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Netanyahu says Rouhani denies the Holocaust. But he doesn’t

Israel/Palestine

The other day Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu tweeted that Iranian President Hassan Rouhani denies the Holocaust.

Just last week, , like Ahmadinejad before him, refused to recognize the as an historical fact

But Rouhani specifically acknowledges the Holocaust, per CNN, covering the president’s interview with Christiane Amanpour:

Iran’s new president has acknowledged the Holocaust, furthering the stark contrast between himself and his predecessor.

“Any crime that happens in history against humanity, including the crime the Nazis committed towards the Jews as well as non-Jews, was reprehensible and condemnable,” President Hassan Rouhani said in an interview with CNN’s Christiane Amanpour.

“Whatever criminality they committed against the Jews we condemn. The taking of human life is contemptible. It makes no difference whether that life is a Jewish life, Christian or Muslim.”

He followed with an apparent reference to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, saying it’s not acceptable to “usurp the land of another group and occupy it.” He called for “an even-handed discussion.”

NBC’s Andrea Mitchell also reports similar statements from Rouhani yesterday:

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani repudiated his predecessor’s Holocaust denials on Wednesday, saying the Nazis “committed a crime against Jews” but that the question of “scale” should be left to historians.

“The Nazis carried out a massacre that cannot be denied, especially against the Jewish people,” he said in an informal conversation with a small group of U.S. reporters, including NBC News.

The Emergency Committee for Israel has also stated that Rouhani is a Holocaust denier. Shouldn’t it retract this statement?

The Anti-Defamation League’s Abe Foxman issued a statement accepting Rouhani’s acknowledgement of the Holocaust but going on to say he was creating a false equivalence between Jewish and Palestinian suffering.

 

“But in practically the same breath President Rouhani engaged in the more subtle form of Holocaust revisionism, minimizing it by accusing the Jewish survivors of taking vengeance on the Palestinians in fulfilling their 2,000-year-old dream of returning to their homeland, Israel. This was a gratuitous swipe at the survivors.

 

“There is no moral equivalency between the slaughter of 6 million Jews and millions of other innocent men, women and children in the Nazi gas chambers and the plight of the Palestinian people living in the West Bank and Gaza. The Iranians, apparently, are willing to come only so far.”

This is a form of Nakba denial. Though he mentions the Palestinian “plight,” Foxman completely ignores what Rouhani meant by saying Israel usurps others’ lands: the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians expelled from their lands and homes so that Israel could establish a majority-Jewish state. It’s a wonder that Foxman is the go-to guy for the media on talking points on anti discrimination when he denies these crimes, and does so as a partisan for Israel.

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112 Responses

  1. seafoid
    seafoid
    September 26, 2013, 10:53 am

    “There is no moral equivalency between the slaughter of 6 million Jews and millions of other innocent men, women and children in the Nazi gas chambers and the plight of the Palestinian people living in the West Bank and Gaza.”

    Bullshit. Apartheid sucks and the fact that Jews run it under the cover of Holocaust sympathy makes it suck even more.

    Foxman’s warning to the Ukrainian Prime Minister not to put the mass murder of Ukrainians by Stalin in the 1930s on a par with the Shoah showed what a sleazebag he is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm8-yTBs964
    36 minutes

    • Krauss
      Krauss
      September 26, 2013, 10:56 am

      The Ukrainainian Holocaust was something I didn’t even know about until a few months ago. And it’s absolutely shocking and disgusting when you look at how its been suppressed, often by the overt efforts of Jewish bigots like Foxman who seem to think Jewish suffering is ‘unquie’ and ‘more equal than others’.

      A life is a life, and any attempt to try to make some lives more inherently valuable than others based on bloodlines and ethnicity is revolting and, frankly, racist.

    • miriam6
      miriam6
      September 26, 2013, 11:17 am

      [email protected];

      Those six million Jewish people are DEAD.

      The Palestinians – although under military occupation – are ALIVE.

      That is the BIG difference.

      And where there is life there is hope.

      • Chu
        Chu
        September 26, 2013, 11:22 am

        Thanks for offering us hope. wow, that was inspired trolling rarely seen.

      • Justpassingby
        Justpassingby
        September 26, 2013, 11:35 am

        @miriam6

        For palestinians 60 years have shown there is no hope but that is maybe too much for pro israel “miriam6” to understand.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2013, 11:50 am

        “The Palestinians – although under military occupation – are ALIVE.”

        except for all the ones who’ve been killed by the israelis.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 26, 2013, 1:10 pm

        Tell me.

        Have the Israelis murdered millions of Palestinians on what amounted to a sort of industrial conveyor belt?

        No.

        Many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli’s but that doesn’t amount to genocide.

      • annie
        annie
        September 26, 2013, 1:29 pm

        i think you are missing the point:

        “There is no moral equivalency between the slaughter of 6 million Jews and millions of other innocent men, women and children in the Nazi gas chambers and the plight of the Palestinian people living in the West Bank and Gaza. The Iranians, apparently, are willing to come only so far.”

        his phrasing is the equivalence of claiming half the amount of people died in the holocaust, with no acknowledgement hitler set out to kill the jews. and no mention of the fate of people exposed to that crime. would that be acceptable to you?

        would it? there is NO mention here of people being expelled from their land! no mention or acknowledgement of the diaspora? nothing. and this is in response to scrutinizing acknowledgement of the holocaust by someone who had no relation to it what so ever, decades later?

        where is the equivalency in terms of acknowledgement of DENIAL.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        September 26, 2013, 1:49 pm

        Have the Israelis murdered millions of Palestinians on what amounted to a sort of industrial conveyor belt?

        No.

        Well it wasn’t for lack of trying that the three quarters of a million Palestinians driven from their homes in 1948 didn’t die from exposure the following winter. Israel surely didn’t step-up and supply them with shelter or food. It was too busy demolishing their villages and planting land mines in the debris.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2013, 3:01 pm

        “Have the Israelis murdered millions of Palestinians on what amounted to a sort of industrial conveyor belt?”

        What does that matter? Is it in your mind only morally reprehensible when the killing is done in the manner the Nazis did, and not in the manner the israelis did it? Or do you deny that the Israelis have murdered a whole lot of innocent Palestinians in their quest to destroy the Palestinian nation and steal their land?

        “Many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli’s but that doesn’t amount to genocide.”

        No one says it does. But you stated a flat out lie, that Palestinians have not been killed. THAT is exactly the kind of horseshit that seafoid is talking about: the notion that there is a moral heirarchy that permits the Jews to trump the rights of the Palestinians by saying that the Jews’ Holocaust is worse than the Palestinians’ Nakba.

        The fact that a horrific crime was committed against the Jews by the Nazis does not, in one iota, reduce the moral imperative to denounce the crimes committed against the Palestinians.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 26, 2013, 3:47 pm

        “Have the Israelis murdered millions of Palestinians on what amounted to a sort of industrial conveyor belt?”

        No. They do torture to a very high standard however. And will use white phosphorous. And they did take all the German reparations money and spend it on infrastructure and lawyers. And there are far too many Shoah survivors living below the poverty line in poor health in the Jewish Disneyland right now.

        The notion that Zionism gives a damn about anyone, even vulnerable Jews, is nuts.

      • dbroncos
        dbroncos
        September 26, 2013, 11:27 pm

        @miriam6

        “Many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli’s but that doesn’t amount to genocide.”

        No?

        1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

      • braciole
        braciole
        September 27, 2013, 1:09 am

        The Israelis have adopted a policy of “slow genocide” towards the Palestinians – kill enough of them to terrify as many Palestinians as possible into leaving Palestine.

        BTW, I have to question Abe Foxman’s historical accuracy – six million Jews did not die in Nazi gas chambers – only about three million Jews died in the gas chambers, the rest (another 3 million) died in conventional concentration camps and the ghettos of eastern Europe from starvation, disease and murder or were murdered in situ following the German invasion of eastern Europe. Perhaps Rouhani is right, it should be left to historians.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 27, 2013, 8:41 am

        @dbroncos:

        Genocide: “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”.

        So, How do you call the acts the Palestinians and Arab countries committed in 1947-9?

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 27, 2013, 8:45 am

        @braciole:

        After years of wars, terrors attacks and war crimes, would you agree that the following is correct?

        The Arabs have adopted a policy of “slow genocide” towards the Israeli Jews – kill enough of them to terrify as many Israeli Jews as possible into leaving Israel”.

      • braciole
        braciole
        September 28, 2013, 4:33 pm

        The Israelis are occupying Palestine by force so the Palestinians have the right to resist and end that occupation using force if necessary. For instance, members of the French Resistance or Soviet partisans killing Germans occupying French or Soviet territory during World War 2 even though it was based on ethnicity was not genocide.

      • RobertB
        RobertB
        September 26, 2013, 12:05 pm

        Click on link below to see Shulamit Aloni with Amy Goodman on DemocracyNow:

        Former Israeli Minister Shulamit Aloni- Anti-Semitic Trick!

        Anti-Semitism and the Holocaust are used as tools to silence those who dare speak out against Zionism and Israel.

      • braciole
        braciole
        September 27, 2013, 9:57 am

        You can perhaps understand Israel using the Holocaust to justify its existence even though it does not justify what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. However, I just came to the conclusion that the biggest abuser of the Holocaust to justify their actions is not the Israelis but “Washington” (aka the American government/national political system) as they also now do with homophobia. I’d also add that the governments of certain western countries also do the same but on a smaller scale and in a very much more subtle way. Please note that I’m not referring to the American public.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 26, 2013, 12:07 pm

        Apartheid won’t bring them back. We know apartheid is morally repugnant because Jews recoil from the word. And if life gives hope why prosecute rape? Give it up, miriam. Justice is for the living.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 26, 2013, 12:11 pm

        >> And where there is life there is hope.

