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Peter Beinart demolishes Gaza hasbara

Israel/Palestine
on 75 Comments
Peter Beinart

Peter Beinart

There has been a lot of discussion on this site about liberal Zionists and Peter Beinart in particular.  Liberal Zionists have one thing in common:  they ultimately choose ethno-religious preference over what I consider to be the fundamental inviolable principle of equality. But there also is a wide variety of LZ’s, and I have often been enlightened by the honest sort, like Uri Avnery or Jerome Slater, even if we disagree on the nature of an ultimate solution that seems ever more distant.

Case in point:  A column by Beinart in Haaretz, in which he demolishes in painstaking detail the Gaza narrative that would win 110% approval in the US Congress and 99 44/100% approval in the mainstream media:  Israel withdrew from Gaza as a peace overture; Palestinians responded with terror and the election of Hamas; Hamas violently seized power (please don’t notice the apparent contradiction); Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses generously left behind instead of building an economy around them; the blockade was instituted to protect Israelis from terror; blah blah blah.

Most MW readers are not deceived by this historical record that has been repeated so often and consistently in US political discourse, especially in recent weeks to justify the mass murder of defenseless civilians.  But there is a lot of heavy lifting required to expose this narrative for the sham that is, and Beinart has undertaken the task in a thorough and comprehensive manner.  True, I would not endorse every single sentence of this essay, but it is well worth reading.

DaveS
About David Samel

David Samel is an attorney in New York City.

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75 Responses

  1. Krauss
    Krauss
    July 31, 2014, 10:19 am

    The same Peter Beinart who admitted that he could live with Palestinians not having full citizenship rights. Don’t forget.

    In the end, when the chips are down, ALL “liberal” Zionists choose ethnocracy over democracy. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be Zionists.

    • Ellen
      Ellen
      July 31, 2014, 10:52 am

      So true. It is about the Tribe and not fellow humanity.

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      July 31, 2014, 11:04 am

      Yes, he’s a Zionist. And not a brave one. He could have written “Stop it, Israel”. Weeks ago.

    • tokyobk
      tokyobk
      July 31, 2014, 11:53 am

      Though Peter said that about liberal Zionism because he as always tried to keep his beliefs reality based. Others have simply said “What? What occupation, what discrimination? Where?” and the ignored contradictions between enshrining ethnic nationalism in the state versus democracy.

      He and others who have the understanding that what they believe must conform to and be explained by what actually is, will reformulate and some will stop calling themselves Zionist. He can’t and won’t ignore the consequences of Gaza. Why now and not 2009? A few reasons why this is different. Mainly, the lead up and motivations for this are not deniable and so the rationalization is not believable. 2009 was mostly discussed among those interested and partisan. This time the twitter feed and the horrific imagery has broken into the mainstream. People who have had no personal or ideological attachment to I/P are believing their own eyes and what it looks like to them is a massacre. That can’t really be contextualized.

      Israel is simply behind the curve of a narrative it used to completely own and is flailing.

      In terms of PR abilities, Dermer is no Oren either. No where near the former ambassador to the US in talking skills.

      • Donald
        Donald
        July 31, 2014, 12:22 pm

        “Why now and not 2009? A few reasons why this is different. Mainly, the lead up and motivations for this are not deniable and so the rationalization is not believable. 2009 was mostly discussed among those interested and partisan. This time the twitter feed and the horrific imagery has broken into the mainstream. People who have had no personal or ideological attachment to I/P are believing their own eyes and what it looks like to them is a massacre. That can’t really be contextualized.”

        I think that’s basically it. Things were much more deniable even in the recent past. Not on a logical or empirical level–there was plenty of evidence that Israel used indiscriminate firepower, but all people had to do was utter the mantra “human shields” and that was the end of the discussion for most. To take an earlier example, Human Rights Watch did an analysis of the war crimes of both sides in Lebanon 2006. And they rebutted the “hid behind the civilian population” meme quite effectively. But it had zero impact on politicians or mainstream pundits and certainly most Americans, who probably don’t even remember the war by now. No one except activists and obsessives will go online and look for an HRW report. So people (like Barack Obama at the AIPAC convention in 2007) could say that Israel fought people who used civilians as human shields and take for granted that no one would challenge him. The “human shield” meme gets deeply embedded in people’s brains as something they know is a fact, and so even now many people still believe it is the all purpose excuse, but with Western reporters on the scene it isn’t as effective as it used to be.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 31, 2014, 2:10 pm

        I say, it’s the growth of the internet as an alternative source from mainstream news, coupled with expansion of smart phones. Both are boons to actually informed consent, which once was viewed theoretically as a core of democracy in America. Actually it wasn’t. Those poor dough boys, for example. Or, way back how the US government stole Mexican land… LOL, now the Mexicans are getting it back through the Chiquita wombs a la Palestinian wombs.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 31, 2014, 5:42 pm

        ” LOL, now the Mexicans are getting it back through the Chiquita wombs”

        I can’t keep up. What’s a Chiquita womb, and how do they get your land back?

