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‘NYT’ columnist says killing Palestinian civilians is… good for Palestinians

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The New York Times has always had a double standard on human rights, but they usually aren’t very open about it.  They condemn Russian bombing as horrible war crimes, but criticize similar US bombing as mistakes and pretty much ignore Israeli bombing of Gaza. But they don’t come right out and say that killing is good or that it is cruel to be kind and kind to be cruel and Palestinians need to be shot for their own good.

Until now.

Columnist Shmuel Rosner says essentially this, and the Times published him three days ago: “Israel Needs to Protect Its Borders. By Any Means Necessary.”

I will… declare coldly: Israel had a clear objective when it was shooting, sometimes to kill, well-organized “demonstrators” near the border. Israel was determined to prevent these people — some of whom are believed to have been armed, most apparently encouraged by their radical government — from crossing the fence separating Israel from Gaza. That objective was achieved…

This was not a peaceful act of protest. This was a provocation by an organization known to engage in acts of terrorism. Thus, Israel had no choice but to treat it as an attempt not just to violate its territorial integrity but also to attack it…

The worst is when Rosner justifies the killings as a good thing for Palestinians, and an act of kindness to what Rosner thinks are the enlightened Palestinians.

I believe Israel’s current policy toward Gaza ultimately benefits not only Israel but also the Palestinians.

Of course, it does not benefit the Palestinians who dream about “returning,” or in other words, about eliminating Israel. But it is the only way forward for those who have more realistic expectations. The people of Gaza are miserable. They deserve sympathy and pity. But looking for Israel to remedy their problems will only exacerbate their misery. Expecting Israel to solve their problem will only lead them to delay what they must do for themselves…

[O]nly an Israel that has the ability to feel secure about its borders could engage in any serious talks with the Palestinians..

The Jewish sages had a famous, if not necessarily pleasant, saying that went something like this: Those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind…

Rosner should wear a sheet over his head and burn crosses. You really would have to publish a defense of suicide bombing to balance this.

The stable of Times pro-Israel propagandists probably don’t realize how hateful this kind of argument is. Columnist Bret Stephens and opinion editor Bari Weiss clearly agree with it. David Brooks is bigoted toward Palestinians, though he has enough decency to be ashamed of the shooting. The liberal columnists are chickenshit. Though to her credit, Michelle Goldberg mentioned her borderline anti-Zionism in one piece and described Israel as an apartheid state and expressed sympathy for the Palestinian right of return in another.

There is no excuse for the New York Times that it has nobody to the left of Goldberg or Gail Collins. And meanwhile, Bari Weiss is an apologist for murder and racism.

The other night she told Bill Maher that Hamas had set a “trap” for Israel by rushing the fence on the day of the embassy move. Palestinians don’t really care about the embassy move, she said; Hamas worked the embassy angle, purely in an effort to manipulate international media. (Transcript from the Daily Beast):

“Bill, I love you, but the riots were not caused by the embassy move. They’re not linked. When Hamas attacked Israel in 2008, when Hamas attacked Israel in 2012, when it attacked Israel in 2014, the embassy was in Tel Aviv all of those times… They intentionally moved up the day so that it would coincide with the day of the embassy move so that we would all be disgusted and heartbroken when we saw this horrible split-screen of Ivanka Trump, looking like she was at a country club, next to poor, desperate people dying in Gaza…

“And I’m just saying, let’s not fall for a trap that is being set by a theocratic, authoritarian group that are sending women and children to be human shields.”

Notice the utter lack of humanity in the description of the poor Palestinian pawns in Gaza. Imagine anyone saying anything so crudely dismissive of Black Lives Matter protesters in the U.S., or feminist demonstrators, or a civil rights demonstration.

Declan Walsh, the Cairo bureau chief for the Times who has been reporting from Gaza, obviously thinks the 50 Hamas members argument is silly.  He was in the hospital interviewing wounded Palestinians about whether it was worth it; and so he sees them as human beings, not as cardboard terrorist stereotypes. The 50 Hamas members who were killed were all unarmed and many were just supporters, he reports.

