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Journalistic malpractice: Washington Post suggests Abbas doesn’t recognize Israel’s right to exist

Israel/Palestine
Clinton, Rabin, and Arafat on the White House lawn, 1993

Clinton, Rabin, and Arafat on the White House lawn, 1993

The other day the Washington Post ran this readers’ poll (for which we can’t find the link):

Today’s Opinions poll

Is President Obama overestimating Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas’s willingness to recognize Israel’s right to exist?
Yes
73%
No
27%
11692 people have taken this poll.

This poll is completely deceptive. In the most significant compromise in the history of the conflict, in 1988, the Palestine Liberation Organization accepted Israel’s right to exist within secure borders. It reaffirmed this acceptance in the declaration of the Oslo principles in 1993, with the famous handshake on the White House lawn.

That is a fait accompli; and if 73 percent of Washington Post readers are ignorant, it is surely because the newspaper is misleading them. The Post is purposely conflating that long-ago demand by Israel, that Palestinians met, with the latest demand by Israel, that Palestine recognize Israel as a Jewish state, a trap set by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu so that the failure of the current talks will be blamed on the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who will not return to the pre-67 borders and give up their colonies inside the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

It is often said that Yasser Arafat was the only Palestinian leader who could effect such a compromise, who had the ability to bring Palestinian opinion to favor an overwhelming compromise on land and likely negotiations over the right of return.

Those days are now over, and the Oslo agreement is in serious jeopardy because of Israeli intransigence. The Post is readying American opinion– to blame the Palestinians.

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About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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65 Responses

  1. Krauss
    Krauss
    March 29, 2014, 2:36 pm

    The Washington Post is the epicenter of conventional wisdom in the beltway. These people are by nature reactionary and by that I mean they reflect the opinions of the past, because of their age, because they rose in such a value system.

    Will the students of America, especially at liberal universities, accept this blindly the way they did 10-15 years ago after the Clinton initiative failed?

  2. Blownaway
    Blownaway
    March 29, 2014, 3:26 pm

    73% of 12000 people are ignorant yet still answer. Thats the goal of The Washington Post….to perpetuate ignorance

  3. K Renner
    K Renner
    March 29, 2014, 3:39 pm

    That’s just hilarious. Some vague question that’s based around the premise of “let’s talk about what we think Abbas REALLY thinks!” or some irrelevant garbage like that.

    Personally, I think there should be a lot more focus, in terms of problems on the road to actual peace, on the fact that considerable sub-sections of the pro-Israel camp seemingly find it incredibly difficult to realize that the Palestinians exist, or the Palestinian consciousness exists.

    Let’s see pro-Israel leaders and pundits all collectively acknowledge the reality of the existence of the Palestinians before anyone starts waffling and wailing and surmising on what Abbas thinks without actually asking him what he thinks.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      March 30, 2014, 5:10 am

      @ K Renner

      “…, on the fact that considerable sub-sections of the pro-Israel camp seemingly find it incredibly difficult to realize that the Palestinians exist, or the Palestinian consciousness exists.”

      Ever see the movie The Act Of Killing?

  4. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    March 29, 2014, 3:46 pm

    There was an old joke current years ago about I/P: A scorpion wants to cross a river in the MIDDLE EAST and asks a frog to carry him; but the frog says, no, you’ll sting me; but the scorpion says, No, I won’t because I want you to carry me over the river; so the frog takes him on his back and begins to swim across the river; at which point the scorpion stings him. As they are both going down, the frog asks the scorpion why he did it, and the scorpion says — it’s because this is the MIDDLE EAST.

    One could also say, it was the scorpion’s nature.

    OK, very funny. Who’s the scorpion? Israel? Or someone else?

    Anyhow, WaPo and the other speakers for power are reactionary because that’s who hold power. REACTIONARIES: REAL AWFUL PEOPLE but very powerful.

    Are they conservative? Sometimes. They are conservative in that they want the powerful to continue to hold (and increase) their power.

    But they never hesitate to adopt change (once thought to be the opposite of conservatism) when it might help them — the 2008 mortgage/derivatives BANK horrors, all modern science and engineering, lots of change. Most of the change is poisoning the plant, and the POWER folks are content because they are incapable of sympathy for unpowerful people and incapable of imagining that they themselves might lose power (as they would if climate change proceeds as expected and remains unopposed). The oligarchs hold all the power, all power of governance.

    Guess we non-oligarchs must suck it in.

    REACTIONARY are not holding to OLD ideas or OLD people. They are GRASPING people and what they are grasping is power today, damn the torpedoes of climate change and other environmental disasters.

  5. HarryLaw
    HarryLaw
    March 29, 2014, 4:23 pm

    Another way of looking at it is, because Zionists regard the “Land of Israel” as Israels sovereign territory, including Judea and Samaria, then Abbas does not, nor can he recognize Israels right to exist.

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      March 30, 2014, 12:03 am

      Israel and the State Department have brushed-off members of the Palestine Liberation Organization’s Executive Committee, which is the provisional government of the state of Palestine, when they have made that very point:

      We want to receive a map of the State of Israel which Israel wants us to accept. If the map will be based on the 1967 borders and will not include our land, our houses and East Jerusalem, we will be willing to recognize Israel according to the formulation of the government within the hour. It is important for us to know where are the borders of Israel and where are the borders of Palestine. Any formulation the Americans present – even asking us to call Israel the ‘Chinese State’ – we will agree to it, as long as we receive the 1967 borders. We have recognized Israel in the past, but Israel has not recognized the Palestinian state.

      http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/plo-chief-we-will-recognize-israel-in-return-for-1967-borders-1.318835

  6. kalithea
    kalithea
    March 29, 2014, 4:46 pm

    No one in the entire world, in the universe should ever recognize a racist, Apartheid state’s right to exist.

