. It does not accept the national minorities that share the same territory and it conditions participation in the political process of the nation solely on the basis of ethnic characteristics. Jews living elsewhere have no say in these matters, so the principle of “peoplehood”, territorial self-determination, and antisemism are completely irrelevant. It’s apartheid that gets the lion’s share of attention on this site – and rightly so.
…only for those without a backbone Newclench.
At a fundamental level I think most people do know the difference between right and wrong, and that what Israel has done and is doing to Palestinians for 6+ decades is very very wrong.
It’s not necessary to complicate it any more than that, and there are no ‘buts’ and ‘maybes’.
Finding an appropriate resolution is not so clear cut, but most definitely, the US shielding of Israel from the consequences of their actions since 1972* with the SC veto is not helping. With all disciplinary checks in international law short-circuited by the veto, instead of moderating it’s behaviour, Israel has run wild. The US is actually facilitating Israel’s national suicide.
*after Israel bombed refugees camps in Lebanon and Syria in revenge attacks after the Munich Olympics, killing *hundreds* of refugees.
“So Israel is not a nation in the modern sense of the term. It does not accept the national minorities that share the same territory and it conditions participation in the political process of the nation solely on the basis of ethnic characteristics. ”
That is actually false. Even in defining its peoplehood, it does allow for equal political participation on the basis of one- person one-vote.
Apartheid is not the application of ethnic definition of nation-hood, it is the suppressive application of people defined nation-hood, and in particular forms in which a minority separates and rules over a majority.
In the West Bank that is the case, and also partially not. In Israel itself, its not the case.
wj
Ooh, 500 hundred years…
On Dad’s side, his father’s family was Irish, so that’s what, 700years worth? His mother’s family a mix of Scots and Jewish – and the Scots had a rotten time of it during the enclosures, a helluva lot of death by starvation when thrown off their lands by the wealthy few. The other one you know, but up til marry out I suppose, in the latter half of the 19th century (one of the children in his family was born at sea when his parents left eastern Europe). Added to the mix, my sisters kids have the heritage of the Armenian genocide, and my sons kids (thru his ma-in-law) will have gypsy heritage. I’m reliably informed the first is in the er, planning stages for some time next year. Is that enough traumatic legacy?
That’s demonstrably false. Israel is a segregationist society that has racist laws inteded to deny equal political participation. The arab partied for example, are legally prohibited from forming coalitions.
Israelis apartheid inside and out. Zionism is rascism.
Palestinians in Israel get to vote, assemble, speak, write, run for and serve in public office, have full access to public services, professions.
And, in their political associations, they can form Arab parties, communist parties, non-Zionist civil parties, or Zionist parties.
EVERY perspective, every ethnicity, is a minority and doesn’t directly get what they want.
Palestinians in Lebanon or Syria don’t vote, can’t speak, assemble, write, run for office, nor can serve in any leadership role anywhere.
Israel itself is nowhere near perfect, and nowhere near describable as institutionally racist.
Twaddle! Piffle! Idiocy!
RW
Nowhere near institurionally racist???
Does it have laws enshrining equal rights for all its citizens tWitty? or does it have rights enshrining Jewish privilege? Can a non-Jew live wherever s/he chooses, BUY or RENT a home anywhere in the land? or are there laws and schemes that prevent that? Can a non-Jew sue a firm for discrimination in hiring/firing or promotion issues? And so on and so forth ad bloody infinitum! Are you intentionally dense, or just attempting to distract? Shingo just said the Arab parties are not permitted to form coalitions together, despite the current govt being a coalition of several non-Arab parties (plus 1 Arab, is that right?) – what the hell does institutional racism have to be for you to see it before your short-sighted eyes?
Shut up Witty, you have no idea what you are talking about. Palestinians in Israel are 3rd calss citizens who are alienated and disceiminated against by the state. Arab parties are denied the right to form coalitions, thereby preventing them from accruing political influence, so wheter they can form political parties or not is meaningless
It’s much much worse. Israel is a facist apartheid state. That’s why even you don’t want to live there.
There are Arabs in most of the Zionist parties as well as Hadash. They can form alliances with willing other parties. There will be a time when that will happen, especially if the J14 efforts are continued.
I have consistently spoken of the need for reform. But I also appreciate greatly.
Israel is NOT as segregated internally as your language reflects. Its time to represent the society, not misrepresent it.
The representation itself compels reform. It doesn’t need your malevolent caricature.
By the way, “shut up” is not exactly a progressive theme.
That means national minorities “come with the territory” and the Jewish people can’t become a “nation” in the territory of Palestine by excluding its own national minorities.
Justice Elon said: “there is nothing in the principle of the equality of civil rights and obligations to modify the principle that the State of Israel is the state of the Jewish people, and only the Jewish people.”
it starts with the idea of ‘a’ people who then think of themselves as a ‘nation’ which is a mental contortions of sorts…then it extends to a state. but a state is a political construct. these things are not all interchangeable. as if because a people=nation and nation=state then a state is exclusive to the people (of only the ones belonging to the nation). it’s bizarre.
“So Israel is not a nation in the modern sense of the term. It does not accept the national minorities that share the same territory and it conditions participation in the political process of the nation solely on the basis of ethnic characteristics. ”
That is actually false. Even in defining its peoplehood, it does allow for equal political participation on the basis of one- person one-vote.
It outlaws every political party that denies that Israel is the state of the Jewish people (and only the Jewish people) and it defines Jewish peoplehood to exclude all of its national minorities. So yes, Israel conditions equal political participation on the basis of Jewish ethnic characteristics and accordingly excludes lists of candidates who disagree with that policy and practice.
Apartheid is not the application of ethnic definition of nation-hood, it is the suppressive application of people defined nation-hood, and in particular forms in which a minority separates and rules over a majority.
I just cited one example of political suppression based upon ethnic criteria and you tried to deny that it existed. Here is another: 76,000 Bedouin citizens in 45 villages have lower priority than trees in the Israeli national and regional development plans. They have no representation in local councils or in planning and administrative bodies. They are subject to home demolitions, destruction of their crops by “green patrols”, land confiscation, or transfer to reservations that function as concentration camps.
FYI, Apartheid is defined as inhumane acts committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.
We’ve been discussing one of the constituent acts of the crime of apartheid in connection with the refusal to recognize Beduoin citizens and afford them equal representation:
Israel uses legislation and ministerial regulations to systematically oppress and dominate its Arab citizens as a matter of policy and practice. For example, one-man-one-vote has nothing whatever to do with the seats reserved for the representatives of the JNF on the Israeli Land Commission, settlement admission committees, and other statutory bodies used to manage and control the Arab sector. Here is a link to a list of other discriminatory statutes and regulations: link to mondoweiss.net
The UN Fact Finding Mission to Gaza noted that the apartheid system in the occupied territories was simply the result of applying the laws used against Arabs in Israel:
The elephant in your room Richard is Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. 44 years into the occupation, the majority of them having lived their entire lives under Israel’s iron fist.
We can all see them, why can’t you? The situation is a little more serious that “nowhere near perfect”, it is apartheid. One apartheid state of Israel across all of mandate Palestine.
Irrelevant. Only Zionist parties can form coalitions. Thne J14 movement has nothing to do with changing that.
Apartheid Southa Africa also needed reform to end apartheid.
Stop the BS Witty.
Segregation of Jews and Arabs in 2010 Israel is Almost Absolute
link to haaretz.com
Perhaps, but it is currently necessary.
it starts with the idea of ‘a’ people who then think of themselves as a ‘nation’ which is a mental contortions of sorts…then it extends to a state. but a state is a political construct. these things are not all interchangeable. as if because a people=nation and nation=state then a state is exclusive to the people (of only the ones belonging to the nation). it’s bizarre.
Under public international law, a people can exercise their right to self-determination by opting for incorporation into an existing state. See Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, UNGA Res. 2625(XXV) That is exactly what the Zionists did when they decided to join their brethren in Palestine; establish their national home there; and acquire Palestinian citizenship.
Not every nation is considered a “nation-state”. Since the mid-19th century, any national minorities have always been included, by definition, in the permanent population of new nation-states. We’ve discussed the fact in the past that cessions of territory and sovereignty are always conditioned upon terms of equality and non-discrimination for any religious or minority groups that live within the boundary of the territory. The request of the Zionist organization for a national home “secured by public law” and for statehood wasn’t treated any differently. You can read all about that here: link to mondoweiss.net
The UN Charter protects the “political independence” and “territorial integrity” of nation-states. States as polities have “a permanent population” -which includes any national minorities – and “a government” over “a defined territory”. If you review the Central Election Committee’s comments about “territorial integrity” and Justice Elon’s comments, you’ll see they intentionally excluded the permanent Arab population from their definition of the state.
Simoned noted that policy and practice: “there is some irony to the fact that the Daud clan of the Galilee is considered foreign in this state”. The Gaza Fact Finding Mission also underscored that side effect of applying Israel’s domestic laws – with their two-tiered civil status – throughout the occupied territories: “Administrative procedures qualify indigenous inhabitants of the Occupied Palestinian Territory as “alien persons” and, thus, prohibited from building on, or renting, large portions of land designated by the Government of Israel as “State land”.
It really doesn’t matter if you’re a Palestinian citizen of Israel, the Occupied Territory, or a refugee, Israel has legislation or official regulations aimed at denying your basic human rights in violation of its international obligations. The Reut Institute suggestion that delegitimization means “the rejection of the right of the Jewish people to self-determination or of the State of Israel to exist” doesn’t pass the laugh test. Neither Self-determination of people nor statehood implies a right or an excuse to commit wrongful acts against national minority groups.
. If you review the Central Election Committee’s comments about “territorial integrity” and Justice Elon’s comments, you’ll see they intentionally excluded the permanent Arab population from their definition of the state.
yes, that was the idea i was part trying to convey. it seems they are trying to co op a definition of nation and applying it to redefine state, when they are not the same. perhaps justifying the application of the definition of nation for purposes of legality when identifying their state. thanks , i will check out your link. i realize we’ve discussed this before. it seems to me there’s a lot of framing and redefining going on but no change in agenda, ever.
