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‘Racist, fascist bullshit’– Marcel Ophuls exposes Islamophobia in Israel

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Another sign of the great change afoot in our political culture. The New York Times has a great piece by Robert Mackey on the legendary director Marcel Ophuls’s new film project about Israel, “Unpleasant Truths,” for which he is raising money. Mackey says Ophuls is skeptical of Zionism.

Unlike some of his contemporaries, that wartime experience [fleeing the Nazis in 1933 and 1941] left Mr. Ophuls wary of embracing the Zionist dream of a homeland for the Jews in the Middle East.

Actually it’s better than that. In the delicious 12-minute trailer the Times has posted to its site, Ophuls says of his father: “He thought the Jews’ destiny in the 20th century was to be cosmopolites. Against nationalism.” And asked if he is a Zionist, Ophuls winces. “Not at all.”

Then he interviews Michel Warschawski saying that the Israel lobby in France is “importing” a religious conflict from Israel to France (what Scott McConnell said about the special relationship as the “transmission belt” of bad ideas to the U.S.), and Ophuls points out the poisonous fruits of Zionism. Palestinians live in a “prison” in the West Bank, he says, “it’s apartheid.” Then we see rightwing demonstrators opposing marriage of Jews and Arabs and shouting “Death to Arabs!” In the New York Times! Ophuls is showing up Jodi Rudoren.

Bringing the Debate to You

And notice how shocked and offended the great old man is by the Islamophobia expressed by a Frenchman at 3:40 of the trailer. The man says that French women are sleeping with Muslims, making their wombs a weapon for Arabs. Ophuls sighs afterward: “Racist, fascist, the worst there is, he rattled racist bullshit for 5 minutes.”

Mackey gets it right: “The question the filmmakers want to explore, Mr. Sivan added, is whether ‘Islamophobia is the new anti-Semitism.’”…

Then the director interviews an Israeli rabbi who states that one out of three Muslims is a murderer.

Former speaker of the Knesset Avraham Burg tells Ophuls that the idea of partition is over. “We have to move into shared society, shared territory, shared sovereignty, shared resources.” Call it post-Zionism or anti-Zionism; but notice that it’s Jews who get to say this stuff.

The most beautiful interview in the film is at 10:40. Look at it. Ophuls asks a lovely Palestinian woman how her son, lately arrested, became a militant. She explains that during the first intifada the Israelis demolished their home, and at 10 the boy couldn’t go to school.

“If he had studied and lived in dignity everything would be different…. He saw his brother killed. What else could he have done?”

Unbelievable. When you watch that interview, you understand that what an exercise in ethnic supremacy it is to talk to Israeli Jews and American Jews about this problem when there are articulate Palestinians who have deep experience of Zionism. Ophuls suffers from it. The New Yorker suffers from it. We have to break out of this structural racism.

“So another of your sons was killed?” Ophuls asks.

“Yes. His brother is a martyr.”

“Thank you,” Ophuls says, smiling in evident sympathy.

So terrorism is explained, on the New York Times site. Ophuls’s last statement, apropos of Gaza, that the “suffering is on the other side” is a beautiful moral conclusion.

Fuel the MomentumMore on the Jewish supremacy question. Last summer the Rev. Bruce Shipman lost his chaplain job at Yale because of his three-sentence letter to the New York Times suggesting that the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe can be laid partly at the feet of Israel’s oppression of Palestinians. The idea that Israel is somehow to blame for Jewish hatred — anathema! The Yale president leapt into action on the case. Shipman stumbled up the turnpike to Groton, and was forced to publicly examine his heart over and over for a scintilla of bigotry.

But in the Times today Ophuls and Sivan ask the same question.

[Last summer Ophuls] called Mr. Sivan, suggesting that together they direct a documentary looking at both the war in Gaza and the recent rise in anti-Semitism in Europe. A central focus of the film, Mr. Sivan said in a telephone interview, is to ask if the two situations are linked. To put it bluntly, Mr. Sivan said, the two directors hoped to answer the question: “Is Israel provoking anti-Semitism?” Mackey writes, “Mr. Sivan said, the two directors hoped to answer the question: ‘Is Israel provoking anti-Semitism?’

