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Mamdani’s ‘holistic’ challenge: Anti-Zionists must persuade Jews they can only be safe by dismantling the Jewish state

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Last Tuesday night, the Ugandan scholar Mahmood Mamdani gave a speech at Columbia University, where he is a professor, saying that Palestine has not yet reached its “South African moment.” Most of his speech is excerpted below. It followed Omar Barghouti’s speech, which I lately covered.

“The end of apartheid was a negotiated settlement,” Mamdani said. The South African anti-apartheid struggle did not succeed by military resistance so much as by education, bringing whites to understand that they would only be safe if they ceased to be settlers. They came to agree. In Israel and Palestine, the work is also educational. Israeli Jews and their western supporters have been indoctrinated in the wake of the Holocaust to believe that Jews will only be safe with a Jewish state.

The majority Jewish population within the state of Israel is not yet convinced that it has an option other than Zionism. This is the real challenge. The Zionist message to the Jewish population of Israel is this, Zionism is your only guarantee against another holocaust.

The opposite is the case. Jews can have a homeland in the Middle East, but their safety can only be achieved by dismantling the Jewish state, Mamdani said. His speech was a political challenge to Jewish anti-Zionists, now just a splinter, to launch a political struggle inside the Jewish community to liberate it from Zionism.

Substantial excerpts:

There was no military victory against apartheid in South Africa. I begin with that. The end of apartheid was a negotiated settlement.

Boycott and collaboration are two ends of a spectrum of tactics. In the middle lie different forms of critical engagement. The Boycott was one instrument among many. To view the boycott in isolation would be misleading. To see the boycott in a larger context is to understand the politics that informed the boycott. Thus my question: What was the decisive moment of that anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa, what was the South African moment?

My argument would be the following. I believe the South African moment involved a triple shift. It was first a shift from demanding the end of apartheid to providing an alternative to apartheid.

Second, it was a shift from representing the oppressed, the black people of South Africa, the majority, to representing the whole people of South Africa.

Third, it was a turn from resisting within the terms set by apartheid to redefining the very terms of how South Africa should be governed.

I’ll try to explain this in some detail now.

The South African moment took shape over time, in response to a set of challenges faced by the anti-apartheid struggle. I want to begin, 1963, Sharpeville, the birth of the armed struggle, the armed guerrilla whose objective was to liberate the unarmed population, the professional revolutionary patterned after Lenin’s injunctions in What Is to Be Done? a vanguard whose mission was to to lead and liberate the people. In Marxist imagery, guerrillas were like the fish in water, the guerrilla, the fish, was active; the water supportive. As armed struggle unfolded as a project, the results were by and large disappointing, even negative: the more activists moved into exile, the more the population was pacified. Capital took command. The 1960s was a time of rapid economic development. It was a time of the huge inflow of capital, foreign capital into South Africa. Economic historians speak of the 60s as the decade that led to the secondary industrialization of the South African economy. From the point of view of the people, the 1960s was a decade of relative silence, the silence of the graveyard.

That silence was shattered by Soweto 1975. The significance of Soweto was threefold. First, it shifted the initiative from the professional revolutionaries in exile to community-based activists. Second, it shifted the focus from armed struggle to direct action. The youth of Soweto had no more than stones. In both these [respects] Soweto invokes the first intifada in Palestine, But Soweto also involved an ideological shift, a shift in popular perspective so vast that one may speak of it as a sea change. Before Soweto, the resistance in South Africa developed within the framework set by apartheid.

To understand this framework, we need to look at the apartheid mode of governance. Apartheid divided the whole population into races, Africans, Indians, coloreds, whites, called so many population groups. In response each population group organized separately as a race, Africans as African National Congress, Indians organized by Gandhi as Natal Indian Conference — I’m sorry but the historical Gandhi does not conform to the image of Gandhi you are being asked to produce in Palestine– the coloreds organized as the Coloured People’s Congress, and the whites organized as Congress of Democrats.

The Congress alliance was an umbrella alliance of these separate, racially-based resistance groups. This is how the mode of governance of apartheid became naturalized as a mode of resistance. There were two major breaches in this mindset. The first breach was 1955, the ANC charter, the Freedom Charter which contained a clause, “South Africa belongs to all those who live in it.” This was an elite declaration, but it was a declaration of huge significance ideologically. It was the birth of nonracialism.

The second breach, just as fundamental if not more so, was the work of Steve Biko and the black consciousness movement. And this was from below, an alliance of ordinary people, mainly students, and the left. The Freedom Charter created a basis for an alliance at the top; its effect was to incorporate individual whites into the apartheid movement. That was its importance. South Africa claimed to be the only democracy south of the Sahara, just as Israel claims to be the only democracy in the region. Both were democracies, but they were democracies for a clearly defined racial group. Both were and are racially defined, a democracy for Jews only in Israel, and a democracy for whites only in South Africa. Turning democracy into a figleaf hiding racial privilege.

The ANC put forward a meaningful notion of democracy. Not a democracy of only one racial group, not even of the majority as opposed to the minority, but a democracy for all. Individual white anti apartheid activists began to join the ANC. I was very happy to hear that there are Jewish members of BDS. I didn’t know that. I’m very happy to hear that.

Black consciousness was a unity from below. It was a unity of all the oppressed, because black consciousness included Africans, Indians and coloreds. Apartheid power had fragmented the subject population. The census recorded this fragmentation as separate groups. The great historical achievement of black consciousness was to pull the rug from under the apartheid governance. Black, said Biko, is not a color, black is an experience. If you are oppressed you are black.

Now is there a lesson here for the anti-Zionist struggle? I believe there is.

The Palestinian predicament is not the same as that of the South Africans under apartheid. In 1960’s there was a Palestinian delegation which came to Dar es Salaam, in Tanzania, and they met [President Julius] Nyerere. Nyerere told them, “Your situation is worse than anything we have faced on this continent. We lost our independence, you lost your country.” Only a small minority of South Africans were driven out of their country. The majority of Palestinians live outside historic Palestine. That is a phenomenal disaster.

On the other side, the positive side, the extraordinary resilience of the Palestinian people in the face of overwhelming odds, cannot go unnoticed by anybody. We live at a time when political violence has been conflated with criminal violence, when all forms of resistance are being redefined as terror, when repression is embraced as a war on terror. The major exception to this global trend is Palestine. It is a tribute to the tenacity of the Palestinian people, led by those in Gaza, and the political work done by the Palestinian resistance, including BDS, that Israel and the United States have been unable to tar popular resistance in historic Palestine with the brush of terrorism. More than ever the world is convinced that the cause of the Palestinian people is just.

What then is the major hindrance to moving forward?

Is it the military power of the US and Israel? I think it would be a mistake to think so.

In my view the problem is twofold.

Secondarily, the US and Israel are not yet convinced that a military solution to the Palestinian resistance is out of question.

Primarily, the Israeli people, the majority Jewish population within the state of Israel, is not yet convinced that it has an option other than Zionism. This is the real challenge. The Zionist message to the Jewish population of Israel is this, Zionism is your only guarantee against another holocaust. Your only defense against a second holocaust is the state of Israel.

The real challenge the Palestinian resistance faces is political not military.

Let me return to apartheid south Africa to clarify that challenge. Consider two facts.

The party of apartheid, the National Party, came to power through elections in the 1960s and was returned to power with a greater majority in every other election, every four years. The dissolution of political apartheid also involved a whites-only referendum, whereby the white population authorized its government to negotiate with representatives of the black majority. This referendum went alongside a debate in both the white and black population. In the black population, the rejectionist view was advanced by the Pan African Congress, the PNC. The PNC slogan was, One settler, one bullet. The Algerian solution: get the settlers out. In the white population, the rejectionist view was challenged by a number of organizations, from the conservative party to the AWB [Afrikaner Resistance Movement], but it was best reflected in a book by a journalist called Rian Malan, My Traitor’s Heart. Rian Malan was the descendant of a former state president of South Africa. [Mamdani states that Malan’s book was composed of reports of gruesome crimes perpetrated by blacks in black parts of Johannesburg].The subtext of the book was, If this is what they can do to their own, what will they do to you? This is what black South Africans are. Rian Malan failed to convince the majority of whites in South Africa. Why? Because important sections of the liberation movement had begun to think in holistic terms. The struggle in South Africa was not against settlers, it was against settler power. Without a state that legally underwrites settler privilege, settlers would just turn into ordinary immigrants.

The South African moment was when important sections of the liberation camp redefined the enemy not as settlers but as the settler state, not as whites, but white power. By doing so, they provided whites with an alternative: not a democracy for whites only, but a non racial democracy.

In 1993 I was in Durban when the head of the South African communist party Chris Hani was assassinated in a suburb of Johannesburg. Hundreds of thousands gathered at his funeral to pay homage and to listen to Mandela. The police said they were not sure they could control the crowds. The mine workers said they could– and they did control the crowds. Mandela did not just address the mourners at the stadium at Soweto, he addressed the whole country. From that day, though [F.W.] de Klerk was still the the president of South Africa, Mandela was its undisputed leader.

[Mamdani relates that he taught at Capetown University and gave an inaugural lecture in 1998].

The title of my lecture was, “When does a settler become a native?” And the auditorium was packed with whites! They wanted the answer! When does a settler become a native?  And my answer was never. Never. Because I argued, native is the creation of the settler state. The native is invented as the other of the settler. If the settler is defined by history, the native is said to be defined by geography. If the settler makes his and her own history, the native is said to be the unthinking captive of an unchanging custom. And so on. And my conclusion was, settler and native go together. They are reproduced through a relationship between the two. Neither can exist in isolation. When you destroy one, the other ceases to exist.

Liberation in South Africa was the result of a combination of factors. War in the region, direct action within the country, and a changing balance of power globally. The decisive battle of the war in the region was Cuito Cuanavale in Angola, between Cuban forces and the South African forces [in 1987-88], and the South African defense force was defeated. It precipitated the independence of Namibia. The regional isolation of South Africa was complete. And the limits of its military power were clear.

The decisive factor was internal, direct action. From Durban 1973 and Soweto 1975, to insurrection in the townships, and divestment and boycott in the 1980s– internationally you had the end of the cold war, and once the cold war ended there was no morally compelling reason to support apartheid. All these developments were important but as I said the decisive development was the internal development.

Direct action began in the 1960s and developed in the 70s and the 80s, it was a response to what was evident to all. That the armed struggle was a propaganda weapon at best and an empty boast at worst. The beginning of direct action was in the late 60s with a split in the liberal white student organization. The liberal white student organization had admitted black members, and the black members in the late 60 decided to form their own separate organization, started AZASO, and out of AZASO came Black Consciousness. Both wings, the white and the black wings now in separate organizations, reached out to mobilize different sections of the community against apartheid. The black students moved to the townships and they organized the communities and resident workers against apartheid. White students moved to the hostels to organize migrant labor.

Out of this organization were born two different federations, at two different times, separated by a decade. One FOSATU, whose leadership included very important young white students or former students. The other COSATU whose leadership came from the community itself. The importance of the white students was not numerical, they were few in number. But they were key organizers of migrant labor and FOSATU. They joined the ANC and the Communist Party and when the time came they provided the most effective channels of communication with the white population.

I have two conclusions. My first conclusion is that the Anti apartheid struggle educated white South Africa, that Apartheid’s claim that there would be No white security without white power was a hoax. That the reverse was true, that security required that whites give up their monopoly of power.

The Palestinian challenge is to persuade the Jewish population and the world, Just as in South africa, the longtime security of a Jewish homeland in historic Palestine requires the dismantling of the Jewish state. The lesson for Palestine and Israel, is that historic Palestine can be a homeland for Jews but not for Jews only. Jews can have a homeland in historic Palestine. but not a state.

My second conclusion is this. Legal and political apartheid ended in 1994. Now 1994 is a critical event in African contemporary history. It’s the time when two very different events took place: the transition from apartheid in South Africa, and the genocide in Rwanda. Both of them happened in the first half of 1994. Ten years earlier, 1984, if you had asked African intellectuals, if you had told them that ten years from now there is going to be a reconciliation in one of these countries and a genocide in another, and asked them to predict the identity, I bet you every one of us would have been wrong. Every one of us. Why? Because 1980s was the time of the township struggle in South Africa. The South African army was occupying townships, shooting, killing, throwing people in prisons. And the 1980s was the time when the regime in Rwanda was attempting a reconciliation.