WJ –
“what trauma has your people gone through in the last 500 years”
And you start with the presumption that there is a group that I can meaningfully call “my people”. What would make such a group “mine”? I don’t own any groups. Is it that I am a member of that group? I am a member of a number of groups. Which one counts as “my people”?
Second, what would a trauma of 500 years ago (or even more recently) have to do with “identifying”?
“ if you are only an individual what is your attitude towards any group not defined only by geography?”
What sort of attitudes, and what sort of group? Am I supposed to disapprove of people being members of a photography club or International Society for Philosophical Enquiry?
“I don’t know who your historical icons are and what role they play in your life“
I don’t know what you mean by “historical icon”, but right now I suspect I haven’t got any. If you mean “people I admire”, I’ll start with Bertrand Russell and Thomas Paine.
“Hitler and Stalin and I am still reacting to that.”
As far as I can make out, Hitler died before you were born. Stalin died when you were very young. What did they do to you?
“you want to call it obsession, call it what you will.”
Thanks. I will call it obsession. Seems unhealthy to me.
“what do you know about groups and group trauma?”
Clearly not enough, which is why I ask what the point of this “identifying” is.
But I get no answers.
“doing what is logical and necessary for national survival. ”
Jews managed to survive for centuries without it.
But why is “national survival” necessary?
“a hostile neighborhood”
The neighbourhood was made hostile by Zionists “doing what is logical and necessary for national survival”.
“Is that enough traumatic legacy?”
Probably not, and most of it is the wrong sort anyway.
“76,000 Bedouin citizens in 45 villages have lower priority than trees”
Well, gee, Hostage, who would you rather have as a neighbour? A swarthy, unshaven, wild-eyed, Jew-hating, fanatical Bedawi who has probably served in the Israeli Army and thus been trained in murderous violence, or a nice, quiet, tree?
Define antisemitism first. And give an example that isn’t so blatant.
In another thread a commentator named longliveisrael said that an exhibit of art created by Palestinian children is ‘anti-Israel’ in intent and nature.
In Canada, a book about a Palestinian child was protested by B’Nai Brith Canada. They were clearly opposed to the Palestinian experience being introduced to Canadian students.
http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/education/article/791906–controversial-mideast-book-stays-in-toronto-schools#comments
Why is a book about the Palestinian experience itself, anti-Israel?
SD was probably censored SIMPLY because he had good credentials, is intelligent AND most importantly a Palestinian with a Palestinian perspective among a website devoted to towing the Establishment line.
Cliff, You are misquoting me
“In another thread a commentator named longliveisrael said that an exhibit of art created by Palestinian children is ‘anti-Israel’ in intent and nature.”
I clearly stated that those who are working to have that art presented are anti-Israel. I also said that I fully supported having the children’s art exhibited for it’s own sake.
SD was probably censored SIMPLY because he had good credentials, is intelligent AND most importantly a Palestinian with a Palestinian perspective
absolutely cliff and we we’re having this discussion here just this week, how prescient of Danaa:
and what danaa says about not going after jewish israelis is perfectly true, for example assaf @ dkos, for the most part they leave him alone and don’t do in for the most humiliating type of harassment at all.
and i would also like to point out that these hunting fests go on in diaries with often perfectly good topics in the main posts worth discussing. but the topic de jure of team shalom and their cronies is accusations of anti semitism. it dominates many a discussion over there. that is why i made such a big deal about it over here the other day.
This comment is indirectly connected with the ‘DailyKos’ ban of Simone Daud, but it is a vital connection. Zionist pressure may have led to his banning, but looming behind everything having to do with Israel in the United States is Christian Zionism. It is a black hole which our politics is increasingly being sucked into and is warping the social fabric of our society. While Daily Kos’s actions may be motivated by a “liberal Zionism” they will have to answer to history for their role is aligning with this reactionary movement.
There is a good article on the Al Jazeera website about this:
“Exposing religious fundamentalism in the US: The US media has been downplaying a radical Christian theology that is increasingly influential in the Republican Party.” It is at:
link to tinyurl.com
While Daily Kos’s actions may be motivated by a “liberal Zionism” they will have to answer to history for their role is aligning with this reactionary movement.
Liberal Zionism is a reactionary movement itself and always has been. It simply couches racism in a more genteel fabric. Liberal Zionists were responsible for ethnic cleansing, aggressive wars, occupation, closure, curfew, racial segregation and the settlements. Its has very natural alliance with Christian reactionary forces.
“…Liberal Zionists were responsible for ethnic cleansing, aggressive wars, occupation, closure, curfew, racial segregation and the settlements. Its has very natural alliance with Christian reactionary forces…”
Absolutely!
So when Israel finally implodes the Liberal Zionists, who have turned a blind eye to their supposed enemies financing the settlements, will have only themselves to blame.
A 2010 article showing another example of the Jewish Establishment silencing other “articulate” I/P peace advocates.
– Zeek Suspends Hagee Coverage Under Political, Legal Assault
link to richardsilverstein.com
“Israelis are people too”.
“Israelis are people too”.
So were Southern whites in the Jim Crow South. It doesn’t mean that they can’t be racists. Racism is a common human failing. Papering that over does not solve the problem. People’s failings should be examined, criticized and confronted in order to rectify harmful ideas and behaviors. Turning a blind eye, and posting platitudes like “(Fill in the blank) are people too” does nothing but excuse harmful behavior.
I bore a prejudicial fear and hatred of southerners for 30 years or so. My prejudices against southerners were more severe than against blacks, anyone. (I have had very close friends that were black, but I still noticed residual fears based on myths.)
I successfully worked through my fears of blacks, even of Arabs (even as a Jew in conservative Islamic deep Cairo for example), moreso than my residual fear of southerners.
Five years ago, faced with the prospect of purchasing a few hundred thousand dollars of South African raisins at 2/3 the price of domestic for a cereal company that I was a financial manager, I actually wondered if the boycott of South Africa was still in effect.
The prejudice lingered.
“Israelis are people too”. When you dissent, don’t ever presume that you are dissenting against anything or anyone that is less human that you, however determined.
Not only are Israelis people, but Jews are A PEOPLE.
Q: “Israelis are people too”.
R: Once ‘they’ behave like ones ‘we’ can continue that discussion. As for now, all cards are stacked against ‘you,’ and individuals like yourself help in cementing an uncanny swirl of dislike, discourse and, unfortunately, in some cases downright hatred. Band aid does not cure the growth of cancer cells.
If Jews are A PEOPLE, what language do they speak, Richard?
They are people regardless of how some or even all of them behave, as Palestinians are people regardless of how some or all behave.
Richard, I repeat,
If Jews are A PEOPLE, what language do they speak?
“Jews are A PEOPLE”
What does that mean, and what does it imply? Why is it significant?
“I bore a prejudicial fear and hatred of southerners for 30 years or so. My prejudices against southerners were more severe than against blacks, anyone. (I have had very close friends that were black, but I still noticed residual fears based on myths.)”
You were afraid of southerners and blacks?
That is Very, Very weird witty, very weird.
I am Southern and I’ve never been afraid of Yankees……. or Blacks or Jews or Hispanics or Muslims.
This makes me think you have even larger problems than being a zionist.
It is a black hole which our politics is increasingly being sucked into and is warping the social fabric of our society.
If you check jewsonfirst.org, you’ll see that the far-right Israeli Yisrael Beitenu party is intimately involved with both the Republican Jewish Coalition and John Hagee and his Christians United for Israel group; in fact, a Jew, David Brock, runs it.
Do you mean: David Brog?
“…Before his work with CUFI, Brog worked in the United States Senate for seven years, rising to be chief of staff to Senator Arlen Specter and staff director of the Senate Judiciary Committee…”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Arlen Specter, a Republican that the Democratic ‘nomination’ power brokers wanted to bring into the burning tent! Arlen, also well respected and loved by the PA jewish political community — noting no $$$ love appeared when Joe Sestak was finally chosen in the PA primary, by gasp, — the actual PA Democratic Party VOTERS.
– “…[Mark] Aronchik (“Jewish political fundraiser” – Jewish Exponent), who has been involved in Pennsylvania politics for decades, the community’s choice in this primary race is clear: “Jewish voters have an overwhelming sense of confidence and clarity on where he stands.”
And Specter seems to have confidence in his Jewish voters…”
link to forward.com
CUFI 2011 Washington Summit Speakers
link to cufi.org
Yeah, Brog. Sorry. I didn’t bother to doublecheck.
Which senator he worked for is immaterial. It’s called Christians United for Israel.
Frankly, I think jewsonfirst’s report lays out the symbiotic relationship between the Israeli far-right (what the hell is a former Israeli ambassador to the US doing writing an Islamophobic letter to Americans during an election cycle? That’s foreign influence in our elections and unlawful) and the Republican Jewish Coalition and Christian Zionists.
“…Which senator he worked for is immaterial…”
Ya think? Wow… I’m really really surprised! I guess you wouldn’t care about Jeremy Bash [AIPAC]. The Jewish establishment in the DEMOCRATIC PARTY was even going to be put this guy up against a Democratic candidate who dared to be even-handed with Israel. The symbiotic relationship is in both party. It maybe not so overt in the Democratic Party, and racist but it’s damn well there.
–Moran Seen To Face Primary Challenge
By Eli Kintisch
Published March 21, 2003, issue of March 21, 2003.
link to forward.com
Jeremy Bash who *worked* for Jane Harman — and was/IS Chief of Staff for Leon Panetta in the CIA ‘and’ DOD — and you really think these ‘AIPAC bit’ players and who they work/have worked for is immaterial too?
Nothing is Immaterial! There’s always a bigger picture.
You really think it’s only the Republican Jewish Coalition that cozy up to these guys?
Our current DEMOCRATIC NV Senate ‘nominee’ Shelley Berkley.
–”…U.S. Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.), one of [& you better believe there's more than one!] the more hard-line Democrats in Congress. ***Berkley told the group of Christian Zionists*** on Tuesday that “to pin the peace process” on the settlement issue “is absolutely foolhardy.”
To publicly dress down the State of Israel is a huge mistake,” she said to a huge ovation from the 4,000 delegates at the group’s fourth annual conference…”
link to jta.org
Both parties are at it.
