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Israel should pay 1.4 million Palestinians to leave Gaza, Moshe Feiglin says

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Bribing Palestinians with money to leave Palestine is not a novel concept. And yet the idea is as plausible as sauntering down to the local elementary school and offering to purchase the children. Listen to the casualness in the voice of Knesset deputy speaker Moshe Feiglin as he discusses this and other disturbing concepts during this presentation about Gaza last July 14, a few days after last summer’s slaughter in Gaza began. This talk (published in the last month) seems to fly in Israel; many people are normalized to it by now, even though they may not agree with him. Feiglin:

 

There’s no difference between the city of Yafo [Jaffa] and the city of Gaza. Two Eretz Israel cities sitting on the seashore of the Mediterranean. What’s the difference between Gaza and Yafo. Nineteen years, that’s the whole difference. [Acquired 1948 and 1967]… Both biblical cities, with long Jewish history…

We’re not defending ourself, we’re fighting for justice. It’s ours. This is the first thing we should understand. And we should take it over, and we should take it over, capture the whole Gaza Strip – as we did in 1967 and I’m talking about the right goal, the right goal should be victory, nothing less than that. Victory means destroying your enemy, and take over the place.

The enemy is not the tunnels, the enemy is not the rockets, and the target is definitely not to weaken the Hamas. Did Churchill say that the enemy is the Luftwaffe airplanes? Was the target to weaken Hitler [Hebrew words]. If that’s the way World War Two would have been done, there would be no victory at the end of it. God forbid. The Six Days War, it took less than a day to take over the Gaza Strip… You don’t run up to tunnels, you don’t go into the homes, you hit the leadership hard. You understand that you the good guy and they are the bad guy, you represent good, they represent evil. We have a war over here, and the war is not against the Hamas and there’s no innocent people around it. So these are the two rules. First of all, we should look for victory, we should win, we should take over, we should destroy Hamas and take over the whole city and we should do it according to Jewish law and not according to this immoral ideas that putting our soldiers in danger…

[audience applause]

The question is what are we going to do afterwards with 1.8 million Arabs in Gaza? There are three categories. The first category is those who fighting against you, who fought against you, fighting against you – still not accepting your full sovereignty on your land. And if I did not mention that of course it’s part of it, I’m not talking about going back to Gaza as a colonialist as we did in 1967, no. I’m talking about going back to Gaza as the owner of the land, as we did in Yafo [Jaffa] in 1948. Those who fought you in the past or don’t accept your sovereignty today should be destroyed or sent away. That’s the first category, it’s simple.

Eighty percent, around 80%, maybe more of the people who live in  Gaza Strip wants to leave, wants to find a future in a better place, out of this country… Israel can help that process to happen, Israel should invest a lot of money [that’s] today is being invest in rockets, in barbed wires, in guards in every coffee shop and so on, exactly in that target. So in 10-15 years the Arab population in Gaza will be much smaller and the minority that will decide to stay can stay, somehow with the same position as the Arab in East Jerusalem did. Not immediately, not automatically– they’ll have to go through a few tests and so on. A few years should pass and only according to the Israeli interests, on our own time and our own– amount — that we will decide to let them get that position, they will be able to.

Meanwhile, we should look at reality and see that a tremendous miracle is going on today in the land of Israel. All the population in the world – east and west, including the Arab world – is shrinking, getting smaller and smaller. People not having more than two kids today. Most of the countries east and west having less, including the Arab world.  The only community, if I can call it, that is growing today in the whole world, instead of getting smaller, is the Jewish community in Eretz Israel. Not in the diaspora, in Eretz Israel.  By the way, every year in Judea and Samaria 15,000 Arabs leave anyhow, without any help.

[audience applause]

There was a time not long ago when Feiglin was considered completely outside the mainstream, but those days appear to be over. These ideas have wormed their way into very common national discourse. I watched this 2013 interview on America’s Jewish television network, Shalom TV, with Moshe Feiglin the other day after reading Lieberman unveils racist peace plan: Pay Palestinians to leave Israel. Recorded at Feiglin’s home on the illegal Jewish-only colony of Karnei Shomron, deep in the heart of occupied Palestine, he got the host Mark Golub eating out of the palm of his hand. “One of the most wonderful voices” in Israel — and “what a gorgeous setting,” Golub says. Every square inch of historical Palestine belongs to the Jewish people “because God gave it to us,” Feiglin says. And only by saying that can we solve the problem and achieve peace…

At 25 minutes in the video Feiglin unveils his plan to pay Palestinians to leave Palestine.

Feiglin’s religious nationalist movement “Manhigut Yehudit“, meaning “Jewish Leadership” is the largest faction within the Likud Central Committee, which decides Likud Party policy.

Thanks to Ronnie Barkan.Fuel the Momentum

annie
About Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

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192 Responses

  1. talknic
    talknic on December 26, 2014, 12:17 pm

    The poor guy. He’s quite insane

    • just
      just on December 26, 2014, 12:24 pm

      As are his followers…

      Therein lies the problem. When I read that 95% of Israelis supported the massacre in Gaza, when I saw that they were gathered and celebrating as the bombs blasted people to pieces, when I see that they don’t care about the miserable conditions that the survivors are left with…then I knew , without any doubt, that Israel has a rot.

      Thanks, Annie.

    • CloakAndDagger
      CloakAndDagger on December 26, 2014, 12:58 pm

      @ talknic

      He may be insane, but a lot of Israelis feel as he does, as do a number of hasbara posters on MW if recent memory serves.

      He says that 80% of the people in Gaza want to leave. If I was treated as the Gazans are, I would want to leave my beautiful home in California as well! So, that’s not much of an argument.

      How much would it cost to pay the Israelis to leave? Probably less than the estimated $1 Trillion we have given them since 1948, and the $1.5 Trillion we have spent on the Iraq and Afghan wars.

      • annie
        annie on December 26, 2014, 1:20 pm

        i agree C&D, and i just added a link to the new lieberman legislation phil wrote about recently, same thing! pay palestinians to leave. these guys are sick and this kind of discourse has gone mainstream in israel. what used to be considered the ravings of a lunatic has now merged into israel’s mainstream election campaign politics.

      • piotr
        piotr on December 26, 2014, 11:31 pm

        I agree that this is probably not an individual insanity (not that he looks like a paragon of health). One should know at least the synopsis of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds to understand.

      • seafoid
        seafoid on December 30, 2014, 3:32 pm

        Gazans leaving is a Zionist fantasy like all their wars, as if there is a solution that leaves the land goy free and they can forget about what they did in 1948.

        Dorian Israel has a real problem with 1948.

      • CloakAndDagger
        CloakAndDagger on December 31, 2014, 6:19 pm

        I am curious as to how much the Israelis think each deported Palestinian will cost? What is the price of their land, heritage, history, and the bones of their dead ancestors?

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba on December 26, 2014, 1:58 pm

      He really looks scary… there is a deadly look about him
      Off topic, Shmuel is so sorely missed.!!.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 26, 2014, 2:48 pm

        His face…it’s the light to the world? Some light. In contrast, Hitler’s looks…until his final days in the bunker. This is some holiday message.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 26, 2014, 4:00 pm

        Citizen- I know that the laissez faire here at MW allows crap like this. Tell us about Hitler’s looks, please.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 26, 2014, 5:07 pm

        “Tell us about Hitler’s looks, please.”

        Everybody, be careful! Yonah gets very upset if anybody criticizes Hitler. “Hanging out the washing on the Siegfried line?” Them’s fightin’ words!

        Yonah sez: Leave Hitler alooooooone! He’s not “lascivious” he’s “merely bloodthirsty”!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 26, 2014, 5:36 pm

        “I know that the laissez faire here at MW “

        Mondo is replete with smiling, twinkling-toed colleens.

    • ziusudra
      ziusudra on December 27, 2014, 4:27 am

      Greetings,
      …. Historical Gaza……
      was full of Canaanites, later Philistines, later all Semite peoples.
      I love it when zios rubberbandize, in Diklum ( state & repeat a falsity), the size of Israel in antiguity which was ne’er more than a Kingdom of 7.3K Sq Km in the north that disappeared in 722BC.
      ….Feiglin…
      is a German name, a diminuative of Coward.
      ziusudra
      PS Feiglin, the 90lb coward doesn’t weigh more than Machiavelli did!

    • seafoid
      seafoid on December 30, 2014, 12:42 pm

      Imagine Israel paying for something! The guy is nuts.

  2. Blownaway
    Blownaway on December 26, 2014, 2:13 pm

    The best thing that can happen is for these crazy right wing nuts to get into direct power in Israel. ( they are in power indirectly now) sane people all over the world will start to see whatThe Jewish State in the Kevant (JSIL) is really like. no different than ISIS

    • Bornajoo
      Bornajoo on December 27, 2014, 5:45 am

      Totally agree Blownaway
      He’s nasty, evil, racist and he thinks he’s being reasonable
      But at least he’s totally and brutally honest. He has the guts to come out and say what so many of them actually believe.

      I hope he plays a major role in the next government

  3. amigo
    amigo on December 26, 2014, 2:18 pm

    “This talk (published in the last month) seems to fly in Israel; many people are normalized to it by now, even though they may not agree with him. Feiglin:”

    I a,m sure that given enough time many Israelis would consider a Palestinian Holocaust as a reasonable step to give Israel,s Jews security.This very very sick society is on the verge of joining the ranks of some of the most evil nations ever to exist.

    • Marnie
      Marnie on December 26, 2014, 2:32 pm

      I think that is the direction they are going. Some say (at 972 for example) they choose racism over death. Okay, but when they say death, they don’t mean that Palestinians are going to kill them, no, they mean they will kill themselves. So they see 2 choices, racism or death (suicide). I’ve never seen such drama in my life, it’s quite spectacular the tears, the screeching and frantic “they hate us” as if that is fact and that means all Palestinians hate them. They couldn’t be more unlovable. They act with unbridled cruelty and then demand loyalty and love. It is a society that is insane, and this fucking guy looks like death warmed over.

    • Citizen
      Citizen on December 26, 2014, 2:51 pm

      You mean like Richard Witty did? If memory serves, he said if he had lived in early Nakba days, he’d just have held his nose and let his less queasy tribal members do the dirty deed to those so unfortunate they were not Jewish, yet lived on the land. That from a guy born in US & who has lived a privileged life for many decades here in mostly goy USA.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 26, 2014, 5:12 pm

        Yes, and as Mr. Witty was typing those words, he breathed a sigh of pride and satisfaction, knowing they would be preserved in the Mondo comment archives, forever. They’re still there.

        I wonder if Mr. Witty’s blog “Liberal Zionism” is still extant?

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye on December 26, 2014, 7:07 pm

        Dunno about his blog, but if you really, really miss him, I noticed he hangs around to comment on articles on the MW facebook page. Twas but a brief look, but he seemed to get a similar sort of response to that he got here – so I suppose he feels right at home!

      • Marnie
        Marnie on December 27, 2014, 7:19 am

        There are actually a few others (but I have the feeling it is one person with multiple names as they sound similar, oh well, great minds think alike?) that mention suicide quite often as in “what do you want us to do, kill ourselves” or “we should all slit our wrists?”, very sane, nonchalent, conversationalists. I imagine them all with the same grimace as caroline glick, who should get an oscar or at least honorable mention at Sundance for her short subject on the aesthetics of grinding one’s teeth and aerobics when confined to a chair while on a stage attempting to cut the legs out from under a foreign guest invited to share said stage by her employer.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 27, 2014, 8:04 am

        >> Citizen: You mean like Richard Witty did? If memory serves, he said if he had lived in early Nakba days, he’d just have held his nose and let his less queasy tribal members do the dirty deed …

        And then he would have “primarily celebrated”. Can’t forget the celebration.

        “I cannot consistently say that ‘ethnic cleansing is never necessary’.”

        ” … I feel that the nakba was a necessary wrong … ”

        “If I was an adult in 1948, I probably would have supported whatever it took to create the state of Israel, and held my nose at actions that I could not possibly do myself.”

        “The nakba that occurred in 1948 was accompanied by the independence, the liberation, of the Jewish community. So, I primarily celebrate … “

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 27, 2014, 10:51 am

        “Dunno about his blog, but if you really, really miss him, I noticed he hangs around to comment on articles on the MW facebook page.”

        Miss him? I positively pine to take him to my balsam once again. I’m just an old sap, I guess.

  4. Atlantaiconoclast
    Atlantaiconoclast on December 26, 2014, 2:38 pm

    Who could blame a Gazan or Palestinian in the West Bank for taking the money? But I doubt Hamas would allow them to leave. This so called solution reminds me of Carolyn Glick’s plan in her latest book, The One State Solution. However, she just wants to relinquish Gaza forever, thus reducing the demographic threat from a one state solution.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 26, 2014, 5:15 pm

      “Who could blame a Gazan or Palestinian in the West Bank for taking the money?”

      There isn’t going to be any money. There’s a history to these we’ll-pay-you-to-leave ethnic cleansing efforts, and I don’t think a pay-off is part of it.

      • Marnie
        Marnie on December 27, 2014, 7:30 am

        “The (rubber) check is in the mail” or “Get it from your Uncle Sam”.

    • Philemon
      Philemon on December 26, 2014, 8:15 pm

      What Mooser said.

      C’mon. The Israelis stiffed the poor elderly Jewish survivors of WWII living in their midst. They raised a lot of money on them and gave them birdseed.

      You think they’ll pay anything near market price to a poor Palestinian?

      These Israeli tools look on being magnanimous as a weakness. They have the ethics of the conman who blames the mark for being so gullible as to fall for his trick

  5. amigo
    amigo on December 26, 2014, 2:38 pm

    ” By the way, every year in Judea and Samaria 15,000 Arabs leave anyhow, without any help.” Feiglin

    Has to qualify as the most asinine claim of this century and the last one.

    I would love to see this racist bigot in shackles on his way to life in prison with hard labour.Alternatively ., I would not be opposed to dumping him in the Middle of Gaza and allowing Hamas to deal with him.

    • Citizen
      Citizen on December 26, 2014, 2:59 pm

      He probably believes those 750,000 Palestnians also volunteered to leave their land in ’47-’48 “without any help.”

  6. Citizen
    Citizen on December 26, 2014, 3:01 pm

    Not a problem. US government will gladly pay those Palestinians to leave as Israel wants. Dick & Jane won’t complain. After all, most Americans pay no attention to US foreign policy or foreign aid–the latter’s always referenced as “a drop in the bucket.”