Ten years later the world had changed. It is testimony to the fact that nothing is inevitable in politics.

I wish you the best. Thank you.

A few comments. Please note the great political insights in this speech: that violent Palestinian resistance is not understood as terrorism by the world in light of the Palestinian experience, and this is a Gazan/Palestinian achievement in the face of massive propaganda. Also, that the US and Israel have not yet been convinced that there is not a military answer to resistance. What a pity, that (and the media are the courtiers of empire).

As for the heart of the speech, that night at Columbia an elderly Jewish man asked the panel about a “political solution that might satisfy Jewish paranoia.” Omar Barghouti’s answer to that (and other related questions) was that Jewish safety can’t be achieved by taking his land. Mahmood Mamdani’s answer to that man’s fear is that this is a Jewish and global political problem; Jews must work with Palestinians who are resisting occupation so as to educate themselves; and a vanguard of enlightened Jews must work inside the Jewish community to persuade it of the conceptual error of Zionism.

Mamdani’s speech should be required reading in the fledgling Open Hillel/IfNotNow movement. He is saying, Your work is essential, it is a historic shift in Jewish life. But it must involve organizing with Palestinians and then going into the Jewish community to explain what the future holds.

One last point. In 1963 Mamdani won an American scholarship to study at the University of Pittsburgh; and he soon joined the SNCC bus rides to Birmingham, Alabama, and was arrested. He recalls that experience:

Allowed to make one phone call from jail, I called the Uganda ambassador in Washington DC. ‘What are you doing interfering in the internal affairs of a foreign country?’, he asked.

‘This is not an internal affair. This is a freedom struggle. How can you forget? We just got our freedom last year’, was my response. I had learnt that freedom knew no boundary, certainly not that of colour or country.

How many young people today understand this charge?

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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190 Responses

  1. eljay
    December 7, 2014, 12:21 pm

    The Palestinian challenge is to persuade the Jewish population and the world … the longtime security of a Jewish homeland in historic Palestine requires the dismantling of the Jewish state. The lesson for Palestine and Israel, is that historic Palestine can be a homeland for Jews but not for Jews only. Jews can have a homeland in historic Palestine. but not a state.

    The challenge for the rest of the world – especially the U.S. and other enablers and supporters of Zio-supremacism and the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State” of Israel – is to consistently advocate for and uphold justice, equality and accountability.

    • Horizontal
      December 7, 2014, 2:59 pm

      You are right, eljay.

      After looking over congress, I’d say that’s a tall order. Those three words you mentioned aren’t the usual ones that emanate from their actions.

  2. DoubleStandard
    December 7, 2014, 12:33 pm

    Is this satire? How would dismantling Israel make jews safe? Jews didn’t have Israel for 2000 years and certainly weren’t safe. Sure it looks dangerous – – Hamas, hezbollah, Isis, etc. But it’s much safer than jews being a scattered minority.

    The cognitive dissonance required to believe in anti zionism as an anti racist movement can only be attributed to God.

    • just
      December 7, 2014, 12:50 pm

      DS:

      1) You didn’t comprehend the article.

      2) Do you blame God for everything that you don’t like/comprehend?

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 12:53 pm

        Thanks for this article, Phil.

        Many thanks to Professor Mahmood Mamdani. Wow.

      • DoubleStandard
        December 7, 2014, 12:58 pm

        Of course I comprehended the article. Its point is just so ridiculously shortsighted and at odds with the historical record that it’s a wonder that it could be seriously presented at a reputable University.

        There are a lot of things in life that aren’t understandable without God. That a website like this exists testifies to his “existence.”

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 1:56 pm

        “2) Do you blame God for everything that you don’t like/comprehend?”

        Oh, no, absolutely not. After all, what would blaming God for the Arabs imply?

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 5:34 pm

        “There are a lot of things in life that aren’t understandable without God.”

        Ah, that must be why so many phonies, moral cowards, theives, rapists, perverts, financial frauds and murderers use God to hide behind. You are probably right, DS. Hadn’t thought about it like that before.

      • tree
        December 7, 2014, 8:30 pm

        There are a lot of things in life that aren’t understandable without God.

        And there are even more things in life that aren’t understandable with God. The only difference is that belief in God (or Gods, for that matter) allows one to cease trying to understand. ‘God does it all and I don’t need to understand, just believe.’

    • Sycamores
      December 7, 2014, 1:21 pm

      strange that, 2000 years ago Israel wasn’t that safe of a place for the Jewish people. according to one line of thought they fled from Israel to safer climes.

    • joemowrey
      December 7, 2014, 2:42 pm

      Right. All those poor Jews living as a “scattered minority” across the United States…how do they ever survive in such an unsafe environment? They should unite and form a Jewish State here, then pass laws privileging them and giving them dominance over all the non-Jews. That would make them much safer, no doubt.

      • tree
        December 7, 2014, 8:37 pm

        They should unite and form a Jewish State here, then pass laws privileging them and giving them dominance over all the non-Jews. That would make them much safer, no doubt.

        Its rather amazing how difficult a concept this is for Zionist Jews to comprehend, isn’t it. If you treat people like shit and claim that you have a right to do this simply because you are Jewish, those people you shit on will hate you and begin to believe that your Jewishness is the problem, since you keep insisting that it is, in your own clueless way.

        So far I would say that, given the example of Israel, Zionist Jews don’t have the faintest idea how to run a state and probably shouldn’t do so until they grow up and understand cause and effect.

      • bilal a
        December 7, 2014, 10:01 pm

        Yes, this strategy has worked quite well in the USA, thank you very much.

    • Horizontal
      December 7, 2014, 2:56 pm

      DS ~

      You meant “How would dismantling Zionist Israel make Jews safe?” Big difference.

      Have you gotten a load of Israel lately?

    • eljay
      December 7, 2014, 3:25 pm

      >> DoubleStandardeee: Is this satire? How would dismantling Israel make jews safe? Jews didn’t have Israel for 2000 years and certainly weren’t safe. Sure it looks dangerous – – Hamas, hezbollah, Isis, etc. But it’s much safer than jews being a scattered minority.

      Is this satire? The solution to acts of injustice and immorality committed against minorities in various countries around the world is the consistent application of justice, accountability and equality. The solution is not the establishment of one supremacist state for each minority.

    • Sulphurdunn
      December 7, 2014, 3:33 pm

      More Jews live in the US than live in Israel, and they are one hell of a lot safer here than they are there.

      • bilal a
        December 7, 2014, 10:04 pm

        and a lot more prosperous, which is why I hear Hebrew so often in NYC these days. This is perhaps the best of the diaspora, those who voted with their feet.

      • jon s
        December 8, 2014, 3:24 pm

        Know the phrase “been there, done that”?

        We’ve had the experience of not having a Jewish state, and it wasn’t so great, didn’t turn out well…

      • jon s
        December 8, 2014, 3:27 pm

        Sulphurdunn,
        What makes you think that the US is safer? Based on what?

      • eljay
        December 8, 2014, 3:37 pm

        >> jon s: Know the phrase “been there, done that”? We’ve had the experience of not having a Jewish state, and it wasn’t so great, didn’t turn out well…

        …and did not (and still does not) justify the creation of a supremacist “Jewish State”.

      • seafoid
        December 8, 2014, 3:39 pm

        “We’ve had the experience of not having a Jewish state, and it wasn’t so great, didn’t turn out well… ”

        It doesn’t seem to have been bad outside Europe, Jon.
        and Jews never had to kill people to feel safe , as you do in Israel.

      • tree
        December 8, 2014, 5:27 pm

        jon s,

        Well, Europe was where 90% of the Jewish people were.

        Wrong. According to the AJC (American Jewish Committee), in 1939:

        Of the total number of 15,748,091 Jews in the world,
        8,939,608 reside in Europe, 598,339 in Africa, 839,809 in
        Asia, 27,016 in Australasia, and 5,343,319 in America.
        Thus, 56.77% live in Europe, 33.93% in America, 5.33%
        in Asia, 3.80% in Africa, and 0.17% in Australasia.

        http://www.ajcarchives.org/AJC_DATA/Files/1940_1941_8_Statistics.pdf

        page 593

        And by the way, no one was particularly “safe” in Europe in WWII. Nazi Germany had plans to destroy Poland and Eastern Europe and genocide hundreds of millions of Slavs and Russians. They didn’t achieve their goals, but not because those people “had a country”, or several countries, but because it was a plan on too large a scale for Germany to carry out. Still, they killed tens of millions of non-Jews.

        Having a country didn’t save the Poles, from either the Germans or the Soviet Russians. Having a country didn’t save Iraqis, or Syrians, or Congolese, or Cambodians. Nor did it save those Japanese killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nor the farmers (kulaks) in Soviet Russia, or the peasants in El Salvador.

        Israel has what “safety” it has because it is supported by the US. Without that support it could not do what it does, which it falsely claims is “self-defense’ when it is really just pure bullying and oppressing non-Jews in the territory it covets. It won’t bring safety to Israel. It will destroy it in the end, and at that point it will be hard for anyone to have much sympathy since it will be its own fault, and no one else’s. You don’t “liberate” yourself by oppressing other people. This is a lesson that Israel seems incapable of learning. And you are part of the problem.

      • JWalters
        December 8, 2014, 5:53 pm

        Good point. The U.S. Constitution prohibits a national religion to eliminate exactly these kinds of religious conflicts. The evidence is showing clearly it works better than the Zionist approach.

      • lysias
        December 8, 2014, 5:55 pm

        Speaking of Poland and the Nazis, I was pleased to see Shlomo Sand in his latest book criticize the Israeli-funded movie Shoah for being so absurdly anti-Polish, making it seem as if Poles somehow were more responsible for the Holocaust than the Germans. Anti-Semitic many of the Poles may have been, but they bear zero responsibility for the Holocaust. They were fellow victims, to the extent of having some three million non-Jewish Poles killed (as many as the Polish Jews). The Germans employed Ukrainians and Balts in the death camps, but, as far as I know, no Poles at all (if we don’t count the Polish prisoners).

    • bilal a
      December 7, 2014, 4:52 pm

      Cognitive dissonance :

      the consensus of zionist jewish liberals (Wieseltier, Peretz) and the anti zionist jewish liberals (blumenthal, sheen) in despizing the Torah , ie they both despize orthodox Judaism.

      -> from which comes the implication that the ‘Jewish State’ has nothing to do with Judaism per se , rather some secular ethno-religious identity ( surely not a racial category, eg Ethipian Jews)

      –> from which a question, what is the identity, exactly, that the Jewish state seeks to preserve?

      answer : Jewish anti-Judaism ?

      Religion and Secularism in Israel: Unholy Conflict in the Holy Land
      http://www.spiegel.de/international/religion-and-secularism-in-israel-unholy-conflict-in-the-holy-land-a-469996.html

      • jon s
        December 8, 2014, 4:35 pm

        Seafoid,
        Well, Europe was where 90% of the Jewish people were.

        The Jewish experience in Africa and Asia wasn’t always so great, either.

        Sometimes it’s unfortunately necessary to kill in order to be safe. It’s known as self-defense, and is not unique to Israel.

      • just
        December 8, 2014, 4:45 pm

        jons~ what Israel has been doing to Palestinians is not “self- defense”.

        sorry for you, but the mask has been ripped off.

      • seafoid
        December 8, 2014, 4:50 pm

        Jon

        Europe was 60% in 1933. And killing 500 kids is not self defence.

      • eljay
        December 8, 2014, 5:01 pm

        >> jon s: Sometimes it’s unfortunately necessary to kill in order to be safe. It’s known as self-defense …

        Exactly. If the rapist lets his victim go, she’ll bring the cops down on him. In order to be safe, he has to kill her in self-defence. She leaves him no choice.

        It’s nice that you understand.

      • American
        December 8, 2014, 5:45 pm

        @ tree

        Ditto—- Bravo!

    • RoHa
      December 7, 2014, 6:56 pm

      “Jews didn’t have Israel for 2000 years and certainly weren’t safe.”

      That’s true. None of them survived.

      • jon s
        December 9, 2014, 4:28 am

        My mistake for not specifying what I meant by “was” (when? in the past).
        I was referring to the the 19th century, before the beginning of mass emigration from Europe, primarily to North America.

    • Sibiriak
      December 7, 2014, 9:13 pm

      DoubleStandard: “ How would dismantling Israel make jews safe?