    • The JillyBeans
      The JillyBeans
      July 31, 2014, 12:17 pm

      If anyone else in another country proposed a resident visa but not full citizenship for their Jewish populations, Mr Beinart would probably have a problem.

      Choose all, or admit you’re a bigot.

    • amirflesher
      amirflesher
      July 31, 2014, 3:37 pm

      This is a factually inaccurate statemen. Zionism is not necessarily, and by definition ethnocentric. Since it’s inception, there has been a cultural Zionist (Hebrew humanist) streak in the movement, that while marginal, has persisted in various forms, and that despite it’s failure to win the ideological heart and mind of the mainstream of Israeli society, is a prominent part of contemporary Israel in both overt and more subtle ways.

      Today’s heirs of this movement include everything from the many Israelis who, though they identify culturally as something close to what we might call “Hebrews” are largely apathetic about Zionism as an ideology, (I know literally dozens of people like this) to the heart of the co-existence, human rights, and refuser movements, which is not, by definition, anti-Zionist–Combatants for Peace, Bereaved Family Circle, Gush Shalom, B’Tselem, Breaking the Silence, Yesh Gvul, and Ta’ayush come to mind. That is to say, many people who are active, or have been active with these organizations, are if not whole heartily Zionist, not particularly anti-Zionist. Mostly, Zionism is not their concern.

      Rather, the work these groups transcends abstract ideology, instead choosing to focus on concrete reality–that is, lessening the suffering caused by harmful polices to human beings by working to change these policies and practices, rather than being fixated on violations of abstract principles of justice.

      In this sense, Zionism, or rejection of it, are largely irrelevant to working towards making people’s lives better in Israel and Palestine.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 1, 2014, 3:03 pm

        In this sense, Zionism, or rejection of it, are largely irrelevant to working towards making people’s lives better in Israel and Palestine.

        You were doing okay, up until that point. But you are leaving out the fact that other than those organizations and individuals you mentioned, Zionism is a completely ethnocentric state undertaking supported by the overwhelming majority of the population and it is legally entrenched in fundamental laws, ministerial regulations, and landmark court rulings.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 1, 2014, 5:14 pm

        “Zionism is a completely ethnocentric state undertaking supported by the overwhelming majority of the population and it is legally entrenched in fundamental laws, ministerial regulations, and landmark court rulings.”

        Yes, but apart from everything real, everything which actually makes Israel work, he’s right.

  2. seafoid
    seafoid
    July 31, 2014, 10:28 am

    Have to say I have been impressed by Beinart and especially MJRosenberg this week.
    This Gaza op is a shibboleth for Jews. MJR says there is no point in bringing up the Shoah while cheering on Netanyahu.

    Gaza is going to fight right until the end. Israel is going to destroy the conditions of life in the Strip. Israel is beyond saving. 95% approval says it all.
    The question is where do people go from here

    • Donald
      Donald
      July 31, 2014, 10:38 am

      “Israel is beyond saving. 95% approval says it all.”

      I’m less pessimistic as far as individual Israelis are concerned. That’s war psychosis and living in a giant echo chamber at work. I’m sure some of those people will be deeply ashamed of themselves eventually. Look at Andrew Sullivan–he was a crazed freaking lunatic after 9/11 (and not so great before). He still says stupid things sometimes, but at the normal human rate, not the “Give me a break, I’m being as stupid as humanly possible” level, so the difference between what he was then and what he is now is like night and day. Or at least midnight and dawn.

      That said, you’d need a majority of Israelis to change. And soon. Kerry’s apparent suggestion that the blockade be lifted (or whatever he actually did say and I’m not clear on whether anyone knows) seems to have pushed them over the edge.

      • W.Jones
        W.Jones
        July 31, 2014, 11:24 am

        Donald,
        What is going to make that “eventually” happen in the case of the Israelis? In the case of the US, there were no such further incidents, and thus Americans relaxed like Sullivan. However, the Israelis are acting as prison guards over a population bigger than them all the time. There is a studied psychological effect of being a prison guard, and statistics say that the State’s attitudes are getting worse, unfortunately.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        July 31, 2014, 11:27 am

        95% means only one in 20 sees civilians being slaughtered by the IDF. Even allowing for war that is appalling. Israel is well on the way to fascism. It’ s not just this either. The incitement that led to the abu khdeir lynching. Levy has à bodyguard. The treatment of zoabi. Shavit. The only glint of light is the economic damage. They had to cut interest rates.