But even his story had a bit of spin. Many of the wounded he says think it was worth it but his story focuses on those who are bitter and think the demonstrations were a mistake and blame Hamas. It is not our place as Americans to take sides in an internal Gazan debate about the worth of the demonstrations, but the story emphasized those who were bitter, providing fodder for Times readers to blame Hamas. We wonder if that spin is there deliberately, maybe from an editor. Or maybe it is just how the NYT works: Distract attention from the chief villain.

The problem here is bigger than some racist or cowardly columnists.  The fundamental issue is that the Times as an institution doesn’t see the problem with publishing articles that defend the shooting of unarmed Palestinians.  They would never publish a piece advocating deliberate killing of Israeli civilians as a way to force Israel to change.  This is because, subconsciously or not, they don’t see Palestinians as human beings in quite the same way that Israeli Jews are human.

About Phil Weiss and Donald Johnson

Phil Weiss and Donald Johnson are NY writers and regular contributors to this site

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60 Responses

  1. Edward Q
    Edward Q
    May 22, 2018, 2:41 pm

    The NYT is Israel’s willing executioner.

  2. John O
    John O
    May 22, 2018, 2:49 pm

    Well said, Phil and Don (Everley brothers de nos jours?).

    Here in the UK, after the ludicrous decision to leave the EU, another border problem – that with Ireland – is starting to cause the same problem: increasing hostility towards the Irish. The nationalism that caused the two world wars is reasserting itself, with a vengeance.

  3. annie
    annie
    May 22, 2018, 3:18 pm

    it’s worth noting Rosner is an israeli columnist. they might as well just spoon feed israel to us 24/7.

  4. Kay24
    Kay24
    May 22, 2018, 3:34 pm

    The New York Times has lost all credibility. It has got a refined version of Hasbara, to help Israel spread it’s propaganda, and keep casting blame on those they occupy, steal from, and kill. Shame.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      May 23, 2018, 10:44 am

      Must read!!!

      https://electronicintifada.net/content/future-nakba/24236

      “The future of the Nakba”
      By Joseph Massad The Electronic Intifada, 13 May 2018

    • genesto
      genesto
      May 23, 2018, 6:36 pm

      Whenever one of my ‘liberal’ friends, who’s ignorant on Israel/Palestine, tries to tell me that the NYT is the best newspaper out there, I cringe and have all I can do to explode. I may not tell him/her about the heavy Zionist bias, at least not right off. But, I do hasten to remind him/her about Judith Miller’s ‘leadership’ in duping the American public into supporting the Iraq invasion by telling out-and-out lies (before they got around to firing her ass but much too late, that is).

      As far as I’m concerned, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the NYT’s motto should be ‘all the news that’s shit to print’!

  5. Tom Callaghan
    Tom Callaghan
    May 22, 2018, 3:42 pm

    Roger Cohen can, at times, be close to fair on Israel-Palestinian matters.

    In the lead up to the Iran Deal he wrote a great piece that went pretty much like this: “Do the Iran Deal. Iran is a youthful hopeful society. Embrace the hope. Do not imprison it.”

    I quote it from memory because I have quoted it a number of times in things I have written.

    http://www.wednesdayswars.com

  6. eljay
    eljay
    May 22, 2018, 3:47 pm

    … Rosner …

    … The Jewish sages had a famous, if not necessarily pleasant, saying that went something like this: Those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind…

    I completely agree with Mr. Rosner: The world should stop being kind to cruel – and oppressive, colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist – Israel.

    • JWalters
      JWalters
      May 22, 2018, 7:28 pm

      You make an important point.

      • annie
        annie
        May 25, 2018, 3:32 pm

        “necessarily pleasant”?

        like poison mixed with sugar? that kind of necessarily pleasant?