Their careers will not be damaged by that exploration, though, because they are Jewish. That is unfair.

philweiss
About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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59 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    December 11, 2014, 1:02 pm

    ” what an exercise in ethnic supremacy it is to talk to Israeli Jews and American Jews about this problem when there are articulate Palestinians who have deep experience of Zionism. ”

    Well, the American and Israeli Jews are uniquely qualified to discuss Zionism considered as an (unacknowledged) dream, a pie-in-the-sky, and make all the usual propaganda, whereas Palestinians are uniquely (except perhaps for Lebanese) qualified to speak of Zionism-in-practice from the perspective of its victims.

    Both are supremely qualified!

    • annie
      annie
      December 11, 2014, 1:18 pm

      yeah, but as phil says “Their careers will not be damaged by that exploration, though, because they are Jewish. That is unfair.”

      • Stephen Shenfield
        Stephen Shenfield
        December 12, 2014, 4:50 am

        No, what is unfair is that the careers of other critics will be damaged because they are not Jewish. What is fair is that no one should be persecuted for their opinions, not that everyone should be persecuted without discrimination.

      • piotr
        piotr
        December 13, 2014, 9:27 pm

        Having to raise 60 thousand euros through crowd-funding is not a sign of a flourishing career but of non-conformism that has to find shelter away from money interests. (A bit like comparing finances of “major Jewish organizations” with J-Street (still, few millions raised from some rich donors) and then Mondoweiss .) Yet, it is indeed a sign of times that The Times sees it as news fit to print. If weathervanes are of any use, they can at least show where the wind is blowing.

      • NoMoreIsrael
        NoMoreIsrael
        December 14, 2014, 11:48 am

        Finkelstein’s career wasn’t damaged?

  2. annie
    annie
    December 11, 2014, 1:22 pm

    Then he interviews Michel Warschawski saying that the Israel lobby in France is “importing” a religious conflict from Israel to France

    ok, now i really have to go listen. i was in conversation w/mcohen the other day. he said something about “it’s all good”or something wrt all the french jews moving to israel because of anti semitism. there are ways to make that happen of course. it’s been done intentionally in the past (baghdad). anti semitism is milked to kingdom kome, if it wasn’t there maybe they would have to invent it. sad.

  3. hophmi
    hophmi
    December 11, 2014, 1:29 pm

    “what an exercise in ethnic supremacy it is to talk to Israeli Jews and American Jews about this problem when there are articulate Palestinians who have deep experience of Zionism. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/12/bullshit-exposes-islamophobia#sthash.eF0TR7vc.dpuf

    And what a exercise it is in privilege and supremacy for a coterie of Western leftists to opine on Israeli policy when the people living in that country have a deep experience in the region, and a deep experience of Palestinian nationalism and Palestinian terrorism.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      December 11, 2014, 1:56 pm

      Don’t be so modest. Israelis also have a deep experience with Jewish terrorism, delivering oppression, murder and theft.

      Very well rounded.

      • eljay
        eljay
        December 11, 2014, 2:04 pm

        >> hophmeee @ December 11, 2014, 1:29 pm

        Zio-supremacists like hophmeee never fail to speak up:
        – against justice, accountability and equality; and
        – in favour of Jewish supremacism and all its trappings.

        It is truly depressing that humanity is still afflicted with people who actually consider justice, accountability and equality to be bad things, and their preferred brand of supremacism – and all the acts of injustice and immorality that accompany it – to be a good thing.

    • Peter in SF
      Peter in SF
      December 11, 2014, 2:25 pm

      Since you’re extending this sorting of people into categories, hophmi, and you post on this site to opine on Israeli policy, in which category do you fit? Israeli Jew? American Jew? Palestinian? Western leftist? Person living in Israel?

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      December 11, 2014, 3:33 pm

      hopmi the people living in that country have a deep experience … of Palestinian nationalism and Palestinian terrorism.

      Those “the people”, that’s jews only of course.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      December 11, 2014, 5:36 pm

      ” people living in that country have a deep experience in the region,”

      Experience living as Zionists and colonists. That don’t give them a whole lot of standing.

      • gamal
        gamal
        December 11, 2014, 7:25 pm

        heretic!

        conversion to Islam is simple but we are fucked, perhaps super fucked, if that is possible, have you seen the Last Samurai, your wife wont let you join us, no one exceeds Muslim in the self destruction stakes.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        December 11, 2014, 8:00 pm

        You’re an American colonist. Does your experience matter?

