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Purported IDF video has men laughing as Palestinian is brutally killed

Israel/Palestine

This video, lately posted on Facebook, is said by our source to be a leaked Israel Defense Forces video that shows the killing of a Palestinian civilian carrying a white flag during the assault on Gaza in December ’08-January ’09.

While it is not clear to us that the target of the killing is carrying a white flag, the video soundtrack includes Israelis observing the killing and laughing at the brutality of the attack– something like the famous Collateral Murder video from Baghdad in 2007 leaked by Wikileaks.

Our source forwarded an email in Arabic from the person who uploaded it, stating:

his message translates into: the incident took place in an unspecified location of eastern Gaza in the Cast Lead war. it has recently been leaked.

Here is a translation from Ofer of the Hebrew soundtrack on the video at about :50, which he assumed was of soldiers:

First soldier: Now pay close attention to what happens in 3 seconds
Second soldier: his head gets severed
First soldier: And…beautiful! His head lands [on the ground]

The one-minute-long Facebook post contains two videos. The first is of two people in the doorway of a house; a woman waves a white flag. The second shows two figures walking in a field. One appears to carry a white flag that flutters when he or she is struck down. It is unclear whether the two videos in the Facebook post are from the same incident.

The Goldstone Report to the UN Human Rights Commission on the Gaza conflict documented several instances of  Israelis firing on and killing Palestinians holding up white flags. Note especially Chapter XI, Deliberate Attacks against the Civilian Population, beginning on page 158. In a couple of cases, that investigation documented women emerging from houses waving white flags and being shot at.

The famous “Collateral Murder” video of a US Apache gunship attack in 2007 in Baghdad that killed 11, including a Reuters employee, was documented in a military video released by Wikileaks in 2010. The video includes this exchange:

Oh, yeah, look at those dead bastards.

Nice.

Good shoot.

philweiss
About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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71 Responses

  1. just
    just
    August 12, 2013, 5:26 pm

    Murders by monsters……..wearing the uniforms of the “democracies”.

    My blood is running cold and hot at the same time. It’s murder– nothing less. What our soldiers did with the attack on the Iraqis was coldblooded, premeditated murder, too.

    Thanks to the whistle blower. If more folks only knew…….

  2. Blownaway
    Blownaway
    August 12, 2013, 5:34 pm

    In the collateral video the shooters were in a helicopter at a distance shooting at unarmed people. This is in many ways worse they are deliberatly shooting at unarmed old people waving a white flag

    • just
      just
      August 12, 2013, 5:54 pm

      With all due respect, Blownaway– they are equally horrendous.

      Guys/gals having a laugh while targeting human beings…………………. and we are supposed to “respect” these killing goons who clearly violate the law of despicable war?

      The IOF and many of our own US military have lost all of their “humanity” as they carry out horrific “missions” sanctioned by many of our fellow citizens. And, they have the gall to c/o of stone throwing?????????????

      Thanks to all of the whistle blowers everywhere. It is past time for our leaders to pay respect to those that are killed in our name and punish these miscreants.

  3. Taxi
    Taxi
    August 12, 2013, 5:53 pm

    I’m truly shocked by the execution image.

    But I’m not shocked at all at the expressions of casual hate from the zionist army. I think this is normal, standard fare in the idf, in the settler colonies and in big chunks of isreali civilian life.

    Maybe oleg (current idf-er) and jonS (ex idf-er) can share with us a nugget or two about assaults on unarmed civilians waving white flags.

  4. marc b.
    marc b.
    August 12, 2013, 5:55 pm

    will hopmhi argue that whoever released this video ‘broke the law?

    • Qualtrough
      Qualtrough
      August 13, 2013, 7:30 am

      I suspect he is waiting for word from his immediate superior on what the talking points should be for this one.

  5. eGuard
    eGuard
    August 12, 2013, 6:25 pm

    Why no translation?

  6. Xpat
    Xpat
    August 12, 2013, 6:43 pm

    Adobe not viewable or downloadable on my iPad.

    • Djinn
      Djinn
      August 12, 2013, 7:34 pm

      Elliot you can get free apps that allow you to view flash – puffin is not a bad one

  7. Daniel Rich
    Daniel Rich
    August 12, 2013, 9:02 pm

    Yes, I were much despise the IDF’s actions in general, however, honesty demands that I remind myself of the fact that I have witnessed these crimes being committed by all armies who’re dealing with ‘their’ enemies, no matter where and no matter when.

    This, as horrific as it may be, is no exception.

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      August 13, 2013, 2:00 pm

      This, as horrific as it may be, is no exception.

      If that’s the case, then we can stop discussing individual war crimes and turn to the discussion of illegal methods of warfare that have been declared criminal. In many instances war itself can be a crime.