  7. March 29, 2014, 5:29 pm

    It is not exactly journalistic malpractice – as you nobly point out these people are almost all Jews – mostly everything they say about Israel or Palestine in WAPO or NYT could be designed to help Israel keep all the territories and support Israel at the expense of everything else – more or less. I am uncomfortable with the inherent dishonesty of this phenomenon, I have been watching this for 50 years, I have spoken to thousands of Jews and I am convinced that what I say is on average correct. We may be dealing with people who do not reveal their true feelings but there may be a tremendous conflict of interest at play. This is why the situation in the territories is where it is today – one step short of disaster.

  8. giladg
    giladg
    March 29, 2014, 5:30 pm

    Philip, as you have based your life’s work supporting the Palestinians, if one day Abbas openly admits to never having really recognized Israel’s right to exist in a way that you realize this, are you going to jump off a cliff?

    • Daniel Rich
      Daniel Rich
      March 29, 2014, 6:17 pm

      @ giladg,

      Q: … are you going to jump off a cliff?

      R: No worries. If he does, I’ll be waiting down there to catch him.

      And then what, giladg? Coming after the both of us?

      It’s very simple, if people gang up on you or hophmi, I’ll step up to the plate and defend you.

      ‘Human growth needs opposite views.’ – DR

    • Donald
      Donald
      March 29, 2014, 6:50 pm

      The phrase is Orwellian and deliberately so. Instead of talking about the basic human rights of Palestinians to live in their own homeland, instead they are asked to recognize the right of Israel to exist, which means the right to have ethnically cleansed the Palestinians.

      There’s also the legal issue–does Israel have a right to exist as a state like any other? But by putting the issue in this way, it submerges the issue of Palestinian rights. So I would expect every Palestinian who has acknowledged Israel’s right to exist to secretly or not so secretly resent the fact that they have to jump through this hoop when no one forces Israel to recognize the Palestinian right of return.

      • giladg
        giladg
        March 30, 2014, 1:26 am

        You don’t know what you are talking about Donald. One hundred and fifty years ago there were barely 7,000 Arabs in Jerusalem. Today there are over 300,000 and growing. How many years does it take for a population to double itself? Do the math Donald. Take your ethnic cleansing lie and go sell it to some other conflict in the world. It does not apply to the Israel/Palestine story.

      • Donald
        Donald
        March 30, 2014, 9:24 am

        A non-sequitur, giladg. The ethnic cleansing occurred over all of what is now Israel. I didn’t focus on Jerusalem. And even if I did, how did your response demonstrate anything except that some Palestinians have moved into Jerusalem over the years? If an illogical attempt at Nakba denial is the best you can do, perhaps you should find some other conflict to argue about.

      • giladg
        giladg
        March 30, 2014, 9:59 am

        Donald, you are right. Arabs moved to Jerusalem but not only from the immediate area but from as far as Syria, Iraq, Arabia and Egypt.
        The Arab population of Jerusalem continues to grow. This is true today. And if it is growing then there cannot be ethnic cleansing. What ethnic cleansing are you talking about? Is your single point of reference the 1948 War when the new State of Israel was attacked from all sides and had to defend itself with only 650,000 men, women and children? Why do you not demand that the Palestinians take as least some responsibility for what happened in 1948? For the past 66 years there has been no what you call “ethnic cleansing” and yet you beat this drum as if Palestinians were forced out of their homes this very morning. Enough with the lies and propaganda. The majority left on their own accord. They were told to leave to make the massacre of Jews a lot easier to then return after this deed was done. Peace loving people you lot are? Not.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        March 30, 2014, 11:39 am

        @giladg:
        “The majority left on their own accord. They were told to leave to make the massacre of Jews a lot easier to then return after this deed was done.”

        This blood libel is worse than any Holocaust denial, because at least Holocaust deniers don’t blame the Jews for their oppression and claim it was done by them as an attack on the Germans.

        That this garbage is permitted here is unfortunate.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        March 30, 2014, 12:30 pm

        Donald, you are right. Arabs moved to Jerusalem but not only from the immediate area but from as far as Syria, Iraq, Arabia

        Not to put too fine a point on it, but 150 years ago Syria, Iraq, and Jerusalem were integral parts of Ottoman Arabia. The same could be said for Egypt too before the Albanian mercenary took the throne and the British turned it into their own protectorate. It was the WWI allies that created those independent states you are talking about so anachronistically.

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        March 30, 2014, 10:30 am

        @giladg
        “One hundred and fifty years ago there were barely 7,000 Arabs in Jerusalem. Today there are over 300,000 and growing.”

        Really. Now go and do the math again, and tell us how many Palestinians live in the same geographical space that was known as Jerusalem 150 years ago. I think you’ll find it’s less than you claimed, since your thieving lot has stolen a whole lotta land to add to the original city.

      • American
        American
        March 31, 2014, 11:12 am

        ”The majority left on their own accord. They were told to leave to make the massacre of Jews a lot easier to then return after this deed was done. ” ..gilad

        Sounds like ‘Denial’ to me.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        March 31, 2014, 8:33 am

        According to Zionist mathematicians like giladg the genocide against Jews never occured, because of the Jewish population today.

    • kalithea
      kalithea
      March 29, 2014, 7:25 pm

      No. You will, and I’ll expect only one question from you: Which cliff and how high?

      Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Thursday said that the Palestinian people recognize Israel’s right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by “recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967.” The PA president’s comments came in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague.

      http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/We-recognize-Israel-they-should-recognize-Palestine

      • giladg
        giladg
        March 30, 2014, 1:35 am

        kalithea, what is missing is the reference to a Jewish State. This goes to the core of the Palestinian lie and propaganda machine. Recognizing Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, by the Palestinians and their Arab brothers, tells the Jews that the Arabs will then end the conflict, are willing to share sensitive sites, like the Temple Mount, which is the holiest site for Jews, and to accept that their be a Jewish state where the majority of its citizens will be Jewish. As Abbas has not said anything of the sort, I would suggest to you not to buy into his lies.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 30, 2014, 9:21 am

        “core of the Palestinian lie and propaganda machine”

        Justice is what that machine runs on, habibi
        Israel’s hasbara machine runs on fumes

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        March 31, 2014, 8:36 am

        giladg says: “Recognizing Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people …”

        And that includes how many further crimes against Nonjews?