      —–

      A somewhat different question: “How could Palestinians convince Israeli Jews that dismantling Israel would make Israeli Jews feel safe?”

      I don’t see that happening in the foreseeable future.

      • pabelmont
        December 8, 2014, 12:02 pm

        Sibiriak: “I don’t see that happening in the foreseeable future. ”

        Neither did Mamdani. He merely said it was the prerequisite for a fairly-voluntary negotiated peace more or less fair to Palestinians.

        He did not, I believe, discuss the alternative of a “solution” imposed on Israel (or on all parties) by outside forces. However, he did say that this is what happened, the deKlerk moment, in South Africa. and that followed a siege of BDS. so, perhaps, BDS begins the “outside pressure” Which makes colonizers re-think the matter.

      • Sibiriak
        December 9, 2014, 6:32 am

        Sibiriak: A somewhat different question: “How could Palestinians convince Israeli Jews that dismantling Israel would make Israeli Jews feel safe?” I don’t see that happening in the foreseeable future.

        pabelmont: Neither did Mamdani

        ——

        Well, Mamdani (and Weiss) did assert that such a persuasive effort was in order, which implies that it has a foreseable chance of success.

        pabelmont: “ He merely said it was the prerequisite for a fairly-voluntary negotiated peace more or less fair to Palestinians. He did not, I believe, discuss the alternative of a “solution” imposed on Israel (or on all parties) by outside forces.

        He also did not, in the excerpts above, explain how Israeli Jews could NOT be persuaded to dismantle a PORTION of the Zionist-state –a minority of the settlements for a two-state settlement– but COULD somehow be persuaded to dismantle the ENTIRE Zionist state.

    • Daniel Rich
      December 8, 2014, 7:01 pm

      @ DoubleStandards,

      god’s best invention was to team up with his sidekick ‘Beelzebub,’ the go-to-guy to be blamed for everything that got ff-ed up.

      As a closet heretic, I’m very much impressed by such a brilliant, Machiavellian move.

    • Misterioso
      October 22, 2017, 9:05 pm

      @DoubleStandard

      Zionism is racism. Zionism is theft. Zionism is fascism.

      Reality: Foreign Jews had the same right to Palestine as Irish Catholics and Mexican atheists, i.e., none whatsoever!! Therein lies the root of the conflict.

      Israel: 69 years of trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

      Prophetic comments by five eminent Jews:

      Then Secretary of State for India and the British cabinet’s only Jewish member, Lord Edwin Montagu’s response to Prime Minister Lloyd George following issuance of the illegal 1917 Balfour Declaration: “All my life I have been trying to get  out of the ghetto. You want to force me back there.”

      Henry Morgenthau Sr., renowned Jewish American and former U.S. Ambassador to Turkey, 1919: “Zionism is the most stupendous fallacy in Jewish history….The very fervour of my feeling for the oppressed of every race and every land, especially for the Jews, those of my own blood and faith, to whom I am bound by every tender tie, impels me to fight with all the greater force against this scheme, which my intelligence tells me can only lead them deeper into the mire of the past, while it professes to be leading them to the heights.  Zionism is… a retrogression into the blackest error, and not progress toward the light.” (Quoted by Frank Epp, Whose Land is Palestine?, p. 261)                                                                                  

      Asked to sign a petition supporting settlement of Jews in Palestine, Sigmund Freud declined: “I cannot…I do not think that Palestine could ever become a Jewish state….It would have seemed more sensible to me to establish a Jewish homeland on a less historically-burdened land….I can raise no sympathy at all for the  misdirected piety which transforms a piece of a Herodian wall into a national relic, thereby offending the feelings of the natives.” (Letter to Dr. Chaim Koffler Keren HaYassod, Vienna: 2/26/30)

      Albert Einstein, 1939: “There could be no greater calamity than a permanent discord between us and the Arab people…. Let us recall that in former times no people lived in greater friendship with us than the ancestors of these Arabs.”

      Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, 1944:  “The concept of a racial state – the Hitlerian concept- is repugnant to the civilized world, as witness the fearful global war in which we are involved. . . , I urge that we do nothing to set us back on the road to the past. To project at this time the creation of a Jewish state or commonwealth is to launch a singular innovation in world affairs which might well have incalculable consequences.”

  3. Ramzi Jaber
    December 7, 2014, 12:47 pm

    Truly profound and thought-provoking, just amazing. Thank you Mr. Mamdani.

    The fundamental proposition he’s making, that Jews can only be safe when they dismantle the Jewish state, is supported by zionism itself. I always believed that zionism caused the most lasting and long-term harm, not to Palestinians, but to Jews. The same very people that zionism said it was created to protect in the late 1800s due to events in Europe at the time.

    In the zealousness of zionists to create a state for the Jews so they are no longer discriminated again and excluded and being picked on as different, zionism pushed for and succeeded (for now ) in creating a state for the Jews, and hence, making very prominent globally the very thing that zionism should have not done – making Jews appear, behave, and be perceived as different and better than everyone else.

    zionism made grave historical and consequential mistake: instead of dividing and differentiating Jews and segregating them into an ethno-religious country on someone else’s land, zionists should have have put all their resources and effort into defending the rights of each and every minority in each and every country in the world, guaranteeing along the way total equality, justice, protection, and safety to Jews anywhere.

    But the course zionists took led us to the mess we’re in where Jews are less safe, less secure. A place where the state that they illegally forced upon the world is divided upon itself, torn apart between religion and democracy – asking itself are we jewish? are we democratic? are we jewish and democratic? Only realizing that they have injected religion into the discourse, a path in which no one will exit as a winner. For there is no possibility for any state to achieve a religious and a democratic doctrine. Look at Iran, Iraq, etc. etc.

    So yes, Mr. Mamdani is totally right: the future of Jews can be safe and secure without zionism and without a jewish state, In fact, that is the only way to guarantee the safety and security of Jews and to build a true lasting peace in Palestine where Christians, Moslems, and Jews live together in peace and equality.

    • Mooser
      December 7, 2014, 1:48 pm

      The same divisions that run through the rest of the world also run through “the Jews”.

    • Mooser
      December 7, 2014, 9:03 pm

      No matter what kind of a State the Zionists might make, don’t most of the things that concern us here take place in territory which is by no stretch of the imagination the Israeli State?

    • Mooser
      December 7, 2014, 9:07 pm

      “Only realizing that they have injected religion into the discourse, a path in which no one will exit as a winner. For there is no possibility for any state to achieve a religious and a democratic doctrine. Look at Iran, Iraq, “

      Yup when the CIA injected religion into Iran’s affairs in 1953, it was a ruinous day. And when George Bush let loose the full force of American religion on Iraq, in 2003 it was a disaster.
      Yes, look what religion has done to Iran and Iraq, especially.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 9:28 pm

        Great comment, Mooser.

    • bintbiba
      December 9, 2014, 6:59 am

      Good to hear from you, Ramzi !

  4. pabelmont
    December 7, 2014, 12:56 pm

    Phil: “Mamdani’s speech should be required reading in the fledgling Open Hillel/IfNotNow movement. He is saying, Your work is essential, it is a historic shift in Jewish life. But it must involve organizing with Palestinians and then going into the Jewish community to explain what the future holds.”

    So right!.

    I remember when an old organization I was part if (media director of for a while), “SEARCH for Justice and Equality in Palestine” changed its name to “SEARCH for Justice and Equality in Palestine/Israel”.

    We gained some members and lost some members. It was the right way to go. Inclusive.

    And the SEARCH goes on.

    • pabelmont
      December 7, 2014, 1:15 pm

      To your list, add JVP and so forth. The challenge for Zionists is to shift their world-view so as to see all people, Jews and Palestinians among them, as equally deserving human beings rather than, as today, painting Palestinians (incorrectly) as devils whilst becoming actual devils themselves. A sea change indeed. Won’t be easy for the hard cases, but seems there may be some hope for the Jewish youth.

      • seafoid
        December 7, 2014, 1:50 pm

        Jews need trauma counselling , they are not going to reach the state of zen with leaders like netanyahu.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 1:59 pm

        “Jews need trauma counselling”

        I never quite understand where you come up with this. The behavior of Zionism doesn’t look to me like it represents any fear of, or even familiarity (except, perhaps as a pretense) with trauma.
        But it might be too deep for me to grasp, lot’s of things are.

      • W.Jones
        December 7, 2014, 7:02 pm

        Sure, both sides of the conflict suffered trauma, but since the brunt of it has been suffered by palestinians in terms of occupation and casualties, why are Israelis becoming more right wing, if it is down to trauma?

  5. ivri
    December 7, 2014, 12:58 pm

    This is all part of a psychological warfare against Israel by Muslims. Having tried everything conceivable against Israel: wars, terror, embargo, sanctions, missiles, boycott threats, UN resolutions and failed in all they now turn to such vague threats. Are not they aware of their own constituency`s plight throughout the world? – In many African countries, China, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Myanmar, in Europe and soon also in North-America – everywhere in the world and most prominently so in the Middle-East itself – that Palestine and Israel is so central in their eyes. It is as absurd as ridiculous – Israel can ignore these fantasizing clowns at THEIR own peril.

    • eljay
      December 7, 2014, 6:44 pm

      >> ivreee @ December 7, 2014, 12:58 pm

      In other words: No matter how much she screams, cries or tries to hurt me; no matter how often the cops snoop around my house; and no matter how much society says it’s wrong, I’m going to keep that bitch chained up in my basement ’cause she’s mine, g*ddammit.

      It’s disturbing that you Zio-supremacists are so devoid of any sense of justice or morality.

    • Horizontal
      December 7, 2014, 8:18 pm

      You really don’t get it, do you?

      • ivri
        December 8, 2014, 5:24 am

        @Horizontal
        Why? Your house is burning and you run out to reprimand a neighbor for not parking properly

      • ziusudra
        December 9, 2014, 3:39 am

        Greetings ivri,
        …the house…..

        Oy, de house, (land, water & all other resources,) i stole is burning so i went outside to chide the Falesteeni as to why they don’t get de buckets of water to assist me out of neighborly menschlichkeit?
        ziusudra
        PS How’s a Yid to exist w/o de Pals support?

    • Mooser
      December 8, 2014, 1:04 pm

      “This is all part of a psychological warfare against Israel by Muslims.”

      Let us pray to the Zionist Goddess: ‘Mommeeeee, he’s using psychology on me! Make him stop!’

      It is so cool that you guys have a Goddess instead of a God, very up-to-date.

  6. eh-nyc
    December 7, 2014, 1:21 pm

    Phil- respectfully, I disagree with your assesment of the audience for Mamdani’s speech, while I agree that it is a very important intervention.

    First of all, I think that anti-Zionist Jews outside of historical Palestine, by definition, have to reject the Zionist assumption that as Jews they will have any stake in a future non-Zionist Palestine necessarily. While the role of anti- or non-Zionist Jews as allies in solidarity with a liberation struggle is crucial, and while they certainly may have opinions as to what visions of society they would like to see, they are not stakeholders in the future community.

    Secondly, I think the anti-Zionist Jews of contemporary Israel probably already agree largely with Mamdani’s points and probably are working as hard as they can to convince their society.

    I do think that there is a need for more loud, clear Palestinian voices making this vision heard. The BDS call is not the Freedom Charter. It is the basic minimum standards of solidarity. While it is grounded in basic principles of equality under the law and human rights for all, it is a tool of struggle, not a positive framework for a future society. The One State Group offers such a vision, but I don’t think it can be said to be broadly representative of opinion or legitimacy in Palestinian society either within Palestine or without.

    There is not, as far as I know, a political group or party equivalent to the ANC within the Palestinian context, and I think there desperately needs to be.

  7. hophmi
    December 7, 2014, 1:31 pm

    “that violent Palestinian resistance is not understood as terrorism by the world in light of the Palestinian experience, and this is a Gazan/Palestinian achievement in the face of massive propaganda.”

    It’s not an achievement in the face of massive propaganda. It’s an achievement of massive propaganda.

    South Africa is not a place where white people are safe, and the situation is getting worse, not better, as young black South Africans are increasingly falling under the sway of extremists like Julius Malema.

    Mamdani thinks he can argue on the one hand that killing Jewish infants is not terrorism but that Jews should feel safe. That’s silly.

    • Horizontal
      December 7, 2014, 8:19 pm

      I think you’re ignoring the big picture here. On purpose.