  7. Keith
    Keith
    May 22, 2018, 4:58 pm

    BARI WEISS- “When Hamas attacked Israel in 2008, when Hamas attacked Israel in 2012, when it attacked Israel in 2014….”

    Jeez, what a Zionazi. Yeah, and when Poland attacked Germany in 1939 according to Hitler. That this total lack of intellectual honesty or morality is highlighted in the media indicates just how bad things are.

    As for the ongoing denigration of Hamas as a terrorist organization (listed as such by our State Department), I offer the following.

    “I am no stranger to Hamas. To me the movement is not an academic pursuit or abstract intellectual curiosity that only takes shape whenever it confronts the brute force that is Israel…be it in the 365 square kilometer (141 sq mi) confines of Gaza or in the streets and universities of the West Bank. To the contrary, I have been privileged to represent more than a few of its leaders for some two decades. On occasion, the movement has sought my counsel on issues of international law prior to making its decision on how best to proceed with a given matter.
    ….
    Contrary to the Israeli and Western effort to reduce Hamas to a collective of essentially unschooled or unsophisticated foreign born so-called Islamists, nothing could be further from the truth. Hamas is a movement born of Palestine, composed of Palestinians who were raised on the very streets where the blood of their people and families, has been lost to the occupation terror imposed by Israel. For the many who suffer from a now decade old blockade of Gaza–with its lack of food, water, medicine and mobility–Hamas and their families have known the same isolation and paid a like price.

    Comprised, originally, of physicians, scholars, academics, lawyers, scientists, artists, religious leaders and farmers, it is a movement that evolved of necessity, born in the vacuum of what would obviously become the failed vision of Oslo.” (Stanley L. Cohen) https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/05/22/broken-dreams-and-lost-lives-israel-gaza-and-the-hamas-card/

    • JWalters
      JWalters
      May 22, 2018, 8:19 pm

      Thank you for that.

      Bari Weiss’ dishonesty is so thorough it doesn’t matter exactly which rotten motives drive her. No pretense is credible.

    • Kay24
      Kay24
      May 23, 2018, 6:00 am

      I watched her go around in the media, and she looks a harmless woman, until she opens her mouth and speaks just like hasbara. She seems to be a favorite on Bill Maher, the other zionist.

    • lonely rico
      lonely rico
      May 23, 2018, 12:59 pm

      When Hamas attacked Israel in 2008, when Hamas attacked Israel in 2012, when it attacked Israel in 2014

      Bari dreaming of the good old days,
      when the noble warriors of the IDF proved their courage,
      defending the Jewish state,
      murdering Palestinian children.

  8. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    May 22, 2018, 5:55 pm

    “This is because, subconsciously or not, they don’t see Palestinians as human beings in quite the same way that Israeli Jews are human”

    And it is fine and manly for Jewish Israeli “heroes” to use knives/machetes against their enemies but if Palestinians use knives they are “bloodthirsty murderous terrorists” which is only to be expected because they are not human beings.

    Source: Israel’s Sacred Terrorism by Livia Rokach

    The following is excerpted from Meir Har-Tzion’s Diary, published by Levin-Epstein, Ltd., Tel Aviv, 1969. It describes an Israeli raid in Gaza during the early 1950s.

    The wide, dry riverbed glitters in the moonlight. We advance, carefully, along the mountain slope. Several houses can be seen. Bushes and shrubbery sway in the breeze, casting their shadows on the ground. In the distance we can see three lights and hear the sounds of Arab music coming out of the homes immersed in darkness. We split up into three groups of four men each. Two groups make their way to the immense refugee camp to the south of our position. The other group marches towards the lonely house in the flat area north of Wadi Gaza. We march forward, trampling over green fields, wading through water canals as the moon bathes us in its scintillating light. Soon, however, the silence will be shattered by bullets, explosions, and the screams of those who are now sleeping peacefully. We advance quickly and enter one of the houses “Mann Haatha?” (Arabic for “Who’s there?”)

