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66 years ago today 42 members of my family were slaughtered in Deir Yassin

Israel/Palestine
on 107 Comments
(photo: Dina Elmuti)

Tareq Radi and his great-grandfather’s home. 2013, Deir Yassin (photo: Dina Elmuti)

On April 9, 1948, well before dawn, the peaceful village of Deir Yassin awoke to the sound of gunfire as the genocidal Zionist organizations known as the Stern Gang and Irgun invaded. All too quickly the Zionist forces had entered our home. My great-great-grandmother and her grandchildren were forced to witness as a female commando riddled my great-uncle’s body with bullets.  Our home had forever become his tomb and happy memories vanished as quickly as his last breath.

One by one the men of the village were executed and the women captured.  Hours later, my six-year-old great-aunt, Naziha, was finally reunited with her mother, burdened with the task of delivering the ominous fate of her grandmother and younger brother.

Like any mother, my great-grandmother refused to accept their fates without confirmation, she screamed and begged the soldiers to take her to her child. Eventually, the soldier vaingloriously conceded.

She arrived to her familiar street only to discover her mother’s bloodstained body and her two-year old son motionless beside her. His young fragile body unsoiled. As my great-grandmother reached for his tiny hand, the Zionist soldier pointed his gun at her ordering her to leave her son or she would be shot. Until this day we do not know whether my uncle Omar had already been murdered or was left to die. By that afternoon our village had been destroyed, our women humiliated, and we had lost forty-two members of our family.

On April 9, 1948, sixty-six years ago today, the Stern Gang and Irgun did not ask anyone in my family to have a dialogue as they massacred our village.

Again, in 1967, my family had to uproot their lives, as Jericho was seized by the Zionist forces. The settlers who had taken my mother’s home did not ask for a dialogue with the people whose pictures were on the wall.

Today, I am met with hostile criticism, for I refuse to normalize with those who insist on benefiting from the dispossession of my people and the most tragic event in my family’s history.

My father is from a village named Kufr’Ana near the city of Jaffa.
My mother is from the village of Deir Yassin, a municipality of Jerusalem.

And I was born in East Brunswick, New Jersey…

Despite my displacement, I eternally yearn for the sweet nectar of justice, like that of a Jaffa orange, until then my adversaries will only meet the bitter taste of the Yassini almond.

Tareq Radi
About Tareq Radi

Tareq Radi is a Palestinian-American organizer based in Washington, DC and founding member of GMU's Students Against Israeli Apartheid (SAIA). He has a B.S in Finance from George Mason University, and hopes to research Palestine's political economy.

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107 Responses

  1. Woody Tanaka
    Woody Tanaka
    April 9, 2014, 1:37 pm

    May you have justice and peace and may those who committed this act of genocide suffer their just punishment. May they never know a moment’s peace until that justice is done.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      Stephen Shenfield
      April 9, 2014, 8:31 pm

      Some of those who committed these atrocities as youngsters in the Zionist armed formations must still be alive, but the commanders, who bore the heaviest responsibility, Begin and others of his generation, are already dead. Those who believe there is a hell may find some consolation in the thought that that is where they now are. The most others can hope for is that their names will be dishonored, but I think that is well worth doing.

  2. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    April 9, 2014, 2:14 pm

    Shall they murder and inherit?

  3. MHughes976
    MHughes976
    April 9, 2014, 2:24 pm

    And will the heirs of the dispossessed never return?

  4. adele
    adele
    April 9, 2014, 2:44 pm

    Thank you for sharing with us your families’ story Tariq. Memories such as these pass between generations and leaves an indelible pain.

    I am glad that you addressed ‘Dialogue’, for I have noticed recently an increased trend amongst zionist propagandists in deploying the tactic of ‘dialogue’, they mention it here on this site, and at pro-Palestinian events they stand up during the question period and say “We need dialogue”. As if after all these years and after all the zionists’ crimes all of sudden, magically ‘dialogue’ is the key to peace, meanwhile ignoring/condoning/accepting the Israeli state crimes committed daily. They are insincere. They are trying to make themselves presentable to the world, trying to appear as if they are the rational, reasonable and peace-loving side in this conflict.
    Words are cheap, and the Zionists’ actions are the farthest thing from good will. At the end of the day everyone must pay the consequences for their actions, and the colonialist Zionists must account for their crimes.

    • JeffB
      JeffB
      April 10, 2014, 8:48 am

      @adele

      As if after all these years and after all the zionists’ crimes all of sudden, magically ‘dialogue’ is the key to peace, meanwhile ignoring/condoning/accepting the Israeli state crimes committed daily. They are insincere. They are trying to make themselves presentable to the world, trying to appear as if they are the rational, reasonable and peace-loving side in this conflict.

      I find BDS’ constant criticism of apartheid while attacking “normalization”. Denormalization is just an extreme form of apartheid an unwillingness to engage in even neighborly relations. One can advocate for people to be working / living together with the restrictions pulled where they gradually resolve problem. A process of making peace and developing warm relationships. Or one can advocate for a state of total enmity where they don’t even attempt to converse and there is just a shoot on sight type relationship. Most human groups aim towards normalization with most other human groups. That’s considered a desirable state and is how wars end. With something like a flu virus they aim towards a total denormalized environment since dialogue is impossible. For flu virus to live humans must suffer we understand our objectives are entirely at odds with one another.

      Their are factions on both sides who want to establish peaceful relationship. And their are factions on both sides who want the annihilation of the other. The people who did Deir Yassin were the people who felt betrayed by 1936-9 war which had been an earlier attempt at denormalization somewhat in reaction to the normalization that had occurred during as a result of the early 1930s citrus boom. The intelligence on Arab villages needed for the ethnic cleansing program came from veterans of that earlier war. The alternative to Deir Yassin is normalization. Denormalization is the father of Deir Yassin.

      There is no propaganda here. It is just simple fact. People can talk problems out or shoot them out. And if they aren’t talking they are usually shooting.

      • puppies
        puppies
        April 10, 2014, 12:53 pm

        @jeff – “People can talk problems out or shoot them out.”

        Well, the Zionists started full-scale war against the Palestinians in 11/1947 and never stopped it. You don’t talk to the enemy during a war. Usually there are severe penalties for talking instead of fighting. During WW2 in occupied Europe, collaborators with the Nazis were summarily executed.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        April 11, 2014, 8:05 am

        @puppies

        Well, the Zionists started full-scale war against the Palestinians in 11/1947 and never stopped it. You don’t talk to the enemy during a war. Usually there are severe penalties for talking instead of fighting. During WW2 in occupied Europe, collaborators with the Nazis were summarily executed.

        There was never a full scale war. The large population war started in ’36 and was started by the Palestinians who lost by ’39. As for not talking to enemies during war, if the war is still on then don’t complain about civil rights violations. Your arguments runs both ways, you can’t have it both ways either the Palestinians are legitimate inhabitants of the Israeli state or they are hostiles. If you want them to be hostiles than the Israelis are fully within their rights to repel them, survival is an imperative.

      • talknic
        talknic
        April 11, 2014, 9:59 am

        JeffB “There was never a full scale war”

        The Government of Israel disagrees with you

        “The large population war started in ’36 ..”

        1897 with the Jewish COLONIAL Trust

        “As for not talking to enemies during war, if the war is still on then don’t complain about civil rights violations”

        Small matter of the Laws of war and subsequent conventions.

        “Your arguments runs both ways, you can’t have it both ways either “

        Let’s read you argument
        “the Palestinians are legitimate inhabitants of the Israeli state or they are hostiles

        Israel in Palestinian territory “outside the State of Israel” .. “in Palestine” is the invader. Invasion is hostile..

        ” the Israelis are fully within their rights to repel them, survival is an imperative”

        Israel hasn’t fought for survival, it’s fought in non-Israeli territory to illegally acquire non-Israeli territory.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 11, 2014, 10:15 am

        “As for not talking to enemies during war, if the war is still on then don’t complain about civil rights violations”

        Small matter of the Laws of war and subsequent conventions.

        “Your arguments runs both ways, you can’t have it both ways either “

        This is nothing but the usual Zionist bullshit. The ICJ devoted considerable space in its 2004 advisory opinion to debunking the myth that fundamental human rights and human rights conventions do not apply during armed conflicts and that certain rights are never subject to any derogation.

        If you want them to be hostiles than the Israelis are fully within their rights to repel them, survival is an imperative.

        On a fundamental level, Israel never had any right to go to war in order to repel indigenous people and there was no Israeli state in 1947 when the ethnic cleansing mentioned in this article began, other than a state of illegality or criminality.

      • puppies
        puppies
        April 11, 2014, 2:00 pm

        @talknic – All-out war started in November 47 and today’s “Israel” state area recognized by the colonial powers, even the one proposed for partition, are parts of Palestine in war. That partition declaration was rejected by the Palestinian public, who was never given the time or means to formally institute a representative body. So you are talking through your hat and giving away rights that are not yours to give.
        As for Jeff’s “hostiles” –that is exactly how the illegal Zionist entity is behaving towards its own “citizens” anyway. In fact, between German-occupied Milan in 44 and Zionist-occupied Nazareth since 1947, the former offered more freedom to the local population.