      • JWalters
        December 8, 2014, 6:09 pm

        Horizontal, probably true. When people in a discussion don’t respond to obvious facts, they are not seeking the truth, in my experience. They are trying to force a pre-decided conclusion, perhaps from fear, perhaps for money.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 2:36 pm

        “perhaps for money.”

        Maybe for money. I guess you could ask yourself how much you would pay to keep “ivri” on the web, pitching your case? Me, the only thing I’d pay him to do is go away.

      • ivri
        December 9, 2014, 3:29 pm

        @Mooser
        With pleasure, and then you will have a noise–free eco-chamber!! – what can be more enjoyable than that? (never mind reality – it will take care of itself as it has ever done). My acct. number in Luxembourg will be sent to you upon request.

      • hophmi
        December 10, 2014, 11:33 am

        I’m not. You are. I take Mamdani at his word, and I think he’s completely delusional. One state is not what the people want. It’s not what the international community wants. It’s not consistent with international law. And it’s not based in the reality of two competing nationalist visions. It’s based in utopia, and the left has a bad record with utopias.

        I love South Africa, and I enjoyed my visit there, but I can’t say that it’s going in a great direction right now, and regardless, South Africa was completely different; Blacks were 80% of the population and no other solution made any sense, and no other solution was ever seriously considered by the international community. Iraq is another example of a one-state solution. How’s that working right now? How did it work before? How’s the one-state solution been for Lebanon? How’s it been Rwanda? For Congo? Haven’t we learned yet in the West that when we throw warring groups of people together in the same state, it usually doesn’t turn out very well?

      • just
        December 10, 2014, 3:48 pm

        “It’s based in utopia, and the left has a bad record with utopias.”

        No kidding– just look at the terrible mess that Israelis have made of Israel!

        yech.

    • Mooser
      December 7, 2014, 9:49 pm

      “South Africa is not a place where white people are safe, and the situation is getting worse, not better, as young black South Africans are increasingly falling under the sway of extremists like Julius Malema.”

      Oh, that doesn’t worry me (aside from the compassion I have for the unsafe) Hophmi. If anybody threatens me because I appear white, I simply inform them I am Jewish, and all enmity evaporates!

  8. Mooser
    December 7, 2014, 1:54 pm

    Are we talking about the Jews in Israel, or the Jews throughout the world, excepting Israel? Because as far as I know, Israeli Jews and the Jews in the rest of the world live under completely different conditions.
    Another words, as an American Jew, my Jewishness exists in a completely different place (a voluntary and bureaucratically unrecorded religious association) from an Israeli Jews (A bureaucratic, state designation of identity which governs his life, and makes him a privileged person.)

    • seafoid
      December 7, 2014, 1:59 pm

      Jews in israel live in a hebrew echo chamber.
      Other jews mostly don’t and can be brought into contact with reality if required much faster.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 5:45 pm

        Jews in israel live in a hebrew echo chamber.”

        Seafoid, thanks for your efforts in showing that.
        I did not before realize just how much isolation they get from their made-up Hebrew.

      • RoHa
        December 7, 2014, 7:03 pm

        I suspect the made-up languages contributed to Jewish isolation in other parts of the world as well, but that the Hebrew case is more extreme.

      • yonah fredman
        December 8, 2014, 10:04 pm

        mooser and roha dissing jewish languages. nice.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 11:21 pm

        “mooser and roha dissing jewish languages. nice.”

        I’m sure we show them all the respect you show American English, Yonah. You just can’t get enough of that mother-tongue.

      • just
        December 8, 2014, 11:24 pm

        I still think of this from Max’s testimony at the Russell Tribunal:

        “describes pattern of Israeli soldiers asking if anyone speaks Hebrew. Those who answered in the affirmative were shot dead.”

        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/incitement-genocide-humanity#sthash.5ZJ2s8au.dpuf

  9. seafoid
    December 7, 2014, 1:57 pm

    The global jewish community prefers not to think about Dorian Israel. I saw the front page of the juedische Zeitung, germany’s leading jewish newspaper , today. The lead article claimed netanyahu’s jews first law would change nothing, that israel would remain jewish and democratic. It was written by someone from the jpost.

  10. George Smith
    December 7, 2014, 3:12 pm

    A corollary of Mamdani’s thesis is that there must be a credible government in waiting, ready to oversee the transition from ethnocracy to non-ethnocratic democracy. Otherwise, the dominant ethnic group will not be persuaded that there is an alternative to continuing ethnocratic rule. By the 1990s the ANC had built a credible government in waiting, led by Mandela and other visionary leaders, that de Klerk and the Nationalists had confidence in.

    What corresponds in Palestine today to the ANC in, say, 1985? There is no shortage of visionary leaders (no, I’m not talking of Mahmoud Abbas), but there is little by way of organized, non-ethnic political structures comparable to the ANC. The parties of the PLC (legislature created by Oslo) vie with one another to represent the interests of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, but not Palestinians as a whole, and certainly not Israeli Jews. The PNC (theoretically representing the Palestinian people as a whole) is moribund. The “Arab” parties in the Knesset represent the interests of the Palestinian citizens of Israel, even when equality is central to their ideology (e.g., Balad).

    Knesset elections are coming in March 2015, and it looks like the threshold for representation will be increased so that both Balad and United Arab List-Taal are in danger of losing the few seats they have. There is thus an impetus for coalition building. Balad is already proposing coalition lists. Hadash (descendant of the communists) is resisting combining with “Arab” parties like Balad since they are nominally non-ethnic and have a few Jewish members (including one MK). It would be a hopeful sign if such parties could get over their differences. Formation of a coalition party or list that includes both Palestinian and Jewish politicians, and is committed to full equality in Israel itself, would be a significant achievement on the road to democracy.

    I don’t mean to downplay the importance of BDS in any way. That too is vital. And in fact it’s a model for the non-ethnic politics I’m advocating, in that its adherents prominently include Jews, both in the diaspora and in Israel itself. But it’s not a government in waiting. That too is vital in my opinion.

    • Walid
      December 7, 2014, 11:08 pm

      “A corollary of Mamdani’s thesis is that there must be a credible government in waiting, ready to oversee the transition from ethnocracy to non-ethnocratic democracy. Otherwise, the dominant ethnic group will not be persuaded that there is an alternative to continuing ethnocratic rule. ” (George Smith)

      A worthy observation. Did not exist in the days of Arafat and the gang and even less today with Abbas with the same gang, which plays perfectly into the Zionists’ hands. Even worse, is some Palestinian concept that their salvation would come with Marwan Barghouti, which would be more of the same. Palestinians are a very long way off from having their ANC or any other form of government in waiting.

      • GJB
        December 8, 2014, 1:23 pm

        One difference between Barghouti and Abbas might be that unlike Abbas, Barghouti seems to have credibility among the Palestinian population, as one who is both part of the resistance and who understands and is capable of dealing with the Israelis. Part of the problem is that both Israel and the PA see it in their best interests to suppress the democratic process. Pamela Olson relates in “Fast Times in Palestine” how during the last Palestinian Presidential election, Israel and the PA conspired to keep Mustafa Barghouthi (who Pamela was working for at the time) from campaigning. This kind of thing has to stop if there is to be any sort of credible government in waiting.

      • Walid
        December 9, 2014, 4:30 pm

        I get the feeling that Marwan Barghouti would be a clone of Arafat, but I could be mistaken.

  11. mcohen.
    December 7, 2014, 4:16 pm

    mr m&m

    “Africa addio”….remember those days

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_Addio

  12. Kay24
    December 7, 2014, 4:38 pm

    Then comes the Beebs blaming everyone but himself:

    “Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu blamed the Palestinian leadership for the collapse of peace talks and took credit for the failure to reach a nuclear deal with Iran during a pre-recorded speech on Sunday evening to the Brookings Institution’s Saban Forum, currently being held in Washington.

    It was a good thing that the November 24 deadline for reaching a nuclear deal with Iran came to nothing, Netanyahu said. “Even though Israel isn’t part of the P5+1 [negotiating nations] our voice played a critical role in preventing a bad deal.”

    Peace negotiations came to an end earlier this year, because the Palestinians “refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish state,” Netanyahu said.” Haareetz

    It is NEVER their fault, never!

    • ivri
      December 7, 2014, 4:50 pm

      @Kay
      Hey, you rea stealing here the main past argument against Arab countries (admittedly much less now) when Israel was their favorite fig leaf – anything that went wrong, it was the responsibility of “The Zionist entity”.

      • Kay24
        December 7, 2014, 8:10 pm

        At least where the Palestinians under occupation are concerned, that is true.

        It must be a hard sell for Beebs to convince the world, the occupier who massacres and steals, is NOT to be blamed for the misery over there, but chickenshit still keeps trying.

  13. yonah fredman
    December 7, 2014, 5:21 pm

    Edward Said said that he did not know what would happen to the Jews in post Zionist Palestine, but this respected professor from Uganda wants people to be convinced that they can know what post Zionist Palestine will be like? At this point there is nothing to point to a good looking post Zionist Palestine. The only answer of people here is that to suspect the worst is racist and that Zionism is worse than anything that will

    This project of convincing that a state is a danger rather than a cure is a project that’s in its infancy and needs to advance to college level. Currently there is no assurance or even hint of assurance that the South Africa paradigm will predominate over the Algeria paradigm. And to pretend that all that is needed is a campaign of propaganda to open up people’s minds and undo a very real fear is silly at this point of time.

    • yonah fredman
      December 7, 2014, 5:22 pm

      Zionism is worse than anything will take its place is the contention of people here and the end to that paragraph.

      • Nevada Ned
        December 8, 2014, 12:57 am

        Consider two different ways of phrasing the goal:

        Instead of the scary-sounding “dismantling the Zionist state”

        what about saying

        “let the Palestinians return and let them be Israelis also, with the same rights as Jews”

        Netanyahu would welcome the first version. But he would have a hard time dealing with the second version. How can he scare people with the threat of “equal rights?”

      • Sibiriak
        December 8, 2014, 1:50 am

        How can he scare people with the threat of “equal rights?

        ————

        Cf. Michael Mann: “The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing”

        “…democracy has always carried with it the possibility that the majority might tyrannize minorities, and this possibility carries more ominous consequences in certain types of multiethnic environments.”

      • ziusudra
        December 9, 2014, 3:04 am

        Greetings yonah fredman,
        today you beam with Sensability & Menschlichkeit.
        ziusudra

    • Mooser
      December 7, 2014, 5:55 pm

      “And to pretend that all that is needed is a can of propaganda to open up people’s minds mpaigand undo a very real fear is silly at this point of time.”

      Yonah, when you are right, and express it so well in the penultimate sentence in your comment, I can only say: Yonah, you are right! And “to pretend that all that is needed is a can of propaganda to open up people’s minds” is indeed very silly.
      So I’m glad you understand and agree that it will take strict, broad-ranging BDS, and international sanctions, in addition to the most stringent legal and diplomatic penalties to force any change in Israel. I’m glad you’re in favor of applying all of that.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 6:38 pm

        “Israelite identity was never based on either of these. Israelite identity has always been…”

        Oh now the delineation is “Israelite identity”? Sure, okay. Did I ever tell you about the video I saw? It was a marine creature called, I think, a “Nudibranch” which seems to progress through the water by continuously turning itself inside-out. Craziest thing I ever saw.

      • eljay
        December 7, 2014, 7:00 pm

        >> Mooser: Oh now the delineation is “Israelite identity”?

        It’s whatever works at any given time to further the Zio-supremacist agenda:
        – Holocaust
        – Hamas / Iran / Hezbollah
        n centuries or millennia of Biblical “history”
        – Western-style democracy / “moral beacon”
        – not as bad as Saudi Arabia, Mali and African “hell-holes”
        – some of the above
        – all of the above
        – none of the above.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 9:23 pm

        “Edward Said said that he did not know what would happen to the Jews in post Zionist Palestine,”

        Uh, cite, maybe? And when did it become Edward Said’s job to know what would happen to the Jews in post Zionist Palestine? Can’t you people do anything for yourselves? If the Zionists are worried about it, they should make contingency plans for, at least, the people in the settlements.

    • Horizontal
      December 7, 2014, 8:32 pm

      I imagine the whites of South Africa expressed similar fears, yonah.

