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Liberal Zionists call on ADL to cease publishing ‘anti-Israel’ sh*tlist because it will alienate U.S. Jews

Israel/Palestine
on 69 Comments

Two days ago the Anti-Defamation League, which is dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, issued a list of the top ten “anti-Israel” organizations in the U.S. This shocking sh*t-list (PDF here) includes Jewish Voice for Peace, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, and CODEPINK and suggests that the groups are anti-Semitic.

In addition to their national impact and influence, many of the groups included in the list are known to employ rhetoric that is extremely hostile to Israel, Zionists and/or Jews.  Examples of this include:

Allegations that Israel or Jews control the U.S. government or the media; Offensive parallels to the Holocaust by comparing Israeli leaders to Nazis or describing Gaza as the “new Auschwitz;” Calls for the dismantlement of the state of Israel; Expressions of support for terrorist groups that seek Israel’s destruction.

Now the New Israel Fund and J Street issued a statement deploring the list as “shortsighted and unproductive” for “lumping organizations which truly oppose Israel’s right to exist with others that harshly criticize Israeli government policy.”

Note that the recent Pew findings, which have rocked the Jewish world, figure in the liberal Zionist groups’ appeal for dialogue with, not denunciation of, those supporting BDS.

However, examining the individual reports on the 10 groups, it becomes clear that the “sin” of several does not go much beyond support for the BDS movement or partnering with those who do. For instance, the indictment of “CODEPINK” reads: “CODEPINK’s objective is to reduce U.S. support for Israel and end U.S.-led wars and military campaigns in the Middle East and elsewhere. Though some of its initiatives have little to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (e.g. opposition to U.S. drone strikes, the closing of Guantanamo Bay), four of the 12 “Issues” listed on its website are about Israel, including a call for BDS against Israel and advocacy on ending U.S. aid to Israel.”

Meanwhile, the ADL admits that the Muslim Public Affairs Council explicitly recognizes Israel and supports a two-state solution, but partners with groups in the BDS movement. This is guilt by association and an unfair indictment of an organization that seeks dialogue with our community.

Issuing such blanket denunciations is ultimately self-defeating. Indeed, such condemnations have been issued, and are occasionally still issued, against our own organizations by various self-appointed guardians of ideological purity, who often turn out to be fronting an ultra-nationalist, pro-settlement agenda in Israel. That’s why we believe so strongly in open debate, why we do not launch guerrilla media campaigns against those who oppose our progressive values and why we must speak out when other organizations, including those with whom we profoundly disagree, are smeared with the same tactics.

We have the deepest respect for the ADL and the important role it has played in combatting anti-Semitism and racism in the United States. It should continue to do this by cataloging and drawing attention to specific cases wherever they occur. It should however be wary of devaluing the reality of anti-Semitism by applying the charge broadly against political organizations whose aims and tactics it disagrees with or suggesting that vigorous criticism of Israeli policy equates to anti-Semitism. And it should be careful not to further alienate the majority of American Jews who, as the recent Pew survey demonstrates, care deeply about Israel, but are no longer convinced that Israel or the Palestinians are sincerely searching for peace.

There is room for an important debate about BDS, a debate we believe we can win and are winning. We can and should discuss the contours of a final negotiated settlement, Israel’s future as a democracy and the complexities of Israel-Diaspora relations.

This list makes no contribution to those debates. We hope that 2013 is the last year it is issued.

philweiss
About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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69 Responses

  1. seafoid
    seafoid
    October 23, 2013, 2:08 pm

    “Allegations that Israel or Jews control the U.S. government or the media; ”

    JVP also alleges that the Pope shits in the woods.

    • mondonut
      mondonut
      October 23, 2013, 2:15 pm

      @seafoid

      So it is your belief that Jews control the U.S. government?

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 23, 2013, 2:45 pm

        mondonut,

        Are you denying that the IDF abuses children?

      • annie
        annie
        October 23, 2013, 3:21 pm

        good luck getting a straight answer to that question! nut is still over there in the trenches of the sadistic-soldier/ child-writhing-in-pain video thread claiming there’s no ‘evidence’ of assault.

        he’s in a state of permanent denial.

