Another two-stater goes one-state

Israel/Palestine
on 24 Comments

There’s movement at every hand. First Carlo Strenger at Haaretz telling Peter Beinart that the two-state solution is a “mirage of the past.” Can you imagine an American publication running this?

This brings me to the final point of disagreement. You hope to save the two state solution. But I think you try to save spilt milk. You probably know the wisdom of every investment advisor. It is profoundly wrong to handle your investment portfolio reacting to previous losses. You need to look at it as if you were creating it now.

There is little use for us to decry the folly of Israel’s policy of the last forty years. We need to look at the situation as it is now: no Israeli politician will be able to retreat to the 1967 lines as long as Hamas will not radically change its views, and this, researchers familiar with the movement tell me, is not likely to happen soon.

…I have argued against the one state solution time and again; both in the version of the greater Land of Israel propagated by Israel’s right, and in the version advocated by many Palestinian intellectuals and activists and some Jewish intellectuals on the far left. I didn’t see how such a state could conceivably function, and I thought the two state solution, imperfect as it is, was preferable to all alternatives. But history has moved on, and the two state solution is nothing but a mirage of the past.

(The awfulness of this debate IMHO is that Palestinians face these realities every day, have for years, and yet we American Jews and Israeli Jews get to stand around the blackboard. Oh my. The structure of imbalance.)

24 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    March 29, 2012, 11:28 am

    He’s right that 2SS is a mirage of the past, but he’s right ONLY if the determining factor is internal Israeli politics in today’s circumstances. The on-going Israeli-preferred 1SS (apartheid like, profoundly undemocratic, oppressive to Palestinians, and based strongly on a 44 years violation of international law) is and has long been a “present reality” and will be as far as one can see — unless and until Israel’s circumstances change. BDS is the civil-society movement for such change. The UN is the place where the nations — once no longer cowed by the USA and AIPAC-like organizations — could do a nation-state-BDS action.

    What’s important to realize is that Israel’s external circumstances must change either [1] to remove the settlers and end the occupation and make way for 2SS or [2] to change the present-since-1990 apartheid 1SS into a democratic 1SS.

    Each path requires outside pressure. Neither can or will happen without the outside helping. Israel’s apartheid 1SS is not going to “morph” into a south African-style democracy without pressure. The 1SS-proponents do not seem to understand this (or understand it and refuse to pronounce the words).

    To see that this is true, consider the 60-years of Tibetan protest against China’s take-over of Tibet. I judge that protest against China will not help the Tibetans. Protest against Israel just might work, especially after the next one or two or three major Israeli stupidities (Iran war being the one to — sort of — hope for).

  2. Pamela Olson
    March 29, 2012, 11:34 am

    “no Israeli politician will be able to retreat to the 1967 lines as long as Hamas will not radically change its views”

    What does Hamas have to do with it? When they were running for office in 2005, they made lots of noise about accepting a two-state solution. It’s Israel that won’t change its views, and therefore destroyed (and continues to destroy) any hope of a two-state solution.

    • Annie Robbins
      March 29, 2012, 12:06 pm

      pamela, i was watching this interview of beinart this morning ( he argues his point so passionately) and the interviewer brings up this hamas point which beinart deflates with a comparison to likud platform.

      link to videos.shalomtv.com

      to bad he wasn’t doing his thing ten years ago when it could have made a difference. i too think the window has closed.

    • Hostage
      March 30, 2012, 1:44 am

      What does Hamas have to do with it?

      Nothing. Strenger isn’t advocating a 1ss or equal rights. He is suggesting that Hamas and the PA adopt non-violence and accept the status quo while working to improve their human rights.

  3. Bumblebye
    March 29, 2012, 12:04 pm

    Is Gaza part of Strenger’s ‘vision’ of one state? Is equality? Is restitution or compensation when formerly stateless people can cross the green line back to their homes with the deeds to their lands and homes? Would an ‘Israeli’ court hear their petitions for the return of their property? The whole thing needs a huge commission of willing Israelis and Palestinians, a mixture of exiles and not on both sides to start over on the state building exercise to create something fair and equitable to both. Does that equal “destruction” to our ziobots?

  4. DICKERSON3870
    March 29, 2012, 12:13 pm

    RE: “no Israeli politician will be able to retreat to the 1967 lines as long as Hamas will not radically change its views” ~ Strenger

    MY COMMENT: No Israeli politician will be able to retreat to the 1967 lines, no matter what! PERIOD! EXCLAMATION POINT(S)! ! !

  5. atime forpeace
    March 29, 2012, 12:45 pm

    Phil this is why i think you are the best, it’s the money quote for me and how i view the issue, it is why it repulses me so to watch it play out in zionist-time.

    “The awfulness of this debate IMHO is that Palestinians face these realities every day, have for years, and yet we American Jews and Israeli Jews get to stand around the blackboard. Oh my. The structure of imbalance.)”

    Stand around the blackboard indeed and pontificate all the while patting they-arrogant selves on the back over how humane and wonderful they-all-is.

    Alleluyah Phillip Weiss! go tell it on the mountain, o’er the hills and everywhere!

  6. eljay
    March 29, 2012, 12:50 pm

    >> … no Israeli politician will be able to retreat to the 1967 lines …

    Poor Jewish state, being expected to “retreat” from FAR outside its 1948 borders all the way back to within the 1967 armistice lines. Aggressor-victimhood is such a tough gig. :-(

    >> … as long as Hamas will not radically change its views …

    Damn you, Hamas!!

    And, yet, Hamas’ views have nothing to do with the Jewish state’s 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder. The Jewish state has the power to halt its campaign immediately and completely…but it chooses not to do so.