      There is a line of thought, described by Prof. Anthony D’Amato, which holds that the “atavistic, bestial propensity of unrestrained soldiers to torture, rape, and kill defenseless civilians has unfortunately been true of all soldiers in all wars throughout all of history.” But those are still crimes that can be prosecuted, and upon conviction, punished. Even the Prof. admits that “By far the most important thing that the military commander must do in such a situation is to impose strict military discipline. That is the only thing that prevents soldiers from running amok.”

      Posting a video to Facebook of people laughing during the replay of a recording of someone blowing the head off of an unarmed enemy civilian doesn’t suggest that strict military discipline has been, or will be, imposed.

    • Kathleen
      Kathleen
      August 13, 2013, 2:19 pm

      “these crimes being committed by all armies who’re dealing with their enemies” How can you make such a broad statement? All? Sounds like you are making excuses for this type of horrific killing. Trying to divert, water down.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        August 13, 2013, 4:45 pm

        The statement is a bit broad, though it’s worth remembering that we’re none of us incorruptible. I’ve no array of evidence or analysis to support this but it does seem to me that one of the most corrupting things is a long-running conflict between a formal army and a civil population. That sense of absolute power, that sense of contempt. That’s what I think we’re seeing here – unless it’s a fake designed to make the likes of us rush to judgement. Even if it is a fake it may convey a certain measure of truth.

  8. Hostage
    Hostage
    August 13, 2013, 4:47 am

    Adobe not viewable or downloadable on my iPad.

    Nope. The folks at Facebook are just promoting Adobe flash players. It’s actually an .mp4 file that runs fine on the VLC and many other media players.

    I downloaded it to my Windows partition from Linux Mint, rebooted, added it to my iTunes Library, dragged and dropped it on my iPod movie folder, and played it with the native Apple Video app without any conversion at all. Of course the webpage still says that an Adobe player is required in both the iPod Safari and Google Chrome browsers;-)

    • Ecru
      Ecru
      August 13, 2013, 6:55 am

      Could you not get it to play on Mint, cause I’ve just watched it and I’m running Mint myself. And now kind of miss the days when Linux didn’t play with Adobe too well.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 13, 2013, 1:10 pm

        Could you not get it to play on Mint, cause I’ve just watched it and I’m running Mint myself. And now kind of miss the days when Linux didn’t play with Adobe too well.

        No, I had no problem playing it on Linux. I just noticed that it wasn’t a flash video and wanted to see if there really was a problem playing it with the native Apple Video app that comes with an iPod or iPad. But there wasn’t one.

  9. Obsidian
    Obsidian
    August 13, 2013, 5:20 am

    I see a woman standing in a doorway waving a white flag and not getting shot.

    I guess Mondoweiss sees it differently.

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      August 13, 2013, 12:26 pm

      It’s a big comedown for Hebrew from the Song of Songs to rejoicing a decapitation.

    • Xpat
      Xpat
      August 13, 2013, 12:56 pm

      I see a white cloth being waved in the second part of the video. Isn’t that enough to make this killing a murder?
      But I would like to know who vouches that the two parts of the clip are of the same incident? Also, the Hebrew implies that the person who was shot was a man.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 13, 2013, 1:23 pm

        I see a white cloth being waved in the second part of the video. Isn’t that enough to make this killing a murder?

        There is no valid military objective in either portion of the video that could justify the use of deadly force against civilians in armed self-defense.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        August 13, 2013, 2:20 pm

        bingo

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      August 13, 2013, 2:07 pm

      I guess Mondoweiss sees it differently.

      Try to point out the military objective in blowing the head off of an enemy civilian, who isn’t carrying any visible weapons or engaging in hostilities, without resorting to hate speech or exaggeration.

      I’ll start the ball rolling by pointing out this destroys any claims about “purity of arms”.

      • Obsidian
        Obsidian
        August 13, 2013, 2:21 pm

        Without context, I have no idea what happened in the second video. We are only assuming that the video is from the Gaza border. When the video was made and when the Hebrew commentary was appended is anybody’s guess.

        My best guess is that the video is of someone approaching the Gaza-Israel security fence and getting shot by the Israeli military.

        Hostage. How many Mexicans have been shot to death trying to cross the Arizona border?

        http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130410border-patrol-new-details-mexico-teens-death.html

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 13, 2013, 2:53 pm

        Without context, I have no idea what happened in the second video. We are only assuming that the video is from the Gaza border. … My best guess is that the video is of someone approaching the Gaza-Israel security fence and getting shot by the Israeli military.

        Hostage. How many Mexicans have been shot to death trying to cross the Arizona border?

