Trending Topics:
philweiss
About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

Other posts by .


Posted In:

35 Responses

  1. Citizen
    Citizen
    May 11, 2014, 4:40 pm

    Extremely impressive speech by Max, covering A to Z in current breaking news on Inside Israel, US special relationship, collapse of the latest peace process, providing historical context along the way, and what needs to be done, and who’s doing it, and what are the most effective tactics, and, always pointing out the moral issues behind it all. The first hour is Max talking; the last 5o minutes he does Q & A.

    Set yourself some time to listen–I did some house chores while doing so; if you’re a newbie to the issues and facts, you might be overwhelmed; if you have some knowledge, you will appreciate new things (to you) he relates to what you know, and if you know a lot about the issues, and keep up with them as they unfold, you will appreciate Max’s immense command of it all, his honesty, his high ethics and morality. Just breath-taking. It’s like a condensed, off-the-cuff Goliath (which I’m still wading through).

  2. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    May 12, 2014, 3:50 am

    Max B. tells us that Lieberman is the second most popular man in Israel and Bennett is the 3rd most popular man in Israel. This is not true, although it is useful for his rhetoric. Here are two columns written about recent polls regarding Israel’s cabinet members, in which neither Leiberman nor Bennett fared well. http://www.jpost.com/Features/Front-Lines/Politics-The-Teflon-prime-minister-334156
    http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Poll-Lapid-least-popular-among-ministers-334179
    I don’t know if these two columns give a clear understanding of who stands first as an alternative to Netanyahu, but clearly 972’s Aaron Magid feels that these polls indicate that Lieberman has peaked and is on the way down.

    http://972mag.com/the-downfall-of-avigdor-liberman/90414/

    It seems that Moshe Yaalon, defense minister, is probably the 2nd most popular man in Israel, not Lieberman.

    Of course Max B. gets extra pleasure describing Lieberman as a bar bouncer back in Moldava. Whoever hates Israel obviously will hate a Jewish Israeli who comes from Moldava and bar bouncer adds to the bad odor. But then why add that Lieberman was a baggage handler at Ben Gurion airport? This part of Lieberman’s c.v. is actually worthy of praise, part of the working class. But to an upper middle class, son of the elite, like Max B. physical labor is worthy of disdain. This part of his disdain for Lieberman should be deleted from Max B.’s spiel, along with his outdated info on Lieberman’s popularity. Whereas popularities wax and wane, so who knows what the future holds, there are things that remain constant: among them: disdain for the working class is a permanent stain. This disdain betrays Max B.’s class bias against the working class.

    • Philip Munger
      Philip Munger
      May 12, 2014, 3:59 am

      I didn’t get that out of Max’s description of Lieberman. Look, yonah, Max has slept on the couch in my basement, helped me wash dishes and fed my pets when he was my guest. I’ve seen him interact with people outside the bubble you claim he is trapped within. He’s genuine.

      Not so sure about you, sometimes.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        May 12, 2014, 4:42 am

        Explain to me the usefulness of that aspect of Lieberman’s c.v.? If you have an alternate explanation, other than the disrespecting of the job, please explain. Because that doesn’t seem to reflect Max’s privately manifested persona, does not explain why this statement found its way into Max’s presentation.

        Maybe he was emphasizing Lieberman’s size. The other job- bar bouncer and his other history as ruffian, both emphasize his size and thus a job like baggage handler that emphasizes his size is worthy of mention because he is not only mocking Lieberman’s past as ruffian and bar bouncer, but his mere size. Making fun of fat or big people is something we are currently experiencing in reference to Chris Christie in America.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        May 12, 2014, 6:23 am

        That’s very touching Wondering Jew.

        Tell us why you are so concerned about THIS particular fat guy.

        This particular fat guy is a racist, psychopath.

        I guess you Zionists gotta stick together though.

