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What I Was Told: Arabs hate Jews

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Liberal Jewish Upbringing

Growing up in Upstate New York in a progressive Reform Jewish family, I absorbed the understanding that Arabs hate Jews.  In fact, I was told they would really prefer to have all Jews pushed into the sea, never to be bothered with again.  I am not exactly sure where I heard this.  I do not recall a specific individual informing me of this accepted truth or hearing it in my weekly Hebrew school classes or Shabbat services at temple.

Nonetheless, it was a part of me.  It was a part of what constituted the challenge of being Jewish in this day and age.  Indeed, not only this day and age.  Jewish history is rife with Jews encountering irrational urges to eradicate or drive away, most indelible of these being in Nazi Germany.  Thus, the understanding was passed to me that throughout history, it is a Jew’s lot in life to be on the receiving end of hatred and, right now, it is the Arabs in particular who possess the fierce animus toward Jews.

Yikes, the Middle East

You can then imagine my discomfort upon approaching the Turkish-Syria border: what if the Arabs on the other side were to discover my heritage?  It won’t be that difficult.  I kind of look the part of the ‘classic Jewess’: dark kinky-curly hair, blue eyes, swarthy skin tone, ‘Jew-nose’…what else could I be?

In my mid-20’s I participated in a global peace pilgrimage, starting in Los Angeles, CA and ending in Hiroshima, Japan.  We mostly walked but at times skirted oceans and some landmasses by plane, boat, or, as in the case with Turkey and the Middle East, hitchhiking.  We spent two weeks crossing Turkey, completely enthralled with its stunning and breathtaking landscape.

Nearing the border, I noticed that I began to feel a little nervous about my Jewishness because when encountering others it was customary to exchange identifying particulars.  The same occurs when meeting people in the US.  We like learning about each other: what kind of work do you do?; are you single, married, divorced, etc.?; where does your family originate from (what is your ethnic origin)?, and so on. This is true wherever one goes.  We desire to know how to categorize this individual standing before us.  Questions such as these were asked almost every day in each town and village throughout the journey.

Enemy Territory

As our little band of hearty travelers  drew closer to the Syrian border, I recall the internal dialogue that began occupying my mental space in a desperate attempt to help prepare for these questions once I stepped into ‘enemy territory’.

On one hand, I was comforted with having had literally thousands of encounters along the way, nearly all of them exemplifying basic truths about humanity: people are good; people are kind; people are caring for strangers; people are curious.  That is not to say that exceptions do not exist, as we all know that they do.  What my experience told me at that point (and to date) is that people typically do not hate others just because of differing beliefs or ethnic origins.  This, of course, bolstered my confidence.

On the other hand, I could not shake nor dismiss the warnings I had integrated as a child.  In fact, the beliefs that I held were so deeply ingrained that I considered them ‘truth’, not ‘opinion’ or something to be argued; they were the way things are.

Back and forth I went: “Could people all of a sudden turn dark and ugly just ten-miles over the border?”  Impossible to imagine.  Nonetheless, I could not deny that I experienced anxiousness at the prospect of facing these questions.  What might happen when they discovered my ethnic origins?

In the Grips of Fear

In the lovely seaside town of Latakya I began interacting with everyday Syrians who were nothing like I had imagined them to be.  I expected dark, brooding, a little sinister, and ‘up to no good’.  To my surprise, they were, of course, nothing of the sort and, in fact, the complete opposite.  Kindness radiated from person after person.  We could hardly walk down a single block without being stopped a dozen times and invited for a (ridiculously sweet) cup of tea.

Delicious shared meal in Latakya, Syria. (Photo: Essrea Cherin)

Delicious shared meal in Latakya, Syria. (Photo: Essrea Cherin)

We had certainly experienced incredible kindness and friendliness in pretty much every country we had walked through (some countries like Bulgaria, less so, and others like Serbia, more so), but nothing could have prepared us for what we encountered in Syria.  They were ‘off the charts’ in friendliness.  The fear in my heart began, ever so slightly, to slacken its grip.

Without even realizing, until that moment I had been holding tightly to an impression about a people with whom I previously had no contact.  When face to face with the real live version, the perception within my mind had no choice but to fade away, replaced by this much more accurate, vibrant and lustrous version.

Disclosure

Even while my heart was opening to the people who offered nothing but warmth, I retained some caution because I had not yet revealed to them my ethnic heritage.  I anxiously hoped the question would not arise so that I would not be forced into the uncomfortable position of having to choose between lying and risking putting a damper on the hospitality I was enjoying.

Of course it was only a matter of time before the question arose since everyone wanted to practice their English and engage in conversation, asking all the questions they could assemble with the English they had mastered.

I remember the first time.  My mind fully muddled: lie or tell the truth, I could see the value of both options.  Knowing that I had to respond, I defaulted to honesty, and watched carefully how the person took this information.

Growing up Jewish, I had been taught (via actions more than words) how important it is to pay close attention to non-verbal cues.  Jews have endured abrupt changes of heart throughout their history (at least that was what I gleaned from stories at pretty much every Jewish holiday), and have, over the centuries, become quite adept at reading moods, noticing subtle non-verbal cues, and having highly tuned ‘antennae’ for danger, so as to not be caught by surprise next time their standing should take an unanticipated nose-dive, as it has so many times before.

Transformation

My highly tuned sensors detected nothing.  Not a thing.  In fact, my new-found friend quickly moved on to the next in the series of ‘getting-to-know-you’ questions.  Phew!  My heart eased further, as the fear melted.

Graffiti on home in Damascus. (Photo: Essrea Cherin)

Graffiti on home in Damascus. (Photo: Essrea Cherin)

In dozens of interactions throughout Syria, Jordan, the West Bank (Palestine), Egypt and Pakistan, all places that are Arab and/or Muslim and presumably have antipathy toward Jews, unsurpassed hospitality and kindness reinforced these initial impressions.

Looking back on time in the Middle East, I recognize this as a transformational period.  I now understand quite viscerally how fear can distort one’s view of the world.  Fortunately, I had the opportunity to experience Arab culture for myself and have replaced mental images of monsters with real live people.   Until that experience, I was unaware of the magnitude of the fear I had been clinging to.  What a relief to let it go.  Engaging with Syrians, and all Arabs, as one individual to another, I discovered that humans are humans everywhere one goes; it is as simple as that.

Beautiful children of Beit Sahour, West Bank, Palestine. (Photo: Essrea Cherin)

Beautiful children of Beit Sahour, West Bank, Palestine. (Photo: Essrea Cherin)

Essrea Cherin

Essrea Cherin is a conflict management coach with Embracing Conflict and is the chair and co-founder of the Boulder-Nablus Sister City Project.

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183 Responses

  1. annie on June 3, 2015, 10:34 am

    what a beautiful thing to read, a beautiful way to start my day. thank you so much Essrea Cherin.

    • JLewisDickerson on June 3, 2015, 10:42 am

      I concur!

    • JWalters on June 3, 2015, 7:17 pm

      Beautiful indeed. Hopefully the beauty of the future.

    • Mayhem on June 7, 2015, 8:50 pm

      An empty feel-good piece of de-politicised nothing. Not one concrete specific statement – writing totally oblivious to reality. What was her mission in Syria? No doubt the Syrian people would welcome do-gooders who don’t threaten them. Foreign visitors to their miserable country must be a rarity, a welcome sight in their blighted war-torn country.

  2. annie on June 3, 2015, 10:39 am

    re: “Liberal Jewish Upbringing” — it seems counter intuitive, a liberal teaching their children that people hate them.

    • Steve Grover on June 3, 2015, 11:39 am

      I was never taught that anyone hated me. I read newspapers from Syria, Egypt, Iraq (during the Saddam Hussein regime), Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and post revolution Iran. That was how I came to the conclusion.

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 12:07 pm

        “I was never taught that anyone hated me. I read newspapers from Syria, Egypt, Iraq (during the Saddam Hussein regime), Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and post revolution Iran. That was how I came to the conclusion.”

        And now, “Grober” will sing “Thanks For the MEMRI’s”!!

      • Kris on June 3, 2015, 12:39 pm

        Do they hate you, or all Jews, or Israel?

        And why?

      • talknic on June 3, 2015, 1:44 pm

        @ Steve Grover June 3, 2015, 11:39 am

        Self taught. WOW!

        Say, how about a few quotes …

        I wonder why Iran’s remaining Jews chose to remain rather than accept fully funded immigration to Israel

      • Steve Grover on June 3, 2015, 1:52 pm

        @Talkinc
        You sez, “I wonder why Iran’s remaining Jews chose to remain rather than accept fully funded immigration to Israel”
        Fear of being charged with being spies for the “Zionist Entity” and then swingin’ from them hangin’ cranes.

      • catalan on June 3, 2015, 2:24 pm

        “I wonder why Iran’s remaining Jews chose to remain rather than accept fully funded immigration to Israel – ” talknic
        More than 75 percent did leave though which says a lot. In Bulgaria, about 80 to 90 per cent left for Israel in 1948. The ones who stayed did so for different reasons. Some were just too inert, others believed in building communism. Still others had too many friends and relatives that they couldn’t leave. It’s because you see things on black and white that you are making conclusions about the Jews of Iran.

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 2:33 pm

        “Fear of being charged with being spies for the “Zionist Entity” and then swingin’ from them hangin’ cranes.”

        “Grober”, lantzmann mine, really, you do a lot better if you don’t post while drinking.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 2:58 pm

        “Thanks For the MEMRI’s”!!

        you crack me mooser! steve probably never had time to read memri, what with reading “newspapers from Syria, Egypt, Iraq (during the Saddam Hussein regime), Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and post revolution Iran” and mondoweiss, he’s too busy.

        catalan, “More than 75 percent did leave though which says a lot.”

        what does it say? (without “making conclusions” of course).

      • Steve Grover on June 3, 2015, 3:44 pm

        @Mooser,
        Didn’t need Memri. The newspapers were read in Arabic at the Northwestern University library. Not to take away from the excellent job that Memri does. Just to sober you up a bit on them Hangin’ Cranes…Looks like a slow day…
        http://deathpenaltynews.blogspot.com/2015/06/three-executions-in-iran-one-hanged-in.html?m=1

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 4:44 pm

        steve, what’s this got to do w/the conversation? and why stop at iran. i read somewhere saudi arabia executed 23 people last month. and they cut heads off publicly in the middle of town: http://www.newsweek.com/2014/10/24/when-it-comes-beheadings-isis-has-nothing-over-saudi-arabia-277385.html i hear SA is planning on executing the top shia cleric in the country for attending a protest. and they are our ally!

        and what about texas? we execute people here too. your link goes to a story about the execution of drug dealers, it’s not related to our discussion at all. when was the last time iran executed a jewish citizen? that would be on topic at least.

      • just on June 3, 2015, 3:54 pm

        I think it’s impressive that he can read both Arabic and Farsi, Annie!

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 4:20 pm

        very impressive just

      • Steve Grover on June 3, 2015, 3:54 pm

        Annie sez:
        “steve probably never had time to read memri, what with reading “newspapers from Syria, Egypt, Iraq (during the Saddam Hussein regime), Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and post revolution Iran” and mondoweiss, he’s too busy.”

        Steve sez:
        Since, the Illinois House of Representatives passed SB 1761 unanimously, reading Mondoweiss is a waste of time. Nothing ever passes unanimously. I guess I need a laugh from time to time.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 4:24 pm

        Since, the Illinois House of Representatives passed SB 1761 unanimously, reading Mondoweiss is a waste of time. Nothing ever passes unanimously.

        so steve, why do you think there is an israel lobby? given our representatives all support the israeli government — what’s the point? lobby’s generally exist when there’s strong opposition. so either there’s opposition that goes completely unrepresented in the halls of congress or the american people support everything the israeli gov wants. what’s your take on that?

      • Walid on June 3, 2015, 4:59 pm

        “I wonder why Iran’s remaining Jews chose to remain rather than accept fully funded immigration to Israel ” (talknic)

        What to say about the Jews of Lebanon that in general refused to go to Israel or to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise? Lebanon’s Jewish population actually kept growing during about 20 years after the creation of Israel. This Jewish hating narrative surely did not apply to the Arabs of Lebanon.

        Kirsten Schulz wrote:

        “… In 1951, during the Passover celebration, the president of the Jewish community Joseph Attie held a reception at Beirut’s Magen Avraham synagogue which was attended by Lebanese Prime Minister Sami as-Solh, Abdallah Yafi, Rachid Beydoun, Joseph Chader, Habib Abi Chahla, Charles Helou, Pierre Gemayel and the Maronite Archbishop of Beirut,”

        Sure didn’t sound like they hated the Jews in Lebanon.

      • Steve Grover on June 3, 2015, 5:16 pm

        @Annie,
        Talkinc replied to me by asking me why Jews remain in Iran. What brought up Iranian executions is my belief that if Iranian Jews express a desire to go to Israel that they would gravely endanger themselves and their families. The execution rate in Saudi Arabia is increasing but not near Iran’s because their execution rate is also increasing. Texas by comparison is in the Little Leagues by comparison and their execution rate has been decreasing.
        As far as Jews being executed in Iran, I can’t say how many have been executed. I do know that 2 relatives of members of the Iranian Hebrew Congregation in Skokie have been executed in Iran.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 5:43 pm

        What brought up Iranian executions is my belief that if Iranian Jews express a desire to go to Israel that they would gravely endanger themselves and their families.

        iow, you’re implying iran would execute someone for trying to immigrate. there must be some data you can point to that relates to this, no? because an article on executions for drug trafficing doesn’t really suffice.

        and just out of curiosity do you believe mossad would ever employ an iranian jew to spy for israel? or is that simply incomprehensible to you.

      • just on June 3, 2015, 5:19 pm

        Thanks, Walid. They didn’t “hate” Jews in Afghanistan, either:

        …”Records of a Jewish population in Afghanistan go back to the 7th century.[citation needed]

        In 2011, so-called Afghan Geniza, an 11th-century collection of manuscript fragments in Hebrew, Aramaic, Judeo-Arabic and Judeo-Persian was found in Taliban caves in Afghanistan. Some 29 pages from the collection were bought by the National Library of Israel in 2013.[3]

        By 1948, over 5,000 Jews existed in Afghanistan, and after they were allowed to emigrate in 1951, most of them moved to Israel and the United States.[1] Afghanistan was the only Muslim country that allowed Jewish families to emigrate without revoking their citizenship first. Afghan Jews left the country en masse in the 1960s, their exile to New York and Tel Aviv was motivated by a search for a better life but not because of religious persecution.”…

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Afghanistan

      • RoHa on June 3, 2015, 7:46 pm

        “we execute people here too.”