      • yrn
        yrn
        October 24, 2013, 4:32 am

        And there is no ‘evidence’ of assault.
        Only imagination.
        Where is the footage.
        keep on looking

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        October 24, 2013, 11:11 am

        Annie Robbins says:
        good luck getting a straight answer to that question!
        ================================================
        Speaking of getting a straight answer, how about a simple yes or no to the question above.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 24, 2013, 3:32 pm

        yrn,

        Do you deny that IDF soldiers abuse Palestinian children?

        Do you deny the findings of the mainstream human rights groups and the UN?

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 23, 2013, 2:57 pm

        nut is so pathetic.

        It’s 2013, and the 2ss is dead and you’re still policing people’s thoughts re: antisemitism.

        That is all you are – antisemitism/Holocaust/Israel.

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        October 24, 2013, 11:13 am

        Cliff says: It’s 2013, and the 2ss is dead and you’re still policing people’s thoughts re: antisemitism.
        ========================================
        I am not policing anything. Very simple question that only requires a yes/no.
        Please feel free to provide your own answer.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 24, 2013, 5:40 pm

        @nut

        You are policing thoughts.

        And apparently a simple yes/no question is only simple when you’re the one asking it.

        You still haven’t answered MY yes/no question from the other thread:

        Do you deny that the IDF abuses Palestinian children?

        Do you deny the findings of the mainstream human rights organizations and the UN?

      • Egbert
        Egbert
        October 23, 2013, 3:27 pm

        Assuming The Times of Israel isn’t Anti-Semitic (TM)

        Manny Friedman says: Jews DO control the media

        “We’re a driven group, and not just in regards to the art world. We have, for example, AIPAC, which was essentially constructed just to drive agenda in Washington DC. And it succeeds admirably. And we brag about it. Again, it’s just what we do.

        But the funny part is when any anti-Semite or anti-Israel person starts to spout stuff like, “The Jews control the media!” and “The Jews control Washington!”

        Suddenly we’re up in arms. We create huge campaigns to take these people down. We do what we can to put them out of work. “

      • mondonut
        mondonut
        October 24, 2013, 11:15 am

        Egbert says: Assuming The Times of Israel isn’t Anti-Semitic (TM)
        Manny Friedman says: Jews DO control the media
        ===========================================
        Nice try on the spin, but you are not answering the question I asked.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        October 23, 2013, 4:05 pm

        I believe the bots get value for their lobbying dollars as Lindsay Graham showed. I don’t see the Southern poverty law centre with similar levels of senatorial commitment but maybe I must have missed it.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 23, 2013, 6:01 pm

        @ mondonut “So it is your belief that Jews control the U.S. government?”

        As no one has ever been able to give a rational or factual explanation as to why the US maintains the UNSC veto vote on Chapt VII resolutions against Israel for breaching laws the US itself was instrumental in being adopted by the International community, one might conclude that yes, Jews do control the US Government in respect to the I/P issue.

  2. Justpassingby
    Justpassingby
    October 23, 2013, 2:27 pm

    In the real world, Israel would be on the list. They support terror, dismantling of Palestine, seeking destruction of Gaza, Iran, Lebanon etc, calling its enemies nazis etc

  3. Shmuel
    Shmuel
    October 23, 2013, 3:42 pm

    many of the groups included in the list are known to employ rhetoric that is extremely hostile to Israel, Zionists and/or Jews.

    Gotta love that “and/or”. Looking on the bright side, the “or” seems to imply that one may be “extremely hostile to Israel [and] Zionists” without being “extremely hostile” to Jews. Wait … is that an ADL junior staffer I hear hitting the pavement?

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      October 23, 2013, 4:07 pm

      The 10 commandments include rhetoric that is extremely hostile to Israel, as does the Israeli penal code.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        October 23, 2013, 4:24 pm

        It just occurred to me that “Foxman’s top ten” can be characterised as follows:

        The ADL is known to employ rhetoric that is extremely hostile to critics of Israel, anti-Zionists and/or Jews.

  4. paabrhm
    paabrhm
    October 23, 2013, 5:32 pm

    Being named on the list should be viewed as an honor and used as a fund raiser. In fact, I just sent congratulatory donations to a organizations on the list that I support. Suggest we all do the same.