And how could I forget the DEMOCRATS working with the whacko Christian right in the Congressional Israel Allies Caucus.
link to iiacf.org
Whose sister caucus in Israel also has members on Israel’s far right:
Knesset Christian Allies Caucus
link to cac.org.il
annie, interesting that I just brought up the “Palestinian professor” in a post just a couple of days ago. And here we are, bingo! the connection was to Haytham who was malevolently accused of anti-semitism by GF, and was taken aback that some posters here did not immediately call spade a spade. You were concerned – quite rightly – for the danger of a DK dynamics where excellent palestinian commenters – especially those who identify as Israelis – are accused of bigotry, leading to mud-slinging all around – in an attempt to run them out of town. I saw parallels between the treatment metted to haytham and Simone daud. It was just too strikingly similar not to be noticed. Which is 0ne reason I do not give GF the credit as a truly independent poster that others might. Way too many similarities to tactics used elsewhere to be a coincidence.
So here is, IMO, the crux of the matter: zionist americans view Israelis of Palestinian origins as enormous threat, because the latter are generally much more Israeli than they are, and many times (all the time?) are considerably more knowledgeable about all matters Israel. Basically, people like team shalom types – and GF here – are taken aback at what they see as confidence – the Israeli chutzpah dressed in arab garb. They just can’t take it from an Arab person (could be a Druz too, for all it matters) who is a real Israeli, and calls himself/herself so. How dare they? Yet, the “liberal’ (very small ‘l’) zionistas also know the sensitivity to the blood libel charge of ‘anti-semitism” by those who have been victims of ethnic cleansing by semites (jews) escaping persecution elsewhere.And that’s why they pile on them. Good thing that there are tough ones like Rania who seems able to give as good as she gets, and then some.
Truth is, there is an extremely poor relationship between American zionistas of the “liberal” variety and Israeli palestinians – of any conviction or background. The reasons are partly what I mention above, but that’s only skimming the surface of a very complex dynamics. Maybe I’ll be add more later, time permitting – on the interesting psychology at play the way I see it. Really a epic battle of exceptionalism resting on skimpy foundations with authenticity rooted in land, history and custom.
Not surprised that DK banned Daoud as part of the craven capitulation to the monied interests in the Democratic party. Just like the recent banishing of palestinian children’s exhibit or any other means of bringing authentic palestinian voices into the discourse in the US. All happening in the run up to the UN vote.
Please, by all means, let’s get Simone Daoud to post here, his viewpoints are enlightening and instructive for the many who don’t live there.
And mucho thanks for bringing this to our attention. Few can withstand the withering juvenility and false conviviality of DKos “community” – the none for all and all for none mentality keeps many of us away for long stretches. I do expect Dkos to become a democrat election headquarters and nothing much else.
Please, by all means, let’s get Simone Daoud to post here, his viewpoints are enlightening and instructive for the many who don’t live there.
believe me, we’ve already thought of that. what an opportunity.
i’m really glad you’re on line today and found this thread. yes of course i remember our conversation the other day about simone which led to rania making that comment we pulled for the front page as i recall. i will have to link to both of them.
i wrote phil and adam about getting your email because i was interested in discussing this topic with you more and getting another post up about it because of how important i think it is. i would like to email you some links. please email phil and adam to send along your email address please. my inbox is closed to people who have not been ‘pre approved’ so it would be better if it arrived from one of them so’s not to end up in spam.
thnx
i hope you stick around for the discussion. i’d like to keep this thread active for awhile. simone was really a pillar of the community over there. at least in my eyes and i know in the eyes of many others.
Done, annie – sent an e mail to Phil. Hope it works. Sometimes I wonder how much his and Adam’s boxes must get flooded….
thanks danaa. actually i was just checking my spam and intercepted about 8 failure/return emails from the last week (rare, i don’t know what’s up w/that) and the request to phil for your email was one of them. so he didn’t get it til an hr or so ago when i resent it.
Annie, how do you do that ‘pre-approved’ thing. What email client are you using? Apple Mail or something you pay for?
MRW, it is separate from my mail program on my mac which taps into my provider. my provider has a web preferences/spam options function. i get about 200-300 plus spams a day because i have had the same email address since forever. my provider offers a spam option, in my spam option i have a choice from 1 to ten. i am on highblock (10) which automatically blocks everything not on a list of email addresses i previously approve. i do have a separate email address for my listserves but it is not tied to my mac email program nor does it ‘ring’ me an alert i have an email. my regular email is for more private /urgent communications only.
“Which is 0ne reason I do not give GF the credit as a truly independent poster that others might. Way too many similarities to tactics used elsewhere to be a coincidence.”
If you mean he’s a paid agent, I don’t think this is strong evidence. What it shows is that people who embrace a certain philosophy tend to share the same prejudices. GF is pretty critical of Israeli violence, but I think he also has that fairly common tendency to see “anti-semitism” in harsh criticism of Israel from non-Jews. You see that everywhere. People aren’t paid to think that way, they absorb it as part of the air they breathe. It’s a meme, maybe the one crucial for causing non-Jews to feel reluctant to be harshly critical of Israel in public. We all know what some people will think and the thing is, they will be perfectly sincere about it in most cases, as screwed up as it is. (Presumably Jewish critics feel a slightly different pressure, the fear of being accused of “self hatred” or sucking up to the anti-semites.)
Simone Daud should just start a blog of his own which I know Mondoweiss would support. Also I just checked GoDaddy and relevant domain names are available. I would buy it and have it hosted myself if he wanted to use it.
that is a very generous offer tinywriting.
link to google.com
Criminal charges????…criminal?…For Muslim students who shouted down sleezy Amb Oren at a speech.
One of these days boys and girls, one of these days, all their shit stirring and slime spreading in this country will fall on their heads.
Who does the “their” refer to American?
He means Zionists.
And for anyone else who isn’t on eee’s wavelength, click his name to find the endless list of hateful comments he makes about Palestinians and Arabs.
There is no guess-work to be done. You’ll see for yourself.
Cliff,
Enough with your libel. Bring ONE quote that proves what you are saying. What I see is you supporting hateful statements about Zionists.
American is accusing Zionists of “shit stirring and slime spreading” in the US? Do you stand behind this hateful opinion?
Do you live under a rock eee?
Everyone knows the main zionist promoters of the anti Islam and anti Muslim and anti Arab hate in the US.
It’s been detailed about a zillion times right here on mondo.
It’s only a hateful opinion to you, to everyone else it’s fact.
So? At worst is saying hateful things about hateful people. Have a taste of your own medicine, eee.
Of course I agree with American, and there is nothing hateful with being anti-Zionist. Unless of course, you conflate Jewishness with Zionism.
And here you go as to the quotes:
link to mondoweiss.net
I have about 10 others, starting from page 1 of your comments to page 4 or 5.
Most of the time, it’s in between the lines of your sophistry. Then there are more explicit cases like this:
And then you go on to cite Al-Jazeera.
link to mondoweiss.net
I asked Ms. Keaton to search your comment history for herself. I doubt she cares enough because your initial comment in this discussion was sufficient proof.
eeeeeeee
This was a hateful statement you made:
“the majority of Palestinians either attempted to do this or cheered on the people doing it.” in regard to bombings. On the Independent thread, 8/27. 2.30am. That is sweeping and hateful.
I also note that you are very good at spouting little more than the zionist propaganda that you’ve been drip-fed since infancy, obviously never having questioned whether there’s even a grain of truth in any of it. Well, plenty of Israelis have debunked and disproved most of the zio ‘narratives’ as almost completely false. They’ve filled you up with mythology, not truth, about everything to do with your little state.
In short Cliff, all your quotes are bogus. Nothing racist about them. I make no generalizations whatsoever.
Bumblebye,
Nothing hateful about this. Just plain facts. Poll after poll showed that a majority of Palestinians supported suicide bombings. I didn’t say all mind you because that is not true and a generalization. But what I did say is neither hateful nor racist.
Yes I mean zionist….your group.
So you mean 90% or so of American Jews and tens of millions of Christian Zionists?
When it comes to the Democratic Jewish community, it looks like the figure could be over 50% – in some Zionist attitudes well over 50%.
– Fall **2010** Survey of American Jewish Opinion
link to ajc.org
[Q6] In the AJC 2010 Fall poll the Jewish political community **62%** “approved” of the Netanyahu government’s handling of Israel-U.S. relations.”
[Q9] AJC findings: For the November 2010 congressional elections **95%** thought Israel was IMPORTANT. (61%) Very Important, and (34%) Important.
[Q11] In the current situation, **45%** oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state? 48% favor a Palestinian (the question is where?).
[Q12] In the framework of a permanent peace with the Palestinians **60%** said Israel SHOULD NOT be willing to compromise on the status of Jerusalem as a united city under Israeli jurisdiction.
[Q 13] As part of a permanent settlement with the Palestinians **37%** said Israel should be willing to dismantle NONE of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, with 56% said SOME (again the question is where? e.g. wondering if Israel will be willing to give up land that’s over an Aquifer?).
– House Dems Tapped For Jewish Outreach
link to thejewishweek.com
I really recommend people take the time to watch Rep. Steve Israel – the DCCC Head talking about how important Jewish (his words) interests are the party, and how he will cater to them.
Ha! “Tens of millions?” You over-estimate your numbers, eee, and the level of actual religious conviction in the US, Europe and the English-speaking world.
The fact remains you think a vast majority of Jews are racist. Very nice.
Kos claims he runs a pro-Democratic site but see what happening in NY-9. It looks likely that the Democrats will lose NY-9. From Democratic-leaning PPP: link to publicpolicypolling.com
Here’s some of the why’s. The fact that we are on a verge of an upset is on DK’s front page but you don’t see this anywhere:
69% of the voters regard Israel as very or somewhat important. Approval on Obama vis-a-vis Israel is: 30/54. If you break out the Jewish vote (which is a plurality in the district) 88% consider it important and Obama’s approval on Israel is 22/68. Jews favor Turner over Weperin 56/39. The district polls as 59% Democrat and 25% Republican. The lack of loyalty to the Democratic party is shown by 29% of Democratic crossover to 10% crossover for the Republicans.