  7. amigo
    amigo on December 26, 2014, 3:29 pm

    Feiglin is not alone in this plan to ethnically cleanse Palestians.

    “Between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan Rive there will only be one Jewish and democratic state – the State of Israel,” Yogev added. “The two-state solution is not practicable and is dangerous to the continued existence of the State of Israel.”
    According to these MK’s one state between the Jordan and the sea can only mean one of two things, expulsion of the Palestinians or Palestinians with no vote, they should be asked, which is it? “.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/02/population-israelpalestine-projected

  8. Citizen
    Citizen on December 26, 2014, 3:53 pm

    Feiglin
    Handsome guy! Pithy too. Check out Irish American George Carlin talking about Feiglin’s religious ilk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_tr_k59O6s

    PS: Carlin equally slammed the Catholics, all Christians in fact. Just in case you don’t know. Imagine what he thought of Hagee. For a test run, check out his slam of Rush Limbaugh.

  9. just
    just on December 26, 2014, 3:57 pm

    Yoo- hoo, Moshe:

    “Chief Palestinian negotiater Saeb Erekat says that the new Palestinian-proposed Security Council resolution on Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank will be brought to a vote today or on Monday next week, Israel Radio reported on Friday.

    Earlier this month, Jordan submitted the draft resolution on behalf of the Palestinians, calling for an Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories by 2017. The resolution sets a two-year deadline to reach a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    The draft has been amended, but the final version has yet to be made public, Israel Radio said.

    Haaretz reported earlier this week that the Palestinian delegation to the United Nations had revised the proposal, with a new version defining East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.

    The revision also states that the Palestinians demand full sovereignty over all areas captured after June 4, 1967, do not recognize any demographic and geographic changes made by Israel, and emphasizes that all the settlements violate international law, Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki said.

    In UN diplomatic terms, the Palestinian proposal was “put in blue” last week, which means it is a draft resolution that is approaching its final stage of formulation, whose sponsors seek to put it before a vote soon. Such a draft resolution is printed in blue ink and officially distributed to Security Council members, usually within 24 hours before the vote.

    A top Palestinian official told Haaretz on Monday that efforts are now focused on holding the vote before the end of the month, but that if a majority is not assured, then the vote would be held only early next year, after the changes in the membership of the Security Council for 2015 take effect. These changes, which could well strengthen the Palestinian position, and may guarantee a majority for them, include the entry of Indonesia in place of Australia, Angola in place of Rwanda, and Spain instead of Luxembourg. ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.633951?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    • annie
      annie on December 26, 2014, 4:47 pm

      sweeeet just. as is, it is likely to vetoed by the US but my recollection is if it gets 9 votes it can move on to the general assembly? is that correct. we’ll know soon enough. i hope they didn’t change the draft resolution too much.

      • just
        just on December 26, 2014, 4:53 pm

        iirc, 9 votes are needed to adopt the resolution, and then the US would be forced to submit a veto or not.

        I can see why they would wait until after the changes, though. Getting Spain & Indonesia on board and Australia off the Council would be good…

      • CloakAndDagger
        CloakAndDagger on December 26, 2014, 7:45 pm

        The Uniting for Peace resolution was initiated by the United States,[7] and submitted by the “Joint Seven-Powers”[8] in October 1950, as a means of circumventing further Soviet vetoes during the course of the Korean War (25 June 1950 – 27 July 1953). It was adopted by 52 votes to 5,[9] with 2 abstentions.[10]

        United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) resolution 377 A,[1] the “Uniting for Peace” resolution, states that in any cases where the Security Council, because of a lack of unanimity amongst its five permanent members, fails to act as required to maintain international peace and security, the General Assembly shall consider the matter immediately and may issue any recommendations it deems necessary in order to restore international peace and security. If not in session at the time the General Assembly may meet using the mechanism of the emergency special session.

        The Uniting for Peace resolution—also known as the “Acheson Plan”—was adopted 3 November 1950, after fourteen days of Assembly discussions, by a vote of 52 to 5 (Czechoslovakia, Poland, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic), with 2 abstentions (India and Argentina).[2]

        To be constitutionally valid, the procedure envisaged by the “Uniting for Peace” resolution must be triggered by the Security Council, who can refer a matter to the Assembly by a procedural vote requiring 9 out of 15 positive votes without possibility of veto.

        http://theglobalobservatory.org/2013/09/overcoming-the-un-security-councils-deadlock-syria-and-the-uniting-for-peace-resolution/

      • annie
        annie on December 27, 2014, 1:43 pm

        thank you both.

    • catporn
      catporn on December 27, 2014, 4:56 pm

      Hi just, if what I’ve read is true then both drafts (the original Jordanian one with Arab League backing, and the French sanitized version), will go before the UNSC, but if Chad’s Permanent Representative to the UN Mahamat Zene Cherif is to be believed this won’t happen until the new year.
      Some think this is a big moment, not just for Palestine and Israel, but also for the validity of the UNSC which has failed dismally since 1947/8 to find a solution

      In many ways, the UNSC debates will not be mainly about Israel-Palestine, but about the UN Security Council itself. The Council has always been hobbled by the structural reality that any of its five permanent members can veto a resolution and thus immobilize it from taking action. This is what has happened often in relation to debates on the Israel-Palestine issue, with the United States vetoing countless resolutions that otherwise would have had significant majority international support. That approach has not achieved peace, security, justice, stability or anything else other than perpetual warfare and destruction.

      http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=69444
      As for the drafts, there was already a call by Al-Barghouti to retract and rewrite the original Jordanian bid, some thought it was rushed.
      Lamis Andoni wrote:

      The original draft of the resolution was already problematic to begin with without any amendments. The reason for this is that it demands the recognition of a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders and this ignores the very core of Palestinian rights, most notably the right of return for Palestinian refugees among other historical and legitimate demands.

      As you said, some undisclosed amendment’s have been made, I’m not sure if that happened because of these or similar concerns.

      It’s hard not to imagine the French tapping the hand of the US as they climb into the ring to take their place alongside Israel against Palestine.
      Here’s a brief analysis of some of the key differences in both drafts, one of the most ominous omissions

      The French did not include the Arab clause calling on “all parties to abide by their obligations under international humanitarian law, including the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949.”

      That’s pretty diabolical, leaving out phrases like ‘humanitarian law’ and’ Geneva Convention’. It doesn’t leave me with much hope, but whatever happens at least the Palestinians have moved on from the toxic machinations of the US as fair broker.

      • Walid
        Walid on December 28, 2014, 1:06 am

        Catporn, ROR is an abandoned cause by Palestinian and other Arab leaders; even tbe UN is now hesitant to bring it up.. This was confirmed by the leaked Palestinian Papers, which provoked not much more than the usual bogus threat of resignation by the chief Palestinian negotiator. After a cooling-off period of a few months, the man was back in the saddle and to business as usual, negotiating nothing with ardent Zionists like Indyk or Ross. The Palestinian president has himself admitted to having no further claim to his natal village from which he was evicted so what to expect from the man as to the ROR of others. ROR is dead in the water. In any event, the jailed Barghouti is not much different than what the Palestinians currently have, he’s from the same school.

  10. just
    just on December 26, 2014, 5:12 pm

    Feiglin would probably defend the two:

    “A Delta flight from New York to Israel was delayed earlier this month when ultra-Orthodox passengers refused to sit between women, Israel Radio reported on Friday.

    On December 20, Delta Flight 468 from Kennedy airport was delayed by 30 minutes because two Haredi men refused to sit in their assigned seats between two female passengers.

    The flight crew made an effort to find them another seat, but the two female passengers refused to give up their seats in protest at what they saw as discrimination, Israel Radio reported.

    Eventually, an American pilgrim agreed to swap seats, and the plane took off.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.633959?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Why, yes he would:

    “When the Jerusalem city government voted to permit sex-segregated public buses, Feiglin supported the action: “I see discrimination against women as despicable. But it is unreasonable to force an ultra-Orthodox bus company to institute mixed seating on its buses against the wishes of its customers.”[80] Feiglin also opposes the Israeli army’s decision to allow women into combat units.[81]” (wiki)

    and

    “During his 2013 campaign, Feiglin reiterated his view that women’s role in Israeli society should be based on Jewish Biblical principles. In response to a question about feminism, Feiglin was quoted as saying: “ ‘Tel Aviv has become a city that has erased masculinity and where being a man is considered a sickness’ and added that feminism has destroyed family values, something essential to Judaism. . . . Pressed further, he stated that ‘the man is the family while the woman is the home [literally “house”]’ and that in our current culture we are forgetting ‘what it means to be a man.’ ”[79]” (wiki)

    I think these kooky loons should charter their own flights, or stick with El Al.

    Kudos to the women who refused to move…….

    • RoHa
      RoHa on December 26, 2014, 7:12 pm

      “On December 20, Delta Flight 468 from Kennedy airport was delayed by 30 minutes because two Haredi men refused to sit in their assigned seats between two female passengers.”

      When I check in, I make a request for the type of seat I want (aisle, exit, next to pretty young woman in short skirt) and frequently get at least part of what I want. Can’t these loonies say “please don’t sit us next to women’ when they check in, so as to avoid all this messing around when they board the plane.

      But a lot of the check in staff are women. Perhaps they are not allowed to talk to them.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer on December 30, 2014, 1:19 am

        @roha
        Can’t these loonies say “please don’t sit us next to women’ when they check in, so as to avoid all this messing around when they board the plane.”

        In this day and age should we even be attempting to meet the desires of these type of people. Seriously. On one hand why not at least try but on the other doesn’t that just permit such behaviour to occur. At best we should allow them to operate their own airlines provided they meet all the other normal requirements. Otherwise they should be turfed off the plane, blacklisted from future flights with that airline and wished a happy walk home.

        @marnie

        All of Mahers comedy is based on bigotry, stereotyping and hatred. Sadly I admit I used to watch him but he isn’t capable of real humour. Just peddling stereotypes to a segment of society large enough to pay the bills.

        Look at someone like Robin Williams. An individual whose humour greatly exceeded that which Maher is capable of. Yet he didn’t need to deride or denigrate other people to do so.

        Maher is a racist, bigot and misogynist. Those are his best qualities and it’s downhill from there.

    • Kay24
      Kay24 on December 26, 2014, 10:31 pm

      I read this, and realized that had these been ultra orthodox Muslims, there would have been such a reaction from the Islamaphobes, and even Bill Maher would have some material to work with when he spews anti Muslim comments.

      Every religion has these idiots who live in the stone age, but we are supposed to show disapproval only for the Muslim ones.

      • just
        just on December 27, 2014, 12:54 am

        From the article:

        “In October, the same flight suffered a similar delay after ultra-Orthodox men and women refused to take their seats next to members of the opposite sex. Instead, the Haredi passengers got off the plane. Their baggage then had to be located and removed from the baggage compartment, causing the plane to take off about an hour and a quarter late that time.

        A number of similar incidents were reported in the media earlier this year, bringing the controversial issue into the headlines. In some cases, the men reportedly offered to pay the female passengers to switch their seats.

        In September, a petition on Change.org urged Israel’s El Al to take action on the issue. “Why does El Al Airlines permit female passengers to be bullied, harassed, and intimidated into switching seats which they rightfully paid for and were assigned to by El Al Airlines? One person’s religious rights does not trump another person’s civil rights.“

        Earlier this year, El Al told Haaretz that despite the public outcry over the issue, the airline has no official policy for dealing with it, and has no intention of putting one in place.

        A spokeswoman for the airline said that its “policy in general is to try to accommodate any customer request,” and that it deals with requests on a case-by-case basis.

        Also, in wake of the Change.org petition, New York Conservative rabbi and attorney Iris Richman called on unhappy customers to put pressure on airlines by using a U.S. federal law that prohibits discrimination on flights to and from the United States.

        Richman posted a callout on Facebook quoting “49 U.S. Code § 40127 – Prohibitions on discrimination a) Persons in Air Transportation.” According to this directive, she wrote, “An air carrier or foreign air carrier may not subject a person in air transportation to discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, sex or ancestry.””

        I think that these kooks think it’s everybody else’s problem, not theirs. You’re right, if this were Muslim men demanding segregation from women and displaying such misogyny, it would be all over the MSM in an endless loop.

        (Isn’t it ‘ironic’ that so many hysterical/xenophobic people have cried wolf when they see someone in a headscarf/turban/speaking ‘funny’ and jammed up air travel and discriminating against “Ayrabs”?)

      • Kay24
        Kay24 on December 27, 2014, 2:09 am

        I agree with you just, although we have been told by the anti Arab/Muslim hasbrigade that Islam is sooo backward and Muslims living in the stone age, when one looks at the history of Israel you will find so many ultra orthodox people and stone age thinking too. Mixed marriages are frowned upon, certain Jewish sects throwing eggs at buses for having posters of women, little girls being spat on, and called names, for what they deem is inappropriate clothing, men refusing to sit next to women and special buses for segregation:

        “Mehadrin bus lines (Hebrew: קו מהדרין‎) were a type of bus line in Israel that mostly ran in and/or between major Haredi population centers and in which gender segregation and other rigid religious rules observed by some ultra-Orthodox Jews were applied until 2011. In these sex-segregated buses, female passengers sat in the back of the bus and entered and exited the bus through the back door if possible, while the male passengers sat in the front part of the bus and entered and exited through the front door.[1] Additionally, “modest dress” was often required for women, playing a radio or secular music on the bus was avoided, advertisements were censored.[2] Mehadrin lines were generally cheaper than other lines.[citation needed] In early 2010, there were 56 Mehadrin buses in 28 cities across Israel operated by public transportation companies, although usually not specifically labelled.[3]

        In January 2011, the Israeli High Court of Justice ruled that gender segregation was unlawful and abolished the “mehadrin” public buses. However, the court rule allows the continuation of the gender segregation in public buses on a strictly voluntary basis for a one-year experimental period.[4] Before the ruling, female passengers were frequently harassed and forced to sit at the back of the bus.[5] Haredim requested to operate private bus lines but they were blocked by the transportation ministry.[6]” Wikipedia

        To listen to the US media, one would think ONLY Muslims and not Jews, followed such discriminating rules, and that Jews lived in such an open minded society. False impressions.
        Women are still being treated badly in parts of Israel.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 27, 2014, 2:39 am

        “In these sex-segregated buses, female passengers sat in the back of the bus and entered and exited the bus through the back door if possible, while the male passengers sat in the front part of the bus and entered and exited through the front door.[1] Additionally, “modest dress” was often required for women ”

        Exactly the way it was in Saudi Arabia when I lived there.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 27, 2014, 2:42 am

        “Mixed marriages are frowned upon, certain Jewish sects throwing eggs at buses for having posters of women, little girls being spat on, and called names, for what they deem is inappropriate clothing, men refusing to sit next to women and special buses for segregation”

        On the plus side, they stop women from singing, so they get one thing half right.

