Fact Check: MSNBC’s Palestinian loss of land map

US Politics

Last week, MSNBC aired a map (above) showing the loss of Palestinian land to Zionist settlers and then to Israel from 1946 to the present. Following criticism from Israelis and their supporters, MSNBC apologized and stated that the map was incorrect. But was it? The following is a fact check of MSNBC’s map and the criticisms of it.

Does the map accurately show the loss of Palestinian land since 1946?

Yes. The map accurately depicts the land that has been forcibly taken from Palestinians since 1946, two years before Israel was established and the accompanying expulsion of between 750,000 and a million Palestinians to make way for a Jewish state.

During and immediately following the state’s creation in 1948, Israel expropriated approximately 4,244,776 acres of Palestinian land. In the process, more than 400 Palestinian cities and towns were systematically destroyed by Israeli forces or repopulated with Jews. Most Palestinian population centers, including homes, businesses, houses of worship, and vibrant urban centers, were demolished to prevent the return of their owners, now refugees outside of Israel’s pre-1967 borders or internally displaced within them. (See here for interactive map of Palestinian population centers destroyed during Israel’s creation.)

Israel’s systematic dispossession of Palestinians is ongoing today, both in the occupied territories and inside Israel’s internationally recognized pre-1967 borders, where Palestinian citizens of the state and those living under occupation continue to be pushed out of their homes and off their lands – including entire towns – to make way for Jewish citizens and settlers. Today, there are approximately 650,000 Jewish settlers living illegally on occupied Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Israel’s settlement enterprise covers approximately 42% of the West Bank.

Did the map specify that Palestine was an independent state prior to 1948?

No. Critics have focused on the fact that Palestine was not a sovereign and independent state prior to 1948, however the map did not claim that it was. The map purported to show “Palestinian Loss of Land 1946-present,” and it did precisely that, accurately. While it was not a recognized independent state under British rule in 1946, Palestine as a political entity existed prior to the formation of the state of Israel in 1948, going back to ancient times when it was a province of the Roman empire until more recently when it was British Mandatory Palestine, immediately preceding Israel’s creation.​​

Were there real factual errors in the map?

Yes. There were two factual errors in the map:

  • ​It showed the Syrian Golan Heights, which have been under Israeli military occupation since the 1967 War, as part of Israel, although the international community, including the United States, does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the area.
  • The map also shows “Israel” existing in 1946. While British Mandatory Palestine did exist in 1946, there was no political entity called “Israel” until 1948.

89 Responses

  1. ahadhaadam
    October 22, 2015, 10:48 am

    Yes, the map does not distinguish between private ownership and confiscated “state land” and sovereign borders, suggested borders and unrecognized borders but the fact that you cannot have an accurate map is because Israel made and still makes a conscious decision to blur these concepts and refuses to even declare its borders. This is then by default the best map that you can come up with under the circumstances to depict the ongoing process of colonization of Palestine and dispossession of Palestinians.

    Until someone can come up with a more accurate map which will take into account all these issues (which will inevitably show the same picture of ongoing dispossession), this is the map of choice.

    • talknic
      October 22, 2015, 11:26 pm

      @ ahadhaadam “… the map does not distinguish between private ownership …”

      That’s real estate. E.g., Real estate is owned by Japanese and Chinese companies, individuals and even Japanese and Chinese Govt institutions in Australia. They have absolutely no territorial rights what so ever.

      “… the fact that you cannot have an accurate map is because Israel made and still makes a conscious decision to blur these concepts and refuses to even declare its borders”

      Not so. Israel proclaimed its borders May 15th 1948 effective as of 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) in its official plea for recognition link to trumanlibrary.org They are the only borders recognized by the International Comity of Nations as Israeli.

      Here is an accurate map down to a few hundred yards link to wp.me

      • ahadhaadam
        October 23, 2015, 7:05 pm

        Even your map doesn’t show the extent of land confiscation within the 1947 partition plan, i.e. where the UN recognizes Israel’s borders. Just showing proposed borders, armistice borders and illegally annexed borders, does not show the extent of land confiscation all over mandate Palestine and their transfer to Jewish organizations for the sole benefit of Jews. In that sense, even the CNBC map gives a better account of the dispossession of Palestinians.

      • talknic
        October 23, 2015, 8:12 pm

        @ ahadhaadam

        ” your map doesn’t show the extent of land confiscation within the 1947 partition plan”

        There was no confiscation ‘within’ the 1947 partition plan. Within the partition plan land ownership in either proposed state was to have remained intact and all citizens treated equally, no dispossession.

        There was to be no ‘loss’ of land or dispossession of Palestinians who chose to become Israeli citizens.

        Likewise there was to be no loss of land or dispossession for Jews who decided to become citizens of the proposed Arab state in what remained of Palestine

        The argument now it exists, is with the State of Israel. It was and still is the failure of the State of Israel to stick to the plan the Jewish Agency accepted that has resulted in confiscation and dispossession of private land by Israel in Israeli territory and the confiscation and dispossession by the State of Israel of non-Israeli territories leading to the present day fiasco.

        My map is to show what Israel the state has illegally acquired since becoming a state. Overlayed on Google Earth one can use it as a reference to see what was/is and what was/isn’t Israeli territory

        Their map shows pre Israeli statehood – to the present and deceptively tells the viewer the yellow section is all Israeli. It ain’t!

      • ahadhaadam
        October 23, 2015, 9:33 pm

        So again, your map just shows borders. It doesn’t show land confiscations and the essence of the Zionist-Palestinian conflict is land confiscation and dispossession, not borders. Your map, to the untrained eye, makes it look like it’s a border dispute which can be easily dismissed as common throughout the world, whereas the essence of the conflict is colonial dispossession, in which borders play very little role, if any, which is why Israel has no borders, not does it care to declare what borders it demands for itself.