So, purging people of color from DailyKos for the Jewish vote is a real winner. Not. But just you wait. The loss will be spun as a referendum on Obama rather than for Jewish voters Israel trumps everything including American jobs. And that’s just a perceived difference because from an objective standpoint Obama is just as loyal to Israeli interests as any modern President.
Then again, who reads DailyKos?
I agree Egard,
What is the fascination with DK anyway? I find it incredibly boring and dry.
By their own admission, their single aim is to get Obama re elected, but they are alienating independents, so they are a liability anyway.
lots of mainstream people eguard. plus lots of congressional types follow it to get a pulse for a public voice. that’s why discourse around palestine and israel is so heavily guarded. it’s exactly the reason it’s important to hear palestinians and arab voices there and within the mainstream discourse so it isn’t regarded as some alien voice.
generally i have to say i found it a real drag posting there, a chore and an effort but it’s an important place as far as discourse.
and when diaries about the conflict reach the rec list (rare) you really can notice all the hasbara about americans be supportive of what israel is doing doesn’t really hold water because, at least at that site, i think most people are pretty appalled. but the average poster on the site doesn’t engage that much in on i/p on a daily basis which is understandable because the threads are often cesspools.
Al right, annie, it is important — that way. But please do not ask me to read it.
It reads like the internal Dem pravda. Wait, I get it. It is.
Annie, the crux:
plus lots of congressional types follow it to get a pulse for a public voice. that’s why discourse around palestine and israel is so heavily guarded.
“so heavily guarded” and controlled.
We need to send MW posts/links to our congressmen, and to whitehouse.gov
RE: “‘DailyKos’ bans Simone Daud, who sought to inject Palestinian view into US political discourse…” ~ annie
SAME AS IT EVER WAS, SAME AS IT EVER WAS: The Trial of Israel’s Campus Critics, by David Theo Goldberg and Saree Makdisi, Tikkun Magazine, September/October 2009
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to tikkun.org
P.S. LISTEN TO “MAD AS HELL IN AMERICA” WITH ADAM KLUGMAN ON AM 620 KPOJ (PORTLAND, OR), SATURDAYS FROM 3:00-6:00 PM [6:00-9:00 PM ES(D)T]
MAD AS HELL IN AMERICA (archived podcasts) – link to madashellinamerica.com
I don’t think there’s a deliberate policy of trying to eliminate Palestinian and pro-Palestinian voices. My experience has been that what people get in trouble for is not following the rules that the site admins or moderators (i.e. Meteor Blades) lay down. The rules are simplistic and ad hoc, because it’s simply hard to make those kinds of rules even in the best circumstances, and in this case the rules come from an only sort-of-informed moderator responding to demands by a motley handful of site users. But, the admins take them very seriously. By and large, you can avoid getting in too much trouble if you make a show of respecting them. If you argue carefully and stay on point, you can generally avoid getting (successfully) accused of anti-Semitism. simone daud failed to do this–he made comparisons between Israel and the Nazis, which probably even the admins would tell you isn’t necessarily inherently wrong all the time, but it’s a rule they introduced in order to cut down on flame wars, and they want it to be respected.
This is part of a much bigger problem the site has, which is that since Obama’s inauguration, the whole site has become very bitterly divided between people who criticize Obama and people who want to defend him and blame his critics for empowering the Republicans. (Marcos and most of the site’s front page writers are much closer to the “criticize Obama” camp than to the “defend Obama” camp.) So they are trying to deal with this larger issue of lack of comity on the site, which has been getting worse and worse despite everything they have tried to do, Palestine is a side issue for them which has a (IMO undeserved) reputation for being exceptionally contentious.
The other issue is that by and large pro-Palestinian users tend to focus on introducing new info and making arguments, instead of focusing their energies on attacking other site users, whereas pro-I users say very little about the issues, but spend a lot of time chasing after anti-Semitism. The problem with this is that what the moderators then see is a lot more and better-supported complaints about anti-Semitic users and comments than about islamophobic or anti-Arab users. This would probably change if pro-Palestinian users of the site were to invest a lot more time into identifying the patterns of abuse and abusive users, on par with what pro-Israel users already do. I think part of the reason they haven’t comes from a desire to take the high road and keep discussion going, and see anti-Semitism as a distraction. But there are (IMO) easy-to-spot patterns of abuse by individual users and groups of users, and it wouldn’t hurt to call these out more, and to be more disciplined WRT the rules of discussion. Another reason this is hard to do is because it means pro-Palestinian users have two things to do instead of just one–identify abuses from the other side AND carry on a facts-based discussion–the latter is something pro-Israel users don’t have to do, because they achieve their goals simply by shutting down discussion. But I think it would go a long way towards making the site a safer place to discuss Israel-Palestine politics as well as making things easier for the site’s often-overwhelmed management by making it harder for people to conduct flame-wars.
thanks worker bee. i think you have hit the nail on the head in many ways. i know MB put an extraordinary amount of effort into his job there. TS is very organized in the accusation department and i think you made a really good point about the pro p taking the high road. the problem as i see it is TS tries to continually narrow the window of what is not only acceptable speech but also acceptable thought. very very creative. and the site has gone along with that.
and they gang up heavily and have not been banned. over and over again they break rules and say horrible things and stick around.
also, i don’t think it is any coincidence on the eve of the UN vote there’s been this silence just like i don’t think the sweeps that banned a team of pro p’s right before the last election were a coincidence either.
i appreciate your comment and many of the points you make.
I insisted that Arab writers on dailykos put their energy into information and reasond arguments rather than waist their time collecting smear portfolios on the pro-colonialism advocates. In fact, Meteor-Blades asked us to write an anti-Islamophobia letter. I refused and insisted that other Arab writers refuse. We were not prepared to engage in that way.
The reason was simple. We don’t have the numbers like they do. They have a number of writers who do nothing other than chase Arabs and monitor Arabs on that site.
The other reason is that dailykos is no longer not that important a forum. The internet is large for pro-Palestinian advocacy. Finally, we were bussy covering the Arab revolutions and really had no time to defend ourselves against smears. In my coverage I was on the phone for ours with relatives and activists in Egypt and Palestine and so were other Arabs. The smears by the people who wanted to shut us down were irrelevant to us as we witnessed our world transform.
Simoned,
Check out these videos when you have time. [If you don't have time, put someone on it for you.] This involves all the open source developers worldwide.
The first video to watch is Freedom in the Cloud (Feb 2010) and it’s 45 minutes. Just put it on while you’re doing something else, but Moglen’s talk in Europe during the Egyptian uprising (Feb 2011) speaks directly to activism in Egypt and Palestine and he is creating the software that will let it happen safely without government interference on devices that will ultimately cost $25.
link to freedomboxfndn.mirocommunity.org
The foundation
link to freedomboxfoundation.org
Then there is this, which was created by 18-20 year olds inspired by Moglen’s Feb 2010 talk. (Google+ incorporated their idea of aspects in the last year.)
link to joindiaspora.com
Why am I suggesting this to you and Egyptian/Palestinian activists? Because when this goes beta within the next 10 months, it is going to prevent governments from shutting change down.This is an international movement to give the hardware and software activists need to effect change no matter what the national access to bandwidth. You need to be aware of it.
Thanks I will.
I know people who need it in Israel. I’ll get the young one in haifa to take a look.
Anyone could’ve seen that DK would break up over progressive issues after a dem was elected president.
Bush made such an easy target for anyone to the left of Gerald Ford, that having comity while Bush was president was child’s play.
If Kos was smart he would’ve sold his site after Nov. 2008 when it had reached its peak value.
I find your description accurate. I hope it reaches Markos and other DKos moderators. And yes, certain people should refrain from certain comparisons and follow certain rules if they want to be heard.
Well Newclench
Let’s address the Nazi comparisons.
1) There is ongoing and outright justification of the colonialism in Palestine based using the memory of the European genocide of Europes’s Jewish population. This is often used and even Obama used the rhetoric in his Cairo speech to the Muslim and Arab world. So when it benefits the colonial enterprise memories of the European genocide is permitted rhetoric. So for instance, the memory of Warsaw Ghetto uprising often becomes a tool for facilitating colonialism in Palestine. You hear it all the time in Israeli political advocacy, by Israeli members of the Knesset. And one hears it all the time in American political forums. I was willing to turn a blind eye to this kind of use of the European genocide and Jewish history in Europe.
2. There was also ongoing smearing of Arab Palestinians with the memories of the destruction of the Jewish community of Europe. As though European anti-semitism was the Arab Palestinian indentured farmer’s fault. Or as though somehow the pre-state Zionists had cleaner hands than say the Arab communists in Palestine. This type of smearing cannot be tolerated. The only response to it is the response that we readily have in Israel when such nonsense is brought up. And that is, it was Jabotinsky’s papers that were all excited about the emergence of Hitler in 1932. Our papers, the communist Arab papers had a call to arms waiting to fight the Fascists. It is the Arabs of Nazareth that have commemorated the liberation of Stalingrad for many decades and the fall of European fascism. Well before any other group in Israel. The defeat of fascism in Europe is equally our history.
3. When there was explicit use of Jewish history in Europe to justify the blockade of gaza, the only reasonable response is a clear NO! The European genocide is for us to use when protecting Gazan’s from starvation and not for you to use when to justify this starvation.
The European genocide is for us to use when protecting Gazan’s from starvation and not for you to use when to justify this starvation.
obviously
I think of memories as on a pallette. Certainly, dissenters draw from their pallette of experience to find original meaning, or to rationalize after the fact, an approach that wouldn’t stand the light of day.
In the environment of removal of existential threats to “enough” peoplehood, there is no need to apply myths excessively (beyond the purpose of formation of identity and definitions of ethical boundaries).
Your description that to your mind, “Jews are not a people” (as well as “Palestinians are not a people”), can be understood consistently, but denies something fundamental about a large large number of your neighbors, or commonly human.
As such, I cannot consider it a progressive sentiment. I feel a part of the Jewish people and thank that there is a national home that allows that to firm and unfold. That I dislike how it is unfolding, informs me to participate in its discussion, its self-governance, and to work for reform (even if from far away US).
It doesn’t compel me to state that “Jews are not a people”, with the then permission to assault what gives Jews meaning and form, based on that certainty.
Many contradictory simultaneous realities are all true.