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        December 11, 2014, 8:16 pm

        I am not sure Muslims are world champions in self destruction. It seems to be a generalized human failing.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        December 12, 2014, 2:16 pm

        “You’re an American colonist. Does your experience matter?”

        No, I’m the great-grand-offspring of illegal immigrants.
        But I get it, Hophmi, the American Colonists decimated the Native Americans, so of course, the Zionists get to, 200 years later, decimate the Palestinians. You’re just as good as any Gentile Colonialist.

      • lysias
        lysias
        December 12, 2014, 2:25 pm

        And I’m the son of Irish parents who immigrated to this country in the 1920’s, largely because the conditions created by English colonialism in Ireland forced Irish people to emigrate.

      • talknic
        talknic
        December 13, 2014, 6:52 pm

        @ hophmi “You’re an American colonist”

        Say ….. that’d make these folk American colonists too http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.631553

        Could deport ’em & give all their US property to the Indians. What do you think?

    • talknic
      talknic
      December 12, 2014, 1:05 am

      @ hophmi “And what a exercise it is in privilege and supremacy for a coterie of Western leftists to opine on Israeli policy…”

      hophmi & co prefer policies that put Israel in breach of laws, a UN Charter and conventions adopted in large part because of what happened to our Jewish fellows under the f&*(ing Nazis!

      • amigo
        amigo
        December 12, 2014, 6:20 am

        “You’re an American colonist. Does your experience matter?”hoppy

        So are all those bought and paid for congress critters and senators.Their support does not seem to bother you.And the 3 billion dollars Israel get,s handed to it annually , no pre conditions is paid for by Colonists.Better cancel that immediately to avoid any bouts of morality you might be experiencing.

        Hypocrite, your experience does not matter one tiny bit.

      • eljay
        eljay
        December 12, 2014, 8:27 am

        >> hophmeee: You’re an American colonist. Does your experience matter?

        Wow, I must’ve missed the part where Israel and all the territory it occupies are now – like America – a single, secular and democratic state:
        – with full and equal rights for all of its citizens; and
        – within which its citizens can freely move and reside.

  4. snowdrift
    snowdrift
    December 11, 2014, 4:14 pm

    The Ophuls documentary looks amazing!

    Two very telling moments of the trailer are the two segments with the French-Israeli Jews: both of them compare Israel to French Algeria, the other Western settler-colonial project in the Arab world. And the rabbi outs himself as an admirer of Salan and the OAS, the French colonial terrorist group that killed Algerian civilians and French officials alike in the waning months of the war.

    They share the stereotypical mentality of the pieds-noirs, the French ex-colonials that returned to France after the Algerian War: “the Arabs booted us out of Algeria, and now they’re coming for us here, too. Never!” That’s why the pieds-noirs are one of the electoral bases of the FN (the far-right party) in France. And I live in area where there’s a ton of them, woe is me

    This mentality also exacerbates the Zionism of much of the French Jewish community today: since the end of the war, the majority of French Jews are Sephardic Jews–Jews from North Africa. They were actually natives of Algeria, like Algerian Muslims, but were assimilated into the colonial population, starting with the Crémieux Decree of 1870 that granted them French citizenship. The tragic irony being that, while this turned them into colonial foreigners in the eyes of the Muslim population, the local Europeans were for their part very opposed to the process (which was being pushed by the métropole) and were probably the most antisemitic demographic in France, filling the ranks of the French fascist parties in the 1930s, and later massively supporting the Vichy regime (further proving that colonialism produces the worst societies and the worst people, outside of maybe slavery-based societies).

    So these French-Israelis come from a community that already saw Arabs as hostile, and yet also faced antisemitism from the European colonials. And they took their issues with them to Israel, and now the Palestinians, who already serve as Nazi stand-ins for the Ashkenazim, can also play the part of FLN fighter for the Sephardim (the latter being much more accurate, since the Palestinians’ struggle, like the Algerians’, is an anticolonial one). This makes the Sephardic Jews in Israel two-time colonials, which explains the hardcore racism of the two in the trailer.