      • Krusty
        Krusty
        May 12, 2014, 7:44 pm

        OK, I’m not usually the guy to fly this flag, but who could read this post in this context and NOT see it as anti-Semitic?

        Unless I’m missing something, that Wandering Jew crack came out of nowhere, and Zionists is clearly being meant as “you Jews gotta stick together though.”

        Note: I don’t see how you could see Lieberman as anything but a racist and I find his politics deplorable, but his rise from the working class is admirable.

      • annie
        annie
        May 12, 2014, 10:02 pm

        Unless I’m missing something, that Wandering Jew crack came out of nowhere

        you’re missing something. yonah used to post here as wondering jew.

        and Zionists is clearly being meant as “you Jews gotta stick together though.”

        nnnnot really.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        May 12, 2014, 10:14 pm

        Krusty, There was nothing antisemitic at all in the crack. It was just a reaction to yonah’s unhinged defense of Lieberman. (Although I think it was more yonah’s unhealthy obsession with Max at play,)

      • The Hasbara Buster
        The Hasbara Buster
        May 12, 2014, 8:37 am

        @yonah

        I agree with you that citing Lieberman’s dubious credentials is uncalled for. I personally favor a more aseptic approach that mainly takes into account his actions during his tenure as the foreign minister of the State of Israel.

        That being said, it can’t be denied that a) Lieberman is the second most popular politician in Israel in terms of votes received, and b) he treats Israeli Arabs as dhimmis whose citizenship can be revoked, and continually threatens to leave them out of the State (for instance through land swaps that would transfer major Arab towns to the projected Palestinian state) if they don’t behave. Whether he’ll eventually achieve his goals or the country’s High Court will stop him, we don’t know; but the fact that such a rhetoric can be openly displayed without anyone raising an eyebrow is very telling of the racist nature of the State of Israel.

    • talknic
      talknic
      May 12, 2014, 4:57 am

      @ yonah fredman That you care things are correctly stated is so touching.

      OK. Delete Lieberman’s tenure as bouncer, labourer. What should be in there tho are the facts that Lieberman is an illegal Israeli settler, who believes in ethnic cleansing. You will no doubt soon be correcting the Israeli nonsense that Israel didn’t declare borders http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk … the UN is biased against Israel http://wp.me/pDB7k-XU … the JNF bought territory for the state of Israel http://wp.me/pDB7k-yI … etc etc. My you will be busy!

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      May 12, 2014, 6:49 am

      yonah: This is not true, although it is useful for his rhetoric.

      Now how do you know that other sources are true? If you left out the rhetoric yourself, you’d have written: “it depends”.

    • annie
      annie
      May 12, 2014, 8:04 am

      Max B. tells us that Lieberman is the second most popular man in Israel and Bennett is the 3rd most popular man in Israel. This is not true…..recent polls regarding Israel’s cabinet members, in which neither Leiberman nor Bennett fared well.

      i disagree. the jpost link didn’t even ask respondents to rate popularity, it asked them to rate job performance.

      It seems that Moshe Yaalon, defense minister, is probably the 2nd most popular man in Israel

      nope, this only means people rated how well yalon was doing his job. it even goes on to point out: Israelis tend to respect their defense ministers, whereas Finance ministers tend to score low in such polls, because they have to implement painful budget cuts

      popularity is not the same as job performance.

      disdain for the working class is a permanent stain. This disdain betrays Max B.’s class bias against the working class.

      yonah, lieberman is a racist. in the 972 article you linked to it mentioned When addressing Arab-Israeli members of Knesset who supported the Palestinian cause, he called for their execution.

      lieberman is fair game. he’s an ex bar bouncer, for his supporters, this is part of what qualifies him for his job as a politician in israel. people who like him, like that tough guy quality in him. being a bar bouncer is different than being a grade school teacher, and both are working class. he is who he is and should be judged by his words and actions. pegging “distain for the working class” on max is disingenuous under the circumstance. lieberman is a racist thug and he’s fair game.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        May 12, 2014, 10:12 pm

        Annie- You missed my point. Bar bouncer is fair game for anyone who wishes to put Avigdor L. down and there are multiple reasons to do so. But baggage handler is not. Why does Max B. include this in his negative bio of Avigdor L.?