    • Rusty Pipes
      Rusty Pipes
      October 24, 2013, 2:39 pm

      It’s the modern equivalent of Nixon’s Enemies List. Several other groups must be re-evaluating how their work for Palestinian human rights could be more effective and high-profile in order to make the cut for the next list.

    • Rusty Pipes
      Rusty Pipes
      October 24, 2013, 8:02 pm

      Great response from Alison Weir at Counterpunch:

      Your Top Ten report appears to be an important element of your fundraising outreach, which rakes in almost $60 million for your annual budget – on top of your $115 million net assets.

      Yet in looking through the report, I notice that almost all of us Top Ten groups have quite small budgets. Ours, which is one of the smallest, is less than 1/400th of your yearly revenue. Your salary alone – $688,188 – dwarfs the entire yearly budget for all but two of these groups, and is over four times the annual budget for our entire organization.

      The truth is, all our groups are struggling, and our financial survival is at times in real jeopardy.

      Abe, this should worry you.

      What will you do if we go under? How will you raise such large sums of money? How in the world will you pay yourself two-thirds of a million dollars each year if you can’t scare your donors with distorted stories of what we do and frightening myths about why we do it?

  5. Ron Edwards
    Ron Edwards
    October 23, 2013, 6:06 pm

    I want to know what groups J Street/New Israel Fund think *do* oppose Israel’s alleged right to exist. (Clarification: nonsensical term.) They’ve drawn a hard line between the good & bad guys with that. I suppose I could treat it as an elimination exercise, everyone but the Muslim Public Affairs council and CODEPINK, but it’d be nice to have the self-claimed progressives (as if) spit it out – who they think the bad guys really are. They imply that the ADL list includes at least one, but don’t say who.

    How much you want to bet they can’t cop to it or debate the point?

  6. just
    just
    October 23, 2013, 6:37 pm

    It appears more like a “hit” list.

    The ADL will brook no civil conversation, no work toward a just peace, nor any criticism.

    It is a defamation league for anyone not of the “tribe”

  7. October 23, 2013, 6:40 pm

    I am not familiar with the groups on the list but I am now familiar with this blog and I can testify in any court that this is a very efficient factory of producing new anti-Semites and providing a feeding place for the existing ones. Just look at the comments on this thread.

    The fact that 80%-90% of the world Jews are Zionists automatically means that the relentless flow of anti-Zionist Soviet Pravda like propaganda is turning people who may perhaps try to keep some sort of objectivity into vicious anti-Semites.
    What “War of Ideas….”?! Y0u must be kidding. The few pro Israeli voices are suppressed with such a vicious personal hatred and censorship of their posts that after few attempts they just stop posting or post short pieces once in a while since they know they will not get through the “moderator” while the anti-Zionist comments are posted with no limits, tens a day.
    Half truths and Soviet Pravda like picking of negative info about Israel or Zionists activity in US as well as constant implications that all the evil in the world (Egypt, Syria, Iran, drones, electronic eavesdropping, military industry, economic hardships etc etc etc etc) are the results of the Zionists actions leaves no choice for any reader but to become an animal hater of Jews who are in their majority supporters of Zionism.

    My latest posts are viciously blocked one after another – posts with links, honest research and references. You must be proud – real students of the Soviet era KGB manipulation of the information flow. Shame on you.

    I am going to write to ADL and other relevant places about my experiences here. I will directly compare them with my experiences with KGB. I have already appeared once before Senate committee which led to the famous Jackson Vanik amendment. I hope I will be able to cause a similar reactions with your blog.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson%E2%80%93Vanik_amendment

    • just
      just
      October 24, 2013, 5:10 am

      you are one funny guy.

      have at it. you threaten all day, every day. what a life.

    • justicewillprevail
      justicewillprevail
      October 24, 2013, 5:36 am

      I think you’re kind of missing the point of the piece, which you only appear to be reinforcing.

    • amigo
      amigo
      October 24, 2013, 7:04 am

      “The fact that 80%-90% of the world Jews are Zionists ” professer leviticus.

      Things aren,t that bad , are they.

      I was hoping maybe only 75% percent of Jews are Zionist bigots and racists.