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 31, 2014, 8:41 am

        >> … what is missing is the reference to a Jewish State.

        The Palestinians are right not to recognize Israel as a supremacist “Jewish State”.

        No-one should be expected or required to recognize or accept Israel as a supremacist “Jewish State”, or any other state as a supremacist state.

        No state has a right to exist as a supremacist state.

      • kalithea
        kalithea
        March 31, 2014, 9:33 am

        and to accept that their be a Jewish state where the majority of its citizens will be Jewish.

        Snap out of the delusion! No one should accept a racist, Apartheid state and the majority of the citizens will not be Jewish. There will be no Palestinian bantustans; there will be no Palestinian swiss cheese state after you’re all done stealing land with no sovereignty because the pretend PA government is merely a subcontractor, collaborator under Israel’s domain that keeps Israel from looking like an Apartheid organization. The PA is done, the two-state solution was done some time ago when the facts on the ground did it in; Israel as a Jewish state is done, and the sooner you’all get out of that deluded Ziozone; the sooner you can start working within the context of reality to the betterment of all parties.

        Now you’all say the Jews aren’t going anywhere; well neither are the Palestinians – get used to it! And let’s not forget the millions of refugees whom you’all relegated to a life of stateless misery. These people will be heard and justice will be heard in their regard.

      • traintosiberia
        traintosiberia
        March 31, 2014, 10:54 am

        Nine years ago, then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell delivered a speech on the Middle East in which he briefly called on Palestinians to recognize Israel as a “Jewish state.” Powell doesn’t recall how the phrase ended up in his speech, but David Ivry, then the Israeli ambassador to the United States, says he persuaded an aide to Powell to slip it in. –http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/01/AR2010100104177.html

    • talknic
      talknic
      March 30, 2014, 6:14 pm

      giladg ” if one day Abbas openly admits to never having really recognized Israel’s right to exist…”

      Numerous states in the UN do not recognize each other, they are never the less independent sovereign states. Recognition is not a prerequisite for statehood or ending occupation in order that Palestine be independent.

      Ending occupation is however, a prerequisite for independence and must occur before independence can be declared OR recognized. (see the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel for the expiry of the British occupation of Palestine http://pages.citebite.com/d2w2m2n6a3mad and; note the exact time cited in the Israeli Government plea for recognition http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf )

      Nor is recognition mandatory http://tinyurl.com/n6ftzn There is no legal basis what so ever for the demand!

      What IS required is for states to have “respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;” http://wp.me/PDB7k-6r#unscresolution242

      Israel forewarned it would not respect the law if it didn’t get its way in 1949 (after being accepted into the UN) http://wp.me/pDB7k-l5#israels-intentions
      Israel has:

      A) failed to have respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”
      B) illegally acquiring by war, Sovereign Syrian territory (Golan ’67). (Israel was requires, agreed and withdrew from Egyptian territory BEFORE peaceful relations were assumed)
      C) illegally claimed non-state territories belonging to the Palestinians, prior to the question of Palestine being resolved.
      D) illegally annexed “territories occupied”
      E) illegally instituted Israeli Civil Law in “territories occupied”
      F) illegally built Israeli civilian infrastructure and dwellings for illegal settlers in illegally acquired and illegally annexed “territories occupied”
      G) illegally sold illegally acquired and illegally annexed “territories occupied” to illegal settlers
      H) has yet to write a constitution. There has never been a legally elected Government in Israel, under a constitution http://pages.citebite.com/p2b0i7o9o6xlh
      i) shown that it cannot be trusted
      J) as a separate state, taken away the Jewish right to live in all of Palestine, limiting Israeli Jews to only Israeli Sovereign territory unless, they become ILLEGAL settlers or citizens o Palestine or Syria (in the Golan). Furthermore, under the 1948 Israeli military ordinance, still current, it is forbidden for Israeli citizens or residents to travel from Israel into the territories of a hostile entity. Contrary to the Hasbara, Israel prevented Israeli Jews and Israeli Muslims, Israeli Christians et al, from worshiping in Jerusalem from 1948 – 1967

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      March 30, 2014, 10:55 pm

      In 1948 Israel had 80,000 hardened warrior trained by Europeans and by American . Combined Atab forces numbered 40,000 and only 5000 of those were trained ( Jordanian forces by Britain ) . Israel started removing Palestinians from Nov 1947 which forced Egypt and Jordan to intervene for refugees were streaming into their territories.
      Sources. NYTimes archives

  9. Daniel Rich
    Daniel Rich
    March 29, 2014, 6:13 pm

    “… Rabin, and Arafat on the White House lawn, 1993”

    If body language is anything to go by, Rabin looked like a rape victim having to shake hands with the perp who did it… twice…

    I always [try to] watch imagery/vids in silence, so as not to be distracted by sound, because I knew and recognized my mom’s voice even before I was born. My auricle may be a flap on non-distinct tissue, but the thought processing grey matter that deals with all the input, is spongy, [and even fails at times], but overall yields great results when confronted with illogical BS.

    The Apartheid State and Peace? Yeah, my ff-ing ass.

  10. MHughes976
    MHughes976
    March 29, 2014, 6:52 pm

    The phrase ‘Israel’s right to exist’ is open to many interpretations. I don’t suppose that more than a very few Palestinians consider that the Zionist claims to the Holy Land were fully justified all along. There are many, obviously including Abbas, who would, in order to get an agreement, grant that there should for the foreseeable future be an Israel with a Jewish majority.
    Well, it’s a strange question, asking people to compare what they think is in Obama’s brain, Abbas’ brain and their own. Not to be taken too seriously, surely.

  11. RoHa
    RoHa
    March 29, 2014, 7:15 pm

    What is the point of this poll?
    What difference does it make what the WP readers think about what Obama thinks about what Abbas thinks about Israel’s “right to exist”?