        Here on Mondoweiss?
        I’m going to be very polite to you from now on, Annie. No more digs at your inability to use the shift key.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 8:42 pm

        very funny RoHa! your heads not on the chopping block last i heard.

      • talknic on June 3, 2015, 11:01 pm

        @ Steve Grover “Fear of being charged with being spies for the “Zionist Entity” and then swingin’ from them hangin’ cranes”

        A) Iranians aren’t Arabs.
        B) Is there an extradition treaty between Israel and Iran? WOW! I wonder if Israel and Iran know?
        C) If they left they wouldn’t be in Iran to be charged let alone hung.
        D) Jews from Iran can visit Israel thru Turkey ( You’d have to be really naive to think the Iranian authorities don’t know they’ve visited Israel )

        @ catalan “More than 75 percent did leave though which says a lot”

        Yeh, it says you’re stupid .. the time period was post revolution Iran”

        ” In Bulgaria, about 80 to 90 per cent left for Israel in 1948 ….. “

        Uh huh. Bulgarian’s are Arabs … right? You jerks sure know how to make complete idiots of yourselves!

        “It’s because you see things on black and white that you are making conclusions about the Jews of Iran”

        No you stupid person, it’s because the remaining 25,000 or so Jews in Iran refused to leave Iran

      • talknic on June 3, 2015, 11:12 pm

        @ Steve Grover June 3, 2015, 5:16 pm

        “What brought up Iranian executions is my belief that if Iranian Jews express a desire to go to Israel that they would gravely endanger themselves and their families.”

        Example? Thx … I’ll wait…

        “The execution rate in Saudi Arabia is increasing but not near Iran’s because their execution rate is also increasing. Texas by comparison is in the Little Leagues by comparison and their execution rate has been decreasing.”

        Statistics please …. thx … I’ll wait…

        “As far as Jews being executed in Iran, I can’t say how many have been executed. I do know that 2 relatives of members of the Iranian Hebrew Congregation in Skokie have been executed in Iran”

        Executed for what? Being Jews? Visiting Israel? Treason? Spying?

      • Steve Grover on June 3, 2015, 11:34 pm

        @Annie
        You said
        iow, you’re implying iran would execute someone for trying to immigrate. there must be some data you can point to that relate to this, no? because an article on executions for drug trafficing doesn’t really suffice.

        and just out of curiosity do you believe mossad would ever employ an iranian jew to spy for israel? or is that simply incomprehensible to you.”
        I think you mean trying to emigrate. I believe it is true if an Iranian wanted to emigrate to Israel, that they would face the possibility of execution and other severe consequences. I go to the Iranian Hebrew Congregation at least once a month. They always tell me how the Jews in Iran are in constant danger. If they speak about Israel there is severe consequences. They have told me that 2 relatives of congregants have been executed. Also, I think the. Mossad is unlikely to contact Jews in Iran because of the danger it would cause in light of the heavy surveillance.

      • annie on June 4, 2015, 9:04 pm

        I think you mean trying to emigrate. I believe it is true if an Iranian wanted to emigrate to Israel, , that they would face the possibility of execution….

        no i meant immigrate [to israel](i wrote “you’re implying iran would execute someone for trying to immigrate.”) however i could have written ’emigrate from iran to israel’, and your grammar is incorrect:

        http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000210.htm

        Emigrate or Immigrate?
        The prefix e- (or ex-) usually means “out of” or “from.” The prefix im- (or in-) often means “in” or “into.”

        Therefore, emigrate means “to move out of” and immigrate means “to move into.”

        Correct: They emigrated from Rwanda and immigrated to Gabon.

        here’s another:

        http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/16781/whats-the-difference-in-meaning-between-emigrate-and-immigrate

        The difference is fairly subtle

        To Emigrate is to leave one country to settle in another. (The focus is on the original country)
        To Immigrate is to come to a new country to live. (The focus is on the new country)

        therefore, it is incorrect to say “emigrate to”, one “emigrates from”.

        They have told me that 2 relatives of congregants have been executed.

        how irrelevant. there have been 17 jews executed in iran since 67. that is a very small number in relation to the amount of executions in iran since ’67. if 2 people were executed in iran in ’67 and each of them had 100 relatives how many relatives would they have 50 years later? enough to have 2 relatives in 100 synagogues in the US! aside from what you believe, is there even one news story anywhere from anytime, or one wiki page alleging iran executed an iranian jew for wanting to immigrate to israel? a yeah or nay will do.

        Mossad is unlikely to contact Jews in Iran because of the danger it would cause in light of the heavy surveillance.

        if i am not mistaken, from recollection, i think there’s documentation iran has executed an iranian jew who moved to israel and then came back and spied on iran. so that’s one of the 17, at least. of all the iranian jews who have attempted to immigrate to israel (and according to catalan that is the majority of them) what percentage never made it because they were executed? any? otherwise your ‘belief’ is rather groundless it would appear. spying perhaps, but immigrating?

      • catalan on June 4, 2015, 10:58 am

        “Fact is, they could have chosen to immigrate and they can still immigrate” talknic
        75 percent of Iranian Jews emigrated. 25 percent stayed. To talknic, that’s a sign how great Iran is.
        Let’s try this. If 80 million Russians leave out of 120 million, would that prove how great Russia is? Because some stayed? Or, if 260 million Americans left, would that be a sign that America is great, because some stayed?
        Iran is a religious authoritian country where Facebook is deemed a threat to national security. Sure, some people stay, but so what? It still is horrible.

      • talknic on June 4, 2015, 2:20 pm

        @ catalan June 4, 2015, 10:58 am

        “75 percent of Iranian Jews emigrated. 25 percent stayed. To talknic, that’s a sign how great Iran is”

        If you say so pal. I haven’t. What I’ve written is still there for all to see. Nothing about how great Iran is. Try some other bullsh*t, I’m sure you have plenty

        “Let’s try this. If 80 million Russians leave out of 120 million, would that prove how great Russia is? Because some stayed? Or, if 260 million Americans left, would that be a sign that America is great, because some stayed?”

        No. Try something else.

        “Iran is a religious authoritian country where Facebook is deemed a threat to national security. Sure, some people stay, but so what? It still is horrible.”

        Despite all Iran’s bad points some 25,000 Iranian Jews choose to stay there. Facts are to you and your kind are like holy water to Nosferatu

      • talknic on June 4, 2015, 2:30 pm

        @ Steve Grover June 3, 2015, 11:34 pm

        ” I believe it is true if an Iranian wanted to emigrate to Israel, that they would face the possibility of execution and other severe consequences”

        Yet they go to Israel via Turkey. They could ask for asylum. Would Israel allow them to be extradited?

        ” I go to the Iranian Hebrew Congregation at least once a month.”

        Sure you do … Prove it.

        “They have told me that 2 relatives of congregants have been executed. “>

        For what?

        “Also, I think the. Mossad is unlikely to contact Jews in Iran because of the danger it would cause in light of the heavy surveillance”

        So they’d know if someone went to Israel, even if they went via Turkey

      • catalan on June 4, 2015, 3:05 pm

        “Despite all Iran’s bad points some 25,000 Iranian Jews choose to stay there – ”
        Despite America’s bad points some 40 million blacks choose to stay.
        Despite Israel’s bad points 1.5 million Arabs choose to stay.
        What of it? America is still a very racist country. Possibly so with Israel. And Iran is still run autocratically by a very old and possibly senile, certainly mentally unstable man with a scary beard.
        I myself was subjected to American hostility towards immigrants and foreigners. Then again, New Mexico is much more tolerant.
        But still, because I choose to stay it is Ok for Americans to be intolerant? What twisted logic.

      • annie on June 4, 2015, 9:27 pm

        Iran is still run autocratically by a very old and possibly senile, certainly mentally unstable man with a scary beard.

        lol! i can’t believe you just wrote that. i love the scary beard bit.

        75 percent of Iranian Jews emigrated. 25 percent stayed. To talknic, that’s a sign how great Iran is.

        you’re a dirty player catalan. you’ll make up anything. speaking of twisted logic, you’re the hasbrat twister queen.

      • talknic on June 4, 2015, 11:46 pm

        @ catalan

        // “Despite all Iran’s bad points some 25,000 Iranian Jews choose to stay there – ”//

        “Despite America’s bad points some 40 million blacks choose to stay.”

        Anyone offering to pay them to immigrate?

        “Despite Israel’s bad points 1.5 million Arabs choose to stay”

        A) Far far far more “Arabs” than you’ll ever admit

        By 1950 the population of Israel was estimated to be about 1,370,000

        There were approximately 156,000 non-Jewish Israeli Arabs who were not dispossessed within the borders of the territory proclaimed by the Israeli Government and recognized on the 15th May 1948 as Israeli and; there were some 500,000 Arab Jewish refugees from the Arab states

        That’s approximately 656,000 Arabs of a population of about 1,370,000

        656,000 of 1,370,000 is about 47% not including the non-Jewish Israeli Arabs who were dispossessed by 1950 and; not including the indigenous Arab Jews.

        Simple maths shows us the Arab population of Israel in 1948 was well in excess of 50%. A large number of Israeli Jews today are of Arabic descent.

        Arab DNA is deeply and inescapably embedded in the Israeli population

        B) by your inane meaning of “Arabs”, they’d be indigenous remnants from 1948 and their descendants. They’re living in their traditional homeland
        .
        “… Iran is still run autocratically by a very old and possibly senile, certainly mentally unstable man with a scary beard”

        Evidence of senility and mental instability … thx … I’ll wait. As for scary beard ask your mom for some warm milk before you go to bed, it helps induce natural production a calming mammalian neurohypophysial hormone, similar to breast feeding.

        “I myself was subjected to American hostility towards immigrants and foreigners. But still, because I choose to stay it is Ok for Americans to be intolerant?

        If you say so. I haven’t

        “What twisted logic”

        And all yours! WOW you’re such a clever little propagandist

        Bravo, keep up the good work, keep digging and be careful it doesn’t collapse while your down there

      • just on June 5, 2015, 12:10 am

        But, but, but talknic~ catalan is in finance and accounting!

        I guess that catalan is also a whiz in demographics.

        (a cat hole~ lol!)

      • oldgeezer on June 5, 2015, 2:00 am

        @catalan

        What is it about a beard that you find scary? Is this what you try to pass off as rational though?

        Please avoid listening to ZZTop. You will probably end up suffering from PTSD.

      • talknic on June 5, 2015, 4:42 am

        @ Steve Grover “Just to sober you up a bit on them Hangin’ Cranes…Looks like a slow day…
        link to http://www.deathpenaltynews.blogspot.com

        Rape and dealing smack. Don’t believe in the death penalty myself, however Iran is an Independent Sovereign State and has a right to pass whatever penalties it sees fit.

        Meanwhile, Israel in non-Israeli territories assassinates photographers, Palestinian children for allegedly throwing stones

      • Mayhem on June 7, 2015, 9:17 pm

        Skeptics should check out Kooshyar Karimi’s revealing memoir I Confess where he expounds on how he was tortured by the brutal Iranian regime that fears that every Jew could be a closet Zionist. He was Jewish (“If your Mum is a Jew, you are a Jew”), which in Iran made him a member of a tiny, reviled minority. “I grew up with this sense of being unclean.”
        As for Robbins shrill, ignorant mockery of the concept of a ““Liberal Jewish Upbringing” I look forward to her next propaganda piece about “Ahmed” with his liberal Muslim upbringing and his admiration for Jews (the perfect formula to bring any Muslim into disrepute in his own community).
        But wait! Is there some hope?
        This week I will attend a public lecture at a local university in Melbourne where Professor Mohammed S. Dajani Daoudi, a Jerusalem-born scholar and peace activist with two doctorate degrees, will speak.
        “He resigned from his posts at the university following the uproar resulting from leading 27 Palestinian students to Auschwitz in March 2014. This visit was part of a joint effort of three institutions—Friedrich Schiller University of Jena, Tel Aviv University, and Ben Gurion University of the Negev and Wasatia, an NGO founded by Dajani back in 2007 to promote moderation, tolerance, and justice. Dajani is the author of numerous books and in 2012 co-authored the only book in Arabic which deals with the Holocaust from a human perspective Holocaust Human Agony: Is there a way out of violence?

    • pabelmont on June 3, 2015, 11:53 am

      Annie — I disagree. Anybody should teach their kids that people hate them — but only if it is true.

      I believe, as this story suggests — please publish widely, with JVP etc. — that the story (that Arabs hate all Jews) is false, either a piece of pure hasbara (deliberate lies) or a bit of projection, because many Israeli Jews do seem to hate the Arabs (Palestinians) whose land etc. they have stolen, whom they have been deliberately and massively mistreating for last 67 years, and whom they need to see as hateful in order to ward off feelings of guilt.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 12:05 pm

        coun·ter·in·tu·i·tive
        ˌkoun(t)ərinˈt(y)o͞oədiv/
        adjective
        adjective: counter-intuitive
        contrary to intuition or to common-sense expectation (but often nevertheless true).

        pabelmont, counter intuitive doesn’t necessarily mean something isn’t true. perhaps it’s just my notion of the meaning of “liberal” vs non liberal. it was just my impression of the first 2 sentences, such a structured confined thought.

        I believe…. that the story is false …. because Israeli Jews do seem to hate the Arabs

        please explain. i don’t recall the author making claims about israeli feelings towards arabs. unless you’re referencing:

        basic truths about humanity: people are good; people are kind; people are caring for strangers; people are curious. That is not to say that exceptions do not exist, as we all know that they do. What my experience told me at that point (and to date) is that people typically do not hate others just because of differing beliefs or ethnic origins.

      • Kris on June 3, 2015, 12:34 pm

        Annie, pabelmont is agreeing that the story that Arabs hate all Jews is false.

        Pabelmont says also that the false story (that Arabs hate all Jews) is probably a “bit of projection” on the part of Israeli Jews. He is right; projection is an essential psychological defense mechanism in situations like Israel.