      • Donald
        Donald
        July 31, 2014, 12:08 pm

        It is appalling. But I still think it is in part mass hysteria. Some people are just haters and they are unreachable, but not everyone. I remember what the US was like after 9/11, even on much of the left. Anyone who even hinted at how US policy might have contributed to a situation where the attacks were applauded was denounced as at best a moral idiot and at worst as someone who said the victims had it coming. And that wasn’t just the rightwingers saying that crap. It took years for some people to snap out of it.

      • DaveS
        DaveS
        July 31, 2014, 12:35 pm

        Very true, Donald. US public enthusiasm for Gulf War I and Afghan and Iraq wars was just as high initially. It’s human nature more than something unique to Israel

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        July 31, 2014, 12:49 pm

        9/11 was out of The blue , real wtf, not the 3rd time in 6 years. The right have destroyed the isr éducation system and they own the media . And US was never 95%.

      • Sycamores
        Sycamores
        July 31, 2014, 1:13 pm

        @ Donald,

        can you clarify please.

        are you saying the 95% of Israelis attitudes towards Palestinian civilians deaths by the IDF is a knee jerk reaction comparable to the American public immediately after 9/11 towards denying US policy might have contributed to a situation?

        if that’s correct i have two questions.

        a/ Israeli knee jerk reaction to what? the murder of the three Israeli settlers teens? or penned up racism ready to exploded.?

        b/ does Israeli government, racist incitement, policies, laws, maintaining occupation, settlements and media etc have any part in influencing the Israeli public opinion over the years?

        US public after 9/11 was spontaneous but Israeli public response is not. both appalling but different.

      • Donald
        Donald
        July 31, 2014, 3:07 pm

        Sycamore–I had a longer post, but deleted most of it. Probably should have left it.

        I think it’s living in an echo chamber, plus the rockets and hasbara from birth that all go into it. I know the rockets are a joke compared to what Gazans are going through, which is literally hundreds of times worse. But Westerners having to run to bomb shelters–I can imagine how white Southerners might have reacted if (in some parallel universe) some black nationalist group that believed in violence as the solution got hold of some bottle rockets and fired them at white suburbanites in some Southern city in 1960 They would have gone absolutely nuts. Probably even many of the white liberals would have gone nuts. Israelis are always asking us to imagine how we’d react to having rockets fired at us. Fine–it’s not that hard, but one has to establish a context for it. People who are in a top position tend to go crazy if the underdogs (whatever form that happens to take) start shooting at them. They were leading a nice comfortable life, minding their own business (in their own narcissistic minds) and now they have to listen for warnings and be prepared to run for cover.

        As for 9/11, how many Americans were prepared to think about how our foreign policy might have led to some people overseas cheering? Which was wrong, but would have been natural for, say, the victims of the Iraq sanctions. Not too many. It was out of the blue, but actually, there’d been a serious attempt on the WTC years before and people commonly speculated that one day there’d be a big terror attack. It still came as a tremendous shock when it happened, but it wasn’t really quite out of the blue and anyone paying attention knew we’d done things overseas that earned hatred. But darn few people were prepared to talk about that on 9/12 or for years.

      • Sycamores
        Sycamores
        July 31, 2014, 3:57 pm

        thanks Donald

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 31, 2014, 1:08 pm

        Kerry’s apparent suggestion that the blockade be lifted (or whatever he actually did say and I’m not clear on whether anyone knows) seems to have pushed them over the edge.

        Justice Minister Tzipi Livni (Hatnua) told US Secretary of State John Kerry on Friday that his proposal for a week long cease-fire of Israel’s Gaza campaign was “completely unacceptable” and that it “would have strengthened extremists in the region.”

        The justice minister told Israel Radio on Sunday that over the course of the day on Friday, Kerry’s proposal had improved.

        By Friday afternoon, just before Shabbat, the security cabinet unanimously rejected Kerry’s proposal which the ministers believed did not sufficiently ensure either continued Israeli activity against the Gaza terror tunnels or dismantling the rocket infrastructure, while giving Hamas significant concessions regarding lifting the blockade around the coastal enclave.

        http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Livni-tells-Kerry-his-cease-fire-proposal-completely-unacceptable-for-Israel-369054

      • eljay
        eljay
        July 31, 2014, 6:27 pm

        >> Donald: Israelis are always asking us to imagine how we’d react to having rockets fired at us. Fine–it’s not that hard, but one has to establish a context for it.