  12. DICKERSON3870
    DICKERSON3870
    March 29, 2014, 7:46 pm

    RE “The Post is purposely conflating that long-ago demand by Israel, that Palestinians met, with the latest demand by Israel, that Palestine recognize Israel as a Jewish state, a trap set by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu so that the failure of the current talks will be blamed on the Palestinians, not the Israelis . . .” ~ Phil Weiss and James North

    MY COMMENT: “Forget it Jake guys; it’s Chinatown The Washington Post!

    SEE: “Why WPost’s Hiatt Should Be Fired”, by Robert Parry, ConsortiumNews.com, 3/19/13

    [EXCERPT] What is perhaps most remarkable about the tenth anniversary of President George W. Bush’s war of aggression in Iraq is that almost no one who aided and abetted that catastrophic and illegal decision has been held accountable in any meaningful way.

    That applies to Bush and his senior advisers who haven’t spent a single day inside a jail cell; it applies to Official Washington’s well-funded think tanks where neoconservatives still dominate; and it applies to the national news media where journalists and pundits who lost jobs for disseminating pro-war propaganda can be counted on one finger (Judith Miller of the New York Times).

    Yet, arguably the most egregious example of the news media failing to exact serious accountability for getting this major historical event wrong is the case of Fred Hiatt, who was the editorial-page editor of the Washington Post when it served as drum major for the invade-Iraq parade and who still holds the same prestigious position ten years later.

    How is that possible? I’ve seen senior news executives dissect the work of honest journalists searching for minor flaws in articles to justify destroying their careers (i.e. what the San Jose Mercury News did to Gary Webb over his courageous reporting on Nicaraguan Contra-cocaine trafficking in the 1990s).

    So how could Hiatt still have the same important job at the Washington Post after being catastrophically wrong about the justifications for going to war – and after smearing war critics who tried to expose some of Bush’s lies to the American people? How could the U.S. news media be so upside-down in its principles that honest journalists get fly-specked and fired, while dishonest ones get life-time job security?

    The short answer, I suppose, is that Hiatt was just doing what the Graham family, which still controls the newspaper, wanted done. From my days at Newsweek, which was then part of the Washington Post Company, I had seen this drift toward neoconservatism at the highest editorial ranks, the well-dressed and well-bred men preferred by publisher Katharine Graham and her son Donald. . .

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://consortiumnews.com/2013/08/06/why-wposts-hiatt-should-be-fired-2/

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      March 29, 2014, 7:56 pm

      P.S. ALSO SEE: “Media analysts in Syria debate have ties to defense contractors”, By Holly Yeager, washingtonpost.com, 10/10/13

      [EXCERPT] Military analysts who made frequent media appearances during the recent debate over a possible U.S. strike on Syria have ties to defense contractors and other firms with stakes in the outcome, according to a new study, but those links were rarely disclosed.
      The report by the Public Accountability Initiative, a nonprofit watchdog, details appearances by 22 commentators who spoke out during this summer’s Syria debate in large media outlets and currently have industry connections that the group says can pose conflicts of interest.
      In several media appearances in September, Stephen Hadley, a former national security adviser to President George W. Bush, was a forceful advocate for strikes. He told Bloomberg TV that Republicans should back the president’s use-of-force resolution and argued in a Washington Post op-ed that failure to punish Syrian President Bashar al-Assad for using chemical weapons against his own people would damage U.S. credibility if military action were threatened over Iran’s nuclear program.
      While Hadley’s role in the Bush administration was always noted, there was no mention of his ties to Raytheon, manufacturer of Tomahawk cruise missiles, which likely would have been fired from Navy destroyers stationed in the eastern Mediterranean in strikes against Syria. Hadley has been on the board of directors of Raytheon since 2009 and, according to a Securities and Exchange Commission filing from June included in the new report, owned 11,477 shares of Raytheon stock, now worth about $875,000. Hadley was also paid $128,500 in cash compensation by the company last year, according to a filing with the SEC.
      In one appearance, CNN noted that Hadley is a principal at RiceHadleyGates, an international strategic consulting firm based in Silicon Valley and Washington.
      Fred Hiatt, editorial page editor at The Post, said Hadley’s opinions in the newspaper’s op-ed commentary were not colored by his association with Raytheon.
      “More disclosure is generally better than less, but I’m confident that Hadley’s opinion piece, which was consistent with the worldview he has espoused for many years, was not influenced by any hypothetical, certainly marginal, impact to Raytheon’s bottom line,” Hiatt said in a statement. . .

      SOURCE – http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-10-10/politics/42896588_1_syria-debate-raytheon-stock-chemical-weapons

  13. ToivoS
    ToivoS
    March 29, 2014, 8:18 pm

    If Netanyahu has set up the Palestinians to , as Weiss and North write recognize Israel as a Jewish state, a trap set by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu so that the failure of the current talks will be blamed on the Palestinians, then he has failed in that.

    Today Israel has just made it clear that they are not releasing the last group of Palestinians Times of Israel . I think all agree that this is a deal breaker.

    • Walid
      Walid
      March 30, 2014, 2:54 am

      Toivo, your article repeated what had been made public over a week ago, that the Israeli cabinet had threatened the Palestinians that if by March 28th they wouldn’t extend the term of the 9-month period of negotiations that’s set to expire on April 28th, it would not release the final batch of prisoners. The Israeli cabinet made good on that threat and the hocus-pocus concluded at the AL summit a few days ago as well as Obama’s Saudi trip are part of these machinations to extend.