        Israeli Jews absolutely rely on projecting their own unacceptable impulses onto the Palestinians; otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to commit their ongoing crimes against humanity.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 1:55 pm

        thanks kris, i must have just read it wrong twice! but on a reread it was clear as a bell.

      • amigo on June 3, 2015, 2:52 pm

        “Annie — I disagree. Anybody should teach their kids that people hate them — but only if it is true. ” Pabelmont.

        When I was 11/12 my Father, (a product of victorian times and the resistance to British colonialism ). would arrange visits to cousins houses and we boys would entertain our elders by donning boxing gloves and proceed to beat the crap out of each other, all carried out within the Marquis of Queens- Bury rules.You must play by the rules . This was the method chosen to prepare us for manhood in case we ran into someone who hated us.

        I know I hated my larger cousins until I grew up and realised who , albeit unintentionally , created the hatred.

      • wondering jew on June 3, 2015, 10:00 pm

        talknic wrote: “I wonder why Iran’s remaining Jews chose to remain rather than accept fully funded immigration to Israel”.

        This is utter racist nonsense. When I hear a racist say, “Why do the blacks complain so much about America, let them move back to Africa, if they don’t like it here!” Would you react calmly to such a statement. Of course not. Iranian Jews (or a quarter of them) remained in Iran after the revolution. They’ve been living there for thousands of years. Of course their tendency is to stay. That says nothing about their conditions. It reflects only on the racism of the commentator.

      • oldgeezer on June 3, 2015, 11:58 pm

        @yonah

        “This is utter racist nonsense.”

        I can’t help but point out that you make what you consider to be utter racist comments about Israeli Arabs attributing their desire to their conditions when it comes to wanting to stay in Israel.

        You need some consistency in your logic but zionists never do logic. Their moral compass shifts faster than a wind vane in a vortex.

        http://mondoweiss.net/2011/01/when-livni-spoke-of-ethnic-transfer-abu-alaa-said-only-solution-is-binational-state-from-sea-to-river#comment-271355

      • talknic on June 4, 2015, 9:49 am

        @ yonah fredman June 3, 2015, 10:00 pm

        //talknic wrote: “I wonder why Iran’s remaining Jews chose to remain rather than accept fully funded immigration to Israel”.//

        “This is utter racist nonsense”

        It’s a fact. Facts are not racist. Fact is, they chose to stay. Fact is, they could have chosen to immigrate and they can still immigrate. Fact is, they chose not to then and they still choose not to!

        “When I hear a racist say, “Why do the blacks complain so much about America, let them move back to Africa, if they don’t like it here!” Would you react calmly to such a statement. Of course not.”

        Of course I wouldn’t. Your analogy is as idiotic as your claim that a fact is racist. I cannot find any instance at all where Black Americans were offered financial assistance of any kind to immigrate to Africa or any where else except …. oh …. Israel.

        “Iranian Jews (or a quarter of them) remained in Iran after the revolution. They’ve been living there for thousands of years. Of course their tendency is to stay. That says nothing about their conditions. It reflects only on the racism of the commentator”

        A) Those who chose to stay chose to stay despite the offers of a better life in Israel and the conditions in Iran and decades later they still choose to stay

        B) What racism?

        The harder you try, the deeper your smelly cat hole

      • annie on June 4, 2015, 10:08 am

        we boys would entertain our elders by donning boxing gloves and proceed to beat the crap out of each other, all carried out within the Marquis of Queens- Bury rules.Y – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/arabs-hate-jews/comment-page-1#comment-771907

        amigo, that sounds terrible!

    • Steve Grover on June 3, 2015, 4:05 pm

      @just,
      I never said I speak or read Arabic or Farsi.
      When I was an undergrad at Northwestern, I had a friend from Iraq who would read the Arabic papers and translate. The Farsi papers were translated when I would go to the Iranian Hebrew congregation in Skokie.

      • Mooser on June 5, 2015, 12:06 pm

        “When I was an undergrad at Northwestern, I had a friend from Iraq who would read the Arabic papers and translate.”

        ‘Dear Hasbarahouse Forum: I never thought anything like this would ever happen to me, but when I was an undergrad at Northwestern I had a friend from Iraq who would would read the Arabic papers and translate. Well, you won’t believe what happened one night when we were poring over the newsprint together…’

    • catalan on June 3, 2015, 4:18 pm

      “what does it say? (without “making conclusions” of course”)
      It says that on balance, a lot more Jews chose to leave Iran than stay there. Leaving is active, whereas staying is passive. By default, people would rather stay where they are, because of the force of habit and love of the surroundings. Leaving one’s country is a final step, it’s the one decision that changes your life.
      What I was saying is that there are many reasons people leave and many reasons people stay. However, when a large number of a community leaves, one surely can draw conclusions about the quality of life in that country.
      It is significant that one million Mexicans choose to come into
      The United States annually. The fact that many more stay in Mexico is not an argument for how great staying in Mexico is.
      Likewise, the fact that a few Jews, probably older ones, have chosen to remain in Iran in the familiarity of their own culture, in no way demonstrates that Iran is a paradise. You can love the Palestinian people without having to defend Iran’s close minded system of govenrment, you know.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 5:22 pm

        catalan, still having a difficult time finding that closest reply button eh.

        “I wonder why Iran’s remaining Jews chose to remain rather than accept fully funded immigration to Israel – ”

        More than 75 percent did leave though which says a lot.

        “what does it say? (without “making conclusions” of course”)

        It says that on balance, a lot more Jews chose to leave Iran than stay there.

        iow, you’re not going to tell us why you think they stayed or left, you’re going to lecture us on not being black and white.

        You can love the Palestinian people without having to defend Iran’s close minded system of govenrment, you know.

        i wasn’t defending the palestinian people catalan. i just noticed your phrasing and wondered why it wasn’t an example of “black and white”.

        It’s because you see things on black and white that you are making conclusions about the Jews of Iran. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/arabs-hate-jews/comment-page-1#comment-771840 …. when a large number of a community leaves, one surely can draw conclusions about the quality of life in that country.

        you should make up your mind what side of this ‘drawing conclusions’ fence you’re on catalan. otherwise, some people might draw the conclusion you’re a hypocrite.

        what conclusion do you draw in iraq? you know the zionist gangs were exploding things there, instigating emigration. i think it was an era where historically israel needed those immigrants. do you think because zionists gangs drove hundreds of thousands of palestinians from their homes it means iranian jews left for the same reason, because zionist gangs drove them out? if “one surely can draw conclusions about the quality of life in that country” why don’t you tell us what conclusion you’ve come to.

      • catalan on June 3, 2015, 6:23 pm

        “why don’t you tell us what conclusion you’ve come to”
        Annie, it is much easier to draw a conclusion from an act than from a passive situation. People generally prefer status quo to change. So when someone is willing to completely overhaul her life, it tells me more than if this person woke up and went to work.
        The fact that most Iranian Jews chose to leave Iran after the Islamic Revolution shows that they were willing to completely change their lives in order to get out of Iran. It means that they considered their prospects for happiness there very low. However, there are always older people and creatures of habit who would choose to stay. This is nothing unusual – look at the Jews from Eastern Europe, of whom I am a specimen.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 9:09 pm

        catalan, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out when lots of people “change their lives in order to get out of” a country “It means that they considered their prospects for happiness there very low.” this tells us nothing. but the overriding notion spinning around about jews is that they left places for racist reasons (for example Jews from Eastern Europe). whereas jews lived quite well and comfortably in the middle east for a long long time before zionism. and the idea people are leaving for political reasons doesn’t really jive with the notion of anti semitism very well now does it. look at cuba, lots of people left in mass but why? was it racist or a political situation? when people leave after a revolution it is often related to that revolution. note that wiki says (in the bold): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iran

        The reign of shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi after the deposition of Mossadegh in 1953, was the most prosperous era for the Jews of Iran. In the 1970s, only 10 percent of Iranian Jews were classified as impoverished; 80 percent were middle class and 10 percent wealthy. Although Jews accounted for only a small percentage of Iran’s population, in 1979 two of the 18 members of the Iranian Academy of Sciences, 80 of the 4,000 university lecturers, and 600 of the 10,000 physicians in Iran were Jews.[59] An important factor in economic improvement of the Jews was close relations between the Shah and the state of Israel. Details of this connection and how the condition of Iranian Jews improved dramatically in a few short years still awaits rigorous exploration.[62]

        awaits rigorous exploration..what does that mean? they had a revolution and then they left, after how many years? and what about this:

        The Six-Day War between Arabs and Israel in 1967 created a tense environment for Persian Jewry. During this time, the synagogues in Shiraz remained closed for more than ten weeks until Tisha B’Av for fear of attacks from Muslims masses. Jewish sources report that many gentiles tried to invade the Jewish ghetto and were dispersed by the police.[61]

        that doesn’t really sound like they were pissed strictly for reasons of anti semitism. and of course we heard, during last summers slaughter in gaza, protestors singled out israel because of anti semitism. but that’s ridiculous. and i’m not sure what the political support for israel was in the iranian jewish community when israel annexed jerusalem and the golan heights.. but if they left after the revolution maybe it had to do with the revolution and not anti semitism. similar to why cubans left cuba. that’s all i’m saying.

        look at the Jews from Eastern Europe, of whom I am a specimen.

        yes, let’s look at them. what do you think they have in common with iranian jews? did they both/all support zionism/israel? i don’t think so. it could have had more of a cuban revolution feel to it, the way iranian jews left. the timing and all. that’s all i’m saying.

      • michelle on June 5, 2015, 5:50 pm

        .
        the Israel funding of Jewish people moving to Israel
        does it work both ways
        what if the Jewish person gets there tries it on and
        finds out for whatever reason it’s not a good fit
        does Israel fund the return trip
        if not i would opt out … if i had been invited
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

    • Steve Grover on June 3, 2015, 5:20 pm

      @Annie,
      My take is that the significance of the BDS movement is over estimated. And Americans have a great deal of respect towards Israel. And that is under estimated.

      • annie on June 3, 2015, 5:32 pm

        steve, your take on what? i’m not going on a fishing expedition to figure out which of my comments you’re addressing. it’s really not that complicated to copy/paste a quote you’re referencing. and i know how challenging it must be to scroll up to the closest reply button, but practice makes perfect.

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 11:33 pm

        Annie, “Grober” thinks he is entitled to settle anywhere in greater Mondoweiss.

  3. Blownaway on June 3, 2015, 11:33 am

    I was born in Palestine and emigrated as a young child. I remember growing up in the 60′ and especially after the 67 war as a pre teen when peers would ask my nationality and I’d say Palestinian they would say hey do you know that guy he’s Jewish do you hate him wanna fight him and I didn’t even understand why… I still don’t but am amazed that some 40 yrs later there has been little if any evolution in stereotypical thinking. When later peers would ask why Palestinians hated America I asked my mom and she said Palestinans don’t hate America they are counting on America for their freedom boy was she wrong. Sad that such a smart country is doing such dumb things

    • pabelmont on June 3, 2015, 11:59 am

      If our country’s government’s foreign policy responded to the ideals of the American people — which I believe to be generally good, although there is a lot of racism in the USA — we might not do so many dumb things. But the government in general and FP in particular are run (or greatly influenced) by a small number of very rich people, and these seem to support Israel. So it goes.

  4. chocopie on June 3, 2015, 11:42 am

    It’s really sad that some American Jewish children are being raised to believe that they are hated. I’m glad the writer was able to learn otherwise.

  5. Mooser on June 3, 2015, 12:03 pm

    “We had certainly experienced incredible kindness and friendliness in pretty much every country we had walked through (some countries like Bulgaria, less so,”…

    Yup, about what I would expect.

  6. RobertHenryEller on June 3, 2015, 12:48 pm

    Being raised in Jewish in America to believe that Arabs hate Jews is the rule, not the exception. Whether such Jewish Americans ever come to realize or admit to this indoctrination, and how they deal with it, largely explains the split in how Jewish Americans come to view Israel.

    I’m a 2nd generation Jewish American male, raised in a Conservative Jewish American home. In June, 1967, I was preparing to graduate from high school in northern New Jersey. On the one hand, with the complete support and encouragement of my WWII/Normandy Landing veteran father, who understood what bullshit the Vietnam War was, I was, as were many of my contemporaries, even though I was headed to college and a military deferment, grappling with how I was going to avoid being sent to Vietnam, to avoid dying for nothing, to avoid killing for nothing. I considered applying for Conscientious Objector status. I thought I might be a pacifist.

    And then the Six Day War loomed. I went to a pre-war rally at my local Jewish Community Center. And I realized, walking out of the rally, that I, who had never been more than 100 miles from where I was born, never traveled anywhere by airplane, never even held a gun, let alone shot one – I realized, with an assurance I’ve rarely known about much else in my life, I knew, if I was asked to, I would board a bus, go to Newark Airport, get on a plane to Israel, pick up a gun, and start killing as many Palestinians as I could – people I had never seen.

    In that moment, in the mental dissonance between my feelings about Vietnam, and my feelings about Israel, I realized that I had been indoctrinated, for most of my life. My parents, who had raised me to believe completely in the Golden Rule, in Equality, in Civil Rights, had not openly indoctrinated me to hate Arabs. Simply, they had sent me to Hebrew School from the ages of 9 through 13, and I had absorbed, with complete trust, the story of Israel I was taught. Seamlessly, I transferred my short lifetime of hearing continuously about Nazi Germany (Like every other American, through movies, tv, books, radio, school.) and the Holocaust into fear and hatred of Muslims, of Arabs. I learned in June, 1967, that I may have been against the Vietnam War, but I was no pacifist.

    As I was also raised emphatically to think for myself, I somehow realized that what I thought about Israel and Muslims and Arabs was not me thinking for myself. I began, slowly, incrementally, from that point on, to start questioning my fear and hatred of Muslims and Arabs. It’s taken decades, even to the present, to work deliberately and continuously to counter the indoctrination.

    It has been anything but pleasant to make this journey. Because I’ve had to become alienated from much of my own culture, much of my collective history, many of “my own people.” I don’t feel less Jewish, I don’t deny being a Jew. Quite the contrary, I’ve come to believe that many people who call themselves Jews, to the extent they have supported Israeli policies towards Palestinians, are not Jews. When I feel I have to be polite, I call them fake Jews.