        The perfect rallying call for a 1SS.

      • amigo
        amigo
        September 26, 2013, 12:32 pm

        “And where there is life there is hope” M6

        Not if you are a Palestinian under the Zionist Jackboot who you seem willing to “shine”.

      • pabelmont
        pabelmont
        September 26, 2013, 1:04 pm

        I agree there is a big difference between ALIVE and DEAD. However, if you are thinking in terms of “sameness”, both killing people and stealing the land and property are “illegal”. A policemen enforces all of the law, not only (say) the law against murder. Even one who thinks the holocaust was “the worst crime ever committed, ever, ever, against anyone, anyone” must admit that it is also a crime (or a violation of international law) to settle occupied territories as Israel has done (UNSC 465, ICJ July 2004) and that holding on, as if in perpetuity (also indicated by settlement and road and infrastructure building) to land captured in war and thus “occupied” is a violation of the UN’s rule (to which Israel agreed when it joined the UN) that the acquisition of territory by threat or use of force (war) is illegitimate (UNSC 242).

        So, not the same, but both illegal. Different but similar. If the comparison is one of moral wrongness or degree of awfulness, maybe the Holocaust wins over Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. But if the comparison is as to whether the events in quesetion were legal or illegal, both are illegal.

      • annie
        annie
        September 26, 2013, 1:22 pm

        Those six million Jewish people are DEAD.

        The Palestinians – although under military occupation – are ALIVE.

        thank you for bringing that up miriam. and here lies the hypocrisy. the millions of jews who died of a horrible genocide, along with millions of others, have shrines built for them all over the world, many many hollywood movies and pbs specials, are studied in classrooms and universities all over the world, whole departments focusing on that crime, decades after the fact. clearly it will never ever be forgotten.

        meanwhile we have a people still alive now today in a living hell with a crime going on right now under the noses of the great powers that is being denied and diminished by the very person seeking to be our moral leader under the pretext of teaching us about ‘never again’. ignoring and demeaning the very people suffering now in present day.

        so shouldn’t we let the dead rest in peace and concentrate on today’s crimes, today’s victims? shouldn’t they have priority over those long gone? where’s the hope if foxman is teaching denial ? where’s the hope in never again when we turn our backs and fund this crime against humanity?

        where’s the lesson miriam? a thousand more holocaust museums can’t compete with the live lessons being taught right under our noses, the crime of apartheid being denied. the ongoing nakba.

        life is for the living, so stop the occupation. acknowledge and stop the crime. the nakba lives, the holocaust is a crime of the last century. learn to prioritize.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 26, 2013, 2:20 pm

        millions of jews who died of a horrible genocide…the holocaust is a crime of the last century.

        Well done annie for acknowledging that that is the case.

      • Elisabeth
        Elisabeth
        September 26, 2013, 3:05 pm

        You suggest that Annie would ever deny that?

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2013, 3:21 pm

        “Well done annie for acknowledging that that is the case.”

        WTF? When did annie give any indication that these basic facts were contested by her? Your statement is very insulting. It’s a very backhanded insult.

      • annie
        annie
        September 26, 2013, 3:31 pm

        yeah, it’s miriam being her underhanded insulting self again. what wasn’t entirely clear is it was even more insulting before i added the rest of my quote (the preface)..one of the plus factors of having the power to edit…i can prevent people from misquoting me and manipulating my words.

        seriously these people should grow up and move on. insinuating i am or ever was a holocaust denier is a redundant repulsive gotcha game. and it so cheapens the holocaust by using it as some personal weapon to flog people with. my god, when will it ever end.

        i was tempted to delete her comment but it’s so disgusting i thought people should be able to read it, just to fully grasp the ugliness of this kind of consciousness were dealing with day after day. she should be ashamed.

        thank you woody and elizabeth.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 26, 2013, 3:32 pm

        You are reading an agenda into this which is all in your head..

        I was simply thanking Annie.

        That’s all.

      • annie
        annie
        September 26, 2013, 3:43 pm

        well done for acknowledging? you didn’t thank me for jack sh*t. don’t piss me off.

        meanwhile you’re a coward. you had nothing to say to this, nothing:

        http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/netanyahu-rouhani-holocaust.html/comment-page-1#comment-597039

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2013, 4:32 pm

        “I was simply thanking Annie.”

        Yes. Why the hell would you do that? Thanks are generally an expression of gratitute for being given some advantage or in acknowledgment of a benefit that you receive.

        In what way could you possibly have believed you were advantaged or given a benefit by rather routine statements of undisputed history unless you had some reason to believe that those statements — on a thread about Holocaust denial — had been disbelieved by her in the past or were in some way controversial here???

        Given the history of zionists libeling critics of israel as being antisemitic, implying that annie is or was a holocaust denier or implying that such views are common here is wholly improper and unacceptable.

      • amigo
        amigo
        September 27, 2013, 8:37 am

        You are reading an agenda into this which is all in your head..

        I was simply thanking Annie.

        That’s all. M6.

        b——ks

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero
        September 28, 2013, 7:51 pm

        Miriam

        I see the differences, and I see them mainly as differences in identity.

        There exist lot’s of differences in identities:

        – National identities
        – Religious identities
        – Ethnic identities
        – Class identities
        – Cultural identities
        – Many more

        Oftenly, identities are overlapping. I think, the holocaust victim identity is an important one. The mossad chief, for example, has holocaust on his desk, and I think it’s a true, legitimate and moral identity. But I also think there are many more true, legitimate and moral identities. And, what I think, the big topic for future generations of humanity is to overcome the violent tensions caused by different identities.

        I would like you to take notice of the brilliant (my opinion) speeches of Hassan Rouhani on that topic. See him in the Wapo:

        We must also pay attention to the issue of identity as a key driver of tension in, and beyond, the Middle East. … Without comprehending the role of identity, many issues we all face will remain unresolved.

        And read his UN speech:

        Our world today is replete with fear and hope; fear of war and hostile regional and global relations; fear of deadly confrontation of religious, ethnic and national identities; fear of institutionalization of violence and extremism; fear of poverty and destructive discrimination; fear of decay and destruction of life-sustaining resources; fear of disregard for human dignity and rights; and fear of neglect of morality.

        So, what I would like you and everyone to think about is how to overcome the desastrous effects of identity and turn identity into something more positive as it is today.

        I hope you understand what I’m talking about. Be assured that I’m not hostile to you.

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        September 28, 2013, 7:51 pm

        Annie, this article and the great majority of the comments have been plonked on a rather dubious website (of the H denier variety):
        http://www.pauleisen.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/mondoweiss-debates-holocaust.html

        Is he allowed to do that??

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero
        September 28, 2013, 8:59 pm

        I’ld think Paul Eisen didn’t plomk the article and comments, but rather archived them, so that if – god forbid – something bad with the website “Mondo Weiss” happens, there are available for future generations.

        And, ah yes, I understand, why people, who, like Paul Eisen, call themselves a “holocaust denier” don’t like Mondo Weiss. I think a “debate” is an answer which deniers don’t like at all.

      • annie
        annie
        September 28, 2013, 11:25 pm

        i have no idea bumble. probably not. there’s generally a fair use ethical code among bloggers, i’ve never heard of someone copying a whole thread and comments too.

      • tree
        tree
        September 29, 2013, 6:25 am

        I think a “debate” is an answer which deniers don’t like at all.

        I think you have it backwards. The ones stifling debate are not the “deniers” or the “revisionists”. And even here, the debate is somewhat constrained. Jeffrey Blankfort stepped out side of those constraint lines here and ended up being banned.

      • annie
        annie
        September 29, 2013, 10:52 am

        i don’t think blankfort was banned because he ‘stepped out of constraints’. i think he was likely banned because there are a lot of people who are fascinated with the holocaust and could talk about it non stop. conversations about the holocaust were becoming very frequent and attracting lots and lots of OT discourse and hundreds of comments on a regular basis in thread after thread that had nothing to do with the holocaust, to the degree it probably became a strain on management. and that wasn’t entirely (or likely even primarily) jeffrey’s fault. this is just my hunch, i don’t really know. but mondoweiss is not the format to debate the intricacies of the history of the holocaust day after day after day. this is an activist site and people who think freeing palestine involves unlocking keys around the holocaust should probably take that form of activism elsewhere.

        that said, the zionists love talking about the holocaust and have no problem using it against their adversaries over and over and over and love playing gotcha games with it in the most disgusting way. it’s completely hypocritical the way they want to control the discourse around it and use it as a weapon. right now, with the msm swarming around rouhani and scrutinizing his every word about the holocaust, a situation set up by the interview, it’s not off topic. and rouhani’s words are prescient, it’s not the palestinians fault and nothing about the holocaust justifies ethnically cleansing palestine.

        that’s the conversation zionists don’t want to have and they will fight tooth and nail to shutdown that conversation. they want to use the holocaust as their exclusive weapon. wielding the holocaust like a weapon or a shield ..can be very detrimental.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 29, 2013, 11:35 am

        [email protected];

        It is your MW website that has chosen to beat the whole subject of Rouhani/ Holocaust to death by devoting no less than FOUR thread’s to it.

        Which is quite unnecessary overkill.

        If you don’t want discussion about the Holocaust STOP BRINGING THE SUBJECT UP!

        You like to use it as a stick to beat Zionists with.