      The essence of this extension is to extend the agreed-to provision by the Palestinians to not go calling on the ICC while the negotiations are ongoing; pure Zionist evil. As usual, Abbas is expected to eventually cave-in under one of his regular alibis of having his hands tied. At the same time expect a timely donation of a few hundred millions from Saudia to help Abbas go where the US wants him to go, which is beyond the April 28th deadline. Maybe Netanyahu would also help him by temporarily suspending his recognition bullshit to get the talks extended. It’s all a game being played by everybody on the backs of the Palestinian people.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        March 30, 2014, 4:31 am

        It also serves the occupier well to prolong this charade….the longer these talks keep going, the more illegal settlements can be built, as we have seen.
        The recognition BS is simply yet another excuse for Bibi to throw yet another barrier, that will be unsurmountable for the US to get over, and besides, being recognized as a “Jewish State” has nothing to do with the “safety and security” of Israel. It is the safety and security of the long suffering, unarmed Palestinians, that deserves more concern.

  14. Kay24
    Kay24
    March 29, 2014, 11:10 pm

    The Washington Post’s rather dodgy method is indicative of the US controlled media’s method of operation. Skewed polls, keep the people in ignorance, give a very biased narrative of a conflict, and make the brutal occupier keep looking like the victim, so that naive Americans will not object to their tax payer money being sent there to enable the occupier. This is the devious zionist plan. The rest of the world, knows the truth, that is why Israel keeps company with North Korea, as one of the most disliked nations in the world, according to most polls in the US, the American people love, and show unwavering support, to one of the most despised and brutal military occupiers in the world, that keeps killing unarmed civilians, ruthlessly steal lands for illegal settlements, deprives their victims of electricity, water, and who live in open prisons.
    The irony is that the poor Palestinians are supposed to “recognize” their occupier, in every way, while their basic rights are not given.

  15. Maurice
    Maurice
    March 30, 2014, 4:38 am

    The 73% who believe President Obama is overestimating Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas’s willingness to recognize Israel’s right to exist have good reason on their side

    In his letter to the UN applying for Palestinian statehood Mahmoud Abbas based his claim on the 1947 UN partition resolution and in a speech last September 16, he confirmed that in his view the 1967 lines don’t define the true borders but that the real Palestinian borders were laid down in 1947 by the UN. Hamas as well as Omar Barghouti one of the leaders of the BDS movement as well publicly claim that they regard all of Israel including Tel Aviv as occupied Palestinian territory.

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      March 30, 2014, 10:02 am

      In his letter to the UN applying for Palestinian statehood Mahmoud Abbas based his claim on the 1947 UN partition resolution

      The letter requesting UN membership simply mentioned that General Assembly resolution 181 was one of many that envisioned a two state solution. He also mentioned Security Council resolution 1397, which cites the Arab Peace initiative, the Tenant Work Plan, and the Mitchell report, which are based upon the 4 June 1967 lines. So there’s not a damn thing there to cause a moment’s worth of concern that Abbas was being dishonest in the attachments to the application, which also said:

      In this connection, the State of Palestine affirms its commitment to the achievement of a just, lasting and comprehensive resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict based on the vision of two-States living side by side in peace and security, as endorsed by the United Nations Security Council and General Assembly and the international community as a whole and based on international law and all relevant United Nations resolutions.

      http://palestineun.org/membership-application/

      The draft resolution submitted by Palestine on upgrading it’s UN observer status reaffirmed Security Council resolution 1515, on the Middle East Quartet Performance based Road Map for the Two State Solution. FYI both the United States and Israel are in violation of the Phase II requirement to promote recognition of the State of Palestine. If that doesn’t make you skeptical, then you should probably stop questioning the sincerity of Abbas. http://palestineun.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/67-19-Status-of-Palestine.pdf

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      March 30, 2014, 10:10 am

      in a speech last September 16, he confirmed that in his view the 1967 lines don’t define the true borders but that the real Palestinian borders were laid down in 1947 by the UN.

      I believe that if the question is ever put to the ICJ, the court would confirm his opinion about that. But in the meantime, he and the Arab Peace initiative have both insisted that Palestine and the Arab states are willing forego that and accept a negotiated settlement based upon the 1967 lines. They’ve done that so many times that Abbas is beginning to sound like a broken record. Pull your head out of the sand and stop spreading propaganda.

  16. Hostage
    Hostage
    March 30, 2014, 5:44 am

    Journalistic malpractice: Washington Post suggests Abbas doesn’t recognize Israel’s right to exist

    On all fairness, you have to define what you mean by “Israel” in order to determine whether Abbas accepts its right to exist. If you mean the one envisioned by Sheldon Adelson and Likudniks, then probably not:

    The outspoken governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie, apologized to casino magnate and major political donor Sheldon Adelson over the weekend for using the term “occupied territories” during a speech to Jewish Republicans, the US news site Politico reported on Sunday.

    http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/New-Jersey-governor-apologizes-to-Sheldon-Adelson-over-occupied-territories-remark-346907

    • LeaNder
      LeaNder
      March 30, 2014, 7:21 am

      Hostage, I wonder what you think of Norman Finkelstein’s rather pessimistic: The End of Palestine? It’s Time to Sound Alarm.

      Especially the last five or six chapters. I cannot copy the passages.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 30, 2014, 9:29 am

        For my money an interesting mix of very plausible and not so plausible. I think that the United States has more at stake, much more, than Finkelstein thinks. The ME conflict is poisoning international relations to some extent at point after point. Russia’s desire to maintain influence in the ME is one of the reasons for the Ukraine/Crimea strife. Iran can’t be restored to a normal place, and its much needed oil exploited, without at least some semblance of a Palestine settlement, and these problems will only grow worse.
        That the intention is to sell out the Palestinians as far as possible is clear enough, and its clear enough that all the supporters of Palestine have at very least problems of their own.
        Yet every Kerry proposal that can be imagined leaves the Palestinians with one victory, ie still being there and having a right to be there under the new agreement which, because it will enshrine immense differences on the grounds of race, will be morally discredited from the start and more and more so with every year that goes by. That’s why the Israelis aren’t racing to accept any proposal, however huge the disproportion of land, water and military installations that it gives them.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 30, 2014, 10:13 am

        “That’s why the Israelis aren’t racing to accept any proposal, however huge the disproportion of land, water and military installations that it gives them.”