      • puppies
        puppies
        April 11, 2014, 2:05 pm

        @Jeff – Prior to 47, you are only talking about the genocidal action by infiltrated colonials under a British mandate that grossly failed its official job. Try to stay away from the sauce.

      • adele
        adele
        April 10, 2014, 3:02 pm

        What you always wanted to know about Zionist Propaganda Tools & their true meaning:
        emphasizing dialogue = Israel is starting to feel the pressure
        trying to present the conflict as balanced = whitewashing zionist colonialist crimes
        blaming your victims = easing the implementation of ethnic cleansing
        neighborly relations = steal land & water, displace the legal inhabitants, shoot and kill any resistors, bomb a besieged territory, confiscate homes, settler-only roads, destroy olive groves that ffarming amilies depend on, and the list goes on.

        You want dialogue JeffB? Look in the mirror and tell yourself that you are aiding and abetting the murder of people, the destruction of the theft of their lands & livelihood all because they aren’t Jewish, and that you willingly condone these actions so that you can safeguard your access to the spoils of colonialist crimes.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        April 11, 2014, 8:08 am

        @adele

        so that you can safeguard your access to the spoils of colonialist crimes.

        Every country is the spoils of colonialist crimes. Every species alive is the spoils of colonialist crimes. The air you are breathing while you are reading my post is the spoils of the plants having colonized this planet from the anaerobic bacteria. There is no getting away from the spoils.

      • adele
        adele
        April 11, 2014, 9:49 am

        Oh goodie, JeffB, I like that world where murder is justified and no one is punished. Yippee. Let’s keep on colonialising, let’s keep on holocausting, let’s keep on genociding. Chuck the laws of civil society out the window, burn all the land deeds.

        JeffB’s logic: Pointing to unsavory practices of the past to justify the crimes of zionism. So if slavery was once a common practice, and many are byproducts of it in one way or another why shouldn’t it be tolerated today? Why should women have the vote today? Why should there be child labor laws today?

        In such a world Jeffie that you condone there is no DIALOGUE dear. Sorry to spoil your day.

      • talknic
        talknic
        April 11, 2014, 9:52 am

        JeffB “Every country is the spoils of colonialist crimes”

        Palestine?

        BTW The great colonizers stopped last century pal. Israel continues today.

        ” Every species alive is the spoils of colonialist crimes. The air you are breathing while you are reading my post is the spoils of the plants having colonized this planet from the anaerobic bacteria. There is no getting away from the spoils”

        OK have it your way, might is right, when someone f#cks you over, tough pal

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 11, 2014, 7:36 am

        I find BDS’ constant criticism of apartheid while attacking “normalization”. Denormalization is just an extreme form of apartheid an unwillingness to engage in even neighborly relations.

        Apartheid consists of a laundry list of inhuman acts, that are considered a crime against humanity, when perpetrated systematically for the purpose of dominating members of a racial, national, or ethnic group. The notion that relations can be “normalized” and “neighborly”, while the state and its citizens are still systematically violating fundamental human rights, and committing a crime against humanity in the process, is far-fetched and extremely convoluted logic. Around these parts, attempts to reframe the debate using “odd”, “strange”, or “illogical” lines of argumentation that blame the victim are pretty quickly denounced as misguided pilpul.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        April 11, 2014, 8:09 am

        @Hostage

        The notion that relations can be “normalized” and “neighborly”, while the state and its citizens are still systematically violating fundamental human rights, and committing a crime against humanity in the process, is far-fetched and extremely convoluted logic.

        You make peace with enemies not friends. Dialogue comes first.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 11, 2014, 9:17 am

        You make peace with enemies not friends. Dialogue comes first.

        No, the recognition of the need to end armed hostilities and criminal wrongdoing comes first. Nobody is going to be neighborly while the IDF and Jewish settlers are literally stealing the land out from under their feet and driving them into impoverished Bantustans, while occasionally turning their streets into rivers of blood and hauling their kids off to prison in the middle of the night. To argue otherwise only demonstrates that you are a sociopath who is detached from reality.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 11, 2014, 9:23 am

        >> You make peace with enemies not friends. Dialogue comes first.

        Ah, yes, the victim chained in the rapist’s bunker is supposed to “dialog” with her captor and oppressor even as he continues to physically and sexually assault her. To insist that he first release her and turn himself in is “maximalist” and “destabilizing”. Why does this horrible woman hate that nice man so much?!

      • talknic
        talknic
        April 11, 2014, 9:44 am

        @ JeffB

        @Hostage
        The notion that relations can be “normalized” and “neighborly”, while the state and its citizens are still systematically violating fundamental human rights, and committing a crime against humanity in the process, is far-fetched and extremely convoluted logic.

        You make peace with enemies not friends.

        Adhering to the law is unilateral.

        Dialogue comes first

        .

        One doesn’t have to have dialogue or recognize each other OR have a peace treaty. None are mandatory or even necessary for peace. Under the UN Charter and International Law, all states are obliged however to adhere to the law and have “respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State .. and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 11, 2014, 9:44 am

        You make peace with enemies not friends. Dialogue comes first.

        P.S. After Arafat had given up 78 percent of Palestine, recognized Israel and talked until he was blue in the face for 5 years, the crime of apartheid only became more deeply entrenched and widespread. The Netanyahu regime didn’t encircle the Muqata with tanks because of any terror attacks, it did so in order to dominate and oppress the Palestinians and prevent them from exercising their right to statehood. The war crimes related to Israel transferring portions of its population to Palestine have multiplied dramatically during this latest round of talks. You don’t normalize criminality, you prosecute it.

      • Walid
        Walid
        April 11, 2014, 8:21 am

        “Denormalization is the father of Deir Yassin.”

        Normalization or an attempt at reaching it resulted in screwing the Palestinians and bringing them to where they are now with less land and less water; it has been the Palestinians’ biggest shortcoming. It’s regrettable that the Arabs are now rushing into it while Israel continues its oppression of the Palestinians.

  5. DaBakr
    DaBakr
    April 9, 2014, 2:56 pm

    And will the Arabs ever admit there were Arab combatants and soldiers in Dier Y that were firing on the Jewish fighters, killing several, and putting a slightly different spin on this supposedly totally unprovoked attack? Nobody has to claim there weren’t atrocities committed during this war but attacking under fire versus going in without a single act of hostility are two completely different cases. If the author and victim of this tragedy claims the former and takes any dispute of these facts as “hostility” it is on him. If on the other hand, people deride his entire story as a ‘myth’ and never having happened and told only to gain sympathy, then yes, that is on them, and it is hostile.

    • Nevada Ned
      Nevada Ned
      April 9, 2014, 3:52 pm

      Let’s be clear about who massacred whom.

      Your attempt to put “a slightly different spin” on the massacre will fail.

      The massacre at Yassin Deir was part of Plan Dalit, the Israeli plan to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. The plan was carried out, and in its own terms was successful: about 2/3 of the Palestinians were expelledi the Nakba. Those Palestinians who remained were subjected to systematic racial discrimination.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        April 9, 2014, 11:38 pm

        They always try to put a “slightly different spin” on everything negative but true, that comes up about about this poisonous nation. Perhaps they are under the illusion that we are simpletons, who believe them, and that we are unable to get to the truth, from credible sources, easily on the internet.
        The Jewish terrorists, were responsible for the slaughter of many innocents, and their zionist leaders, like Sharon, responsible for state sanctioned massacres in Sabra, Shatila, and Qibya. Yet, the mindless minions have the nerve to come here, and blame the other side, while they still keep ethnically cleansing those who were there before them.
        I have never seen such a evil bunch of human beings, who lie, deceive, provoke, massacre, steal, control, punish, and are basically mean, and then with wide eyed astonishment, cry victim. Never.

      • Naftush
        Naftush
        April 10, 2014, 3:22 am

        “Plan Dalit” (sic) was in no way an ethnic cleansing program. Read it. Read Benny Morris’ references to it. No discussion of Plan Dalet can overlook the implications of civilians accommodating, collaborating with, aiding, and abetting belligerent forces.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 10, 2014, 9:14 am

        “Plan Dalit” (sic) was in no way an ethnic cleansing program. Read it.

        I have. I take it you have no military training or formal education on the subject of the laws and customs of land warfare. The plan explicitly called for terror operations in cities and probes or unprovoked attacks against Arab population centers, and in the cases of those which defended themselves, it required that the inhabitants be driven beyond the borders of the Hebrew State.

        It also amounts to a plan for a war of aggression against the Arab state by a fifth column working in tandem with the militias of the Jewish state. The explicit objectives were to gain control of the territory in and around the Jewish settlements in the Arab state, in order to allow the settlements freedom of military activity. That was to be accomplished by destroying or occupying legitimate Arab defense installations located inside the Arab state through the use of unprovoked attacks. At the time this was all happening the Jewish militias were under an obligation contained in resolution 181(II) to only use military force for internal security and to prevent border clashes. The resolution recited the prohibition against the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of “any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations”.

        This portion of Plan Dalet can only be described as an operational plan for premeditated ethnic cleansing:

        4. Mounting operations against enemy population centers located inside or near our defensive system in order to prevent them from being used as bases by an active armed force. These operations can be divided into the following categories:

        Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously.

        Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state.

        The villages which are emptied in the manner described above must be included in the fixed defensive system and must be fortified as necessary.

        http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Plan_Dalet.html

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        April 10, 2014, 10:47 am

        As is always the case…thank you Hostage

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 10, 2014, 11:28 am

        As is always the case…thank you Hostage

        Thank you. I’d pay MW for the privilege of hanging out here with all of you, even if the articles weren’t included in the bargain;-)

      • Dutch
        Dutch
        April 10, 2014, 7:55 pm

        See table 4 for the operations within Plan Dalet:
        http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Right-Of-Return/Story433.html

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      April 9, 2014, 4:01 pm

      I’d say this consitutes Nakba denial. But the zios never get booted for it, so I don’t know why there’s even a rule against it (or any of the other things, too)

      • jenin
        jenin
        April 9, 2014, 6:07 pm

        These people are so shameless and despicable. They have no qualms about denying that Palestinians were killed to pave the way for the great state of Israel (sarcasm), or justifying those deaths, but will call someone anti-Semitic simply for advocating enforcement of international law in the occupied territories or boycotting Israeli products or criticizing Israel’s actions. It’s really unbelievable. I am fed up with trying to talk to or reason with the likes of Dabakr.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        April 9, 2014, 7:49 pm

        well-you may be fed up but its Arab Jews who are going to be a very big part of whatever ‘treaty’ is negotiated so it is not going to help you unless you get over it. Arab Jews come from similar cultural foundations as the Palestinians and its hard to argue there is no context to the ‘war of ideas’. I suppose I can’t say anything more since at least 3 of my rebuttals were nixed and I won’t be surprised if this one is as well. as I said-in the ‘war of ideas’ people like to play in their own sandbox. that is not how these kinds of wars are ended.

        also-as long as I’m being ‘banned’ FYI:
        1) I think debka is hysterical
        2) questioning events leading up to an event is not denying the Palestinian Nakba. If it matters: There was a Palestinian Catastrophe in 1948-9. It is not difficult to say the obvious, even if one is a dedicated Zionist

      • adele
        adele
        April 10, 2014, 4:07 pm

        Wars can’t end debakr if you keep stealing the sand in my sandbox and then trying to kick me out of it.

      • Naftush
        Naftush
        April 10, 2014, 3:26 am

        It isn’t Nakba denial to state accurately that Deir Yassin, overlooking the main road into Western Jerusalem, was occupied by irregulars and participated in belligerency, partly condoned by inhabitants. If a “zio” gets booted for saying that, then this forum has metamorphosed from a war of ideas into a war on ideas and on facts.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 10, 2014, 9:26 am

        It isn’t Nakba denial to state accurately that Deir Yassin, overlooking the main road into Western Jerusalem, was occupied by irregulars and participated in belligerency, partly condoned by inhabitants.

        In 1986, the ‘Maarachot’, a publication of the Israel Defense Army Press in Tel Aviv, said that didn’t happen. The contemporary accounts of the Lehi Journal ‘Ma’as’ in 1948 also claimed the inhabitants had not violated their non-aggression agreement with their Jewish neighbors, e.g. http://mondoweiss.net/2014/04/members-family-slaughtered.html/comment-page-1#comment-657463

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        April 10, 2014, 10:03 am

        “It isn’t Nakba denial to state accurately that Deir Yassin, overlooking the main road into Western Jerusalem, was occupied by irregulars and participated in belligerency, partly condoned by inhabitants.”

        Yes, it is, because that is a well debunked lie. It is the equivalent of suggesting that the Holocaust of the Jews was justified because before it began, the Jews of Europe unanimously voted to try to slaughter all the Germans out of anti-Aryan hate and that, thus, the Germans were merely defending themselves. Such an assertion should get one banned, as should your lies trying to blame those murdered by the Jewish terrorists for their own murder.

      • CloakAndDagger
        CloakAndDagger
        April 11, 2014, 10:26 am

        The trolls are out in force these days. Really hard to read the threads or comment on the original topic without it all getting derailed into total pollution. This is reducing the usefulness of MW, and I am surprised that the moderators are allowing this to happen. It is obvious that many of these posters are here full time to do only that, like JeffB, Hophme, and DaBakr. It must pay well, since it is a crap job.

        I am impressed that people like Hostage and talknic can continue to respond civilly and keep debunking their BS assertions over and over. They have far more patience than I could ever hope to have.

        If the moderators won’t ban them, perhaps the rest of us should – by BDS’ing their derrieres. Let’s stop responding to them and their comments and take the fuel out of their fire. They will continue to post, however, but without engaging them in pointless debates, it should greatly reduce the thread pollutions, and hence their effectiveness.

      • Anti-BDS
        Anti-BDS
        April 11, 2014, 1:40 pm

        So let me get this straight. You want to ban and boycott people who disagree with you on the issue of Israel…… What I love about this effort in silencing is it is always the left wing and the supporters of Palestine that look to revoke the rights of other parties in a debate… You don’t see any of the ‘trolls’ saying that Mondoweiss should ban everyone with your opinion. How truly pathetic of you.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 11, 2014, 2:22 pm

        So let me get this straight. You want to ban and boycott people who disagree with you on the issue of Israel

        There are prohibitions in the site comment policy about trolling threads with off topic messages and about Holocaust and Nakba denial. The fact that there are numerous examples of those type comments under an article about Deir Yassin or that readers suggest that those responsible ought to be banned, should come as no surprise.

      • talknic
        talknic
        April 12, 2014, 8:12 am

        @ Anti-BDS “So let me get this straight. You want to ban and boycott people who disagree with you on the issue of Israel……”

        Ooops you were going to “get this straight”

        What was written is still there http://mondoweiss.net/2014/04/members-family-slaughtered.html/comment-page-1#comment-657492

    • Daniel Rich
      Daniel Rich
      April 9, 2014, 5:35 pm

      @ DEBKA DaBakr,

      Yes, the soldiers who were shot at @ Wounded Knee suffered tremendously and their mental wounds will haunt us for time immemorial.

      ‘Our thoughts and prius pliers prayers go out to all those SS and Wehrmacht men who entered the Warsaw Ghetto and lost their lives.

      In politics, justice is a commodity, a tool. To us humans, justice bleeds and cries, but never lies, never…

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        April 9, 2014, 7:58 pm

        officers wern’t shot at at wounded knee circa 1800s. That was trumped up. They were ghost dancing. I thought you were writing about little big horn which is still an odd example considering their are competing memorials to those who were massacred and those who battled to avoid destruction

      • gamal
        gamal
        April 10, 2014, 2:43 am

        1890, you have some objection to accuracy? 25 US soldiers died, trumped up by whom? magical thinking would dignify your lame schtick.

        “While these discussions proceeded in the Lakota camp, a number of Indians began singing Ghost Dance songs, with some rising to throw handfuls of dirt in the air. The troops who surrounded them perceived the singing and dirt throwing as signals to attack, and at this tense moment the fuse was lit. A man named Black Coyote (sometimes called Black Fox) refused to surrender his rifle to a soldier. The two began wrestling over the gun, and in the struggle it discharged. Immediately the nervous troops began firing, while the Miniconjous retrieved their weapons and returned fire. The military’s rifle fire was complemented with cannon rounds from Hotchkiss guns, whose accuracy and exploding shells were formidable. The outnumbered and outgunned Lakotas fled, and for several hours intermittent gunfire continued, with the military in pursuit. Bodies were found as far away as three miles from the camp. Firing ceased, and by midafternoon the troops had gathered up their dead and wounded, as well as Lakota wounded, and returned to Pine Ridge Agency. The fear of a reprisal attack kept troops and civilians entrenched at the agency until January 3, 1891, when a military-escorted civilian burial party proceeded to the site of the massacre. There they buried 146 Lakotas in a single mass grave. Other dead were accounted for later, bringing the total to more than 250 Lakotas; the Seventh Cavalry lost twenty-five men.”

        http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclopedia/doc/egp.war.056

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        April 10, 2014, 3:06 am

        Dabakr,

        This “Nakba” was called thus as the Palestinian natives who fled the war zone thought their lives would be only TEMPORARILY interrupted by the onslaught on war. But this Palestinian “Nakba” then bled into ETHNIC CLEANSING, which in itself is currently bleeding into a HOLOCAUST.

        Who knows what the future holds? Maybe a jewish “Nakba” will errupt and result in the collapse of israel? No biggie, it’ll just be a “catastrophe”, that’s all.

    • annie
      annie
      April 9, 2014, 5:39 pm

      attacking under fire versus going in without a single act of hostility are two completely different cases.