    PS: this also explains why the French President, François Hollande, pandered to the CRIF (the umbrella group of organized French Jewry) during a speech he gave at their yearly dinner by cracking a joke at Algeria’s expense, declaring that the French Minister of the Interior (now PM, and a pro-Israeli, Islamophobic dogwhistling a**hole to boot) had returned “safe and sound” from Algeria, and that that was “already a lot” (“c’est déjà beaucoup”). His audience loved it.

    • just
      just
      December 11, 2014, 5:08 pm

      wow, snowdrift~ what an informative comment!

      thank- you.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        December 13, 2014, 6:22 pm

        yes thanks

    • Boomer
      Boomer
      December 11, 2014, 6:05 pm

      I echo just’s thanks for this informative comment.

      • gamal
        gamal
        December 11, 2014, 7:27 pm

        yeah its the wonder of ‘Europe” and all the joy it brings us.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        December 11, 2014, 8:20 pm

        I was thinking about the wonder of Europe on Sunday, Gamal. The racism displayed towards Muslims now and how welcoming Europe was 3 generations ago to Jews fleeing persecution.
        Beyond the gluhwein there are other things that never change.

  5. just
    just
    December 11, 2014, 4:20 pm

    I’m thoroughly stunned!

    The trailer leaves me hungry for more. Three cheers for Mr. Ophuls and Mr. Sivan! This film could be a serious turning point for millions.

    Huge props to Robert Mackey. Many thanks, Phil. You are completely correct when you write:

    “When you watch that interview, you understand that what an exercise in ethnic supremacy it is to talk to Israeli Jews and American Jews about this problem when there are articulate Palestinians who have deep experience of Zionism. Ophuls suffers from it. The New Yorker suffers from it. We have to break out of this structural racism.”

  6. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson
    December 11, 2014, 7:30 pm

    RE: Then he interviews Michel Warschawski saying that the Israel lobby in France is “importing” a religious conflict from Israel to France (what Scott McConnell said about the special relationship as the “transmission belt” of bad ideas to the U.S.) ~ Weiss

    A COUPLE OF TWEETS FROM ELI CLIFTON:

    ● “The draft memo cited the ‘Israeli example’ as possible basis for arguing that ‘torture was necessary…” ~ https://twitter.com/EliClifton/status/542374936787292160

    ● “CIA atty also described Israeli precedent w regard to the ‘necessity defense’ that has been invoked by CIA and DOJ” ~ https://twitter.com/EliClifton/status/542375758254313472

    SOURCE – http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/cia-charm-school/

  7. Brewer
    Brewer
    December 11, 2014, 11:37 pm

    “The film will also explore the “very strange linkage between the far right in Europe and Israel,” Mr. Sivan said. “The traditional anti-Semitic right,” he noted, “is becoming very pro-Israeli.” ”

    I too have noticed this trend in my country. A meeting of ideologies.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      December 11, 2014, 11:58 pm

      It is indeed a meeting of ideologies. They are partners in crime. zionism is no different than white supremacy. Only the group to benefit differs.

      If there can be a Jewish state then why not an Aryan state? Why not a white state? Or a black state? The goals and means of ISIS are no different than those of zionists other than they lack the technological means to be as efficient. In what way is a caliphate different than Eretz Israel. Their means are no different. ISIS uses modern weapons as well as a knife to attain it’s objective. Israel uses 1 tonne bombs to wipe out dozens of innocents. I’d rather ISIS be my neighbour to be honest. There is a better chance of survival.

      Israel is somewhat of a success story given that they have managed to violate even the most basic human rights for over half a century. That is exactly what their fellow travellers wish to accomplish.

    • Teapot
      Teapot
      December 12, 2014, 5:29 am

      I’ve noticed it too. And people are still so used to antisemitism being a key ingredient of neo-nazism, that many can’t recognize this new generation of neo-nazis.

    • lysias
      lysias
      December 12, 2014, 2:20 pm

      The far-right Sweden Democrats, which started out as neo-Nazi and is very much against Muslim immigrants, came in third place in Sweden’s recent elections (with something a little short of20% of the vote), and recently joined a mjaority vote against the new left-wing government’s budget, so that new elections have had to be called for in Sweden. Disappointing that that left-wing government refused to step in to stop the legal action against Assange, as it may soon be out of power.