        That’s why you have devoted SO many threads to it!

      • annie
        annie
        September 29, 2013, 12:18 pm

        miriam, i think someone made the point already on one of these threads, we didn’t bring it up. when netanyahu tweets rouhani is a holocaust denier, it makes the news. we report the news.

        but thanks so much for helping me make my earlier pt zionists love talking about the holocaust and have no problem using it against their adversaries over and over and over and love playing gotcha games with it in the most disgusting way. it’s completely hypocritical

        speaking of gotcha games, still feigning innocent?

        You like to use it as a stick to beat Zionists with.

        well, right now i’m just using your hypocrisy, not the holocaust itself. it’s a principle in tai chi, using your opponents force as a weapon against them.

        quite unnecessary overkill

        the overkill was trying to corner and box in rouhani segued into that interview w/’holocaust’ /the mantel of extremist (‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ which of course deserved its own thread!). so if you do not like all this holocaust chatter call up team israel and tell them to STFU fear mongering and brainwashing regarding what’s in store for them if iran has nuclear energy.

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        September 29, 2013, 12:18 pm

        Annie, those were points well stated about the holocaust conversation. to take the liberty of reiterating:

        Just because something terrible happened to the jews in the middle of last century – or centuries past – does not in any way justify visiting the atrocities of killing and dispossession upon the Palestinians. By a similar token, just because some of the zionist leadership was so zealously committed to colonizing a piece of land in the Middle east that they callously and heartlessly abetted the fate that has befallen certain jewish communities in Europe, does not in itself say that most of those who ended up in Israel were callous by nature. The really really bad things committed by cynical zealots were bad because zealotry can make one blind and deaf to human suffering. Isn’t that how it’s always been?

        I also tend to agree that, be it as it may, t discussions about how nasty X Y, or Z were in the last century fail to advance the Palestinian cause one iota. What those discussions did however shine light on was that the zionist enterprise had a a partly rotten core – masquerading as idealism – from its very inception, going back to Herzl and the rest of the colonialist schemers that followed. Was it all rotten? probably not if we look at it in the context of the times, where Algeria also happened, and borders were drawn willy-nilly in Africa and the Middle east, and regimes were propped up and deposed and to heck with the people, and the Phillipines happened, and South America and all the rest. It is not difficult to look back to early-to-middle 20th century and find numerous examples of atrocious behavior by the Empires of the day, and their willing servants. So it’s not surprising that the rotten core of Empire is also what Zionism was weaned on. Whether all that contributed to what zionism is now is again, hard to say. Modern israel is its own beast these days, drunk on its power, as blind as an appendage of the American Empire can be. Ultimately its fortunes will depend on how the Empire fares far more than on its own beginnings, as tainted as some of those were.

        Unfortunately all the knowledge of all the history of the world cannot help the Palestinians overthrow the yolk of their oppressors now. The only thing that history does teach – rather ably – is that what goes around comes around, though rarely as fast or as justly as we would like to see. I happen to believe that time is on the Palestinians’ side because of this one lesson of history. Will it be enough time or too much none of us know at this moment.

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 29, 2013, 12:26 pm

        “That’s why you have devoted SO many threads to it!”

        Didn’t want to quote the whole thing, but that’s some pretty impressive trolling. The Holocaust isn’t being brought up–the use of the Holocaust as way of attacking Rouhani is what was brought up by this website. The people using the Holocaust as a stick are Rouhani’s attackers.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 29, 2013, 12:41 pm

        [email protected];

        meanwhile we have a people still alive now today in a living hell with a crime going on right now under the noses of the great powers that is being denied and diminished by the very person seeking to be our moral leader under the pretext of teaching us about ‘never again’. ignoring and demeaning the very people suffering now in present day.

        Why use the phrase ‘ never again’ ?

        Did you mean to imply that there are moral lessons to be learnt from the Holocaust?

        If that’s what you intended then YOU are guilty of using the Holocaust as a stick to beat folks with.

        All this ‘ never again ‘nonsense is utterly naïve b.s.

        The only lessons to be learnt from the Holocaust are that it is a condemnation of those politics of Capitalist imperialist Empire and the reality of Empire and racial hierarchy OF THE TIME!

      • annie
        annie
        September 29, 2013, 12:55 pm

        What those discussions did however shine light on was that the zionist enterprise had a a partly rotten core – masquerading as idealism – from its very inception, going back to Herzl and the rest of the colonialist schemers that followed.

        well, the holocaust didn’t happen at the very inception of zionism and i do not personally think people obsessed with historical detail of the holocaust are primarily interested in zionisms very inception. one can learn all one has to know about rotten core of zionism by just looking at their actions in the present day. it’s very clear there’s a rotten core determined to conquer/colonize all the land, and that’s been there from the beginning.

        By a similar token, just because some of the zionist leadership was so zealously committed to colonizing a piece of land in the Middle east that they callously and heartlessly abetted the fate that has befallen certain jewish communities in Europe, does not in itself say that most of those who ended up in Israel were callous by nature. The really really bad things committed by cynical zealots were bad because zealotry can make one blind and deaf to human suffering. Isn’t that how it’s always been?

        i am pretty sure that’s the part of the discussion we’re not interested in delving into here. i’d advise writing phil and adam for a further explanation. it never stops there, it gets more and more detailed and definitely over my head and it attracts a lot of people. i’m just saying that for people who’d like the conversation to zero in on this, in case you’re wondering why your comments may not be cleared.

      • annie
        annie
        September 29, 2013, 1:04 pm

        miriam 12:41 pm , try scrolling up and reading the msm blockquotes and the topic of the post. again, we didn’t bring this up. it was out there in the news. and the person i was referencing was (obviously) abe foxman, and perhaps you are not aware he wrote a book titled (hold your breath) never again! http://www.amazon.com/Never-Again-Abraham-Foxman/dp/B000H2MURC (forward by elie weisel, another nakba denier)

        so my point stands: the very person seeking to be our moral leader under the pretext of teaching us about ‘never again’. ignoring and demeaning the very people suffering now in present day.

        what he said was nakba denial. , and hell yes i will use his own words against him when he attempts to bludgeon his way thru life on the pretense of being a moral authority of what is and is not racism and the meaning of denial. plus, the book is about ‘the new anti semitism’ ie: criticism of israel/anti zionsim), so he’s writing a whole book highjacking the term ‘never again’ to privilege zionism, and he’s doing it with the person who coined the term. iow, it’s fair game, if you can’t take heat, get out of the fire.

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        September 29, 2013, 1:36 pm

        Annie: “i am pretty sure that’s the part of the discussion we’re not interested in delving into here.”

        Obviously I agree, which is why I kept my own comments kind of abstract. I know you are getting lots of comments we never get to see (thanks god), and it is not my intent to in any way invite those.

        To explain, I do have an interest in the psychology of zealotry, and definitely not just in eg, the extreme nationalist ethnic context. Zealotry, in its many variants (religious, political, etc) is like a virus that’s endemic to human nature, it’d seem. Dormant most of the time, it can periodically break out in a full blown ravaging disease. Human history is full of such examples. Alas, this is clearly not the thread to discuss such fascinating issues, though the time may yet come.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        September 29, 2013, 1:55 pm

        The argument that the dire events of WW2 substantially changed the rights and wrongs affecting Palestine cannot be correct, since it assumes that the Palestinians had rights which lapsed because of anti-Jewish crimes: there can hardly be a worse or more paradoxical reason for violating rights than that other violations have occurred. Any Palestinian individuals who were guilty of participation in war crimes deserved individual punishment but that would not substantially change the whole structure of rights or create massive disfranchisement. If there is an even worse argument it is that the structure of rights was changed because Jewish people around the world needed an ‘insurance policy’: that is abrogating some rights not because of actual crimes but of crimes whose commitment is feared, something has not happened.
        None of this disproves claims that the Palestinians had no rights in any event, or that any rights they might have had are overcome by the hereditary, impossible to share, rights of Jewish people based on ancient history or interpretations thereof. Or shared only according to the grace and generosity of the true heirs.

      • Keith
        Keith
        September 29, 2013, 2:22 pm

        DANAA- “Ultimately its fortunes will depend on how the Empire fares far more than on its own beginnings, as tainted as some of those were.”

        Very insightful observation, and one which begs the question of what planning Israel has done in regards to relative changes in the global power structure. For example, is the new corporate/financial empire Israel friendly? Also, Israel and the Lobby seem to prefer the security of US global dominance, and appear to want to preserve it (re: Project for a New American Century, etc). And while some Mondoweissers feel that Israel detracts from imperial effectiveness, I doubt that the Zionists feel the same or are consciously trying to undercut American hegemony. In fact, one more reason to oppose Zionism is that the Zionists appear to be staunch defenders of empire for Israel’s sake.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        September 29, 2013, 4:49 pm

        All this ‘ never again ‘nonsense is utterly naïve b.s.

        The only lessons to be learnt from the Holocaust are that it is a condemnation of those politics of Capitalist imperialist Empire and the reality of Empire and racial hierarchy OF THE TIME!

        No, the world learned several lessons and outlawed the processes employed by the fascist regimes in Europe, Africa, and Asia and made them crimes which are not subject to any statutory limitations, i.e. “preventive” wars of aggression, military occupation combined with forced eviction of the indigenous population; colonization and annexation; and the resulting regimes of apartheid or genocide.

        It’s no accident that 19th and 20th century Zionism used all of those totalitarian policies and practices that were employed by the 2nd Reich and the Afrikaners against the Herero people of the German colony of Namibia, by the 3rd Reich against the peoples of Europe, by the Japanese in Manchuria, and the Italians in Ethiopia.