The best that can be sought is to be good neighbors, whether defined in individual relations, class-defined affinities, cultural micro-affinities (Sephardi that love Middle Eastern originated music, but don’t really hear western classical), and/or Zionist/Palestinian, and/or Jewish/Islamic/atheist.
There is a difference between having a moral right to say something and moving towards a goal you seek. In my experience, and maybe it has been different for you, it makes sense to avoid slaughtering someone’s sacred cows head on when you seek to move them emotionally to your own perspective.
FYI, and this is ancient history, I’ve spent a lot of time at the ‘friendship house’ in Nazareth.
Simoned, 3 points:
1) It’s definitely understandable that you wouldn’t want to play the game that dkos Israel-firsters started, and write a long response about what islamophobia on dkos looks like, when there are more important things to talk about. But I wouldn’t discount the possibility that the mods genuinely wanted to hear the other side of the story, and that telling them something wouldn’t require matching the time and energy that Israel-firsters have put into “discovering” anti-Semites. Of course they might just be looking for an excuse to shut down discussion, but why presume that?
2) Talking about islamophobia might seem like a distraction that doesn’t move us towards a deeper understanding of the dynamic within Palestine and Israel, but dkos is about US politics, and in the US, islamophobia is the story. I think most people on dkos are already persuaded about who is oppressing whom in Palestine (polls on the site consistently show this), and what’s needed now is to show the vast ramifications this has for US politics. Which mainly means talking about the Israel lobby, islamophobia, conservative politics, foreign policy, and how all these relate, which is something people have tended to avoid, partly out of taking the high road, partly out of trying not to offend Jewish sensibilities. This is a difficult discussion to have, but at a certain point one just gets tired of politely pretending that American Jewish organizations and donors engage in scaremongering about Islam and try to shut down the debate about Palestine because they are all just puppets of the Military Industrial Complex. Not that cultivating a deeper understanding of Palestine and Israel themselves shouldn’t be a priority, but I wouldn’t write off American political discourse as a distraction, because it has a big impact on what happens in the Middle East (in other words, I agree with Phil Weiss’s argument that the continuation and expansion of the Israeli occupation is essentially an achievement of the American Jewish community).
3) None of those things you mentioned makes the dreaded Israel-Nazi comparison. They could be willfully misinterpreted, of course (and a lot of things could be).
i completely agree worker bee. excellent comment. in fact, i would very much appreciate a series surrounding this topic with different voices. i think it is essential and it is also an idea i have been thinking about, so i think i will be linking to this comment of yours in some of my future correspondence.
annie, I’m glad you found the comment helpful.
yes, very. it’s part of a broader conversation i am very much interested in having here and i’ve already passed it along. thank you.
Q: …he is able to provide broad, vital insight…
R: How does the only democracy in the ME work.
- Rachel Corrie’s play about her life and death? Banned.
- Palestinian children’s drawings? Banned
- Palestinian statehood? Banned
- Critical of Israel’s conduct and aggression? Banned
The list is endless and, in all honesty, something I cannot defend morally, philosophically and as a plain and simple fellow human being.
Used to comment there alot around 2006 -2008. Eventually just felt very stale and after the election lost interest. Checked it out a few times since but the new design seems pretty clunky and haven’t bothered to get the hang of it.
Remember Simone Daud from the Israel-Palestine threads. Also remember that most people were Pro-Palestine or leaning that way, just a few Pro-Israelers that regularly turned up in every single I-P diary. Seems to me that Kos is killing off the most active Pro Palestine contributors while leaving the colonialists. Not going to help since most of the readers dislike Palestine.
Just going to make people leave Daily K and go elsewhere. Plenty of alternatives.
Thanks Annie for this.
Dailykos was the only place in which I wrote in English. It seems that the administration of that site have confused 2011 for 2006 (the last time they banned their Arab writers).
I do think that it will be easy to find a new home for an Israeli Arab professor advocating from a leftist perspective and whose main hobby is translating articles written by Arab leftists into English.
no need to thank me simone, i think the world of you. i hope to be reading more of you here on occasion.
Simone,
Write in English here. It will be fun to watch the lather at DK over your comments here. ;-)
(I won’t be looking for the lather, but it will get reported here.)
I look forward to the lather because the DK lather was what pointed me here. I also noticed that Eiron got banned. Simone, you were one of the few people I followed over there.
For people who no longer want to go to the cesspool here’s a recent “hidden” thread:
really? (1+ / 7-)
Recommended by:
supercereal
Hidden by:
volleyboy1, Mets102, BFSkinner, livosh1, hikerbiker, Paul in Berkeley, JayinPortland
AIPAC has 100,000 members. AFL-CIO has 12.2 million members. If Richard Trumpka and Lee Rosenberg both called Harry Reid at the same time, whose call do you think he would take?
AIPAC has power because anyone who doesn’t do what they want is denounced as antisemitic and an enemy of Israel. Kind of like on this blog.
Politics is the art of changing what’s possible.
by happymisanthropy on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:40:54 PM MDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Indeed, (0+ / 8-)
Recommended by:
Hidden by:
Mets102, JayinPortland, Paul in Berkeley, BFSkinner, livosh1, Rustbelt Dem, JNEREBEL, hikerbiker
Kind of like on this blog.
Number of things are becoming very clear. These have really surprised me.
In addition Arab and Muslim kossers face extensive bullying from people who organize this bullying on an openly anti-Muslim defamation site whose participants, had its target been anything but Muslim Americans, would have long been banned.
by simone daud on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 04:37:23 PM MDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Here’s a response that wasn’t HRed for comparison:
And what site is this (9+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Mets102, Luthien Tinuviel, JayinPortland, Corwin Weber, Paul in Berkeley, RedPencil, Rustbelt Dem, volleyboy1, fizziks
whereof you speak?
And does that have anything to do with that unfortunate little Jew Problem you seem to have?
And who the fuck are you to speak for Muslim Americans when you’re neither, just some racist foreign troll who gets to spew his shit here unmolested because you offer such a ‘unique perspective’ or whatever other fucked-up excuse admin has to keep you hanging around?
Fuck me, it’s a leprechaun.
by MBNYC on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:24:06 PM MDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
richb,
I tended not to read any of these accusations and smears. First there was no time. Second I was disappointed that no one was watching our backs. I don’t know why Meteor Blades didn’t stop the bullying. He dropped the ball and in my opinion was negligent in allowing the ongoing bullying of Arabs on dailykos.
The environment for Arabs and Muslims was hostile there, something I never experienced in Israel or anywhere else, that in the end the way I emotionally operated was to ignore all the slights, all the accusations against me, and even not read them.
I have a friend in Israel (for the sectarian among you, he is registered as Jew in Israel’s population registry) who joins realEuropean facist sites to advocate against racism and promote a humanist perspective. In the end the environment at dailykos fits well with how he describes European facists receive Israeli leftists. I really blame the administration for allowing it to go so far and for not watching the backs of Arab writers.
dailykos however is not what it was once. Markos is no longer young and revolutionary, he has little talent that is obvious (bit dumb), and he has reconciled himself to the fact that his only claim to fame is the fact that he happened to setup the site in 2004.
Meteor Blades! well it seems to me it may now become apparent to him how even liberals in colonial societies are co-opted into pro-colonial discourse and how racism maintains itself within colonial Bourgeois culture the classes. I’m sure he now appreciates better how polite society in the US were able to turn their faces away from the suffering of Native Americans.
Please note that others like myself notice. How you and others like you were treated and your dignity shines through. I noticed the same thing when I visited Israel last Spring. Wherever you land please let us know. Take care.
Eiron got banned too? he was a good commentator, with some good knowledge on things Israeli and an unflappable attitude; used to look for his name on the list when I still had patience to even bother.
Maybe we should start listing who isn’t banned yet, then the games can begin in earnest.
eiron got banned with me in an earlier sweep before the last elections, then they let him back in. these sweeps are like that too in that they claim for some it is temporary. but they don’t tell who.. i think they want less argument/information/rhetoric going into a potentially volatile time.
i think there may be a massacre planned as attested to in the jdl call for mercenaries. they banned simone and eiron and they ‘punished’ members of team shalom by taking there rating privileges. wtf? silencing some members and just preventing other from rating. big dif. huge dif actually.
plus, it is the humiliation factor. it disgusts me.
Thanks for the history annie. Why am I reminded of the Stalinist purges? I actually worry that the powers-that-be that watch us all (ask MRW, he watches the watchers) are hard at work coming up with a cyber version of the Gulag.
Interestingly, these purges tend to take place in the ranks of the left. The right – they are much simpler. one is either in or out. The details matter a lot less to them. But for the left, going back to the great troskite-vs-leninist epic battles throughout the west, it’s all about the purity. I have to figure out why that is – one of these days….but it’s a puzzle – and a tragedy – for sure.
Note that this is a personal ban done by kos himself. I find it curious that MB leaves for unspecified reasons and then immediately on its heels we have this purge done by kos.
The real story is not the banning of some Arab academic.
The real story is the purge of the small black representation on dailykos.
If I was Max Blumenthal I wouldn’t be asking Markos why he banned a Palestinian Israeli academic, but I will be investigating the destruction of the black dailykos community in this recent purge.
I mean these are writers who have had to put up with racism that was far worse than what we put up with. Even recently an employee of dailykos shocked me by telling an upset black writer to “take it easy Francis” and why was that black writer upset, because of a tirade of racism.
Palestinian advocacy can take care of itself because essentially we are faced with an opposition that does not have centuries of bigoted history. I feel so sorry for black dailykos writers.
richb, thanks for dragging in a tad from the hiddens to give people an idea of what’s punished vs acceptable on that site. the raw racism and guttural viciousness of mbnyc is a perfect example, ‘spewing shit unmolested’! anyone without TU cannot read his responses in the hiddens either and this is where he really let’s go and collects mojo for it. (plus he occasionally brags about how hot he is, some sexual thing he’s got going for himself)
any talk of the lobby is throwing red meat at a pack of wolves, ravenously devoured, note the pile on pack mentality. i bet it doesn’t end there either as many of those same posters chew over the carcass of lobby comments there’s probably a stream of invective following. whereas a poster recommending a lobby comment (supercereal) could easily be held responsible for their support later on as “proof” is meticulously catalogued by the team.
i read about the purge of black writers simone although i thought it was just a pull of ratings.
no it’s gone big time now. two that complained about the purge and stood up to kos just got banned, trashablanca from black kos just got banned.
also, a very interesting guy Marcion a leftist Jewish identity on the site was also banned just now
wow, seems over the top.