        Funny how a lack of context and an uncertainty regarding the location of the event depicted in the video almost instantly morph into sufficient certainty:
        – to place the incident near the Gaza border, thereby “justifying” the shooting; and
        – to divert attention away from the video by challenging Hostage on the shooting of Mexicans by Americans, as though that particular wrong absolves Zio-supremacist defence forces of the murder of Palestinians.

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        August 13, 2013, 3:56 pm

        @ Obsidian

        And yet another example of that wonderful invention “Zionist Algebra” (an attempt to mirror mid 20th Century “German Physics” perhaps?). Which it has to be said bears more than a small resemblance to Mediaeval alchemy; whereby a completely unacceptable action by Israel/Israelis is somehow transmuted into an acceptable one by another completely unacceptable action in a totally different part of the world.

        So let’s try this out shall we. Just for giggles.

        Israeli people in 2001 are blown up by a suicide bomber in a pizza shop.
        But it’s OK, it’s not important, it’s been negated. And why? Because in the same year there was a massacre of Muslims in the village of Chalwalkote, Kashmir.

        Now most people would consider that type of deflection repugnant and demonstrative of a total immorality on the part of the person attempting it. Also not very bright because it’s not even effective, unless the person;s trying for to make people feel physically sick – in which case it works very well.

        So anyway, here’s a little knowledge for you Obsidian – TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT! Try and wrap your head around it. Although granted as a Zionist I understand how you might need to have an EpiPen ready for your allergic reaction to basic human decency.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        August 13, 2013, 4:12 pm

        How is the # of Mexicans shot, relevant?

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 13, 2013, 4:23 pm

        Hostage. How many Mexicans have been shot to death trying to cross the Arizona border?

        link to azcentral.com

        Unlike the IDF, the US government has no policy or law that would permit border agents or vigilantes to shoot any person for simply approaching the border fence.

        In other words, we’ve witnessed another hasbara failure and a feeble attempt at dissembling, and dissimulation. According to the article you cited, the US government is investigating the shooting incident. It still has open and on-going investigations in all of the other incidents cited in the article, except for the cases of federal agents who have already been prosecuted and convicted of shooting unarmed people, like former agents Ramos and Compean.

        The fact is that the Israeli government has established illegal kill zones inside the territory of Gaza in which the IDF can use deadly force without obtaining any further authorization. So by definition, that territory has been placed under the jurisdiction of the Israeli military and is under a regime of belligerent occupation according to the rules of the Hague and Geneva Conventions. Both of those contain prohibitions against murdering civilians at all times and in all places or the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, e.g Common Article 3

      • tree
        tree
        August 13, 2013, 4:42 pm

        My best guess is that the video is of someone approaching the Gaza-Israel security fence and getting shot by the Israeli military.

        Not a very good guess. The person is walking AWAY from the the camera and the shooter. If he was approaching the security fence he would be going in the opposite direction, toward the camera. He appears to be heading toward some houses in the background, not approaching any fence.

        Of course, as Hostage points out, even if he were “approaching the security fence” that would not justify his being killed. He is on Palestinian land, he has not invaded and attacked Israel.

      • Bing Bong
        Bing Bong
        August 13, 2013, 7:28 pm

        Funny how a lack of context means Hostage can assert this is an unarmed civilian who isn’t engaging in hostilities.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 13, 2013, 9:55 pm

        How is the # of Mexicans shot, relevant?

        It isn’t. But the article he cites mentions about 20 total cases over a number of years that are still being investigated. The Israelis kill that many people in a month’s time during periods of relative calm and usually close out such cases without conducting any investigations at all.

        It would certainly be illegal to setup Spot and Shoot systems to summarily execute aliens trying to cross into the United States to find work – and unheard of if the Border Patrol ever tried to justify killing farmers for working their own land next to the fence. http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-video-game-killing-technology/8919

      • Obsidian
        Obsidian
        August 14, 2013, 12:48 am

        @Hostage

        “the US government is investigating the shooting incident.”

        http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/09/border-patrol-agent-who-shot-mexican-teenager-dead-will-not-be-charged/

        Case closed.
        Let’s return to I/P.

      • Djinn
        Djinn
        August 14, 2013, 6:27 am

        I don’t know, I could see the appeal:

        Judge: Ms Djinn you have been charged with grievous assault against Mr Obsidian, how do you plead?

        Moi: Not guilty your honour, yesterday a man in Timbuktu beat his wife

        CASE CLOSED

      • Obsidian
        Obsidian
        August 14, 2013, 12:53 pm

        Charity begins at home, and so does justice.

        If you go around the world meting out justice like a knight errant, than you might not have a home to come back to.

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        August 14, 2013, 2:26 pm

        @ Djinn

        LOL. Beautiful.