        That’s the only strategy the Israelis have- waste time, fake talks, never ever negotiate, deepen apartheid. And it’s so transparent.
        They have no long term vision. They expect the Shoah to pull them through the next century. And it won’t.

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        March 30, 2014, 10:33 am

        thanks, MH, I somewhat agree with you that the idea the wider realm of world affairs, which he thinks have pushed Palestine on the back-burner, is not correct. But that may have to do with my focus. ;)

        It also feels that the fervor for regime change, or the idea of putting a more compliant parties in place somewhere has suffered considerably since Euston Manifesto times as far as the left is concerned. And I definitively think that BDS has the advantage of diverting more attention on the Palestine conflict than he seems to think.

        On the other hand, he may well be correct that the extend to which a general change of the political mood actually changes politics takes much longer than any of us like.

        Basically this is my core question:

        If Palestinians sign on the bottom line, they will forfeit their essential rights under international law, especially because the UN Security Council and General Assembly will in short order ratify the result. The wall will no longer be illegal, it will become Israel’s internationally recognized border. The Kerry plan will render the most formidable of Palestinian weapons, international legitimacy and international law, null and void.

        If, as he suggests, Abbas signs whatever basic agreement, and if indeed the US has in fact accepted all basics of Israeli demands, then the whole process would mean Palestinans are indeed only set up to loose, this time by Kerry and Obama.

        In the comment section here I discovered somewhere that Israel demands another 9 month. I cannot help but this makes me feel it’s all ultimately about winning time. And whatever team Obama/Kerry’s intention they seem to be quite able to push them on past whatever envisioned deadline.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        March 30, 2014, 10:27 am

        Hostage, I wonder what you think of Norman Finkelstein’s rather pessimistic: The End of Palestine? It’s Time to Sound Alarm.

        I don’t know, I’ll have to read it. I’ve commented in the past that it was already too late to disentangle the infrastructure and natural resources in order to establish two viable states back in 1947.

        That’s why the UN adopted a plan for an economic union with right of transit,and common currency, rail, highway, & ports – all managed by a joint board of governors representing the two states and an international delegation representing the UN Corpus Separatum. If it was possible to establish a semi-sovereign and democratic Jewish state with a 50-50 Jewish/Arab population back then, I suppose it is still possible to establish a democratic Arab state with a 60-30 Arab/Jewish population if worst comes to worst today.

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        March 30, 2014, 11:04 am

        Thanks, Hostage, he seems to fear the Jordan option.

        But very, very interesting comment even if you have not read the article. ;)

        From the top of my head: I may not remember the specific comments you allude to, but maybe you influenced (or helped me?) much more by your general perspective, which I try follow, sometimes.

        At the moment M.E. history won against international law on my reading list, a Robinson effect, so now it is really hard to not see the constant struggle even by the most unlikely actors, e.g. Moshe Dayan who was forbidden to meet Hussein, to restrict attempts to not surrender peace for enlargement in Israel’s history.

        Norman Finkelstein: Of naysayers, it will be said (quoting Abba Eban’s tired phrase), “Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace.”

        Maybe his core problem is, he does not consider that times could change in this context. On the other hand I am a pessimist basically, concerning power.
        But since I love paradoxes, does he take Israel’s or the lobby’s power for too granted, or is this much more influenced by the fact he and Chomsky suggest that there is more than just the lobby involved and Israel knows how to play it? With M.Hughes in mind, consider this a cliff hanger. When is the deadline? Hasn’t it already passed?

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        March 31, 2014, 5:19 am

        @ LeaNder I don’t entirely agree with his rationale in the first part of the article. I think that delaying Palestine from joining the ICC and UN treaty organizations, like WIPO, in which the USA has a vital interest was a very urgent matter, without regard to legacy, Nobel prizes, or requests from other actors.

        The US cannot simply withdraw funding from most of them. It can’t afford to loose the political and trade leverage they provide. I also think that Abbas probably got written assurances from the US in exchange for the 9 month delay on unilateral actions that will require the US to abstain from blocking Palestinian actions. See US officials: We can’t stop Palestinian UN statehood bid if talks fail and note this: “Correction: A previous version of this story mistakenly quoted American officials as saying they “won’t be able to” stop the Palestinian UN bid should talks fail. The headline was now corrected to “can’t stop.” http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4504575,00.html

        There are a lot of smart people who have looked at the ICJ opinions in the Transjordan membership advisory case, where one of the Judges hinted that the issue of UN membership is a purely procedural matter to which the veto shouldn’t even apply under the terms of the Charter in the first place. So that question is ripe for a request for an advisory opinion. It’s difficult to see why Palestine should enjoy the protections the UN Charter affords to member states or how it can be construed as a threat to international peace and security, while Israeli membership is not. During the previous sessions, the US was challenging the statehood of Palestine, but the General Assembly has removed that option. So the US has no excuse to block Palestine’s membership except to claim it isn’t a peace loving state. It would be violating the terms of its own Road Map and Security Council resolution 1515 if it did so, i.e. the US would be blamed for killing its own “peace process” and the best partner it’s likely to ever find in Abbas.

        I agree with almost everything he says after the jump, but don’t think Jordan will ever make Palestine disappear.

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        March 31, 2014, 8:30 am

        Thanks Hostage, I have to reread it with your comment in mind, obviously the precise international law angles escape me. In spite of your efforts here. ;)

        Obviously the idea of grasping International Law without basics is much harder for someone without the necessary legal studies background. This awareness may lead me to push off the books you suggested. Although I kept the link. ;) Problem seems history tends to lead from books to books with specific angles. Admittedly, I start to worry about my “instinctive” responses to some Israeli historians of the conflict, especially the leading Israeli historian on Israel – Jordan and the Palestinians: Asher Susser, audiotape from 2013. I didn’t respond to this in the way I described but in a specific phrasing in his introduction his book from 2012.