        But it is the only example of a so-called western, civilized country that is trying to revive and legitimize all of those newly minted post WWII international crimes. It alone has deliberately continued to employ those prohibited policies and practices against its own neighbors.

        We all know today that it is Israel which employs the same “disputed territory” mantra as the fascists to claim regions outside the UN partition lines.

        It always deployed that argument to pursue territorial aggrandizement against regions in neighboring UN member states in which Jews were either non-existent altogether or constituted a vanishingly small percentage of the population. At the same time Israel and its allies accused the victims of aggression:

        At the same time, it is impossible to disregard a strange theory advanced here by the representative of Syria and supported, if I am not mistaken, by the representative of France. The substance of that theory is that inasmuch as the territory and frontiers of the State of Israel and its right of existence are contested by some of its neighbor States, the State of Israel does not exist as a sovereign State and cannot be recognized as such. That theory is not only strange but also dangerous. It is reminiscent of the “theories” which, as we all know, were once upon a time preached by the fascist aggressors who claimed world mastery. According to those theories, it was enough for Hitlerite Germany to cast doubt on the existence of one of its neighbor States for that State to cease to exist, and for its territory to be seized and absorbed into the territory of Hitlerite Germany. Such claims were made by the fascist aggressors in respect of Austria, Czechoslovakia and a number of other European countries, including France. In that connection, all kinds of expansionist theories were advanced concerning the inferiority of the people of certain countries, and were used as justification for seizing those countries.

        — Mr. Yakov A. Malik, the 386th meeting of the UN Security Council, S/PV.386, 17 December 1948, pages 12-13 link to un.org

        Of course that’s what Israel did to the West Bank, Gaza, the entire City of Jerusalem, the Sinai, the Shebaa farms, the Golan Heights, & etc.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 29, 2013, 6:25 pm

        >> If you don’t want discussion about the Holocaust STOP BRINGING THE SUBJECT UP!
        >> You like to use it as a stick to beat Zionists with.

        Zio-supremacists have been beating the world to death with it for over 60 years. Please ask them to stop bringing it up.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        September 29, 2013, 9:23 pm

        It is your MW website that has chosen to beat the whole subject of Rouhani/ Holocaust to death by devoting no less than FOUR thread’s to it.

        Nope, I pointed out before that the mainstream and Jewish press are all over the story of the Q&A with Iranian leaders Ahmadinejad , Rohani, and Zarif on the subject of the Holocaust. Those interviews and Rohani’s so-called charm offensive are still front page news in Israel and the US today:

        *Iran’s Holocaust-denial trickery may point to nuclear duplicity as well
        Despite the media’s uncritical embrace, Iranian leaders Rohani and Zarif are spouting the same vile anti-Semitic bile as their uncouth predecessors.
        http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.549603
        * Iranian foreign minister: Israel has an arsenal of 200 nuclear warheads: In interview with ABC, Zarif says Holocaust “is not a myth.”
        http://www.jpost.com/Iranian-Threat/News/Iranian-foreign-minister-Israel-has-an-arsenal-of-200-nuclear-warheads-327408
        *Rouhani on Holocaust: Size Doesn’t Matter
        http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/rouhani-on-holocaust-size-doesnt-matter/2013/09/28/

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 30, 2013, 3:45 pm

        @Danaa: I just saw your comment you wrote several days ago in which you analyze my character (MY1) and claim without doubt that I am no more than Hasbara. I am an Israeli like you and want peace and justice with the Palestinians no less than you. The fact that I hold different views than your views doesn’t allow you to put your self in the “good” side and others, that don’t agree with you, on the other side. I don’t know you personally and don’t care who you are, so don’t try to make me virtual person with a mask of Kurd Mizrahi, work as a seller. I don’t need masks or virtual images to say my truth as you say your truth. Also, stop to analyze any comment I write, count my grammar mistakes and conclude there are many MY1 since there is a difference in the number of the mistakes. I would appreciate if you relate to the content of the things I write here in MW, if they interest you, and not to technical and unimportant things.

      • American
        American
        September 26, 2013, 1:23 pm

        miriam6 says:
        September 26, 2013 at 11:17 am

        [email protected];

        Those six million Jewish people are DEAD.
        The Palestinians – although under military occupation – are ALIVE.

        That is the BIG difference.”>>>>>>>>

        No— the BIG difference is this:
        The Palestines didnt kill the Jews.
        The US didnt kill the Jews.
        France, Britian, Europe, Asia, SA, Arabia, no one in the universe killed the Jews, only the Nazis killed the Jews.

        And the Nazis are all DEAD.

        Contrary to what the Holocaust Industry claims, No Allies, No Countries, No One involved in WWII had any OBLIGATION to put the Jews above saving their own people and their own countries.
        Furthermore, the plans that were looked at by the US concluded there was NO Way to save the Jews already in the camps.

        No one living today owes this generation of Jews anything. Quite the contrary —-You in fact owe the world for the extraordinary help it gave to the Jews after WWII.
        We could have done nothing more for you then we did for any other displaced, victims of WWII — and looking at the ingratitude, deception, lying, aggression, unlimited greed, the world’s and particulary the US’s generosity has resulted in in Israel and Zionism –we shouldnt have.

        THIS is what the TRUTH is and it is what the world increasingly understands and why your Holocuast excuse is being rejected for what it is–an Excuse.

        You want to survive? Then you get down on your knees to the Palestines and confess what you did and ask how you can rectify the wrongs you committed and find a compromise that allows Jews to still live in Israel or Palestine. Then you get the hell out of every other country’s business, governments and pocketbooks. And then you shut up and thank God for everyone in the world and the allies that helped defeat Hitler because that is what saved the rest of the Jews and the only reason you exist today.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 26, 2013, 8:38 pm

        Well said, American.

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero
        September 27, 2013, 2:29 am

        American

        Contrary to what the Holocaust Industry claims, No Allies, No Countries, No One involved in WWII had any OBLIGATION to put the Jews above saving their own people and their own countries.

        I beg to differ. In my opinion the whole world had a moral obligation to help to minimize the human desaster of the war and the holocaust. So, when it is claimed that other countries had an obligation and did nothing to save the jews than I feel that moral argument is largely true.

        However, there exists another problem with this narrative of the Holocaust Industry. When the Zionist movement makes this claim, there exists a point of that pointing with one finger on another person mean three finger point to yourself.

        If you don’t understand what I’m talking about, read, for example, some of the words from Sefer Min Hametzar by Rabbi Michael Ber Weismandel to understand the point of one of the contradictions in this Zionist narrative:

        After I accustomed myself to the peculiar writing, I trembled when I realized the import of RAK B’DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ. But many weeks passed, and I was still confounded by the meaning of ATEM TAJLU. Until one day, it struck me. ATEM TAJIU meant “You escape”, for the word “tiyul” (walking trip) was used by them as a euphemistic code for “escape”. They meant to say – you fifteen or twenty “party members”, escape from Czechoslovakia and save your hides. The price of Eretz Yisroel is the blood of the men and women, hoary sages, and babes in arms, – but not YOUR blood! Let us not spoil this plan by giving the Axis powers money to save Jewish lives. But for you, comrades, I have enclosed carfare for your escape. What a nightmare! The Zionist agent “diplomat” comes to Czechoslovakia and says ‘Now is a very critical time. But comparatively speaking, it is not at all critical for you trapped Jews. For there is an emergency of far greater proportions; namely, BINYAN HA-ARETZ (the prize of Modinat Yisrael). Shed your blood cheerfully, for your blood is cheap. But for your blood, the Land (of Israel) will be ours! ( Source with a bit more context)

        Also, up to this day, I found no convincing answers by the the Holocaust Industry of the Zionist movement to the famous ten questions from Rabbi Weismandel:

        http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_documents/tenquestions.cfm

        So, after reading Rabbi Weismandel, I find the Zionist narrative that they need Israel to protect jews from another holocaust becuase nobody helped the jews in the time of the holocaust a bit of hypocritical, to say the least.

        That’s not the only problem in the zionist narrative on the holocaust. Though I’m not a historian to evaluate them, as far as I see it, I think, the anti-zionist orthodox jewish organizations have a lot more interesting documents punching big holes in the zionist narrative on topics like Zionist behaviour in the era of the Nazis and the holocaust.

      • MRW
        MRW
        September 28, 2013, 9:20 pm

        I agree, RoHa. Well said, American.

      • American
        American
        September 29, 2013, 12:42 pm

        Bandolero says:
        September 27, 2013 at 2:29 am

        American

        Contrary to what the Holocaust Industry claims, No Allies, No Countries, No One involved in WWII had any OBLIGATION to put the Jews above saving their own people and their own countries.///

        I beg to differ. In my opinion the whole world had a moral obligation to help to minimize the human desaster of the war and the holocaust. So, when it is claimed that other countries had an obligation and did nothing to save the jews than I feel that moral argument is largely true.>>>

        Bandolero, I am not meaning to imply that the human world does not have any obligations to all the rest, all parts of the human world.

        What I was saying is in the conditions, the war time conditions that existed, what would have been the US’s or the UK’s *first obligation*—to their own countries and countrymen? To defeating Hitler for that purpose?
        I think so.
        “If’ you were in some situtation where you only had two life jackets to throw to the drowning–who would you throw them to, your own wife and child, or let them drown and throw them to someone else?