      Some of the leaders of the Sweden Democrats are Jewish.

      • annie
        annie
        December 12, 2014, 2:35 pm

        that’s a drag lysias.

  8. lysias
    lysias
    December 12, 2014, 10:17 am

    I’ve seen two documentaries by Ophuls, The Sorry and the Pity about Vichy France and its treatment of the Jews, and Hotel Terminus, about Klaus Barbie. They are both great movies, very objective, unlike the anti-Polish diatribe Shoah. I have been unable to see his other documentary on Vietnam and the Nuremberg Trials, The Memory of Justice. It seems never to be shown, at least here in the U.S., and, the last time I checked, it was not available on DVD.

    • just
      just
      December 12, 2014, 1:01 pm

      thanks for the info, lysias.

      “Suspects in hate crime at bilingual school have troubling history of violence

      Three young Jewish men who admitted arson at Jerusalem school were part of extreme right-wing organization, had been previously charged with assaulting police officers and spitting on nuns and priests.

      An arrest following rioting in Jerusalem after a vehicular terror attack in the capital; an arrest after an assault on a police officer at a protest after the Har Nof synagogue massacre; spitting on a nun – just some of the violent crimes attributed to the three young suspects in the hate crime at a Jewish-Arab bilingual school in Jerusalem last month.

      The three young men – Yitzhak Gabai, 22, and brothers 20-year-old Shlomo and 18-year-old Nahman Twito – were arrested by Jerusalem district police last week and on Thursday arrived in court with smiles plastered across their faces. Their remand was extended for another five days.

      The young men are members of the Lehava organization – a far right-wing group whose prime objective is to oppose assimilation of Jews, especially marriages between Jews and non-Jews.

      Gabai had also been arrested in May on suspicion of incitement to racism and corruption of land after he put up signs denouncing Christianity during the Pope Francis’ visit to Israel.

      The signs read, “The cursed Christian religion is a partner in the murder of millions of Jews and various deaths… they dream of annihilating the Jewish nation. Impure pope, leave our holy nation.”

      Last February, Gabai was arrested and was indicted for possession of a brass knuckle.

      “He is a good boy, his upbringing is perfectly fine,” said Gabai’s father, who confirmed that his son is a member of the Lehava organization.

      “I’m sure he did not do it,” said his father, who simultaneously showed support for the extreme right-wing organization.

      The mother of the Twito brothers said Monday that she would have set the school ablaze as well were it not for the law, and that Jews and Arabs should not be studying in mixed classes.

      While she shook off accusations of harassment of Arabs, the suspect’s mother expressed revulsion at the fact that Jews and Arabs were studying together in the same school.

      “It’s disgusting that Jews and Arabs learn side by side,” she told Ynet. “If we didn’t have a country governed by law, I would have done the same,” she said.”

      more @ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4602669,00.html

      The grinning terrorist ghouls can be seen at link…

    • W.Jones
      W.Jones
      December 12, 2014, 1:09 pm

      What about his movie on the Nuremberg Trials is not to be shown in the US? Why?

      • lysias
        lysias
        December 12, 2014, 3:27 pm

        I suppose there might be some kind of copyright dispute, but I suspect Ophuls’s pointing out how the U.S. violated the principles of the Nuremberg Trials in Vietnam is the problem. Most annoying, in any case.

  9. subconscious
    subconscious
    December 12, 2014, 12:41 pm

    Although, given his family background as victims of the Nazis and his criticism of Israel, he is credentialed for the honor, Ophuls did not make Dennis Prager’s latest “Jews-devoted-to-hurting-Jews” list:
    http://www.jewishjournal.com/dennis_prager/article/jews_devoted_to_hurting_jews
    In that piece, the radio talk show host specifically attacks Shlaim, Pappé, Finkelstein and the 90-year old Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein and concludes with,
    “These are only four of the many Jews who devote their lives to helping those who wish to destroy Israel. What makes these useful idiots of the Jew-haters tick? Well, these four all have something in common — they or their parents have suffered at the hands of Jew-haters — in three instances the Nazis, in the fourth Muslim Jew-haters (in Iraq, which Shlaim’s family fled when he was 5 years old). I am convinced that many Jews who hate Israel subconsciously believe that if they side with the Jew-haters, they will be spared if the Jew-haters win. Or, if you will, it is a form of the Stockholm syndrome. Finally, they believe they will show the world that whereas almost no Germans spoke up against the Nazis during the Holocaust, they will speak up against the Jews in the Palestinians’ “genocide.” They are, in a word, sick.”
    Though he has previously held academic positions, Prager, who recently teamed up with Rabbi Boteach to debate whether “Hamas is a greater obstacle to peace than Israel,” at the Oxford Union, does not provide any arguments as to why the views of his designated Gang of Four should be viewed as “sick.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Prager