      • annie
        annie
        August 14, 2013, 2:35 pm

        Funny how a lack of context means Hostage can assert this is an unarmed civilian who isn’t engaging in hostilities.

        and Obsidian’s hypothetical speculation? he was merely responding to that speculation, how is that lack of context? or are you supposed to be able to speculate it was merely like the US mexican border and expect no one would point out the differences between the situation on those borders?

        and he was walking away from the shooters, clearly no threat. or why is it you’re not advocating armed israel citizens are legitimate targets to have their heads blown off, since being armed in your eyes, justifies executions?

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 14, 2013, 3:01 pm

        >> Funny how a lack of context means Hostage can assert this is an unarmed civilian …

        Funny how you lack reading and/or comprehension skills. Hostage didn’t say the person was unarmed, he said the person “isn’t carrying any visible weapons”. You’re 0-1.

        >> … who isn’t engaging in hostilities.

        AFAIK, walking slowly and seemingly unarmed through an open field does not qualify as “engaging in hostilities”. You’re 0-2.

        I’d like to say “nice try”, but it was actually a pretty pitiful one.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 14, 2013, 4:50 pm

        Charity begins at home, and so does justice.

        If you go around the world meting out justice like a knight errant, than you might not have a home to come back to.

        Are you talking about the 1982 Lebanon War and Israel’s decades-long misadventures there as a result of its vendetta against the Palestinians?

        I know plenty of Americans, who were sent there during that period, actually felt that way about the Israelis. See for example the book by Under Secretary of State George Ball, Error and Betrayal in Lebanon, Foundation for Middle East Peace, 1984. http://www.amazon.com/Error-Betrayal-Lebanon-George-Ball/dp/0961370718

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 14, 2013, 5:08 pm

        Funny how a lack of context means Hostage can assert this is an unarmed civilian who isn’t engaging in hostilities.

        Once again, the film shows a human being getting his head blown-off for no apparent reason. You still can’t explain the military objective or military necessity for doing that.

        The film actually provides all the context that is necessary to ascertain that the person was not actively engaged in hostilities at the time when he was targeted and killed. That violates the guidelines contained in the Israeli Supreme Court decision on targeted killings or preventative strikes and the applicable prohibitions contained in Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions relative to the treatment of members of the enemy armed forces and enemy civilians. http://elyon1.court.gov.il/Files_ENG/02/690/007/a34/02007690.a34.HTM

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 14, 2013, 5:26 pm

        link to rawstory.com

        Case closed.
        Let’s return to I/P.

        Your article actually says:

        No charges were brought because the department “lacks jurisdiction” to prosecute the agent under a criminal civil rights use of force statute that “requires that the victim be in the United States when he was injured,” it said. . . . Following the shooting, Mexican authorities condemned the U.S. Border Patrol’s use of lethal force and called for a timely and transparent investigation, which is continuing.

        In any event you haven’t cited a single example of any US law or policy that allows the use of deadly force or the establishment of buffer zones or kill zones inside the territory of Mexico, much less any suggestion that such excuses can be used as an affirmative defense for shooting at persons who merely approach the fence or cross into US territory. There are several million people in this country who have done that without being gunned down.

        The person shown getting his head blown-off in this video isn’t resisting arrest or engaging in hostilities. So can you please explain the military necessity for the use of deadly force and the legitimate military objective that it achieved, that couldn’t have been obtained through the use of non-lethal methods?

        The article you cite mentioned exculpatory video of brick sized rocks being thrown at the agents, but there are no violent acts or provocation shown in this video.

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        August 16, 2013, 1:35 pm

        @ Obsidian

        If you go around the world meting out justice like a knight errant, than you might not have a home to come back to.

        So the Allies shouldn’t have bothered getting into it with Germany then?

      • Bing Bong
        Bing Bong
        August 16, 2013, 4:05 pm

        “Try to point out the military objective in blowing the head off of an enemy civilian, who isn’t carrying any visible weapons”

        I believe there would be a military objective in killing someone (either a civilian or enemy combatant) with a concealed weapon. Similarly doing the same to someone who has the intent, or having previously engaged in hostilities, does not violate a special dispensation obtained by walking through a field.

      • Bing Bong
        Bing Bong
        August 16, 2013, 4:17 pm

        “The film actually provides all the context that is necessary to ascertain that the person was not actively engaged in hostilities at the time when he was targeted and killed. That violates the guidelines contained in the Israeli Supreme Court decision on targeted killings”

        Walking through a field without a visible weapon in a short video does not mean he wasn’t engaged in hostilities. Hypothetically speaking of course, what better way to engage in hostilities than by concealing a weapon and pretending to go for a bracing stroll in a field? Plenty have done this by going for a refreshing ride on a bus or a delicious meal in a Jerusalem pizza shop. Unfortunately their heads weren’t blown off before doing so.