    We leap towards the voices. Fearing and trembling, two Arabs are standing up against the wall of the building. They try to escape. I open fire. An ear piercing scream fills the air. One man falls to the ground, while his friend continues to run. Now we must act we have no time to lose. We make our way from house to house as the Arabs scramble about in confusion. Machine guns rattle, their noise mixed with a terrible howling. We reach the main thoroughfare of the camp. The mob of fleeing Arabs grows larger. The other group attacks from the opposite direction. The thunder of hand grenades echoes in the distance. We receive an order to retreat. The attack has come to an end.

    On the following morning, the headlines will read: “The refugee camp of Al-Burj near Gaza was attacked. The camp has been serving as a base for infiltrators into Israeli territory. ‘Twenty people were killed and another twenty were wounded.”

    .. . . A telephone line blocks our way. We cut it and continue. A narrow path leads along the slope of a hill. The column marches forward in silence. Stop! A few rocks roll down the hill. I catch sight of a man surveying the silence. Gibly crawls over to me, “Har, for God’s sake, a knife!!” His clenched teeth glitter in the dark and his whole body is tight, his mind alert, “For God’s sake,” . . . I put my tommy down and unsheath my machete. We crawl towards the lone figure as he begins to sing a trilled Arab tune. Soon the singing will turn into a death moan. I am shaking, every muscle in my body is tense. This is my first experience with this type of weapon. Will I be able to do it?
    We draw closer. There he stands, only a few meters in front of us. We leap. Gibly grabs him and I plunge the knife deep into his back. The blood pours over his striped cotton shirt. With not a second to lose, I react instinctively and stab him again. The body groans, struggles and then becomes quiet and still.

    From an interview with Meir Har-Tzion, Ha’aretz weekly supplement, 9 November 1965:

    “Pangs of conscience? No. Why should I have any?” The man’s blue eyes open wide in amazement. “It’s easy to kill a man with a rifle. You press the trigger and that’s that. But a knife, why, that’s something else-that’s a real fight. Even if you are successful, you come close to death. The enemy’s blade is as close as the air. It’s a fantastic feeling. You realize you’re a man.”

    Back in the 1950`s when US taxpayer funded carpet bombing was not an option the poor Chosen dears had little choice but to get up close and personal when it came to Gaza and by the sound of it they got a buzz from the knifing. Nowadays they would foul their underwear if they were ordered to engage in street by street fighting or hand to hand combat.

  9. JWalters
    JWalters
    May 22, 2018, 7:24 pm

    The center of Rosner’s picture is his assumption that the motive of the crowd is not a legitimate protest, but instead is an immediate military threat against Israel. To see reality this way requires ignoring a large amount of information. Zionists are never willing to discuss this ignored information. They avoid all face-to-face debates to maintain this strategy. They relentlessly stick to their version without consideration of the other, from Jacob Rothschild, on the 100th anniversary of Balfour’s letter to his uncle Walter, down to Rosner at the Times today. This violates a fundamental guideline of all rational analysis, from science to law to common sense. And that is the guideline that ALL evidence shall be considered.

  10. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    May 22, 2018, 8:21 pm

    Rosner;s thinking and words reflect that he has no sense of right and wrong, no ability to empathize , no conscience. A real agent for Israel.

    We know Israel has no boundaries. We also know the only way “forward” is the one state solution.

  11. caladan
    caladan
    May 22, 2018, 8:51 pm

    The Israeli siege of Gaza is a systematic act of military colonialization against an undesirable ethnic population. The aim is extermination.

    The siege is one of the oldest forms of warfare in history. Israel has been maintaining a full spectrum land, air and water blockade upon Gaza. It goes far beyond military occupation. Israel has been waging war upon this pocket of Palestinians since 2007.