        I am reminded of Goodfellas and where the guy who gets whacked, insults Joe Pesci, “Where’s your shoe shine box?”

        Why does Max B. feel that the baggage handler aspect of Avigdor L.’s history is a vulnerable point? To me, a baggage handler’s job is nothing to disdain. but Max B. thinks that it is a vulnerable point worthy of disdain.

      • talknic
        talknic
        May 12, 2014, 11:06 pm

        @ yonah fredman “You missed my point” Uh? Derailing the conversation is a typical ziotrooper tactic. Do you really think no one has noticed?

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        May 12, 2014, 11:51 pm

        Max isn’t insulting baggage handlers.

        But it’s not common for a damn baggage handler to rise the political ranks anywhere, is it?

        I think the point is to underscore how unqualified AL is.

        He is a racist sideshow who simply appeals to other racists (like yourself).

        So his humble beginnings (as a thug with part-time jobs) emphasizes his shallowness.

        If he were a decent human being, then those humble beginnings would be emphasized in a good light.

    • ckg
      ckg
      May 12, 2014, 9:57 am

      Lieberman’s bar bouncer past has been noted by Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post, Tablet, Haaretz, ynetnews, BBC, Guardian, Telegraph, Reuters, Spiegel, and RT. Max would be remiss if he excluded this detail.

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      May 13, 2014, 9:35 am

      “Of course Max B. gets extra pleasure describing Lieberman as a bar bouncer back in Moldava. Whoever hates Israel obviously will hate a Jewish Israeli who comes from Moldava and bar bouncer adds to the bad odor. But then why add that Lieberman was a baggage handler at Ben Gurion airport? This part of Lieberman’s c.v. is actually worthy of praise, part of the working class. But to an upper middle class, son of the elite, like Max B. physical labor is worthy of disdain. ”

      Any “disdain” you believe is there is wholly a figment of your imagination. Max shows no disdain for the fact that he was a bagage handler. He merely mentions it. What raised his disdain was Lieberman’s acts in physicially assaulting Palestinians, his racist statements against them and his political terrorism regarding their rights.

      It’s interesting that you couldn’t give a damn about that, but are, instead, fixated on fantasies in your head about Max holding disdain for labor.

  3. Philip Munger
    Philip Munger
    May 12, 2014, 3:52 am

    I agree with Citizen. Finally had time to listen to this late this evening. Max starts out a bit diffuse, but ten minutes in to his address he comes into focus and stays that way. An important statement in favor of BDS.

  4. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    May 12, 2014, 6:33 am

    Max again presents the essence of Passover as “in every generation they have risen up to destroy us”. This is his distillation of Passover. He is anti Passover and thus he is useful to those who would overthrow Passover and not those who would attempt to use Passover to create a continuity of Jewishness that somehow overcomes the influence of Zionism. He presents nothing to Jews who want some continuity. He is only of use to the radicals and not to those who see anything positive in continuity.

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      May 12, 2014, 6:51 am

      yonah: He is anti Passover. What does that mean? Oh wait, it means that you can type everything on internet.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        May 12, 2014, 7:08 am

        It means that he has distilled the holiday to one sentence and he opposes the essence of that sentence.

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 12, 2014, 7:58 am

        >> eGuard: What does that mean?