      • talknic
        October 23, 2015, 10:54 pm

        @ ahadhaadam “So again, your map just shows borders”

        That’s the crucial starting point for any debate about the existing State of Israel. It’s self proclaimed borders.

        For example, did five Arab states invade Israel in 1948? Fact is, they attacked Israeli forces who were in non-Israeli territories.

        All of Israel’s wars have been fought in territories the Israeli Government itself on 22nd May 1948 were “outside the State of Israel”

        “It doesn’t show land confiscations”

        Anywhere the map’s red zone AND anywhere in its green zone is where the State of Israel has illegally acquired or claimed territory. Within Israel’s sovereign extent however, it can make whatever draconian laws it wishes. Unfortunately it is an apartheid state.

        “and the essence of the Zionist-Palestinian conflict is land confiscation and dispossession, not borders”

        Indeed the essence is a vast Zionist pyramid scheme that depends on colonizing more and more territory. The often and ridiculously held up “no borders are mentioned in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel” only meant they weren’t mentioned in that document. The Israeli Government confirmed its borders in its plea for recognition.

        “Your map, to the untrained eye, makes it look like it’s a border dispute”

        Legally, it is a border dispute!

        “whereas the essence of the conflict is colonial dispossession, in which borders play very little role, if any, which is why Israel has no borders, not does it care to declare what borders it demands for itself”

        Don’t play into the Zionist hand. Israel DID proclaim its borders and was recognized by them. Showing their deceit BY THEIR OWN WORDS is a most effective weapon

        Israel’s self proclaimed borders are what UN/UNSC/UNGA/UNHRC resolutions against Israel are based on, what Israel has done and is doing in territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”.

        There are no UN/UNSC/UNGA/UNHRC resolutions against Israel for what it does within its recognized sovereign extent

      • talknic
        October 23, 2015, 11:33 pm

        @ vahadhaadam

        :-) Discussions here are a good testing ground for honing valid arguments against Zionist propaganda voiced in support of the State of Israel‘s ongoing atrocities.

        Cheers

    • JWalters
      October 23, 2015, 7:15 pm

      It should be a simple matter for a news organization with MSNBC’s resources to produce a map of the dispossession that is correctly labeled, and then show that. I applaud their attempt to bring this information to Americans after the long (still ongoing) blackout.

    • Doubtom
      October 24, 2015, 12:50 am

      But, but, you have to understand that god gave them all that land (it’s in the “book’) (which they wrote) and they haven’t been able to contact him since, or they’d have a lot more. So they might end up “writing” another book to cover the rest of the Middle East. (If they can locate god).

  2. amigo
    October 22, 2015, 10:51 am

    Obvious question is , “Where is the Israeli,s map”.If this one is wrong, show us the right one or stfu.

    • thedirtydemocrat
      October 23, 2015, 1:08 pm

      Amigo, I am with you, but it is like asking he GOP in America to come up with a health care plan before getting rid of the ACA.

      Israel has no marked borders because, as they say, there are contested areas. Yeah, like stealing more of the Golan Heights from Syria in the middle of a crippling war, trying to take over edges of Lebanon unsuccessfully, the Al Aqsa compound from Jordan and the rest of the Occupied Territories of Palestine.

      I did forget the stupid idea of trading Palestinian farms and homes for the Sinai Desert. Ain’t that generous of them Zionazis?

    • Doubtom
      October 24, 2015, 12:52 am

      The one thing you can depend on, is that Israel will NOT provide you or anyone else with a map of Israel. That would not suit its larger plan, which consists of more and more land thefts.

  3. CigarGod
    October 22, 2015, 11:10 am

    I think I just heard Bibi say:
    Some people would be happy to live in a nation of tropical islands. What is wrong with those people?

    • pabelmont
      October 22, 2015, 1:13 pm

      Yes, tropical islands soon to be underwater due to global warming. But even tropical islands typically allow folks to go between them (by canoe) without checkpoints, roadblocks, body-cavity-searches, etc. ad naus. He’s comparing rotten apples (Palestine today) and healthy coconuts.

      • RoHa
        October 22, 2015, 7:04 pm

        (Psst, pabelmont. How soon is “soon”? The best observed data from the SEAFRAME shows little or no change in South Pacific sea level.

        link to bom.gov.au)

      • truthurts
        October 22, 2015, 7:48 pm

        quite interestingly madagascar was an original potential place for the zionist project

  4. hophmi
    October 22, 2015, 11:15 am

    There was no Palestinian state or Palestinian state in waiting in 1946. That is the main problem with this agitprop graphic.

    • Annie Robbins
      October 22, 2015, 11:45 am

      the graphic references palestinian land, not state. there’s no problem with the graphic.

      • hophmi
        October 22, 2015, 1:36 pm

        Perhaps you’re right. If there’s no problem with the graphic, I guess the yellow portion of the West Bank is Israeli land now.

      • Annie Robbins
        October 22, 2015, 5:40 pm

        settlers and their army control it, obviously. that’s the point.

      • JWalters
        October 22, 2015, 6:55 pm

        Correction – the yellow portion of the West Bank is Israeli ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED land now.

      • talknic
        October 23, 2015, 6:16 pm

        @ hophmi “If there’s no problem with the graphic, I guess the yellow portion of the West Bank is Israeli land now”

        By what legal instrument, agreement or treaty did it become “Israeli land now”?

        If what you say is true it should be easy to produce the document. Go ahead …. I’ll wait …

        Fact is you can’t.

        Fact is no-one can because there simply isn’t one.