        But that ‘reality” isn’t even my major objection to this whole blame game and ‘moral condemming’ of the world for not saving the Jews.
        My objection to it is that there *was no magic rabbit in the hat* the allies or anyone could pull out to save them. All kinds of plans were looked at—so saying the world *didnt care or try* is a lie—but they were all rejected because..1) it would kill more Jews than save them as in bombing the camps 2) or couldnt be done militarily.

        The Jews were trapped and there was *nothing* the allies could do to get them out. The blamers can rant on, the idealist can continue to believe in magic and insist there was way –but there wasnt.
        If there had been a way it would have been done. If there had been a way to rescue POWs of Japan that would have been done also. If the Russians could have gotten their POWs out of Germany they would have done that also.
        This was a world war, it was not a magic act, not all things were possible.

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero
        September 29, 2013, 1:45 pm

        American

        If’ you were in some situtation where you only had two life jackets to throw to the drowning–who would you throw them to, your own wife and child, or let them drown and throw them to someone else?

        That’s my point. In the various stages of history there are many decisions to be taken, it’s not a simple either or as in the two life jackets example. And, of course, in hindsight, it’s always possible to say “it could have been done more.” For example, in hindsight one may ask if it was neccessary for the allies to totally occupy Germany to defeat Hitler. Maybe it would have been possible to strike a truce deal in 1944 and thereby save the life of millions of people of all nations, among them many allied soldiers and scores of jews. I won’t say something like this would have been a good and moral decision, but I would leave questions like these to a debate of historians.

        And I believe of course it would have been possible for almost everyone to try harder to save more jews from the German crime. Oftenly it was a question of priorities. And one of those entities who may have been able to try harder to save more jews where some major zionist organisations which at the time of the holocaust were very busy creating the state of Israel.

        See for example the 8th question of Rabbi Weismandel I mentioned above: ‘IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation “Only to Palestine!”‘ to get deeper into failed historic chances to save more jews if you are interested.

      • talknic
        talknic
        September 26, 2013, 1:52 pm

        miriam6 “Those six million Jewish people are DEAD”

        Yes and the UN adopted laws, a charter and conventions in large part because of the fate that befell our fellows under the Nazis.

        Ironically the Jewish state is in breach of International Law, the UN Charter and Conventions it is obliged to uphold. Quite bizarre!

        “The Palestinians – although under military occupation – are ALIVE”

        Many are dead because Israel has breached its aforementioned legal obligations as the Occupying Power. Those alive are dispossessed and/or watching as Israel illegally acquires more and more non-Israeli territory, dispossessing more and more non-Jews from NON-Israeli territory.

        That is the BIG difference.

        “And where there is life there is hope”

        Indeed. I hope Israel comes to its senses and gets the h*ll out of non-Israeli territory and begins at long last to adhere to its legal obligations and ONLY proclaimed and legally recognized borders “within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947” http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

    • Empiricon
      Empiricon
      September 26, 2013, 12:32 pm

      Foxman’s criticism/semi-denial of the Ukranian holocaust (notice the small “h”) was necessary in his world because Zionism rests entirely on the moral copyright claim of The Holocaust (TM) as something unique in history and exclusive to the Jewish people. Maintenance of special victim status is mission critical to justifying the criminal conspiracy in Palestine. As a Gentile, I was also saddened — and enlightened — to find, in my attendance of bar/bat mitzvah services for friends’ children, that uplifting victimhood is a central tenent in much of American Judaism.

    • American
      American
      September 26, 2013, 2:10 pm

      “”There is no moral equivalency between the slaughter of 6 million Jews and millions of other innocent men, women and children in the Nazi gas chambers and the plight of the Palestinian people living in the West Bank and Gaza.””

      Yea well, we can play that game. And this should be our reply:

      There is no moral equivalency between the 70 million, inclusive of 40 t0 50 civilians who lost their lives, also inclusive of 13 to 20 million of those dying from war-related disease and famine, also inclusive of 5 million deaths of prisoners of war during captivity and the 6 million Jews killed.

      And NO, it doesnt matter that Jews were killed for ‘who they were’, EVERYONE killed was killed for ‘Who They Were’—–for being Enemies and Citizens in Enemy states.

      War is hell, said Sherman.

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        September 27, 2013, 2:58 pm

        Isn’t this a form of Holocaust denial ?

      • annie
        annie
        September 28, 2013, 1:10 am

        so you do think foxman was engaging in nakba denial.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        September 28, 2013, 1:31 am

        Isn’t this a form of Holocaust denial ?

        If you have to ask, then it probably isn’t. It doesn’t deny that 6 million Jews were killed. It doesn’t condone the fact that they and many others were killed in any way, and Sherman certainly was NOT trivializing war by explaining that “There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all Hell.”

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        September 28, 2013, 1:38 am

        so you do think foxman was engaging in nakba denial.

        There are better examples of Foxman deliberately doing that, e.g. Negating the Nakba Narrative
        http://archive.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Israel/NYSun_053008.htm

      • annie
        annie
        September 28, 2013, 7:24 pm

        unbelievable hostage:

        The tragic consequences of these natural disasters are indeed a catastrophe for their victims. Only those human beings who are cruel or indifferent could ignore such suffering. In invoking nakba, the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters want the world to believe that a Jewish tsunami or a Jewish cyclone is the root cause of Palestinian suffering.

        this was no ‘jewish natural disaster’? it was much worse than that.

  2. Krauss
    Krauss
    September 26, 2013, 10:53 am

    Holocaust denial apparently has some traction inside Iran.
    Now the editor of their official news agency says that CNN mistranslated him:
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4433602,00.html

    The key detail in the story was that the translator was picked by the Iranians, so it’s likely that Rouhani does indeed not endorse Holocaust denial but that there’s ample room for bigots who do in the Iranian discourse back home, which is why he wanted to avoid getting embroiled in the controversy in the first place.

    He seems to have understood that to remain passive in such questions would undermine Iran’s ability to project itself as turning a new page and took the plunge, but it’s also important to remember that significant parts of the establishment still do not want to admit the Holocaust happened. This speaks well of Rouhani, but it also casts doubt on how moderate the rest of the leadership is, and how well he would be able to push through a major change of direction. I’d say he’s probably a lot like Rabin. He’s not as liberal as many seem to think, but he is still evolving. But like Rabin his domestic contemporaries could be his undoing. I don’t think it’ll go as far as assassination, of course.

    • braciole
      braciole
      September 27, 2013, 1:22 am

      It’s fairly common behaviour in the Middle East – one statement for the domestic market and a different one for the international market. Just about every ruler in the Middle East except for perhaps Assad and Rouhani is a rabid anti-Semite though you would never know that from reading western MSM or their statements to the MSM.

      • just
        just
        September 27, 2013, 2:59 am

        I do not believe that “Just about every ruler in the Middle East except for perhaps Assad and Rouhani is a rabid anti-Semite”.

        Nope. They might be anti- Zionist, and for good reason. .The anti- Semitism card has been played for too long. It does not ‘work’ anymore.

      • braciole
        braciole
        September 27, 2013, 10:13 am

        Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak were both rabid anti-Semites yet Israel was prepared to do business with them and even persuade Washington to support them. Most of the GCC despots are anti-Semites although they are carefully what is published in the west about their beliefs. How have the GCC despots suffered at the hands of the Israelis? What have they ever done for the Palestinians beyond Qatar funding Hamas? Most of the absolute monarchs in the Arab world will prostrate themselves before the Americans and their local enforcer, Israel, to ensure the survival of their despotic regimes but that doesn’t mean they’re not anti-Semites.

      • gamal
        gamal
        September 27, 2013, 8:40 pm

        “Most of the GCC despots are anti-Semites” how come its only most, but

        “Most of the absolute monarchs in the Arab world will prostrate themselves before the Americans and their local enforcer, Israel, to ensure the survival of their despotic regimes”

        so their antisemitism is significant why, where do they “privately” give vent to their nasty little prejudice.

        “Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak” really what did they do to Jews, rude at cocktail parties perhaps?

      • Walid
        Walid
        September 29, 2013, 4:02 pm

        “How have the GCC despots suffered at the hands of the Israelis? What have they ever done for the Palestinians beyond Qatar funding Hamas?” (braciole)

        Where do you think those alleged hundreds of millions under Arafat’s control came from? Over the past 60 years, the Gulf countries led by SA contributed hundreds and hundreds of millions to the Palestinian leadership to keep their people away. Qatar always funded all Palestinians that included Hamas of course. Many heavy investments by Qatar in joint projects have been in the works for years on the West Bank. The problem is that the Gulf always approached the Palestinian problem by throwing money at the Palestinians rather than actually backing them in their conflict against the Zionist enterprise.

  3. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    September 26, 2013, 11:01 am

    Well, yes (in my view), these silly people should be publicly shamed for claiming that
    Rouhani is a H-denier, especially if they do not include a reliable quote to show [a] what he said and [b] why the saying of the same constitutes “denial”. DO NOT LET THEM GET AWAY WITHOUT QUOTES!

    Some (many?) of the Holocaust-anti-denial cabal regard ANY SUGGESTION that the truth is not PRECISELY the story that they champion as a variant on DENIAL. If someone foolishly says that “only 5 million Jews perished”, then such an one is likely to be treated as a denier (even if he clearly acknowledges most of the other descriptions of the Holocaust).

    This is a dangerous business, because some nations have made it a CIVIL or CRIMINAL offence to deny the Holocaust. (Scarier still: such laws do not, so far as I know, trouble themselves to say explicitly what is not to be said and/or not to be denied.)