      On January 20, 1948, the villagers met leaders of the Givat Shaul community to form a peace pact. The Deir Yassin villagers agreed to inform Givat Shaul should Palestinian militiamen appear in the village, by hanging out certain types of laundry during the day—two white pieces with a black piece in the middle—and at night signaling three dots with a flashlight and placing three lanterns in a certain place. In return, patrols from Givat Shaul guaranteed safe passage to Deir Yassin residents, in vehicles or on foot, passing through their neighborhood on the way to Jerusalem.[12] Yoma Ben-Sasson, Haganah commander in Givat Shaul, said after the village had been captured that, “there was not even one incident between Deir Yassin and the Jews.”[13]

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#cite_note-13

      but either way you’re wrong and your logic is deeply flawed and sickening. it is not “completely different ” using the slaughter of civilians to ethnically cleanse the land for a jewish state even had there been ” a single act” of hostility from the village.

    • ritzl
      ritzl
      April 9, 2014, 7:47 pm

      @DaBakr Was Deir Yassin inside the Jewish part of Mandate partition or not?

      A: NOT!

      So (beyond your own tell of the use of “Jewish fighters,” meaning outside their state to kill/cleanse innocents; i.e. genocide), you blame Palestinians for fighting back. What pure cocoonish, Israeli crap, to put it mildly.

      Nobody believes any of what you/Israel say anymore. Why do you believe i? It’s simply not anything resembling even partial truth.

      There’s too much info to the contrary. You’re sick. Unfortunately that sickness is pervasive in US politics. But it will be increasingly understood as a sickness. Sadly a lot of [Palestinian] people will have to die to move your financially well-supported view of that regional world toward actual reality.

      Again, I just don’t get your view. No one will. Your “pushback” is the definition of counterproductive. It’s over.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        April 9, 2014, 8:05 pm

        your using magical thinking if you believe the Arab militias and regular armies were sticking to what you say were boundaries of the new partition. There was a war. Arabs didn’t even recognize the ‘Jewish Mandate’. The new Israeli army formed of many former militant/terrorists fought to retain the status of the UN partition not some plan for ‘greater Israel’ which wasn’t even a formulated idea yet. If you truly believe “nobody” will ever “get” this view I wish you good luck with that concept. I don’t lose any sleep over competing narratives of history as I don’t pt much stock in any one side owning the so-called ‘truth’

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        April 10, 2014, 12:44 am

        It’s a well documented fact that the village offered no resistance to the Zionist gangs as they had just made an agreement of mutual non-aggression and fighters were told to stay away from the village a d white flags were raised on houses to signal peaceful intentions something which was deliberately ignored by the terrorist gangs who nevertheless entered the village and massacred everyone except few who were spared in order to let them go and tell other villages of what their fate is going to be like if they didn’t flee their homes. That was exactly the plan and it worked. Begin the über thug himself admitted later that effectively it was the intention.
        Learn about your history and spare us the propaganda horse crap

      • talknic
        talknic
        April 10, 2014, 2:18 am

        @ DaBakr “your using magical thinking if you believe the Arab militias and regular armies were sticking to what you say were boundaries of the new partition:”

        So … exactly what territory actually sovereign to Israel did they invade? Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq were UN Member states, why are there no UNSC resolutions condemning their alleged invasion of Israel?

        “Arabs didn’t even recognize the ‘Jewish Mandate’”

        It was not and is still not mandatory to recognize states. What is required is “respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”

        As Jewish forces were already in non-Israeli territories on the day Israel was proclaimed, the Arab Regional Powers had the right to attempt to expel armed Israeli aliens (even if they were Jews) from what remained of Palestine.

        ” The new Israeli army formed of many former militant/terrorists fought to retain the status of the UN partition”

        Uh huh. In territories “outside the State of Israel” ..”in Palestine” according to the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT http://pages.citebite.com/x1r0b4d1y6mkv

        ” not some plan for ‘greater Israel’ which wasn’t even a formulated idea yet”
        Uh huh..

        Ben-Gurion did not want to limit themselves from the outset: “We accepted the UN Resolution, but the Arabs did not. They are preparing to make war on us. If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don’t accept?”

        ” I don’t lose any sleep over competing narratives of history as I don’t pt much stock in any one side owning the so-called ‘truth’”

        Odd. You try to perpetuate Israeli propaganda easily disproven by quoting verbatim Jewish leaders and Israeli Government statements

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        April 11, 2014, 10:34 am

        @DaBakr- The only magical thinking here is the belief that what you just wrote, facts be damned, will remain the generally-accepted narrative on Israel’s murderous founding.

        Israel started the depopulation within its part of Palestine in 1947. It continued outside its part of Palestine. 250K people were driven out of their homes in both locations, BEFORE any neighboring armies took action, and BEFORE Israel “accepted” the partition on paper (i.e. Israel could not possibly be viewed as accepting [and the “Arabs” didn’t…] the partition because it was already violating it before it was signed.).

        The founding mythology of Israel is going to yield to the fact that it was, and continues to be, just one big Wounded Knee exercise.

    • pjdude
      pjdude
      April 9, 2014, 8:47 pm

      Whether there was no shots fired at them or the equivalent to the entire red army shooting at them it’s still illegal to kill civilians. Period. End of story. That you think somehow firing at genocidial thugs means they had to right to murder says some pretty terrible things about you

      • Naftush
        Naftush
        April 10, 2014, 3:36 am

        No serious Zionist whitewashes the events at Deir Yassin. What also won’t wash, however, is current attempts — mirroring Arab propaganda at the time — to balloon it into an impetus for further open-ended “resistance.” It failed big-league back then; thousands of Palestinians fled solely because sources they considered reliable told them that they were next in line.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 10, 2014, 9:32 am

        No serious Zionist whitewashes the events at Deir Yassin.

        Except for the ignoramuses here who try to deny that Plan Dalet contained explicitly step-by-step instructions to encircle, attack, and ethnically cleanse Arab population centers and who deny IDF accounts which say that the inhabitants scrupulously observed the terms of a non-aggression pact with their Jewish neighbors.

      • American
        American
        April 10, 2014, 3:01 pm

        Naftush says:

        April 10, 2014 at 3:36 am

        “‘ thousands of Palestinians fled solely because sources they considered reliable told them that they were next in line””

        sounds like whitewashing to me.

      • talknic
        talknic
        April 10, 2014, 3:32 pm

        @ Naftush “No serious Zionist whitewashes the events at Deir Yassin”

        Sure pal.

        “thousands of Palestinians fled solely because sources they considered reliable told them that they were next in line”

        What Jewish forces were doing and are still doing tells us they WERE next in line

    • Qualtrough
      Qualtrough
      April 9, 2014, 10:47 pm

      Good point! I am sure you will be sympathetic to Nazi claims that their reprisals and atrocities in France, Poland, the Ukraine, Russia and elsewhere were often precipitated by partisans attacking German troops. Puts a different spin on it, right?

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      April 10, 2014, 3:59 am

      And will the Arabs ever admit there were Arab combatants and soldiers in Dier Y that were firing on the Jewish fighters, killing several, and putting a slightly different spin on this supposedly totally unprovoked attack?

      Isn’t that exercising the right to defend themselves against an act of murderous aggression?

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      April 10, 2014, 6:47 am

      And will the Arabs ever admit there were Arab combatants and soldiers in Dier Y that were firing on the Jewish fighters, killing several, and putting a slightly different spin on this supposedly totally unprovoked attack?

      It really shouldn’t matter, since everyone has a right to self defense once they are attacked and Deir Yassin, where the Jewish forces were operating illegally, wasn’t even located in the territory allocated to the Jewish State. But your version of events has even been refuted by historical IDF sources. So this claim is rubbish and Nakba denial.

      Lets look at what the 1986 account in the ‘Maarachot’, a publication of the Israel Defense Army Press in Tel Aviv, and the contemporary Lehi Journal ‘Ma’as’, that appeared three weeks before the attack on the village, and see what both had to say about the nature of the village. They both documented the fact that the village had driven off several groups of Arab belligerents and scrupulously observed the terms of a non-aggression pact with their Jewish neighbors. There was no reason at all to attack it, other than the desire for conquest and a request for revenge from someone’s father on account of an old score that he wanted settled:

      At the beginning of April, the Haganah carried out Operation Nachshon, with the participation of about 1,500 troops. The Lehi and Etzel (Irgun) commanders in Jerusalem, Mordehai Raanan and Joshua Zettler, whose units had not been active for several weeks, met and decided to attack Deir Yassin.41 Operation Nachshon had created a precedent because Haganah units had begun conquering territories and taking them over. The Etzel and Lehi were unable to carry out a large scale operation. The commanders in Jerusalem were afraid that the two organizations would become isolated and inactive in the light of the Haganah activities, so they decided to join forces in a relatively large operation that would keep them in the picture.

      Zettler proposed to attack and conquer the village of Shuaffat and Sheikh Jerach. Yehoshua Goldshmidt (Gal) the Etzel operations officer who lived in Givat Shaul next to Deir Yassin, proposed to attack Deir Yassin. Ophir* gives these reasons for the proposal, ” Gal’s father, Reb Joseph Tzvi Goldshmidt, a Jewish ritual slaughterer (shochet) in Givat Shaul, was famous in his youth as a brave warrior against the Arab rioters from adjacent Deir Yassin…Goldshmidt learned from his father to be a soldier and also got his inspiration to fight the Arab village from him. This village had frequently endangered the lives of the inhabitants of the neighborhood in which he grew up. When he returned to Jerusalem in 1948, the old shochet reminded his son to “remember what Deir Yassin did to us. ”

      Deir Yassin was situated on a hill overlooking the Motza-Kastel area and the Roman road from lower Motza to Jerusalem. Its location gave it a certain importance in ensuring security to the north and west or as a base for attacks in Givat Shaul and Beit Hakerem, as well as a link connecting the Arab villages in the south of the city with those to the north and west.