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      December 12, 2014, 1:37 pm

      Well, it’s hard to escape the fact that at least three of four tend to come from a radical political tradition with a bad record on antisemitism. Shlaim I’m not sure. Finkelstein and Epstein are basically red diaper babies, and Pappe is basically the same thing. Pro-Soviet radicals used to insist that there was no antisemitism in the Soviet Union, and they continued to insist on that point into the 1980’s in books like Antisemitism and Anti-Zionism, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. When your vision of Judaism is synonymous with your vision of secular collectivism, and amounts to a negation of Judaism, it’s a small step to antisemitic bigotry.

      Critiques of Israel by Jewish radicals have long strayed into bald anti-Jewish critiques that would be labeled as antisemitism if anyone else made them. Israel Shahak’s writing on Judaism is like that. Gilad Atzmon’s writing is just a more extreme version of this tendency, and it’s clear that several here agree with Atzmon’s reviled views.

      This site has strayed into that territory by publishing jeremiads against circumcision, calling it barbaric, and has published other critiques of Jewish life, calling for an end to Jewish day school education on grounds that it is “segregationist,” but never publishing any call to dismantle any other religious educational institution that I know of. This site doesn’t ask for assimilation to be respected. It strongly supports assimilation, and its concurrent effect of reducing the vibrancy of Jewish identity. I will never forget attending the book launch of Alexander Cockburn’s “The Politics of Anti-Semitism.” Lenni Brenner spoke and said that people should not worry about Jewish influence, because the American Jewish community was assimilating at a rapid rate, and in the future, there would be far less American Jews. The audience applauded, loudly. Less Jews sounded like a great thing to them.

      If there’s an intellectual distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism, it is obscured by the reality that antisemitism is rampant within the anti-Zionist movement.

      • annie
        annie
        December 12, 2014, 2:54 pm

        antisemitism is rampant within the anti-Zionist movement.

        and your preface to this was the claim “three of four tend to come from a radical political tradition…radicals used to insist that there was no antisemitism in the Soviet Union” with the implication three of four insist there was no antisemitism without once offering even one example of any of these people claiming there was no antisemitism. then you throw in Atzmon for effect (knowing very well max has accused him of anti semitism) and the whole post becomes one guilt by association garbledigook absent one iota of actual direct context to any of these people. it reminds me of the point scoring section in the hasbara handbook.

        massive #FAIL

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        December 12, 2014, 3:04 pm

        “with the implication three of four insist there was no antisemitism without once offering even one example of any of these people claiming there was no antisemitism.”

        You really have to stop reading into what people say instead of reading what they actually say. You do this all the time. I said nothing remotely like this. My response was to the argument that these Jews involved in the BDS movement were not self-hating, not that they deny antisemitism today.

        “then you throw in Atzmon for effect (knowing very well max has accused him of anti semitism) ”

        Ah, Max accused him of antisemitism. That makes it all better.

        Actually, I didn’t throw Atzmon in for effect. I’ve read some of Atzmon’s writing and have listened to him interviewed. Atzmon main argument is to blame Judaism for the ills of the world, and certainly for the ills of the Middle East. It’s not that far off from Israel Shahak’s writing, and Israel Shahak’s stuff used to appear here all the time. And as much as it’s great that Max Blumenthal had the moral backbone to condemn a guy who is a crystal clear antisemite, no question about it, a lot of people here can’t seem to do it. Last I checked, Max speaks for Max, not for BDS.

        So Annie, you’re the one who’s the massive FAIL here. As usual, you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge the problems in the Stalinville that is the BDS Movement, because you apparently think that acknowledging antisemitism within your movement delegitimizes it. It’s sad, but not surprising.