      When a state lacks any kind of moral or legal legitimacy beyond what it deems solely for itself, then that state is in deep denial. Israel is incapable of fixing itself, based from its establishment on lies, dispossession, inequality and violence. Not a kind of place for fostering good, long-term stability, or democracy, for that matter.

      When you live in a bunker, all you can develop is a bunker mentality. We see the fruits of such a venture,

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 9:39 pm

        “When you live in a bunker, all you can develop is a bunker mentality.”

        Gosh, it makes me wonder what kind of mentality you develop when you have a dual-passport out of the bunker?

      • Horizontal
        December 8, 2014, 11:39 am

        I dunno. Raging entitlement?

  14. just
    December 7, 2014, 5:38 pm

    Via Max B’s twitter, I found this surreal thingy:

    “In response to Haaretz article “Jews, white privilege and the fight against racism in America” (by Benjy Cannon 4/12/14) I would like to say loud and clear: Ashkenazi Jews are not white.

    Secondly, Jews are not a “religion”. While in the Western world identities fall under the categories of religion or race, Middle Eastern people have tribal identities that are based neither the former nor the latter. Jews, similar to Pashtuns (who also often have pale skin and yet would not identify as white people) and other Middle Eastern Tribes, are neither religion nor race but a tribe. Jewish identity since the days of the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel had always been a tribal/national peoplehood. While tribal practices and customs (which is often incorrectly referred to as “Judaism”) and a strong biological link between many of the members are certainly present, Israelite identity was never based on either of these. Israelite identity has always been a tribal membership that goes by lineage (being born into the Tribes of Israel) or tribal acceptance (which is incorrectly translated as “conversion”). The identity Ashkenazi Jews have today is identical to that of King David whose great grandmother was a Moabite convert, but was nonetheless a Jew by virtue of being born into the Tribes of Israel by lineage.”

    You can read more of this stuff @

    http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/ashkenazi-jews-are-not-white-response-to-haaretz-article/

    It only took her 8 months (as far as I can tell) to write this…

    Per Max: “You would think some deranged anti-Semite wrote his but no, it was a Zionist defending her boundless privilege”

    https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/541712518495100929

    • Mooser
      December 7, 2014, 6:25 pm

      You know the one that gets me, and gets me to grinding my gums (all I have left to grind, really) every time I see it? It’s “tribe”, the Jews as a “tribe” I don’t like that, and I’ll tell you why. Try and stop me. I’m talking about today, not Bible Days, when indeed the Jews may have been in tribes.
      I dislike it because “tribe” is an important component of identification for many people, ranging from a family association to an entire governmental system and society, with their own tribal land. It is also an important designation for Native people’s relationship with colonial governments who they have treaties with. “Tribe” is still an important identifier for many people, and it’s use to describe the association of Jews with each other and with the world I think insulting the people for whom tribe is a meaningful designation and identifier. Insulting to them not to us.
      There are millions of people in the world who have a tribal aspect to their lives or indeed may even live a tribal life, as a tribal member or as one of their identity components who don’t do to others, or for that matter each other, what Zionism does.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 6:30 pm

        yes, yes and yes.

        Hers is a diatribe.

      • Horizontal
        December 7, 2014, 8:34 pm

        ;-))

      • Brewer
        December 8, 2014, 1:00 am

        To this Antipodean/Anglo-Saxon/Maori/Scot/Goy….. Jewishness as expressed and enacted by Netanyahu and his ilk appears to be an ideology.

      • Philip Weiss
        December 8, 2014, 10:27 am

        Moose what do you think when Jews say of each other, He’s a MOT, member of the tribe. Ashkenazi American Jews like that signifier. Does that make your fur crawl? If so why? Dont folks who identify get to use terms they like?

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 1:51 pm

        “Dont folks who identify get to use terms they like?”

        Yes, and my censorious forehead very rarely stops them. But I don’t have to like it.
        My feeling is that the parameters and paradigms of Jewish association (the relationship between Jews, as Jews) would have to improve one hell of a lot before we are even in the running for that designation. Unless, of course, you want to use “tribal” in a very, very Orientalist, heart-of-darkness sense, which I’d rather not do.

        Moose what do you think when Jews say of each other, He’s a MOT, member of the tribe.”

        Really, what would I think? Nothing good of the person who said it, and unfortunately, it would, frankly, ill-dispose me to a certain extent towards the person he said it about, even tho they may be completely innocent in the matter.
        I think very little of people who go around telling people what other people’s religion or ethnic extraction is, and using it as some kind of positive or negative reference.
        If somebody started referring to my status as a “member of the tribe” I’d keep one hand on my wallet, and one hand on a lawbook. And that would still leave my balls unprotected.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 2:42 pm

        I mean, besides, in this crazy mixed up world, do you ever really know? Somebody may be MOT or they could simply have the mot jewste for any occasion. You never really know who’s in the kitchen with DNA.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 12:09 am

        “To this Antipodean/Anglo-Saxon/Maori/Scot/Goy…..”

        And Kimbra fan?

      • Brewer
        December 9, 2014, 1:14 pm

        A little long in the tooth for Kimbra – Herbs is more my era:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmu4wR1bTYE

        One memorable night I attended a double bill in a small venue – Herbs and Jimmy Buffet (with the Coral Reefer lineup). Haven’t got a clip of that concert so here’s one of Jimmy doing my favourite Van Morrison track:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elQlvF8I6kc
        ….you will just have to imagine the encore in that first concert when the combined bands brought the house down jamming that song.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 2:43 pm

        Thanks, those were some good videos!

  15. W.Jones
    December 7, 2014, 7:53 pm

    Isn’t the point of Netanyahu’s bill to make the state a Jewish state? If so, then doesn’t that mean that technically Israel is not already a Jewish state? If not, then what Mamdani proposes is already partly in force. The necessary domestic steps then are only to erase the discriminatory laws the SOI has for its Arab minority. That should not put the state into jeopardy. A two state solution that leaves two states each with their respective majorities but does not make either state officially operate as an ethnic state would not bring in security risks.

    <b.My own proposal would be to have a 2SS and also the Right of Return, which would mean that for the Jewish state to continue its borders would have to be more restricted to accommodate the ROR in practice. In other words, the refugees would return to their homes, like in Galilee, and Galilee would, as the UN said in 1947, belong to a Palestinian state. For security purposes, an international UN or NATO force would have to oversee the area.

    As for Mamdani’s thesis, sure, I agree that a factor in encouraging a one state solution would be Israelis’ security. However, I don’t think it’s the main factor, and I do think it would be a serious problem, due in part to the Israelis’ own actions (eg. in their favoritism for Hamas over the PLO), but also due to preexisting factors (the history of religious conflicts in the Mideast in some of the previous centuries).

    I think it’s just a fact that if there was no transition period and the Israelis said that the borders with the WB and Gaza are gone literally tomorrow and everyone gets citizenship, that it would be a big security problem. It would be IN SOME WAYS like unlocking all the doors in a modern US prison and having the prisoners mingle with the guards. -I don’t mean to equate Palestinians with convicts, but rather to think about how the relations between humans change after decades of one group being confined by another one.

    Just face reality- South Africans have said that what Palestinians go through is worse than Apartheid. The latest slaughter in Gaza illustrated that. I also think that the ethos of Christianity, with concepts like forgiveness – not just the ANC’s radical politics, played a role in the success of ending Apartheid. At the present moment, I question how well Hamas and at least a minority of Palestinians would react if they achieved political parity with Israelis. And as a result of all these factors, I think that security is a bigger obstacle than in S.A.

    In any case, my main criticism would be that Mamdani is not wrong, but if it’s his main thesis, then it is missing the point. Security is not really the main obstacles- even if Arabs were as peaceful, secular or Christian, and orderly as Armenians and Ethiopians, it would still take a massive effort to reverse the order of power there.

    Israelis are in control, they don’t plan on an egalitarian one state solution, probably Israeli culture and politics are even more predetermined against it than the Boers’ were, and their actions over the last 5 decades have transformed the region (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not) into one that was on the path to a secular, reformed, pan-Arab political ideology (eg. Nasser’s Egypt), into one a region that is now suffering more from sectarianism, eg. ISIS, and religious politics (eg. Hamas). It would probably take a massive effort by any “side” or key international “player” to transform that reality and make an equal, safe, one state solution practical.

    And then you have to ask, what is going to motivate millions of Palestinians, in the midst of suffering devastating campaign after campaign like Cast Lead, to turn to the kind of model of the ANC on their own? Or, instead of putting the burden on Palestinians, what is going to motivate the international community to put in the intense effort needed to transform the situation like it has the right to do under international law? Since the US is one of the key players, the US would have to change too in its position.

    I see my own proposal as much simpler and practical, and while Mamdani makes a good point about Israeli security regarding the one state solution, the underlying question of the factors necessary for a 1SS go beyond security and would demand whole changes in political (and perhaps religious) culture on both “sides”.

    • Walid
      December 8, 2014, 12:35 pm

      W.Jones, what roles would you see Palestinians playing in a one-state?

      • W.Jones
        December 8, 2014, 5:34 pm

        Walid,

        In the ideal democratic one state covering both the West Bank, Gaza, and the rest of Israel/Palestine, the make-up would be similar to Lebanon or other mixed states with two or more religions with a comparable number of adherents. Palestinians would be the majority simply for the natural reason that they would outnumber Israelis in that same territory. The state would be secular and wouldn’t favor one of the two or three main groups over the other.

        We would be looking at comparably equal roles in the state, such as its legislature, ministries, and presidency. The Palestinians’ role would be one of full political equality in the state that they would share with Israelis.

        The main issue of contention I see, if my ideal was implemented would be economic. That is, in S.A., the gap between rich and poor has worsened since the end of Apartheid. How would we keep from repeating a similar situation of “economic Apartheid” in a united Israel/Palestine, unless we were to adopt Social Democratic policies? Such policies go beyond the vision of political equality and a politically democratic and equal one state, and then go into the realm of economic equality, which is something most of the world still struggles with, due to Neo-Liberalism.

      • Walid
        December 9, 2014, 4:25 pm

        Thanks, W.Jones.

  16. Pixel
    December 7, 2014, 7:57 pm

    Mooser December 7, 2014, 1:59 pm
    “Jews need trauma counselling”

    I never quite understand where you come up with this. The behavior of Zionism doesn’t look to me like it represents any fear of, or even familiarity (except, perhaps as a pretense) with trauma.
    But it might be too deep for me to grasp, lot’s of things are.

    .

    Au contraire. You’re the deepest Moose I know.

  17. ckg
    December 7, 2014, 10:13 pm

    I see both Max Blumenthal and Diana Buttu have op-ed pieces published by NYT today. The comments should be very interesting.

    • just
      December 7, 2014, 11:00 pm

      Thanks for the heads- up, ckg.

      In other news:

      “Israel’s Zionist left is kidding itself. It can’t lead without the Arabs

      The whittled-down left must wake up and realize: only a true partnership with Israel’s Arabs will allow it to lead.

      Until then, things will continue to worsen.Yet again, like in every election campaign, the ghost known as “the Zionist left” is suddenly revived, and yet again its failed leaders go on about how “See, this time a government under our leadership can be formed.” How? Very simple. Take the number of anticipated seats for the “left-wing bloc,” double it by the euro exchange rate and pour it into a big pot of illusion broth. Add a liter and a half of Haredi gravy, two packets of Kahlon powder, three hairs from Lieberman’s beard and two from his mustache, a heaping teaspoon of leftover Lapid and Mofaz, and you get a strong and stable government under the leadership of Bougie and Mougie from Kfar Shmaryahu.

      But the problem of the supposedly-liberal secular Ashkenazi Jewish left wing, which calls itself the Zionist left (Herzog and Livni are left-wing like Bibi and Bennett are socialists) is not going to be resolved by some magical scheme or other. That is because the only place where such a scheme could make the establishment of a government under their leadership possible is in their wildest dreams. Why? Because this bloc does not have enough voters to form a government, neither in Jerusalem nor in Neverland, and not in this election — except perhaps in Kfar Shmaryahu.

      Ah, wait a minute. How did we forget? You have another card up your sleeve – the Arabs, right? A dozen Arab Knesset members will be an obstructive bloc for us, you say, and “our” 42 seats will keep the other Knesset members from forming a government. Right?