        Thankfully Israel has a legal system that provides guidelines against the killing of the unarmed who are not engaged in hostilities. If this person was such then Israel’s same legal system should take action against those that killed him or her.

        “…for no apparent reason.”

        You’re trying to prove a negative. Because you do not have context.

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      August 13, 2013, 5:12 pm

      Obsidian says: “I see a woman standing in a doorway waving a white flag and not getting shot.

      I guess Mondoweiss sees it differently.”

      No, it’s just that Mondoweiss has a longer attention span.

  10. Ecru
    Ecru
    August 13, 2013, 6:50 am

    Doesn’t surprise me in the least given the hasbarites you meet online who see even the death of Jewish children as nothing more than a propaganda victory. The death of actual Palestinians, no matter the age even babies, is met with cries of orgasmic delight. Zionism is a deeply dehumanising philosophy.

    Given that, the world might actually need Israel. It can serve as a kind of modern leper colony for Zionists. Build a wall round it (without doors), chuck ’em in and never let them back out. For safety’s sake surround it with a minefield too.

  11. a blah chick
    a blah chick
    August 13, 2013, 8:33 am

    Does your source say where the video came from? I’d be very interested to know who leaked it.

  12. Talkback
    Talkback
    August 13, 2013, 9:11 am

    Who was the terrorist, again?

  13. miriam6
    miriam6
    August 13, 2013, 10:29 am

    This is a video that even the Electronic intifada are choosing NOT to post at this present time

    In the source ( wretched of the earth) quoted in the MW article , Ali Abunimah comments about the video saying that:

    but need to have more info..

    BTW, isn’t every murder/killing – brutal by it’s very nature?

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 13, 2013, 3:10 pm

        >> See;
        >> link to timesofisrael.com

        So what? If those Palestinians are guilty, keep them in jail. Their release by the supremacist “Jewish State” of Israel does not justify:
        – the murder of Palestinians;
        – the occupation and colonization of Palestine;
        – past and ON-GOING Zio-supremacist Jewish (war) crimes;
        – the existence of an oppressive and supremacist “Jewish State”.

        What is it with Zio-supremacists that – instead of standing up for justice, morality, equality and accountability (among other positive values) – they insist on desperately looking for any and every possible excuse to justify their own or their co-collectivists’ immorality? Unreal…

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        August 13, 2013, 9:02 pm

        [email protected];

        If those Palestinians are guilty, keep them in jail.

        This sentence just shows that you know perfectly well Israel is being strong – armed by AMERICA into releasing these prisoner’s, many of whom killed CIVILIANS.

        You object quite rightly about the stronger party in the I/P conflict , i.e. Israel , using it’s superior power in undermining Palestinian sovereignty , well then , by the same extension , where is your rational objection in this case to a far superior power, in this case America , using it’s much more considerable power to force Israel to release these prisoners?

        In what way does America using it’s far greater power to FORCE Israel to release these prisoner’s , constitute your self proclaimed vision of justice, morality, accountability?

        Particularly when America exercises double standards in insisting for example , on keeping many prisoners jailed in Guantanamo Bay , many of them having been held there on detention without charge or trial?

        At least Israel put those released prisoner’s on trial.

        I ask you, who is ensuring American accountability?

        All the mystifying , blasé – pseudo – political- sounding – jargon you employ to refer to Israel and justify your position cuts no ice with me.

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 15, 2013, 1:51 pm

        >> This sentence just shows that you know perfectly well Israel is being strong – armed by AMERICA into releasing these prisoner’s, many of whom killed CIVILIANS.

        No, it doesn’t show that at all.

        >> … where is your rational objection in this case to a far superior power, in this case America , using it’s much more considerable power to force Israel to release these prisoners?

        I don’t see anyone forcing Israel to release prisoners. I see Israel releasing prisoners as a way to avoid doing what it actually should be doing – namely:
        – immediately and completely halting its occupation;
        – withdrawing to within its / Partition borders;
        – honouring its legal obligations; and
        – entering into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

        >> I ask you, who is ensuring American accountability?

        Unfortunately, no-one is ensuring American accountability. But empires don’t last forever and, at some point, America will be held to account.

        >> All the mystifying , blasé – pseudo – political- sounding – jargon you employ to refer to Israel and justify your position cuts no ice with me.

        Fair enough. Your hatefulness, immorality and supremacism cut no ice with me.

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      August 13, 2013, 12:00 pm

      “BTW, isn’t every murder/killing – brutal by its very nature?”

      Not if it is for the land of Israel, Miriam.