That’s absolutely insane, I don’t remember trashablanca, but Marcion? They were pretty reasonable iirc. The big problem with that site is the viciousness. People just don’t get that they need to be polite and charitable to each other. Of course Israel-firsters there achieve their goal by shutting down discussion. So they have strong incentives to froth at the mouth. I think what needs to be done is to call them out on it, but without any anger, just point out what they are doing. People following the thread will see that you’re right. But never, ever get involved in long tit-for-tat back-and-forth arguments. Unfortunately, I still see people from both sides getting involved in those all the time.
I suppose that the name ‘Marcion’ would touch a raw nerve among Jewish people interested in the history of religion, since Marcion was the great heretic within second-century Christianity who is supposed to have been a misanthrope and an early anti-Semite. He thought, they say, that the Hebrew Bible was the work of a secondary and not too nice kind of god.
Maybe we should start listing who isn’t banned yet, then the games can begin in earnest.
Fercrissake, why bother. Just invite them here. We have milk and cookies.
Aloha, Simoned and Annie…! Simoned, why don’t you take a look at the Lake…?
We’re a very welcoming crowd that do favor the Palestinians…!
Btw, Annie… I just posted a new one A Hot Nite in Cairo… ;-)
CTuttle
I have no idea what the lake is.
My priority at the moment is to find a home for arab sources. There is so much being written by the Arab left. I just need to dive in and start translating.
That’s firedoglake.com, simone, and Jane Hamscher (owner) is only one step above Markos. Don’t waste your time.
That would be Jane Hamsher, MRW…! And, you’re just as mistaken with your errant assessment…! 8-(
But, Yes… FireDogLake, Simoned…! Where it’s waters run deep and wide…! *g*
My priority at the moment is to find a home for arab sources.
Fer god’s sake — cut a deal with Phil and Adam. I’d read you everyday. Anyone else? -N49.
Simone,
Thanks so much for engaging here in the comment section. We’d love to have your work here on Mondoweiss.
Absolutely agree with you CTuttle.
Firedoglake has consistently run very well received critical diaries on I-P, and without the hasbara flak found on DK.
I have yet to see a pro Israel diary at that blog.
If Simoned’s purpose is to reach the non-democratic party progressives, he could do far worse than post at firedoglake.com
simoned: if you want a place to write, you could also try Jadaliyya.
CTuttle,
You’re right. I am guilty of a spelling mistake.
Hamsher has NO patience with I/P. Show me where she has. Unless they’re the ones that comport with a certain view.
I would be happy to be disabused of my bad self.
simoned: if you want a place to write, you could also try Jadaliyya.
No, stay here. We want you.
This is why party politics stinks. Robert Michels described Kos’ leadership, as he did for all such organizations. It makes involvement difficult when participants have to submit to this kind of undemocratic authority.
The NYT posted comments on a Palestinian statehood article last week. The top ten most “Recommended” comments by readers were uniformly pro-Palestinian. Not one of their top ten “Highlight” comments chosen by their editors was pro-Palestinian.
Markos is a self promoting toy boy.
DKos is an arm of the Democratic Party. I’ve always voted Democratic. Thirty five years ago when I was a teenager I canvassed door-to-door in Nevada for an unknown congressional candidate named Harry Reid. I hope the party gets its act together, but my confidence is not high.
Well if it is an arm of the Democratic Party, then there is a desperate need to get someone smarter than Markos. He’s really not very bright nor is is aware politically about anything outside a very narrow community. For example, his recent book is outrageously anti-Muslim and by mear accident.
But I don’t think that dailykos is well described as an arm of the Democratic Party. It is a place where many leftists and liberals have agglomerated by accident, and it is Markos’ ambition that is driving it into being seen as a party institution. But he’ll be unsuccessful in the medium to longrun. My view is that he will lose the left because my experience is that intellectually the left is brutally competitive. There is no way that a person of Markos’ talent can remain at the helm of a leftist forum. Simply isn’t sufficiently articulate or on top of things.
Markos owns the site and it’s his ticket to being someone who has any sort of name recognition at all. If you think he’s going to let go of that then I’m afraid you have too rosy a view of how things work inside the Democratic Party.
I agree with simoned.
Kos won’t let go of his claim to lead some sort of agglomeration of the left.
The left will let go of him and in large part already has.
Kos’s only “intellectual” heft is spouting in more and more novel and empty forms the “lesser of two evils” meme.
He is even less of an intellect than establishment shills such as Ezra Klein.
Well if it is an arm of the Democratic Party, then there is a desperate need to get someone smarter than Markos. He’s really not very bright nor is is aware politically about anything outside a very narrow community.
Thank yew.
The Democrats should be renamed the Zionist Party of America.
I strongly disagree. I dont think that there is Zionism in the Democratic party, not in the sense that can be coherently understood. First, I really don’t think that many actually understand what Zionism is, its history and its various facets, ranging from the views of Abraham Berge to those of Begin and Shamir.
Second, I simply can’t see a role of Zionism in anyone’s life if he or she has not by now immigrated to Israel. As a personal philosophy it seeks to end the galut, end the state of exile.
The Democratic Party to me is best described as utterly dysfunctional on issues related to the colonialism in Palestine. It supports and promotes the colonial enterprise.
If you want to label it and anyone else my preference is for the use of the term colonial party, pro-colonial discourse, promotion and support of colonialism. What is happening in Palestine is colonialism. The support that this colonialism is getting in the US is the same phenomenon that Aimé Césaire describe in his famous essay on colonialism and the mechanism in the colonial communities for supporting this colonialism.
I hate the term Zionist for anything happening outside Israel (anything that is not an Israeli political party). We should not render unwarranted uniqueness to run of the mill colonialism in Palestine and the typical suport that colonialism receives from the west.
” strongly disagree. I dont think that there is Zionism in the Democratic party, not in the sense that can be coherently understood. First, I really don’t think that many actually understand what Zionism is,..”
You can’t be serious. You don’t think Hoyer, Schumer, Ackerman, former Lieberman aren’t zionist and don’t understand zionism.
“I hate the term Zionist for anything happening outside Israel (anything that is not an Israeli political party). We should not render unwarranted uniqueness to run of the mill colonialism in Palestine and the typical suport that colonialism receives from the west.”
Run of the mill colonialism? Oh please. That’s an insult to the intelligence of everyone at this site.
The US hasn’t put 1.6 trillion into Israel, squandered it’s reputation world wide and rejected the international laws it helped create because it gives a rats ass about colonizing or having anyone colonize a speck on the map like Palestine that is of no value to any “colonizer” except Israel.
The US gov did it because of US zionist domestic politics in the US.
Without the US zionist there wouldn’t be an Israel.
Why do you apply the term “colonialism” to Israel/Palestine/world relations?
I’ve felt that the term is both informative and utterly misleading, partially for its overuse and application to everything that is “wrong”.
One feature of the anti-colonial analysis is that it does deny the “people-hood” of the Jewish people, that firmed socially over millenia of exile from any home, but cultural (including religious) themes continued in diaspora. The anti-colonial analysis, that describes the whole world as full, creates a setting in which there is no room for anything new.
No formerly homeless people could EVER form up as a new nation.
There are emerging nations from newly evolving cultural formations, and there are old homeless peoples that require a homeland.
I’ll shift to “we”, that “we” need enough homeland, not the expanded either by the definition of some promise, by the Joshua-loving neo-religious fanatics, or by the definition of risk-aversion protecting militarily exposed flanks.
Enough is more than none though.
Because it is a statement of the obvious. As Bebbi said, there is no Zionism without colonialism.
Everything is wrong with colonialism. It is violent and racist.
Noy only is the myth fo ëxile” a fantasy, but if it were true (ie. a return from exile) then it would not be colonialism.
colonise
verb 1 establish a colony in (a place)
* establish control over (the indigenous people of a colony)
2 appropriate (a place or domain) for one’s own use
ta da!
It’s colonialism Richard!
And were it not for Zionist machinations, then many of the WWII refugees would not have gone to Israel, and nor would many of the FSU emigres. They weren’t seeking ‘self-self determination as Jews’, or Jewish nationhood, they were seeking a place to call home, and were forced to Israel.
R. Witty: “Why do you apply the term “colonialism” to Israel/Palestine/world relations?”
Because that is the term that those who colonized Palestine used. In order to fund their activities, the Jewish Colonial Trust was set up.
“Why do you apply the term “colonialism” to Israel/Palestine/world relations?”
I didn’t witty, Simoned did. He said the occupation of Palestine should be regarded as typical western ‘colonialism’.
Which is a way of downplaying and disguising the real reason of the US in allowing Israel to confiscate Palestine and the US zionist influence.
I/P isn’t simple colonialism by the US by any stretch.
i don’t understand american, the principles are all there. it just seems more extreme because now we have international laws and it is not fashionable or acceptable anymore. but how is it so different from civilizations decimated in the past? in principle isn’t it very similar, more similar than not? yes it is being done in this nationalistic fervor with this mythological/historical/ archeological rational woven into it but the basic principles of the state and government backing are very much the same if you strip all of that away. of course we are not merely interested in the resources of palestine in itself, but isn’t israel’s positioning in the ME and all our meddling and containment circling it in service of our quest to control the region? the geopolitical access to channels traveling all thru the ME? our support for israel seems very much about colonialism to me.
Israel is not a strategic colonial asset to the US. Also, why are there are no US bases in Israel? All we get is crap intel from them which in turn leads American kids into wars they should never be a part of.
I agree with American.
“No formerly homeless people could EVER form up as a new nation.
There are emerging nations from newly evolving cultural formations, and there are old homeless peoples that require a homeland.”
As always happens, Richard completely ignores the Palestinians already living there, who had to be removed one way or another (if they couldn’t be bought out). He has to, in order to maintain his sense of spotless moral purity. So he drones on endlessly, hoping to win the argument through sheer mindless repetition of what he wishes were true.
annie, I am not saying it “isn’t colonization”. It is.