      So first – no, it won’t. Second – and this is the most important thing – until the “Zionist left” realizes that it has to build up the Arabs not just as a force to obstruct the other side, but really join with them as full partners, in a single political bloc – until then, things will stay as they are, and the next government and the ones that come after it will be just like their predecessors and even worse, until one of them realizes its goal and destroys the country.

      So please, let even one of the leaders of the “bloc that pursues equality and peace” get up and announce that he will welcome the Arab parties in the coalition that he forms – just like Bougie, the leader of the “left” in the next government, ha ha, got up and announced that he would not disqualify Bibi from serving in his government.

      Can’t do it, can you? Not capable of it, are you? So what, exactly, is the difference between the “right-wing bloc” and the “left-wing bloc” – that they are benighted racists and you are enlightened racists? A yawning gulf indeed. So you just rush off to the polls now.”

      http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.630494?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

      A fascinating read by Kobi Niv.

    • Walid
      December 7, 2014, 11:57 pm

      “… Diana Buttu have op-ed pieces published by NYT today. ”

      In a nutshell, she’s saying that in the upcoming elections, all of Israel’s political parties are the same shit; Despite promises to the contrary, they’d all continue stealing the land and oppressing the Palestinians.

      • Kay24
        December 8, 2014, 7:54 am

        I just saw a glimpse (so lucky!) of Naftali Bennet on Morning Joe, I wonder what bull crap he was spewing.

        Anyway, Diana Buttu is right, there is no difference who wins what in Israel. They are all the same, following zionist policies, will remain parasitic to the US, pretend they care for peace and continue their violence against their neighbors, saying either “never again” or “woe is us”.

      • ckg
        December 8, 2014, 9:27 am

        Thanks Kay. I’ll have to watch the Morning Joe video podcasts (available at msnbc.com) . I wish Mika would bring her father in for these interviews with Israeli politicians. Real News (video at realnews.com) had a lengthy interview on Friday with Max Blumenthal about the elections.

      • Walid
        December 8, 2014, 9:36 am

        Before Buttu was fired by Abbas at the express request of one of the PA’s British benefactors, she was an official spokesperson for the Palestinians along with partner Michael Tarazi, also fired by Abbas for being too efficient in presenting the Palestinians’ point of view on Western media. The Canadian Diana and the American Michael both extremely eloquent in English were nonstop on American networks explaing what was happening to the Palestinians and scorring points everytime, especially in debates with Zonists. There were so good that they had to be fired, leaving the task of speaking for the Palestinians to a mumbling, babbling and stuttering spokesman.

      • Kay24
        December 8, 2014, 10:25 am

        Ckg, thanks for the link. I wish Zbignew Brezinski, would be a regular too. I simply enjoy listening to him speak, and clearly state exactly what he thinks, and at that age, his ability to think so clearly is amazing. We should be lucky when we are at his age.

        Walid, I agree that the Palestinians should have spokespeople who speaks clearly targeting the American audience, in matters pertaining to the Palestinian position. Unfortunately in the US those with American accents only can get through to the American viewers. There were a few good speakers during the Gaza massacre, but they seem to be missing.

  18. tokyobk
    December 7, 2014, 10:53 pm

    At a glance I don’t think it was pointed out by Phil or in the comments that Mr. Mamdani is from the Ugandan Indian community and with out a doubt this informs his understanding of when and how immigrants become natives and his interest (which I share) in interrogating the very notion of Native. Idid Amin expelled most of the Indian community as middle men interlopers and the early wirings of Gandhi include some less than what is taken as Gandhi-like comments about the position of Indians versus black South Africans with the impression that his gripe was being included among them rather than among the English with whom he was educated.

    With eroding the coloniser’s status goes native status, he argues and seems to mean it. I am not sure most people here are really signed on for that and in fact want the opposite; the reaffirmation of a Palestinian identity that is very much the antithesis of Zionism. Or so it seems to me.

    • mcohen.
      December 8, 2014, 12:30 am

      http://articles.latimes.com/1985-08-09/news/mn-2323_1_black-youths

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durban_Riot

      Tokyobk

      the zulu,s rioted in natal and attacked the Indian community in natal

      gave them panga

      maybe the professor could enlighten us as to what took place

      • mcohen.
        December 8, 2014, 12:34 am

        Also note that the Wikipedia article above was edited 19 hours just to make sure that all bases are covered

    • Mooser
      December 8, 2014, 2:27 pm

      “and his interest (which I share) in interrogating the very notion of Native.

      Oh, you must tell us more about “interrogating the very notion of Native”! Sounds fascinating. How do you get to be an ‘interrogator’ of the “notion of Native”?
      Do you use the ‘good anthropologist-bad anthropologist’ technique? Buddy up to the guy? Or is it the bright lights and the ‘third degree’ for the poor accused Native being interrogated?

      I hope you can tell us more about “interrogating the very notion of Native”. It sounds like the best of all possible things in the bet of all possible worlds!

      • seafoid
        December 8, 2014, 2:37 pm

        Mooser

        I wonder how the interrogating the native concept goes set against irredentist notions such as that tired canard of “historical homeland”. So “native” that they had to invent a language to live there. And all their stories and dances.

      • tokyobk
        December 8, 2014, 7:47 pm

        It means doing exactly what Mamdani does in his writing and in this talk: Asking the extent to which the Native category is true and useful. He finds that it is in fact limiting and untrue to suppose that there is a real, unchanging category of Native except as it is created by and useful to colonisers. There is some power gained from using this oppositional identity but true liberation means ending both sides of the diad.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 11:36 pm

        Thanks, concise and succinct. I didn’t think I could grasp it, but you made it clear.

        “He finds that it is in fact limiting and untrue to suppose that there is a real, unchanging category of Native except as it is created by and useful to colonisers”

        Just so I’m clear on this fascinating subject, does this “interrogation of the native” extend to the “category of Natives as it is created by and useful to the” colonized, or is that beyond the rubric of this branch of study?

      • tokyobk
        December 9, 2014, 12:06 am

        “Just so I’m clear on this fascinating subject, does this “interrogation of the native” extend to the “category of Natives as it is created by and useful to the” colonized, or is that beyond the rubric of this branch of study?”

        Yes, of course.

        Native status is powerful as are all oppositional identities.

        There was no singular category of Native American before Columbus etc… right? There were hundreds of nations that often saw themselves as different from each other as from Portuguese or English.

        Mamdani is interested in the “what next?”

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 12:35 am

        ” There were hundreds of nations that often saw themselves as different from each other as from Portuguese or English.”

        Oh, I get it, the Portuguese and English, and French, and Spanish, were just like some more Indian tribes (or nations) in the mix, with everybody fighting it out on a level playing field. Natch. And of course, the Europeans “go native” over time, and gain their human rights!
        Gosh, tokyobk, when I think about it that way, it’s as if a huge weight of guilt slips from my shoulders. What a liberating concept this “interrogation of the native” is!
        Sure, it’s probably more complicated than that, but it sure puts some things into perspective.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 12, 2014, 1:55 am

        There was no singular category of Native American before Columbus etc… right? There were hundreds of nations that often saw themselves as different from each other as from Portuguese or English.

        but they were all natives of turtle island, unlike Portuguese or English. . that was not in dispute. you’re not arguing varying native american tribes saw as much difference in themselves as they perceived themselves as different than varying europeans, are you? that would be as absurd.

        i do think it is different today. i think often people align, globally, more along ideological lines. mentally at least i think i am more tribally aligned thru commonalities of ethical considerations that transcends geographical location and ethnic considerations. when i was in lebanon this summer during the nearby slaughter i felt much more at home that i would have felt in my own living room. everyone in my surroundings had their heart where mine was. it’s a global feeling that’s spreading.i can’t explain it. i don’t fully understand it. it started for me during the iraq war when i would look at the moon and know they were looking at the same moon. knowing they were being massacred and my heart and prayers were there. it’s the space where your heart lies regardless of your physical body.

      • oldgeezer
        December 12, 2014, 2:17 am

        @annie
        ” i think i am more tribally aligned thru commonalities of ethical considerations that transcends geographical location and ethnic considerations. ?

        Beautifully said. I can’t add a thing.

    • Mooser
      December 9, 2014, 12:28 am

      ” and in fact want the opposite; the reaffirmation of a Palestinian identity that is very much the antithesis of Zionism.”

      Tokyobk, I’m sure everybody would be very happy if the “reaffirmation of a Palestinian identity that is very much the antithesis of Zionism” came to pass. I’m sure almost everybody would be very unhappy if the Palestinian State operated outside their own territory from the moment of its birth as a State, and colonized and/or brutally occupied territory not its own, without annexing it,( leaving Israelis vulnerable) and attacked the States around them, and even the ships of their allies. Oh, did I mention ethnic cleansing and ethno-religious supremacy? And maintaining apartheid and segregation?
      Yes, tokyobk, your charge hits home. It’s most probably true that everybody expects the Palestinians, if given the chance, to be the antithesis of Zionism. In fact I very much doubt the Palestinians will suddenly decide someplace on the other side of the world is their “homeland” and mount a campaign to colonize and conquer it. They will probably stay where they are, give people rights, try to operate democratically, and in general be the “antithesis” of Zionism.

      Shall we note more of the characteristics and actions of Zionism, and try and determine what their “antithesis” might be?

      Seems to me, what you’re afraid of is that a Palestinian State or one-state might be the least bit like ZIonism, not its “antithesis”.

      • gamal
        December 11, 2014, 8:07 pm

        i mean, ‘oppositional identities’ is a classic, i tremble before their power, has there ever been such an utter d**k head as TBK, no, i assert, there has not, if you are in any way perplexed. i may have drunk too much, but “antithesis”, big words small ‘ideas’, what a “pr**k”.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 12, 2014, 1:23 am

        i may have drunk too much

        no worries, even tipsy you have more bite, smarts, common sense and charisma than those others . and i’ll always be there to clean up your text. ;)

    • gamal
      December 10, 2014, 10:41 am

      “I don’t think it was pointed out by Phil or in the comments that Mr. Mamdani is from the Ugandan Indian community and with out a doubt this informs his understanding of when and how immigrants become natives and his interest (which I share) in interrogating the very notion of Native.” Yes everyone sucks, especially Mamdani and Gandhi

      “his understanding of when and how immigrants become natives….(which i share)”

      Have you read Define and Rule, or you just guessing, to assert that it has anything whatsoever to do with “how immigrants” ie colonizers, a very special category of “immigrant” become “native” shows your utter illiteracy forgive my not getting into this farago let us consult a review by someone who has read Mamdani and judge for yourselves link below.

      “Gandhi include some less than what is taken as Gandhi-like comments about the position of Indians versus black South Africans with the impression that his gripe was being included among them rather than among the English with whom he was educated” Only some one who has never read Gandhi could possibly imagine any of that crap, but yes Gandhi is unlike “Gandhi” anyway please read link and demonstrate where any thing is about “immigrants”, not colonizers of course, becoming “natives” your whole post is a non-sequitur, do you know who the late Yusuf Bala Usman was? was he Fulani or Hausa, his seminal work if memory serves was “The Misrepresentation of Nigeria” for f*ks sake man, i suppose its an advance on Jews are a natural part of the middle east but shit you are an idiot if you think no one reading here is familiar with this debate. so over to Chloe Ahmann, you have to admit pretty damn good for a girl.. i will leave others to judge.. but to put it simply no one is a “native”..of course Mooser sees through you, you are transparent….

      http://www.academia.edu/4189451/Book_Review_Mahmood_Mamdani_Define_and_Rule_Native_as_Political_Identity

      • Mooser
        December 12, 2014, 1:29 pm

        Thanks for the link to the review, gamal.

  19. mcohen.
    December 8, 2014, 12:21 am

    a lot of south African Jews are moving to Israel. ….There is a well established community there….Most countries are difficult to get into but for Jews Israel is a easy option

    what’s more french Jews are arriving there by the hundreds every month

    growing anti semitism in Europe and countries like south Africa are driving record numbers to immigrate

    all good

    • Annie Robbins
      December 8, 2014, 3:14 am

      re south africa, here’s a recent article http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.630367

      but most of them moved (northern suburbs) already. nothing about recent immigration.

    • oldgeezer
      December 9, 2014, 12:50 am

      @mcohen

      “all good”

      Really? All good? Growing antisemitism is good? No worries about the causes? Nor consequences for those that remain?

      You’ve summed up zionist values with two words. In my world that is just sad.