      However, the people of Deir Yassin were interested in keeping out of the battles, and reached an agreement with their neighbors in Givat Shaul to maintain neighborly relations and to prevent infiltration of the members of the gangs {Palestinian irregulars} into Deir Yassin. The agreement was passed to district headquarters by the Hagana intelligence Service on Jan 20th {1948} for approval. Communications arrangements were made whereby the people of Deir Yassin would inform the Hagana about movements of outsiders in the area, and likewise arrangements were made to allow vehicles from the village to pass through Givat Shaul.

      The situation of Deir Yassin following the agreement was similar to that of Abu Ghosh, which was not taken by our forces during the War of Independence. The inhabitants of Deir Yassin fulfilled the agreement scrupulously.

      On the night of January 11th an Arab gang tried to set up a base in the village mill. The people of Deir Yassin opposed this entry with force. In the exchange of fire the son of the miller was killed. The inhabitants called the police and in the end the attempt of the gang to hold the place was frustrated.45 On the 27th of the January a force {belonging to} Abdel-Khader {Abdel Khader El-Husseini Suleiman} tried to enter the village. Again the village people resisted the encampment of the force in their twon, and the gang left in the direction of Beth Jallah.46 On March 30th there was a report that 150 troops, mostly Iraqi and Syrian, had entered Deir Yassin, and that the villagers were leaving. The Arab command pressured the villagers to agree to the presence of the troops, but gave up in the face of the determined resistance of the inhabitants. {A.I. – This must be compared with the text of the ZOA report, and Uri Milstein, which mentions only the fact that the troops entered – not that they left} On the 7th of April, two days before Deir Yassin was attacked by Etzel and Lehi, the Haganah Intelligence Service announced that three days previously there had been a meeting in Ein Kerem {Arab village} between the elders of both villages, in which Kemal Erikat, Abdel-Khader’s deputy, participated. He proposed to bring foreign troops into the villages to strengthen them. The elders of Deir Yassin rejected the proposal and said that peaceful relations were in effect with their Jewish neighbors, and they did not want to break the peace .

      The revisionist organization were well acquainted with the existence of the agreement. In the Lehi Journal ‘Ma’as’ that appeared three weeks before the attack on the village, we find “The elders of the Arab village of Deir Yassin approached the leaders of Givat Shaul and asked to conclude a non-aggression pact. The agreement has been kept to date.” Contrarily, the Lehi people claimed afterwards that the village was an active nest of terrorists, that Deir Yassin served as a base for attacks on Jewish neighborhoods in the city,

      and that among the dead there were also Syrians and Iraqis who were encamped in the village. All of these claims had no factual basis whatever.

      http://web.archive.org/web/20080208024823/http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/levitza.htm

      • Anti-BDS
        Anti-BDS
        April 10, 2014, 9:05 am

        Hostage. Why are you focusing on 250 people many of whom were armed being killed in a war 66 years ago but not focus on 200,000 people being killed in Syria including many Palestinians???? #DoubleStandard

        To Quote your phrase “It really shouldn’t matter”

        It really shouldn’t matter if Palestinians killed 77 unarmed Jewish civilians the same week as Deir Yassin

        It shouldn’t matter that Deir Yassin had Men who were dressed up as women civilians with guns firing at the Israelis

        It shouldn’t matter that Deir Yassin was instrumental in keeping Jews within Jerusalem in a blockade.

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        April 10, 2014, 12:39 pm

        anti-bds,
        “It shouldn’t matter that Deir Yassin had Men who were dressed up as women civilians with guns firing at the Israelis”

        Yeah right that explains why the Irgun and Herut terrorists gunned down all women in Deir Yassin – and raping a couple of the young ones in self-defense, of course.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 10, 2014, 2:46 pm

        Hostage. Why are you focusing on 250 people many of whom were armed being killed in a war 66 years ago but not focus on 200,000 people being killed in Syria including many Palestinians???? #DoubleStandard

        You are engaging in dishonest whataboutery. I’ve always advocated that any party to an armed conflict should be prosecuted for any alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity and be ready to defend their actions. I’ve complained here about crimes committed by heads of state including Blair, Bush, Obama and offers of amnesty or exile for other guilty heads of state, including Assad, al-Bashir, Taylor, Gaddafi, et al. See for example:
        * http://mondoweiss.net/2013/08/palestinians-welcome-home-prisoners-to-the-west-bank-in-late-night-celebration.html#comment-584538
        * http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/abbas-to-push-un-vote-this-month-on-observer-state-status-for-palestine-israel-promises-retaliation.html#comment-513538
        * http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/abbas-to-push-un-vote-this-month-on-observer-state-status-for-palestine-israel-promises-retaliation.html#comment-512782
        * http://mondoweiss.net/2013/08/drone-hypocrisy.html#comment-581743

        I happen to support Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the International Commission of Jurists, and the Center for Constitutional Rights. FYI, I’ve commented on all of these issues in the past, as well as the subjects of the criminality of transferring prisoners outside the occupied territories for internment at Guantanamo Bay; the criminality of signature drone strikes and targeted assassinations; and a host of other issues that would probably go over your head.

      • American
        American
        April 10, 2014, 3:03 pm

        Anti-BDS says:

        April 10, 2014 at 9:05 am

        Hostage. Why are you focusing on 250 people many of whom were armed being killed in a war 66 years ago but not focus on 200,000 people being killed in Syria including many Palestinians????
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

        Because the main subject of this blog is Israel not Syria.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 11, 2014, 3:35 am

        Because the main subject of this blog is Israel not Syria.

        Oh I think that Syria is part of the War of Ideas on the Middle East, these individuals are just trolling this thread to change the subject from the Nakba and Deir Yassin.

        I’ve commented elsewhere about the real double standard. @Anti-BDS, see Larry Derfner, “The world’s blatant double standard – in Israel’s favor”, and stop acting so clueless: link to 972mag.com

        Some of those Syrian casualties were the result of Israel’s on-going war of aggression against Syria. Netanyahu has the bizarre idea that it’s legal to launch air strikes against neighboring states to prevent them from obtaining conventional anti-aircraft defense systems. See: Israel says will act to prevent S-300 missile systems from becoming operational: Netanyahu tells European foreign ministers that if the Russian missile systems get into Syria, Israel’s ‘entire airspace will become a no-fly zone’ and therefore it ‘cannot stand idly by.’
        link to haaretz.com

        That obviously violates the UN Charter and Netanyahu should be prepared to defend those actions in a criminal court.

        Using the same logic, neighboring countries would have the right to launch attacks against Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. warehouse and manufacturing facilities and the deployed elements of the Iron Dome System.

      • talknic
        talknic
        April 10, 2014, 3:29 pm

        Anti-BDS “Why are you focusing on 250 people many of whom were armed being killed in a war 66 years ago”

        That’s the topic.

        ” but not focus on 200,000 people being killed in Syria including many Palestinians????”

        It’s not the topic

        ” #DoubleStandard”

        No. It’s not the topic!

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        April 10, 2014, 8:16 pm

        “Why are you focusing on 250 people many of whom were armed being killed in a war 66 years ago but not focus on 200,000 people being killed in Syria including many Palestinians????”
        Simple. The post is about Deir Yassin, not Syria.

        “many of whom were armed”
        Lie. Not one was armed. Not a single shot was fired from the village.

      • Sumud
        Sumud
        April 11, 2014, 4:47 am

        Why are you focusing on 250 people many of whom were armed being killed in a war 66 years ago but not focus on 200,000 people being killed in Syria including many Palestinians???

        ‘Anti-BDS’ – If you feel passionately about Syria then please set up a blog of your own that focuses on Syria. Please come back and post a link, I’m interested to read all about your opinions on Syria, on your own blog

        You aren’t the first zionist who tries to change the subject away from Israel/Palestine and I don’t expect you’ll be the last. So please, prove me wrong – demonstrate your concerns about Syria is genuine and not a cynical ploy to change the subject – I await your link.

        As an interim step you could even write an article and submit it to Mondoweiss, it may well be published. Here’s the email link for submissions:

        [email protected]

        Give us your best.

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        April 10, 2014, 11:08 am

        Thanks again, Hostage, I better stop repeting this constant theme, but I highly admire your knowledge on the issue.

        What struck me in the highly interesting documents discussed in your exchanges with Nurit Bytch” was a comment by either Abba Eban or Moshe Sharett, that tried to suggest that there was no right of individuals only of States. It may have been Sharett really since I seem to remember it led straight into the discussion of what Israel was going to do. Which again contained a verbal lacunae concerning refugees. Which suggests his speech after Israel’s admission. Your last comments thankfully referred especially to this context.