      • Walid
        Walid on December 27, 2014, 6:56 am

        “In January 2011, the Israeli High Court of Justice ruled that gender segregation was unlawful and abolished the “mehadrin” public buses.”

        2011 was also the year of the big fuss in Israel because in Mea Sherim, men walked on one side of the street while the women had to walk on the other side. 2011 was also the year of the big spook on Alaska Airlines’ flight from Mexico City to LA when 3 orthodox Jewish businessmen began chanting loudly in a foreign language as the plane took off and refused to stay seated during turbulence as they stood in the aisle going through their overhead luggage to take out “strange” little boxes with wires that they affixed to their foreheads and left arms. The spook finished with 2 of the men got into the lavatories while the third stood guard outside. I think 2011 was also the year EL Al flights out of JFK were delayed each time because orthodox Jews insisted in praying in the aisles of the plane before take off.

        In 2013, there were the riots in Beit Shemesh because the orthodox Jews refused to abide by the anti-seggregationist laws about busses. These people have a headstart at becoming like the ISIS Muslim fanatics.

      • Marnie
        Marnie on December 27, 2014, 7:50 am

        You got that right – Maher will never take Feiglin to task for his misogyny. I think Bill Maher is a chauvinist swine.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer on December 30, 2014, 1:27 am

        @Kay24
        “although we have been told by the anti Arab/Muslim hasbrigade that Islam is sooo backward and Muslims living in the stone age, when one looks at the history of Israel you will find so many ultra orthodox people and stone age thinking too. ”

        There are the equivalent in Christian communities as well. Give rampages by Buddhists over the past year or so and historical atrocities by Hindus I feel relatively safe in saying that all religions have such neanderthals.

        The defining difference is that we are asked to define over a billion Muslims by the actions of a few 10’s of thousands Islamist (something like 003% .) At the same time we are asked to consider the racist, supporters of mass murder (something like 95%) of Israelis as mere outliers.

        There is no redemptiom of Israel in my lifetime for me. They have stolen too much and killed too many. I wish no individual harm but there is no redemption for the society that brought over 50 years of murder, torture and oppression on my fellow human beings.

        I hope they find a way to gain redemptiom and acceptance at some future point in time

      • Kay24
        Kay24 on December 30, 2014, 2:56 am

        Oldgeezer you are right. Indeed every religion has their fair share of bigots and stone-age thinkers, unfortunately, the way the US media keeps portraying the Muslim extremists it seems only they are so backward and violent. It is true, right now ISIL and other extremists group dominate the news because of the violence they keep resorting to on a daily basis, but those idiots do not realizing they are also giving Islamaphobes, who have millions of dollars supporting their cause, the material to keep those hate campaigns going. They do folks like Pamela Geller a big favor by showing the world their brutality. It is very unfortunate.

      • Walid
        Walid on January 3, 2015, 2:52 pm

        “Every religion has these idiots who live in the stone age, but we are supposed to show disapproval only for the Muslim ones.” (Kay Dec. 26th)

        Kay, it looks like we were too hasty in condemning those Jewish kooks; they’re not alone. Now about a week later on a Dubai website:

        “Saudi national airline, Saudia, to ban gender-mixing
        Following complaints from passengers: Airlines

        By Staff

        Published Wednesday, December 31, 2014
        Saudi Arabia’s national carrier Saudia intends to ban gender-mixing aboard all its flights in line with rules enforced by the conservative Gulf kingdom.

        The airlines said it decided to act following recurrent complaints from passengers objecting to have males seated next to their wives and other female family members.

        “There are solutions to this problem…we will soon enforce rules that will satisfy all passengers,” Saudia assistant manager for marketing Abdul Rahman Al Fahd said, quoted by the Saudi Arabic language daily ‘Ajel’.

        He did not elaborate, but the paper said it would include instructions to flight booking staff at the Gulf kingdom’s airports to ensure males and females are separated aboard Saudia’s flights unless they are closely related.”

        http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/saudi-national-airline-saudia-to-ban-gender-mixing-2014-12-31-1.575074

    • RoHa
      RoHa on December 30, 2014, 4:12 am

      Regardless of whether we should or should not accommodate their lunacy, the airlines would if it meant the planes could get off in time. They do their best to get me the sort of seat I want, and I am an ordinary, inoffensive looking, little old man. If a guy with a funny hat, beard, and dreadlocks comes to the check-in desk, they will really try.

      My point is that these weirdos apparently wait until they are on the plane before making a fuss. They don’t even take whole-body condoms with them.

      And this bespeaks a breathtaking arrogance, a total (and disgusting) lack of concern for other people, on their part. Clearly these people believe that the rest of the world should organize itself around them.

      I would be quite happy for the airlines to chuck them off, and I suspect that, if they started doing that, we’d see a sudden change in behaviour.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 30, 2014, 11:14 am

        Why would they behave in USA differently than they behave in Israel? Both countries treat these backward people as if they were rational. At least in USA, most people recognize such people are archaic cults–like the Amish, only much more sociopathic to contemporary society in general–like the kosher processing group out in small town west in USA, remember them? Reminder: http://www.amazon.com/Postville-Clash-Cultures-Heartland-America/dp/B003L1ZYQU

  11. JWalters
    JWalters on December 26, 2014, 8:15 pm

    Truly Orwellian. The only basis for this claim is the belief that God gives Israelies a pass on ordinary morality. This is religious supremacism, no different in nature or effects than racial supremacism. And this archaic, barbaric, segregationist belief is the foundation concept of Israel.
    http://warprofiteerstory.blogspot.com

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer on December 30, 2014, 1:31 am

      “no different in nature or effects than racial supremacism. ”

      Of course it’s not. zionists claim that being Jewish is not about religion. So it’s bigotry and racism, pure and simple by their own definition.

      The fact that they use the same type of memes as aryan supremacists is clue number 1

  12. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride on December 26, 2014, 9:16 pm

    On the Judaism/Zionism issue a few passages leap out:

    1. a tremendous miracle is going on today in the land of Israel
    2. biblical cities
    3. destroying your enemy
    4. Eretz Israel
    5. Every square inch of historical Palestine belongs to the Jewish people “because God gave it to us.”
    6. feminism has destroyed family values, something essential to Judaism
    7. Judea and Samaria
    8. long Jewish history
    9. religious nationalist movement
    10. the land of Israel
    11. we should destroy Hamas and take over the whole city and we should do it according to Jewish law
    12. women’s role in Israeli society should be based on Jewish Biblical principles
    13. you represent good, they represent evil

    With regard to “Jewish law,” it is apparent that Feiglin is referring to Jewish *religious* law.

    Annie wrote: “Feiglin’s religious nationalist movement “Manhigut Yehudit“, meaning “Jewish Leadership” is the largest faction within the Likud Central Committee, which decides Likud Party policy.”

    Likud dominates the Israeli government. The worldwide Israel lobby marches in lockstep with the Israeli government.

    To effectively challenge this political agenda one must deconstruct the Torah-based religious ideology that empowers and supports it.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 27, 2014, 6:17 pm

      “To effectively challenge this political agenda one must deconstruct the Torah-based religious ideology that empowers and supports it.”

      There are already several alternate even opposed interpretation extant.

      But really, what gives you this funny idea that Jews are anymore obedient to their Scriptures than Christians or Muslims are to theirs? Can you tell me how this adherence to Scriptural interpretation is arrived at, promulgated to Jews, and enforced in the Jewish religion?

      And it better be a doozie, considering the small numbers of Jews who are connected with the organized religion.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 28, 2014, 2:02 pm

        Mooser,

        This is the question that fascinates me: to what degree have the archetypes, legends, memes, myths, narratives, symbols and themes of the Torah and Old Testament strongly influenced, and resonated with, Jewish secular minds — even militantly Jewish secular minds?

        Think, for instance, of David Ben-Gurion — a self-described atheist.

    • Teapot
      Teapot on December 27, 2014, 8:28 pm

      To effectively challenge this political agenda one must deconstruct the Torah-based religious ideology that empowers and supports it.

      Frankly, I don’t think this has much to do with the Torah. Sadly, you can find people like Feiglin in every religion and every secular ideology. These people are fascists and they’re happy to use whatever they can to justify their bigotry. If you magically turned Feiglin into a Buddhist, I am sure that within a month he’d be able to (mis-)cite lots of Buddhist scriptures on why non-Buddhists needed to be denied their rights, ethnically cleansed and murdered.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 28, 2014, 10:05 am

        Teapot,

        You wrote:

        “Frankly, I don’t think this has much to do with the Torah. Sadly, you can find people like Feiglin in every religion and every secular ideology.”

        Nearly the entire Jewish religious establishment supports Zionism — not just Moshe Feiglin — and it uses the Torah and Judaism to justify Zionist and Israeli policies.

        Without the bedrock support of the Jewish religious establishment, the entire Zionist project would probably collapse.

        What binds together liberal Zionist Chuck Schumer in the Democratic Party and neoconservative Zionist Elliott Abrams in the Republican Party? — they are both Jewish religious Zionists who believe that Judaism and Zionism constitute a single seamless ideology.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 28, 2014, 2:54 pm

        “I am sure that within a month he’d be able to (mis-)cite lots of Buddhist scriptures on why non-Buddhists needed to be denied their rights, ethnically cleansed and murdered”

        Like I said, Sean wants to have one of those “Which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg-salad-sandwich?” discussions. They’re useless.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 28, 2014, 3:05 pm

        Mooser,

        “Like I said, Sean wants to have one of those “Which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg-salad-sandwich?” discussions. They’re useless.”

        The archetypes, legends, memes, myths, narratives, symbols and themes used by contemporary religious Zionists, both Jewish and Christian, have their explicit origins in the Torah and Old Testament. There is nothing remotely chicken-or-egg about it. The Torah provides the ideological foundation for contemporary religious Zionism (and most of secular Zionism as well).

        See this:

        BEGIN ARTICLE
        TITLE Zionism as Judaism
        AUTHOR Robert Wolfe
        DATE April 2005
        PUBLICATION The Jewish Magazine
        URL http://www.jewishmag.com/89mag/zionism/zionism.htm
        BEGIN EXCERPTS
        There exist innumerable definitions of Zionism. The one I prefer is: Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. The question I want to raise here is: what is the relationship of Zionism to Judaism? Some see Zionism as an outgrowth of Judaism, others as its antithesis. In my view, Zionism is Judaism.

        Anyone who has studied this religion in any depth can have no doubt as to what it was all about. It was about the expectation that if the Jews performed the mitzvot correctly, the Messiah would come and restore the Jews to the land of their birth. This was the faith which sustained the Jewish people during the long centuries of exile, segregation and persecution. If there was a difference among Jews, it was between those who passively awaited the coming of the Messiah and those who sought to “force the end” by actions intended to bring about the ingathering of the exiles even without divine intervention.

        From the 13th century onwards, those who sought to “force the end” were identified with the teachings of Kabbalah. And central to Kabbalah was a text known as the “Zohar”, which taught that only in the land of Israel could the religion of the Jews reach its full stature. Starting in the late 15th century in connection with the expulsion from Spain and Portugal and the rise of the Ottoman empire, literally tens of thousands of Kabbalists, most of them Sephardim, did in fact settle in the land of Israel in the “four holy cities” of Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron. These Kabbalists were Zionists in all but name, and their Zionism was a direct expression of the religion of the Jews as they understood it.

        The goals of the secular Zionists were at heart no different from those of the religious Zionists. Those goals were to create a Jewish state and society in the land of Israel that would serve both to rehabilitate the Jewish people and act as a light unto the nations. This was the program of the “Zohar” no less than it was the program of Ben Gurion, and Ben Gurion repeatedly described this program as “Messianic” in his writings and speeches.

        Properly understood, Judaism is first and foremost Judahism. The word Judaism is derived from the word Judah, which is the English form of the Hebrew word “Yehudah”. Judah was originally the name of one of the Hebrew tribes, and because it was the tribe of David, Judah became the name of the Hebrew kingdom which David founded. In other words, Judah in ancient times was not the name of a religion but of a nation state. This nation state occupied approximately the same territory as the modern nation of Israel, and its people spoke the same language as modern Israelis, namely Hebrew.

        The people of Judah also had a religion, but this religion is not perpetuated by any modern version of Judaism since it was centered around the Temple in Jerusalem, which no longer exists, and required the sacrifice of large numbers of sheep, a ritual which is no longer practiced. What remains of Judah today is above all the ideal of a Hebrew language nation state on the territory of the land of Israel, and this ideal is embodied in Zionism to a far greater extent than it is in any modern version of Judaism that is actually called by that name.
        END EXCERPTS
        END ARTICLE

      • annie
        annie on December 28, 2014, 5:15 pm

        “Which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg-salad-sandwich?” ….The archetypes, legends, memes, myths, narratives, symbols and themes used by contemporary religious Zionists, both Jewish and Christian, have their explicit origins in the Torah and Old Testament.

        you’re so predictable sean. did all archetypes, legends, memes, myths, narratives, symbols and themes have their explicit origins in the Torah and Old Testament? had the torah and the old testament never existed do you think man would have figured out colonialism? what about ethnic cleansing? what about say as i do and do as i say? what about caste systems? what about man’s instinct to better ‘his kind’. what about respect your parents or ‘Honor your father and your mother ‘. how much of the torah is just part of human nature (and designs to control people inherent in some people). what came first? human nature or the torah. or is the torah responsible for human nature. let’s play the other chicken and egg game, or does everything always circle back around to your point?

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 28, 2014, 5:54 pm

        Maybe his point is that the neocons and PEPs don’t constantly exalt their “Judeo-Christian” mission for nothing? The chosen nation and the exceptional nation? Both on a partnering mission? I remember a time, growing up in USA, when the USA was always referred to as a “Christian nation,” and then I watched the evolution to the “Judeo-Christian” nation. And today, on CSPAN, I watched a panel of experts discussing SCOTUS and the battle over the First Amendment re religion, including as it relates to Muslim Americans. What was clear was that it won’t be in the next decade when it’s OK to include the Koran as the book for politicians and government workers to swear America’s allegiance to in the ceremony taking up their elected or appointed duties.