      “My latest posts are viciously blocked one after another – posts with links, honest research and references. “leviticus

      Are you saying your earlier posts did not include honest research and references.

      None of your links are even close to honest but are links to right wing zio hasbara blogs.

      “I am going to write to ADL and other relevant places about my experiences here. I will directly compare them with my experiences with KGB. I have already appeared once before Senate committee which led to the famous Jackson Vanik amendment. I hope I will be able to cause a similar reactions with your blog.”leviticus

      Keep us informed .We love a little cabaret.

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      October 24, 2013, 8:27 am

      @ fnlevit

      Please enlighten us with your definition of antisemitism, too. And please also at least try to be rational and not like the usual Hasbara imbeciles.

      If you’re going to write to the “ADL and other relevant places about” your experiences here, please add some testimonials from Palestinians living under your beloved Apartheid Junta – if they pass its military censor.

    • eljay
      eljay
      October 24, 2013, 8:38 am

      >> I am going to write to ADL and other relevant places about my experiences here.

      Be sure to let them know that, in addition to being a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist, you’re a big cry-baby. :-(

    • talknic
      talknic
      October 24, 2013, 8:55 am

      fnlevit “… I am now familiar with this blog and I can testify in any court that this is a very efficient factory of producing new anti-Semites and providing a feeding place for the existing ones. Just look at the comments on this thread. “

      Say….why didn’t you quote or point to any specific comments?

      “My latest posts are viciously blocked one after another – posts with links, honest research and references.”

      You can post ’em here http://wp.me/pDB7k-1aG (conditions apply)

    • Shmuel
      Shmuel
      October 24, 2013, 9:24 am

      My latest posts are viciously blocked

      Maybe the moderators don’t like your indiscriminate use of adverbs.

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        October 24, 2013, 9:46 am

        They probably aren’t too keen on the verbose lifting of unattributed quotes, the links to unreliable zio sites, and the off topic fulminating and disingenuous claims of ‘antisemitism’ against posters you disagree with, which is just about everybody. However, if you want to try and impress us with your vainglorious boasts of going to the Senate and, shock!, writing letters to the ADL, in a futile attempt to bully people into posting your diatribes, go ahead.

        On the other hand you could try posting concise, on topic comments which address the article at the top in your own words, and treat others with some respect. Or would that be too difficult, ‘professor’, and contrary to your agenda?

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        October 24, 2013, 10:28 am

        Oh, one other thing, prof. If you looking for reminders of the KGB and Soviet censorship, consider the actions of Shin Bet, Mossad and the countless other shadowy groups operating out of goverment offices in Israel. What other country has a military censor, raids citizens homes at night and forbids the publishing of the information:
        http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/05/10/865104/-Israeli-Secret-Police-Arrests-Israeli-Palestinian-Leaders-Press-Gagged#
        Gulags? Gaza. Not to mention internment without trial if your are non-Jewish, removal of political and civil rights, torture, beatings, arrests of children…

        You must almost feel right at home, back in the USSR, except that you are now the masters, not the servants. Do you work for them too?

    • DaraO
      DaraO
      October 24, 2013, 9:31 am

      You’re absolutely right, fnlevit. Writers and commenters on this site often do advance the false and antisemitic notion that Jews, particularly in the United States, wield influence disproportionate to their numbers. You should use your influence with Congress to get this website shut down, like you did to destroy the Soviet Union.

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      October 24, 2013, 9:53 am

      LMAO. I love it how the nutty professor compares the steps to stop his pro-zio propaganda here, with Soviet Pravda. Or the threat to write the ADL. Oh my, a website that doesn’t buy the zionist line. And in America, no less. What a threat to humanity.

    • walktallhangloose
      walktallhangloose
      October 24, 2013, 10:30 am

      “implications that all the evil(S) in the world are the results of the Zionist actions leaves no choice for any reader but to become an animal hater of Jews who are in their majority supporters of Zionism.”

      Of course the reader has a choice, at least if he has a modicum of rationality and humanity in his makeup. No such reader is going to believe that all the evil in the world is the result of Zionist actions, nor is he going to believe that all Zionists are equally to blame, let alone all the Jews in the world. He may well conclude that some Zionists are doing some very evil things, and come to hate those particular Zionists. That is not anti-Semitism.