        These historical documents are interesting to read. Quite obviously the Arab spokesman are quite aware what is happening, and may in fact use “Zionists” in this context may be quite deliberately. Just as an Oriental waft breezes over some of the contributions, but also the historical context surfaces strongly and may have influenced one or the other. Just as some seem to refer to contacts with “Zionists”, and when it enters their contributions it always feels like influenced from that area. Obviously the tragedy did not happen in Palestine and wasn’t the fault of the Palestinians.

        Per Federspiel is an interesting member among the contributors which shows that it may not be so easy to simply divide the contributions into aware “Arabs” and Orientalist “Western powers”.

        Although strictly I am not fond of suggesting it, could he be Jewish?
        Federspiel sounds pretty German Feder=feather; Spiel=game/play. From my more general perception–within limits, Phil’s name is a standard German name–but if names are both German and somewhat attractive there is a higher chance they are also Jewish too. In any case it does not sound typical Danish to me. Thus in this context it come to my mind occasionally.

        Long aside. But it is quite interesting that he was a member of the United Nations Palestine Commission. Interesting larger context too. Abba Eban on obstructed communications.

        I ordered Quigley as a start. But I have to admit that I really long for at least a chronological list of the UN documents, also a chronological list of the diverse institutional frames, for loss of a better term in this context. Apparently not even the UN’s documents are all online. And it seems almost impossible to get their search machines to render chronological list of documents.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        April 10, 2014, 11:28 am

        I just want to re-emphasise your ‘it really shouldn’t matter’. One of the main techniques for defending the indefensible is to start all sorts of hares with whose help discussion is concentrated not on the enormity of what was obviously done but on endlessly complex surrounding details.

  6. LanceThruster
    LanceThruster
    April 9, 2014, 4:20 pm

    My university is doing events for ‘Genocide Awareness Month’…and there’s no mention whatsoever of anything with regards to Palestine.

    • pabelmont
      pabelmont
      April 9, 2014, 7:35 pm

      LT: Years ago (1980s) (and perhaps still) there have been well-funded Zionist programs to assist public schools in creating lesson plans to teach holocaust awareness. Whether the courses prepared and taught to unsuspecting school kids in that way taught any tragedies other than the Jewish part of the holocaust created by Germany in the 1940s I don’t know: the holocaust itself had many victims besides Jews and Pol Pot and Rwanda come to mind as (other) tragedies that might have been taught — as does Palestine.

      My own reaction was that these courses were examples of “Oh, look at me! How I (and my Jewish people) have suffered. No need to consider any other type of suffering and especially not any suffering caused BY Jews” And I argued in a local newspaper that such a course should not be taught unless Palestine was taught as part of it. I got considerably shot down in the letters column of that local paper. At least the conversation happened.

      • tokyobk
        tokyobk
        April 9, 2014, 9:37 pm

        This is a telegram from your soul not an analysis of what holocaust education programs are teaching (or are not teaching). I hope you can tell the difference. Sometimes people for whom the Jews are the center of their explanatory narrative cannot distinguish between the Jews inside and outside of their heads.

        Most Holocaust education programs are cast in global and universal terms, as they should be, though I certainly don’t doubt the propensity for groups to be self centered and superlative and for groups who want to talk about their own histories to present that history as representative of humanity.

        And of course you are right that the Nazi war against the Jews (even in the context of WWII) is just one genocide, unfortunately, of several major mass killings and far too many on a smaller scale, including the horrific types of executions such as at Deir Yassin (or of my father’s relatives at a river bank near Stari Sambor by the Einsatzgruppen)

        Imo, the first modern purposeful, “racial” and highly technical genocide was in the Belgian Congo, which fits your example of neglecting global horrors.

      • American
        American
        April 10, 2014, 12:15 am

        tokyobk says

        ” And of course you are right that the Nazi war against the Jews (even in the context of WWII) is just one genocide, ”’>>>>

        That is the point of most people’s objections to having the holocaust taught as a ‘stand alone’ subject.
        It should be ‘part of’ world history or similar courses where genocide events are covered.
        In the US in particular the holocaust is not a “US event” , not something that involved the US, whereas black slavery for instance was a US event.

      • gamal
        gamal
        April 10, 2014, 1:24 am
      • Taxi
        Taxi
        April 10, 2014, 3:42 am

        In the UK, where I was educated, the holocaust was taught as part of WW2 history. And I remember clearly that I was taught that the nazis killed 4 million european jews and not 6 million – in other words, the nazis were after euro jews and not Arab jews and they’d horrifically consigned 4 million of them to the cruelest of deaths . Nowadays the narrative has somewhat been changed and people like me who have been exposed to two versions of the conclusion are stuck not knowing which one to cite in public. Should I believe my respectable old school’s version, or should I believe the current media’s?

        Notable too with my personal holocaust education is that my non-jewish history teacher taught it with profound gravitas and empathy that deeply effected me. For several decades thereafter, I found it very difficult to criticize the jews of israel even though I was aware of their daily crimes against the hapless Palestinians.

      • kamanja
        kamanja
        April 10, 2014, 10:21 am

        No they deported and murdered Arab Jews who lived in North Africa too. They had a lot less time to do it though. There’s a partial list of Tunisian Jewish victims on this page if you scroll down a bit: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/shaked-edith/re-examining-wannsee.html

        As far as the number of victims is concerned, to this day the Red Cross International Tracing Center in Bad Arolsen has boxes of papers it has not yet sorted through.

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        April 10, 2014, 12:25 pm

        kamanja,

        It’s news to me that part of Hitler’s plan was to take over North Africa, the Arabian peninsular and the Levant so he could holocaust the Arab jews still living in their Arab homeland. Link please.

        I would be very surprised if the meticulous and detail-obsessed holocaust historians never got round to giving a figure of how many Arab jews Hitler actually killed.

      • Anti-BDS
        Anti-BDS
        April 10, 2014, 4:36 am

        That the Holocaust should not be taught in US schools if the Palestinian situation is not taught is preposterous. The Holocaust is a key part of World War 2 because Hitler blamed the Jews and scapegoated the Jews as the main goal of the whole war which involved the entire world.

        If the US school system decides not to teach students about Black slavery then that is a separate conversation as to why this is the case.

        Also, the other victims of the Holocaust have never been denied by the Jews. It is included in the History of World War 2, that Hitler killed gypsies, mentally retarded people, political opponents and other minorities. Everyone knows that Hitler walked out of the stadium when Jesse Jackson won his Olympic race.

        Supporters of the Palestinian cause, hate the Holocaust because it is the eternal example of the real motives behind politically making decisions that single out and affect only Jews. The Holocaust shows us that just prior to 6 million Jews being killed they were boycotted and considered to be running the world, so now when we see the exact same online comments with regards to Israel we dont want to be reminded that these comments are copy and paste jobs from Nazi and mainstream German media in the 1930’s.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        April 10, 2014, 10:51 am

        “The Holocaust is a key part of World War 2 because Hitler blamed the Jews and scapegoated the Jews as the main goal of the whole war which involved the entire world.”

        Your history is wrong. The destruction of the Jews was not Hitler’s main goal; his main goal was the political world dominance of the German state and people. While this involved his hatred of the Jews, that hatred was not his main goal. Indeed, if his plans had gone they way he wanted, the destruction of the Jews would have been one small part of the larger scores of millions of deaths he had planned.

        But while I agree that there should be no linkage between the Holocaust and the Nakba, not for the reasons you suggest, because one could equally say that the attempted genocide and actual ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people by those engaged in the Zionist project was one of the main causes, if not the main cause, of the problems in Palestine today and of the Middle East at large.

        “Also, the other victims of the Holocaust have never been denied by the Jews.”

        That’s not true. There are some people, including some Jews, who object to the term “Holocaust” being used to refer to anyone who was murdered but was a non Jew. So, to them, if a Jewish person was murdered at Auschwitz, at the same exact time, by the same exact method, in the same exact place, by the same exact reason, by the same exact people as a person who was a Roma or Sinti or Soviet POW , it was part of the Holocaust, those people who seek exclusivity over the term, would consider the Jew’s death as part of the Holocaust, but not the other.

        “Everyone knows that Hitler walked out of the stadium when Jesse Jackson won his Olympic race.”

        Really?? Everyone knows that Jesse Jackson — Baptist Minister, civil rights activist and head of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition — ran in the Berlin Olympics?? Or maybe it’s just that all African Americans look alike to you… (But you’ve got to hand it to Jesse; it’s not everyone who can win an Olympic race 5 years before he was born.)

        (Oh, and if you meant Jesse Owens, you’re wrong about that too; Hitler didn’t snub Owens. Although FDR did…)

        “Supporters of the Palestinian cause, hate the Holocaust because it is the eternal example of the real motives behind politically making decisions that single out and affect only Jews.”

        No, most supporters of the Palestinian cause — like all other decent people — hate the Holocaust because it involved the murder of millions upon millions of innocent human beings. But you feel free to go on loving the Holocaust if that is what your twisted psychology requires of you.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        April 10, 2014, 11:14 am

        @Anti-Palestinian

        Supporters of the Palestinian cause, hate the Holocaust because it is the eternal example of the real motives behind politically making decisions that single out and affect only Jews.

        Bullshit.

        This isn’t about the Holocaust.

        This is about the exploitation of the Holocaust (like your disgusting comment) for Zionism.