      • annie
        annie on December 28, 2014, 4:47 pm

        “Frankly, I don’t think this has much to do with the Torah. Sadly, you can find people like Feiglin in every religion and every secular ideology.”

        Nearly the entire Jewish religious establishment supports Zionism — not just Moshe Feiglin — and it uses the Torah and Judaism to justify Zionist and Israeli policies.

        teapot, note how sean, while launching off using your quote, never actually addresses your point at all. it just seems like he has ‘in response’ due to the way it’s formatted.

        anyway, wrt your point. i do agree that people who are fascists are happy to use whatever they can to justify their bigotry. people have been using ideologies against the masses to maintain their positions in power since the beginning of time. i’d imagine most religions were formed this way. i mean, it doesn’t really take a rocket scientist to think up the idea “you will only be happy if we do it my way” which is similar to ‘you only get to heaven my way’ or ‘you only get to heaven thru jesus’ or ‘you only get ahead if you follow the rules’. the same way it doesn’t take any kind of brilliance to figure out ‘thou shall not kill’ (i swear someone else would have come up w/that line had god not said it first) most religious parables are just scenarios designed to get the masses on the same page.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 28, 2014, 6:44 pm

        Annie wrote:

        “i do agree that people who are fascists are happy to use whatever they can to justify their bigotry. people have been using ideologies against the masses to maintain their positions in power since the beginning of time. i’d imagine most religions were formed this way. ”

        So how would you characterize the beliefs of the leaders of Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism in 1956:

        “1,350 U.S. Rabbis Denounce the American Council for Judaism” | Jewish Telegraphic Agency http://www.jta.org/1956/05/07/archive/1350-u-s-rabbis-denounce-the-american-council-for-judaism

        and in 1965:

        “800 Rabbis in Call for Zionist Enrollment on Eve of 5726 New Year”
        http://www.jta.org/1965/09/14/archive/800-rabbis-in-call-for-zionist-enrollment-on-eve-of-5726-new-year

        and currently in 2014. In your opinion are they reliable authorities on Judaism? If not, who is? And do you see any signs that JVP is making headway in changing their beliefs about the synonymy of Judaism and Zionism?

      • annie
        annie on December 28, 2014, 11:12 pm

        do you see any signs that JVP is making headway in changing their beliefs about the synonymy of Judaism and Zionism?

        making any headway? i wasn’t aware jvp’s was involved in a campaign focusing on “synonymy of Judaism and Zionism”. have you made any headway? how’s the conversation about it at your blog coming along?

        “people have been using ideologies against the masses to maintain their positions in power since the beginning of time. i’d imagine most religions were formed this way. ”

        So how would you characterize the beliefs of the leaders of Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism in 1956:

        i’d say they were using ideologies against the masses to maintain their positions in power.

        and in 1965:

        i’d say they were using ideologies against the masses to maintain their positions in power.

        In your opinion are they reliable authorities on Judaism?

        as i mentioned here earlier http://mondoweiss.net/2014/12/virginia-liberal-zionist#comment-731000 i don’t have the same regard for the establishment or authorities that you do. so, wrt a religion, i wouldn’t necessarily cojoin the terms ‘reliable’ and ‘authorities’ together. i’ve already explained to you i am not a religious person so i’m not the person to interrogate regarding religious authorities or who is or who is not an authority.

        did all archetypes, legends, memes, myths, narratives, symbols and themes have their explicit origins in the Torah and Old Testament? had the torah and the old testament never existed do you think man would have figured out colonialism? what about ethnic cleansing? what about say as i do and do as i say? what about caste systems? – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/12/million-palestinians-feiglin/comment-page-1#comment-732574

        i noticed you skipped all my questions. ;) too tough to handle!

        if you feel the need to confront this issue directly and forthrightly — not evade or dance around it – why not write an article or a book about it and see if you can get it published. there’s lots of opportunities for self publishing nowadays. put your thoughts out there in a coherent package and see if you can illuminate the masses.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 28, 2014, 5:33 pm

        Right now, seems the Israelis are a form of Crusaders funded and diplomatically protected by the 98% Gentile USA, the sole superpower. The USA is majority Christian, yet contemporary American Christians generally view the historical Crusades as a giant mistaken arrogance, as do nearly all American secular humanists. Eventually American Christianity overwhelmingly also took a stance against slavery, then against Jim Crow. Perhaps seanmcbride’s stress in at least partially on the notion it’s time to look at Judaism the way we have evolved to look at Christianity in the USA? Some Arabs in the Middle East refer to the US & Western allies intervening in their land as “the Crusaders” or “Crusader infidels.” Maybe not without reason? Look to the nature of Western imperialism re motives, and the motives of the instigators and troops of The Crusades. In both cases, hard to separate power, economic exploitation, and religious fervor. The Knights of Malta lasted only so long, and so too the IDF?

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 28, 2014, 7:22 pm

        Citizen,

        The discussion about religious Zionism — both Judaism and Christian Zionism — is really about the power of the Israel lobby in contemporary American politics and the ideological glue that holds the lobby together. Until that ideology is effectively challenged and deconstructed, I doubt that progressive anti-Zionists are going to be successful in changing the attitudes and policies of the US Congress on Israel and Mideast politics.

        You wrote: “Perhaps seanmcbride’s stress in at least partially on the notion it’s time to look at Judaism the way we have evolved to look at Christianity in the USA?”

        Precisely.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 11:02 am

        “This is the question that fascinates me”

        Of course it is. You have a habit of getting things backward.
        But, at any rate, Sean, you’re right, okay, for the sake of argument, I accept that Zionism is completely caused by the Jewish religion.
        Now, what do you think should be done about it? If Zionism is a product of, is the inevitable result of, the Jewish religion as presently constituted, what can be done about it? After all, given all those facts about the religion, we can’t count on the Jews to fix themselves, so what should be done? Care to tell us?

        “note how sean, while launching off using your quote, never actually addresses your point at all. it just seems like he has ‘in response’ due to the way it’s formatted. “

        Yup, I always say, that Sean is like a computer! He’s got a lot of artificial intelligence.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 29, 2014, 11:28 am

        Mooser,

        What should be done? Uncouple Judaism from Zionism through the usual methods that are used to influence the complexion and development of all ideologies in the world throughout history — by intellectual challenge, discussion, argument, debate, etc. Pursue the conversation. Change minds.

        When you examine the intellectual history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam over centuries (and all other religious and secular ideologies), you will realize that these kinds of conversations have always been burning hot — they never stop.

        The main point: Judaism — and Torah/Old Testament myths and memes — have been the primary force that has bound together most of the key factions of the Israel lobby all across the political spectrum. It’s the elephant in the room. This issue needs to be addressed directly and relentlessly.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 29, 2014, 11:45 am

        Mooser,

        By the way — perhaps you haven’t noticed — but I am searching for ways for Judaism to survive and prosper — not to eliminate it. I didn’t think it was necessary to make that point explicit (it should be obvious in the overall pattern of my comments).

        There is a large set of positive values in Judaism that most of us respect.

        But as of 2014, Judaism, for the most part, has tied its reputation and fate to Zionism and the policies and actions of the Israeli government. How is not possible to see the disaster that is brewing?

        An analogy: imagine if the reputation and fate of Roman Catholicism were exclusively tied to that of the nation of Italy and the Italian government — or, what would even be worse — to that of, say, the Mussolini regime. (Benjamin Netanyahu, in his bombastic and bullying nationalism, sometimes reminds one of Benito Mussolini.)

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 29, 2014, 2:20 pm

        @ seanmcbride’s comments and the comments of those responding to his comments:

        Christian Zionism is viewed by the majority of American Christian denominations as heresy, although the newer, less formal American Christian Protestant sects favor the Hagee perspective. Still, the Christian Zionists form about 25% of all self-identified American Christians. Seems to me seanmcbride is asking American Jews to follow suit, to more support openly a denunciation of Jewish Zionism as the more traditional Christian denominations have openly rejected Christian Zionism.

        Here’s some context on the Christian schism: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/guest-writers/6743-christian-zionism-the-new-heresy-that-undermines-middle-east-peace

        There is, after all, the reality of the state of Israel as the only ME nuclear superpower, aided and abetted over decades by the sole superpower in the world. US taxpayers pay a big chunk of all US foreign aid to support Israel, including the big chunk paid to
        Egypt solely on condition it supports Israel.

        It’s not like the IDF is the Papal Guard, although a few tax dollars to pay for some old long-poled battle axes would be cheaper than a squadron or two of F-35s loaded with the latest missiles and white phosphorus gadgets.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 11:38 pm

        “Seems to me seanmcbride is asking American Jews to follow suit, to more support openly a denunciation of Jewish Zionism as the more traditional Christian denominations have openly rejected Christian Zionism.”

        There is no comparable process in Judaism which can do that.
        Just as some Christian religions have a process (think of the Presbyterians, and their resolutions) which enables them to face this problem, come to a consensus, and act on it (within their rights and the law, of course, as they do), and many don’t, and it’s up to the individual church-owner to deal with it, as he or she sees fit.
        I don’t think there is such a process in Judaism, for better or worse. Of course, there may be a central religious authority, akin to the Vatican for Roman Catholicism, where either consensus can be reached, or Divine authority invoked if necessary in Judaism and I just haven’t heard of it.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 29, 2014, 11:52 pm

        It’s fully within the power of Jewish thought leaders to influence Jewish attitudes towards Judaism and Zionism — they simply need to speak out and move the public conversation in their direction — to communicate effectively, to be persuasive.

        It’s not a matter of issuing official diktats from a centralized official religious authority. Change the cultural climate and presumptions about the world which dominate the thinking of Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist leaders.

        The same propaganda methods which were used to sell Zionism to the Jewish community can be used to unsell it.

        The same processes that have periodically driven reform within Judaism throughout history should be encouraged to generate further reform with regard to Judaism’s relations with Zionism.

      • annie
        annie on December 30, 2014, 11:09 am

        re “Jewish thought leaders” It’s fully within the power of all people, or what you call “the cultural climate” to influence Jewish attitudes regarding Zionism. how those people merge those feeling about zionism w/their jewish faith can be an individual process. it’s very likely jewish religious leaders may be the most resistant to change but they will notice (and have undoubtedly noticed) shifting in the youth and other parts of the community towards israel/zionism – as reflected in polls (and i am thinking of the one recently, luntz, about the usage of the word ‘zionism’).

        again, i don’t disagree with you here (re same propaganda methods which were used to sell Zionism to the Jewish community) but again i think you put too much influence in altering the thinking or behavior of jewish authority or establishment. unless by ‘jewish thought leaders’ you’re not referencing authority/establishment. unselling zionism is something that can be impacted greatly by the grassroots. and thought leaders don’t have to be jewish. cultural climate in a society, even jewish society, is impacted by general society and current events. we simply need to communicate effectively, speak out and move the public conversation in our direction, to be persuasive.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 30, 2014, 11:37 am

        @ Annie

        ” It’s fully within the power of all people, or what you call “the cultural climate” to influence Jewish attitudes towards Zionism. how those people merge those feeling about zionism w/their jewish faith can be an individual process. it’s very likely jewish religious leaders may be the most resistant to change.”

        I think that’s exactly what seanmcbride is addressing. So you two agree after all? I notice you separate “all people” and the corresponding “cultural climate” from the Gentiles involved (such as you and me). Why is that? Aren’t we all talking about all people who have an array of individual propensities? Isn’t this re the duty of individual humans, in the context of USA today, with its deference to Jewish sensibilities? Maybe seanmcbride sees this as asking for American Jews to step up to the plate of ethics and morality that their current disproportionate power in USA corresponds with? Phil acknowledges that the old WASP establishment has been relinquished to the Jews. Isn’t seanmcbride simply recognizing this reality and asking accordingly?

      • annie
        annie on December 30, 2014, 4:49 pm

        I think that’s exactly what seanmcbride is addressing.

        of course it’s what sean’s addressing, my comment was a response to his.

        So you two agree after all?

        just because sean and i address eachother over all the things we greatly disagree on doesn’t mean we don’t agree on a lot of things and it’s always been like that.

        I notice you separate “all people” and the corresponding “cultural climate” from the Gentiles involved

        hmm, that was not my intent when i wrote It’s fully within the power of all people, or what you call “the cultural climate” to influence Jewish attitudes regarding Zionism. i think non jews are part of the cultural climate.

        Maybe seanmcbride sees this as asking for American Jews to step up to the plate of ethics and morality that their current disproportionate power in USA corresponds with?

        i don’t think he’s alone in that. my experience is there are lots of people who think american jews have more responsibiltiy than other americans to ‘fix’ this problem. i don’t agree. i think it’s an american problem and requires engagement from a large (the largest possible) segment of the american public. that’s why i said thought leaders don’t have to be jewish. cultural climate in a society, even jewish society, is impacted by general society and current events.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 30, 2014, 7:18 pm

        Citizen,

        “Maybe seanmcbride sees this as asking for American Jews to step up to the plate of ethics and morality that their current disproportionate power in USA corresponds with?”

        Not too much to ask for, I think. With great power comes great responsibilities.

        A perfect analogy: the Jewish community rightfully demanded that the Christian establishment in the West (the United States and Europe) deal forcefully and decisively with the problem of anti-Jewish strains in the Christian ideological tradition. These kinds of requests can justifiably flow in both directions. Reciprocity is reasonable in these matters.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 30, 2014, 11:38 am

        Annie,

        We may disagree on this point (and if we do, no problem — disagreements make the world go around) — but I lean towards the vanguard model of history — major historical movements tend to be created, led and dominated by a few vanguard minds and groups that repeatedly challenge and overthrow current establishments and ideological paradigms.

        For instance, one could view Phil Weiss as a Jewish thought leader who is intellectually challenging the current Jewish establishment (and making some significant headway). In his time, Theodor Herzl was also a Jewish thought leader who challenged and successfully overcame the Jewish establishment of his time.

        But grassroots activity is also extremely important — vanguard leaders without substantial grassroots support usually go nowhere. You need both thought leaders and grassroots activists to create cultural revolutions.

        Thought leaders possess the skills to articulate new paradigms with the most clear and persuasive language — they are formulators of powerful new ideas and great communicators

        The American Founding Visionaries were the predominant thought leaders in their historical context — and their texts are still vibrant today.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 30, 2014, 2:45 pm

        “Jewish thought leaders”? Are we talking Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructivist, Haredi, Chasidm (and there’s probably some I left out)?? Sean, where do you get the idea there is some unified religious and intellectual process within Judaism?