      • annie
        annie
        December 12, 2014, 4:08 pm

        You really have to stop reading into what people say instead of reading what they actually say.

        what conversation do you think are we in hops. you responded to subconscious’s comment about attacks on Shlaim, Pappé, Finkelstein, Hedy Epstein. then you went on to buttress the rationale, with an explanation of that attack, did you not? and in your comment you said

        it’s hard to escape the fact that at least three of four tend to come from a radical political tradition with a bad record on antisemitism.

        those are your words. now what prey tell, is the point of saying it is “hard to escape the fact” these people “tend to come from” a tradition of a bad record of anti semitism …”it’s a small step to antisemitic bigotry.”

        these are your words. my point is if you care to accuse them of anti semitism as others have can’t you, at a minimum, cite them? use their words or something they have written?

        I didn’t throw Atzmon in for effect….Atzmon main argument is to blame Judaism for the ills of the world…

        hmm, ok. in a comment responding to accusations against 4 people you say “Critiques of Israel by Jewish radicals have long strayed into bald anti-Jewish critiques that would be labeled as antisemitism if anyone else made them” and then reference 2 different ‘jewish radical’ than the ones up for discussion, to what purpose if not to make an analogous point?

        this is called a false equivalence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

        False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1]

        A common way for this fallacy to be perpetuated is one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result. False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn’t bear because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors. The pattern of the fallacy is often as such: If A is the set of c and d, and B is the set of d and e, then since they both contain d, A and B are equal. d is not required to exist in both sets; only a passing similarity is required to cause this fallacy to be able to be used.

        Last I checked, Max speaks for Max, not for BDS…. you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge the problems in the Stalinville that is the BDS Movement

        so what is your point again? you’re using subconscious’s comments to launch into a diatribe about how anti semitism is “rampant within the anti-Zionist movement” and now you’re defending your false equivalence saying max doesn’t speak for BDS? how did BDS become part of this conversation? is the BDS movement anti semitic too hops? is that your point? where are you going with all this? you’re spinning in circles. is your point there is “Stalinville in the BDS Movement”? you’re losing me completely. would that be similar to a “Stalinville” that is the lobby wrt congress sanctions against iran? is that what you mean? is that how they get 100-0 because it’s stalinville? because 2 can play this game.

        you apparently think that acknowledging antisemitism within your movement delegitimizes it.

        excuse me? this is the first comment of yours i realized we were discussing BDS!!! anti semitism exists hops. i never said it didn’t. but it’s a joke to call it “rampant” anywhere especially in the BDSmovement without one single example tying it to the organization. this is the weirdest form of argument, you’ve really topped yourself here. i guess given enough rope you can lasso any kind of comment about anything into an attack on BDS! lol

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        December 13, 2014, 5:07 pm

        “If there’s an intellectual distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism, it is obscured by the reality that antisemitism is rampant within the anti-Zionist movement.”

        Hophmi, making Jews “uncomfortable”,( which is the worst accusation which can be supported,) about Zionism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism.

        Now, would you like to cite some cases in which the anti-Zionist or BDS movement has actually hurt or threatened Jews?

      • annie
        annie
        December 13, 2014, 6:45 pm

        Now, would you like to cite some cases in which the anti-Zionist or BDS movement has actually hurt or threatened Jews?

        good luck w/that! he kind of slunk outta here when i called him on that yesterday. not one example. just spinning in some kind of circular hasbara whirlwind.

      • Keith
        Keith
        December 13, 2014, 6:22 pm

        HOPHMI- “…the American Jewish community was assimilating at a rapid rate, and in the future, there would be far less American Jews. The audience applauded, loudly. Less Jews sounded like a great thing to them.”

        I fail to see why an assimilated Jew would not remain Jewish unless Jewish tribal chauvinism is inherent in your definition of Jewishness. Do you consider yourself assimilated? For what it is worth, I consider you one of the most chauvinistic commenters on Mondoweiss. You are so extreme that you equate any and all criticism of Jews, Jewishness, Judaism and Israel as anti-Semitic. You are a power seeker defending the power and privilege that Jewish “kinship” facilitates. Charges of anti-Semitism the main weapon in your limited intellectual arsenal. Your libelous attacks of no concern to you.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        December 13, 2014, 6:40 pm

        Considering your history here, Keith, one would think you’d be careful about tossing out accusations.