    The following reports from United Nations agencies detail the living conditions of the human beings who are imprisoned by Israel within Gaza.

    https://news.un.org/en/story/2017/07/561302-living-conditions-gaza-more-and-more-wretched-over-past-decade-un-finds

    https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/emergency-reports

    https://www.ochaopt.org/

    https://www.ochaopt.org/reports

    The most important point from the above is that Gaza has been declared “unlivable” ten and half years into the Israeli siege.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/07/living-conditions-worsen-10-year-gaza-siege-170712045047448.html

    Tel Aviv knows this. They are just as capable of reading UN reports as anyone else. And of course Israel has full spectrum surveillance of the territory.

    The only conclusion is that Tel Aviv is killing the people of Gaza by *design* via the age-old method of military siege.

  12. Spring Renouncer
    Spring Renouncer
    May 22, 2018, 11:45 pm

    What a disgusting column. It makes me want to puke. How can people maintain such moral inconsistency and hypocrisy within themselves without seeming bothered?

    At the heart of American media’s support for Israel is the fact that 21st century America is not what liberals want to see it as: not a land of equal opportunity and liberty, but a stolen place: an empire. Has any empire in history achieved anything near morality? Which empire has been able to reform itself from within?

    Some might compare the U.S. favorably to apartheid South Africa or Israel currently, but it is actually a case more extreme and “successful” than either, for the natives here were already totally destroyed and their land settled irreversibly 150 years ago; slaves were used and then discarded to poverty; foreign opponents have been bombed, nuked and otherwise conquered. Whatever legal equality or “justice” that has been achieved here in the past 100 years is just etching on the surface, an attempt to beautify empire.

    Expecting positive change in Israel and Palestine (or anywhere else globally) to spring from America – or from Jewish or Gentile Americans – might be blind optimism, or just ludicrous. Though I wish it were possible, there is not much in our history that suggests otherwise. For example, though liberal baby-boomers like to see their college activism as responsible for the fall of White Rule in S.A., the objective truth is that the tiny island of Cuba did more to defeat racism in Southern Africa from its revolution to 1991 than the U.S. did ever.

    When you are born and live at the center of global power it can be easy to develop grandiose expectations for your country, its people and its destiny. But it is possible that change will come from elsewhere. That as the US weakens and contracts relative to other powers its dependencies – like Israel – come under greater pressure. But maybe that’s wishful thinking too…

    • Donald
      Donald
      May 23, 2018, 10:19 am

      Not sure if you meant Rosner’s piece or ours when saying it was a disgusting column, , but on the issue of us being an empire I think you are right. The underlying reason Israel gets so much support for its actions is that America has the same history and still harbors the same attitudes. The Lobby would get nowhere if that were not the case.

      • Donald
        Donald
        May 23, 2018, 10:45 am

        Also, my own agenda, so to speak, is noninterventionism. I want the US to stop invading and bombing and sanctioning and blockading other countries and I also want us to stop supporting the criminal behavior of our allies. In this case that means we should stop arming the Israelis and stop defending their actions and stop saying they have the right to defend themselves every time they kill Palestinians.

      • Spring Renouncer
        Spring Renouncer
        May 23, 2018, 11:38 am

        Sorry for the ambiguity… I meant that I was disgusted by the NYT column described here – not Mondoweiss!

      • Donald
        Donald
        May 23, 2018, 1:24 pm

        Thanks for clarifying.

  13. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    May 23, 2018, 8:19 am

    The Israeli (Jewish Zionist) strategy as expressed by the various governments since Hamas seized power in 2007 has been to squeeze Gaza in order to squeeze Hamas. Since the nature of Hamas is not to give up power, they are basically betting on regime change, which seems to me to be a long shot. To call this “kind to be cruel” is itself a form of cruelty.

    To compare the Great March of Return to Black Lives Matter is a type of facile analogy that is useful for those who are appealing to left leaning Democrats. You support Black Lives Matter, you should also support the right to demonstrate by Great March of Return.