    I don’t recall, or perhaps I missed the notice, that the Jewish God observed the Holocaust, and rethought the Ten Commandments. I missed the news were that God said, “OK, I was wrong. Jews, you no longer have to obey the commandments about lying, stealing and killing. Obeying just 70% of the Commandments is enough to be Jewish. You can now be just 70% Jewish, and that’s okay with me. And that Rabbi Hillel guy? Forget that Golden Rule garbage.” Perhaps some people heard something different.

    • eljay on June 3, 2015, 12:55 pm

      || RobertHenryEller @ June 3, 2015, 12:48 pm ||

      Thank you for your post, Mr. Eller. You have my respect.

      • amigo on June 3, 2015, 2:28 pm

        “Thank you for your post, Mr. Eller. You have my respect. “eljay

        Ditto.

        I wonder what hopknee would have to say about our response.We don,t have to ask what he would call the honest Mr Heller. He already shared that with us when he referred to Phil,s self hatred as a disease born of centuries of oppression and Jew hatred.Is he claiming that some Jews desert their tribe as a means of avoiding the oppression.

        Woe is hopknee if he thinks that absolving the actions of the tribe , no matter what they do is the way to the tribes eternal survival .Hopknee , I suggest will be one of the first to take the 30 pcs of silver when the whole zionist project collapses and it will. He will then, by what I perceive to be his own logic , have to become a self hating zionist , to survive.

    • just on June 3, 2015, 2:02 pm

      What a journey, RobertHenryEller.

      Many, many thanks for sharing your story with all of us.

      • bintbiba on June 3, 2015, 2:11 pm

        @ RobertHenryEller

        What a very moving, intelligent and beautiful journey .

        I second Eljay ……. You have my respect, as well .

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 2:29 pm

        Mr. Eller’s experience is one which, as moving as it is, I will be forever denied.
        Drek auf dem teller was my first, only and irrevocable reaction to Zionism.
        Sorry.

    • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 2:42 pm

      “Quite the contrary, I’ve come to believe that many people who call themselves Jews, to the extent they have supported Israeli policies towards Palestinians, are not Jews.”

      I cannot go to that point. I let the Zionists do the excommunicating over this, I won’t stoop to it. They say they are Jews, they are Jews.

    • annie on June 3, 2015, 2:45 pm

      robert, your comment about heading off to israel to kill palestinians reminded me of some articles i read yesterday with interest. having been completely out of the loop during all the holocaust discussions duringthe 60’s, i first read about Raul Hilberg and his book “The Destruction of the European Jews” yesterday from this current haaretz article http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/this-day-in-jewish-history/.premium-1.659157

      curious, i read another article about him by his daughter. (http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/my-father-the-holocaust-scholar-the-man-whose-message-israelis-wouldn-t-hear.premium-1.483037 My father, the Holocaust scholar; the man whose message Israelis wouldn’t hear) she mentions her father directed her to read christopher browning (who i was also unfamiliar with), so i checked out his wiki page too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Browning. he wrote ‘Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland’ which then became the impetus for Daniel Goldhagen to write Hitler’s Willing Executioners (which i have heard of).

      anyway… goldenhagen believed in “deeply rooted murderous “eliminationist antisemitism” that had been brooding within the German people since at least Luther’s time, if not earlier.[17]”. it sounded rather outrageous. as if genocide is not, all things considered, generally perpetrated by ordinary men. and in the course of reading link after link after link…i couldn’t help but wonder what kind of conversation they’d be having if someone was making that same argument about jews or israelis today. that they had a vicious form of hatred towards palestinians “where the majority of [Israeli] public opinion was indifferent to what was happening…. but did not much care about what their government was doing to the [Palestinians or Arabs/muslims]” vs (regarding mowing the lawn): “contending that the vast majority of [Israelis] were active racists who wanted to kill [Palestinians] in the most “pitiless” and “callous” manner possible.”

      ‘borrowed’ from the following text: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioners

      the progress leading up to Auschwitz was motivated by a vicious form of antisemitism on the part of the Nazi elite, but that it took place in a context where the majority of German public opinion was indifferent to what was happening.[21] In several articles and books, most notably his 1983 book Popular Opinion and Political Dissent in the Third Reich, Kershaw argued that most Germans were at a minimum at least vaguely aware of the Holocaust, but did not much care about what their government was doing to the Jews.[22] Other historians, such as the Israeli historian Otto Dov Kulka, the Israeli historian David Bankier, and the American historian Aron Rodrigue, while differing from Kershaw over many details about German public opinion, arguing that the term “passive complicity” is a better description than “indifference”, have largely agreed with Kershaw that there was a chasm of opinion about the Jews between the Nazi “true believers” and the wider German public, whose views towards Jews seemed to have expressed more of a dislike than a hatred of Jews.[21] Goldhagen, in contrast, declared the term “indifference” to be unacceptable, contending that the vast majority of Germans were active antisemitics who wanted to kill Jews in the most “pitiless” and “callous” manner possible.[23]

      and i just thought to myself, having this big public open literary discussion about why the nakba happened and is happening, finding out the root of why ethnic cleansers are ethnic cleansers and coming up with names for it, like functionalists vs eliminationists and shall we send them off to madagascar jordan, let them stay in the bantustans, or mow the grass. anyway, i am just rambling. sorry. but i can’t imagine it would happen here, that kind of conversation. after all, we’re all just ordinary men and women, us humans. it could happen to any of us if we’re taught to fear and hate from a young age.

      according to haartz, re hilberg’s book “it was only in 2012 that Israel’s Yad Vashem brought out a Hebrew edition.” took them long enough.

      • Citizen on June 5, 2015, 3:44 pm

        Goldhagen’s book about the Germanic flaw has been ridiculed as crap by consensus of the historian community; it’s just that nobody told the mainstream US tv media, e.g., Imus had him on his show, peddling his crap–naturally Imus didn’t have a clue Goldhagen is not a credible source. Browning, OTOH, is a credible source. I don’t think he’s ever been invited on any mainstream media show.

    • RoHa on June 3, 2015, 8:31 pm

      For those of us who have merely been subjected to the pro-Israel propaganda of the mass media, it is difficult to comprehend how intense the brainwashing of Hebrew schools must be.

      It helps to explain the moral blindness of so many Jewish supporters of Israel.

      • RobertHenryEller on June 4, 2015, 9:53 am

        RoHa, I should point out that the brainwashing of Hebrew school did not feel intense. To the contrary, in retrospect, I might even say the indoctrination was delivered almost gently. Because nothing about Israel was ever contradicted or debated, because of course we trusted our teachers to be honest with us (And maybe they didn’t know the difference, either.), there was no other story we had to fight against.

        Remember also, that the Holocaust was real, particularly for the generation of my parents and their peers. My father was in Europe in WWII. He saw the concentration camps. Both parents of my junior high school prom date had camp number tattoos on their forearms.

        And there was all the history behind the Holocaust, going back thousands of years, still undeniable. So, it was the easiest thing in the world to see yourself as a victim, as a potential victim. By inference, it was almost impossible to see yourself as a perpetrator, or a potential perpetrator. Jews as Fascists? How could that be? And we were not presented with, challenged with, any evidence that would make us think we could also be perpetrators. The story of the founding of Israel we were taught was very distorted. We had no basis to question it.

        In short, the scary thing about brainwashing is, that in an otherwise gentle and supportive atmosphere, brainwashing children is easy.

      • Bornajoo on June 4, 2015, 9:57 am

        “In short, the scary thing about brainwashing is, that in an otherwise gentle and supportive atmosphere, brainwashing children is easy.” (RHE)

        Well stated. I couldn’t agree more with your comment

      • eljay on June 4, 2015, 10:05 am

        || RHE: In short, the scary thing about brainwashing is, that in an otherwise gentle and supportive atmosphere, brainwashing children is easy. ||

        || Bornajoo: Well stated. I couldn’t agree more with your comment ||

        +1.

      • just on June 4, 2015, 10:12 am

        Let me add my thanks to RobertHenryEller for that!

    • Marnie on June 4, 2015, 12:20 am

      Thanks for your personal history lessons but even more for repudiating them. It’s hard when you lose friends or family members over your choices and beliefs, but my experience is that they weren’t very good friends to begin with and family doesn’t necessarily have to be biological.

      • RobertHenryEller on June 4, 2015, 9:56 am

        If only it were that easy, Marnie. It’s one thing to lose family and friends, and that’s hard enough. It’s another thing to lose part of yourself, part of your identity of which you were once proud. That seems to remain painful.

      • Marnie on June 4, 2015, 12:09 pm

        RobertHenryEller – I shouldn’t have sounded so blithe as if losing friends and family is no big deal. I apologize.

    • wondering jew on June 4, 2015, 6:02 pm

      Robert Eller- i’m all in favor of assessing one’s background and education and upbringing. but the conclusion- that those who disagree with you are fake jews is contemptible. it is valid to call zionism immoral and thus to call zionists immoral jews. (i would not do so, but such labeling might be useful for one’s discussion of the issues.) it is valid to call anti zionism impractical and self destructive (of the group) and to label its proponents as such. (I do that often.) but as long as someone calls himself jewish, i’d give him the benefit of the doubt.

      • talknic on June 5, 2015, 6:10 am

        @ yonah fredman June 4, 2015, 6:02 pm

        “… as long as someone calls himself jewish, i’d give him the benefit of the doubt”

        Uh huh. Thanks I’ll remember that, however I won’t reciprocate if a Jew, or anyone else for that matter, proves to be a lying, two faced, false accusing, Hasbara spouting, apologist for Israel’s illegal actions and 67 years of illegal facts on the ground

      • Mooser on June 5, 2015, 12:11 pm

        “… as long as someone calls himself jewish, i’d give him the benefit of the doubt”

        Thank you, Your Majesty, Queen Yonah! Now, will you please consider this petition from your loyal subjects begging you to re-instate Phil Weiss, Max Blumenthal, and a few others? The benefit of your Royal doubt is a boon, of course, not lightly granted, but we beg you not to exclude them from the Jewish Community and its attendant benefits!

  7. Helena Cobban on June 3, 2015, 2:23 pm

    Having quite a few, totally non-hating Jewish people in my family, I’ve wondered about how some of this fear/hate gets perpetuated. I do notice that a lot of Jewish communal/religious observances are based on celebrating the “escape” of earlier Jewish communities from the heavy hand of oppression at the hands of neighboring communities who are very easily conflated with Israel’s current neighbors. E.g., the whole Exodus story about escape from enslavement by “Egypt”, or the Hannukkah story which is told as a story of surviving oppression by “Syria”. But where are the stories of celebrating relations with non-Jewish neighbors? I’m sure there must be some… (One is almost tempted to ask, “Why do ‘they’ teach their children to hate?”)

    • just on June 3, 2015, 3:19 pm

      “(One is almost tempted to ask, “Why do ‘they’ teach their children to hate?”) ”

      +1!

      That meme is reserved for only ‘them’ to use wrt ‘Arabs’, courtesy of Mama Meir and others:

      “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”……..

  8. DGH on June 3, 2015, 4:36 pm

    Here is an interesting interview conducted by Dr. Nancy Snyderman with several “former” Hasidic Jews:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDIrPXNXzJw

    Pay particular attention to the discussion starting about 3:00 into the interview, especially 3:15.

    • annie on June 3, 2015, 4:55 pm

      Pay particular attention to the discussion starting about 3:00 into the interview, especially 3:15.

      “gentiles will kill you”

      and that’s on NBC, mainstream TV. very sad.

      • DGH on June 3, 2015, 6:30 pm

        I was very surprised to hear those comments in the interview…so much so I wasn’t sure I heard it correctly. I had to listen to it several times to make sure I was hearing it correctly.

        I am a broadcast engineer so I get to see the behind the scenes and know that a lot of stuff gets cut out of interviews to meet the time constraints allocated by the producers.

        Nancy Synderman is a skilled professional interviewer. You can be sure she questioned them about that particular comment, but that those comments got cut and are lying on the digital cutting room floor. The fact that the comment in the piece made it through is rather remarkable, and was a very risky thing to do for the production team.

    • Marnie on June 4, 2015, 3:43 am

      African Americans have been harmed more ways than any other Americans could ever imagine (exception being Native Americans); even Jewish ones, and African American men and boys continue to be shot and killed at terrifying rates by police. Do African American parents teach their children “white people will kill you”? I doubt it, but warnings about the behavior of the police would be an appropriate lesson to a child whose people are regularly killed and maimed by them. But if they did, could you even begin to imagine the outrage that would follow? Hannity’s head would literally explode with indignation and O’Reilly would most likely stroke out. The NYT would have headlines reading “Blacks Hate White People!” Yet with this “gentiles will kill you”, not even a blip on the radar. Strange.

      • Mooser on June 4, 2015, 6:05 pm

        “African Americans have been harmed more ways than any other Americans could ever imagine (exception being Native Americans); even Jewish ones”

        Marnie, the fate of Jews in America, where they were forced to exist as individual Jews, with no recognition of Jewish people-hood, and no recognition of the Jewish religion by Government, and no legitimization of Jewish leaders, and no Jewish land, is a story too horrible, too exterminationary, too gruesome to be discussed. Besides, it’ll scare the heck out of the kids, probably scar them for life. Besides, who survived to tell the tale? American Jews are still forced to exist with only an ordinary American citizenship, as if they are a Gentile or something.

      • Citizen on June 5, 2015, 5:25 pm

        @ Marine
        Good point; with all going on now in US re police v black ghetto; and it’s a constant issue nightly, especially as between MSNBC v Fox News, nevertheless, not even Al Sharpton is conflating “bad apple cops” with all cops, although he initially tried to do so, and certainly he’s not saying every black has to deal with the inherent evil of all whites.

  9. tokyobk on June 3, 2015, 7:10 pm

    Annie-

    Why sad?

    Is on national TV exposing, not promoting, the kind of closed group think that keeps people inside, when there are no actual walls holding them in.