        The Palestinians didn’t murder 6 million Jews, but it was Jews who ethnically cleansed Palestinians from Historic Palestine.

        There is no Israel without the destruction of Historic Palestine.

        This conflict is about Jewish colonialism and the Nakba – not about the Holocaust.

    • Naftush
      Naftush
      April 10, 2014, 3:36 am

      Maybe because nothing with regards to Palestine resembles genocide.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 10, 2014, 9:44 am

        Maybe because nothing with regards to Palestine resembles genocide.

        The conduct and public statements made by Israeli officials during the 1948 war and during Cast Lead more than satisfy the required mens rea and the elements of the offense of incitement to commit genocide and the crime of genocide itself. German courts and the ECHR have upheld convictions for the crime of genocide in cases involving as few as 11 murder victims, e.g. Joric v German http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/pages/search.aspx?i=001-81608

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        April 10, 2014, 1:36 pm

        What a bunch of BS & horse kaflooey. If the Israelis plan was a ‘genocide’ of the Arabs living amongst them after ’48 then they are perhaps the worst practitioners of genocide that ever walked the hills of Edom.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 11, 2014, 4:42 am

        What a bunch of BS & horse kaflooey. If the Israelis plan was a ‘genocide’ of the Arabs living amongst them after ’48 then they are perhaps the worst practitioners of genocide that ever walked the hills of Edom.

        Article III: The following acts shall be punishable: . . . (d) Attempt to commit genocide; http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/whatisit.html

        There is no requirement for a criminal regime to succeed in its efforts.

        In the recent debate between scholars, published in the Journal of Genocide Research, regarding the crimes committed in connection with the founding of the State of Israel, it was agreed by both sides that Israel had engaged in illegal, forceable population transfer or “ethnic cleansing”. The only real question was whether it also constituted attempted genocide or the crime of genocide. http://forward.com/articles/135484/top-genocide-scholars-battle-over-how-to-character/

        The FRUS records the fact that Israeli officials demonstrated the necessary means rea, when they refused to allow the victims to return to their homes, even after they were advised that many of the refugees would die by winter if they remained in the camps where only inadequate supplies of food and shelter were available.

        A report on international criminal law and the defense of the rights of indigenous peoples issued by the UN Special Rapporteur discusses “cultural genocide” (aka politicide & etc.) consisting of acts that are included in the definition of the crime of genocide in the international convention. He discusses the fact that the use of the term “ethnic cleansing” has been a tactic to avoid responsibility for genocide in some past cases:

        The recent tendency to define as “ethnic cleansing” policies that could prove to be genocidal under the definition of “genocide” established in international law has been a way of escaping responsibility, and even of fostering impunity. “Ethnic cleansing” may be the ideal term for journalistic and even scientific purposes because of its emotional content, but its ineffectiveness makes it a poor choice in the field of law. The same may be said of “ethnocide” and “cultural genocide” as fully separate terms distinct from “genocide” as defined in criminal law. Use of one or both of these expressions is frequently a way of circumventing the legal effects of use of the word “genocide” even in the face of the evidence.

        Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term genocide, specifically included reduced caloric rations, starvation, and brutal acts that resulted in mass flights and emigration to neighboring states in his definition of life threatening acts that constitute Genocide. The International Criminal Court guidelines on “Elements of Crimes”, “Genocide by deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction” explains that:

        The term “conditions of life” may include, but is not necessarily restricted to, deliberate deprivation of resources indispensable for survival, such as food or medical services, or systematic expulsion from homes.

        See page 9 footnote 4 link to icc-cpi.int
        Those descriptions match the conditions from U.S. State Department reports regarding the hundreds of thousands of Arab refugees:

        They are destitute of any belongings, are without adequate shelter, medical supplies, sanitation and food. Their average daily ration, made up exclusively of bread, is only 600 calories. Once the rainy season commences and winter sets in, tragedy on the largest scale will be inevitable unless relief is forthcoming.
        Thus far the Provisional Government of Israel has refused to admit the Arab refugees to their former homes, which have in some cases been destroyed by fighting, and in others preempted by Jewish immigrants.

        link to digicoll.library.wisc.edu

        Plan Dalet reveals that the destruction of homes was premeditated and that the crime of wanton destruction was aggravated by plans to plant anti-personnel mines in the debris.

        From the very outset, officials realized that relief efforts would not be able to provide all the refugees with adequate supplies of protective clothing, food, water, or shelter in time and that many would sucumb if they weren’t allowed to quickly return to their homes and the properties that provided their normal sources of shelter and sustenance. One US official remarked:

        Meanwhile, winter approaches and plight refugees grows worse not better. If aid does not come soonest and in liberal quantities, nature will solve problem which man apparently cannot.

        link to digicoll.library.wisc.edu
        Other US officials reported that the Jewish Foreign Minister, Shertok, showed evidence of a “swelled-head” when he advised the UN Mediator that Israel would not admit the refugees. He changed his tune after the UNSCOP hearing and now said there was no room for Arabs since their space was needed for Jewish immigrants. Shertork also said that in any event, the government reserved right to replace them with Jews from Arab countries who had expressed a desire to come to Palestine. link to digicoll.library.wisc.edu

        There is no doubt at all that the General Assembly, which authored the Genocide Convention in the first place, also condemned the Sabra and Shatila camp massacres of Palestinian refugees and declared them to be an example of the crime of genocide. See the text of Resolution 37/123 Part D “The Situation in the Middle East”.

        The Secretary General’s and Special Rapporteur’s report contained in the 1,000 page UN dossier prepared for the ICJ Wall case noted that walled-off enclaves had been denied adequate supplies of food and water, while their crops withered and died unharvested in their fields. The written statements from several of the interested state parties, including Lebanon, noted that Israel had committed all of the constituent acts of apartheid, including those that the preamble of the Apartheid Convention associate with the crime of genocide:

        “The construction of the wall and the resulting situation correspond to a number of the constituent acts of the crime of apartheid, as enumerated in Article 2 of the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, adopted by the General Assembly on 30 November 1973: that is to say, the denial of the liberty and dignity of a group, the deliberate imposition on a group of living conditions calculated to cause its physical destruction in whole or in part, measures calculated to deprive a group of the right to work, the right to education and the right to freedom of movement and residence, the creation of ghettos, the expropriation of property, etc. Such actions constitute measures of collective punishment.”

        link to icj-cij.org

        Likewise the Goldstone report noted the blockade and the deliberate destruction of the Gaza community’s sources of sustenance and stated that a competent court could reasonably conclude it was an example of collective punishment and the crime of persecution. The ICRC and UN treaty monitoring bodies have declared that the Gaza blockade is an illegal form of collective punishment. There have been reliable reports, including one from The Lancet, which illustrate that one direct result of the blockade is that a statistically significant proportion of the population exhibited signs of malnutrition, including stunted growth of children; permanent developmental disabilities; and shortened life expectancy. See:
        Gaza’s Stunted Growth Problem link to topics.blogs.nytimes.com
        ICRC – Gaza closure: not another year! link to icrc.org

      • talknic
        talknic
        April 10, 2014, 11:19 am

        @ Naftush “Maybe because nothing with regards to Palestine resembles genocide… “.. except for what resembles genocide in the UN definition of genocide (my bold)

        Legal definition of genocide
        Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as
        any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part ; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.” https://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf

        You’re pushing another empty Hasbarrow

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        April 10, 2014, 11:54 am

        I think many people draw a distinction between driving people out and massacring them. And I would agree that the offence against individuals is somewhat less. But we still have a genocide, a genus as such eliminated, if people are driven out and given no choice (if they even have that choice) but to live among strangers and see their children (at best) grow up as citizens of a country that is alien to their parents. The former political group no longer exists.
        You may say ‘I don’t mind what happens to groups , only what happens to individuals’ you may be right in a way, but what can be expected to happen to individuals in these circumstances is much more than relocation – impoverishment, insecurity and humiliation in multiple forms, echoing to some extent down the generations. Elimination of the genus, even if it proceeds without massacre and even if the people concerned do have descendants who live on as members of other groups, still implies individual suffering on an enormous scale and a triumph of might over right.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        April 10, 2014, 2:11 pm

        I think many people draw a distinction between driving people out and massacring them. And I would agree that the offence against individuals is somewhat less. But we still have a genocide,

        I’ve commented on that, because it can be a misconception. The ICC lists the act of systematically driving a population from their homes as one of the elements of the crime of genocide. The FRUS documents the fact that Israeli officials deliberately refused to allow refugees to return to their homes and sources of sustenance, even after it became clear that many would otherwise become weakened and die of exposure during the winter.

        Plan Dalet envisioned destruction of hundreds of thousands of homes and planting booby traps in the debris. General Jodl was hanged for destroying 30,000 homes. So I think there is ample evidence of genocidal intent.

  7. a blah chick
    a blah chick
    April 9, 2014, 9:18 pm

    I don’t care if every household had its own submachine gun, Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. This is something most Zionists do not understand. Apparenlty Arabs prove their peaceful bone fides by dying quietly with no resistance.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      April 10, 2014, 3:55 am

      Yes, apparently Israeli supporters must believe that those killed during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising deserve what they got .