    This is a pretense that Gaza is a normal place. It is not. Gaza’s abnormalcy was born when Israel was born and thus those who support Israel’s birth and the strict means of exile entailed in that birth automatically, at the same time, support the brutal abnormalcy of Gaza. (The abnormalcy of Gaza has an aspect of playing to the cameras as well: The tactic of keeping the refugees in camp for 70 years is artificial when compared to the rest of the history of the world particularly recent history. I think it is a tactic that has “worked”, but it is not a normal development, it is artificial.)

    Gaza is a prison. America is not a prison.

    Comparing Haifa demonstrators to Black Lives Matter would be valid. The violence of the cops and the system against Arab Israelis aka Palestinian Israelis is a scandal and seems to shed light on the attitude of callousness and cruelty of the police/military of Israel towards all Arabs. But Gaza is not Haifa and it is pretense to compare it to Black Lives Matter.

    The bias of this post by Johnson and Weiss is shown in the next to last paragraph when dealing with the reportage of Declan Walsh. Did Johnson and Weiss offer us alternative links to people in the street interviews in Gaza, or people in the hospital at Gaza? No. Based upon their bias they assume that the NYT has skewed this article. Based upon the assumption that since all their other NYT coverage has been tilted against Palestinians, Walsh’s is as well. This is not criticism, this is playing a guessing game. Bring proof that the presentation is tilted or that the NYT mishandled Walsh’s copy or else maintain a little journalistic decorum and remain mum.

    This Great March of Return has shown Israel’s cruelty. It has also shown that Gaza is still occupied. I favor arranging a modus vivendi with Hamas, because of the suffering inflicted upon the Gazan Palestinians as a result of the siege and attempt to pressure Hamas through its population. This has not been the policy of Bibi and will not be so soon. Because of the general context: particularly Hezbollah’s rockets, the policy is: No more. we will not allow gaza turn into another southern lebanon. To those who dream of Israel’s demise or of a sudden turnaround of American or Israeli policy that sees the undoing of 1948, turning gaza into another southern lebanon is a lofty goal. but it is clear vision to see that to Israel replicating Hezbollah in Gaza is a bad move. Despite this I favor a modus vivendi with Hamas, but it is easy to see that in context of the region the tendency to think NO! is understandable.

    But it should not be termed as “kind to be cruel”.

    • patrickb57
      patrickb57
      May 23, 2018, 11:28 am

      There might not have been any rockets fired on Israel by Hezbollah had Israel never bombarded. invaded and occupied South Lebanon, killing and maiming thousands. Hats off to Hezbollah.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      May 23, 2018, 6:48 pm

      “This Great March of Return has shown Israel’s cruelty. It has also shown that Gaza is still occupied.”

      Sure “Yonah”. When Gazans give up the occupation, then Israel will stop the cruelty, right?

  14. Donald
    Donald
    May 23, 2018, 9:58 am

    That was a confusing comment, Yonah, so I will focus your criticism of our mild criticism of the Declan Walsh piece.

    First, I considered it the weakest part and considered deleting it. Overall Declan Walsh’s piece was good and maybe we should have been clearer on that point. But the evidence for our claim of bias is in the article. We aren’t contesting his reporting, just the spin in the last paragraphs. Walsh says “ many” in the hospital “ insist” that the protest was worth it, but he focuses his attention on those who are embittered and quotes one of them. I don’t doubt the reporting, but I think the emphasis on the skeptics fits in with how the NYT tends to cover stories. But, yes, the couple of sentences devoted to that might weaken the piece. It gave you an excuse to ignore the central point, which is the institutional bias at the NYT. They have now published four people ( Bari Weiss would be a fifth, but I think she has only said this elsewhere) who think it was okay for Israel to shoot the protestors. I don’t think it would cross their minds to publish even one piece arguing in favor of terror attacks on Israeli civilians, but arguing for the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians is within their range of permissible viewpoints.