      • Obsidian
        Obsidian
        August 13, 2013, 2:24 pm

        I think that Miriam’s point may be the Israel is making real gestures to make peace with the Palestinians, such as freeing terrorists.

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        August 13, 2013, 3:58 pm

        @ Obsidian

        Freeing them? Obsidian old boy it’s doing far more than that, it’s employing them in the IDF and electing them to Government.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        August 13, 2013, 4:12 pm

        how do you know theyre all terrorists?

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        August 13, 2013, 4:34 pm

        Rejoice! the gestures are actually real. Real ones, not fake ones to get the EU off Israel’s case.
        Real gestures + 1200 real new settlement buildings = real Israeli peacemaking.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        August 13, 2013, 5:32 pm

        “I think that Miriam’s point may be the Israel is making real gestures to make peace with the Palestinians, such as freeing terrorists.”

        That terrorist spiel is no different to what Reagan’s people were saying about the indigenous people of Guatemala 30 years ago while they were being murdered.

        And it’s the same colonial mentality that drives the 2 situations.

        Israel still wants all of the land. Freeing prisoners is trivial.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        August 13, 2013, 9:11 pm

        [email protected];

        You can see already other commenters here don’t appreciate the sacrifice / gesture – Israel , – and the relatives of those civilians murdered are making…

        The I/P conflict remains as always , a simple-minded morality play for them.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        August 15, 2013, 2:12 pm

        “You can see already other commenters here don’t appreciate the sacrifice / gesture – Israel , – and the relatives of those civilians murdered are making…”

        No, we understand that you people aren’t manking any “sacrifice/gesture.” I wouldn’t doubt that your state’s Gestapo will murder many of these people in the near future, and, in the meantime, you will continue to steal more and more Palestinian land as you push this farce of “negotiations.”

        You want to make a sacrifice/gesture that will make people believe that you all are negotiating in good faith and aren’t trying to pull another of your b.s. to further oppress the Palestinians?? Pull all the colonists out from east of the green line. If you aren’t willing to do that, then this nonsense of crying fake crocodile tears over releasing the fighters can be dismissed as just so much show.

      • tree
        tree
        August 15, 2013, 3:44 pm

        You can see already other commenters here don’t appreciate the sacrifice / gesture – Israel , – and the relatives of those civilians murdered are making…

        Miriam, I mentioned this on another thread, but perhaps its something you need to know. According to the Wikipedia entry on “Homicide in Israeli Law”…

        (The premeditated killing of a person, or the intentional killing of a person whilst committing, preparing for, or escaping from any crime, is murder. The mandatory punishment for this crime is life imprisonment. Life is usually commuted (clemency from the President) to 30 years from which a third can be deducted by the parole board for good behaviour. Arab terrorists are not usually granted pardons or parole other than as part of deals struck with Arab terrorist organisations or foreign governments, and in exchange for captured Israelis or their corpses.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_in_Israeli_law#cite_note-unicef-3

        So, in plain English, if these Palestinian prisoners had instead been Israeli citizens, not only would they have had the legal protections of a fair trial, which they are denied in Israeli military courts, but most if not all of them would have been up for parole and/or released by now.

        You are gnashing your teeth over the release of prisoners who would have already been released, had they been Jews. I fail to see why this is considered such a “sacrifice” to you, unless you admit that you don’t believe in equal treatment under the law.

        For an example of this treatment of Israeli murderers, see here:

        Samuel Sheinbein:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Sheinbein

        Ami Popper:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ami_Popper

      • tree
        tree
        August 15, 2013, 3:54 pm

        And for an example of the Israeli treatment of Jewish terrorist groups that kill Palestinian civilians, see here, from 1990:

        3 Israeli Terrorists Are Released In 4th Reduction of Their Terms

        Three Jewish militants were freed today after serving less than seven years for killing three Arabs and maiming two Palestinian mayors in car bombings. They were greeted as heroes by fellow Jewish settlers.

        The three, members of the Jewish Underground, which carried out attacks in the West Bank in the early 1980’s, were granted a reduction of their original life sentences three times by Israeli President Chaim Herzog. They were then released on good behavior in a fourth cut in their terms.

        Dozens of West Bank settlers danced and chanted outside Maasiyahu Prison in Ramle, a town in central Israel, as the three former members of the underground — Menachem Livni, Shaul Nir and Uzi Sharbav — were released.

        Members of the crowd hoisted the three men on their shoulders, and Noam Arnon of the Gush Emunim settler movement praised them. ‘They Are Heroes’

        “They are heroes because they decided to sacrifice themselves, their future, their families, for the security of Jews,” he said on Israel radio.

        About a dozen Israeli liberals held a counter-demonstration to protest the early release.