    • Talkback
      October 22, 2015, 1:19 pm

      Palestine was allready a state under mandate and then it was overtaken by an Apartheid junta through war and expulsion. That is the main problem for Zionist agitprop.

    • echinococcus
      October 22, 2015, 1:44 pm

      Hophmi,

      There was a state under colonial British mandate. The mandate, as written, being that of preserving the rights of the indigenous population, excluding all organized, armed interlopers unauthorized by the local population, to sovereignty over the entire territory and to protect the indigenous population against any such.
      If there is or not a Palestinian state is none of your business as an American of Russian or Bessarabian or Martian origin.

    • Donald
      October 22, 2015, 4:11 pm

      Okay, Hophmi,what they should show is one map with all the 400 or so Palestinian villages that were emptied and destroyed in 1948 by the Israelis. Maybe another map or the same one showing all the land that was confiscated by the Israelis in 1948, and then another with the land confiscated or controlled on the West Bank by the Israelis since 1967.

      • JWalters
        October 22, 2015, 6:58 pm

        Excellent map ideas. Showing the 400 destroyed villages is especially informative, since that’s an indicator of the human beings that were directly impacted.

    • RoHa
      October 22, 2015, 7:07 pm

      “There was no Palestinian state or Palestinian state in waiting in 1946.”

      There was a State of Palestine in 1946. It was under British Mandate. We’ve been through this over and over again. Why do you refuse to accept it?

      • truthurts
        October 22, 2015, 8:12 pm

        quite obviously it’s a zionist psychotic truth perverting POS!
        didn’t you know bibi pays these truth-perverters very well?

      • CigarGod
        October 23, 2015, 11:14 am

        Because…year after year, we all take turns engaging his drivel…instead of spending our time productively.
        MW should ban him on both counts.
        Habitual drivel and time wasting.

      • Mooser
        October 23, 2015, 11:51 am

        “MW should ban him on both counts.”

        If my memory is correct (always a tenuous proposition) Annie advised that objections to posters might best be made in an e-mail to the Editors. As I remember, (this I checked) Hophmi had no hesitation in doing that when he was dissatisfied with the responses to his comments:

        “Phil agrees with me, by the way, that I put up with a lot of nonsense here; I’ve written him a number of times, and he’s always been a gentleman. I think he’s repulsed by a good deal of the commentary here.” – See more at: link to mondoweiss.net

        And considering what I saw, word-search ‘Phil’, before I got to that comment, Phil has every reason to be.

    • talknic
      October 22, 2015, 11:34 pm

      @ hophmi “There was no Palestinian state or Palestinian state in waiting in 1946”

      Completely irrelevant. The state of Israel was “… proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947” by the Israeli Government. Effective as of 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time)

      Nothing outside of those borders is Israeli by any legal instrument or agreement. In fact since 1933 it has been illegal for any state to recognize any territories acquired by any coercive means link to pages.citebite.com

  5. Neil Schipper
    October 22, 2015, 1:32 pm

    I will ask readers to reflect on the fact that the plan associated with map 2 would secure private land rights — homes, farms, and business — of all residents. Remember who recommended it, who accepted it, and who rejected it.

    • talknic
      October 23, 2015, 6:06 pm

      @ Neil Schipper “I will ask readers to reflect on the fact that the plan associated with map 2 would secure private land rights — homes, farms, and business — of all residents”

      OK. I’ve reflected. Your argument is stinking Ziopoop. Red heifer sh*t.

      UNGA res 181 says NO THING about securing “private land rights — homes, farms, and business” for the simple fact that real estate transactions could change ownership of real estate. Furthermore real estate laws in a state are set by that state and none of the UN’s business

      “Remember who recommended it, who accepted it” … and who “proclaimed” their borders effective by it and were recognized by those borders and no more link to trumanlibrary.org

      ” .. and who rejected it”

      Irrelevant Ziononsense drivel for morons to perpetuate.

      The simple fact is: what was not proclaimed or recognized as Israeli simply wasn’t and still isn’t Israeli. Same rule applies to all states.

      No state has ever recognized any further territory as Israeli because since at least 1933 it has been illegal for states to recognize territories acquired by any coercive measure link to pages.citebite.com

      There is no legal instrument or agreement whereby any further territories have become Israeli. In over fourty years of my asking no one has ever been able to produce any valid evidence of legal acquisition. NADA NIL NOUGHT ZIP NO THING

  6. ckg
    October 22, 2015, 5:18 pm

    And there is also Netanyahu’s own map, which goes a step farther: Israel includes all of the West Bank but not Gaza.

    • truthurts
      October 22, 2015, 8:14 pm

      no satantahu’s map includes all the area from the nile to the euphrates
      which the psycho’s call greater israel

  7. JWalters
    October 22, 2015, 6:51 pm

    Some news people at MSNBC are trying to poke the truth through the Israeli thugs’ blackout of truth in America. The execs were squeezed by the Very Big Money mobsters. But the tide is starting to turn. Too many people have too much access to too much information on the internet. The mainstream news organizations are on the way to becoming laughingstocks for their apparent massive ignorance of the news. Their stock will plummet, many reputations will be ruined. Reporters and editors are wondering how long they can continue conspiring with this obvious evil.

  8. tokyobk
    October 22, 2015, 9:20 pm

    the pre 1948 maps should be careful not to imply that Jewish Palestinians were not also legal residents on lawfully acquired land.

    After that, I am glad this depiction of the slow choking of Palestine made it onto to national news.

    • oldgeezer
      October 22, 2015, 9:32 pm

      That would be fair. Just care should be taken to show that nonJewish Palestinians were lawful inhabitants on land declared to be Israel at the same point in time. This is particularly relevant that they are treated as second class citizens and may proposals are floated suggesting their towns be redesignated as Palestinian land thereby depriving them of citizenship in the country of their birth.