    • annie on June 3, 2015, 9:40 pm

      it’s profoundly sad they were ever taught this to begin with tokyobk. it’s also profoundly sad that right now there are children in “the kind of closed group think” who, because they are in that closed environment, will not be exposed to national tv and will never hear this interview. and maybe some of these children are learning this right now about the world outside and believe it. believe if they step out of their neighborhood they will be killed. that’s not anyway to live. not if you’re palestinian, not if you’re jewish, not if you’re anybody.

      • wondering jew on June 3, 2015, 10:13 pm

        annie robbins- I suppose according to you a liberal Jew in 1945 was nuts. For in fact how was one supposed to explain to oneself or to one’s children what had just occurred without saying that they hate us.

        Now, of course, if one was living in America to say that “they hate us” included the Smiths next door and not just the Himmler’s across the ocean, would have been wrong. The hatred of the war years was not eternal and universal. Many people helped Jews in many places. Not nearly most, but many.

        If one was living in Israel, from 2000 to 2004, how was one supposed to explain to one’s children the second intifadeh? Of course if one’s children were old enough the intricacies of the conflict: 1948, the Nakba, the occupation, the settlements, the imperialist British, colonialism would all go into a well rounded explanation. But would it not be simpler to say, “they hate us”. Simpler but inaccurate. But simpler.

      • tokyobk on June 3, 2015, 10:28 pm

        True.

      • tokyobk on June 3, 2015, 11:05 pm

        My “True” was for Annie’s Comment.

      • Sibiriak on June 4, 2015, 12:20 am

        yonah fredman: “But would it not be simpler to say, “they hate us”. Simpler but inaccurate… ”

        —————

        Simpler, but evil.

      • Marnie on June 4, 2015, 12:43 am

        Something that I’ve rarely seen here is Jewish kids smile, just smile for the sake of smiling, because you’re a kid and carefree. That’s all I knew in my hometown in the states, kids being open with their emotions; you go for a walk, are at the store, at your kid’s school and encounter kids of every background possible you smile at them and most of them, if not all, smile back. I haven’t seen that here. I always would smile at kids I’d see while out and about and rarely would they smile back. It shocked me that kids, little kids, as young as 3 or 4, were so closed. Looking at their parents it was easy to see this is a learned behavior, but its sick behavior and I think a form of child abuse. To teach your child that every non-Jew, anyone not a member of your family, your shul, etc., hates you and is out to harm you is sick, but it serves a greater purpose here because at some point that little boy or girl is going to put on a uniform and will be able to turn their fear and loathing onto little boys and girls who have done them no harm, but they’re enemies for only one reason and that is they aren’t Jews, so they hate you anyway. So there’s no problem, no remorse for killing a gentile, because that’s what they want to do to the Jews. With that twisted logic, there can never be peace.

      • Bornajoo on June 4, 2015, 9:46 am

        Thanks for your comments Marnie. What you say about kids ties in with my own experience of the kids on the Israeli side of my family and to a certain extent to the kids on this side of the family here in the UK

        And when they grow up a bit they start talking and behaving like the kids in the video I posted in my reply to Tokyobk.

      • eljay on June 4, 2015, 8:51 am

        || y.f.: … If one was living in Israel, from 2000 to 2004, how was one supposed to explain to one’s children the second intifadeh? Of course if one’s children were old enough the intricacies of the conflict: 1948, the Nakba, the occupation, the settlements, the imperialist British, colonialism would all go into a well rounded explanation. But would it not be simpler to say, “they hate us”. Simpler but inaccurate. But simpler. ||

        It would be just as simple but far more accurate to say “They hate us because we have been stealing from them and hurting and killing them for many, many years.” No need to skimp so much on the truth.

      • Kris on June 4, 2015, 11:37 am

        @yonah fredman: “But would it not be simpler to say, “they hate us”. Simpler but inaccurate. But simpler.”

        Not just “inaccurate,” yonah, but untrue. The problem with lying to children is that eventually they may learn the truth, and then what? Everything else you’ve told them becomes suspect.

        That is why Zionist parents are so worried about what their kids will learn on campus from non-Zionists.

      • ritzl on June 4, 2015, 10:19 pm

        Well said, Annie.

        The film “Defamation” comes to mind, related to Jewish Israeli kids. The paranoid indoctrination is total[itarian] and ongoing.

      • annie on June 5, 2015, 12:03 am

        If one was living in Israel, from 2000 to 2004, how was one supposed to explain to one’s children the second intifadeh? Of course if one’s children were old enough the intricacies of the conflict: 1948, the Nakba, the occupation, the settlements, the imperialist British, colonialism would all go into a well rounded explanation. But would it not be simpler to say, “they hate us”. Simpler but inaccurate. But simpler.

        and a child from gaza?

        I suppose according to you a liberal Jew in 1945 was nuts. For in fact how was one supposed to explain to oneself or to one’s children what had just occurred without saying that they hate us.

        that’s a cowardly segue yonah. if you’d like to divert the situation from today to last century you didn’t have to do it with “suppose according to you”.

        since we have time and space i will give you my opinion here. children are not stupid, they are a lot smarter than you think, even little children. and parents have a responsibility to raise their children, even during horrendous awful times, in a way that serves their intelligence and not take the easy way out. teaching children that the whole world hates them is cruel.

        i’ve never raised a child thru a war they were a party to or a victim of but i did raise my child thru difficult times and thru 9/11 and iraq. at all times i always stressed to my child that most people everywhere are good people. i have explained to many many children as best i could what hate was (because the word “hate” was the only word banned in our house, so the children wanted to know why) and i told them hate was something we really knew very little about because only people who had it inside knew what it was about. but if they imagined the very worst things imaginable, like the pain of having their friend or relative die in an accident, that it was even worse than that, because it was the worst thing in the world. kids learn to say i hate this and i hate that at the drop of a hat. so hate is sort of mysterious if you’ve never felt it (i haven’t). and i tell them right now somewhere on the planted someone is in a war, almost always. but at the same time most people are not, most people are pre occupied with their lives, loving somebody or doing their homework or gardening or going to the store or all sorts of things. but just like sometimes people have fights at school sometimes while countries have fights with eachother. and war is the worst thing ever. but people heal and forgive (because they do) and life goes on.

        or something like that. wrt ww2 i would have told them millions of people died and many of those millions were jews. and when i ask my mother why they killed them she said ‘i don’t know honey’ it was a war and awful things happen in wars, and then they end and people heal.

        or something. simple AKA: because “they hate us” is NOT the right answer, ever.

      • Bornajoo on June 5, 2015, 5:21 am

        “… at all times i always stressed to my child that most people everywhere are good people. i have explained to many many children as best i could what hate was (because the word “hate” was the only word banned in our house”

        Bravo Annie! If only every kid was raised this way. What a wonderful world it COULD be.

      • just on June 5, 2015, 12:28 am

        Absolutely stunning post, Annie. Thank you. (We were not allowed to say ‘hate’ either.)

        +100!

      • Mooser on June 7, 2015, 5:41 pm

        “But would it not be simpler to say, “they hate us”. Simpler but inaccurate. But simpler.”

        That’s right, Yonah!
        The Jewish tradition of instructing children in ethics, truth, and responsibility is inviolate! No Jewish parent would ever choose a “simpler” explanation, especially in a life-and-death matter. Why it would be manipulating the children, and using them, and Judaism forbids that! You tell ’em Yonah! As a matter of fact, it’s that love of truth and the high ethics attending it what makes us such a special nation, and we get a country cause of it. Pass bigotry on to our children, cause it’s “simpler”? Why, we would never do that, if we did that, we wouldn’t deserve Israel. And of course, we do!

      • Sibiriak on June 7, 2015, 7:29 pm

        Mooser: Pass bigotry on to our children, cause it’s “simpler”?

        Yonah’s razor?

      • Mooser on June 15, 2015, 11:57 am

        “Yonah’s razor?”

        “Yonah’s razor”!! Yes! “Yonah’s razor” is too dull to shave with, but it’s pretty good at cutting pilpuls.

  10. Keith on June 3, 2015, 7:13 pm

    ESSREA CHERIN- “It was a part of what constituted the challenge of being Jewish in this day and age.”

    Ah, the challenge of being part of the most privileged ethnic group in the US (world?). We should all be so “challenged.”

    ESSREA CHERIN- “Jewish history is rife with Jews encountering irrational urges to eradicate or drive away….”

    The very concept of Gentile irrational Jew hatred is profoundly irrational. Somehow, I doubt that you think that eternal and irrational anti-Semitism is an irrational belief, or that believing Gentiles to be irrational Jew haters is a manifestation of irrational anti-Gentile bias. It is an essential component of Zionist thinking which has been strongly emphasized following the June 1967 war.

    ESSREA CHERIN- “…most indelible of these being in Nazi Germany.”

    The notion of the Holocaust being the culmination of a long historical process is myth-history. Pre-enlightenment anti-Semitism was of a religious nature, Jews being defined as followers of the Judaic religion who maintained a separate presence within the surrounding Gentile communities. It was only during the enlightenment and the fragmentation of Jews into Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed and secular Jews that the concept of a Jewish race was born. Also, the notion that Gentiles constitute some sort of unified anti-Semitic entity is irrational. Historical conflict and warfare being what it was/is, strictly focusing on Jewish suffering to the exclusion of the overall historical circumstances is myopic and fallacious reasoning. Viewing World War II as little more than one big pogrom is perverse.

    Essrea, I am glad you had such a positive experience in your travels, however, I can’t help wondering if the reception had been less friendly because of displeasure with US imperialism or Israeli Zionism, if you would have attributed that to “irrational” anti-Semitism rather than to an understandable reaction to ongoing abuse.

    • wondering jew on June 3, 2015, 10:17 pm

      Keith- Was Hitler’s antisemitism logical and rational? I think not. But it seems it was just a footnote of history to you and Le Pen.

      • Keith on June 4, 2015, 1:48 am

        YONAH FREDMAN- “Keith- Was Hitler’s antisemitism logical and rational?”

        Are you comparing all or most Gentiles to Hitler? Is that rational?

        YONAH FREDMAN- “But it seems it was just a footnote of history to you and Le Pen.”

        Is comparing me to Le Pen logical and rational? What have I ever said that makes you think that I hate Jews? When I first began commenting on Mondoweiss, there were those who thought that I was overly fond of Noam Chomsky. Getting back to Hitler, was his hatred of the Slavs and Bolsheviks logical and rational? Is 20 plus million more than 6 million?

      • wondering jew on June 4, 2015, 6:14 pm

        Keith- I agree: to consider WWII nothing but a pogrom is to be historically blind, but to ignore the role that irrational antiSemitism played in the conduct and outcome of the war is to be blind as well. Germany could have won WWII if it had not pushed its Jewish scientists to flee to the US where their expertise helped win the war in the invention of the bomb.

        Any study of European history from 1881 to 1945, that treats the hatred of the Jews as some side issue is ignorant. To consider it the essence of that history is certainly ignorant as well, but from a Jewish point of view the period seems to indicate an inability of certain European nations to make the transition from the middle ages to modernity without passing through a very dark phase in regards to the Jewish people.

        The topic here is what this says about all Gentiles and it says nothing, other than it is not unusual for a historically conscious people to look to the past as a stark warning.

        The displacement of fear of European nationalism with a fear of Arab nationalism is not logical, the mechanisms of history that the Arab world has passed through and is still passing through, is quite different from the convulsion that Europe underwent in the relevant period. Arab reaction to British imperialism led to their support for Germany during WWII. Arab reaction to Zionism led them (them: referring to Nasser, rather than to Sadat or little King Hussein) to support the Soviet Union during the Cold War, so in recent times for very good reasons they have been twice on the very wrong side of history.

      • bryan on June 5, 2015, 6:36 am

        Yonah – you concede that World War II was not best viewed as simply a massive pogrom but then you undermine your argument by asserting the Judeocentric view that Hitler could have won the war had he not needlessly alienated Jewish scientists. You are of course entering the realms of pure speculation, but surely there are a lot of other mistakes made by the Axis that had a far more direct and obvious impact on the course of the war and are not Judeocentric: e.g. attacking Poland and allowing a war on two fronts before achieving victory in the West; insufficient persistence in wiping out the Royal Air Force in the Battle of Britain and in the destruction of convoys in the Battle of the Atlantic; failures of intelligence with regard to both the D-Day landings and the breaking of the Enigma code; massive overconfidence and underestimating the enemy in the offensives against Moscow and Stalingrad; the loss of the Japanese carrier force at Midway; etc, etc.

        Viewing the world through particularist tribal spectacles may not be the best way of understanding reality.

    • tokyobk on June 3, 2015, 10:48 pm

      Keith,

      So do you believe that pogroms and lynchings of Jews endemic in European history (including for supposedly baking goyish blood in to Matzah) were rational?

      Of course the Holocaust is the result of history. All such events are.

      It seems your purpose is to reduce all anti-semitism to the logical result of separation and anti-Goyish bias.

      This is the Farrakhan thesis: No one ever asks what the Jews did to Germany.

      • Keith on June 4, 2015, 1:50 am

        TOKYOBK- “So do you believe that pogroms and lynchings of Jews endemic in European history (including for supposedly baking goyish blood in to Matzah) were rational?”

        So do you believe that overall Gentiles are intrinsically irrational Jew haters and murderers? Do you dispute that Classical Judaism was anti-Gentile in its beliefs and practices? Are you unaware that the logical acceptance of group ideology inevitably results in certain irrational beliefs, regardless of the group involved?

        TOKYOBK- “It seems your purpose is to reduce all anti-semitism to the logical result of separation and anti-Goyish bias.”

        Not at all and strange that you would think so. My purpose is to point out that much of the Jewish version of never ending anti-Semitism is myth-history, not grounded in UNBIASED historical reality. The Jewish/Zionist version of events is little more than self-serving victimology. According to Israel Shahak, historically Jews were usually considered part of the ruling elite, incidents of anti-Jewish pogroms and suffering relatively less than the mass of Gentile peasants who they helped to abuse in service to the Gentile monarch. In fact, treating Gentiles as some sort of unified whole is irrational in the extreme.

        TOKYOBK- “This is the Farrakhan thesis: No one ever asks what the Jews did to Germany.”

        No, this is a cheap shot, hardly worthy of someone professing to be a scholar. I am unfamiliar with Farrakhan or his thesis, although you seem to seek out those who confirm your bias. When have I ever said that the Holocaust was other than a dastardly deed? I might add that it was primarily non-Zionists and anti-Zionists who perished in the Holocaust and Zionists who established a working relationship with the Nazis and later exploited the Holocaust to establish a Jewish state secured by imperial power. You have permitted group solidarity to overrule your common sense.