    I’m not sure the Holocaust-anti-deniers ever make a full and complete statement of what the not-ever-ever-to-be-denied “facts” are: it’s almost as if they are saying that THEY ALONE (WHO ALONE?) should be permitted even to discuss the “facts”. Indeed, it is almost as if they are saying that the “facts” of the Holocaust are irrelevant, and secondary (no, not even secondary) to the Holocaust-assertions of the privileged folks who — alone — are allowed (by themselves) to describe the H and/or to condemn alleged instances of “denial”.

    • lysias
      lysias
      September 26, 2013, 11:25 am

      Raul Hilberg favored the 5 million figure, didn’t he?

  4. Citizen
    Citizen
    September 26, 2013, 11:05 am

    Abe’s a slippery old fellow. Thanks for Abe’s statement. “Plight” is nameless, “Nakba” is concrete.

    Side note: Wonder how Kerry’s talk with his Iranian counterpart will go today?

    Will be getting a lot of slyly conflicting statements about whatever transpires, eh?

  5. seafoid
    seafoid
    September 26, 2013, 11:12 am

    Bringing it all back to the Shoah is about controlling the narrative. Israel didn’t kill 6 million so it’s entitled to do as it pleases with the Palestinians.
    And of course the goys will pay for the refugees who are nothing to do with Israel

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.549081

    “On the ground, the Syrian conflict has increased the plight of Palestinian refugees who live in 12 camps in Syria. “Seven are not accessible to us because of fighting,” Grandi said. “More than half of 530,000 refugees in Syria, are displaced inside Syria and I would say 70,000 have left the country. These people are already refugees from before the (Syrian crisis) and they become refugees again.”
    But the agency is not limiting its outreach to Arab nations and Western states, reflecting a change in the field of global humanitarian aid. “After New York, I am going to Brazil. Brazil is becoming an important donor. At this meeting on Thursday we have invited other donors such as Turkey,” he explained adding that roughly 80% of the aid agency’s funding comes from the United States, the European Union, Japan and Australia”

    BTW well done to Rouhani for bringing up the subject of Israel’s nukes and the Non Proliferation Treaty.

  6. Chu
    Chu
    September 26, 2013, 11:33 am

    Zionists are going to use the Holocaust as a shield for Israel’s occupation until it blows back in their face. There’s really no downside to dragging out this worn argument because no one in media or the government will call them on it.

    Zionists may one day realize though that dignity is something Israel will never possess, and it’s reputation will continue to be soiled as it continues it’s occupation and land grabs while snubbing any peace process. The film gatekeepers said it well, in that they may win every war, but lose the larger battle.

  7. Justpassingby
    Justpassingby
    September 26, 2013, 11:34 am

    Why make a post of this non issue, it only benefit Israel.

  8. Bandolero
    Bandolero
    September 26, 2013, 11:56 am

    Phil and Annie

    Rouhani did not deny the holocaust, but he did not say what you quoted from CNN. CNN fabricated parts of what you quoted. Fars News Agency reports what Rouhani really said was:

    “I have said before that I am not a historian and historians should specify, state and explain the aspects of historical events, but generally we fully condemn any kind of crime committed against humanity throughout the history, including the crime committed by the Nazis both against the Jews and non-Jews, the same way that if today any crime is committed against any nation or any religion or any people or any belief, we condemn that crime and genocide. Therefore, what the Nazis did is condemned, (but) the aspects that you talk about, clarification of these aspects is a duty of the historians and researchers, I am not a history scholar.”

    Source:

    http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13920703001316

    I think the discussion about what Rouhani said will be better when it is based on what he actually said and not based on fabrications from CNN.

    • annie
      annie
      September 26, 2013, 1:09 pm

      bandelero, i sent phil the fars and wapo articles early this morn w/cnn’s response, both as a side issue for what i considered the story of the day (below). not sure why he saw them as a non issue and chose not to cover it.

      what stood out for me, and why i sent him the cnn link, was foxman’s disgusting nakba denial. for me, that WAS and IS the story/main theme. hope it didn’t get so buried people ignore it.

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero
        September 26, 2013, 2:13 pm

        Annie

        What’s the bigger news?

        a) Iran changes it’s official position regarding the Nazi genocide against jews
        or
        b) ADL & Co continue their usual hatemongering and Nakba denial?

        Rouhani walks a very fine line in changing Iran’s position regarding the Nazi genocide against jews but from the CNN fabrication it’s not possible to see and understand it.

        Notice:

        CNN said Rouhani said “Whatever criminality they committed against the Jews, we condemn…” – which would mean, he simply followed the Ahmadinejad unspecified “whatever” line. But in fact Rouhani did not say “whatever criminality” but naming the Nazi deeds a crime and genocide thereby really altering Iran’s official position.

        And CNN said Rouhani called the Nazi genocide against jews “Holocaust” but Rouhani did not say that. So it means Iran does want to call the Nazi deeds against jews – and non-jews – a crime and genocide, but Iran does not want to label the Nazi deeds against jews “Holocaust.”

        And what CNN said on Rouhani comparing the Nazi genocide against jews with the occupation of Palestine – a typical Ahmadinejad point and the basis for ADLs comdemnation of Rouhani’s comments – is a complete fabrication of CNN. Rouhani spoke much more diplomatically.

        As I see it Rouhani with his comments walked a very fine line, and he opens ample space for a good discussion, for example on the topics of:

        – the singularity of this European crime
        – of giving the topic of this crime into a debate between historians (instead of making politics and forming identities with a specific interpretation of this crime)

      • annie
        annie
        September 26, 2013, 3:20 pm

        Bandolero, i can’t speak for anyone else. for me, i didn’t see that much difference in what he said vs what was reported he said. i thought he answered the question commendably. wrt “Iran changes it’s official position regarding the Nazi genocide against jews”, i didn’t know Iran had an official position regarding the holocaust.

        maybe i have some mental wall up surrounding the dissection of holocaust discussion. i just don’t understand why, now, it’s in our national interest to prioritize this topic during an interview with a head of state.

        i thought the story was interesting for the attention it garnered in iran, but opening the farsnews links to cnn, what jumped right off the page for me was foxman’s nakba denial (because it was foxman saying it). that’s just me. huge red flag.

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero
        September 26, 2013, 4:37 pm

        Annie

        With Iran’s position regarding the Nazi genocide against jews I mean the position of the Iranian government, ie the presidency. 99% of the western world based their discourse on Iran’s position regarding the holocaust under Ahmadinejad on media distortions and inaccurate quotes. Of course, there was no sensible dialogue or discussion possible in the Western world when the position of the other side – Iran – is not accurately reported.

        Now, with Rouhani, I sense a great openness in the western world on Iran, but I find it pitiful, that discussions over Iran’s position regarding the Nazi genocide against jews is still not accurately reported, but instead based on distorted quotes. I sense a danger that when the discussion is based on distorted quotes it may derail again.

        And, yes, I would find a honest discussion about the zionist Holocaust narrative important. I’m off the opinion that the single dominant Holocaust narrative is a major tool of the zionist power configuration. And I think that a discussion of Iran’S position may lead to the conclusion that their exist some other narratives not to be dismissed up-front.

        See, for example, the Iranian-born scholar Hamid Dabashi telling such a different narrative about the Holocaust:

        It was Aimé Césaire who in his Discourse sur le colonialisme/Discourse on Colonialism (1955) argued that the Jewish Holocaust was not an aberration in European history. Rather, Europeans actually perpetrated similar crimes against humanity on the colonised world at large. With German atrocities during the Holocaust, Europeans tasted a concentrated dose of the structural violence they had perpetrated upon the world at large. Colonialism and the Holocaust were thus the two sides of the same coin: the aggressive transmutation of defenceless human beings into instruments of power – into disposable “things”. Long before the Jewish Holocaust, the world Europeans had conquered and colonised was the testing ground of that barbaric violence they had termed the “civilising mission of the white man”.

        I think, if there was a honest discussion about the Nazi genocide against jews instead of a quasi-religional Holocaust culture controlled by the zionist movement and their world order, people would be able to encounter lot’s of different narratives.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        September 26, 2013, 7:53 pm

        And CNN said Rouhani called the Nazi genocide against jews “Holocaust” but Rouhani did not say that.

        So we are arguing over a literal versus idiomatic translation. He and the translator were providing a response to a specific question from Christiane Amanpour about the Holocaust. The scope of the Holocaust aside, the Holocaust is what “it is” ( است) that Rouhani was talking about. He declined to comment about the scope, but there’s no doubt from either version that Rouhani did condemn the crime against humanity that the Nazis committed against mankind, Jews and non-Jews alike.

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero
        September 26, 2013, 8:14 pm

        “He declined to comment about the scope”

        He did comment on that. He labeled the crime genocide. Labeling a crime genocide is a clear “comment about the scope.”

      • annie
        annie
        September 26, 2013, 8:41 pm

        thank you for the comments/link and blockquote bandelero.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        September 26, 2013, 9:31 pm

        He did comment on that. He labeled the crime genocide. Labeling a crime genocide is a clear “comment about the scope.”

        No, not literally. There are people who have been found guilty of the crime of genocide who didn’t kill anyone or who killed as few as 8 persons. 3 out of the 4 constituent acts mentioned in the genocide convention do not result in physical or biological destruction at all, i.e. taking children from the group and giving them to others, & etc.