      Really the demographics and land are legal issues outside of the demographic question.

      • tokyobk
        October 22, 2015, 9:41 pm

        Of course. The stripping of non-Jewish Palestinian’s citizenship is a great and ongoing crime. The maps show this process very effectively.

        My point of course is that places like Safed and Jerusalem have almost always had Jewish landowners. These are not outside invaders. The future of One State, imo, requires refiguring all Zionist (and other) citizenship determinations based on Jewish/non Jewish.

      • echinococcus
        October 22, 2015, 10:46 pm

        The 5% or so Jewish Palestinians who were residents prior to the start of the Zionist invasion, 1897 at the latest, are of course Palestinians. Your way of formulating things is unclear, ambiguous and inviting confusion.

      • Mooser
        October 22, 2015, 11:07 pm

        “My point of course is that places like Safed and Jerusalem have almost always had Jewish landowners.”

        Is this where we go into the difference between ‘territory’ and ‘real estate’? What difference does the religion of the ownership of the land have to do with it. You seem fascinated by the Jewish aspect of this. No matter who owned the plots, it was Palestinian territory.

      • gamal
        October 23, 2015, 12:06 am

        “The idea that a religion or race or ethnicity owns land has been a great cause of misery on earth” TBK oct 16

        and

        “My point of course is that places like Safed and Jerusalem have almost always had Jewish landowners” TBK oct 23

        a week is a long time.

  9. Kathleen
    October 22, 2015, 11:05 pm

    This was a big move by MSNBC. All maps shown on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, even Cspan’s Washington Journal put up maps showing the West Bank as one contiguous piece of Palestinian land. Not once has an accurate map gone up on these outlets before this.

    Folks should be contacting MSNBC and thanking them for actually showing the close to accurate map.

    • Mooser
      October 22, 2015, 11:19 pm

      “Folks should be contacting MSNBC and thanking them for actually showing the close to accurate map.”

      Yes. And it is a shocking sight. There will be complaints about the yellow color.

    • Sibiriak
      October 23, 2015, 1:19 am

      Kathleen, I agree with your assessment. This map is a HUGE step forward. Details aside, it dramatically shows the Big Picture: relentless Israeli expansion, Palestinian land loss, and the tiny, fragmented, non-contiguous nature of the Palestinian territories that remain.

  10. talknic
    October 22, 2015, 11:38 pm

    WHAT???

    C’mon guys and gals. The map is VERY wrong. It shows all areas in yellow as Israeli.

    No territory beyond Israel’s self proclaimed frontiers has ever been legally acquired or recognized as Israeli by any legal instrument or by any other state. It is illegal for states to recognize territory acquired by any coercive measure link to pages.citebite.com

    Whether there was or was not a Palestinian state is also irrelevant Zionist twaddle. Pre-existing Palestinian state or not, what isn’t Israeli simply isn’t Israeli!

    • Mooser
      October 23, 2015, 12:05 am

      Damn it, Talknic, you are right! I just made the assumption that everybody viewing would know it represented Israel’s illegal expansion. But you are right, unless that is specified, (or assumed) that these are areas occupied not legally annexed, the map would read quite differently for some viewers. In fact, would say exactly the opposite of what it should to them.

    • Sibiriak
      October 23, 2015, 1:26 am

      talknic: The map is VERY wrong. It shows all areas in yellow as Israeli.

      ——————–

      The map only shows land controlled by Israel, i.e. land that is de facto Israeli. Nowhere is it stated or implied that all the yellow areas are legally Israeli, i.e. part of the Israeli state de jure.

      If the map was intended to show legally acquired and internationally recognized Israeli territory, then the map would be saying that all the settlements in the West Bank, and the connecting infrastructure etc. , are legally part of the state of Israel. That is clearly not the intention.

      • Mooser
        October 23, 2015, 4:02 pm

        “If the map was intended to show legally acquired and internationally recognized Israeli territory…”

        …it would be blue instead of yellow. Well, it makes me feel better that it’s not blue, anyway.

      • talknic
        October 23, 2015, 5:46 pm

        It is very clear to me by the legend which says “ISRAEL LAND” … depicting the land as belonging to ISRAEL and lost by Palestine

    • WH
      October 23, 2015, 3:16 am

      Well sure, this is about seizing territory rather than legal legitimacy.

    • bryan
      October 24, 2015, 2:54 am

      I agree Talknic – supporters of the Palestinian cause play a dangerous game in presenting such maps because they appear to legitimise the Israeli position. They do unfortunately represent a current balance of power, but Areas A, B, and C were intended to be merely transitional as Palestinian control was intended to steadily expand from A and into B and C within the five years it would take to establish a final settlement. Despite the abject failure to reach a final agreement within the Oslo Accords, these temporary and transitional zones are now fossilised into an enduring status quo. This injustice must be highlighted whenever these maps are presented.

  11. talknic
    October 23, 2015, 12:30 am

    link to timesofisrael.com

    In Monday’s apology, Snow told viewers that the mistake had become apparent after the segment aired and the network regretted using the maps.

    “The bottom line is it was completely wrong; there was no state called Palestine,” Fletcher said.

    The bottom line is they’ve been flooded by Israeli propagandists

  12. talknic
    October 23, 2015, 4:53 am

    Zionists have had more than a century practicing the craft of deceit and putting their money and influence to work crushing anything and anyone who gets in the way of their vile scheme

    They’re a curse on humanity and the greatest threat Judaism has ever had to face. Turning people into pathetic puppets through fear and intimidation. Attracting and buying the services of pathological liars, cheats, bigots, racists, murderers and those who thrive on sinking the jackboot in at every opportunity

    • CigarGod
      October 23, 2015, 9:41 am

      Your last paragraph reads like it was taken out of a book on the Borgia’s.
      I hope zionism will suffer the same fate.