      • mcohen.
        December 9, 2014, 3:50 am

        old geezer……..you misunderstood

        all good to increased immigration to israel

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        December 9, 2014, 3:10 pm

        Well spotted!

        It’s amazing how he has said straight out that anti-semitism is a GOOD thing – provided that it encourages more Jews to help correct the ‘demographic problem’ that’s keeping Israelis awake at night with angst over the birth of yet more Palestinian babies. Zionism in a nutshell indeed. Anti-semitism isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, it’s merely a tool to help Zionism.

        All that said, I’d be really interested in evidence for the claim that ” french Jews are arriving there by the hundreds every month.” Not that it really matters – the entire Jewish population of France could up sticks for Israel, but it still ain’t gonna save Zionism.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 9, 2014, 11:53 pm

        all good to increased immigration to israel

        i don’t think you’re the first one to make that point. in fact zionist underground in baghdad were known to create false flags to create the semblance of it to “encourage” jews to get the hell out of dodge and immigrate to israel. i’m sure it’s been done many times in the past and will continue in the future, all good to increased immigration to israel.

        I might have linked it before but you scrubbed it.

        ha! you mean you might have linked it and i might have scrubbed it? if a comment that included this got trashed it wouldn’t have been because of that embed. but i doubt you linked to that (unless it was over a year ago or something) because i would have opened it and seen it. i don’t recall ever seeing it.

        btw, to you have any sources regarding your claim “a lot of south African Jews are moving to Israel”. i did a quick search and couldn’t find anything recent and i am interested in reading about it. all of the articles i intercepted said many were moving north of the city into gated communities.

      • Walid
        December 10, 2014, 3:09 am

        What increased immigration? Israel has an annual migration deficit of 7,000 people with the largest incoming group from France (thanks to a lot of spooking antisemitic activity fanned by the Criff) of 2000 people a year, which is nothing to brag about.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2014, 12:12 pm

        “in fact zionist underground in baghdad were known to create false flags to create the semblance of it to “encourage” jews to get the hell out of dodge and immigrate to israel”

        Gosh, tribal unity is such a great thing! Is there anything it can’t do?

  20. OyVey00
    December 8, 2014, 9:56 am

    As I mentioned before, South Africa is exactly the comparison you DON’T want to bring up when trying to convince Jews that they will be safe in a future Israel/Palestine where Palestinians might have the power. See http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html for information on the repressions and violence against whites in contemporary South Africa.

    In fact, I don’t know if Jews will actually be safe in such a scenario in the first place. The Palestinians have all reasons to hate them and you can’t blame them for that. Putting the country under UN administration might be the best to prevent excesses like in SA, but then again, the UN is so incompetent and corrupt nowadays, I’m not sure if that would work either.

    All in all, I don’t believe the Jews have a realistic future in the Middle East. Maybe they should buy some uninhabited land in Australia or Canada or something and start off their Jewish state over there.

    • Mooser
      December 8, 2014, 2:09 pm

      “See link to genocidewatch.org for information on the repressions and violence against whites in contemporary South Africa.”

      OyVey00. you are worrying your head over nothing.
      You are missing an important fact.
      If any of that anti-white repression and violence is directed towards us, a little explaining about who we are should suffice, you know; slaves in the land of Egypt, expelled by Rome, centuries of repression and violence in Europe, culminating in the Holocaust, and then stress our ethnic extraction, and our affinity with the oppressed and violated of the entire world. Poof problem solved, they say ‘Oh, I see, you’re not white you’re Jewish! Put it here, bro, gimme five!”, and you do the “terrorist fist bump” and walk off arm-in-arm.
      Is that so hard to do?

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 2:11 pm

        You know, OyVey00, if you do it right, you can turn the entire thing around, and they end up feeling sorry for us.

    • Mooser
      December 8, 2014, 2:17 pm

      “Putting the country under UN administration might be the best to prevent excesses”

      Yup, disarming Israel, and Israeli citizens, is going to be a nasty job. I’m glad you see the need for it.

    • eljay
      December 8, 2014, 2:28 pm

      >> All in all, I don’t believe the Jews have a realistic future in the Middle East.

      I don’t know about Jews, but I don’t see a realistic future in the Middle East for Zio-supremacists.

      >> Maybe they should buy some uninhabited land in Australia or Canada or something and start off their Jewish state over there.

      A supremacist “Jewish State” in Australia or Canada is no better than a supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine.

      • OyVey00
        December 8, 2014, 5:50 pm

        A supremacist “Jewish State” in Australia or Canada is no better than a supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine.

        As long as they stay in their country and don’t kill or oppress other peoples, they can be supremacist for all I care.

      • yonah fredman
        December 8, 2014, 8:17 pm

        oy vey- a comment on your name. until recently i thought that oy vey was merely a Germanic phrase given a yiddish twist, but in fact- oy is a biblical Hebrew word meaning woe and vey is a Germanic word meaning woe, so oy vey literally means woe woe.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 12:43 am

        “but in fact- oy is a biblical Hebrew word meaning woe and vey is a Germanic word meaning woe, so oy vey literally means woe woe.”

        Yonah, are you getting “lascivious” or “merely” bloodthirsty?

      • oldgeezer
        December 9, 2014, 12:46 am

        Whoa.

      • RoHa
        December 9, 2014, 1:30 am

        And to further the development of Yatin, we can add “vae”‘ to give “oy vey vae”.

      • just
        December 9, 2014, 9:24 am

        woe woe woe.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 11:39 am

        “And to further the development of Yatin, we can add “vae”‘ to give “oy vey vae”.

        Oh yes! The possibilities of “Yatin” are endless, and I haven’t even started on them!

        And, ‘Pig Yatin’ now occurs to me.

      • RoHa
        December 10, 2014, 2:45 am

        @ just

        …your boat?

      • ziusudra
        December 10, 2014, 5:28 am

        Greetings jonah fredman,
        Oy, vey , Yid & Ach weh , Ger.
        Weh = pain.
        Ach, Weh ist mir! = Oh, pain is mine.
        Those who spoke & speak Yid. are correct in any usage they decide on.
        Yiddisch was/is communication & cannot be critized. It got Euro Jewry
        through the ages. It was their socioelect, ethnoelect & regioelect for the Ghetto existence that they shared.
        ziusudra
        PS Yid is nothing else than Jew, Giu & Jud in dialect & not at all derogatory.
        If that German map maker didn’t make a mistake in spelling, I’d be an AmeriGana today, but it would still be better than a Vespuciana!

  21. Mooser
    December 8, 2014, 2:15 pm

    “All in all, I don’t believe the Jews have a realistic future in the Middle East.”

    And that’s really too bad, because if I am not mistaken, until Zionism came along, they did.

  22. seafoid
    December 8, 2014, 3:46 pm

    The Stone Roses have a great song for all the bots who mouth meaningless hasbara across the US media

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRwR7avc5Oc

    Don’t waste your words I don’t need anything from you,
    I don’t care where you’ve been or what you plan to do.

    Turn, turn, I wish you’d learn
    There’s a time and place for everything
    I’ve got to get it through.
    Cut loose ’cause you’re no use
    I couldn’t stand another
    Second in your company.

    Don’t waste your words I don’t need anything from you,
    I don’t care where you’ve been or what you plan to do.

    Stone me why can’t you see
    You’re a no one nowhere washed up baby
    Who’d look better with a conscience

  23. Keith
    December 8, 2014, 5:48 pm

    In view of all that has transpired before, during and after the creation of the Jewish State, all of the violence and terror and mass murder of the Palestinians by Israeli Jews, I am distressed that there should be so much emphasis on reassuring Israeli Jews about their safety. It is truly a triumph of Zionist propaganda that we should be forever inverting cause and effect to continually reassure the aggressor that they have nothing to fear. How long will Gentiles feel obligated to pander to the supposedly oh-so-fragile Jewish psyche? Or is it a highly successful rationalization made popular primarily after the six day war and Jewish ascendancy into the corridors of power? Israel will change if and when the empire, including Jewish imperial elites, need it to change. The psychology of the average Israeli Jew has as much impact on Israeli policy as the psychology of the average American has on imperial policy.

    • tokyobk
      December 8, 2014, 7:59 pm

      No its a triumph of human wisdom and your Jewish/goy perpetual war agenda is a burden to the future of one state Israel/Palestinians of all backgrounds. Your meddling of Israeli/Zionist/Jewish is part of the problem (Zionists do it too).

      Never has a simple reversal of power gone well.

      Only when there is a synthesis not a simple reversal will there be Peace.

      Like it or not the individual rights of all people living between the river and sea matter, not for the sake of Jewish egos but for the sake of human rights.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 11:49 pm

        “Like it or not the individual rights of all people living between the river and sea matter, not for the sake of Jewish egos but for the sake of human rights.”

        Tokyobk, I wonder about you sometimes, pal. What are you worried about? Don’t you think Israel has a plan, a perfectly good plan, to see that the settlers come to no harm? I ask you, would Israel have put them out there, on territory Israel does not posses, and leave the settlers out as, well, bait for terrirists? Do you think Israel would ever, if there was some kind of authentic military or financial crisis, leave the settlers undefended?

        All this talk about human rights makes me think you have very little faith in the ability, or the desire, of Israel to do anything for them, if things go wrong (and they will).

        Do you really think Israel would leave the settlers, the colonists out there in occupied territory and dare the world to watch them get murdered if Israel doesn’t get what it wants?

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 11:51 pm

        “No its a triumph of human wisdom and your Jewish/goy perpetual war agenda is a burden to the future of one state Israel/Palestinians of all backgrounds. Your meddling of Israeli/Zionist/Jewish is part of the problem (Zionists do it too).”

        Hmmmm, that must be one of those “interrogations of the native” tokyobk was talking about earlier. Glad to see the demonstration, it’s very instructive..

      • Keith
        December 9, 2014, 1:28 am

        TOKYOBK- “…your Jewish/goy perpetual war agenda….”

        My perpetual Jewish/goy perpetual war agenda? MY PERPETUAL JEWISH/GOY PERPETUAL WAR AGENDA?!? Good Lord Ben, have you no idea what you are saying? I’m the one who claims never ending irrational Gentile anti-Semitism? Have you been sufficiently marinated in Zionist propaganda that you are incapable of perceiving reality for what it is? Do you seriously believe that the cult of the Holocaust and eternal anti-Semitism is my doing? You think that Gentiles who take offense at being always accused of Jew hatred if they criticize Israel or Jewish anti-Gentile chauvinism is a sign of anti-Semitism? Are you even capable of seeing beyond yourself or beyond the tribe? I doubt it. What good are advanced degrees if you are incapable of even a smidgen of introspection?

        Tokyobk: “Like it or not the individual rights of all people living between the river and sea matter, not for the sake of Jewish egos but for the sake of human rights.”

        I agree completely. When have I ever said otherwise? So why are you implying something which isn’t true? Good Lord Ben, get a grip! You are a smart guy, but Zionist ideology has messed you up. You need to undergo Ziocaine detoxification. Perhaps Mooser can be your sponsor.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 11:47 am

        “You are a smart guy, but Zionist ideology has messed you up”

        Keith, you better watch out, or you is gonna have your “Native category” good and goddam well “interrogated”! And when that “interrogation” is done, and we prove that you, in fact came from somewhere else and was not created on this spot well, that proves the “colonizers” has all the same “human rights” as you do. No more, since he isn’t prevaricating about where he came from! And of course, everybody knows that human rights are property rights! Don’t have to interrogate no Native categories to know that!!

        I got to say “Interrogating the Native category” is the fenciest way of saying ‘the Palestinians don’t exist’ I ever heard!

      • Keith
        December 9, 2014, 3:29 pm

        MOOSER- “I got to say “Interrogating the Native category” is the fenciest way of saying ‘the Palestinians don’t exist’ I ever heard!”

        I doubt that Tokyobk meant it that way, however, I also doubt that he even considered that his words could be so construed. Perhaps if he adopted a more straightforward manner of expression in lieu of his reliance on quasi academic jargon there would be less misunderstanding.