I am saying that ‘attempts’ to portray the occupation and confiscation of Palestine as simply being the West just loves to ‘colonize” is a cover for the real reason the US allows Israel to do it. It’s too Chomsky…pretending that the US (or whoever) just does things without some ( however evil in excution) practical reason for gain to themselves. There is no gain for us in Palestine. The only gain is for Israel and the only motive for the US to support it is that famous “domestic political considerations”..i.e….the US zionist political financial support and political presure.
Countries ‘colonize’ other countries and regions because “they get something out of it”, some benefit, some enrichment for their own wealth or economic needs…. otherwise there is no reason to expend the money and effort necessary to colonize.
The US gets nothing out of Israel colonizing Palestine, it cost us trillions in money and other intangibles. There is no benefit at all to the US , only cost.
Stupid and corrupt as the US government may be, if they were into colonizing they would be colonizing some country or region that offered us a return, a pay off, for the effort and the money spent, not colonizing just as a expensive ideological hobby.
Calling my refugee grandparents colonialists is a sick joke. Calling the millions of Jews that came to Israel from Arab countries colonialists is a sick joke. Buy you guys persist with this. Colonialism a la the British empire or other European nations is completely different from waves of refugees pushed from one country to another by war or threat of violence. Yasser Arafat was not a colonialist when he tried to overthrow King Hussein of Jordan in September 1970 or was he?
“…It’s too Chomsky…” and Stephen Zune.
“Buy” – a possible freudian slip there?
On other note you asked.
“but isn’t israel’s positioning in the ME and all our meddling and containment circling it in service of our quest to control the region? ”
I’d have to say not. I am in the W&M “Israel Lobby” camp on this and was before I even read it, because it is indisputable, well documented and proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that Israel has hampered and at times deliberately interfered with US efforts to stabilize and maintain relations with ME countries that are fundamental to our interest.
Israel has contributed nothing to US power in the region, it has done the opposite. It has raised so much resentment of the US that that is a large part of why we now have so many ME countries challenging and determined to upend the US “Power Balance” in the ME…because that US power balance has come to include them kowtowing to Israel and being strong armed economically and militarily by the US for Israel’s benefit.
Israel is in reality, a flea on the elephants ass in terms of being any use to the US in the ME. And in reality, a 800 lb gorilla, by virtue of their US zionist lobby ,sitting on any US efforts to have diplomatic and normal relations with any ME country so we can protect and forward our own interest.
As Sec. Gates recently said……the US has gotten nothing, absolutely nothing from Israel for our support of them. …I would add nothing but trouble on top of trouble for the US.
What Israel wants and must have to continue with their agenda is to keep themselves as Americas’ ONLY ALLY and paint every other ME country as America’s enemy..or at least cut off from any normal relations with the US. Hence their never ending, incessant shit stirring, aggression, deception, deliberately false intel and chaos creating with every country they can start something with in the ME so they can run to Uncle Sam and cry holocaust.
If Israel was of any kind of actual force for or any real military use to the US we wouldn’t have had to PAY them extra protection money for their little selves both times we took action against Iraq….if they were serving us or capable of doing anything for us we would have told them to go get the push over Saddam instead of having to it ourselves and let them earn their keep for the big military we provide them with US tax money.
Short form– Israel is totally useless to the US in every way…it’s nothing but a big fat liability to all our interest in the ME.
Oh please eee….it’s no joke, that’s what they are according the definition of colonization.
The Jews could have stayed in and/or returned to Germany, Poland, Hungry, etc. ,reclaimed their property and been a protected class due to the holocaust or lived in any country.
And been better off than they are as members of the zionist Israel cult.
Why do suppose half the world’s Jews don’t or obviously don’t want to live in Israel?
>> As always happens, Richard completely ignores the Palestinians already living there, who had to be removed one way or another … He has to, in order to maintain his sense of spotless moral purity.
His moral purity remains spotless in his mind only. While he may justify ethnic cleansing in terms that are less harshly-pragmatic than those used by eee, at the end of the day he, too, “primarily celebrates” it.
there’s definitely an aroma of cult about it isn’t there.
waves of refugees pushed from one country to another by war or threat of violence
get over yourself. the zionist project didn’t begin like that nor has it been about that for decades. yes there is a window of truth where that was the reality but this narrative hasn’t been applicable for god knows how long. we’ve got fanatics being imported from brooklyn for the purpose of securing jerulsalem for heaven’s sakes eee. get a grip. it’s not your grandmother’s story any more than it’s this..
your narrative has been shoved down everyone’s throat so long people think it’s mostly true. it isn’t. it is out modeled and outdated and the continued theft of palestinian land has NOTHING to do with your “waves of refugees pushed from one country to another by war or threat of violence” anymore. nothing. the zionist state is the one doing the pushing around of refugees. wake up and smell the roses.
and guess what? i can say that here without starting a flame war that lasts days and lands me in the dkos/team shalom dog house.
Annie,
You are looking at the fringes of the project. My grandparents and their generation are not colonialists. All the people born in Israel are not colonialists. That is a vast majority of the Jewish population. Equating Zionism with colonialism is just rubbish.
American,
You are completely deluded. Why would Jews want to stay in Europe after being butchered? Why would they trust their neighbors? Plus, much of where they lived fell behind the Iron Curtain.
“No formerly homeless people could EVER form up as a new nation”
Formerly homeless people witty don’t ‘form new nations’, they migrate, emigrate, get taken in by other nations or return to their own land if they can.
Where would homeless people form a new nation anyway, can you think of any land that doesn’t already belong to someone.
The Palestine refugees are homeless , why don’t we give them your state or Florida or New York so they “can form a new nation”.
Or just give them Palestine back.
eee
A refugee from country x who migrates to a colonial/colonizing country y simply is, on arrival and acceptance into that country, a colonialist. It’s a simple FACT. That absolutely does NOT detract in any way at all from the hellish nightmare they lived through and managed to survive.
In previous centuries, millions fled the feudal regimes and grave (non-Jewish) religious persecution from various European countries. Those who fled to North America, or any other colonizing area were refugees from them but colonialists in their new countries which were still expanding and riding roughshod over indigenous populations. Those who were ‘merely’ emigrating were also colonialist. Anybody emigrating to a still expansionist Israel now is still a colonialist. Since Israel very much wants to extend its sovereignty over the vast majority of the stolen lands, it is still a colonialist country which makes its citizenry, very significant numbers of whom do not want to relinquish what has been stolen, colonialist – even those born there.
Bumblebye,
Your facts are just plain wrong. A refugee who migrates to any country is upon arrival in that country still just a refugee even though that country may be a colonialist country. A person arriving in a country on the back of a colonialist army is a colonialist. What army did the Jews have? None. They came to Palestine as refugees mostly or as settlers sanctioned by the Ottomans or British, not as colonialists. Pre 1948 they purchased or rented every piece of land they inhabited. Calling them colonialists is just sick.
American,
Finally you came up with a great idea. There is so much land in the US. Why don’t you offer some to the Palestinians refugees?
sure eee. we could offer one to jews too, and then offer one to white aryans, and we could have a black state, and carve up the bible belt into different denominations. cram all the asians into arizona. heck we could all look like zionist wanna bees
What army did the Jews have? None.
but they had their terrorists
Annie,
Right, the Jewish “terrorists” forced the Sultan to allow Jews to buy land in Palestine. Same for the British.
“…Pre 1948 they purchased or rented every piece of land they inhabited…”
So, did your refugee grandparents have a lot of money? Or, did they have the land conveniently bought for them through one of the colonial zionist enterprises at the time e.g. Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, Palestine Land Development Company, or the Jewish National Fund?
There’s no contradiction between being a refugee and being a colonist. Think of Dido.
Those of Marxist tendency (I think Simone is one of these; sorry if I’m misreading him) who denounce colonialism don’t necessarily denounce colonists, whom they may see as people who were victimised ‘at home’ by capitalism and then duped – given false hope in terrible circumstances – by the same capitalist forces, so that they would help with a plot against other victims.
The Marxist solution is, as ever, that the workers should – and eventually will – unite. If the Tent Protest had turned into a united front of Jewish and Palestinian victims of ‘Israeli’ (really ‘world’) capitalism this prediction would have been fulfilled. Zionism is then reinterpreted as a socialist movement among Jewish workers that was ‘hijacked’ by capitalist conspirators – some Jewish, many not – in the service of a plan by Anglo-America (really, by the capitalist ruling class of those countries) to make sure that their schemes were not ruined by a united workers’ movement in the ME. Hence Simone says that there is no (authentic) Zionism, only colonialism, in the United States Democratic Party. The premise is that it is in the objective interest of the Anglo-American capitalists to disrupt, terrorise and tyrannise the ME. Israel is just their catspaw.
I’m not trying to evaluate this theory, only to state it fairly. Which I have no doubt failed to do.
eee
“…Finally you came up with a great idea. There is so much land in the US. Why don’t you offer some to the Palestinians refugees?…”
I don’t think the American Zionists would allow it — Do you? And as for Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and Nita Lowey their heads would probably explode at the mere thought of it. The thought of compensating Palestinians for anything! Have you lost it eee?
eee
“What army did the Jews have?” Not none. Do you think we’re thick, eee? The zionists had been militarizing and preparing for donkeys years, using those among their number who had military experience in their previous countries to train and ready an army, they were buying and stealing tons of armaments! They were even drilling men in transit camps on Cypress, using flippin’ broomsticks and such like! My own dad was a witness to these things. I’ll hopefully hear a few more first hand accounts in October when I attend with him his first ever Palestine Veterans gathering.
I was hoping that Simone would comment on his use of the term colonial.
I find it to be used as the equivalent of “bad” by the solidarity here.
If a nation of refugees that settled are colonialists, then the word colonial no longer means bad.
There is no question in my mind that Palestinians deserve restitution for forced taking of land, but there is also no question in my mind that the migration of Jews to Israel represents a liberation of a people.
The condemnation of that migration, and use of it as a litmus test for current humanity, is an advocacy for the suppression of world Jewry.
I don’t see that a progressive can advocate for the reasoning that Jews should have just stayed in Eastern Europe to be harrassed following their attempted genocide.