        “This is a message of contempt for human life, of making a difference between one type of life and another, and it violates the basic tenet of equality before the law,” said Yitzhak Zamir, a former Attorney General.

        The three settlers were the last of 27 members of the Jewish Underground to be freed from prison.

        The group carried out car bombings in which two West Bank Mayors, Bassam Shaka of Nablus and Karim Halaf of Ramallah, lost limbs and a grenade and gun attack that killed three students and wounded 30 others at Hebron’s Islamic College.

        more at link

        http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/27/world/3-israeli-terrorists-are-released-in-4th-reduction-of-their-terms.html

      • just
        just
        August 16, 2013, 6:03 am

        “This sentence just shows that you know perfectly well Israel is being strong – armed by AMERICA into releasing these prisoner’s, many of whom killed CIVILIANS.”

        Hahaha– If only America would exert any influence on Israel beyond enabling its criminal behavior!!! Meanwhile, Israel constantly thumbs its collective nose at the US!

        “You can see already other commenters here don’t appreciate the sacrifice / gesture – Israel , – and the relatives of those civilians murdered are making…”

        Israel make a “sacrifice”? What planet do you live on, miriam?

        “The I/P conflict remains as always , a simple-minded morality play for them.”

        This is no “play”! This is real life, and Israel is the brutal aggressor, the violator of international laws ad nauseam, and the eternal thief.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        August 13, 2013, 9:07 pm

        “BTW, isn’t every murder/killing – brutal by its very nature?”

        parrots Seafoid in his typical blasé mode ;

        Apparently , no murder committed by a Palestinian is brutal enough when it for the land of Palestine

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-name-26-prisoners-to-be-released

  14. Hostage
    Hostage
    August 13, 2013, 4:37 pm

    I think that Miriam’s point may be the Israel is making real gestures to make peace with the Palestinians, such as freeing terrorists.

    As usual you are deliberately missing the point that international law allows the indigenous people to use armed struggle in the exercise of their right to self-determination.

    Many of the prisoners were members of uniformed militias who attacked military targets. They should never have been treated as terrorists, but rather as POWs under the terms of the 3rd Geneva Convention. See for example: “Perpetrators of deadly attack on IDF base among those slated for release”. http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Perpetrators-of-deadly-attack-on-IDF-base-among-those-slated-for-release-321341

    • Obsidian
      Obsidian
      August 14, 2013, 1:26 am

      “As usual you are deliberately missing the point that international law allows the indigenous people to use armed struggle in the exercise f their right to self-determination. ”

      Since, 1993, Israel has recognized the Palestinians right to self determination and made substantive efforts to give the Palestinians their State.

      Your reading of international law would allow for another Islamic terror State to flourish in the West Bank same as Israel got when she unilaterally left Gaza.
      No thanks.

      Sod international law, and in the alternative, let the two sides sit down face to face and negotiate away their differences like they’re trying to do now in Washington, D.C.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 15, 2013, 1:43 pm

        Since, 1993, Israel has recognized the Palestinians right to self determination and made substantive efforts to give the Palestinians their State.

        In 2004, the ICJ said that wasn’t good enough. It advised that Israel was illegally interfering in the exercise of the Palestinian right of self-determination in violation of the UN Charter. It also noted that Israel had violated its obligation to apply the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) in all of the territories that were subject to its jurisdiction. It advised that all states had a legal obligation to remove every impediment to the exercise of that right by the Palestinian people.

        FYI, Common Article 1(1) of the ICCPR and ICESCR says that:

        All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

        http://www.un-documents.net/iccpr.htm
        http://www.un-documents.net/icescr.htm

        In 1988, the Palestinians determined that their status was that of an independent state. The Declaration of Principles contained in the Oslo Accords didn’t even mention statehood as a final status issue. The Interim Agreement of 1995, which is the major post-Oslo agreement, specified that neither party shall be deemed “to have renounced or waived any of its existing rights, claims or positions” (Art. 31-6).

        Ever since that time, Israel and the US have been denying, blackmailing, and threatening the Palestinians and other countries to prevent recognition of any state, other than Israel, between the river and the sea. For it’s own part, Israel has argued that so long as it wishes to prosecute an armed conflict or maintain an alien occupation of the Palestinian territories, the rights that accrue to other human beings under the ICCPR and ICESCR do not accrue to the Palestinians. See CCPR/C/ISR/2001/2, para 8 or E/1990/6/Add.32, para 6-7

        Years ago the General Assembly rejected that thesis and adopted a resolution which explained to the United States and Israel that the option of a Palestinian state is not subject to the peace process or to any veto. See operative paragraphs 1 & 2 of resolution 55/87

        In that respect, the General Assembly and ICJ were simply repeating what customary and conventional international law have to say on the subject – and none of that says that the road to self-determination is through negotiation.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 15, 2013, 1:52 pm

        Your reading of international law would allow for another Islamic terror State to flourish in the West Bank same as Israel got when she unilaterally left Gaza.
        No thanks.