        I was quoting Lenni Brenner, who talked about Judaism disappearing in America. Do you have a response to that? Or are you going to hit me with more straw men accusations?

      • Keith
        Keith
        December 14, 2014, 1:04 am

        HOPHMI- “Considering your history here, Keith, one would think you’d be careful about tossing out accusations.”

        Interesting comment. Care to elaborate about my history here?

        Hophmi: “I was quoting Lenni Brenner….”

        Without quotation marks?

        Hophmi: “…who talked about Judaism disappearing in America.”

        Honesty is not your forte. You didn’t complain about JUDAISM disappearing, did you? What you said was “…in the future, there would be far less American Jews.” Sounds to me like you are dishonestly comparing the decline in the Judaic religion with the elimination of “Jews,” however defined. You are implying an underlying desire to “get rid of the Jews,” aren’t you? A pogrom. Eternal, irrational anti-Semitism. You wear your dishonesty on your sleeve. For you, truth is what works, nothing more. Who are your role models? Abe Foxman and Alan Dershowitz? You seem to enjoy carrying the Ashkenazi man’s burden.

        Straw man? No, partner, spot on.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        December 14, 2014, 12:28 pm

        “Considering your history here, Keith, one would think you’d be careful about tossing out accusations.”

        I am going to buy a new computer. First it won’t C&P, and now it doesn’t show me the links which contain the evidence to back up Hophmi cheap insinuations.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        December 14, 2014, 12:35 pm

        “When your vision of Judaism is synonymous with your vision of secular collectivism, and amounts to a negation of Judaism, it’s a small step to antisemitic bigotry.”

        Hophmi, stay on the subject.!
        We are not talking about all the poor Russian schlumpfs inveigled into becoming Israelis. We’ll save that problem for another thread! But I’m glad you see the problem.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      December 12, 2014, 5:57 pm

      “I am convinced that many Jews who hate Israel … They are, in a word, sick.”

      Standard issue cod psychology. When you have no good arguments against the position, cook up some “explanation” for why those who hold the position are loonies of some sort. It’s a version of argumentum ad hominem.

      • just
        just
        December 13, 2014, 5:04 pm

        bingo!

      • December 14, 2014, 10:31 am

        Quoting hophmi is now a straw man accusation?

        You can’t make this sh*t up

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      December 13, 2014, 4:58 pm

      “When your vision of Judaism is synonymous with your vision of secular collectivism, and amounts to a negation of Judaism, it’s a small step to antisemitic bigotry.”

      Ah, but when your vision of Judaism is as a conquering religion, with its member a superior breed, and an oligarchal, psuedo-theocratic state, which can’t stay inside its own borders, then, of course, you are glorifying Judaism!

      • just
        just
        December 13, 2014, 5:05 pm

        Yessirree.

        A slippery slope, indeed.

  10. just
    just
    December 12, 2014, 2:34 pm

    “LISBON (AFP) — The Portuguese parliament adopted Friday a recommendation calling on the government to recognize the Palestinian state, drawing votes from the majority and opposition.

    The motion, filed jointly by the ruling center-right majority and the opposition Socialist party, proposes “recognizing, in coordination with the European Union, the state of Palestine as independent and sovereign.”

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=746765

    Palestine’s Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki said in a statement in response to the motion saying Palestinian diplomacy had achieved another victory.”

  11. ivri
    ivri
    December 12, 2014, 5:32 pm

    Islamophobia developing in Israel? Now, what would you expect after almost a century of a nasty conflict? That`s human nature

    • talknic
      talknic
      December 13, 2014, 8:18 am

      @ ivri “Islamophobia developing in Israel? Now, what would you expect after almost a century of a nasty conflict? “

      The Zionist notion of colonizing Palestine seems to have coincided with the beginnings of the “century of a nasty conflict”

      “That`s human nature”

      Zionist brainwashing isn’t human nature.

  12. John Salisbury
    John Salisbury
    December 12, 2014, 10:52 pm

    Wonder if Woody Allen would appreciate Marcel’s latest offering as much as he appreciated his
    earlier work ?

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