        Zio-supremacists are the guys who ask “How would you like it if women kept attacking you and punching you and trying to hurt you? How would you react?!” without mentioning that the women in question are the physically- and sexually-assaulted victims the rapist has had chained in his bunker for months.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 31, 2014, 2:16 pm

        If you go on Youtube you can find a video wherein Israelis, mostly younger Israelis, are asked the question, ” Why does the world hate the Jews?” You will hear all the classic anti-semite memes, “because we are smarter, because they are jealous of our abilities to be tops no matter where we land,” etc. Many also point out the horrors other states do, say the world ignores those states, and always jumps on Israel instead, etc. Only two of those interviewed even makes a distinction between Israelis and Jews, between criticism of Israeli conduct and blanket anti-semite charges of yore. Kharma does not look unlikely.

    • Ellen
      Ellen
      July 31, 2014, 10:46 am

      Where do we go from here?

      The unfolding horror in Gaza is realization of the worst fears: that Israel would commit crimes against a people so horrific, that the world and even many Zionists and “pro Israeli” supporters of the colonial project, would look back in shame and disgust. This is starting to happen.

      It is not about the rockets, the tunnels or even about Hamas. Israel will not stop until Gaza is emptied of most all Palestinians. Gaza will be occupied once again. That is where this is going.

      The US will support this as it unfolds. They have put themselves in a position where pulling support now is practically impossible.

      But in time — and after the process of killing and possession for the Zionist religious nationalist cause has run it’s course — US and world support will fall completely away. And Israel will be alone to sustain it’s colonial expansion in a rapidly changing ME.

      • John Douglas
        John Douglas
        July 31, 2014, 11:07 am

        “It is not about the rockets, the tunnels or even about Hamas. Israel will not stop until Gaza is emptied of most all Palestinians.”

        Israel will not live with Palestinians as equals, it cannot kill them all, it cannot deport them all, it cannot maintain an apartheid rule over the long term. It can, however, make their lives unlivable in their land so that they are forced to emigrate or die. Will Gaza be able to sustain a human population after Israel is finished with it? Perhaps what we see in Gaza is a rehearsal for things to come in the West Bank.

    • just
      just
      July 31, 2014, 10:55 am

      I am hopeful. But really, if MJR and PB et al were in full support of this genocide, then where do they land in the blood- soaked present of Gaza and its’ aftermath?

      How will they explain it all?

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        July 31, 2014, 2:39 pm

        MJR and PB are disgusted by it and by the destructive Israeli lobby. That is how they explain it.

        But both somehow cling to ideas behind Zionism — the need for an ethno religious nationalist state for a single group.

        It’s kinda’ weird how two bright guys cannot see what many Jews saw and see: that Zionism is kryptonite for Judaism and Jews of faith or culture.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 31, 2014, 6:00 pm

      “The question is where do people go from here”

      Israel will go into an orgy of self-recrimination, confession, guilt, and reconciliation with the Palestinians. They’ll start the very day after the last Palestinians is driven out or killed. Ah, but oh, how they will howl and rend their garments and cry ” Oy, Mein Culpa“.
      Their only comfort will be the fact that there are no more (not as any kind of a viable polity) Palestinians.
      Naturally, I’m sure you understand, Seafoid, they can’t do this while the Palestinians are still around, it would be unseemly.

      • Sycamores
        Sycamores
        July 31, 2014, 10:36 pm

        Mooser and Ellen,

        zionism has failed similar to other nationlistic endeavours

        zionism could have survived if they show 1 oz of compassion, they didn’t and now I won’t.

  3. Felipe
    Felipe
    July 31, 2014, 10:39 am

    Unfortunately the article is behind Haaretz’s paywall. If you don’t have a premium subscription, you cannot access it. Is there any other way to people to access the full article?

    • ckg
      ckg
      July 31, 2014, 11:01 am
      • DaveS
        DaveS
        July 31, 2014, 11:05 am

        Thanks ckg. The haaretz version was available to me yesterday despite the paywall, and I thought they were making it available to everyone.

      • ckg
        ckg
        July 31, 2014, 11:33 am

        You’re welcome. Unlike the NYT paywall, the Haaretz paywall seems to be solidly constructed.

      • DaveS
        DaveS
        July 31, 2014, 11:35 am

        You are right about both, ckg.

      • just
        just
        July 31, 2014, 11:44 am

        And that goes to the extreme importance and value of the sourced articles, scrutiny and discussion that MW provides.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 31, 2014, 1:16 pm

        Unlike the NYT paywall, the Haaretz paywall seems to be solidly constructed.