      • Naftush
        October 26, 2015, 4:34 am

        Zionism already suffered the same fate. Today, the State of Israel exists. Only in Arab venues and fellow-traveling Western ones like this site is it de rigueur to turn the clock back and debate “Zionism.”

      • talknic
        October 26, 2015, 10:22 pm

        Naftush ” Only in Arab venues and fellow-traveling Western ones like this site is it de rigueur to turn the clock back and debate “Zionism.””

        Strange, the Zionist Federation still exists

        BTW who tries to turn the clock back 3,000 years?

  13. lyn117
    October 23, 2015, 1:13 pm

    I doubt that the whole of the Golan Heights was Jewish-owned prior to 1948 as well. I mean, there are (or were) major Arab towns and 100+ villages there, ethnically cleansed in 1967.

    • Mooser
      October 23, 2015, 1:23 pm

      “I doubt that the whole of the Golan Heights was Jewish-owned prior to 1948 as well.”

      I don’t think it would matter if it was. Don’t confuse territory and real estate. I own my house and property, but I can’t decide to turn it over to another government or country or entity. Or even decide the local laws and regs don’t apply at my place.

  14. bryan
    October 23, 2015, 2:06 pm

    Isn’t there an even bigger problem that not only are the current maps nonsense but that there is no archaeologically validated map of the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria, which we are supposed to believe someone called god assigned to some ancient tribe (or numerous tribes) millenia ago, in perpetuity. If you can’t get your ancient birthright correct, (beyond some vague assertion that it stretched from the river of Egypt (which river?) to the Euphrates (which part?) then how the hell can you determine your modern inheritance?

  15. Ossinev
    October 23, 2015, 2:31 pm

    Just watched a recording of a BBC HardTalk programme ( still available on BBC I Player ) featuring an interview by Stephen Sakur of the “moderate” Israeli leader Yair Lapid. Very interesting as a piece of quality forensic journalism which in a half hour puts to shame a thousand hours of the arslikhan equivalent in the American MSM. On the question of his own support of a shoot to kill policy when soldiers, police or “licenced gun holding civilians” are faced with stabbers or potential stabbers he makes the usual nonsense claim that this is exactly what happens in England where of course there are no soldiers,armed police or armed civilanns wandering the street and there are laws and the laws are applied. He does comes across as being reasonably sane as compared to the lunatic Nitay but nevertheless wriggles and twists and turns and continues to come up with these ludicrous comparison scenarios so entrenched in the Zionist Hasbara mindset such as on the question of the possible division of Jerusalem .”Is London the eternal capital of England or are you willing to give half of it to the French” FFS. !! Sakur bites back everytime particularly when Lapid vomits up the old spew about you don`t treat the Palestinians the way you treat us in these interviews. The really interesting points however come toward the end of the interview when he is firmly pinned down on the options facing Israel if the two state solution is not met. He says sooner or later the Palestinians will come to us and say OK then give us the vote.And then there are two options. We say no and we are not a democracy .We say yes and we are not a Jewish state anymore. So there must be a separation. A little while earlier I was a little bit confused when he referred to the need to “build a higher wall” between “us and the Palestinians. I don`t think he meant concrete rather he was using a metaphor for political separation but who knows. By the end I felt that he was quite close to giving in and saying to Stephen “Do you know what I think we are screwed”. Right at the end he made a half hearted attempt to return to archetype when in what appeared to be joke mode he asked Stephen to be”try and cover us in a more fair way”.

    As I said for all the conveyor belt Hasbara he at least came across as capable of self deprecation and a polar opposite of the unhinged egotist Nitay.

  16. farhad
    October 23, 2015, 3:01 pm

    Correct me if I am wrong. The maps include the Golan Heights as part of Jewish own land in Palestine or Israeli territory from the start. But Golan Heights were captured by Israel in 1967 from Syria and then annexed in 1981, an act not recognized by the UN (or the US).

    • Mooser
      October 23, 2015, 3:07 pm

      “The maps include the Golan Heights as part of Jewish own land in Palestine or Israeli territory from the start”

      That’s the point. “Jewish own land” and “Israeli territory” are not the same thing.

    • talknic
      October 23, 2015, 5:40 pm

      @ farhad … The Golan was never annexed. The Knesset decided against and said nothing about annexation of the Golan because A) it would have been condemned by the UNSC as was the annexation of East Jerusalem and B) it would have made impossible a peace treaty with Syria, a nearby nation. One should also read Deuteronomy 20:15 … and the arguments by Israeli propagandists against Palestinian statehood (not belonging to any nearby nation) where as the Golan did belong to a nearby nation.

      They simply took the Golan, claimed it, settled it, instituted Israeli civil law and act which was condemned in UNSC Res 497 link to yale.edu

      In respect to recognition. Recognition of territory acquired by any coercive measure has been illegal since at least 1933. link to pages.citebite.com

  17. Hermies Purrbuckets
    October 23, 2015, 3:12 pm

    Two things I find curious about the MSNBC graphic. 1/ why they even broadcast it when they must have known it would raise hackles. 2/ why the “invaders” are portrayed in yellow, a common color to symbolize cowardice. Perhaps they deliberately attempted to be provocative? If so, Mission Accomplished! The fish took the bait!

  18. James Canning
    October 23, 2015, 5:52 pm

    Rather pathetic on the part of MSNBC. But suppressing the truth is highly important for the LOBBY.