        *************

        I made a mistake above. Hussein apparently may have been misguided by assuming that Moshe Dayan would have been more willing to give back the conquered West Bank. His basic love of the military may have influenced his take.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        March 31, 2014, 1:12 pm

        Hussein apparently may have been misguided by assuming that Moshe Dayan would have been more willing to give back the conquered West Bank.

        No, King Hussein was personally assured by President Johnson and Ambassador Goldberg to accept the draft of resolution 242, because the US and the international community would insist on Israel returning the bulk of the captured territory and preserving Jordan’s role and position in Jerusalem.

        You can read all about that in the volume of the FRUS which revealed the documentary history of the negotiations regarding resolution 242 in 2000. It’s available online https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19

        Much of it was already known (except for the exact extent to which Goldberg and Rostow had deceived the public about the subject), through works published by Donald Neff, et al.

    • MHughes976
      MHughes976
      March 30, 2014, 9:39 am

      Yes indeed – in the phrase ‘Israel’s right to exist’ only the particle ‘to’ is without serious ambiguity.
      No Palestinian can possibly agree that Zionism was right all along, that it’s all Eretz Israel from river to sea, or even that Palestinians have, as a result of intervening events, lost all rights in the pre-67 territories, though some of them would probably interpret these rights fairly minimally – financial compensation and all that. What they are prepared to do is sign, and sincerely accept, a treaty that recognises Israel, that is Israel pre-67 plus settlement blocks and a few more desirable things, as the state of affairs for the foreseeable future. But even as they sign it they will be saying in their hearts ‘Foreseeable future maybe, but not for ever and ever’. What the Zionists were saying at one stage, the Christian ones since at least the early 1600s.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 30, 2014, 1:00 pm

        Talking to myself somewhat…About ‘recognising right to exist as Jewish state’, what does it mean? Is there any guidance from Israeli sources?
        1. We recognise Israel as a fact – that Israel exists with a significant Jewish majority.
        2. We recognise ‘Israel by right’ – that the Zionist claim that Jewish people have and always have had an especial right to the former Palestine is valid, and that opposition to it was wrong from the start.
        3. We recognise ‘Israel by agreement’ – that Israel within a defined frontier both has, and has a right i) to maintain or ii) to maintain by means consistent with human rights, a Jewish majority either a) for a significant time b) for ever: hence that all further calls for Zionist ideas not to be applied will be abandoned for the Israeli area as now defined.
        1. is clearly not enough, 2. so ferocious that no Palestinian could even pretend to accept it, 3. full, perhaps dangerously full, of variation.
        Has Israel ever offered the parallel concession, ie to recognise ‘Palestine by agreement’, with (not merely the fact of a current non-Jewish majority) but some form of the right to maintain a non-Jewish majority and some pledge that all further calls for the implementation of Zionist ideas will be abandoned for the non-Israeli area now defined?

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 30, 2014, 1:12 pm

        What if 90% of secular educated jews left ?Would the palestinians still have to kneel before a failed state run by jews?
        The palestinians are right to reject this request. Israel has to stew in the consequences of all the crap decisions the bots made.

  17. Trevor Brown
    Trevor Brown
    March 30, 2014, 10:02 am

    The free and routine use of the term Nakba by bloggers, Palestinians and other Arabs, tells us that the events of 1947-1948 were catastrophes and disasters of undescribable horror and proportion. The Nakba was the legal creation of the Jewish State of Israel by the world. As long as the term continued to be used and Palestinian children are taught this, Israel has not been recognized. If the Arabas had not attacked the new State of Israel in 1948, there would be two countries where Israel is today, one Jewish (and by the way, including some Arabs) and one Arab (the term Palestine was not used as a separate Arab entity until about 1963). The Arab State would be Judenfrei–it would allow no Jews, just as Jordan has none, Gaza has none and just as Abbas says the fiuture “Palestinian State” will have no Jews.

    Get the facts right for a change.

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      March 30, 2014, 5:20 pm

      The Nakba was the legal creation of the Jewish State of Israel by the world.

      That’s a violation of the comment rules here. The Nakba was an illegal campaign of ethnic cleansing and pillaging of private and state property by Zionists.

      FYI, during a conference in 1949 on payment of the public debts of Mandate Palestine, Israel refused to comply with the terms regarding transfer of sovereignty contained in Article 28 of the Palestine Mandate and UN resolution 181(II). Its officials claimed that Israel was created by its own act of secession, not by the UN or “the world”. They claimed Israel was not in any sense the successor of the former mandated state named in those legal instruments and did not inherit its obligations or treaty commitments. See D.P. O’Connell author “The Law of State Succession”, Volume V of the Cambridge Studies in International and Comparative Law, 1956, Hersh Lauterpacht editor, pages 10-11, and 178

      (the term Palestine was not used as a separate Arab entity until about 1963).

      That’s false and has been debunked here many, many times. See the link to the pages long 1914 circular entitled “General Summons to Palestinians – Beware Zionist Danger” signed anonymously by “a Palestinian” in my survey of historical material here: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/02/slaughter-settler-spokesman.html/comment-page-1#comment-642248

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 30, 2014, 5:27 pm

        We do need some enforcement of the stated rule!!

    • joer
      joer
      March 30, 2014, 5:39 pm

      Trevor:
      That is an interesting recap of the creation of Israel. When I was growing up, two details were included in that story that you omitted: 1. The Jews begged the Arabs to stay. 2. Despite this, the Arabs insisted on leaving-as if by a miracle-presumably so they wouldn’t be in the way while the 843 Arab armies massacred the Jews. Why do you think those details have been quietly dropped from Zionist folktales?

    • eljay
      eljay
      March 30, 2014, 6:04 pm

      >> The Nakba was the legal creation of the Jewish State of Israel by the world.

      “The world” did not create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine – Zio-supremacist Jews did that.

      The Nakba – the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and lands – was part of that supremacist project.

      >> … Israel has not been recognized.

      Israel has been recognized. What has not been recognized – what should never be recognized – is supremacist “Jewish State”. No state has a right to exist as a supremacist state.