        I subscribe to Haaretz despite the fact that you can usually just copy and paste the link into Google search and then click the small down arrow next to the resulting headline link and select the Google cache version of the story from the drop down box.

      • piotr
        piotr
        July 31, 2014, 11:39 am

        If it works like NYT, you may see several stories per month and some of us could be over the limit. (Just checked, you have to pay. Sorry Haaretz, no shekel from piotr).

      • ckg
        ckg
        July 31, 2014, 12:00 pm

        If I want to read, say, Roger Cohen’s latest op-ed, I just google news search “Roger Cohen” and click on the right link when I’ve found it. It works regardless of how many stories I’ve read that month.

  4. just
    just
    July 31, 2014, 10:45 am

    Thank you David. Would that Israeli mothers and fathers gave more of a dam* about the children, their neighbors and the human race. I still don’t believe in liberal Zionism– a terrible oxymoron– but I do believe in Jewish people devoted to justice and peace and truth. Israel faces it’s biggest and only threat from within.

    I wish Beinart and his family good luck in their journey toward the light.

    (and might I say that the effort to impeach President Obama is insane– but, I’d dearly love to have a referendum on our unfailing support for the Apartheid Occupation Terrorist state of Israel!)

    • American
      American
      July 31, 2014, 12:49 pm

      ” and might I say that the effort to impeach President Obama is insane”’

      The GOP impeach/sue Obama is a ‘fund raising game’ and the Dem hysterics over it is also a fund raising game.
      Doing the donkey for Israel, suing Obama, defending Obama, the optimal time for Isr attack on Gaza—–all perfect opportunity time in mid term elections.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 31, 2014, 2:47 pm

      @just
      I feel/think the same as you on all what you say here. I back all people who really inform themselves to support justice, no matter the issue or context. The I-P issue is only one of a myriad bones of contention, but it’s the one that impacts domestically and simultaneously overseas the most, by far. In my entire old geezer life, I have not supported any US war, nor do I support how the US Congress prioritizes US foreign aid. I’m still waiting for a change in The Fed, the IRS too. The list goes on. Hasbara bots here are always complaining about how Israel is picked on, while worse is happening done by other states. But they don’t realize some of us Americans, born and bred, grumble about a lot more than the relatively narrow concerns of MW
      blog. Those gots also never seem aware that John Q Public is bombarded night and day by US government spokes folks and mainstream Media with how wonderful Israel is, such an ally, such a saint! Such a helpless innocent victim. You can’t name another foreign state given so much in aid, diplomatic immunity, and praise by America. I mean, it’s not like any American alive likes Saudi Arabia. But the real oil comes from AIPAC/Israel. Oily bunch. At least we an actually benefit from SA’s natural supply–to run our cars. Quid pro quo.

  5. Jim Holstun
    Jim Holstun
    July 31, 2014, 11:08 am

    Pretty useful. Still, there’s a huge contradiction between the first part of the piece, in which Beinart talks about Sharon’s withdrawal from Gaza serving the ends of the Occupation, and the last two paragraphs of the essay, which restore the Hamas Mooslim Boogeyman, which cunningly tricked Israel: “Israel has repeatedly played into Hamas’ hands by not strengthening those Palestinians willing to pursue statehood through nonviolence and mutual recognition.”

    As if that were ever Israel’s goal. Beinart can’t admit that its actual goal is a semi-fascist militarized state, dead Palestinians, and a school reduced to bloody rubble.

  6. Kay24
    Kay24
    July 31, 2014, 11:10 am

    I have watched Peter take on zionist shills and I have admired the way he debates, with facts and the truth. He is only one of the few liberal Jews who has the courage to take them on, knowing the attacks on him will intensify. He has not been intimidated so far.

    Here is someone in them media who seems to have had enough of the massacre going on in Gaza. Although when he started this segment, he made sure he mentioned he supports Israel a hundred percent. Still Joe Scarborough was surprisingly critical of the nation that causes fear among the media, even Jon Stewart is very mild in his criticism, it comes in subtle forms.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/joe-scarborough-israel-gaza_n_5637408.html

  7. Kay24
    Kay24
    July 31, 2014, 11:17 am

    Anyone wanting to email or call on WH comments line:
    Time we flooded them with emails or calls, calling for the US to stop arming Israel and giving it aid.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/write-or-call

    • Ellen
      Ellen
      July 31, 2014, 11:46 am

      More effective is to flood Congress and the Senate. Those guys want to be re elected and your money. If being lap dogs for the Knesset starts to threaten their cash or re election, you will see change.

      • just
        just
        July 31, 2014, 11:50 am

        And don’t let up even though they are taking a 5 wk recess. Fill their inboxes and voicemailboxes.