    It actually disgusts me a little that you focused on the Walsh portion. I think the criticism is reasonable, but you clearly latched onto it as proof of our bias. We are talking about the NYT publishing justifications and endorsements for a massacre of civilians and rather than focus on that, you look for any and every excuse to dodge the issue.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      May 23, 2018, 11:37 am

      , “you look for any and every excuse to dodge the issue.”

      That’s “Yonah’s” bottomless pilpul vial. All you can swallow, one price.

    • eljay
      eljay
      May 23, 2018, 12:53 pm

      || Donald Johnson: That was a confusing comment … you look for any and every excuse to dodge the issue. ||

      The Art of War Yonah

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      May 24, 2018, 5:16 am

      Hey Donald,
      Maybe your rhetoric is heart felt and gives strength to your own soul, but i have had too much experience with the overwrought emotionalism of religious types to recognize the toxic effect your rhetoric has on me. have a nice life.

      • Donald
        Donald
        May 24, 2018, 10:15 am

        Yonah, I think you see the brutality of Israel’s behavior and since everything at this blog drives you nuts, it seems to me that you would do more good making suggestions to ease the blockade to fellow Israel supporters. Proposing it here will immediately make people see the unfairness of treating Gazans as needing to be under a weapons blockade, but not Israel. Personally I would prefer stopping all weapons transfers everywhere. Anyway, your proposal would be a big step away from the current extremely cruel system but proposing it here does nothing. Maybe you do this already, but I would think you would want to be arguing for your proposal with Israelis.

        As for rhetoric and emotionalism, that might be true, but emotionalism on this subject comes with the territory and you display it too. I acknowledged that maybe the criticism of Walsh should have been left out, but once again, the point of the piece is that the NYT published four essays defending the killing of Gazan protestors and it is hard to imagine them publishing a piece defending the deliberate killing of Israelis. I think that as a decent human being you know this.

      • Donald
        Donald
        May 24, 2018, 10:23 am

        Here is a careful paragraph by paragraph dismantling of the Rosner piece, way more detailed than ours.

        https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/05/propaganda-101-how-to-defend-a-massacre

        But our point was slightly different. We took for granted that any decent person could tell that Rosner’s piece was morally awful— the question was why the NYT would publish it and three others almost as bad when they would never publish four pieces defending terror attacks on Israelis right after, say, a bus bombing that killed dozens.

  15. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    May 23, 2018, 10:03 am

    @Yonah Friedman
    “Despite this I favor a modus vivendi with Hamas”

    I am fascinated by your idea of a “Modus Vivendi with Hamas”. Can you please explain the basic structure and mechanics of this.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      May 23, 2018, 3:51 pm

      OSSinev, free flow of marketable goods out of Gaza to Israel and elsewhere. Free flow of people out of Gaza to world destinations. Third party inspections of goods brought into Gaza, with limitations to avoid a repeat of hezbollah’s rockets. Some have suggested creating man made islands where these items would be inspected. Others have suggested such a place (for inspections) can be set up on already existing territory.

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 23, 2018, 6:35 pm

        || Yonah Fredman: OSSinev, free flow of marketable goods out of Gaza to Israel and elsewhere. Free flow of people out of Gaza to world destinations. Third party inspections of goods brought into Gaza, with limitations to avoid a repeat of hezbollah’s rockets. Some have suggested creating man made islands where these items would be inspected. Others have suggested such a place (for inspections) can be set up on already existing territory. ||

        So…Gaza remains a prison and Israel remains its warden, but the inmates:
        – get to make and sell license plates; and
        – are occasionally granted short-term parole.

        Nice.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        May 24, 2018, 5:19 am

        eljay- Gaza will be solved after the west bank is solved or simultaneous with such a resolution, which obviously is not on the near horizon. until then, yes, gaza will remain a prison in terms of importation of goods.