        My comment to Ben in response to his comment on my initial comment was actually a good faith attempt at dialog. He doesn’t appear to me to be a die hard hasbarat, rather, he seems like someone suffering from life long indoctrination. His comment to me doesn’t make sense in view of what I actually said. He appears to have responded to various attitudes which he has projected onto me without even realizing it. The gist of my comment was rather simple. Throwing the onus onto the victim to reassure the victimizer is grotesque. Besides, Israeli policy is decided by the Zionist elites in Israel and the US, the fears of the average Israeli Jew hardly the determining factor and subject to manipulation in any event. The exception would be the Fundamentalist Jews who see the unredemption of any of the sacred soil as an offense to God, issues of security irrelevant. I hope my comment to Tokyobk didn’t come across as excessively harsh. He tends to vex me with his Judeocentric myopia.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2014, 12:26 pm

        “Perhaps if he adopted a more straightforward manner of expression in lieu of his reliance on quasi academic jargon there would be less misunderstanding. “

        How is there any misunderstanding? I’m quite certain he knows exactly what he means, and means to say. I hope I haven’t said anything to the contrary, and if I have, I apologize.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2014, 12:29 pm

        “Throwing the onus onto the victim to reassure the victimizer is grotesque.”

        See? Not a lot of misunderstanding! He’s being reasonably clear.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2014, 12:33 pm

        I’m such a dope! What on earth is my problem? It took me till this morning to think: “Say? Why don’t I Google the phrase, (and in a couple different ways to make sure) and see what it’s all about?”
        So I did!

      • Mooser
        December 12, 2014, 12:23 pm

        “interrogating the native speaker fallacy” Is that, possibly, what we are dealing with?

  24. Faisal
    December 8, 2014, 7:16 pm

    Throughout its pitiful existence; the Jewish State of Israel in the Levant (JSIL) invaded, occupied or bombarded Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Tunisia and Lebanon; not to mention its dirty hands all over the Sudanese Civil War, South Yemen and the Dhofar rebellion (Israel killed about 20,000 people in its 1982 invasion of Lebanon alone).

    Israel frequently makes sectarian and racist nuclear threats against Muslims and Arabs (a prospect commonly sympathised with in the West and warmly received and even cheered by the grandly vapid and thoughtless Western – especially American – liberals.

    Israel survived all this long because it succeeded in surrounding itself with a band of friendly fascists (Sadat-Mubarak-Morsi-Sisi regimes, the al-Assad family, the Hashemite monarchists, the pitiful, masochistic, racist and sectarian “Lebanon”, the Saudi oil barrels and later joined by the Qatari gas tanks; spoiled not just the Palestinian revolution; but polluted the entire Arab politics and culture with it.

    Zionists pioneered terrorism; regionally and globally; cafe bombs (March 1937 in Jaffa), bus bombs (August 1937), market bombs (July 1938, Haifa), hotel bombs (July 1946, Jerusalem), ambulance bombs (October 1946, Petah Tekva), embassy bombing (October 1947, Rome) and letter bombs to British targets in 1947.

    In conclusion; the goal – regardless of what anybody thinks – is the liberation of beloved Palestine; as-Sahyonyya doesn’t get to keep even one m² of it.

    In my Palestine Mt. Herzl would be Mt. Habash, Zion Sqaure will be Liberation Sqaure, David Ben-Gurion Airport will be Dalal al-Maghrabi Airport and memorials will commemorate both the Nakba and the Holocaust (for those who wish to do so)

    The look on barefoot kids in Palestinian refugee camps motivate me; rocks in their little hands are worth more than all the prizes awarded to Zionist celebrities.

    Israel, you’ll unravel; and meet your just fate. I’m counting the seconds. No peace,never.

    • mcohen.
      December 9, 2014, 4:02 am

      faisal says

      to commerate the nabka and holocaust”

      why the holocaust ……

      a memorial for all the jews killed by arabs would be acceptable starting with the hebron massacre 1929

      or the safed massacre 1834

      faisal how about a memorial for all the civilians killed in the suicide bombings

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 6:34 pm

        “why the holocaust ……a memorial for all the jews killed by arabs would be acceptable starting with the hebron massacre 1929”

        Oh, this is interesting! It’s more important to memorialize Jews who died in actualizing the Zionist campaign of colonization in Palestine, more important than memorializing the Jews who died in the Holocaust? Now, that’s something new.

    • jon s
      December 9, 2014, 4:26 pm

      Faisal’s comment – “no peace, never” – is a good reminder of the kind of implacable murderous hatred that those who seek peace are up against.

      • seafoid
        December 9, 2014, 4:32 pm

        “implacable murderous hatred”

        FFS jon

        the Arab League deal has been on the table since 2003. You sit in your comfortable house down the road from Gaza and your army has attacked the strip 4 times since 2003.

        Israeli Jews are not interested in peace. Your people are brainwashed to think the status quo is permanent.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 6:21 pm

        “Faisal’s comment – “no peace, never” – is a good reminder of the kind of implacable murderous hatred that those who seek peace are up against.”

        Gosh, no wonder you don’t like Bennett. You are aghast at the provocative and incendiary things Bennett says. But you always choose forbearance, “JonS” and always choose to ‘dial it down’, instead of ‘ratcheting up’ the rhetoric.

        Naturally, nothing Israel ever does indicates, in actions, that there’s any “implacable murderous hatred” in their hearts.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 6:31 pm

        “Faisal’s comment – “no peace, never” – is a good reminder of the kind of implacable murderous hatred that those who seek peace are up against.”

        The kind that causes a person to put a strong statement at the end of a comment? Oh my God, that’s the scariest kind!

        However, if the kind of murderous, implacable hatred which is known good and goddam well to be generated by actions like those of the Zionists, and the Governments of Israel, (to wit: disposession, murder, illegal exploitation of occupied territory, collective punishment, apartheid, ) is something you need to worry about, “JonS”, why do Zionists work so hard to generate more of it?

  25. kalithea
    December 9, 2014, 12:37 am

    I wish that racism in America could be somehow threaded into this discussion. Part of the reason that Americans still support and are willing to fund the racist Apartheid State of Israel is because racism is pervasive in America as well. As is the case in the U.S., Israel also has two justice systems: justice for Jews and NO JUSTICE for Palestinians. In the U.S. there is justice for whites and a different justice for blacks and the poor. How can a country like the U.S. that has a flawed, racist justice system ever call itself the honest, impartial broker for the sham peace process and for ending the rampant injustice and oppression inflicted on Palestinians by Zionists?

    So what and who is holding back justice for the Palestinians?

    The blame is widespread but the buck stops with Obama. Obama was a hypocrite from day one. He gave that soaring, pretentious speech on racism to cover his ass when the whole Wright scandal broke, but now protests over racism are spreading through American cities and isn’t it ironic that there happens to be a black man in the White House at this critical moment? If you ask me, Obama has a very unique opportunity here to step up and write an important chapter in history and you could say that he’s being called and challenged by destiny to step up, but instead I sense an almost deaf-ear hesitation when this moment is ripe to forge ahead and stomp out racism once and for all.

    Here’s my conclusion: Obama threw his former friend Rev. Wright under the bus; when Rev. Wright was RIGHT about lingering racism in America and right about the blowback America has been generating abroad and domestically. Now, Obama is throwing his fellow black Americans under the bus and it’s Obama’s chickens that are starting to come home to roost. Obama has come full circle with his lack of integrity and now he is being forced to face it head on. In a way, Reverend Wright is being vindicated.

    God Bless America??? No-no no!

    When it came to treating her citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains, the government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton fields, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing “God Bless America”. No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that’s in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent.

    Words to remember today! How can a country that treats its own citizens this way demonstrate righteous, impartial leadership when it comes to recognizing Israeli apartheid, the rights of Palestinians and putting an end to such glaring, prolonged injustice?

  26. kalithea
    December 9, 2014, 12:40 am

    One more note: Time for Obama to practice some audacity instead of preaching it!

    • just
      December 9, 2014, 9:19 am

      Ain’t that the truth, kalithea. He is capable; I know he is.

  27. Sibiriak
    December 9, 2014, 6:09 am

    The Zionist message to the Jewish population of Israel is this, Zionism is your only guarantee against another holocaust.
    ——–

    For Israeli Jews, the more realistic Zionist message is probably just as compelling: that life in a Jewish-majority state would be greatly preferable to life in an Arab-majority one.

    And its not only a negative message; it has a positive side: “Jewish self-determination.”

    • kalithea
      December 9, 2014, 7:37 pm

      Self-determination based on theft, ethnic cleansing, racism and spiritual death.

  28. NormanF
    December 9, 2014, 3:20 pm

    No Jew in Israel is ever going to agree to live as a minority in an Arab country.

    Israeli Jews only have to look around them to see Arabs cannot live in peace with each other. The Arab hate of fellow Arabs is only exceeded by the Arab hate for the Jews.

    The massacre at Har Nof last month of four pious rabbis by Arab terrorists has only strengthened Jews in their conviction Zionism remains morally just and a Jewish State is their only guarantee of survival.

    Anti-Zionists will never understand the depth of Jewish attachment to Israel and the pride Jews take in their country. There are various debates about Israel’s future but the central concept of Israel as the Jewish homeland, a Jewish country – defines the present and the future of Israel.

    In a word, Jews will only be safe with Zionism and a strong Jewish State. And there is nothing anti-Zionists can offer them that is a realistic alternative to the sense of vulnerability and existential dread Jews feel. Jewish nationalism is as legitimate as every other nationalism under the sun.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      December 10, 2014, 5:32 am

      ”Israeli Jews only have to look around them to see Arabs cannot live in peace with each other. The Arab hate of fellow Arabs is only exceeded by the Arab hate for the Jews.”

      Let’s imagine, for the sake of argument, that the above is true.

      Surely it proves that a – The establishment of a Jewish state in the midst of the Arab world was a monumentally stupid idea, one of the most catastrophically idiotic actions of the last century.

      And b – that Israel, surrounded by all that implacable murderous hate, is surely doomed.

    • Mooser
      December 10, 2014, 12:17 pm

      “No Jew in Israel is ever going to agree to live as a minority in an Arab country.”

      That’s funny, they used to, and did quite well at it. But, at any rate NormanF, it is good to have somebody here who can speak for every “Jew in Israel.” It’ll make the discussion go faster. If you have to go to a cabinet meeting, or meet with Obama, we’ll wait til you get back.

    • Mooser
      December 10, 2014, 12:21 pm

      “The massacre at Har Nof last month of four pious rabbis”

      Pious? I’ve heard they machine-laundered instead of dry-cleaning certain garments, and there was no mink oil or silicone on the straps. Dry and cracked. Pious?
      And I don’t think they drove hybrids, either. Pious? You decide.

      • mcohen.
        December 11, 2014, 7:24 am

        mooser

        what are you saying that they were not pious…….that they were……..what?

        one down 3 to go,please dont say it is so joe di maggio

      • Mooser
        December 12, 2014, 12:01 pm

        “mcohen” I’m not a judge of piousness. All I can judge from is their actions. And if you would like to think what they did is “pious”, I can’t stop you.
        But I know what I think of a guy who just throws it in the Maytag, with powdered detergent!

      • Mooser
        December 12, 2014, 12:11 pm

        But of course, we can’t assume the Rabbis were pious frauds, no, they may very well have been so frum they hardly lived in this world. In that case, what does that say about Israeli intelligence and security? Wasn’t Glick shot near there a few weeks before? They just let these poor pious Rabbis walk into a trap? Didn’t try to prevent them from going, give them a warning?

    • Mooser
      December 12, 2014, 1:40 pm

      “Israeli Jews only have to look around them to see Arabs cannot live in peace with each other.”

      So I guess we needn’t put any credence in that ol’ 22-Muslim-countries-against-one -poor-little-Jewish-Israel complaint, then? Thanks! One less thing to worry about.

  29. NickJOCW
    December 10, 2014, 12:25 pm

    Comparing Israel and South Africa overlooks one fundamental difference. South Africa was a clearly defined geographical area and all the inhabitants, whatever their colour, were South Africans. Though mirrored elsewhere their apartheid was an entirely local struggle. Israel on the other hand is acting outside its borders and outside international law. BDS seeks for Israel to vacate Palestine. The safety or otherwise of Jews is an entirely separate issue. The US has sworn to protect Israel’s security and I can imagine no scenario where that promise would not be kept. The simple fact is that Israel has no intention of vacating Palestine and that is why we need BDS. Once its purpose is achieved, all sorts of political agreements are possible and perhaps future generations will have an open border with free passage for everyone and everything. But first things first. Israel non legibus solutus est.*

    *Israel is not above the law.

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