      • aiman on June 4, 2015, 4:13 am

        tokyobk, the idea that “pogroms and lynchings of Jews” was endemic to “European history” is false, so you need to rephrase your question. The persecution of Jews, gypsies and others in European history was “sporadic” which takes into account politics, moral panics etc. etc. Nothing is “endemic” to a people. It amazes me you would use this sort of geneticist language and complain about bigotry in the same breath. You would definitely be shouting from the top of “anti-Semitic” tower if someone said the persecution of Palestinians/Amelkites of yore/any vulnerable people on whom the post-Holocaust/post-Egypt emasculation may be settled etc. is “endemic” to Jews.

      • tokyobk on June 4, 2015, 5:27 pm

        airman — endemic is an appropriate word to describe the pervasive trend of anti-semitism in Europe. It is not genetic and I made no such implication.

        Keith, I do not believe that Europeans or anyone else is intrinsically anything. I think the evidence is quite clear that irrational beliefs about super/sub human Jews were a normal part of European thought for much of its history.

        Classical Judaism believes, like classical Christianity and Islam, that the world can be divided into groups and each groups has its virtues and defaults in a hierarchy with (surprise) that group as the most righteous and worthy.

        I believe in the power dynamic of Europe was such for most of its history that what Muslims and Jews (when they weren’t simply expelled) believed about the dominant society was of less political and social consequence than what society thought of them.

        Keith “My purpose is to point out that much of the Jewish version of never ending anti-Semitism is myth-history, not grounded in UNBIASED historical reality. ”

        So, who has argued that there was unending antisemitism? Every educated person nows that there were periods of tolerance and acceptance. Even before Europe the Exodus and Purim stories are predicated on Jews sometimes rising to great heights of power.

        It does not surprise me at all that your source on Judaism is Israel Shahak. His purpose is precisely what I said you were doing as well as to collapse Judaism and Zionism into one essential identity.

        Sure the power dynamic you describe often happened and stoked anti-Jewish resentment. Jews as a group were not elites in Europe but individual Jews did wield great power at times.

        Farrakhan also said that the Holocaust was a crime and I never implied you don’t think so as well. But what he further said is what you tend to imply (imo). That the Jews gave as good as they got, and were all told no victims, that antisemitism is in fact an anti-Gentile canard more than a historical occurrence and that this anti-Gentile bigotry explains “antisemitism”

        Is this not what you believe?

      • Mooser on June 4, 2015, 6:21 pm

        Wasn’t the general level of religio-sectarian violence in Europe greater at that time, all around? As I remember Protestants had a hard time getting along with Catholics for a while, and I don’t even like to think of what the Christians must have done to all those happy pagans and polytheists before that. I heard rumors of other types of strife, too.

        So before we start kvetching ‘everybody hates us’ don’t we need to determine what the general level of intra and inter-religious and ethnic violence was at the time, and then asking if they violence and prejudice directed towards Jews was at a level which surpassed that. And if it was, where does it say that the Jews are immune from being the victims or in some sense the historical losers (awww, we lost our fantasy “homeland”)

        I’m uneasy with any analysis of anti-semitism which fails to take into account the general level of that type of strife contemporaneous with the events. If an earthquake strikes a city, and opens up a crack in a Jewish neighborhood, and the schul falls in while the Rabbi is praying (which, of course, God forbid!) is the earthquake anti-semitic?

      • Bornajoo on June 5, 2015, 4:21 am

        “I’m uneasy with any analysis of anti-semitism which fails to take into account the general level of that type of strife contemporaneous with the events. If an earthquake strikes a city, and opens up a crack in a Jewish neighborhood, and the schul falls in while the Rabbi is praying (which, of course, God forbid!) is the earthquake anti-semitic?”

        Thanks for another terrific observation Mooser. Precisely the point I was making in my previous reply to Tokyobk. Growing up in East London as a kippah wearing kid was nowhere near as bad for me as it was for black people, Indians and Pakistanis as well as many other minorities. It was a sign of the times and has to be taken in context. No one group can claim the total victimhood for any historic period

        I remember having the same conversation on a thread a few months ago with Mikhael who was trying to tell me how bad it was for my family in Iraq and other areas they lived for generations in the middle east. I tried to point out it wasn’t a great time for ANY minority anywhere. While my great grandparents were still living (well and happy) in Iraq the Dutch slave trade was still in its final throes….. Context!

      • Keith on June 4, 2015, 7:58 pm

        TOKYOBK- “airman — endemic is an appropriate word to describe the pervasive trend of anti-semitism in Europe.”

        As I have already indicated, describing incidents of anti-Semitism in Europe as “endemic” and constituting a “pervasive trend” is myth-history. Unless and until these incidents are placed into context in regards to what is going on in the surrounding Gentile communities, including the relationship between the Jews and the nobility versus the Jews and the serfs, and the rampant hostilities between disparate Gentile communities/polities, then there is no meaningful context to evaluate the relative level of anti-Jewish hostility and violence compared to anti-serf exploitation and violence versus the violence of warfare. Don’t forget that European history is exceptionally bloody, one-third of Prussians killed in one of these wars. And while you claim to be aware of this, your phraseology implies otherwise.

        TOKYOBK- “It does not surprise me at all that your source on Judaism is Israel Shahak. His purpose is precisely what I said you were doing as well as to collapse Judaism and Zionism into one essential identity.”

        Wrong! He maintains that Zionism is essentially a throwback to Classical Judaism, an attempt to nullify the enlightenment. Remember, Shahak was an Israeli writing about the Orthodox Judaism of Israel, not American Reform Judaism.

        TOKYOBK- “Jews as a group were not elites in Europe….”

        Israel Shahak: “…the social role of the Jews as an integral part of the upper classes. In many countries Jews were treated as potential nobles and, upon conversion, were able to immediately intermarry with the highest nobility. The nobility of 15th century Castile and Aragon or the aristocracy of 18th century Poland- to take the two cases where intermarriage with converted Jews was widespread – would hardly be likely to marry Spanish peasants or Polish serfs, no matter how much praise the gospel has for the poor.” (p67, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

        TOKYOBK- “So, who has argued that there was unending antisemitism?”

        The whole article revolves around irrational Jewish belief in anti-Semitism. Perhaps you have noticed how some Mondoweiss commenters resort to the charge of anti-Semitism, yet you imply that this is not a pervasive belief among Zionist Jews? Perhaps a few quotes would help?

        “The world hates the Jews. The world always has and will continue to do so.” (David Mamet)

        “Two central dogmas underpin the Holocaust framework: (1) The Holocaust marks a categorically unique historical event; (2) The Holocaust marks the climax of an irrational, eternal Gentile hatred of Jews.” (p41, “The Holocaust Industry,” Norman Finkelstein)

        The claim of eternal anti-Semitism is a core justification for a Jewish state, yet you deny such a claim exists? Incredible! You also conveniently avoided answering one of my key questions. Do you dispute that Classical Judaism was anti-Gentile in its beliefs and practices?

        TOKYOBK- “Farrakhan also said that the Holocaust was a crime and I never implied you don’t think so as well. But what he further said is what you tend to imply (imo).”

        Trying to justify your cheap shot? I already said that I am unfamiliar with Farrakhan so that continuing to try to conflate me with him is intellectually dishonest. Please confine yourself to commenting on what I actually said rather than insinuating that Farrakhan speaks for me, or that I sound like Le Pen (Yonah), etc. As an aside, a lot of you Zionist Jews seem to spend an inordinate amount of time searching for anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic websites, etc. No wonder your view of Gentiles is so skewed. I leave with a final quote from (who else?) Israel Shahak.

        “Therefore, the real test facing both Israeli and diaspora Jews is the test of their self-criticism which must include the critique of the Jewish past. The most important part of such a critique must be detailed and honest confrontation of the Jewish attitude to non-Jews.” (p103, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

      • tokyobk on June 4, 2015, 8:43 pm

        Keith, do you have other sources about Judaism other than Shahak?
        You remind me of people with out any Arabic or training in Islam who can quote every scary hadith and have their wahhabi and ex-Muslim experts to back them up.

        Of course Zionists use antisemitism, real and imagined, to justify Jewish nationalism and a whatever-means-necessary approach. What does that have to do with trying to measure the extent to which it existed or not. It did exist, with some interruptions, as a pervasive trend in European history. Yes, Mooser is right that there is a context of religious wars that cannot be ignored. Brutality towards and hatred for Jews is exceptional even in that context.

        “TOKYOBK- “It does not surprise me at all that your source on Judaism is Israel Shahak. His purpose is precisely what I said you were doing as well as to collapse Judaism and Zionism into one essential identity.”

        KEITH: Wrong! He maintains that Zionism is essentially a throwback to Classical Judaism, an attempt to nullify the enlightenment. Remember, Shahak was an Israeli writing about the Orthodox Judaism of Israel, not American Reform Judaism.”

        I don’t see any useful distinction here. He sees them as a continuous expression of an essential Judaism.

        You have a beef with the organised Jewish community. I share some of that beef. Where we part ways is that I don’t think Zionist exaggerations need a counterweight of minimisation.

      • tokyobk on June 4, 2015, 8:51 pm

        Keith,

        “Two central dogmas underpin the Holocaust framework: (1) The Holocaust marks a categorically unique historical event; (2) The Holocaust marks the climax of an irrational, eternal Gentile hatred of Jews.” (p41, “The Holocaust Industry,” Norman Finkelstein)

        About NF’s quote. The slaughter of European Jewry is, like every historical event, unique with a specific set of variables. Genocide is not unique and WWII and its aftermath saw several. The conquest of the New Wold, the Belgian Congo, the Armenians before that. All with unique variables. Congo could never have happened without several hundred years of diminishing the humanity of black Africans. The ling pervasive, endemic (but not necessarily essential) denigration of black people allowed it not only to happen but to be largely ignored by history. More Chinese civilians died in WWII than Jews so not unique in that sense. However, part of the variables of the Jewish Holocaust were a long, long and irrational hatred of Jews.

      • tokyobk on June 4, 2015, 9:01 pm

        The Farrakhan reference is not a cheap shot. Im not saying you even know his speaches or agree with him. I actually do agree with him on some issues. (not this one).

        If you read his speeches about Jews you will see he does, as I suggest, what I perceive you as doing, saying that suspicion of Jews is in fact historically quite rational, the Jews are not victims and in fact instigators of their own misfortunes. That people criticise the Germans for what they did to the Jews but no one criticises the Jews for what they (in his allegation) did to Germany.

        This is 101 revisionism and the purpose goes way beyond muting the exaggerations of Zionists.

        By the way the phrase “you Zionists” towards me is simply incorrect. I don’t believe or support any kind of political Zionism. The only kind of Zionism I find acceptable morally or intellectually is cultural Zionism, meaning if Jews want to speak Hebrew, live in (a democratic) Israel/Palestine. I also don’t object to concepts of transhistorical and cross board nationhood. Not for the Muslim Ummah not for PanAfricans and not for Jews who want to think of themselves that way.

      • eljay on June 4, 2015, 9:15 pm

        @tokyobk: Thank you for all your comments in this thread.

      • RoHa on June 4, 2015, 9:19 pm

        “This is 101 revisionism”

        And is it wrong, in whole or in part?

      • Keith on June 4, 2015, 11:16 pm

        TOKYOBK- “Keith, do you have other sources about Judaism other than Shahak?”

        Indirectly, “The Jewish Century” by Yuri Slezkine and “The invention of the Jewish people” by Shlomo Sand. But that isn’t the point, is it? Israel Shahak is a scholar of high repute and utmost integrity, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion” a valuable resource. The introductions to the book by Gore Vidal, Edward Said and Norton Mezvinsky are exceptionally laudatory. Quoting Edward Said: “I have always known Shahak to be a prodigious historian, brilliant intellectual and polymath scholar, and political activist; but, as I suggested above I have come to realize his central ‘hobby’ has been the study of Judaism, of the rabbinical and Talmudic traditions, and of the scholarship on the subject. This book is therefore a powerful contribution to these things. It is no less than a succinct history of ‘classical’ as well as more recent Judaism, as those apply to an understanding of modern Israel.” (pxi, Jewish History, etc) Since you are a historian, read the book and do your own research, then critique it rather than continuing to rely on innuendo about my sources. Oh, and take your Farrakhan strawman and stick him where the sun don’t shine. Apparently, you can’t make your point without referring to him or putting words in my mouth. How about some quotes of me engaging in “101 revisionism?” There is absolutely nothing “scholarly” about your Zionist distortions and misrepresentations.

        TOKYOBK- “However, part of the variables of the Jewish Holocaust were a long, long and irrational hatred of Jews.”

        Your statement indicates that you are a staunch defender of the Zionist faith, nothing more. As a minimum, you will need to account for this “long, long and irrational hatred of Jews.” Is it part of the Gentile genetic makeup? Or are we instructed in anti-Semitism? In view of current Jewish power and privilege, does this mean that Jewish success has come in spite of Gentile hostility? Does this indicate Jewish superiority? Why not just be honest and admit that your belief in irrational anti-Semitsm is such an integral part of who you are that you can’t even conceive that it is an ideological construct designed to promote tribal solidarity.

        TOKYOBK- “Yes, Mooser is right that there is a context of religious wars that cannot be ignored. Brutality towards and hatred for Jews is exceptional even in that context.”

        Got any numbers? Hard to believe that a “scholar” would consider simple repetition of talking points as empirical evidence. So how come this irrational Jew hatred seems to have miraculously disappeared? You are irritating me. There is something inherently dishonest about a person of privilege playing the victim card. Additionally, I provide quotes from serious intellectuals like Shahak and Finkelstein, and what do I get from you, the “scholar?” Bogus conflation with (Louis?) Farrakhan. Enough of this crap! Unless you can make a reasonably intelligent comment, much better than what I have seen so far, I am not going to respond any more. Frankly, I am disappointed in you.

      • tokyobk on June 5, 2015, 1:10 am

        Keith —

        You quote the wiki page on Shahak. I read that too, as well as the negative quotes.