        They’ve been worse than hopeless on this and many other issues– it’s past time for us to hold them accountable for their sheer lousiness and wrongness.

        This is fundraising time, cut them off.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        July 31, 2014, 12:06 pm

        They have made it hard for those outside their constituency to email.
        They keep asking for zip codes, to only respond to their own voters.
        The rats.

      • American
        American
        July 31, 2014, 12:51 pm

        Call them instead.

        1- 877-762-8762

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        July 31, 2014, 2:45 pm

        Kay24

        The Sunlight foundation has a great app which gives all contact details and telephone numbers. Their staff should take calls. They track calls.

        http://sunlightfoundation.com/tools/

        One can also track bills, etc.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        July 31, 2014, 6:40 pm

        Thanks for the link Ellen.

  8. PeaceThroughJustice
    PeaceThroughJustice
    July 31, 2014, 11:32 am

    In Haaretz? What good does that do towards educating the American public? It appears Beinart regards his work as straightening out “his people’s” minds, even when he knows the occupation is really taking place here in Washington. It’s the tribal perspective of all Zionism.

  9. eljay
    eljay
    July 31, 2014, 12:20 pm

    Good for Beinart for temporarily setting aside his supremacist “Jewish State” advocacy.

  10. scott9854958
    scott9854958
    July 31, 2014, 12:28 pm

    It’s fine that Peter is “demolishing” the Likud propaganda over this effort, and I salute him for it. However, why is this debate occurring entirely within the Jewish community? Where are the gentile political leaders who are willing to take on the Chuck Schumers and the Steve Israels in a no holds barred debate? Last I checked my tax dollars were paying for this ongoing massacre too and I’m not Jewish. I guess taking on the Israel lobby is absolutely verboten for a gentile. The ultimate career killer. It’s sad how cowed we have become.

  11. michelle
    michelle
    July 31, 2014, 1:03 pm

    .
    why if Israel without the go ahead from Palestine can
    make changes that deeply affect Palestine
    why can’t Palestine and its friends / supporters do as much
    without the go ahead from Israel
    oh right Israel will kill any and all who get in ‘their’ way
    (i would say Israel and its supporters except Israel lies to everyone
    any support / friendship …. is founded on lies thereby baseless)
    .
    so in effect Palestine has been trying to follow the rules
    whilst Israel will accept no rules
    .
    yet the world leaders with all their school papers that credit them with
    good sense
    take the side of the milk money stealing bully who has taken
    a gun to school and is killing everyone
    how can we teach these ‘our’ children right from wrong when we ourselves
    chose to side with wrong
    how can any of us look into the eyes of ‘our’ children and tell them to do as we say but not as we do
    how can we tell them to be fair and just and to look after those who are weaker
    how can we say we are good role models when we are the example of abuse
    how can we tell our children we love them
    .
    Jesus was a liberal Jew
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

  12. seafoid
    seafoid
    July 31, 2014, 1:36 pm

    Beinart has to distance himself . The next stage could involve a. typhoid. or MRSA outbreak . With 95% support in Israël.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 31, 2014, 3:04 pm

      Rabid Zionists think Beinart is anti-Jew because he allowed Max Blumenthal a voice and has a problem with illegal Israeli settlements in the WB. In the rabid Zionist view, Blumenthal’s mother is a shiksa and he’s the modern Nazi-apologist, Father Coughlin: http://pjmedia.com/ronradosh/2013/12/30/the-anti-semitic-jew-max-blumenthal-and-how-peter-beinart-views-his-repulsive-views/?singlepage=true
      Dick & Jane, go, “Huh?” US Congress just gave more $ for Iron dome, and Pentagon just gave Israel open access to replace munitions spent on Gaza kids, take what U want from USA’s $1B stockpile in Israel. It’s just a matter of getting rid of ammo beyond its shelf life. No WH or Congressional OK needed. Meanwhile, how many Americans on food stamps? How many Detroiters with their water cut off?

  13. Qualtrough
    Qualtrough
    July 31, 2014, 2:20 pm

    I know it will never happen, but I wish the US government’s words of condemnation today were followed up by Obama addressing the nation to tell us that he was sending aid and a hospital ship to Gaza and that all aid to Israel was suspended. He could close by telling Netanyahu to go suck an egg if he doesn’t like it.

  14. DoubleStandard
    DoubleStandard
    July 31, 2014, 3:49 pm

    To the Palestinians, liberation means no Israel. So yes, they are going to be oppressed.

    Liberal Zionists are fine — misguided and unwilling to come to grips with the reality of people who are religiously-compelled to establish Islamic sovereignty over your land, but at bottom still embrace the fundamental notion that Jews should have a national homeland in Palestine.