    • amigo
      amigo
      October 24, 2013, 11:29 am

      “I have already appeared once before Senate committee which led to the famous Jackson Vanik amendment. leviticus

      ” The Jackson–Vanik amendment is a 1974 provision in United States federal law, intended to affect U.S. trade relations with countries with non-market economies (originally, countries of the Communist bloc) that restrict freedom of emigration and other human rights.”

      Too funny

      Now we know the inspiration of that famous song ?.

      “The fool on the Hill”.

    • MRW
      MRW
      October 24, 2013, 11:48 am

      This isn’t the Soviet Union here, fnlevit. You’re free to leave, free to emigrate. It’s a click away. What you’re not free to do, however, is dictate to us how we are supposed to think and write. You can take that KGB leftover agita and start your own blog.

      Mondoweiss sets the rules for its own blog. You don’t like ’em, then don’t play in this sandbox.

    • Ecru
      Ecru
      October 25, 2013, 9:42 am

      @ fnlevit

      I hope you’re better at quantum physics than this ’cause at this you’re useless.

      The fact that 80%-90% of the world Jews are Zionists automatically means that the relentless flow of anti-Zionist Soviet Pravda like propaganda is turning people who may perhaps try to keep some sort of objectivity into vicious anti-Semites.

      Nope. Anti-semitism is defined as hatred of Jews based on them being Jews and Jews alone. If someone despises 80-90% of Jews (your figures) based on their being Zionists then they’re still an anti-Zionist NOT an anti-semite. Because someone disagrees vehemently with that 80-90%s position of ethno-supremacism and bigotry not with their ethnicity. Unless you maintain that ethno-supremacism and bigotry are inherent to the make-up of Jewish people? Which I think would qualify YOU as an anti-semite actually. Maybe you should think about that. Hating bigotry does not make one a bigot even if a majority of a given population are bigots, it’s still the bigotry that’s being hated.

      The few pro Israeli voices are suppressed ……….[snip self-pitying whining]……while the anti-Zionist comments are posted with no limits, tens a day

      I for one have had MANY comments not get through the moderators. How can you prove that anti-zionist comments are not as heavily moderated as your own given that any comment that doesn’t get through isn’t visible to anyone and leaves no trace? You’re ASSUMING your being singled out with no evidence to demonstrate the claim, revealing the typical Zionist senses of entitlement and eternal self-pity.

      ….constant implications that all the evil in the world (Egypt, Syria, Iran, drones, electronic eavesdropping, military industry, economic hardships etc etc etc etc) are the results of the Zionists actions….

      Off hand I can’t recall anyone claiming the disaster of the DRC or China invading Tibet was Israel’s fault. Nope you’re twisting what people say. Again. A constant is that these things have a Zionist ASPECT to them, sometimes to be sure a dominant one; and they unarguably do so. I haven’t however seen a claim that Zionists are the sole actor behind these things.

      Although you lost me at the economic hardship thing – not noticed anything about that unless you’re talking about why the USA is still giving Israel so much money when so many Americans are hurting or the recent report on Israel stifling the further Palestinian development of their own territory.

      …the results of the Zionists actions leaves no choice for any reader but to become an animal hater of Jews who are in their majority supporters of Zionism.

      Not unless a person thinks being a Zionist HAS to be inherent to being a Jew, which again seems to be your position not anyone else’s here. And I’m pretty sure it’s blasphemous as well, isn’t that covenant with Yahweh thing supposed to be important? But again since you seem to have problems with the concept hating bigotry does not make one a bigot. You seem to have missed the fact that many of the other anti-zionist commentators here are in fact Jews themselves or are you going for that old and tired “self-hating” Jew claim? Please no. It’s so passe. There’s an old thing in Christianity, maybe in Judaism too, “hate the sin, not the sinner” maybe you should check it out?

      My latest posts are viciously blocked one after another

      Again, poor you. Do you have any idea how many posts have been blocked from other people? Because, again, unless you do, all your doing is arguing self-pity and undeserved entitlement.