        No it doesn’t. My reading of international law requires both sides to observe and implement the applicable international laws and resolutions, including the armistice agreements, pending a final settlement, international adjudication, or international arbital decision. It’s way past time to send in a Chapter 7 peace keeping force and withdraw the fox from the hen house.

      • American
        American
        August 15, 2013, 2:20 pm

        It’s way past time to send in a Chapter 7 peace keeping force and withdraw the fox from the hen house”…Hostage

        Exactly.
        As Gen Jones and others have recommended for years—-and Israel refuses……because it is the fox in the hen house.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        August 15, 2013, 2:07 pm

        “Since, 1993, Israel has recognized the Palestinians right to self determination and made substantive efforts to give the Palestinians their State.”

        Get out completely or STFU. Twenty years of you people screwing around has demonstrated that the lot of you are nothing but lying thieves.

        “Your reading of international law would allow for another Islamic terror State to flourish in the West Bank same as Israel got when she unilaterally left Gaza.”

        So what? You don’t have a problem with a zionist terror state flourishes in occupied Palestine. Good for the goose…

  15. miriam6
    miriam6
    August 14, 2013, 12:10 am

    [email protected]:

    See for example: “Perpetrators of deadly attack on IDF base among those slated for release”

    Hostage , your link to J Post has proven worthless if the list of Palestinian prisoners who HAVE been released according to The Times of Israel is true.

    The two Ighbariyehs’ and Jabarin mentioned on your link are NOT on the list of prisoners released .

    Only FOUR at a stretch out of the 26 could be described as combatant POWs given that they killed soldiers or attempted to kill soldiers.

    About three were jailed for killing so-called collaborators’ – and of course no-one has any way of knowing that those individuals killed were collaborators.

    Those So- called collaborators were denied the right of free and fair trials.

    At least the now released prisoners were given fair trials .

    Explain to me exactly how the murder of elderly Israeli civilians can be described as
    the activities of so – called would- be POWs?

    How can the murder of a French tourist visiting Bethlehem be described as an appropriate military target?

    Many of those murdered were just ordinary non- combatant folks going about their daily business..

    Your comment strikes me as nothing more than a desire to see the appeasement of nihilistic violence..

    Salah Mugdad: Aged 47, a Fatah activist from Kfar Bracha in Samaria in the West Bank. On June 14, 1993, he murdered Israel Tenenbaum, a 72 year old guard at the Sirens Hotel in Netanya. Sentenced to life imprisonment, which was then commuted to a 32-year sentence.

    Khaled Asakreh: Aged 41, a Fatah activist from Rafida, a village in the West Bank. On April 29, 1991, he murdered Annie Ley, a French tourist in Bethlehem. Sentenced to life imprisonment.

    A plasterer by trade, Rotenberg , 67 was attacked by Abu Musa and an accomplice at a construction site where all three men worked in March 1994. He sustained repeated blows to the neck with axes. His wounds induced a coma, and he died two days after the attack.

    Rotenberg wasn’t the oldest victim of the prisoners who made it onto the list Sunday

    Fatah member Ra’ai Ibrahim Salam Ali : Aged 56, a Fatah activist from the Gaza Strip. On January 21, 1994, he murdered Morris Eizenstat in Kfar Saba. Sentenced to life imprisonment. was jailed in 1994 for the murder of 79-year-old Moris Eisenstatt. Eisenstatt was killed with ax blows to the head while he sat on a public Kfar Saba bench reading a book.

    Mohemed Sawalha: Aged 40, a Fatah activist from the village of Azmut in West Bank. On December 2, 1990, he took part in a stabbing on a bus in Ramat Gan, in which Baruch Heisler was murdered and three other passengers were injured. Sentenced to life.

    Borhan Sabiah: Aged 42, a Fatah activist from Rai, a village in the West Bank. He was convicted of murdering six suspected collaborators. Sentenced to six life imprisonments

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/all-26-palestinians-freed-were-involved-in-killing-israelis

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      August 15, 2013, 1:59 pm

      @Miriam 104 prisoners have been vetted for release, not just the 26 released on the eve of the talks.

      The JPost article doesn’t say the brothers are in the first batch, only that they are on the list of prisoners that have been vetted:

      Four Israeli-Arab prisoners – responsible for an attack on an IDF base in which four soldiers were killed and five others injured – will, according to Palestinian sources, be released as part of the recent decision made by Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.

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