  7. Gaius Baltar
    March 29, 2012, 1:38 pm

    “…no Israeli politician will be able to retreat to the 1967 lines as long as Hamas will not radically change its views.”

    If Israel returns to the 1967 borders, Hamas will become irrelevant. It will lose its support of the Palestinian people (what it hasn’t already lost).

    • Blake
      March 29, 2012, 2:47 pm

      A big IF

      2 state solution will mean: “Palestine would be able to claim in its World Court Application against Israel that the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian People commenced with the Zionist war, conquest, ethnic cleansing, and occupation of 1948–”the beginning of the conflict,” to use the precise words of the World Court itself. Indeed, in the Bosnia case I already successfully argued to the World Court that ethnic cleansing is a form of genocide. ” – Francis Boyle.

      Not forgetting the right of return.

    • kalithea
      March 30, 2012, 2:35 pm

      ONLY IF ISREAL RETURNS ALL THE PRE-67 LAND PLUNDERED AND ALL THE REFUGEES ARE ALLOWED TO RETURN. UNDERSTAND THIS: IF ISRAEL GETS AWAY WITH INJUSTICE BY TRYING TO CHEAT THE PALESTINIANS…HAMAS WILL LIVE ANOTHER DAY AND MORE!

      The operatives in this paragraph are: ISRAEL CHEATS THE PALESTINIANS.

      But then, it’s the nature of Zionists.

  8. American
    March 29, 2012, 1:38 pm

    link to thomas.loc.gov:./temp/~bd9aE5:@@@P|/home/LegislativeData.php?n=BSS;c=112|
    H.RES.394
    Latest Title: Supporting Israel’s right to annex Judea and Samaria in the event that the Palestinian Authority continues to press for unilateral recognition of Palestinian statehood at the United Nations.

    Whatever the Israelis in the US congress are for I am against. I am against the One State solution for Palestines because it ‘is’ and always has been the final realizaiton of zionism’s “Greater Israel” and will it ‘be’ an apartheid state. Now, what do you think you can do to intervene “within” Israel when it becomes a One state apartheid state when you can’t even do anything about it ‘externally” with the weight of international law against it?

    • Fredblogs
      March 29, 2012, 4:46 pm

      The Israelis don’t want to annex the West Bank and they certainly don’t want a pit like Gaza. They don’t want the Palestinians to be citizens of Israel anymore than the Palestinians want to be ruled by Jews.

      • seafoid
        March 29, 2012, 5:53 pm

        They just want the land, Fred. Erez Israel. The shining covenant with g-d. Or something. They’ll do anything to get their hands on it. Even sell their souls to the devil. He got a good deal.

      • Dex
        March 29, 2012, 9:28 pm

        You seem to think all Israelis are Jews and all Jews are Israelis. Do you know the difference?

        p.s.: “a pit like Gaza” shows how racist you are.

        p.p.s. Question: Are you Israeli or American?

      • Fredblogs
        March 30, 2012, 2:25 pm

        Gaza is a pit. That’s not a statement about the people living there. American, why?

      • Dex
        April 1, 2012, 12:11 am

        Oh, you’re not talking about the people of Gaza, but you call the place a “pit” Puh-lease, we all know what you are saying…and it wreaks of racism!

        So if you are American, why such emphatic allegience to Israel? Are your parents from there? or is it that your grandparents are from there? Please what ties YOU specifically have to historical Palestine…

      • kalithea
        March 30, 2012, 2:33 pm

        “a pit like Gaza”

        To think that this site censored my reply to Mutter’s article (which I put a lot of effort into) and posted THIS GARBAGE.

        I’M SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING NEVER POSTING ON THIS SITE AGAIN.

  9. gazamom
    March 29, 2012, 2:37 pm

    I had the same reaction when I read the Hamas quote-they weren’t even around prior to 1987, and certainly not influential prior to the late 90s. For Israel, its always about absence of a “Palestinian partners”=”moderate” Palestinian leadership=reliable collaborators. But back to my main point, there was also this interesting piece by Bradley Burston, in which he too, essentially, is turning one-stater (and revealing declassified documents suggesting that Begin was as well): link to haaretz.com

  10. Blake
    March 29, 2012, 2:44 pm

    We need another 6 million souls to see the light.

  11. Hostage
    March 30, 2012, 1:30 am

    First Carlo Strenger at Haaretz telling Peter Beinart that the two-state solution is a “mirage of the past.” Can you imagine an American publication running this?

    Everyone at Haaretz is talking about annexing the West Bank. They have no Earthly idea how to implement a 1ss that includes the population of Gaza too. The declassified documents from the 1960s and 70s reveal that Israel wanted the territory of Gaza if they could figure out how to do that without taking in the inhabitants too. Wake me up when an Israeli talks about a 1ss that includes Gaza.

  12. kalithea
    March 30, 2012, 2:26 pm

    Beinart’s a joke. I saw him yesterday on Stephen Colbert’s show and his fawning over Israel made me want to throw up. Why didn’t he ask Colbert to show the video of the child whose father is being arrested for “stealing” water on Palestinian land, if he’s really serious? Instead it was: I love Israel, I love it so much…blah-blah-blah!

    Beinart’s hypocrisy makes me want to scream.

    • Dex
      April 1, 2012, 12:15 am

      I saw that too and it was such a joke! Beinart is clearly a clown who knows NOTHING about the conflict. He is one of those idiots who thinks you can be a principled Zionist…well, we all know that is NOT possible because Zionism = racism.

  13. kalithea
    March 30, 2012, 2:28 pm

    Oh and get this: Beinart said Israel is the JEWISH STATE on Colbert’s show. What a FAKE!

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