      I am going to write to ADL and other relevant places about my experiences here. I will directly compare them with my experiences with KGB.

      You do know most of us here consider the ADL to be a joke don’t you? This is after all the organisation that claimed European antisemitism was increasing at a level that was within its own surveys margin of error. I thought physicists respected maths more than that.

      As for the KGB are you not aware that Mondoweiss has no links to government? It can’t just march into your house and disappear you to Siber…….oh so THAT’S where Israel learned the trick.

      I have already appeared once before Senate committee which led to the famous Jackson Vanik amendment. I hope I will be able to cause a similar reactions with your blog.

      Self important much? Assuming I believe you you do realise that what your trying to threaten is a shut down of free speech yes? And I thought you kept claiming Zionism is all for that?

      You’re a joke. Go away and find a dinner theatre somewhere to perform your act in, it aint getting any applause here.

  8. JustJessetr
    JustJessetr
    October 23, 2013, 7:19 pm

    I thought MW didn’t care what Liberal Zionists thought.

  9. kayq
    kayq
    October 24, 2013, 12:43 am

    Why do these losers think calling for the dismantlement of the state of Israel is “antisemitic”? Yet somehow a state built atop the ruins of Palestinian homes, dispossession and blood is fine

    • OlegR
      OlegR
      October 24, 2013, 5:28 am

      Because it is antisemitic.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        October 24, 2013, 6:34 am

        Then it’s true that “antisemitism” doesn’t mean “hatred of Jews” but “disagreement with the preference of some Jews.” So if a Jew says the prettiest color is purple it is antisemitism to think yellow is the prettiest color. Got it. Thanks for the clarification, Oleg

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        October 24, 2013, 11:06 am

        Wanting to destroy the only Jewish state supported by most of the Jews in the world is antisemitism.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        October 25, 2013, 3:31 pm

        “Wanting to destroy the only Jewish state supported by most of the Jews in the world is antisemitism.”

        Nonsense. If one wanted to destroy that state because of its Jewish connection, then you might have a point. But virtually everyone who wants it destroyed wants it destroyed because it acts in ways which are barbaric, oppressive, and racist, and because it ascribes to a barbaric racist ideology which precludes it from acting otherwise. It’s its acts and its acts alone — and nothing to do with its Jewishness — that is the basis for those calls, so those calls are by definition not antisemitic.

      • amigo
        amigo
        October 24, 2013, 7:08 am

        “Because it is antisemitic.”oleg

        So if Jews call for the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel, what heading does that come under.

        Or is my question Anti Semitic.

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        October 24, 2013, 11:05 am

        /So if Jews call for the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel, what heading does that come under./

        Immoral idiocy.

      • amigo
        amigo
        October 25, 2013, 8:54 am

        So if Jews call for the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel, what heading does that come under./

        Immoral idiocy

        Surely if those Israeli Arabs are citizens of “The Jewish State”, it would be Anti Semitic.

        Your rules comrade.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        October 24, 2013, 8:22 am

        @ OlegR

        Please enlighten us with your definition of antisemitism. And at least try to be rational and not like the usual Hasbara imbeciles.

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        October 24, 2013, 11:06 am

        Talkback
        Try to be polite when you ask me a question and i might feel inclined to answer you.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 24, 2013, 10:39 pm

        @ OlegR “Try to be polite when you ask me a question and i might feel inclined to answer you”

        OK

        Is it not true that the Mandate expired before the Israeli Declaration came into effect? http://pages.citebite.com/d2w2m2n6a3mad

        Is not true that Israel was recognized as it asked to be recognized? “MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.” http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

        Is it not true that Israel has never legally annexed any territories ? http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/b86613e7d92097880525672e007227a7/6de6da8a650b4c3b852560df00663826?OpenDocument

        Is it not true that it is illegal to acquire territory by “force whether this consists in the employment of arms, in threatening diplomatic representations, or in any other effective coercive measure” ? http://pages.citebite.com/y1f0t4q1v4son

        Is it not true under the 1949 Armistice Agreements “The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question” http://pages.citebite.com/t2b2w2a6b6cig and; that Israel has never actually reached an ultimate settlement ?

        If the above are all true, is it not true that Israel’s borders are still as they were originally recognized May 15th 1948?