It strikes as the epitome of fascist thought. That it is adopted by those that describe themselves as progressive, is a disaster for the world of human rights and goodness.
“Calling my refugee grandparents colonialists is a sick joke. Calling the millions of Jews that came to Israel from Arab countries colonialists is a sick joke. ”
It’s always funny seeing you get moralistic, eee, when you believe in might makes right when it suits you.
There’s no contradiction in sympathizing with refugees (any refugees) and denouncing an ideology which requires ethnic cleansing in order to achieve its goal. I think the Jewish refugees (and others) had the right to go wherever they wanted and if Palestine was the only place they could go (in part because of lobbying by Zionists), then they had every right to go there. But not to establish a Jewish state.
Time you read Jabotinsky’s “The Iron Wall” again, eee. His words are both honest and prophetic, and still very much apply today.
Everyone who settles in Israel arrives on the back of a current or previous colonialist entity, whether it be British, Jewish, or Israeli.
Refusing to call your collective colonialists is refusal to face moral reality.
Your arguments are just plain wrong.
Yeah! Might help. He’s probably never heard of it.
Or, he can watch this series on Israel’s History by Alan Hart:
– Israel – Alan Hart (Author : Zionism The real enemy of the Jews.)
link to youtube.com
Alan Hart often interviews Israel’s “New Historians” e.g Avi Shaim, Ilan Pappé who have brought new historial information to light, especially after researching many of Israel’s early government documents released in the early 1980′s.
Calling my refugee grandparents colonialists is a sick joke. Calling the millions of Jews that came to Israel from Arab countries colonialists is a sick joke. Buy you guys persist with this.
We persist in this because it is irrelevant whether or not Jewish colonists are transferred voluntarily – they are still colonists. Plenty of colonial communities have been established by groups fleeing persecution. Some have even been established as a form of exile imposed by the penal systems of the Metropole. The fact remains that a flood of refugees displaced the lawful Arab inhabitants – often moving right into their homes – and drastically reduced the available resources and land through a process known as colonization. See “6. The Problem of Colonists” in Raphael Lemkin, “Axis rule in occupied Europe”, 1944, Carnegie Endowment, page 45
Richard, your latest thoughts indicate a struggle with what it is to be a “progressive” advocate as opposed to what you term “fascist thought”.
It would help if you don’t continually make two plus two equal five.
>> “I don’t see that a progressive can advocate for the reasoning that Jews should have just stayed in Eastern Europe to be harrassed following their attempted genocide.” <<
No one is advocating that, it is just your false conclusion. Read what Donald wrote.
Jews in danger entered camps in Western Europe and from there many migrated to Palestine, and tens of thousands also to other countries, especially the US.
Equating Zionism with colonialism is just rubbish.
eee try reading what the Sasson report had to say about the efforts of the World Zionist Organization Settlement Division and bear in mind the Zionist movement was originally chartered as a colonial trust, colonial bank, and a subsidiary colonial national fund. You Israelis are still bringing new colonists to the territory on a daily basis. No one here is going to be deceived about that for even one minute by your lame attempts at hasbara.
Jews are a people, and desire to self-govern (currently, probably indefinitely).
Following the holocaust, migration was a need, communal defense was a need, self-governance rather than subordination was a need, and in the presence of terror a means of organized defense with the authority of international law (a state) was a need.
It is what it is. To attempt to replay or rewrite history is unnecessary, and revolutionary in an imposing sense.
I saw Bernard Avishai speak today, and briefly conversed with him. The setting of his presentation included a counter-point from a likud-like attorney.
Bernard emphasized that peace was possible, including forming agreement on application of the right of return. His counterpart only invoked doubt and fear, and impugned Bernard’s character.
I expect that if he presented here, he would be called racist for his advocacy for Fayyad and Abbas, his trust in Olmert’s intentions, his belief in a negotiated settlement.
He advocates for the humanity and dignity of Palestinians from personal experience with academics, business people, government leaders, neighbors. He even spoke accommodatingly of Hamas officials that he met. (He didn’t meet the individual that claimed that “Hamas will NEVER recognize Israel”)
He also advocates ultimately for a federated EU type nation.
I liked his comments a great deal. He struck me as a person of indefatigable commitment (everyone get fatigued).
He did NOT adopt the either/or or condemnatory approach. He lost his cool a couple times. He got distracted in countering historical assertions, to the detriment of his main points.
His main points would have been compelling, rather than describing the old conservative/liberal polarity.
Basically, the likud position emphasizes risk aversion, combined with a prejudice that based on history Arabs can never be trusted. His position is that the bases of trust for all fundamental concerns (including the right of return) can be constructed.
I agree, with some reservations, that with triangulating positions, even incrementally between a liberal Israel, PA, and Hamas, that disruption would occur. Specifically, that Hamas would defer acceptance of Israel in favor of a 10 year conditional calm (hudna), and then no guarantee.
No peace, no recognition.
I believe that it is necessary for Hamas and the PA to unify in fact, and not only in intention, and then negotiate as one so that agreements can be made confidently.
Witty, you’re full of it.
Denying that the Zionist project in Palestine is colonial in nature is complete and utter nonsense. It has, frankly, the exact character as how the US involved (right down to open, armed conflict with the British Empire) and “Eretz Israel” is a direct analog to the “Monroe Doctrine.”
If you believed it was necessary for Hamas and PA to unify, you would not endorse the crippling siege that seeks to isolate Gaza from the West Bank. But you do.
Nobody buys that you’re an agent of peace, Witty. You’re stated goals have repeatedly boiled down to the phrase, “Jews-only real estate.”
“Jews are a people, and desire to self-govern”
Australian Jews get their desire. They can vote and run for any elected office in Australia. Not only do they take part in governing themselves, they take part governing the rest of us as well.
“Following the holocaust, migration was a need, communal defense was a need, self-governance rather than subordination was a need, and in the presence of terror a means of organized defense with the authority of international law (a state) was a need.”
And the needs of Jews are far more important than anyone else’s needs.
A refugee who migrates to any country is upon arrival in that country still just a refugee
Every refugee who acquired a new Israeli nationality, and enjoyed the protection of the country of his new nationality ceased to be a refugee in accordance with Article 1C(3) of the 1951 Refugee Convention that Israel concluded with the other state parties. If you had read the section on colonists from Lemkin’s book, you’d know that being a refugee does not confer a right to participate in war crimes and crimes against humanity without incurring individual criminal responsibility. In fact, the Refugee Convention does not apply to
link to unhcr.org
What army did the Jews have?
After the fist cease fire, Israel had a fighting force of about 80,000; an air force; and extensive weapons manufacturing capabilities. On 18 February 1948, Moshe Sharett wrote “We will have only enough troops to defend ourselves, not to take over the country.” Ben Gurion replied:
Hostage,
The fact remains that a flood of refugees displaced the lawful Arab inhabitants – often moving right into their homes – and drastically reduced the available resources and land through a process known as colonization.
Thank you for this clearheadedness. I like exhaling every once in a while.
I was hoping that Simone would comment on his use of the term colonial. I find it to be used as the equivalent of “bad” by the solidarity here.
1. The UN issued a declaration that said colonialism violated the principles of the UN Charter and made it illegal. It said:
**that the subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights;
**that all armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease.
2. Eviction by armed attack or occupation and inhuman acts resulting from the policy of apartheid or ethnic cleansing were criminalized and are no longer subject to any statute of limitations;
3. The Rome Statute was amended to define military occupation for the purpose of colonizing a territory, or any other reason that violates the principles of the UN Charter, as crimes against humanity and the crime of aggression.
The methods employed to colonize other territories are now serious crimes – hence the scare quotes around “bad” aren’t necessary.
This is so funny…big bad Israelis who want the world and the ME to tremble when they squeak have to get the US to get their people out of Egypt.
And the Egyptian’s wouldn’t even come to the phone for the US until they jerked Panetta around enough for him to start sweating blood and making threats. ROTFLMAO…wouldn’t even come to the phone for the US for over 2 hours…you gotta love it. Opps, sorry the line is busy, opps, sorry we don’t where our Supreme Army commander is at the moment,no we don’t have cell phones in Egygt for our most important officials, that’s a vicious rumour, can you call back in another hour or so?, you want us to give him a message for you ? sure we’ll tell him you called, bye bye.
This just cracks me up.
Haarzet..
The United States told Egypt’s military rulers during an attack on the Israeli embassy in Cairo that they must act quickly in order to prevent Israeli personnel from being attacked by Egyptian protesters, Haaretz learned on Saturday.
According to senior U.S. source that were involved in the attempt to resolve the Cairo incident, U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta called Supreme Military Council head Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, conveying what the source called a forceful message concerning the need for speed in Egypt’s ending of the embassy attack.
“There’s no time to waste,” Panetta reportedly told Tantawi in the 1 A.M. call, warning of a tragic outcome that “would have very severe consequences.”
The U.S. source also said that Tantawi failed to answer incoming calls from U.S. officials throughout the evening, finally answering after more than two hours of attempts.
These reports came after earlier Saturday, a senior Israeli source indicated that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak attempted repeatedly to reach the head of Egypt’s Supreme Military Council, to no avail.
According to the Israeli source, the “Egyptians said every time that they were not able to track him down in order to connect the call.” After failing to locate Tantawi himself, Netanyahu called head of Egyptian intelligence, Gen. Murad Muwafi.
Barak, in turn, called U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, asking him to discuss the issue with Tantawi, which Panetta was able to do shortly after. ‘
this is what I sent Meteor Blades. Annie, I would appreciate it if you placed this message as an update at the bottom of the post.
Tim,
It is time for you to come out publicly about the assault on dailykos’ Black
community by Markos’ purge. It is not time for withdrawal. Make a stand for God’s sake. You have a legacy on the site. Your voice needs to be heard.
The Black community on that forum has been devastate. far more than the Palestinian community. They have been purged of many of their strong voices.
This is not about the Palestinians or me. We Palestinians can take
care of ourselves and have a huge network of activists and support all over the US. We are organized. We also represent communities in the US that are well off economically.
Come out publicly against the decimation of the Kos Black community, for the sake of all of us who have labored for civil justice.
Simone
Alternatively, tell them all to come here.