        The European Court of Human Rights upheld Article 220a of the German Criminal Code which does NOT require physical or biological destruction in order to sustain a conviction for genocide. See Jorgic v Germany. https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?id=1163649&Site=COE

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 26, 2013, 9:36 pm

        “Rather, Europeans actually perpetrated similar crimes against humanity on the colonised world at large. With German atrocities during the Holocaust, Europeans tasted a concentrated dose of the structural violence they had perpetrated upon the world at large. Colonialism and the Holocaust were thus the two sides of the same coin: the aggressive transmutation of defenceless human beings into instruments of power – into disposable “things”. Long before the Jewish Holocaust, the world Europeans had conquered and colonised was the testing ground of that barbaric violence they had termed the “civilising mission of the white man”.”

        Hannah Arendt says something more or less like this in “The Origins of Totalitarianism”.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 27, 2013, 1:18 pm

        [email protected];

        You mentioned on previous comments to me that there are websites out there that have anti Israel sentiment’s but staunchly defend Obama’s drone policies/ the war in Iraq etc..

        If you see this comment could you possibly give me links to these websites please?

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      September 26, 2013, 2:32 pm

      I think the discussion about what Rouhani said will be better when it is based on what he actually said and not based on fabrications from CNN.

      I realize that farsnews.com is shaying gevalt about alleged fabrications, but they are mistaken when they claim that the red parts have been added or completely altered what he said.

      There really isn’t that much difference between the jist of the two translations they are comparing. Anyone can easily find statements in their version that support the things they claim CNN fabricated. So where’s the beef?

  9. Sycamores
    Sycamores
    September 26, 2013, 12:45 pm

    Phil Weiss

    lost in translation

    according to http://rt.com/news/remarks-holocaust-iranian-president-382/

    Iran news agency slams CNN for ‘fabricating’ Rouhani’s Holocaust remarks

    Fars translation

    “I have said before that I am not a historian and historians should specify, state and explain the aspects of historical events, but generally we fully condemn any kind of crime committed against humanity throughout history, including the crime committed by the Nazis both against the Jews and non-Jews, the same way that if today any crime is committed against any nation or any religion or any people or any belief, we condemn that crime and genocide. Therefore, what the Nazis did is condemned, [but] the aspects that you talk about, clarification of these aspects is a duty of the historians and researchers, I am not a history scholar.”

    CNN translation

    “I’ve said before that I am not a historian and then, when it comes to speaking of the dimensions of the Holocaust, it is the historians that should reflect on it. But in general I can tell you that any crime that happens in history against humanity, including the crime that Nazis committed towards the Jews as well as non-Jews is reprehensible and condemnable. Whatever criminality they committed against the Jews, we condemn, the taking of human life is contemptible, it makes no difference whether that life is Jewish life, Christian or Muslim, for us it is the same, but taking the human life is something our religion rejects but this doesn’t mean that on the other hand you can say Nazis committed crime against a group now therefore, they must usurp the land of another group and occupy it. This too is an act that should be condemned. There should be an even-handed discussion.”

    the war on words begin again.

  10. GJB
    GJB
    September 26, 2013, 1:45 pm

    “There is no moral equivalency between the slaughter of 6 million Jews and millions of other innocent men, women and children in the Nazi gas chambers and the plight of the Palestinian people living in the West Bank and Gaza.”

    Whenever I hear people saying this sort of thing, I think of this quote from Palestinian writer Afif Safieh:
    “If I were a Jew or a Gypsy, the Holocaust would be the most horrible event in history. If I were a Black African it would be Slavery and Apartheid. If I were a Native American, it would be the discovery of the New World by European explorers and settlers that resulted in near total extermination. If I were an Armenian it would be the Ottoman-Turkish massacres. And if I happen to be Palestinian, it would be the Nakba-Catastrophe. No one people has a monopoly on human suffering. It is not advisable to try to establish a hierarchy of suffering. Humanity should consider all the above as morally repugnant and politically unacceptable. And humanity is increasingly beginning to express its adhesion to the principle that there is only one mankind and not different kinds of men and women.”

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      September 26, 2013, 3:15 pm

      This!

    • American
      American
      September 26, 2013, 5:50 pm

      ‘And humanity is increasingly beginning to express its adhesion to the principle that there is only one mankind and not different kinds of men and women.”

      Exactly what the zionist cant let be admited/accepted.
      To put Jews or the holocaust on the same level as other humans and other holocaust genocides in the past would take away all their power.
      Zionist have only two real tools—–Jews as victims and political money.
      Even with twice the money it would be impossible to sell, and for politicans to get away with what has been done for a small ethnc/religo group and state like Israel without the forever victims and anti semitism and one and only holocaust meme.
      If they lose that they lose it all.

  11. American
    American
    September 26, 2013, 2:48 pm

    MJ is on the right track here.

    MJ Rosenberg
    HomeAbout.
    Who Gives a Damn If Rouhani Denies The Holocaust

    26Sep
    It’s starting again. The “bomb Iran” crowd are again screaming that President Rouhani is a Holocaust denier, just like his deranged predecessor.

    As Ha’aretz reports, Prime Minister Netanyahu was worried that Rouhani might totally abandon “denial” and leave him with no propaganda points to use for his war-mongering. Top Israeli journalist Chemi Shalev writes that the Holocaust is Netanyahu’s “only ace in the hole” to use against Rouhani who is clearly moving toward compromise on the nuclear issue.

    I wish Rouhani would just drop the ugly and offensive quibbling about the Holocaust. All he needs to do is speak the truth: the Holocaust happened; 6,000,000 Jews were killed along with millions of others; and all the mass killing constituted a crime against humanity.

    Period. End of controversy. Friend of both truth and peace celebrate: the war lobby weeps.

    But Rouhani resists that kind of formulation, although he does condemn the Holocaust albeit a little vaguely.

    So what?

    If Rouhani is prepared to negotiate over nuclear weapons, why do we care what he says about the Holocaust (it would be different if he acknowledged it and endorsed it).
    The government of Turkey, our NATO ally, denies the Armenian genocide and Turkey perpetrated it.
    Japan, our closest friend in Asia, still denies the Rape of Nanking and all the other war crimes Japan committed in China in the 1930′s.
    Congress forced the Smithsonian Institute to eviscerate its exhibit on the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for hinting that there might have been alternatives to using nuclear weapons.
    There are dozens of more examples, maybe even more than dozens.

    But again, so what?

    Denying the Holocaust is ugly and stupid but so is the “Holocaust denial industry,” by which I mean those who profit by saying the Holocaust didn’t happen and those who profit by obsessing over what they consider to be Holocaust denial. (In that later category, I include those who consider it Holocaust denial if one dares to say that people other than Jews were Holocaust victims every bit as much as Jews were). All these people desecrate the memories of the victims, — all the victims but especially the 6,000,000 Jews who are being used to score political points.

    Enough already.”

  12. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    September 26, 2013, 2:58 pm

    Heard Rouhani made a strong suggestion this morning at the UN that Israel sign onto the IAEA’s Non Proliferation treaty. Rouhani went on and said Israel’s nuclear stockpiles etc are a continued threat/block to a nuclear free middle east. Announced on NPR for heavens sake…will miracles never cease. Now let’s see if anyone else in the MSM brings this up. Israel sign the NPT

  13. DICKERSON3870
    DICKERSON3870
    September 26, 2013, 4:31 pm

    RE: “The other day Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu tweeted that Iranian President Hassan Rouhani denies the Holocaust. . . But Rouhani specifically acknowledges the Holocaust, per CNN . . .” ~ Weiss & Robbins

    MY COMMENT: To borrow from Nicole Sandler at RadioOrNot.com (referring to Fox News), Netanyahu and the Likudniks just “make sh_t up”! ! !

  14. Dagon
    Dagon
    September 26, 2013, 8:56 pm

    For some reason it’s becoming realy painful to watch westerners ,who massacard the jew for mellinia grill,and question mideastern officails about the holocaust.WTF.it feals like a shake down.like the mafia demanding their cut.Its like a daylight mugging.Its sickining.it really must be an industry.And it must stop.Shame on YOU. I mean why can’t these pols answer Whats that got to do with me ,Iran,palestine etc. euro killers did the crime and Iam supposed to offer my attonement at the zionist alter.And for how loong. And here is another thing for you,Lately I Met a customer at a mall.She had a business at the mall and dealt with the most arrogant,loud ,brash,no civility, screw every body else,most conceited people she ever met.I said,You mean they give you the feeling of being exeptional.Ill let you guess.she didnt know me,nor I ellicited any information.But she took it as a laughing matter. Gosh,Americans are CUTE.

    • miriam6
      miriam6
      September 27, 2013, 11:14 am

      [email protected];

      You really ought to be aiming your complaints at the Mondoweiss people ..

      No less than FOUR threads now over fewer days have been devoted to this business.

      Total overkill on the subject of Rouhani/ Rouhani and the Holocaust.

      Mondoweiss are the ones going on and on and on about it.

      Here in the outside REAL world people are not talking about it..

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 27, 2013, 1:20 pm

        “Total overkill on the subject of Rouhani/ Rouhani and the Holocaust.”

        Yeah, I’m sure that’s what you said about the coverage of Ahmadinejad when he was giving his opinion of the same subject, right??? Hypocrite.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        September 27, 2013, 2:06 pm

        Here in the outside REAL world people are not talking about it..