      • Obsidian
        Obsidian
        October 25, 2013, 12:17 am

        @talknic

        Your desiderata may be to return to your adolescence, but that not going to happen any more than Israel returning to the 1948 lines.

      • walktallhangloose
        walktallhangloose
        October 25, 2013, 7:00 am

        No one is asking Israel to return to the lines of 15 May 1948. The Palestinians have already said that, in a peace agreement, they will accept the de facto border (the 1949 Armistice line) as the legal border.

        But knowing that the legal border is that declared on 15th May 1948 has a great significance for the peace process. The territory between the legal border and the de facto border was acquired by Israel in the 1948-49 war, in violation of the UN Charter, and illegally incorporated into Israel by the device of applying Israel civil law in captured territory, instead of the laws of war. (Thereby also removing the protection of the Geneva Conventions from the inhabitants of the captured territory.) This stolen territory, as it is rightly called, amounts to some 50% of the territory of Palestine, outside the legal borders of Israel, and includes the towns of Acre, Ashkelon, Nazareth, Beersheba, Lod, Jaffa and, of course, West Jerusalem.

        The Palestinians have therefore made a huge territorial concession to Israel in advance of the final status negotiations, without, so far as I know, asking for any compensation, to which they certainly would be entitled given the clear illegality of Israel’s behavior. It would therefore be manifestly unjust and unreasonable for Israel to demand more territorial concessions, or concessions on the refugees’ right of return, from Palestine.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        October 25, 2013, 8:21 am

        I knew you would fail to define antisemtism, OlegR. I was only hoping your failure wouldn’t sound like the failure of one of those Hasbara imbeciles I was talking about.

      • kayq
        kayq
        October 24, 2013, 8:51 am

        No it isn’t. It’s called justice. If the dismantling of the state does not involve harming Jews, then it is not antisemitic.

        Maybe you would need to re-evaluate the meaning?

        anti-Semitism
        antiˈsɛmətɪzəm/
        noun
        noun: antisemitism
        1.
        hostility to or prejudice against Jews

        doesn’t say Israel anywhere.

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        October 24, 2013, 11:07 am

        / If the dismantling of the state does not involve harming Jews, then it is not antisemitic./

        Dismantling a Jewish state will involve harming Jews so it is.

      • amigo
        amigo
        October 25, 2013, 8:09 am

        “/ If the dismantling of the state does not involve harming Jews, then it is not antisemitic./oleg

        since when is insisting Israelis return to their own nation an act of harming Jews.

        Just go home and you wont be harmed.

        “Dismantling a Jewish state will involve harming Jews so it is.” oleg

        There is no Jewish State.It is the State of Israelis –Arabs/Christians/Moslem’s and Jews.

        Get this Notion of a “Jewish State” out of your head.

        Not gonna happen.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        October 25, 2013, 3:33 pm

        “Dismantling a Jewish state will involve harming Jews so it is.”

        So would stopping a roving band of Jewish rapists and outlaws. Are you suggesting that that would be antisemitic, too?? or are you just flailing about for some basis to support your unsupportable assertions.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        October 28, 2013, 10:52 am

        OlegR says: “Dismantling a Jewish state will involve harming Jews so it is.”

        Antisemitism harms Jews as such. Harming Jews is not necesseraly “antisemitic”. You still don’t know what antisemitism means, Oleg.

      • Memphis
        Memphis
        October 24, 2013, 4:20 pm

        I don’t think Israel should exist as country. It was founded upon lies and injustice, and therefor in support of truth and justice it should be disbanded and all residents receive equal rights and equal privileges.

        You can call me an anti-semite all you wish. I don’t give a rats ass if that’s what you think. It makes me laugh.

        If supporting human rights and justice for palestinians is anti-semitic, then I’ll wear that as a badge of honour

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      October 24, 2013, 8:31 am

      kayq says: “Why do these losers think calling for the dismantlement of the state of Israel is “antisemitic”?”

      Because the identification of some Jews with this state is as total as living in a fascist state. So if you dismantle the state or its regime to them is like dimantling themselves. Ask some Zionist die hard fascists. Or ask OlegR.