        And as far as all that goobly-gook about the “processes that change ideological blah-blah-blah” I presume you are talking about the Reformation, which proceeded, as you remember, entirely as the result of a unified Christian process of reasoning about their “ideology”?

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 30, 2014, 4:03 pm

        Mooser,

        Orthodox, Conservative, Reform (and even many Reconstructionist) leaders seem to agree on this point: that the Old Testament God (perhaps the most violent character in world literature) promised a particular and special people and nation a particular and special piece of real estate in the Middle East — and that this belief derives its sacred authority from the Torah and the Abrahamic covenant.

        Early Enlightenment Reform Jewish leaders moved away from this belief, but they have backslid during the last century.

        That belief, held by the Jewish religious establishment, and propagated to many young impressionable Jewish (*and* Christian) minds, is the core ideological pillar of contemporary Zionism.

        So perhaps Orthodox, Conservative and Reform leaders collectively could begin to reevaluate and revise that belief system — with the objective in mind, among other things, of preventing the Israeli government and religious Zionists from damaging or destroying the Judaism brand for decades or centuries — or even forever.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 31, 2014, 4:27 pm

        I’m with Annie. Change, as it comes, will engender new institutions or force old ones to change. But it will be a bottoms-up process, not a top-down process.
        And naturally, with the establishment most resistant to change.

      • annie
        annie on December 31, 2014, 4:30 pm

        I’m with Annie.

        ;) happy new year mooser!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 31, 2014, 5:56 pm

        ) “happy new year mooser!”

        Happy New Year to you, too! Bottom’s up!

      • Keith
        Keith on December 31, 2014, 6:34 pm

        CITIZEN- “Maybe seanmcbride sees this as asking for American Jews to step up to the plate of ethics and morality that their current disproportionate power in USA corresponds with?”

        I have a great deal of difficulty imagining any imperial elites, past or present, being particularly concerned with “ethics and morality,” except perhaps as a useful tool in demonizing official enemies. Any honest examination of the extensive historical record will reveal imperial elites to be power-lusting sociopaths who engage in mass murder to achieve their imperial objectives. There is no such thing as a “good” empire, and I am continually distressed by the number of Mondoweiss commenters who apparently believe in American exceptionalism. Israel/Palestine is but one part of a larger picture of imperial warmongering and subjugation. Odious as the neocons and other Zionists are, there is ample precedent for their immoral and unethical behavior.

        I think it would be wise for all of us to reflect upon what an empire is and what it does.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on January 2, 2015, 9:08 pm

        Regarding American Exceptionalism, here’s a short quote by Paul Craig Roberts:

        “… the policy of the US government is what makes the US exceptional. The US is the only country in the world that has attacked 8 countries in 12 years, murdering and dispossessing millions of Muslims all on the basis of lies. This is not an exceptionalism of which to be proud.”

        http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/09/12/putin-steps-into-world-leadership-role-paul-craig-roberts/

    • OyVey00
      OyVey00 on December 29, 2014, 3:25 pm

      Sean, you’re talking against a wall. In the upright Western liberal’s mind, any criticism of minority groups and their customs is off limits. No matter if it’s IS head choppers, domestic terrorists or fanatical settlers slaying their enemies in the name of their God, their religion is never at fault. No, they have been “radicalized” and “misled”, all scripture they quote in defense of their actions is “taken out of context” and they are “not real believers” anyway.

      Except when it’s about Christians of course. Then any of their wrongdoings is just another proof of the wicked patriarchy rooted in outdated Christian superstitions.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 7:56 pm

        I dare anybody to read “OyVey00″s comment, and think of him trying to cross a city street without getting run over.

  13. Kay24
    Kay24 on December 26, 2014, 11:50 pm

    He looks like one morose, mean, and evil man. Every time he opens his mouth, he shows genocidal tendencies, calls for concentration camps,and the suffering of a helpless people.

    ““The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.

    “Therefore I call on the prime minister who we all support in this difficult hour, before we send the IDF into Gaza, we should simply shut down their electricity,” he added.

    Feiglin made these calls for war crimes – heard in the video above – during a session from which he expelled three Palestinian members for criticizing Israel’s full-scale bombardment of Gaza which has claimed more than one hundred Palestinian lives since Monday.” ElectronicIntifada.

    I guess he would fit in well with the Nazis. The zionists whine about some Arab extremist calling for their destruction, but hey, what Feiglin keeps saying is okay by them. He truly represents the mind set so obvious now in their political system.

    “Feiglin’s religious nationalist movement “Manhigut Yehudit“, meaning “Jewish Leadership” is the largest faction within the Likud Central Committee, which decides Likud Party policy”.

  14. just
    just on December 27, 2014, 8:16 am

    “27 December 2008, at 11.27 am, just as students were leaving schools, Israel began its first open war on Gaza.”

    https://twitter.com/Belalmd12/status/548756024341979136

    “I decided to start covering Israel-Palestine during #GazaAttack2008. 1417 were killed in 21 days and things will never be the same.”

    https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/548805757379284992

    Feiglin, July 2014: “Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/feiglins-liberating-palestinians#sthash.3KUT0ivH.dpuf

  15. tommy
    tommy on December 27, 2014, 10:56 am

    Likud must be destroyed, and its ideologues imprisoned.

  16. Shawshank
    Shawshank on December 27, 2014, 11:55 am

    I wonder if he ever heard the joke about the American Dream:

    The American dream is 2 million blacks swimming back to Africa with a JEW under each arm.

  17. Interested Bystander
    Interested Bystander on December 27, 2014, 1:03 pm

    Can someone please share the date and place and audience of this video?

    • just
      just on December 27, 2014, 1:11 pm

      If you’re talking about the first video, Annie has it in her article~ July 14, 2014

      and from the video intro: “MK Moshe Feiglin discusses the war in Gaza and Israel’s bright future with a Beit Shemesh audience Tamuz 5774/July ’14”

      • Interested Bystander
        Interested Bystander on December 27, 2014, 1:32 pm

        Thanks. He says “over there.” What is that word he uses “Sejia” (phonetic)? What is the Hebrew lettering in video? It would be nice to know who filmed and edited this and where.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 28, 2014, 4:57 pm

        See comment below.

  18. MHughes976
    MHughes976 on December 27, 2014, 3:22 pm

    I wonder why we should be outraged as if taken by shocking surprise. All Zionists think, and have always thought since Zionism became its fully defined self in 1905, that the whole Holy Land is a place where only Jews have certain rights pertaining to sovereignty. It would be hard to think of a way of stating the Zionist position in a way that made either division of the land or equal birthright for non-Jewish people thinkable.
    Of course most Zionists accept that Palestinians have right to gracious and generous treatment if only they would accept that they are in the wrong place – according to God’s law or according to scientific analysis of history by dispassionate atheists or whatever: but at any rate in a place where they have no inherent right to be. Some few may actually be granted permission to remain: paid relocation is the obvious humane recourse for the majority.
    The obvious problem is that any means of achieving mass relocation, from the most consensual to the most utterly brutal, where it would verge on sheer elimination, would be very expensive and nothing like this can happen until the West, currently not in possession of enough up-front cash, is ready to pay for it. For this reason only a few Israeli politicians will talk about it.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew on December 27, 2014, 3:34 pm

      Mhughes- I am curious as to why you choose 1905 as the moment of Zionism’s full self definition.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976 on December 27, 2014, 5:09 pm

        I think, Yonah, that that was the year when the Zionist Congress, meeting in Switzerland, voted against a Jewish National Home anywhere but in Palestine, dismissing talk of other supposedly vacant territories – Uganda is usually mentioned. The ‘territorialists’ were thereafter an inconsiderable rump within Zionism – I believe that the distinguished novelist Israel Zangwill was their last well-known supporter. So post-1905 Zionism was unequivocally a claim to Palestine for Jewish people as the place to which they had a unique and overriding right.
        In case we don’t correspond again over the next few days, a very happy New Year.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 27, 2014, 6:18 pm
      • lysias
        lysias on December 27, 2014, 6:33 pm

        I’ve long wondered whether, if the Jews had settled in Uganda, that would have enabled the white settler colonies to survive in Kenya, Rhodesia, and South Africa. I guess it’s a good thing that white rule ended in those places. But the Jews in Israel may pay the price for not agreeing to settle in Uganda: if they could have ensured their rule there, and their rule in Palestine is doomed in the long and even medium run.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 28, 2014, 4:08 pm

        The early Zionists considered at least four places for their desired Jewish state; it was clearly contemplated from the start it would be sold to big imperial powers of the day as a reliable colonial state, a bulwark against the savages and insurance agent for imperial interests, such as Suez Canal and big Oil. The Zionists eventually did their best to work with the Czar, the Brits, colonial Rhodesia, S Africa, etc; then Hitler later. Brief Historical Crib Sheet For Foundation of Israel, Colonial Settler State: http://www.isreview.org/issues/15/israel_colonial.shtml

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 28, 2014, 5:00 pm

        MHughes- Happy new year to you, too.

        The naturalness of Zion as the next home for the Jewish people fleeing from Eastern Europe is self evident given the traditions. Those who figured out logistics though had given us a heads up that there was going to be a crash with the indigenous.

        Yes, the “what if?” factor of Uganda is tantalizing in many ways. But despite the catastrophe that Zionism has been for the indigenous, it has created a state with a large Jewish population and with a Jewish calendar and a Jewish language. Of course if your interest is world peace or the rights of the indigenous these things don’t add up to much for you, but Uganda would not have been the same sort of accomplishment that a return to Zion created.

        The Biltmore program of 1942 is cited by Arendt as the crossing of the Rubicon vis a vis utter coercion vis a vis the indigenous.

        Again I appreciate the New Year’s wishes.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 11:24 am

        “Of course if your interest is world peace or the rights of the indigenous these things don’t add up to much for you, but Uganda would not have been the same sort of accomplishment that a return to Zion created.”

        And a bigoted, completely insane and prejudiced New Year to you, too, Yonah. Are you sure you don’t have time to get in a few more licks at “world peace” and “the indigenous” before “Auld Lang Syne” is sung?

        “but Uganda would not have been the same sort of accomplishment that a return to Zion” created”

        You mean Zionism may not have needed to kill and dispossess as many Ugandans (and cruelly use so many Jews) if they had legally acquired land in Uganda? Nope, you wouldn’t have been able to “accomplish” as much.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 11:34 am

        “But despite the catastrophe that Zionism has been for the indigenous, it has created a state with a large Jewish population and with a Jewish calendar and a Jewish language”

        Excuse me, you are using Jews and Judaism as an excuse to kill people? And take their lands and homes? For a freakin “Jewish calender”? You just keep trying to sell that line, Yonah, it’s real convincing.
        And it is by no means a “Jewish language” Yonah, it’s made-up Israeli Hebrew, an ideologically designed language, which is a linguistic obscenity.

      • eljay
        eljay on December 29, 2014, 11:53 am

        >> yonah fredmaneee: But despite the catastrophe that Zionism has been for the indigenous, it has created a state with a large Jewish population and with a Jewish calendar and a Jewish language.
        >> Mooser: Excuse me, you are using Jews and Judaism as an excuse to kill people? And take their lands and homes? For a freakin “Jewish calender”?

        y.f. is a Zio-supremacist, so he “primarily celebrates“.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 3:04 pm

        “y.f. is a Zio-supremacist, so he “primarily celebrates“.”

        A real nose-holder, that one. And when he’s behind a keyboard, what a macher!

        And for a guy who couldn’t make it in the settlements and came scurrying back to NY city, he’s one heck of an American.

        Edit: Oh, I get it now, if Yonah says “the indigenous” he doesn’t have to say the Palestinians! Wow, if that isn’t one of the weaseliest things ever…

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 29, 2014, 4:21 pm

        I really wasn’t making a moral preference for a Jewish state in Palestine (Israel) over a Jewish state in Uganda. From a historical viewpoint very few Jews headed towards Palestine as a destination compared to North America as a destination and fewer yet would have headed towards a place like Uganda. And so on the basis of Zionism seeking Zion rather than Uganda more Jews moved to Palestine than would have moved to Uganda (although Germany and Poland in the 30’s would have been interesting to see how many would have headed towards Uganda. I don’t think Poland in the 20’s was bad enough for people to move to Uganda.)

        I also cannot comment on how readiness to absorb masses of refugees would have occurred in Uganda and so it is from the perspective of the extreme emergency in Europe between 1939 and 1945 that I base my moral backing for the establishment of a Jewish state in a place that attracted people (because Zion was in some way the “ultimate goal of Jewish history”, whereas Uganda was better than nothing, when life and limb are in danger, but otherwise just a place for refuge, so it would have attracted fewer Jews in the 30’s than Palestine attracted).

        I don’t know if I would have had the strength or the inclination of those that opposed the Biltmore Program of 1942. I can pretty well assume that I would not have supported Uganda in 1903.

        We can imagine a Jewish post war history of no birth of Israel and Uganda replacing Zion as the British mandate. but no matter how much pain and death the decision of 1903 caused, it had a major formative influence on the state of world Judaism circa 2014 vis a vis language and geopolitics and familiarity with the spiritual home of Judaism on the ground rather than just as words in a prayer book.

        Of course I would wave my wand and undo Zionism if it would look like Union Square Park tomorrow. But there is no wand and in fact i deal with the world as I was handed it. What I would have done in 1948, would probably have depended on my reaction to the Biltmore program in 1942. If I would have reflected my upbringing, I would have supported Ben Gurion in 1942 and 1948. Given what I know today I would oppose Biltmore, but i have more knowledge than I would have had in 1942 and 1948.

        (To be specific: i have relatives that survived by moving to Palestine and if Uganda had been the refuge they might have chosen Poland and death.)