  15. tree
    tree
    July 31, 2014, 4:03 pm

    David,

    The link to Haaretz in your piece is broken and goes to a 404 error page at Haaretz for me. I think there is some error at the end of your link.

    If I erase the last 4 characters ( ,%20 ) then I get the Haaretz paywall for the article. However, if I follow Hostage’s suggestion, and paste the corrected link into Google search and use the down arrow to access the cache version then I can see the PB piece on Haaretz. Thanks, Hostage.

    • DaveS
      DaveS
      July 31, 2014, 4:31 pm

      tree, Hostage’s suggestion is great in general, but here, ckg (above) was kind enough to supply a link to peter-beinart.com, where the article also appears

      • tree
        tree
        July 31, 2014, 5:38 pm

        Thanks, David. I saw ckg’s link above and read the article there. But Hostage’s suggestion is usable for any article from Haaretz as well as this one.

        And this may be my fault for adding too many different elements to my short comment, but the main point I was trying to convey was that your link to Haaretz in the your piece above was broken, so you might want to correct it.

        As I’ve said many times before, I always appreciate your contributions here.

      • DaveS
        DaveS
        July 31, 2014, 5:41 pm

        thanks, tree, and I always find your comments thoughtful and interesting. I’ll see if I have the techno-savvy to fix this

  16. eGuard
    eGuard
    July 31, 2014, 5:38 pm

    Mondoweiss should not glorify Peter Beinart. Or even link to. He made his own point very clear: Zionism.

  17. Jerome Slater
    Jerome Slater
    July 31, 2014, 6:57 pm

    In light of David Samel’s kind comment, I would like to clarify my position, re liberal Zionism. First, it’s important–at least to me–to separate out the arguments for a Jewish state at the time it was created and whether it should continue to be a Jewish state today. In 1948 I think there was a very powerful argument for a Jewish state–somewhere–in light of the Holocaust and many other periods throughout history of murderous anti-Semitism. That said, in principle the state should have been established either someplace where the people living there consented to it–probably there was no such place–or, much better, in parts of conquered Germany, where the consent of its people was entirely unnecessary.

    By 1948, tragically, all non-Palestinian options for a Jewish state were dead.
    So then the question became whether the state could have been established in a way that did minimal injustice to the Palestinian people. If the Nakba had been the only way Israel could have been created, then it shouldn’t have been created. The complexity is that there might well have been other non-coercive methods. (I’ve discussed them elsewhere–see, for example, Jonathan Freedland’s brief discussion of my ideas in his article on liberal Zionism in the current NY Review. )

    What about now? Is there still a justification for a Jewish state? In the abstract, and with a number of qualifications, there might be–given history, the need for a refuge for persecuted or endangered Jews cannot be ruled out, especially if other countries are not willing to accept large numbers.

    That’s in the abstract. The problem is the kind of state Israel has become: I won’t mince words, it is becoming, or already is, a criminal state–and with the strong support of most of its Jewish population. That surely undermines the case for Zionism today.

    • Djinn
      Djinn
      July 31, 2014, 11:09 pm

      In 1948 I think there was a very powerful argument for a Jewish state–somewhere–in light of the Holocaust and many other periods throughout history of murderous anti-Semitism. That said, in principle the state should have been established either someplace where the people living there consented to it–probably there was no such place–or, much better, in parts of conquered Germany, where the consent of its people was entirely unnecessary.

      By this logic, after 65 years of discrimination, ethnic cleansing, occupation and murder, the consent of Israelis should not be neccesary in order to establish a Palestinian state on land that is now Israel?

      Then there’s a whole lot of work to be done to establish a Romany state, a homosexual state, a Rohingya state, a Transgender state, a Female state and a shitload more states for a large number of groups who’ve faced constant prejudice and oppression too.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 1, 2014, 11:17 am

        “That surely undermines the case for Zionism today.”

        And having made that admission, Mr Slater can now go back to Zionism-as-usual. The admission was enough, so noble it completely removes any obligation to do anything. And naturally, an admission so holy certainly excuses us from all reparations, or even much of an adjustment. And of course, we are obligated to take all such admissions and apologies as genuine! I mean, who, based on their record, could ever mistrust a Zionist? Or an officer and gentleman, for that matter?

        Djinn, you are missing a very important historical difference between the groups you mention and the Jews (or at least the ones who count) . We’ve jumped from that class to ‘white man’ status, so completely different standards apply. Those other distasteful people you mention would be happy just having equal rights, within the countries they live in. But of course, that’s not good enough for us. we are owed much, much more!