    • Kathleen
      October 25, 2015, 12:07 pm

      James I actually believe this is the first or close to one of the main stream outlets putting up a map that comes closer to being accurate.

      • James Canning
        October 25, 2015, 1:26 pm

        I agree, Kathleen. I was under the impression the apology had more to do with running the maps in the first place. Thanks.

  19. Cosmus
    October 25, 2015, 2:06 am

    There were no palestinians living in the north of Israel as it was swamps and malaria infested. AND no one lived in the desert, which is 60% of that map, beside some Bedouins. So no one forced to move out from those areas, which is about 80% of that map. Even after Israel took the west bank from Jordan in 67, no one was forced to move out, who ever wanted to stay, stayed, but under Israeli rule.

    Now, this map shows a piece of land in the middle east clearly in the shape of today’s modern Israel. This was not the case in 1947 where Israel didn’t exist and they do write it in the article. But it also imply that there was a palestinian state back than exactly in the same borders that Israel have today. It’s not just the map itself that counts, it’s the message this image send into people minds, which is completely false and inaccurate, because of 2 other very important FACTS: 1. The Gaza strip was part of Egypt in 1947, and should be a part of Egypt in the map. 2. The west bank was a part of Jordan, and should be a part of Jordan in the map. In 1947 the area was under the control of the British empire, but the border lines where clear. It was decided by a majority decision in the UN that the Jewish people will have their own State after the 2nd world war and the holocaust, and that piece of land was given. Inevitably, some people will be forced to move. So let’s look at the options, that those so called refugees have in the following map: link to mefacts.com Just saying. Another fact that you may want to consider, is that a lot of the land that Israel took during the wars, was to gain strategic advantage in order to protect it’s people from terror and war from neighboring countries since the 2nd day it existed. If the region was to accept Israel and the Jewish people, and was peaceful, welcoming and understand to the long hard suffering of the Jewish people, no more land would have been taken. And finally, a question: Why in the article they decided to stop at the Roman empire? Why didn’t they went further back? If they have decided to go back in time, why stop there? It is the Romans who destroyed the 2nd mount temple ever built. That is a FACT. And the mount temple was built by Jews. So fact checks are Just Fine. But let’s look at ALL the facts, before we do a FACT CHECK. Have a blessed week.

    • talknic
      October 26, 2015, 10:51 pm

      Cosmus “There were no palestinians living in the north of Israel as it was swamps and malaria infested. AND no one lived in the desert, which is 60% of that map, beside some Bedouins.”

      Irrelevant. Israel proclaimed its borders to the world in its plea for recognition May 15th 1948.
      link to trumanlibrary.org
      That’s how Israel was recognized and no state has since recognized any of the territory Israel has since acquired by war.

      ” Even after Israel took the west bank from Jordan in 67″

      By 1933 it was illegal to acquire territory by any coercive measure. link to pages.citebite.com
      Israel has not legally acquired any territory beyond its self proclaimed May 15th 1948 borders

      “Now, this map shows a piece of land in the middle east clearly in the shape of today’s modern Israel.”

      No it doesn’t buddy. It shows as Israeli territories the Israeli Government claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

      “But it also imply that there was a palestinian state back than…”

      There was, it had a nationality Law (adopted 1925) and provisional recognition. Jewish folk could acquire Palestinian citizenship link to avalon.law.yale.edu

      ” 2 other very important FACTS: 1. The Gaza strip was part of Egypt in 1947,”

      Bullsh*t pal. Here’s the official survey map of Palestine August 1944 link to unispal.un.org

      Egypt occupied Gaza after the 1948 war. Egypt did not claim Gaza as its own.

      ” The west bank was a part of Jordan, and should be a part of Jordan in the map”

      More bullsh*t. Jordan was an independent state by 1946. The West Bank as it is now known, was legally annexed at the request of the Palestinians Jordan’s annexation was as a trustee only (Session: 12-II Date: May 1950). By 1967 The West Bank was a part of a Jordan, a High Contracting Power and Member of the UN.

      “It was decided by a majority decision in the UN that the Jewish people will have their own State after the 2nd world war and the holocaust, and that piece of land was given”

      Indeed, entirely gratis and its borders were proclaimed effective by the Israeli Government May 15th 1948. No territory has since been legally acquired by Israel by any agreement or legal instrument

      ” Another fact that you may want to consider …”

      Whoa there … you haven’t presented ANY facts yet. All you’ve done is spew nonsense

      ” a lot of the land that Israel took during the wars, was to gain strategic advantage in order to protect it’s people from terror and war from neighboring countries since the 2nd day it existed”

      Nonsense. Under Plan Dalet Jewish forces were beyond what became Israel’s self proclaimed borders BEFORE they were proclaimed. The regional powers had a right to attempt to expel Israeli forces from non-Israeli territories the moment Israel’s borders became known.

      There are no UNSC resolutions against any Arab state for attacking Israeli forces in territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

      ” If the region was to accept Israel and the Jewish people, and was peaceful, welcoming and understand to the long hard suffering of the Jewish people, no more land would have been taken”

      Strange, the Zionist Federation planned to colonize Palestine in 1897 link to jewishencyclopedia.com

      ” But let’s look at ALL the facts, before we do a FACT CHECK”

      When are you gonna start?

  20. Atlantaiconoclast
    October 25, 2015, 10:18 pm

    “Inevitably, some people will be forced to move. So let’s look at the options, that those so called refugees have in the following map: link to mefacts.com Just saying. Another fact that you may want to consider, is that a lot of the land that Israel took during the wars, was to gain strategic advantage in order to protect it’s people from terror and war from neighboring countries since the 2nd day it existed. If the region was to accept Israel and the Jewish people, and was peaceful, welcoming and understand to the long hard suffering of the Jewish people, no more land would have been taken.”