      >> If the Arabas had not attacked the new State of Israel in 1948 …

      The “Arabas” did not attack Israel in 1948.

      >> … just as Abbas says the fiuture “Palestinian State” will have no Jews.

      He said the state will have no Israelis.

      >> Get the facts right for a change.

      You’ve managed to generate a lot of bullshit in only your second post here on MW. Please do try to get the facts straight for a change.

    • hungrydave
      hungrydave
      March 30, 2014, 6:29 pm

      you should get your facts straight, he said ‘no Israeli’s’ not ‘no jews’

    • talknic
      talknic
      March 30, 2014, 8:19 pm

      @ Trevor Brown “The Nakba was the legal creation of the Jewish State of Israel by the world”

      Wrong. The UN gave a representative body of Jewish people the right to declare a state according to the conditions outlined in UNGA re 181 which was accepted as binding by the Jewish Agency on March 5th 1948 at the UNSC http://wp.me/pDB7k-Yx

      The Jewish People’s Council created the State of Israel http://pages.citebite.com/d2w2m2n6a3mad

      It was recognized by the majority of the International Community of Nations as it asked to be recognized ” within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf BEFORE being recommended by the UNSC for acceptance into the UN. Under the terms accepted by the Jewish Agency the Nakba was illegal.

      Israel has ignored the majority of the conditions outlined in UNGA res 181 and it has ignored its own Declaration of Independent statehood http://pages.citebite.com/a2t5q7e1l5qrp

      In fact Israel has never had a legally elected government, under a constitution http://pages.citebite.com/p2b0i7o9o6xlh

      “As long as the term continued to be used and Palestinian children are taught this, Israel has not been recognized”

      Wrong. Israel was recognized as it asked to be recognized (ibid) by a majority of the International Community of Nations before being recommended by the UNSC for admittance to the UN

      “If the Arabas had not attacked the new State of Israel in 1948”

      Wrong. There are no UNSC resolutions against any Arab state for any attack on Israel. No sovereign Israeli soil was invaded. There were Jewish forces in territories outside the State of Israel on the day Israeli independence took effect. The Arab States lodged a declaration with the UNSC (in accordance with Chapt VII) outlining their intention and invaded “Palestine” http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/MFADocuments/Yearbook1/Pages/5%20Arab%20League%20declaration%20on%20the%20invasion%20of%20Pales.aspx after Israel was declared independent of Palestine. As regional Powers they had the right to attempt to expel foreign forces from what remained of Palestine

      “there would be two countries where Israel is today”

      Wrong. There are already two states. The State of Israel, recognized before being admitted to the UN and the state of Palestine recognized by the majority of the worlds states and the UN

      “one Jewish (and by the way, including some Arabs) “

      At least 47% Arabs by 1950 http://wp.me/pDB7k-19Y

      “(the term Palestine was not used as a separate Arab entity until about 1963)”

      Wrong. In fact the Israeli Government officially stated it was occupying territory “outside the State of Israel” ..”in Palestine” May 22nd 1948 http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk

      ” The Arab State would be Judenfrei–it would allow no Jews”

      Wrong Abbas said it would be Israeli free

      ” just as Jordan has none”

      Wrong. Read the Jordan/Israel Peace Treaty

      “Gaza has none”

      So what? States at war normally inter or expel foreign nationals and possible 5th columnists. They also normally allow their return.

      ” just as Abbas says the fiuture “Palestinian State” will have no Jews”

      Wrong. He said no Israelis.

      “Get the facts right for a change”

      Talking to yourself pal?

  18. joer
    joer
    March 30, 2014, 11:31 am

    So let’s see: several hundred uninterested, uninformed people are interrupted at dinner and asked to judge Obama’s ability to read Abbas’s mind about what he would do if he had the power to confer on Israel the right to exist. And the results are useful in what way?

    First of all, Abbas is President of the PA and in the election that chooses that position, Israel and the United States get 51% of the vote. Abbas will be amiable to the people who installed him in office, or not only will he be removed from the presidency, he very likely will be removed from the planet. If we want to know what the Palestinian people want, we have to listen to the government THEY elected.

    And honestly, I don’t know why the Palestinian side always gets sucked into debating Israel this way the conflict is articulated. What does it mean? It sounds like there’s a court somewhere deciding whether to drop an atom bomb on Israel.

  19. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    March 30, 2014, 11:01 pm

    I don’t recognize you as the police officer but here is my driver’s license and registration and insurance proof. You want to search my car? I don’t recognize you as police officer with that right .but I will open my trunk.
    I don’t recognize you as police officer but I have paid my last ticket given by one of you wearing same uniforms.
    Police Officer – I will ask the judge and force him to stop you using the road by car or bus or train or on feet. You don’t recognize me .
    But I never said that.
    Police- well .it seems so . That’s what you do. Do nt you?

  20. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    March 31, 2014, 8:52 am

    giladg.

    Is Russia and Ukraine talking despite what just happened and despite what Russia envisions about the future of the make- up of Ukraine?
    Is US and Russia talking despite what US demands and Russia disagreeing?
    Did Ukranian national in Crimea lose all rights like voting and water supply in Crimea
    despite their refusal to accept the new reality?
    Does the Mexican-descent Americans face the fate of WB Palestinian ? Mexico does not recognize US absorption of southern states. Does US allow legal immigration to US from Mexico to come and settle in US? Did US allow amnesty to millions of Mexicans?
    Following partition of India, did India throw out the Muslim? Did China after grabbing Tibet, turn Tibetans into 2nd class citizen?
    Is Scottish losing rights in UK for their refusal to admit the UK the way the British establishment want? Are they losing right for demanding dissolution of UK and independence of Scotland?

  21. Jeff Levy
    Jeff Levy
    April 1, 2014, 8:26 am

    There is no such thing in international law, US law, or logic as a “right to exist.”

    Once a person exists, he or she may be deemed to have certain rights.

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