        He is not considered an unblemished scholar among scholars of Judaism. He is a popular source for people who have qualms with Judaism. He is a hero to people like you much as ex-Mulsims are to those who need an essentially bad Islam.

        The Jews of America are extraordinarily privileged.

        Things changed because there is nothing essential about anti-Semitism. Not among Europeans nor among Arabs. I have never argued that, despite your insistence that I am arguing that.

        However, unfortunately, Jews in Europe experienced experienced segregation, lynching and irrational accusations for most of their history there. If you want to dispute that, fine but its you that is making myths.

        As for me being tribal or Zionist. No. I am a humanist above any of my ethnic or religious associations and I completely reject all aspects of the conquest of Palestine by a Jewish State. In fact, Jewish nationalism appals me probably mores because I identify as Jewish.

        But I also dislike Jew-hobbiests and historical revisionists who seek to minimise the suffering of people, and Jews did suffer terribly in Europe because they were Jews, culminating in the Shoah.

        The racism that ruled it was in good measure irrational, not because Europeans are innately racist anymore than they are sexist or Islamophobic though those are also endemic in European history.

        Me being a scholar or not hardly depends on me footnoting my observations about what you are up to. And if you want to be a scholar of Judaism and Jewish culture, you’re going to need more than Shahak.

      • aiman on June 5, 2015, 8:29 am

        Tokyobk,

        “Brutality towards and hatred for Jews is exceptional even in that context.”

        Wrong. Exceptionally wrong.

        “Classical Judaism believes, like classical Christianity and Islam, that the world can be divided into groups and each groups has its virtues and defaults in a hierarchy with (surprise) that group as the most righteous and worthy.”

        Wrong again. Do you have evidence to back up this hierarchy claim in the three classical strains? Do you know about hierarchy in modernity/Greece/Renaissance?

        As for the word “endemic” it is one of the most misused words for everything from racism to disease. There was nothing endemic about prejudice or persecution of Jews. The word endemic has a Greek root and relates to people. If it was “endemic”, Hitler wouldn’t have had any Jews left to send into gas chambers. The same claim as yours is made by right-wing Hindu fundamentalists just replace Europeans with Muslims. This allows both Zionists and Zindus (word coined by Taxi) to wallow in self-pity even though both these groups enjoy contemporary historical privilege. No surprise both are great allies as well.

      • Mooser on June 5, 2015, 12:21 pm

        “Yes, Mooser is right that there is a context of religious wars that cannot be ignored”

        And non-religious wars communities, willingly or not, play parts in. And natural disasters and environmental changes and their attendant human disruption. And economic cycles, and manipulations, not to mention the machinations of politics on both an intra and inter state basis. There’s a lot of stuff. Why would we Jews be excluded from any of it?

      • Mooser on June 5, 2015, 4:30 pm

        Just to be on the safe side, tho, I’m gonna go eat some worms. It’s supposed to make you feel better if nobody loves you and everybody hates you. Worth a try.

      • Mooser on June 7, 2015, 10:44 am

        `That “think-I’ll-go-eat-worms” thing? Forget it. I thought they would make me feel better, and taste like shrimp, or maybe sushi. They don’t, they taste terrible. And the damn things are hard to catch. Another cynical joke on the despised peoples of the earth.

      • Mooser on June 7, 2015, 5:46 pm

        “Brutality towards and hatred for Jews is exceptional even in that context.”

        Oh well, that settles that, then. Don’t even know why I bothered to bring it up.

        Hmmm, maybe if I sauteed the worms….

      • RoHa on June 7, 2015, 9:57 pm

        Mooser, with your knowledge of history you should realise that a diet of worms isn’t going to work out the way it is supposed to.

      • Mooser on June 8, 2015, 7:13 pm

        “a diet of worms isn’t going to work out…”

        Put the worms in fresh water, changed several times, for 24 hours, then rinse well. Puree in a food-processor for 3 minutes, then strain through a whole cloth.

      • RoHa on June 8, 2015, 7:39 pm

        And are you eating fresh worms, or worms from a can?

      • RoHa on June 8, 2015, 7:49 pm

        That’s the original 1521 recipe, is it?

      • Kris on June 8, 2015, 8:21 pm

        I hope that the worms are humanely harvested from an unfenced, organic compost pile within 20 miles of Mooser’s home. If canned, they must at least be fair trade.

      • RoHa on June 8, 2015, 8:42 pm

        With an appropriate mix of long, thin, slimy ones and short, fat, juicy ones. I think both Emperor Charles V and Luther agreed about that, at least. It was the “bite their heads off, suck their guts out, throw the skins away” policy that was the cause of the dispute.

      • Mooser on June 9, 2015, 1:32 pm

        “TOKYOBK- “Keith, do you have other sources about Judaism other than Shahak?”

        Of course he does! I have been commenting here for years. Really, what more does he need? And I am, as I have been told many times “typical”.

      • Mooser on June 12, 2015, 12:50 pm

        ” I hope that the worms are humanely harvested from an unfenced, organic compost pile within 20 miles of Mooser’s home. If canned, they must at least be fair trade.”

        I grow my own worms. Only way to do it. I happen to have a back yard, but even apartment dwellers can raise worms in a container, or “worm farm”.

      • Mooser on June 15, 2015, 12:02 pm

        I’m telling you, between a diet of worms and the Trefa Banquet, religion can give you such an indigestion.

    • Peas Lover on June 4, 2015, 11:02 am

      Keith,

      I believe you are exactly right…however my read of the author’s story is that she was taught the myth as if it were true, and through her life’s journeys began to see the falsity of the myth — which not only contained the message, “Arabs Hate Jews” but also that Jewish history is peppered with ‘irrational urges’ — but that these components of modern-day Jewish identity are part of the mythology that allows them to continue murderous and treacherous behaviors, feeling fully justified due to their ‘victim’ status in life.

      My sense is that this period in her life was the beginning of the eye-opening journey of demystifying the narrative.

    • tokyobk on June 4, 2015, 11:24 pm

      eljay, nice to see you as always.

      RoHa, in this case of course there is some truth to what Shahak says about Jewish perceptions of non-Jews (though he also outright lied about a Jew’s responsibility to break the sabbath in order to save Jew or non-Jew – It is the responsibility to save a life above all other commandments). I admire the young Sikh man who recently used his turban to stop the bleeding of a young boy. What a beautiful act of humanity.

      And revisionism does not have to be bad even when about touchy subjects.
      I do want to know the accurate numbers of Jews murdered in the Shoah or the number of Africans transported in the Trade . As a matter of history, not as ammo with which to fight for one’s politics. So, first the facts as best they can be determined and then its important to ask what is the intent of the revisionist?

      The kind of revisionism Keith is partial to, seems to me akin to writing a history of America in which one showed all the terrible things that black people have said about whites from David Walker to Nat Turner through to Malcom X and then casting slavery and Jim Crow as the logical consequence of all that hate. It would be possible to throw in the brutality of the various slave revolts to show that Black Codes were rational, and even the cases where blacks owned whites and other blacks to make th point that it really wasn’t about race and that racism is overstated. Or, at least race relations in the US was a struggle between two equal forces each trying to harm the other (that phrasing remind you of anything?). Jewish communities in Europe were ghettoised, forbidden from trades, brought up on witchcraft charges, lynched and assaulted repeatedly. I imagine in that climate the ancient texts about Jews and non-Jews began to fuel some hostile interpretations of the contemporary situation. Other rabbis throughout, even in those times, have argued that one cannot update the ancient texts to contemporary gentiles.

      • RoHa on June 5, 2015, 1:03 am

        Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear. I wasn’t asking about Shahak or the history of black people in America. I was asking about the Farrakhan thesis as you presented it: “suspicion of Jews is in fact historically quite rational, the Jews are not victims and in fact instigators of their own misfortunes”

        Since I am philosopher, not a politician or religious leader, my main concern is whether a claim is true or not. (If not true, it should at least be entertaining.) You said that you did not agree with Farrakhan, but I am interested in how much, and why, you disagree.

        “And revisionism does not have to be bad”

        Why should we ever think it is bad, if it is an honest attempt at finding the truth?

      • tokyobk on June 5, 2015, 3:06 am

        RoHa,

        Yes -if- it is in the interest of the truth. All history writing to some extent is revisionism.

        No, I don’t believe The Jews are the authors of Jewish misery. Why don’t I believe that is not something I can answer briefly, because I do think it is a fair historical question however obnoxious and similar to Golda Meir’s belief that Palestinian mothers murder their own children because they hate the Jews so much.

        I do believe this happens to be the preferred claim of all racists about the group they most dislike. (which of course does not invalidate it in itself).

        How about you?

      • Keith on June 5, 2015, 2:07 pm

        TOKYOBK- “(though he also outright lied about a Jew’s responsibility to break the sabbath in order to save Jew or non-Jew – It is the responsibility to save a life above all other commandments).”

        You are going to have to defend this scurrilous accusation against Shahak. I assume that you are referring to the story on page one where Shahak relates the following: “I personally witnessed an ultra-religious Jew refuse to allow his phone to be used on the Sabbath in order to call an ambulance for a non-Jew who happened to have collapsed in his Jerusalem neighborhood. Instead of simply publishing the incident in the press, I asked for a meeting with the members of the Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem, which is composed of rabbis nominated by the state of Israel. I asked them whether such behavior was consistent with their interpretation of the Jewish religion. They answered that the Jew in question had behaved correctly, indeed piously, and backed their statement by referring me to a passage in an authoritative compendium of Talmudic laws, written in this century. I reported the incident to the main Hebrew daily, Haaretz, whose publication of the story caused a media scandal.” (p1, Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

        Please indicate which part of Shahak’s narrative is a lie. As for your contention that saving Gentile lives is above all other commandments, obviously the ultra-religious Jew in question and the Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem feel otherwise. Turning our attention to the real world, Israel’s murderous actions toward the Palestinians and other Arabs indicates the real extent of Zionist concern for non-Jewish lives. But you are not fond of the facts on the ground, preferring instead to defend your narrative at all costs. A “scholar” who favors ideology over empirical reality.

      • RoHa on June 5, 2015, 10:54 pm

        I am not sure to what extent anti-Semitism is a reaction to Jewish actions. Church teachings clearly play a part in European anti-Semitism, but I am not convinced it is the sole cause. Roman writings suggest that, in spite of their legal privileges, Jews in the Roman Empire made a nusiance of themselves before Christianity had any power, and discussions on MW likewise reveal anti-social tendencies among Polish Jews. But I am not enough of a historian to tease out a firm judgement on the issue.

        But I am thoroughly fed up with the constant whining about ant-Semitism.

    • bintbiba on June 5, 2015, 5:38 am

      annie , at 12:03

      what a wonderful post… thank you so much !

      Bringing up children in this day and age is so fraught with difficulties due to influences and propaganda (s) .

      Hate is a word that is unfathomable and too easy to spew .
      I’m glad my job was done long ago , and do not have to do it at this very complex and dangerous time we are living through.
      My brothers and I were not taught to hate too . ( Does not preclude anger at injustice and cruelty , though !)

  11. Bornajoo on June 3, 2015, 7:41 pm

    Thank you Essrea Cherin and RobertHenryEller for sharing your stories

    It’s very difficult to break free from this kind of indoctrination. Unfortunately I have family here in the UK who I believe are too far gone and will never escape it. The ‘system’ of indoctrination within many Jewish communities is very effective

    I’m now just waiting for Hophmi or one of the other Zionistas to come along and excommunicate you both. They should be along any minute now.

    • tokyobk on June 3, 2015, 8:17 pm

      I thought RobertHeneyEller’s comments were especially thoughtful too.

      But Bornajoo, do you think Zionists exploit or invent anti-semitism? I think most people here assume mostly the second.

      • Bornajoo on June 4, 2015, 4:12 am

        “But Bornajoo, do you think Zionists exploit or invent anti-semitism. I think most people here assume only the first?”

        There’s a huge amount of invention going on all the time Tokyobk. When the families of my parents left Iraq in the early 50s, a country they had lived in for generations it was because of zionist terrorism dressed up as Arab anti semitism. That anti semitism was invented specifically with the aim of forcing the largest population of Arab Jews to emigrate to Israel which they stubbornly refused to do before that, even after a terrible incident which happened in 1941 during the second world war.

        My mother had already left Iraq and lived in Bahrain and left for economic reasons, not anti semitism. There was one isolated incident which occurred in Bahrain in 1947. Nothing before or after. My first cousin works today for the Bahrain government and everyone is aware he’s Jewish. However if you listen to the Zionist narrative today all you will hear is that the Jews were persecuted continually and had no choice but to run from those countries and lucky for them israel was created just in time!

        My family here in the UK have been brainwashed by invented anti semitism, specifically my nieces and nephew. They went to Jewish only schools and only hang around with other Jews. Perceived anti semitism is drilled into them from several angles yet in reality none of them have ever experienced any anti semitism and probably never will. But they believe that anti semitism is everywhere. Their school always had a security guard outside and so do their synagogues. So imagine as a kid going to school and synagogue and always seeing security guards. Why are they there? And why only outside Jewish schools and synagogues? It must mean that there are people ‘out there’ who are constantly looking to harm Jews and if it weren’t for these security guards they would do so. Yet even though no anti semitic incidents ever occurred, the impression of anti semitism is created. And this is on top of the layers of indoctrination they get from their zionist school and from within their group

        Yoav Shamir’s 2009 film “defamation” exposes the way that the Zionist education system invents anti semitism. If you haven’t seen it it’s worth watching and it’s available free on YouTube.

        Zionism needs to keep inventing and reinventing anti semitism to feed its ideology. Without anti semitism it couldn’t survive. Hence the never ending attempts, unfortunately mostly successful, of conflating anti zionism/israel with anti semitism.

      • tokyobk on June 4, 2015, 4:26 am

        Bornajoo,

        Its amazing to think that Baghdad was once as “Jewish” as Manhattan, except mores in that the Jews of Iraq had been there for a thousand years not a few hundred.

        I respect everything you are saying.

        But, do you/would you wear a Kippah on the streets of any European city? Do your cousins have any outward signs of being Jewish? Perhaps that is why they experience something you may not.

      • eljay on June 4, 2015, 7:15 am

        || Bornajoo @ June 4, 2015, 4:12 am ||

        Thank you for your replies to tokyobk.