    Huh? Inevitably, people will be forced to move? And your justification for forcing someone to move from a home? And nice job conflating opposition to Israeli aggression as “terror.” As others have pointed out, no Arab army EVER attacked any part of Israel that was part of the land alotted to the Jews for a state. And I’m cuing the violins after reading your reference to the “long, hard suffering of the Jewish people.” Jews are not the only people ever to have suffered. And not every instance of Jewish suffering has it’s origin in some evil done by non Jews. Why is it ok to presume that the fault in a conflict between Jews and non Jews in the past, and any subsequent Jewish suffering, was the sole fault of non Jews? Try again.

  21. Naftush
    October 26, 2015, 4:30 am

    Cartography, meet catechism. The starting year, 1946, is chosen mendaciously because the UN allows any Arab in Mandate Palestine from that time on to claim Palestinian refugee status. The 1946 map is festooned with the word “Palestine” as if there were a state that went by that name — there wasn’t — and as if there were an Arab people that went by that name — there wasn’t. An Ottoman map labeling the place as “Southern Syria” or the southern part of the Jerusalem district would be more valid in the eyes of most of the country’s Arab population, which still resented having been cut off by Sykes-Picot from its capital, Damascus, and left the term “Palestinian” to the Jews. […]

    • Annie Robbins
      October 26, 2015, 2:40 pm

      Naftush, please review the comment policy. specifically #2.

      • Naftush
        October 26, 2015, 3:16 pm

        Thank you for referring me to the policy. I don’t think it was my remark about Mandate Palestine’s non-state status that motivated the comment. Mandate Palestine did not have statehood status; Resolution 181 proposed to change that. Of course there were Palestinian people but I contend that the non-Jewish population and its leaders left that adjective to the Jews. Nakba denial? The Arabs of Mandate Palestine definitely experienced a Nakba: social devastation, mass casualties, and the creation of many real refugees. […] the Jewish side sustained 2400 civilian fatalities.

      • Annie Robbins
        October 26, 2015, 4:48 pm

        my pleasure, and you’re right that it wasn’t your reference about Mandate Palestine’s non-state status that prompted my warning. we don’t publish the discussion:

        efforts to blame the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 on Palestinian actions

        mentioning benny morris or any other historian to forward that argument or lessen the responsibility of those responsible for the nakba probably won’t get published. framing your opinion by paraphrasing alleged pro palestine activists citing zionist responsibility and then denigrating your alleged paraphrasing is just another form of nakba denial.

      • talknic
        October 26, 2015, 7:25 pm

        Naftush “Mandate Palestine did not have statehood status”

        So what was it that had provisional recognition?

        1)

        LoN Covenant 1919
        ARTICLE 22. link to avalon.law.yale.edu

        To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

        The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.

        The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.

        Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

        Other peoples, especially those of Central Africa …

        I don’t believe Palestine was in Central Africa

        The LoN Covenant was reaffirmed in 1922

        LoN Mandate for Palestine 1922 link to pages.citebite.com

        the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations , to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine

        Furthermore it gave Jewish folk the right to become citizens of “Palestine”

        LoN Mandate for Palestine 1922 Article 7 link to avalon.law.yale.edu

        The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.

        Nationality law was adopted on the 24th July 1925 (Official Gazette of the Government of Palestine, No. 147, September 16, 1925, pp. 460–466 )

        So not only was Palestine a state with provisional recognition, it was a nation.

        ” Resolution 181 proposed to change that”

        It proposed to partition Palestine, a Nation State that had provisional recognition

        ” Of course there were Palestinian people but I contend that the non-Jewish population and its leaders left that adjective to the Jews”

        Got anymore weird theories. The law said all citizens of Palestine were Palestinian and the majority of legitimate citizens were not Jews, we were a minority

        “…. the Jewish side sustained 2400 civilian fatalities”

        A) Cite your sources please B) Palestinian civilian fatalities were nil?

      • MHughes976
        October 27, 2015, 4:50 am

        The whole idea of a Mandate has to be that the political rights of the inhabitants are temporarily limited, of course within a well defined territory, solely in order that they may be fully exercised later and that things will be better for them, not worse, because the Mandate has existed. Thus the governments of the world show enlightened concern for people in areas temporarily troubled and disrupted. Without this idea the Mandate is invasion and marauding authorised by an international conspiracy.

      • Sibiriak
        October 27, 2015, 9:19 am

        MHughes976: … the governments of the world show enlightened concern for people in areas temporarily troubled and disrupted. Without this idea the Mandate is invasion and marauding authorised by an international conspiracy.
        —————

        I appreciate your irony. The Mandates were, of course, designed for the express purpose of consolidating and legitimating the spoils of “invasion and marauding.”

        —————–

        British troops under General Edmund Allenby entered Jerusalem in December 1917, and took control of the rest of Palestine from the Turks over the next year. In London, Lloyd George, Balfour, and Sykes prepared the groundwork for incorporating Palestine into the British Empire and for carrying out the Balfour Declaration.

        But they faced the problem of justifying an extension of the British Empire at a time when imperialism had fallen into disrepute— blamed by Wilson and Lenin, as well as by the labor and social democratic parties of Europe, for World War I— and when the principle of national self-determination had become wildly popular among colonized peoples.

        To avoid the charge of imperialism, the British agreed to the idea, formulated by the South African Jan Smuts and endorsed by Wilson, that the victorious Allies should receive “mandates” to oversee the transition of former Ottoman or German colonies to self-government. In Wilson’s mind, these mandates were to go to countries like Sweden that had no stake in becoming colonial powers, but Britain, France, Italy, and Japan saw the mandates as a means of expanding their holdings without incurring the charge of imperialism.