        You will be hearing a lot of back-pedaling, admissions, and apologies, until this all dies down. It’s called “conciliatory Hasbara

        And as far as the case for Zionism, what else have we tried, or put any energy or money towards? But I guess the fate of Jews in for example, the US, and of course, what’s happened for other minorities in the US showed there was no use in that!.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        August 1, 2014, 2:21 pm

        Then there’s a whole lot of work to be done to establish a Romany state, a homosexual state, a Rohingya state, a Transgender state, a Female state and a shitload more states for a large number of groups who’ve faced constant prejudice and oppression too.

        Israel was always required to incorporate the Palestinian inhabitants in the new Israeli nationality on the legal basis of complete equality and non-discrimination. The problem with your logic is that you are repeating the old Zionist nonsense that scattered Jewish groups were a nation. But nations are spatial entities that can fulfill the requisite criteria for statehood regarding a population and a well defined territory, without violating the rights of others. That doesn’t apply to scattered ethnic or cultural minority groups.

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      August 1, 2014, 8:14 am

      Jerome Slater: I won’t mince words, it is becoming, or already is, a criminal state –and with the strong support of most of its Jewish population. That surely undermines the case for Zionism today.

      Before and in 1948 Zionism was using terrorism, racism and ethnically cleansing too. “the complexity is” – beware of writers saying it’s complex. It’s a red flag for: “I support Zionism, but have not figured out yet how to make its racism acceptable”.

      (By the way, you write “undermines”, for a criminal state: sure that’s words unminced. I’m impressed).

    • eljay
      eljay
      August 1, 2014, 1:33 pm

      >> J.S.: In 1948 I think there was a very powerful argument for a Jewish state–somewhere …

      No there wasn’t. A “Jewish State” would have been as supremacist then as it is now. The correction response to injustice has been and always should be justice and accountability. “Supremacist state” is never the right answer.

      >> … in principle the state should have been established either someplace where the people living there consented to it–probably there was no such place …

      Not surprising: Why would people anywhere consent to becoming second-class citizens in a supremacist state?

      >> … –or, much better, in parts of conquered Germany, where the consent of its people was entirely unnecessary.

      No, not better, and grossly more unjust than establishing a supremacist state where the indigenous population might actually agree to it.

      >> … Is there still a justification for a Jewish state?

      “Still” implies that there was justification in the first place. Which there wasn’t.

      >> In the abstract, and with a number of qualifications, there might be–given history, the need for a refuge for persecuted or endangered Jews cannot be ruled out, especially if other countries are not willing to accept large numbers.

      In abstract, maybe. In fact, there is no more of a need today for a supremacist “Jewish State” than there was after WWII.

      >> That surely undermines the case for Zionism today.

      There never was a case for Zionism – that is, for the creation of a supremacist “Jewish State”.

  18. just
    just
    July 31, 2014, 7:15 pm

    Thank you, Jerome.

    I have to say that from where I have been watching all of my life, that Israel is a criminal state. Its’ descent has been methodical and willful.

  19. RoHa
    RoHa
    August 1, 2014, 6:05 am

    Sydney Jewish “leaders” whine about a cartoon.

    British Jewish “leaders” whine about Prescott’s comments.

    (“John Prescott was last night accused of being ‘deeply offensive’ to Jewish people by comparing the Gaza Strip to a concentration camp.
    The leaders of Britain’s Jews criticised the comments by the former deputy prime minister, saying they ‘trivialised’ the Holocaust and called on Labour officials to investigate his ‘misconduct’.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711447/John-Prescott-accused-trivialising-Holocaust-comparing-Gaza-strip-concentration-camp.html )

    And that, it seems, is what they care about. As far as they are concerned, the situation is only serious if Jews get their feelings hurt.

  20. Mooser
    Mooser
    August 1, 2014, 11:30 am

    Zionists will say anything, it costs them nothing. Call me when they actually do something.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 1, 2014, 5:21 pm

      After all at the rate Zionists are admitting that Zionism may have a bad point or two, by the time they are actually willing to make any changes, all the Palestinians will be gone.
      What these guys are trying to do is put off the moment when power will be applied, rather than persuasion, to change the situation. To avoid that, men like Slater will say anything. Please notice, through he makes seems to make a lot of ‘admissions’ he willing to say what they ‘shouldn’t’ have done those many years ago, but he won’t say that Israel must give up anything, oh, I suppose he may answer and say he’s always been against the Occupation.

  21. SQ Debris
    SQ Debris
    August 1, 2014, 3:11 pm

    He’s still banging pans about a 2ss, but there’s something in his eyes. Doubt. He also has been ever so polite in not taking down the dershbag as a plagiarist and fabricator.

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