        You trolls need to get out from under your bridges once in a while. Israel and Iran are part of the real world. The Google, MSN, and other news aggregations on the subject indicate that Fars News, JPost, Ynet, Reuters, Haaretz, et al still had several follow-up articles on the subject yesterday and again today, e.g. :
        * Rouhani on peace process: Whatever the Palestinians accept, Iran will accept Iranian president also asked to clarify stance on Holocaust. http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Rouhani-on-peace-process-Whatever-the-Palestinians-accept-Iran-will-accept-327260
        * Rohani: Other nations should not suffer because of Nazi crimes: Iran’s president asked again about Holocaust, says he condemns crimes, but these don’t justify Palestinians’ condition. ‘Pushing people out of their homes unjustified,’ he says http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4433859,00.html
        * CNN denies Iranian press claims that Amanpour-Rouhani interview was mistranslated http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=829403&ocid=rr-tv-new
        *Iran: Rouhani’s Holocaust Remarks Misquoted: FARS agency says CNN “added to or changed parts” of his remarks and that he never said “Holocaust” or “reprehensible.” http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/172245#.UkXHnH-c508
        * How do you say Holocaust in Persian? http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=12209

        BTW, nobody is forcing you to read Mondoweiss or to comment here. If we bother you so much, try typing something different into your browser address bar.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 27, 2013, 3:03 pm

        [email protected];

        I still maintain the coverage in MW and in other places is ridiculous overkill.

        All Rouhani has to say is that he accepts the Holocaust happened and that six million Jews were murdered by the Nazi’s.

        Prevarication along the lines of ‘ I am not a historian ‘ are NOT good enough.

        However when Rouhani says that the Palestinian people have been made to pay the second greatest price for the Holocaust after its Jewish victims – I agree with him.

        I agree entirely that it is a tragedy that the Palestinians have paid a heavy price for a huge crime they had no responsibility for.

        I even agreed with that particular sentiment when the ghastly poisoned dwarf said it too.

        (But disagreed with all his other Holocaust denying bumph.)

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 29, 2013, 1:19 pm

        “All Rouhani has to say is that he accepts the Holocaust happened and that six million Jews were murdered by the Nazi’s.”

        No, he doesn’t have to do anything of the sort. And since the israelis have abused the fact of the holocaust since the 1940’s, he would be foolish to give them this solace, while the commit their crimes.

        But, further, the current best estimate is that fewer than 6million died. So would you have him take a position on that question? He’s not a historian. What qualifies him to say 6 million, as opposed to, say, 5.7 million?? And why are you limiting it to Jews? What about all the non-Jews killed?? Don’t they matter to you?

        “Prevarication along the lines of ‘ I am not a historian ‘ are NOT good enough.”

        That’s no prevarication. it’s a fact. He’s not a historian, and is more interested in making his political point than he is in your historical one.

        “the ghastly poisoned dwarf said it too”

        Calling someone a “dwarf” simply because he is short is no different than calling someone the n-word because they’re of African descent or one of the various anti-Jewish slurs because they’re Jewish. you should be ashamed of your bigotry, bigot.

      • American
        American
        September 29, 2013, 1:13 pm

        miriam6 says:
        September 27, 2013 at 11:14 am

        The ONLY reason people are discussing the holocaust is because the Zionist and Israel wont shut up about it—it is literally ALL they have to try and deflect from their own crimes.

  15. annie
    annie
    September 27, 2013, 1:46 am

    becoming realy painful to watch westerners ,who massacard the jew for mellinia grill,and question mideastern officails about the holocaust.WTF.it feals like a shake down.like the mafia demanding their cut.Its like a daylight mugging.Its sickining.it really must be an industry.And it must stop.Shame on YOU. I mean why can’t these pols answer Whats that got to do with me ,Iran,palestine etc. euro killers did the crime and Iam supposed to offer my attonement at the zionist alter.And for how loong.

    it’s gruesome.

  16. Talkback
    Talkback
    September 27, 2013, 8:35 am

    If you want to know how pathetic some behave compare them to the Sinti and Roma Holocaust survivors.

  17. Jabberwocky
    Jabberwocky
    September 28, 2013, 2:03 am

    It is a fact that the Holocaust happened and it is the greatest stain on human history.

    The biggest issue for the Iranians and others is that Zionists have instituted a ‘propaganda’ campaign based on 6 million dead – with ‘never again’, etc

    Factually this figure was based on a post war estimate of 4 million dead at Auschwitz. Following the fall of the Soviet Union the records were uncovered and the figure revised to 1 million. The plaque at Auschwitz was altered but there was no debate or discussion allowed around the reasons for the differences – Soviets also had an agenda. In fact you can be imprisoned in some European countries for even debating the numbers.

    This is the big mistake Zionists have made. An abhorrent and disgusting crime has been used as a PR tool by Israel (and the ADL) and they cannot allow that PR campaign to be modified by the facts.

    This belittles the historical significance and importance of historical discussion in ensuring that people know the truth. Truth is sacrificed for PR benefit.

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      September 28, 2013, 4:27 pm

      It is a fact that the Holocaust happened and it is the greatest stain on human history.

      Except of course for the experts and scholars who think that the Native American genocide lasted for four centuries, spanned two continents, and claimed 12 million or more victims.

      Factually this figure was based on a post war estimate of 4 million dead at Auschwitz. Following the fall of the Soviet Union the records were uncovered and the figure revised to 1 million.

      That evidence would have to be weighed against the testimony of the responsible German officials who claimed higher numbers and that records weren’t always kept.

      For example, the first Commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess testified to the military tribunal that during his time at the camp hundreds of thousands of human beings were sent to their deaths and that Eichmann had advised him that a sum of more than 2 million Jews had eventually been destroyed there. See the verbatim record here in the University of Missouri-Kansas City Law School’s Nuremberg archives

      DR. KAUFFMANN: And during that time, hundreds of thousands of human beings were sent to their death there. Is that correct?
      HOESS: Yes.
      DR. KAUTFFMANN: Is it true that you, yourself, have made no exact notes regarding the figures of the number of those victims because you were forbidden to make them?
      HOESS: Yes, that is correct.
      DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it furthermore correct that exclusively one man by the name of Eichmann had notes about this, the man who had the task of organizing and assembling these people?
      HOESS: Yes.
      DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it furthermore true that Eichmann stated to you that in Auschwitz a total sum of more than 2 million Jews had been destroyed?
      HOESS: Yes.

      http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/hoesstest.html

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 28, 2013, 4:39 pm

      >> It is a fact that the Holocaust happened and it is the greatest stain on human history.

      A great stain? Unquestionably.
      The greatest stain? Debatable.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      September 28, 2013, 11:59 pm

      Jabberwocky- I understood that whatever dispute exists between (real) historians regarding the number of Jews killed was focused on the number of Jews that existed before the arrival of the Nazis in countries where the major mode of murder was einsatzgruppen firing squads (as in the former Soviet Union). This accounts for the differing figure that Raul Hilberg arrived at (5.1 million) compared to 5.7 million that others have arrived at.
      http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/bldied.htm
      This about.com lists four sources for their estimates: Davidowicz, Hilberg, Gutman and Edelheit.

      If your historical qualms with the numbers at Auschwitz contradicts the estimates of these historians, please list the names of historians and the variance of estimates.

  18. Alla
    Alla
    January 8, 2015, 12:10 pm

    Let me to present a true historical fact which is forgotten by many and is being hidden by arabs.
    in 1948 Great Britain was supposed to give a jewish country Palestine to jews but it decided on it’s own that because arabs lived there already to give them 75%???? of the country and jews only got 25% of Palestine. Arabs today own 75% of Palestine and they wanted to cut more of the land from jewish 25%. Ronald Reagan spoke about this on our TV. He said arabs got 75% of Palestine and what more do they want. He considered Yasir Arafat a murderer and a criminal and did not allow him to come to America. There is no genocide or any discrimination of arabs by Israel, that is a lie.
    Israel offered land to arabs in exchange for peace because they wanted to stop suiside bombers from coming to Israel and now Mahmud Abbas demands the land as if it belongs to him?
    Mahmud Abbas is a russian puppet. He studied in Moscow and has close ties with Russia till this day. Hamas terrorists were trained in Moscow. Russia supplies weapons to arabs and it’s no secret. When lie is being told for a long time, it runs around the world and starts to look like the truth. Let’s not forget true facts and true events. Russia is interested in a blood sched in Middle East and that is why Gaza attacked Israel and will attack again and again. The blood of Gaza residents is on Putin’s hands not Israeli. Gaza terrorists were shooting at Israel and not even one country offered help to Israel or came to it’s side. Jews have to be left alone and Europe together with Russia have to stop sending millions of dollars to terrorists. Do you know that Israel supplies gas, water and food to Gaza. Arabs are members of israel’s knesset, arabs love to live in Israel, they would not leave and don’t want to go to West Bank or Gaza. Iranian president is sneaky like a fox. On one hand he says the word crimes on the other he says that he does not care about nationalities of murdered people. He would not say that one of the main goals of world war 2 was to destroy JEWS all over the world, that was the goal of war, not people of many nationalities or other nationalities. And he would not say the word HOLOCOST. People who were gassed in concentration camps were JEWS, he would say it. Now arabs know who they are. And they would tell you that they are egyptians or jordanians, saudies or yemenies. There is no such nation as palestinians. The term was created by former late russian president, who was also a head of KGB named Yuriy Andropov and his foreign minister named Evgeniy Primakov. Evgeniy’s real last name is Finkelstein , he is a jew and Primakov was the name of his step father. Evgeniy Primakov was training Mahmud Abbas when he studied in Moscow and was his lead person.
    Putin has strong ties with Hamas leaders and helps them financialy and militarily.
    The question is: Will someone tell the truth? Will someone says that a lie can’t pass for the truth.
    And the truth is: STOP ATTACKING ISRAEL, THE ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST where arabs who are murderers and stay in prisons can get COLLEGE EDUCATION and they commit crimes because they want to live in Israeli prison where they get their national food and live in comfort.

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