        That ruse became easier to pull off after Wilson, the main foe of imperialism, became incapacitated, and after the U.S. Senate refused to ratify the League of Nations treaty. So Britain set out to broaden its holdings in the Middle East by securing the mandate for Palestine.

        —————-

        John Judis, “Genesis: Truman, American Jews, and the Origins of the Arab/Israeli Conflict “(p. 64).

        The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine’s report to the UN General Assembly (1947) made it perfectly clear that the validity of the Mandates derived directly from rights of sovereignty obtained through imperial war:

        179. There would seem to be no grounds for questioning the validity of the Mandate for the reason advanced by the Arab States. The terms of the Mandate for Palestine, formulated by the Supreme Council of the Principal Allied Powers as a part of the settlement of the First World War, were subsequently approved and confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations.

        180. The spirit which prevailed at the creation of the Mandate for Palestine was explained by Lord Balfour at the opening of the eighteenth session of the Council of the League of Nations as follows:

        “The mandates are not our creation. The mandates are neither made by the League, nor can they, in substance, be altered by the League. . . .

        “Remember that a mandate is a self-imposed limitation by the conquerors on the sovereignty which they obtained over conquered territories. It is imposed by the Allied and Associated Powers themselves in the interests of what they conceived to be the general welfare of mankind and they have asked the League of Nations to assist them in seeing that this policy should be carried into effect.

        But the League of Nations is not the author of the policy, but its instrument. [emphasis added]

        link to unispal.un.org

    • talknic
      October 26, 2015, 11:17 pm

      Naftush ” The starting year, 1946, is chosen mendaciously because the UN allows any Arab in Mandate Palestine from that time on to claim Palestinian refugee status”

      Strange UNGA res 194 (1948) applied to Jewish folk as well. In fact UNWRA, which came 12 months after UNGA res 194 and acted in accordance with UNGA res 194, provided assistance for Jewish refugees in Israel until 1952 when Israel took over the responsibility after having given nothing to UNRWA for the work they did in Israel for Jewish refugees

      “The 1946 map is festooned with the word “Palestine” as if there were a state that went by that name — there wasn’t — and as if there were an Arab people that went by that name — there wasn’t”

      Whatever crap you need to walk in pal. All legitimate citizens of Palestine had PALESTINIAN Citizenship link to avalon.law.yale.edu the Nationality Law was adopted in 1925. Palestine was a Nation State in 1946.

      The partition of Palestine did not alter that status for what remained of Palestine after Israel proclaimed its borders effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) link to trumanlibrary.org

    • RoHa
      October 26, 2015, 11:48 pm

      “The 1946 map is festooned with the word “Palestine” as if there were a state that went by that name — there wasn’t”

      There was.

      ” — and as if there were an Arab people that went by that name — there wasn’t.”

      There were Arabs who lived there, and who were descendants of Arabs who lived there in the past. They were driven out, and their lands taken over, by the Zionists. How does the question of the name mitigate the injustice?

      • James Canning
        October 29, 2015, 1:51 pm

        Of course there was a state called Palestine in 1946. How curious anyone would try to claim otherwise.

  22. MaxNarr
    October 26, 2015, 5:29 pm

    MSNBC was right to apologize. All those who show the map of Israel with Judea and Samaria will be coerced to apologize soon as well.

    The ONLY loss of land in the past 100 years has been Jewish, less we forget the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of ALL Jewish civilians from their rightful homes in Gaza and Gush Katif in 2005.

    • James Canning
      October 29, 2015, 1:46 pm

      Jews expelled from the Gaza Strip were not living in Israel. The West Bank is not part of Israel.

    • eljay
      October 29, 2015, 1:51 pm

      || MaxNarr: … The ONLY loss of land in the past 100 years has been Jewish … ||

      1. There is no “Jewish land”.

      2. Thanks to Zio-supremacism and its past and on-going (war) crimes, very little of Palestine remains unoccupied and uncolonized by Israel.

    • talknic
      December 8, 2015, 10:20 pm

      @ MaxNarr “The ONLY loss of land in the past 100 years has been Jewish”

      Hasbaritis seems to make some folk say anything

      The Israeli Government itself claimed to be in military control of territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”. Israel has never withdrawn from any of these occupied territories, nor has Israel ever acquired them by any legal instrument or agreement with Palestine

      Israel has never had any territory taken

      ” less we forget the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of ALL Jewish civilians from their rightful homes in Gaza and Gush Katif in 2005″

      Israeli citizens settling illegally in non-Israeli territories have no right to be there, whether they’re Jewish, Arab, Muslim, Mormon, Buddhist, atheist

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2015, 10:27 pm

        “less we forget the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of ALL Jewish civilians from their rightful homes in Gaza and Gush Katif in 2005″

        He needs to talk to the GOI about that, doesn’t he?

      • RoHa
        December 8, 2015, 11:03 pm

        Talknic, Max said “Jewish”, not “Israeli”. We all know (because we have been told) that all land from the Nile to the Euphrates is Jewish, so withdrawal from Sinai or South Lebanon is a loss of Jewish land.

  23. rolf
    April 24, 2016, 5:22 pm

    see the world’s most comprehensive PALESTINE MAP debunking here:
    link to pinterest.com

    …especially when Zionism is trying desperately to hide the truth
    by lying about the Palestine map that is going viral,
    as much as Zionism is deceitfully obfuscating/exempting itself of “incremental Genocide” (Israeli historian Ilan Pappe) and replacing “anti-semitism” that world pressure exposed with “anti-israel” & “anti-zionism” nowadays

Leave a Reply