        As y.f. pointed out in this thread, it means that Max is an “Oreo” with no “Jewish street creds”.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      May 12, 2014, 7:08 am

      The aspect of Never Again that refers only to Jews, is in fact wrong and universalizing the phrase “Never Again” to mean never to anybody is right. But one lesson of the Shoah can be taken to be that we who were born in its aftermath have an obligation to continue, to see that the Jewish people has a future. (The nature of that future is unspecified and usually the specifics can be a little tricky. But a commitment to a Jewish future or a commitment to try to figure out how to achieve a Jewish future without the abuses cited by Max B. is not something that is discussed with anything approaching seriousness on MW.) But this is a lesson that Max B. would never even think about, let alone think about seriously.

      • annie
        annie
        May 12, 2014, 8:13 am

        a commitment to try to figure out how to achieve a Jewish future without the abuses cited by Max B…this is a lesson that Max B. would never even think about, let alone think about seriously.

        zzzzzz

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        May 12, 2014, 10:06 pm

        Annie- From time to time Phil comments on “Where to?” regarding the J Street crowd, now that the 2 state solution attempt by John Kerry has failed. He seems to be unable to understand why the youth that supports J Street cannot make the leap to support people like himself and Max B. The youth that supports J Street is not tribalistic to the extent of those that support the hilltop youth (to pick one disturbing form of Jewish tribalism), but nonetheless they have some positive sentiment towards the tribe that J Street feeds and that the politics of Phil and Max B. would starve. Just in terms of understanding the other (in this case the other that might be brought over to your side or closer to your side) my comments about Max B.’s obtuseness to Jewish sensibilities should do more than put you to sleep.

        Of course in your case, you are uninterested in J Street, in the perspective of MJ Rosenberg (in that he derives offense from Max B.), and so all you need to do is wave your flag high and adore Max B. all you want. But those who are engaged in a war of ideas might be interested in the mindset of the opposition, rather than be set in their ways of trashing the sentimentality and logical weakness of J Street. And for those who wish to understand J Street I offer up exhibit number one: Max B. and his disdain for Passover and the Jewish future.

      • American
        American
        May 12, 2014, 9:28 am

        yonah says….

        ” But one lesson of the Shoah can be taken to be that we who were born in its aftermath have an obligation to continue, to see that the Jewish people has a future. ‘>>>>

        If you thought less about yourselves and more about all people you wouldnt have to worry about your future.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        May 12, 2014, 7:33 pm

        Nailed it, American.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        May 12, 2014, 10:58 am

        “But one lesson of the Shoah can be taken to be that we who were born in its aftermath have an obligation to continue, to see that the Jewish people has a future. ”

        Running apartheid and deluded militarism 2.0 is going to secure the future, is it ?

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 12, 2014, 12:09 pm

        >> But one lesson of the Shoah can be taken to be that we who were born in its aftermath have an obligation to continue, to see that the Jewish people has a future. (The nature of that future is unspecified and usually the specifics can be a little tricky. But a commitment to a Jewish future or a commitment to try to figure out how to achieve a Jewish future without the abuses cited by Max B. is not something that is discussed with anything approaching seriousness on MW.) …

        The right of citizens of countries around the world to freely and safely self-identify as Jews is often and seriously discussed on MW. This “Jewish future” is just and moral.

        The alleged “right” of Jews to a supremacist “Jewish State” is also often and seriously discussed on MW. This “Jewish future” is unjust and immoral.

        Perhaps there is another “Jewish future” that is not being discussed?

      • German Lefty
        German Lefty
        May 12, 2014, 12:18 pm

        But one lesson of the Shoah can be taken to be that we who were born in its aftermath have an obligation to continue, to see that the Jewish people has a future.

        Lesson of the Shoah? Oh God, you sound like our politicians. Honestly, I don’t understand the obsession with wanting to draw a lesson from the Holocaust. Why do we need to read a lesson into a past event? That reminds me of paranoid Zionists who try to read anti-Semitism into every statement. “We really need to find some lesson.” is like “We really need to find some anti-Semitism.”
        The Holocaust is a terrible and unnecessary crime that happened. However, the same can be said of all other crimes that have ever happened on the planet. Therefore, in my opinion, there’s no particular lesson that can be drawn specifically from the Holocaust.
        Besides, left-wingers already know that human rights violations are unjust. So, we don’t need a lesson on this issue. Right-wingers, however, will never learn it. So, trying to lecture them is a waste of time.