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 29, 2014, 6:19 pm

        The indigenous Arabs in 1948 rarely referred to themselves as Palestinians, so to do so in retrospect seems to be a historical gloss, as in an error, as in an anachronism, as in an inaccuracy. In 2014 if Hanan Zouabi wishes to call herself Palestinian by all means. She is a Palestinian and if Omar Barghouti wants to call himself a Palestinian. By all means, he is a Palestinian. But if anyone tells me that the mufti was a Palestinian, when the name of his organization was Arab Higher Committee and none of the militias used the term Palestinian to describe themselves and it is only rare individual Palestinians of the pre 1948 era who called themselves Palestinian, to use the term Palestinian rather than Arab or indigenous strikes me as being oblivious to the history of that moment. And devoted to the propaganda of this moment in stead of accuracy for accuracy sake.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 29, 2014, 6:26 pm

        Mooser- Regarding Hebrew. You don’t know anything about Hebrew or Arabic, or Aramaic. You can’t even read Ivri-Teitch (hebrew German) when it’s written in Hebrew letters. And yet i have to listen to you tell me what Hebrew is and is not.

        It is the language of the Torah.
        It is the language of 99% of the Tanach.
        It is the language of the Mishna.
        It is the language of the prayer book.
        It is the language of Maimonides’s Mishne Torah.
        It is the language of the Shulchan Aruch (the major work delineating Jewish law).
        It was the preferred language of the Haskala (jewish enlightenment.)

        Talk about something that you know something about instead of parroting the crap you read on the internet.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 29, 2014, 7:52 pm

        “The indigenous Arabs in 1948 rarely referred to themselves as Palestinians, so to do so in retrospect seems to be a historical gloss ”

        I doubt that the Etruscans called themselves “the Etruscans”.

        Why does it create a misleading impression to refer to the pre-1948 Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Arabs of Palestine as “Palestinians”?

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 29, 2014, 7:55 pm

        ‘For a freakin “Jewish calendar”?’

        Mooser, it may be a very nice calendar, with pictures of fluffy kittens or sexy girls.

        “and a Jewish language”

        Just what the world needed. Another language barrier.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 7:59 pm

        Yonah, you have to call them “the indigenous”? I usually hear it as “the indigenous people” Can’t even bring yourself to use the word “people”. What a sad case you are.
        No wonder you have to be kept indoors.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 29, 2014, 8:07 pm

        @ yonah fredman

        How many Jews in Palestine called themselves “Israeli” before 1948? How many even now, in 2014, refer to their group and/or government as “we, Israelis”?
        Did the various native American tribes call themselves “we, Indians”? or “we, native Americans”?

        What’s your point? What’s their point?
        Are we really talking about all those old house keys the natives of Palestine still have in their possession, despite having been terrorized out of their homes for so many decades?

      • Zofia
        Zofia on December 29, 2014, 8:15 pm

        Yonah- you wrote:
        Talk about something that you know something about instead of parroting the crap you read on the internet.BUT BEFORE THAT YOU WROTE:
        “The indigenous Arabs in 1948 rarely referred to themselves as Palestinians”.
        Where did you get that info??

        You should read:
        1.H. Gerber, Remembering and Imagening Palestine, Palgrave Macmillan, New York 2008
        2.And his “‘Palestine’ and Other Territorial Concepts in the 17th Century.” International Journal of Middle East Studies 30 (1998)
        3.Doumani, Beshara, “Rediscovering Ottoman Palestine: Writing Palestinians into History.” Journal of Palestine Studies 21(2) (1992)
        4.Doumani, Beshara, Rediscovering Palestine: Merchants and Peasants in Jabal Nablus, 1700-1900 (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1995)

        If you read it you will learn that you are wrong.

        In Gerber you read:
        Among other things Mujir al-Din’s book [he wrote history of Jerusalem and Hebron, in the 1490s. Mujir al-Din al-Hanbali al-Ulaymi, a scholar and resident ofJerusalem (d. 1519)]is notable for its extensive use of the term “Palestine.” The simple fact is that Mujir al-Din calls the country he lives in Palestine (Filastin), a term he repeats 22 times. One other name he uses for the country is the Holy Land, used as frequently as Palestine. No other names, such as Southern Syria, are ever mentioned… The most deliberate treatment of the term “Palestine” comes in a geographical dictionary of the names of towns in the country, where the term Palestine is embedded in the entry for al-Ramla, called in medieval times Ramlat Falastin. Talking about al-Ramla, Mujir notes that Falastin is also the name of the country.
        That the book is not only about Jerusalem but about Palestine is clear from the geographical dictionary, which gives a historical summary of towns, ranging from Gaza in the South to Nablus in the North. It is again an undeclared history of Palestine. What area did he have in mind when speaking about Palestine? It stretched from Anaj, a point near al-Arish, to Lajjun, south of the Esdraelon valley. It was thus clearly equivalent to the Jund Filastin of classical Islam.
        The next writer to use the name of whom we have any knowledge lived two and half centuries after Mujir al-Din. This was another remarkable person, Khayr al-Din al-Ramli, an independent mufti and legal scholar in al-Ramla in the seventeenth century, who left for posterity a most important collection of fatwas…Nor was Khayr al-Din al-Ramli an obscure personality. Quite the reverse: all legal jurists from Syria and Palestine after the seventeenth century used his material intensively, and unquestionably knew every fatwa in it inside out.All this information becomes important if we bear in mind that on several occasions Khayr al-Din al-Ramli calls the country he was living in Palestine, and unquestionably assumes that his readers do likewise. What is even more remarkable is his use of the term “the country” and even “our country” (biladuna), possibly meaning that he had in mind some sort of a loose community focused around that term.
        Another Palestinian writer of the seventeenth century who used Filastin to name his country was Salih b. Ahmad al-Timurtashi, who wrote a fadail (Merits) book titled “The Complete Knowledge of the Limits of the Holy Land and Palestine and Syria (Sham)”… Palestine was not automatically or necessarily part of Syria.
        According to Haim Gerber this all is proof that the name was commonly used by the population of the area. “The term Jund Filastin or “the administrative region of Palestine” was current in Arab parlance from some time after the establishment of Muslim rule in the Fertile Crescent in the mid-seventh century until 1250. But when the Mamluk dynasty assumed power in Egypt and Syria-Palestine it changed the administrative nomenclature altogether, dropping the term Palestine from usage. The Ottomans followed suit, and the name was never again used officially until the time of the Mandate. While the term was in administrative use it was also part and parcel of popular usage. The people dropped the Jund and called the country where they lived “Filastin.” Obviously, only the common people could bring about such a situation”.

        You should also read about Medieval Praise Literature is one early place where Palestine is often referred to as a Holy Land- In Gerber’s book or in A. Elad, Medieval Jerusalem and Islamic Worship: Holy Places, Ceremonies, Pilgrimage, Brill, New York 1995.

        Another Mufti Hasan al-Husayni (XVIII/XIX) also used names: Palestine and Holy Land. As Mufti he served as a judge for the whole of Palestine. He gave judgments and opinions for cities such as Jaffa, Gaza, Akko, Bethlehem, Hebron and Nablus. He believed that the law must be consistent with national(bilad).

        In 1911- it was used by Isa al-Isa as the name of his newly founded
        newspaper.
        Khalil Totah (historian), who together with’Umar Salih al-Barghuti (lawyer and nationalist)wrote “Tarih Filastin”History of Palestine in 1922.
        In 1923 Sabri Sarif’Abd al-Hadi, a geography teacher in Nablus, published a work entitled “Ǧuḡrāfiyyat Sūriyya Filasṭīn wa at-Ṭabi’iyya” (Natural Geography of Syria and Palestine).
        Totah wrote in 1921: „Ǧuḡrāfiyyat Filasṭīn”
        Jurji Habib Hanania-established an association called Filasṭīn al-Fatāt (read in: “Jurji Habib Hanania History of the Earliest Press in Palestine, 1908-1914, „The Jerusalem Quarterly”).

        In the late 1920’s the Palestinian community in Santiago in Chile sent several letters to Filastin’s editor informing him about of a young wrestler and boxer who left Palestine for Chile at the age of 20 – Abdel-Rahman al-Jizawi became a major national symbol for Palestine in that decade.Al-Jizawi demonstrated great feats of strength – he was able to bend metal bars and challenged and defeated an Italian wrestler 20 kilograms above his weight class. His Arab fans went wild that day, carrying him on their shoulders and chanting, “Long live Palestine, Long live the Arabs, Long live al-Jizawi.” The wrestler was lauded in Chilean newspapers and he soon became a household name- in: I. Khalidi, The Coverage of Sports News in „Filastin” 1911-1948, „The Jerusalem Quarterly”.

        More about Palestinian press and their languauge read:R. Khalidi, Palestinian Identity
        Read also: B. Abu-Manneh, The Rise of the Sanjak of Jerusalem in the Late Nineteenth Century, [in:] The Israel/Palestine Question,ed. I. Pappe, Routledge, London 1999
        J. Bussow, Hamidian Palestine: Politics and Society in the District of Jerusalem 1972-1908, Brill, Leiden 2011
        There you will read about: “vilayet Filastin” (in Rashid Khalidi, Palestinain Identity, page 151) which was used next to: “Kuds-i Serif Eyaleti”.
        Also in Doumani, Rediscovering Palestine…

        There are of course many other examples but the name was in popular use for a very long time, and even Ottomans used them. Read: Gerber’s book and Salim Tamari: Shifting Ottoman Conceptions of Palestine in Jerusalem Quarterly.

        It was used in varous docs, fatwas, press, sports, textbooks, history book (written by Palestinians), poems, etc. LONG BEFORE your 1948 date….

        So you are wrong with your statement.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 8:17 pm

        “But there is no wand and in fact i deal with the world as I was handed it.”

        Yup, exactly, Yonah. Because if you did anything but take what was handed you, you might have to work, or think. You deserve better than that, being a better order of being than “the indigenous”

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 29, 2014, 9:06 pm

        RoHa- If one is referring to all the inhabitants of Palestine in 1948 then referring to them as Palestinians would be useful. Since they were in the midst of a civil war of sorts it would be useful to label the combatants as one side is x and the other side is y and therefore Jews versus Arabs or Jews versus Muslims or Jews versus christians might be more useful then saying Palestinians which would not be useful. Like referring to a New York baseball player as a Yankee rather than saying the ball players scored twice in the top of the 2nd and the score is ball players 2 ball players 1.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 29, 2014, 9:39 pm

        Or we can use modern terminology and say “Palestinians vs. Zionists”.

      • adele
        adele on December 29, 2014, 10:31 pm

        Yonah,
        why do you need the UN transcript from 1948 when Zofia kindly provided you with extensive scholarly references dating from the 1400’s to the early 1900’s illustrating the usage of the term Palestinian/Palestine as a descriptive used by the inhabitants of the land when referring to themselves/their place of residence?

        In case you missed Zofia’s reply (which I am sure took time and effort to compile) to you a few comments up above, here is the link: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/12/million-palestinians-feiglin#comment-732760

        Why don’t you read through it and absorb the information in Zofia’s comment rather than exerting your energy in a rather transparent attempt to obfuscate Palestinian national identity and history.

      • Zofia
        Zofia on December 29, 2014, 10:50 pm

        Thank you Adele :)

      • RoHa
        RoHa on December 29, 2014, 11:45 pm

        Though I will add that I agree that, pre-1948, the term “Palestinian” should refer to any citizen of Palestine. On the other hand, saying “Arab vs Jew” obscures the fact that some of those Arabs were Jews. Perhaps “Zionist vs anti-Zionist” or “Zionist vs Integrationist” would be better.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 30, 2014, 12:10 am

        “How many Jews in Palestine called themselves “Israeli”

        Citizen, as I recall the writing of Uri Avnery and Shlomo Sand, the ‘right’ to call themselves “Israeli” instead of “Jewish” is something they are fighting for!
        So I think the answer is: The Jews in Israel still are not identified as “Israeli” (as a nationality) they are identified as “Jewish”, by their own freakin’ government.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 30, 2014, 12:24 am

        “On the other hand, saying “Arab vs Jew”…

        ….rhetorically widens the conflict about as far as it’ll go, doesn’t it? That there is called the language of peace, don’t you know. Heals the world, that kind rhetoric.

      • seafoid
        seafoid on December 31, 2014, 5:50 pm

        “It is the language of the Torah. It is the language of 99% of the Tanach.”

        Modern Hebrew had to be reinvented, Yonah. for those German sounds. And words to describe real life situations such as “torture that Palestinian”. Very little of use was in the Torah as it turned out.

        Modern Hebrew turned out to be the main vector for the delusions of Zionism.
        Yiddish would have saved a lot of trouble.

      • Philemon
        Philemon on January 4, 2015, 8:43 pm

        Mooser, Modern Hebrew is about as artificial as Esperanto, except it uses old Hebrew for its lexicon rather than an amalgamation of different (mostly romance) languages. The syntax is simplified, just as in Esperanto, as is the phonology and morphology.

        Oddly enough, Modern Hebrew syntax is supposedly (from what I’ve read) derived in part from Yiddish dialects which used quite a bit of slavic syntax. Which makes sense prima facie as most of its would-be speakers would have been Yiddish-as-a-second-if-not-first language speakers.

        Modern Hebrew speakers can read text in Old Hebrew, sort of, as in pronounce it and give it a meaning, but only an approximation lacking any insight or nuance because they don’t see its history as a language or appreciate any subtlety in the syntax or morphology as possibly conveying a different interpretation.

        And I’d bet Old Hebrew being a liturgical language, with lots of specialized locutions, not to mention the scholarly in-jokes, is completely lost on them.

  19. German Lefty
    German Lefty on December 27, 2014, 4:30 pm

    Is Israel Unfairly Held to a Higher Standard? Norman Finkelstein on Reality Asserts Itself (1/5)
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7sCwE9zk_N0

    • talknic
      talknic on December 28, 2014, 7:18 am

      “Is Israel Unfairly Held to a Higher Standard?”

      After having been give hundreds of opportunities to fulfill its obligations to binding International Laws, UN Charter and relevant conventions re-affirmed and emphasized in hundreds of UN/UNSC resolutions, the answer is of course … no!

      Israel is a spoiled rotten, rogue state, deeply indebted to the rest of the world for its existence and the leniency it has been afforded for 66 years of illegal actions and illegal facts on the ground in non-Israeli territories.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 28, 2014, 3:38 pm

        I just watched a half hour show on the Jewish cable TV channel; it was devoted to bad-mouthing the UN as a den of criminals, a totally useless parade of insignificant state officials living rent free, their rent and salaries paid for by the USA. Some African countries were used as examples. Nothing about Israel owing it’s legitimacy to the UN, of course.

      • German Lefty
        German Lefty on December 29, 2014, 6:20 am

        @ Citizen (no reply button)

        There is a “Jewish TV channel”!?