      • Kris on June 4, 2015, 11:25 am

        @Bornajoo: “Yoav Shamir’s 2009 film “Defamation” exposes the way that the Zionist education system invents anti semitism. If you haven’t seen it it’s worth watching and it’s available free on YouTube.”

        Thanks for reminding me of this great documentary, Bornajoo. Here’s a link where you can watch the whole documentary, which is in English, with French subtitles:

      • Mooser on June 4, 2015, 6:32 pm

        “Do your cousins have any outward signs of being Jewish?”

        Unless the person manifesting the “outward signs of being Jewish” (tilt!?! I usually keep my underwear on in public) is holding a sign at a JVP demo, wouldn’t “outward signs of being Jewish” almost inevitably be taken as outward signs of being Zionist, and extremely so, and therefore, provocative to a lot of people?
        So yes, you might have trouble walking around in a kippah sneering at the natives, yes.

        And, and a hearty, hearty “f–k you” to those who have turned Jewish religious symbols into political and ideological symbols. And hated ones, at that. Thanks, Zionists, that was exactly what Judaism needed after the Holocaust.

      • Bornajoo on June 5, 2015, 3:51 am

        “And, and a hearty, hearty “f–k you” to those who have turned Jewish religious symbols into political and ideological symbols. And hated ones, at that. Thanks, Zionists, that was exactly what Judaism needed after the Holocaust.”

        +100 Mooser. Well said!

      • tokyobk on June 4, 2015, 11:55 pm

        Mooser –

        “wouldn’t “outward signs of being Jewish” almost inevitably be taken as outward signs of being Zionist, and extremely so, and therefore, provocative to a lot of people? So yes, you might have trouble walking around in a kippah sneering at the natives, yes. ”

        No one said anything about sneering at the natives.

        I mean walking around with a kippah or star of David. Or for that matter a hijab. I assume you agree that someone who attacks a Muslim woman with a headscarf doesn’t get afforded mitigating context because of horrible things some Muslims have down elsewhere in the name of Islam, under flags with Muslim symbols.

      • echinococcus on June 5, 2015, 10:23 am

        tokyobk,

        The gentleman has already explained, in the very post you are answering (by avoiding to answer), that you guys have turned religious symbols into symbols of political aggression and oppression (especially the star of David), so your repeating the “religious symbols” description for those things is, how shall I say, strange.

      • Mooser on June 5, 2015, 12:28 pm

        “so your repeating the “religious symbols” description for those things is, how shall I say, strange.”

        One thing you can always count on from Zionists, they blame the Jews or Judaism for everything Zionism does, it never fails.

        And “tokyobk”, I don’t care what you say about “the outward signs of being Jewish”, I’m keeping it in my pants, thank you.

      • echinococcus on June 5, 2015, 5:42 pm

        Mooser,

        Now don’t tell me that the need for provocative ostentation of piety among the New-Fromm has reached *that* point!

      • Mooser on June 7, 2015, 10:46 am

        ‘….and we’ll be frum, frum, frum until Jehovah takes the Torah away!”

    • eljay on June 3, 2015, 9:38 pm

      || RoHa: And, totally off topic, for the sake of those who take an interest in such things, here is the latest Australian contribution to civilisation and the spread of humane culture. ||

      Impressive! In exchange, I offer this:

      Bacon Wrapped Crust DEEP!DEEP!™ Dish Pizza

      The Bacon Wrapped Crust DEEP!DEEP!™ Dish Pizza is a large 8-corner DEEP!DEEP!™ Dish pepperoni and bacon pizza with a crispy crust wrapped in three and a half feet of bacon!

      • RoHa on June 3, 2015, 10:57 pm

        For bacon lovers, perhaps?

        With these cultural advances, the prospects for the human race look very rosy indeed.

      • eljay on June 4, 2015, 7:13 am

        || RoHa: For bacon lovers, perhaps? ||

        It’s hard to know for sure. ;-)

      • Mooser on June 4, 2015, 6:40 pm

        “It’s hard to know for sure. ;-)

        Very true.
        Sometimes, my view of the future is obscured by smoke from the grill or barbecue. But it is averred by sages that there are wise men who can see the shape of coming events reflected in the shimmering surface of the deep-fat at frying temperature.

      • Mooser on June 12, 2015, 12:58 pm

        I’ve been so preoccupied with my organ transplant (I finally bought a good vintage A-100 and Leslie) it hadn’t occurred to me, but when nobody loves you and and everybody hates you, or me, deep-fried worms would really be good.

  12. Bornajoo on June 4, 2015, 5:26 am

    Tokyobk, I grew up having to wear a kippah nearly every day and that was in the 60s and 70s in London. I never experienced anything anti semitic, neither did my brothers or anyone I knew in that community. Sure there must have been incidents but every minority community suffered racism of some sort and especially back in that era. But I remember very well that it was nothing in comparison to what black people, Indian and Pakistani people had to endure.

    Yes my nephew also wore a kippah every day to his Jewish school and as far as I know (and I would have known) that he never ever experienced any anything anti semitic. It’s more like them growing up hating the Arabs for no good reason and being suspicious of everyone else.

    My older brother still lives in the most orthodox Jewish area in north London and he would know if there were any real anti semitic incidents but there really are not. However they do try and invent them from time to time and they also compile their own statistics directly which they then supply to the police directly (The CST – Community Security Trust) which when examined closely completely falls apart!

    The Zionists will shortly appear on this thread and tell me that my own real life history is simply fake and that my family and I MUST HAVE experienced anti semitism! Yes this is what they do, they actually tell you that your real life history and experiences are fake, untrue, made up, because I’m inflicted with Jew hating disease.

    If you look at this video (the whole 6 mins is worth watching) but from 2.17 where you get the 2 boys and then the 3 girls. Those 3 girls are the carbon copy Israeli version of my nieces. This is how they speak and behave. And they learned all that living in inner London in one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world. Zionist indoctrination is unbelievably effective. It’s primary ingredient is fear. Once you establish that fear you can stick the rest of the indoctrination in, as much as you like and as often as you like.

    • just on June 4, 2015, 10:10 am

      Many thanks for your comments on this thread, Bornajoo. Thanks for the video as well.

  13. tokyobk on June 4, 2015, 8:20 am

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the video, Bornajoo.

  14. zeqil on June 5, 2015, 5:06 am

    Very interesting article to read. Its something like i was traveling through your mind passing your thought. You have executed it well , Thanks.

  15. traintosiberia on June 5, 2015, 11:09 pm

    “Professor Wistrich frequently likened today’s radical anti-Zionism to anti-Jewish sentiments in Europe before the Holocaust. In the journal The Jewish Political Studies Review, he wrote in 2004, “The most virulent expressions of this ‘exterminationist’ or genocidal anti-Zionism have come from the Arab-Muslim world, which is the historical heir of the earlier 20th century forms of totalitarian anti-Semitism in Hitler’s Germany and the Soviet Union.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/28/world/europe/robert-s-wistrich-scholar-of-anti-semitism-dies-at-70.html?_r=0

    God gave this guy a tongue and he twisted it to his bitterest revolting level of satisfaction.
    Guilt is difficult to carry but lot easier to project on other and then expect redemption . That never came from Arab or from the inheritors of the 5000 yrs of history that he never lost sight of and never forgave.
    Do they hate the Jews? He died with that deep conviction in his guilty ridden psyche . Alternative was unforgiving loneliness in The State of Israel permeated with de ades old deep moral and ethical insufficiencies .
    So is it surprising to hear the voices of the little child or the deep pocketed unethical politicians saying the same argot : Arabs hate us just for they being Arab and we being Jewish ?. One set of belief of disdain is matched by another set of belief of belonging to the special exalted one.

  16. MHughes976 on June 6, 2015, 5:39 pm

    I’ve just been reading our report by Kate via Charlotte Silver about the attack on two Palestinian families. At our sort of distance we can react to these things with a degree of calm and reflection and recognise that people who do these things in the name of the Zionist enterprise are not typical of Jewish people in any morally significant sense, not even perhaps typical of all self-proclaimed Zionists. But for those in the midst of it, could we really expect all violent and unbalancing emotions, such as hatred, to be avoided?

    • Mooser on June 7, 2015, 10:51 am

      ” that people who do these things in the name of the Zionist enterprise are not typical of Jewish people in any morally significant sense,”

      Excuse me “MHughes” but are you Jewish? Well, I am, and I have been told all my life that the “people who do those things” are not only Jewish they are the best Jews we have to offer, the most committed, and the most active towards securing our future! And you wish to excommunicate them from the faith? There’s a name for that, and it’s not a pretty one, MHughes.

      Please, I beg you, MHughes, give them “the benefit of the doubt” (pace Yonah!). They say they are Jewish, and good Jews too, excuse me, who are you to disagree?

      • RoHa on June 7, 2015, 9:05 pm

        And there it is again.

        On MW, Jews regularly excommunicate other Jews (including you, Mooser), but, when a Christian tries it, suddenly we get “are you Jewish?” It’s “Jews only ” again, isn’t it?

        I say MHughes has as much right to excommunicate Jews as any other poster on MW, Jewish or not.

      • Mooser on June 8, 2015, 10:49 am

        “I say MHughes has as much right to excommunicate Jews as any other poster on MW, Jewish or not.”

        You are absolutely right, “RoHa” and I appreciate you taking the time to correct me. I must have succumbed to a moment of irritation, and I apologize to “MHughes”.
        Now that I’ve had time to think about it, my attitude has changed. Mutual excommunication is the answer! I excommunicate you, you excommunicate me, and before you know it, the problem is solved.
        This won’t happen again. I apologize to “MHughes”, and from now on, I take the broad, flexible outlook.

  17. RoHa on June 6, 2015, 11:14 pm

    “recognise that people who do these things in the name of the Zionist enterprise are not typical of Jewish people in any morally significant sense, ”

    But when I also see how many Jewish organizations and individuals support Israel, rush to rebut or suppress criticism, and strain to offer justifications, or at least whitewash, for Israel’s crimes, I find it difficult (even in moments of calm reflection) not to suspect that the people who do those things are extreme examples of a moral flaw that is widespread among Jewish people.

    Though the same flaw might be widespread among humanity in general.

    • MHughes976 on June 7, 2015, 4:07 pm

      Well, Mooser, there actually were occasional, throwaway family remarks, which I remember from my early years, that some of our forebears were Jewish despite our hardcore Anglicanism. There were mentions of an ancestor ‘who did not know the Lord’s Prayer’ – aha! Hohum! So maybe we’re distant cousins, which I would consider an honour.
      I wouldn’t share the view of those who told you that people who beat up on others regardless of age or sex were the best of their race, but I dare say it is widely believed.
      I think I meant that it still does not make sense to treat individuals who are Jewish as, for that reason, in some degree responsible for the vicious behaviour concerned and therefore the proper targets of negative sentiments, such as hatred.
      But when you’re involved in these things every day and the humiliation imposed on ‘people like you’ must constantly strike you, what can we suppose that you will feel? We have evidence in this article that negative sentiments do not normally extend to defenceless, plainly well-intententioned people who happen to be Jewish, which is good, but maybe it is not the whole story.

      • Mooser on June 7, 2015, 5:59 pm

        There’s a full range of behavior among Jewish people. We are just like everybody else, only more so, in many cases. Just don’t take me as any kind of exemplar, tho, as I am hardly the best of the race.

      • Sibiriak on June 7, 2015, 7:25 pm

        Mooser: ” … I am hardly the best of the race.”

        Perhaps not, but you have exemplary genes.

      • RoHa on June 8, 2015, 1:58 am

        Levi-Strauss?

      • Mooser on June 8, 2015, 10:56 am

        “Levi-Strauss?”

        Enough of this blue genes talk!

  18. Walid on June 7, 2015, 9:47 am

    Speaking of hate on another topic, some bad news for Islamophobes, especially French ones. Latest PEW research poll of June 2015 show that the popularity of Moslems in France actually increased after the January 2015 bogus Charlie Hebdo attack. Seems same thing happened in the US in the aftermath of 911; attacks appears to be backfiring:

    “Ratings of Muslims rise in France after Charlie Hebdo, just as in U.S. after 9/11

    By Richard Wike
    .
    The attack on the Paris offices of the satirical publication Charlie Hebdo in January was the most devastating terrorist incident in France since the Algerian War more than five decades ago. Two French-born Muslim brothers affiliated with al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula carried out the attack, killing 12 people and injuring 11 more.

    French Views of Muslims, 2014-15In the aftermath, there has been considerable debate in France about the extent of radicalization among the country’s nearly 5 million Muslims, and more broadly about the role of Islam in a country famous for its secularism. However, there has been no backlash against Muslims in French public opinion. In fact, attitudes toward Muslims have become slightly more positive over the past year.

    A new Pew Research Center survey finds that 76% in France say they have a favorable view of Muslims living in their country, similar to the 72% registered in 2014. Meanwhile, the percentage with a very favorable opinion of Muslims has increased significantly, rising from 14% last year to 25% today. Attitudes toward Muslims tend to be more positive on the political left in France, but ratings improved across the ideological spectrum.

    The pattern is similar to what we found in the U.S. following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Favorable views of Muslim Americans rose from 45% in March 2001 to 59% in November of that year. The increase took place across partisan and ideological groups, with the biggest improvement occurring among conservative Republicans.”

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/03/ratings-of-muslims-in-france-and-us/

  19. traintosiberia on June 7, 2015, 12:50 pm

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/05/israel-gcc-alliance-shall-named/
    Neocons have succeeded in gaining control of the corrupt Arab elite . Corruption is what allows the Zionist to make inroads and to survive. Its the best medium for the parasites . US congress both houses and the Pentagon are the 2 cesspool of breathtaking unbelievable level of corruption .
    So now Israel will periodically remind Arabs as they do Anericans of past antisemitism ,extract guilt out of nonexistent gas bubble around the imagination and extract more wealth . Given the track record,they would also offer support to Jihadist as long as they accept the political religious positions of Zionism ,keep on fighting the Royals and divert attention to Europe,Asia or Africa.
    It is reminiscent of 19 th century European fights among and each against other . Its the early 20 th century play book that is being read to Arab.
    Neocons have won. In return we won’t hear much about Islamofasism or ” the Arab hate us” .

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