    • Kay24
      Kay24
      April 10, 2014, 5:56 am

      It is time the Palestinians were armed and trained to find the brutal occupier, and perhaps help them survive the violence against them. They are sitting ducks, and it seems the world prefers the occupier to keep murdering them.
      What a sad story. I hope the writer finds some peace, and happiness, so that he will not be haunted by this sadness, for the rest of this life.

    • bilal a
      bilal a
      April 10, 2014, 9:29 am

      what about the methodists upstate? I don’t think machine guns are the solution to ethno nationalist separatist settlements in the usa:

  8. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    April 10, 2014, 12:44 am

    Tareq I am so sorry this happened to you and your family. Horrific… justice must be served

  9. Daniel Rich
    Daniel Rich
    April 10, 2014, 3:58 am

    The Wall Street Journal doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Palestinians, unless their headline contains a hidden message I fail to detect [including sub]

    Pity the Palestinians? Count Me Out.

    sub: Thousands of Arabs are dying in Syria and South Sudan. Where’s the outrage on behalf of those truly[sic] suffering?

    – By Norman Podhoretz

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      April 10, 2014, 10:20 am

      Thousands of Arabs are dying in Syria and South Sudan. Where’s the outrage on behalf of those truly[sic] suffering? – – By Norman Podhoretz

      Sometimes the system just works without any outrage:
      * Time- The International Criminal Court is compiling evidence of possible recent war crimes in southern Sudan, allegedly directed by Sudanese Defense Minister Abdelrahim Mohamed Hussein, the same man whom a prosecutor at the court wants to apprehend for alleged crimes eight years ago in Darfur. An internal ICC memo outlines the Darfur crimes and says Hussein is “currently central to the commission of similar crimes,” now along the border between the North and South, including the killings of thousands of civilians. — http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2101425,00.html
      * The UNHRC Commission of Inquiry on Syria recommended a referral of the situation in Syria to the ICC (A/HRC/25/65). It has also heard from many States, from all regions, including: Austria, Botswana, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, Croatia, Czech Republic, France, Honduras, Ireland, Lithuania, Maldives, Switzerland, the UK, and the USA who are adamant that the situation in Syria should be referred to the ICC. Many of them have expressed a willingness to conduct their own criminal proceedings at the national level if they can obtain custody of the suspects. President Obama has asked for an AUMF and Netanyahu has carried out several bombing missions in Syria.

  10. Citizen
    Citizen
    April 10, 2014, 5:59 am

    Tareq Radi, if your name was Anne Frank every American would know your name. Why so? What can we do about this?

  11. RobertB
    RobertB
    April 10, 2014, 10:36 am

    65 Years Ago
    The Green Light for Zionism’s Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

    By Alan Hart

    “The prime fear factor was the slaughter by Zionist terrorists of more than 100 Palestinian men, women and children at Deir Yassin near Jerusalem. As Arthur Koestler was to write, the “bloodbath” at Deir Yassin was “the psychologically decisive factor in the spectacular exodus of the Arabs from the Holy Land and the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem.”

    It was, however, Menachem Begin, Zionism’s terror master and subsequently prime minister, who provided the most vivid description of how well the slaughter at Deir Yassin served Zionism’s cause. In his book The Revolt, he wrote:

    “Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel. Kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the Haganah (the underground Jewish military organization that became the Israeli Army), was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting. Beit-Iksa was also evacuated. These two places overlooked the road and their fall, together with the capture of Kastel by the Haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to Jerusalem. In the rest of the country, too, the Arabs began to flee in terror, even before they clashed with Jewish forces… The legend of Deir Yassin helped us in particular in the saving of Tiberias and the conquest of Haifa… All the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter. The Arabs began fleeing in panic, shouting ‘Deir Yassin!’”

    Three decades later, in an article for The American Zionist, Mordechai Nisan of the Truman Research Centre of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem expressed his concern about the failure to understand the major significance of terrorism in the struggle for Jewish sovereignty. He wrote: “Without terror it is unlikely that Jewish independence would have been achieved when it was.”

    After the Zionist state declared itself to be in existence, its government set up an unofficial body known as the “Transfer Committee”. Its job was to oversee the destruction of Palestinian towns and villages and/or their repopulation with Jews. The purpose of this Zionist strategy was to prevent dispossessed Palestinians returning to their homes.

    Click on link below for the rest of the details & the horrific photo from Deir Yassin’s brutal massacre:

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34243.htm

    • Stephen Shenfield
      Stephen Shenfield
      April 11, 2014, 7:33 pm

      To fill in the bigger picture, let’s not forget that there were several massacres on a similar scale to Deir Yassin — Tantura, for instance — and lots of “little” massacres. They all helped to terrorize indigenous people in different parts of Palestine.

  12. LanceThruster
    LanceThruster
    April 10, 2014, 2:15 pm

    I spoke to a member of the Visual History Project and asked why the Nakba wasn’t included. He said that the Nakba was not genocide because the Palestinians were not wiped out. I replied that by that definition, neither were the Jews.

  13. JeffB
    JeffB
    April 11, 2014, 10:42 am

    @talknic

    JeffB “Every country is the spoils of colonialist crimes”
    Taknic: Palestine?

    Yes. They got it from the Christian civilization that lived there in the 4th – 7th century. In 613 there is a massacre followed by most of the inhabitants being sold into slavery. The Palestinian civilization (though that’s really applying a 20th century term to a 7th century civilization) arises from that “colonialist crime”.

    • talknic
      talknic
      April 11, 2014, 10:04 pm

      @ JeffB “They got it from the Christian civilization that lived there in the 4th – 7th century”

      Uh? It was already Palestine. Did Palestinians colonize Palestine?

      Until Israel legally annexes the territories it has acquired by war, Palestine 2014 is what remained of Palestine after Israel was “proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947”

    • puppies
      puppies
      April 12, 2014, 12:25 am

      JeffG – 613? That was the massacre of mainly the Byzantine inhabitants by the Sassanid invaders and their allies, the Jewish rebels who had been appointed the Persian’s local enforcers (estimated total victim counts of 17-20,000 persons, mainly on orders of the Jewish administration.) In fact, the Jewish rebels were in their fourth major murderous rebellion in the area. Beware of some distortions, probably intentional, to the Wikipedia text –refer to Kaegi, Howard-Johnson or original Modestos . So the Palestinians at that time were victims of a collusion of the Jews (and Samaritans) of the area against the Byzantines and the majority population.
      No major changes after that. Again, learn the respective locations of your backside and your elbow.

  14. JeffB
    JeffB
    April 11, 2014, 10:46 am

    @eljay

    Ah, yes, the victim chained in the rapist’s bunker is supposed to “dialog” with her captor and oppressor even as he continues to physically and sexually assault her. To insist that he first release her and turn himself in is “maximalist” and “destabilizing”. Why does this horrible woman hate that nice man so much?!

    That kind of rhetoric leads to no possibility of a humane solution. If Israel is a true implacable enemy, like your rapist analogy, then becomes a war to total extermination on both sides. There is nothing to talk about. If you want to view Israel that way, that’s your right. But of course there is no reason what-so-ever for the Israelis to ever want to make peace with people who have such a warped hateful view of them.

    • eljay
      eljay
      April 11, 2014, 1:10 pm

      >> That kind of rhetoric leads to no possibility of a humane solution.

      Only in the mind of a Zio-supremacist can a call for justice, equality and accountability not lead to a humane solution.

      Only in the mind of a Zio-supremacist is the continuation of oppression, land theft, occupation, colonization, destruction, torture, murder and supremacism required in order for a humane solution to be reached.

      The Zio-supremacist mind is a truly ugly place.

    • Hostage
      Hostage
      April 11, 2014, 1:53 pm

      There is nothing to talk about

      In your case, that’s a guarded understatement. If you are going to extend the current round of fruitless talks, you might pick-up a point or two on how to be more effective from a reading of “Ran Greenstein: How to fight the Israel-Apartheid analogy in four easy steps – a guide for useful Hasbara idiots” https://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/ran-greenstein-how-to-fight-the-israel-apartheid-analogy-in-four-easy-steps-a-guide-for-useful-hasbara-idiots/

    • talknic
      talknic
      April 11, 2014, 10:16 pm

      JeffB “That kind of rhetoric leads to no possibility of a humane solution. If Israel is a true implacable enemy, like your rapist analogy, then becomes a war to total extermination on both sides”

      You’re so full of bullsh*t you’ll say anything no matter how illogical. The rapist could stop. The rape victim would not then need to defend themself

      ” If Israel is a true implacable enemy, “

      “If” ?? You’re full of bullsh*t and blind. The Palestinians in front of the world at the UN offered to cede 78% of their rightful territory for peace http://pages.citebite.com/e9p5s8u2yhcd . Israel’s response has been to continue its ILLEGAL expansionist policies, showing itself to be implacable

      ” of course there is no reason what-so-ever for the Israelis to ever want to make peace with people who have such a warped hateful view of them”

      WOW!! Israel should be loved for illegally acquiring non-Israeli territory, dispossessing the rightful inhabitants. Go see a shrink pal

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