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 29, 2014, 8:54 am

        @ GermanLefty
        Yes: JLTV (Jewish Life TV). In my locality it’s Channel 172.
        It’s also in Canada.
        http://www.jltv.tv

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba on December 29, 2014, 7:47 pm

      Excuse me !!!!!???? Yonah Fredman . When my family has lived in a place called Palestine for many, many generations what should I call myself? Polynesian ? I am a Palestinian, my culture is Arab/Meditrranean . We are not a race . Neither are the Jewish people !
      I learned to draw the Palestine flag when I was 4 years old …when my father was exiled from Palestine by the British for standing up for his rights in his land . I was 13 years old when my parents took me and my brother and fled after the terrorists committed their vile act in Deir Yassin… they would never have left Palestine had it not been for us children.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 8:01 pm

        “Excuse me !!!!!???? Yonah Fredman . When my family has lived….”

        My friend, I’ve come to the conclusion that only a properly-shaped extract of ash-tree branches, applied liberally about the head and ribs, will ever change Yonah.

        I think Yonah may be touchy because everybody is criticizing the plan he thought was so ‘natural’ and humane. Him having “no moral preference”, as you know.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 29, 2014, 8:49 pm

        bintbiba- Does it offend you if i call the Arabs who lived in Palestine in 1948 indigenous or Arabs rather than Palestinians? If it does, I am sorry. But I am used to referring to the Arabs who lived in Palestine previous to 1948 as indigenous and Arabs and not Palestinians. I have been taught that the Jews of Palestine were more attached to the title Palestinian than the Arabs were. I am not asserting that as a fact, but i will use language that fits in with the history that I read, even if it does not fit in with the history that you read.

        I apologize if I have offended you.

        I wonder what percentage of Palestinians in 1939 would have recognized the Palestinian flag. I have no idea. I assume it is a small percentage- between 5 and 10% but i have no way of knowing. I wonder if in 1914 a Palestinian were asked, where do you live, how many would have answered Palestine? I have no idea. I have read that the national consciousness that flowered into the PLO was something that was not in full bloom in 1948.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 29, 2014, 9:02 pm

        @ yonah fredman
        1948? What a coincidence, that’s when Israelis were invented too!

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on December 29, 2014, 9:49 pm

        If the transcripts of the debates at the UN in 1947 are available it would be easy to check how many times the Palestinians referred to themselves as Arabs and how many times they referred to themselves as Palestinians.

      • Zofia
        Zofia on December 29, 2014, 10:44 pm

        Why do you insist that they are opposite concepts in the first place?:)
        You must have got no idea about Arab nationalism and Palestinian nationalism whatsoever, eh?:)
        There are many books about that,for example by R. Khalidi, I. Gershoni and Migdal, M. Muslih or read various ideas (of Arab authors) about it all in “Arab Nationalism: An Anthology”, by Sylvia Kedourie (Editor), Sylvia G. Haim.

        Palestinians don’t have problem with Arab/Palestinian identity (nor other ppl in the Middle East about their own Arab/XX identity);]
        I gave you a list already when I wrote about the fact that they called themselves Palestinians long before 1948: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/12/million-palestinians-feiglin#comment-732760

        you might add also:
        CONFRONTING AN EMPIRE, CONSTRUCTING A NATION. Arab Nationalists and Popular Politics in Mandate Palestine, by Weldon C. Matthews.

        Besides do you know that there is no single identity of a human?? There are books about it, you should read them. For example Stuart Hall, Charles Taylor and many others…
        About nationalism read: C. Calhoun “Nationalism”- there you have a nice bibliography

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on December 30, 2014, 4:26 am

        @Zofia
        Thank you for that excellent and very detailed reply to Yonah. I learned a lot and look forward to reading more from those sources

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 10:44 pm

        “I have read that the national consciousness that flowered into the PLO was something that was not in full bloom in 1948.”

        So that gives Zionists the right to steal their land and kill and expel them?
        Another words, the Zionists are punishing the Palestinian people for being basically pretty peaceful?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 10:56 pm

        “I have been taught that the Jews of Palestine were more attached to the title Palestinian than the Arabs were. “

        And of course, you must persist in being wrong, or something terrible will happen!

      • adele
        adele on December 29, 2014, 11:01 pm

        Zofia,
        thank YOU for all these wonderful resources you are compiling, what a wealth of information – most of which I was not familiar with. I’m bookmarking them to explore further over the next few days.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 29, 2014, 11:03 pm

        “You must have got no idea about Arab nationalism and Palestinian nationalism whatsoever, eh?:)”

        Zofia, if there’s one thing Yonah knows about, it’s “self-determination”.

      • adele
        adele on December 30, 2014, 12:52 am

        Yonah,
        I have a few questions with regard to your comment. Appreciate if you could provide more details.

        Y: I have been taught that the Jews of Palestine were more attached to the title Palestinian than the Arabs were.

        Can you elaborate further on where you were taught this, and why you would believe this to be true?

        Y: I am not asserting that as a fact, but i will use language that fits in with the history that I read, even if it does not fit in with the history that you read.

        You keep referring to “history that I read”; can you share with us what books you are referring to? In doing so it could help provide us with some understanding as to the basis of your assertions.

        Y: I wonder what percentage of Palestinians in 1939 would have recognized the Palestinian flag. I have no idea. I assume it is a small percentage- between 5 and 10% but i have no way of knowing.

        Wow, that is a rather ignorant and presumptuous statement. If you “have no idea” and “no way of knowing”, why do you make assumptions that are so prejudiced to the Palestinian collective experience?

        Y: I have read that the national consciousness that flowered into the PLO was something that was not in full bloom in 1948.

        Again, where did you read this? I am genuinely curious to know what books you are reading that is (mis)informing you on Palestinian history. Are you aware of the 1916 Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire? Some historians attribute this (in part) to the nascent Arab secular Nationalist movement. It has been quite a few years since I focused on this particular history but do recall the basic historical events and the widely accepted interpretations/analysis. Palestinian society was significantly affected by, and participated in, these events, so to make a blanket assertion such as you do robs Palestinians of their historical experience.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on December 30, 2014, 4:21 am

        @adele
        A lot of these so called facts people like Yonah believe come from years of indoctrination from simply growing up in their communities. I’m speaking from experience. They repeat the same stuff over and over again and it becomes their truth. It has nothing to do with actual real facts or proper scholarly investigation. Another word for it is brainwashing

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on December 30, 2014, 4:50 am

        @Bintbiba
        Thank you for sharing some facts about your childhood in Palestine. It’s hard to imagine just how frightening and devastating that was. And then to lose everything: your life there, livelihoods ,land and property. And then not being allowed to return but watching those that stole it from you invite others from all over the world to come and live there.
        How does anyone deal with that?

        Unfortunately real life facts do not seem to make a dent into that brainwashed zionist ideology and that’s the scary part

      • Zofia
        Zofia on December 30, 2014, 8:32 am

        @Yonah:
        I want to add also this (it was 4 am so I didn’t have the time;p ):
        More about Palestinian Nationalism (neutral term)
        Delegates from the Palestinian territories to the Ottoman parliament, regardless of their attitude towards the central government (mostly supported decentralization) treated Palestine as a separate territorial unit, which had its own socio-political interests. Naǧīb Azuri already in 1908 proposed his candidacy for parliament as a Palestinian representative. Such delegates as Ruhi al-Halidi, Sa’id al-Husayni and Hafiz as-Sa’id for example warned against too liberal policy towards Jewish immigration and Zionism, which according to them, was harming the local socio-political interests in Palestine.

        Read for example about the letter written by Yūsuf Ḍiyāʾ al-Ḫālidī in 1899 (who was elected to the Ottoman parliament in 1877) to Zadok Kahn,the chief rabbi of France, he suggested that, since Palestine was already inhabited, the Zionists should find another place for the implementation of their political goals. ” … in the name of God,” he wrote, “let Palestine be left alone.”
        In the Name of God, Let Palestine Be Left Alone, Before Their Diaspora, A Project of the Institute for Palestine Studies
        http://btd.palestine-studies.org/content/name-god-let-palestine-be-left-alone-1-0
        R. Khalidi, Palestinian Identity…
        J. Bussow, Hamidian Palestine: Politics and Society in the District of Jerusalem 1972-1908
        A. Manna, Ottoman Period, Late, [in:] Encyclopedia of the Palestinians…,ed.Ph. Mattar
        B. Abu-Manneh, The Rise of the Sanjak of Jerusalem in the Late Nineteenth Century

        During the 20s XX century Palestinians held few delegations to London to present their position as the nation with the right to self-determination. They used the International Law to stress the British obligation to prepare the inhabitants of Palestine to independence.
        The main participants of the delegations were members of the Muslim-Christian Association. The original name: the National [as Palestinian] Arab Party stressed not only their identity as Arabs, but also the fact that they were representatives of the Palestinian people. They were forced to change the name by the British, who wanted to keep the religious division of society, and to weaken national aspirations of the Palestinians. The military authorities wanted to emphasize the anonymity of the delegates who had come to protest against Jewish settlement in Palestine and to advance their national rights.[in: 1193
        S. Huneidi, A Broken Trust: Sir Herbert Samuel, Zionism and the Palestinians]

        They used a series of letters to Churchill and the British. For example in response to a memorandum by Sir Herbert Samuel and Sir John Shuckburgh entitled “British Policy in Palestine,” the Palestinian Arab Delegation, headed by Mousssa Kazin El Husseini, wrote: “The [British] memorandum starts by qualifying us ‘a Delegation from the Moslem Christian Society of Palestine’ not using the expression ‘representing the Moslems and Christians of Palestine.’ Lest it should be imagined that the Moslem- Christian Society is like any other Society we would explain that this Society unmistakably represents the whole of the Moslem and Christian inhabitants of Palestine, who form 93 per cent of the entire population. In their correspondence with the British, the delegation made sure to capitalize the words “People of Palestine” to underscore their message.
        The phrase “People of Palestine” was intended to set the Arab residents of Palestine apart from Arab residents of Syria and Lebanon and, of course, from the Zionists. The Arabs of Palestine also employed Arabism as a principle they hoped the British would use to differentiate the Zionist claim to the land from that made by Arabs. The “People of Palestine,” the delegation argued, were essentially Arabic (on the basis of a shared language, history, and religion) and deserved the same right to form a nation state as the Egyptians, Iraqis, English, and French.They urged the British to rescind the Balfour Declaration and to restrict severely “immigration of alien Jews, many of them of a Bolshevik revolutionary type,” in order to give “the People of Palestine full control of their own affairs.”
        For example in: Shared Land/Conflicting Identity: Trajectories of Israeli & Palestinian Symbol Use, by Robert C. Rowland, David A. Frank.
        Other examples:
        About the Palestinian Arab Congresses
        M. Muslih, Arab Congress, [in:] Encyclopedia of the Palestinians…,ed.Ph.Mattar
        R.Khalidi, The Formation of Palestinian Identity…
        H. Gerber, Remembering and Imagening Palestine…

        The Arab Congresses were countrywide events initially organized at the initiative of the Jerusalem and Jaffa MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATIONS (MCAs) to formulate Palestinian national demands. Seven such congresses were organized between 1919 and 1928.Seven such congresses were organized between 1919 and 1928.

        The First Congress The First Congress (Jerusalem,1919) brought together, for the first time, Palestinian politicians from all around the country in an attempt to formulate a program to be presented at the Paris Peace Conference. Two views were expressed, one favoring complete Palestinian independence and the other stressing Syrian-Palestinian unity. The latter view prevailed. The congress also demanded that Palestine remain an integral part of an independent SYRIA. It rejected the BALFOUR DECLARATION and approved accep- tance of British assistance in the development of the country on condition that such aid did not compromise Palestinian independence. The Third Congress The Third Congress was held in HAIFA in December 1920. By that time, the balance has shifted in favor of those who preferred Palestinian independence to Syrian-Palestinian unity.This congress called for the establishment of a “national government responsible to a representative assembly” under British supervision and guidance if need be. The congress also elected a Jerusalem- based executive committee—known as the ARAB EXECUTIVE—to run the day-to-day activities of the Palestinian national movement. The program of the congress defined Palestinian political objectives in distinct Palestinian terms, thus helping to develop Palestinian nationalism.

        And there is lots more about that… so have fun reading:)

      • talknic
        talknic on December 30, 2014, 12:38 pm

        @ yonah fredman “If the transcripts of the debates at the UN in 1947 are available it would be easy to check how many times the Palestinians referred to themselves as Arabs and how many times they referred to themselves as Palestinians.”

        Uh huh!

        A) Under the LoN Mandate they were Palestinian citizens from at least 1922. Jewish folk could also gain Palestinian citizenship, buy land, settle.

        B) The Palestinians weren’t in the debates in the UN in 1947. They were under the benevolent occupation and administration of the British under the LoN Mandate for Palestine. The Arab states made representations on their behalf.

        C)The point you’re trying and failing to make, is entirely irrelevant to Israel’s proclaimed and Internationally recognized sovereign extent and Israel’s illegal ‘facts on the ground’ colonization efforts in territories the Israel Government itself said on the 22nd May 1948, were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

        D) What was never proclaimed nor recognized as Israeli http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf and what has never been legally annexed to Israel, is quite simply NOT Israeli. ( Including Jerusalem! http://wp.me/pDB7k-W8 )

      • seafoid
        seafoid on December 30, 2014, 1:03 pm

        @ citizen
        1948? What a coincidence, that’s when Israelis were invented too! –

        and the term Palestinian was only invented in 1961.I read it in the Jpost. Poor Yonah had a Zionist education so there are huge gaps in his knowledge. I blame the parents.
        He probably grew up thinking Israeli chocolate was haute cuisine but was unfortunately unable to pronounce cuisine since it doesn’t have any of those German rs.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 31, 2014, 6:04 pm

        Once again, and for the umpteenth time, thanks, “talknic”!
        Point “b” explains a lot.

  20. Mooser
    Mooser on December 27, 2014, 6:25 pm

    I am curious as to why you choose 1905 as the moment of Zionism’s full self definition.”

    Right you are Yonah! We should pick a later date, give Zionism a chance to go into action, and face the reality of what it was trying to do, before it defined itself. So yes, let us look for Zionism’s full self-definition a bit later, by all means!

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba on December 30, 2014, 6:30 am

      @Bornajoo
      Thank you for your comment, Bornajoo. I was 13 years old at the time ,and at that age you are much more resilient and adjust more easily. My parents shielded us …as they both worked very hard to educate and impress upon us that who we are no one can take away . Over the years my parents rebuilt a life for us in Lebanon . Being angry over the grave Injustice is true and right . Bitterness is what we have to avoid …that is the poison that destroys from within. We were lucky that we didn’t end up in the camps of despair!