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        October 25, 2013, 3:30 am

        Because denying Jews the right to self determination (especially one they already have )is treating them as different then the rest of the nations of the world.Singling Jews out among all the other nation is antisemitic.
        Because the dismantling of our state can only end in violence.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 25, 2013, 4:30 am

        OlegR “… denying Jews the right to self determination (especially one they already have )”

        Ahem… “some Jews” (or so called, coveting other folks property is forbidden by Judaism). People, Jewish or not, do not have any right to self determination over illegally acquiring other folk’s territory.

        “..is treating them as different then the rest of the nations of the world.”

        What other nations are illegally acquiring other folks territory, illegally settling, in breach of hundreds of UNSC resolutions?

        “Because the dismantling of our state can only end in violence”

        Should have thought of that before ‘determining’ to dismantle the State of Palestine (a state with provisional recognition (Art 22 Lon Covenant)

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 25, 2013, 5:44 am

        Jews have no collective right to self-determination.

        Jews are citizens of the countries they reside in. Not to Israel. Only Israeli Jews are citizens of Israel.

        Self-determination belongs to the PEOPLE OF A LAND and not to people who do not live on the land, whose family do not live on the land, whose ancestors never set foot in the land.

        The land belonged/belongs to the Palestinian people – the MAJORITY population who you monsters raped/murdered/massacred and ethnically cleansed.

        People want to hold you accountable to basic human decency. You want to be treated with special considerations all the while claiming to be victims of some conspiracy.

        The real conspiracy is your constant stream of bullshit justifications for Jewish colonialism.

        Who gives a shit if you’re singled out? That’s one less horrible place on Earth we have to deal with. After Zionism, we can focus on something else horrible.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        October 25, 2013, 8:32 am

        OlegR says: “Because denying Jews the right to self determination (especially one they already have )is treating them as different then the rest of the nations of the world.”

        Nonsense. First af all the right to self determinationa doesn’t necessarily mean a right to a state of your own, but a right to participate in an independent state. Second, Jews as other people don’t have a right to a state of their own only because they are or define themselves as a people. The right to self determination is a civic, not an ethnic or religious right. Third, Israel doesn’t recognize Palestine or Kosovo. Israelis are are all haters, aren’t you?

        “Singling Jews out among all the other nation is antisemitic.”

        Only if this singling out is because they are Jewish, not if they are singled out for other reasons and just happen to be Jewish. But who is singling out Jews, if Israel doesn’t recognize Palestine or Kosovo?

        “Because the dismantling of our state can only end in violence.”
        If that was true the violence wouldn’t be because of antisemitism neither.

        Your antisemitism accusation is pathetic.

      • eljay
        eljay
        October 25, 2013, 8:55 am

        >> … denying Jews the right to self determination …

        People of the Jewish faith, living in countries around the world, occupied, ethnically-cleansed and colonized land in Palestine, and set up what is, fundamentally, a religion-supremacist state.

        That wasn’t, and isn’t, “self-determination”; that was, and is, Jewish supremacism.

      • walktallhangloose
        walktallhangloose
        October 25, 2013, 9:46 am

        Peoples have a right to self-determination in their own land. Allowing foreign Jews to exercise their right of self-determination in Palestine, where only a tiny proportion of Jewish people lived before 1922, had the effect of denying the Palestinian people their right of self-determination in Palestine. The only way to resolve this situation in the long term is, in the words of the Zionist congress of 1921: for “the Jewish people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual respect, and together with them to make the common home into a flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of its peoples an undisturbed national development. I suggest that, once Palestine has gained its freedom, this could come about by means of a union of the two nations into a single state, along the lines of the Scotland-England model – see religion-science-peace.org/?p=278.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        October 25, 2013, 3:35 pm

        “Because denying Jews the right to self determination (especially one they already have )is treating them as different then the rest of the nations of the world”

        No one would be doing that. They’d merely be saying that they can’t exercise their right of self-determination if they cannot do so without oppressing another peoples. (Unless you think it ok that the Palestinians suffer for the sake of Jewish self-determination. And if that’s the case then I ask you: exactly how much persecution of Jews is a people permitted, under your way of thinking, to commit, for the sake of that people’s self determination??)

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