        Obligation to see that the Jewish people has a future? Honestly, that sounds as if you think that Jews are more precious than non-Jews. Question: Would you be disappointed if a Jewish man chose to marry a non-Jewish woman and to have non-Jewish children? According to your logic, you would have to be disappointed about his decision because he chose to disregard the lesson of the Holocaust, i.e. ensuring the future of the Jewish people.
        If you want to draw a lesson from the Holocaust, then it should be a universal one. Genocide is a crime against humanity, not just a crime against Jewry. So, how about drawing the lesson that we should ensure the continuity of humankind, not just the Jewish people? I mean, I don’t think that humankind would survive a World War III. Therefore, all humans should treat each other humanely.

      • Krusty
        Krusty
        May 12, 2014, 8:03 pm

        “Lesson of the Shoah? Oh God, you sound like our politicians. Honestly, I don’t understand the obsession with wanting to draw a lesson from the Holocaust. Why do we need to read a lesson into a past event? That reminds me of paranoid Zionists who try to read anti-Semitism into every statement. “We really need to find some lesson.” is like “We really need to find some anti-Semitism.””

        …you… don’t see a connection between anti-Semitism and the Holocaust? Or that there’s a lesson to be learned from the systematic destruction of 12 million people (including the attempted extermination of the whole of Jewry which wiped out 2/3’s of Europe’s population)?

        The events of 1881-1945 speak to the need of Jews for a sovereign, safe state of their own, and it was recognized before WWII had reached its ugliest point (Herzl’s career, Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s speech at Warsaw are two obvious examples.)

        The issue today, that Jewish state being realized, secure, and providing ongoing refuge (this year will mark the single largest French Aliyah since 1948 due to rising fears of anti-Semitism), is to secure a 2 state peace deal. A lesson learned is that a people should have a state in which they can be safe and free from persecution.

        While I know it’s an unpopular view on this site, I really do believe that 2 states for 2 peoples is a pragmatic necessity as the most practical, best path forward for Israel and Palestine. A safe, sovereign, prosperous Palestinian state alongside a safe, sovereign, prosperous Israel and deeply integrated economic and security cooperation between the two states will do more to advance the cause of the Palestinian people than the inevitable strife that a one state solution would.

      • talknic
        talknic
        May 12, 2014, 11:19 pm

        @ yonah fredman ” one lesson of the Shoah can be taken to be that we who were born in its aftermath have an obligation to continue, to see that the Jewish people has a future”

        Go tell the Zionist Movement‘s state, illegally acquiring, illegally annexing, illegally settling other folks territory while tainting everything and everyone they touch ISN’T gonna help

  5. John Salisbury
    John Salisbury
    May 12, 2014, 9:29 pm

    One lesson of The Shoah is that almost certainly God does not exist.
    If he does,then he certainly doesn’t answer prayers or intervene in any way with earthly matters….Think of all the wasted words by concentration camp victims beseeching the almighty to stop the carnage.Nothing.Zero.Indifference.Relief only came by way of those atheist Soviet forces who liberated Auschwitz etc….

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      May 12, 2014, 9:54 pm

      J Salisbury- The Russian forces that liberated Auschwitz under the flag of the Soviet Union were not nearly as atheistic as one would ascertain from your comment. The system taught atheism, but less than 30 years after the revolution, to assume that the beliefs of the people were uprooted in that short a period of time is a false assumption.

      • John Salisbury
        John Salisbury
        May 13, 2014, 1:07 am

        Yonah Freedman. Yes that is possible.Then again those that were still religious would have retained their old Christian beliefs.Death camp staff were certainly all baptised into the Christian faith.Does it get us anywhere?

Leave a Reply