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on December 30, 2014, 8:08 am

        @Bintbiba
        Yes I know that you hold no bitterness at all which is an amazing quality I fear I could not possess under the same circumstances. And yes you did avoid the further hell and suffering of the camps.

        And I wonder just how these zionists can just ignore the horrid and unjustifiable consequences of their actions?  Instead of even trying to make amends they continue to slaughter, murder, steal, dehumanise and demean the very same people they robbed and disenfranchised in the first place.

      • seafoid
        seafoid on December 30, 2014, 12:47 pm

        “as they both worked very hard to educate and impress upon us that who we are no one can take away – ”

        So true and they sound like wonderful parents. But as we say in Ireland, where would you leave it (behind), Bintbiba ? It has to come from somewhere, such class as yours.

        And look at all the lost Israeli parents who pass on the virus of hatred to their kids.

        Amira Hass has written about the influence of her parents on who she became. Seeing beyond the bullshit.
        And al Fink al kabeer of course…

        “precisely because of the lessons they taught me and my 2 siblings”….

        and this

        It’s a secret, how not to turn your kids into assholes. Apparently unavailable in Hebrew

  21. ramzijaber
    ramzijaber on December 28, 2014, 1:30 pm

    Palestinians should pay 7 million israeli-jews to leave Palestine so they go back to where they came from.

    • just
      just on December 30, 2014, 9:15 am

      Ramzi, Bintbiba, Zofia, adele, Annie, Mooser, seafoid and Bornajoo have figured it out.

      Many thanks to all.

      • Citizen
        Citizen on December 30, 2014, 9:25 am

        Palestinians should pay 7 million Israeli Jews to go back to where they came from? So the majority unemployed and underage Palestinian population should pay reparations to those who took their land?

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba on December 30, 2014, 11:30 am

      Bornajoo….. hence the anger. ! I seem to get angrier as old age sets in and I feel i won’t be able to run and demonstrate as I did in Beirut 1982, while cowering under the tons of bombs lobbed at us in West Beirut from the tanks and 12 hour long air raids with never-ending night flairs filling the skies till dawn , and bombs raining down . We know what Israel is capable of; that’s why Gaza was such a trauma for us . We also had nowhere to run.
      Anger and rage, yes, but not the poison that decorates the face of someone like ‘der Feiglin ‘ !!.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on December 30, 2014, 12:39 pm

        Bintbiba
        Lebanon 1982. What a frightening and horrific experience. I’m afraid my brother was one of those who were lobbing the bombs on you. I apologise on his behalf and he would apologise too if he knew you. He’s better now, fully recovered and back to being a normal human. He was incredibly brainwashed those days but as soon as he managed to finally get away he did so and these days wants absolutely nothing to do with the place. He saw and also did terrible things there which he is very sorry for.

        Today his opinion is that Israel is the most vile and evil disgraceful country in the “developed” world. I think he tried to renounce his citizenship but he still hasn’t succeeded after all these years. Apparently they make it extremely difficult and it’s down to their discretion

        I won’t say that I understand the real depth of your anger because that would be lying. I’m angry too but for different reasons.

        You have every right to be very, very angry

      • seafoid
        seafoid on December 30, 2014, 12:56 pm

        Bornajoo

        Did your brother have to go through therapy after what he saw ?

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on December 30, 2014, 1:29 pm

        Seafoid
        Maybe he should have. Without going into too many of his personal details, let’s just say that he had a very unstable and troubled few years after he got back. But then he met a Brazilian lady and they went off to live in Portugal and have been living happily over there for over 25 years. He didn’t speak about those times until many years later

        When he stupidly volunteered back in 1981 he had absolutely no idea Sharon was going to invade Lebanon. He ended up in a horror show and I mean right in the middle of it as a front line Golani soldier.

        What always comes across in his stories is just how much absolute lethal power is handed to a bunch of immature kids who then are left to decide life and death. It’s very scary stuff and then there are the inevitable mental repercussions

        He should have had the therapy before he volunteered!

      • seafoid
        seafoid on December 30, 2014, 1:36 pm

        Bornajoo

        It must be awful for people who think a bit to be sent to kill for Judaism.
        Your poor brother. and all the people he helped kill. For what ?

        someone upthread asked what extra land Israel would seek if it managed to remove the Palestinians. Even if they went to Baghdad they wouldn’t be secure. They’ll never have that security they crave.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on December 30, 2014, 2:43 pm

        Seafoid
        Insecurity based on historical trauma mixed in with an evil ideology. That’s a terrible cocktail to inflict on anyone. The poor Palestinians really got the short straw when they were inflicted with this mob.

      • seafoid
        seafoid on December 30, 2014, 3:37 pm

        Bornajoo

        Running a society on the hatred/trauma setting is not healthy, even if it does win land in the short term.

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba on December 30, 2014, 5:34 pm

      seafoid & Bornajoo… I’m overwhelmed by your kind words.
      My personal experiences are trifling compared to the undescribable tragedies lived by the people in the camps and in Gaza : the ‘refugees’ ( so called,- pace Ms Caroline Glick!!!).
      Being witness to the wonder that is Mondoweiss is so enriching and informative., as well as uplifting.
      The great recent contributions from Zofia are so interesting. I shall spend the next months looking up the information she so generously provides.
      All my best wishes to all for 2015 !

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on December 30, 2014, 7:13 pm

        And very best wishes to you for 2015 Bintbiba!

  22. travellerh
    travellerh on December 29, 2014, 6:48 pm

    Suppose the Zionists are indeed successful in having their way and annexing the West Bank. Where would they then turn their energies to? What would their impact be on the rest of the world with no more land-grabbing fantasies?

  23. Citizen
    Citizen on December 30, 2014, 8:57 am

    @ Mooser
    Yes, you’re right, pretty recently the high court of Israel declined to recognize its Jewish citizens as “Israelis.” If memory serves, they felt that would lessen the character of the state as a “Jewish” state, equal rights would be lurking around the corner.

    As to Christian denominations in USA having a top-down/administrative or democratic process to reject Christian Zionism as heresy–some do. But it appears the garden variety of American Christian has very little to arm him or herself with against the rain of politically active Christian Zionists, as was discussed on this blog: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/01/the-evangelist-lobby

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 31, 2014, 6:10 pm

      “If memory serves, they felt that would lessen the character of the state as a “Jewish” state, equal rights would be lurking around the corner.”

      Gee another way of saying that, as far as I can see, is that the poor bastards go all the way to the Jewish State, and never get religious freedom. The right to not have your civil rights and status be contingent on religious identification. Funny.

  24. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride on December 30, 2014, 9:35 am

    Mooser,

    Many progressive anti-Zionists are trying to obstruct the conversation about the vital and organic connections between Judaism and Zionism because they fear that it will fan the flames of generalized antisemitism around the world.

    They oppose Zionism but they refuse to directly challenge the most powerful institutions and traditions empowering Zionism. Their self-contradictions are as conspicuous as those of liberal Zionists.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on December 30, 2014, 3:51 pm

      “the vital and organic connections between Judaism and Zionism”

      Gosh, you are going to claim Zionism is in our DNA (“vital and organic connections”)? I just don’t see what you can expect us poor, genetically challenged Jews to do about it, given that it is an intrinsic part of our very essence. Somebody is just going to have to take us in hand, and help us live long and prosper. Who should it be?

  25. Mooser
    Mooser on December 30, 2014, 11:32 am

    “They oppose Zionism but they refuse to directly challenge the most powerful institutions and traditions empowering Zionism. Their self-contradictions are as conspicuous as those of liberal Zionists.”

    Too bad, isn’t it?

    • Citizen
      Citizen on December 30, 2014, 11:40 am

      Well, yeah Mooser. So let’s delineate who exactly it’s “too bad” for–I submit, too bad for both US and Israel in the long run to come. How about you?

  26. Mooser
    Mooser on December 30, 2014, 11:38 am

    “They oppose Zionism but they refuse to directly challenge the most powerful institutions and traditions empowering Zionism.”

    “the most powerful institutions and traditions empowering Zionism”? Why that would be the Jews, wouldn’t it, and Judaism, and even Jewishness. Okay, you are right! What do you think should be done about it? Sean, you can’t expect us to reform ourselves, with all this corruption and bad religion at the very core of our existence!
    So if we Jews are not going to reform ourselves, what should be done?

    • Citizen
      Citizen on December 30, 2014, 11:42 am

      Mooser, what do you think should be done? David Duke was banished to the far fringes of US social acceptance. Is there a lesson there?

    • seanmcbride
      seanmcbride on December 30, 2014, 11:57 am

      Mooser,

      “So if we Jews are not going to reform ourselves, what should be done?”

      I have more faith in Jewish civilization than you do — it has reformed itself many times in the past and is capable of doing so in the future. It is capable of endless self-criticism and self-correction — positive traits that I associate with “Jewishness.”

      Non-Jews may make positive contributions to this process of reform — but only if they if they approach the subject with intellectual honesty and civility. Clearly some non-Jewish anti-Zionists have crossed the line into classical hardcore antisemitism — they are trying to box “the Jews” into a corner. The objective here should be to provide Jews with every opportunity to escape from the box (coffin?) that many zealots (both Jews and non-Jews) are building for them — while protecting whatever is valuable in the Jewish tradition.

      And Jews are not a special case: clearly all other ideological movements (including Christianity, Islam and even secular humanism) are under a perpetual obligation to reform and evolve based on learning from past experience. Personally, I try to keep evolving every day — endlessly revising my views in light of new experience and knowledge.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on December 31, 2014, 6:15 pm

        “positive traits that I associate with “Jewishness.”

        “Jewishness”? What’s that? And why the quote marks?

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on December 31, 2014, 6:33 pm

        Mooser,

        Why the quote marks around “Jewishness”? — because as a rule I like to see the world as collections of individuals, not as collections of representatives of ethnic groups. I rarely refer to “Irishness” or “Swedishness” or “Arabness” or whatever — it leads to stereotypical and lazy thinking.

      • annie
        annie on December 31, 2014, 7:22 pm

        The objective here should be to provide Jews with every opportunity to escape from the box (coffin?) that many zealots (both Jews and non-Jews) are building for them …. as a rule I like to see the world as collections of individuals, not as collections of representatives of ethnic groups.

        well you’ve broken your rule then. you certainly do not appear to provide Jews with every opportunity to escape from the box by continuing to invoke those who profess to be “jewish leaders” knowing very well those leaders do not speak for a varied community. i’d like to remind you (AGAIN) that jewish leaders of jewish groups who continually invoke the whole community when making public announcements; case in point:

        Saying something over and over again doesn’t make it true. The Bay Area JCRC, and local offices of the ADL and the AJC, are not synonymous with the “Bay Area Jewish Community.” In fact, while the Jewish Community Relations Council claims to represent Bay Area Jews, they won’t release the number or names of groups they represent. That certainly makes one wonder if the number is embarrassingly small. And it’s likely shrinking. There is no shortage of Jews around here, from a wide political spectrum, who would be appalled to be associated with an attack on a Muslim group for using a word that Israeli officials use regularly. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/05/francisco-apartheid-backlash#sthash.VH3YtGYy.dpuf

        there are “collections of individuals” you repeatedly ignore whereas you continually empower the concept the leaders in these communities represent all the jews. those leaders would be the first to agree with you btw! if you, “as a rule” do not see the world as “collections of representatives” of ethnic groups, why pray tell do you keep seeing these jewish leaders as representing judaism instead of seeing jews as individual agents?

        and if ” “Irishness” or “Swedishness” or “Arabness” … leads to stereotypical and lazy thinking.” then why are you making an exception for jewishness by putting quotemarks around it?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 1, 2015, 11:29 am

        ” you repeatedly ignore whereas you continually empower the concept the leaders in these communities represent all the jews”

        And he never ever specifies the process, the mechanism, by which this “Jewishness” (his word, or should it have double-double quotes?) is inculcated. There isn’t even a Jewish Catechism, there is no universal Jewish education, Jews live all over the world under many, many different conditions. The religion is split into denominations which don’t communicate very well.

        “And Jews are not a special case: clearly all other ideological movements” Now Judaism is an “ideological movement” ? Egg-salad-sandwich? This is a fancy souffle!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 1, 2015, 11:39 am

        “I have more faith in Jewish civilization than you do”

        Why, isn’t that white of you!
        But I don’t think it’s true, if we examine the contention.
        Couldn’t it be fairly said that I don’t think and have said many times, that “Jewish civilization” (OFCSGMAFB!) whatever it’s deficiencies, doesn’t need a fucking thing from “seanmcbride”?

        I have at least that much faith in it. You don’t seem to.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on January 1, 2015, 6:56 pm

        Mooser,

        I am pursuing this particular thread here —

        https://friendfeed.com/mondoweiss-on-friendfeed/f62bdba4/comment-to-mooser-on-relations-between-jews-and

        — because I can post my comments there with no delays:

        Feel free to respond there if you wish.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 3, 2015, 12:47 pm

        “Feel free to respond there if you wish.”

        Yeah, sure. Be there soon. Make sure to hold your breath while you wait.

  27. Mooser
    Mooser on January 1, 2015, 11:12 am

    Lazy? Annie, it takes a lot of work to get an egg-salad-sandwich out of a chicken.

    “Irishness” or “Swedishness” or “Arabness” ? Well, we’re getting closer, somebody just laid an egg.

    Sometimes I wonder if some of Sean’s best friends are Jewish.

    Thanks, Annie, I don’t know where you get the patience.

  28. piotr
    piotr on January 1, 2015, 8:38 pm

    Feiglin lost Likud primaries and will get 27-th spot on the list (projected to win 24 seats). Quite possibly, his fantastic plans contributed. First, while many Likudniks would wish to remove Palestinians from Palestine, they have some idea about practical limitations. Second, Feiglin promised to give Palestinians cash, and hover noble the motivation ma be (from Revisionist Zionist perspective), that could not be popular.

    It reminds me how years ago Republicans leaders were promoting privatization and shrinking of Social Security. They figured a “cunning” argument that the current Social Security is unfair to Blacks on the account of their shorter life expectancy. That really finished those plans: Blacks were not convinced, while the polls in places like Alabama were strongly against. Look: the only program of the government that is fair/favorable to Whites, and they want to cut it!

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