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 24, 2018, 8:06 am

        || Yonah Fredman: eljay- Gaza will be solved after the west bank is solved or simultaneous with such a resolution, which obviously is not on the near horizon. until then, yes, gaza will remain a prison in terms of importation of goods. ||

        Thank you for confirming – in an unusually clear and concise paragraph! – that your vision of a modus vivendi does not include justice, accountability or equality.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 24, 2018, 5:59 pm

        “Thank you for confirming – in an unusually clear and concise paragraph! – that your vision of a modus vivendi does not include justice, accountability or equality.”

        And, of course “Yonah” assumes that Israel will always have the power to do this. That’s the “high” he gets from all the pilpuls he takes, the euphoric feeling that Zionism has it all under control.

  16. patrickb57
    patrickb57
    May 23, 2018, 10:36 am

    The Nazis used whatever measures they deemed necessary to protect the German people and the Aryan race from “contamination.” Rosner must endorse this line of reasoning.

  17. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    May 23, 2018, 12:57 pm

    Every Zionist creep is listened to as he/she explains what Palestinian think/want/intend and who explains that Hamas (T for “terrorists”) want this-and-that (and never mind what non-Hamas Palestinians want); — BUT no Palestinians, not a Hamas apparatchik and not a man-in-the-street is listened to. No Palestinian explaining what Palestinians think/want/intend is listened to, speaks to America from the pages of NYT. And the Zionists have done such a good job that merely hurling the T-bomb suffices to end the discussion. Just as the IDF soldiers hurl the T-bomb before shooting any Palestinian kid, even in the back.

    What a lousy country we live in.

  18. Sulphurdunn
    Sulphurdunn
    May 23, 2018, 1:04 pm

    Since these protests began, Israeli soldiers have shot more than 3,700 people with live fire and killed at least 111 of them. Another 13,000 have been injured by other assorted munitions. The only ballistic weapons used by the protesters to return fire were rocks and kites, and they were a tiny minority.

    It is inconceivable that even the most cynical propagandist could posit the Israeli self-defense argument for such bloodshed and keep a straight face.

  19. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    May 24, 2018, 10:35 am

    @YF
    “free flow of marketable goods out of Gaza to Israel and elsewhere. Free flow of people out of Gaza to world destinations. Third party inspections of goods brought into Gaza, with limitations to avoid a repeat of hezbollah’s rockets. Some have suggested creating man made islands where these items would be inspected. Others have suggested such a place (for inspections) can be set up on already existing territory”

    At least you are having a go which does you some credit and I think it will stand you in good stead eventually in your facing up to the reality of Gaza.
    1) Definition of “free flow” – eg does that mean no random shootings and killing of fishermen trying to harvest potential free flow products in Gazan waters.
    2) Definition of “free flow” ” Free flow of people out of Gaza to world destinations”. Does Israel/Palestine where they come from and where their families still live count as a”world destination”
    Is the free flow one way only ie will they be able to return freely.
    3) The mechanics of your “free flow”. Will Gazans have their own ports/airports (latter for the world destinations of course) ?Or are you talking about these Shangri La “man made islands” where ” Third Parties ” will inspect goods ( as if Israel will ever accept such an arrangement).

    I`m afraid Yonah the more you consider the mechanics the more you will realise that Israel is running the largest concentration camp in History and has absolutely no intention of giving any form of free flow to the inmates goods or otherwise.There isn`t a modus vivendi when it comes to concentration camps. The only exception that springs to mind is the Kapos system in the Third Reich.

    Israel has created this concentration camp and has simply no idea what to do with the nearly 2 million (yes Yonah that`s TWO million ) inmates other than blame Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran and continue with the occasional mini genocides.

    There is no Plan B such as the Utopian one you have dangled.

    And with the Gaza sewage system totally kaput( remember TWO million needing toilets) and the effluent creeping up the coast towards the flesh pots on Israels Riviera Israel is effectively up s..t creek without a paddle.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      May 24, 2018, 12:26 pm

      Free flow- as envisioned here is designed to maximize freedom for Gaza Palestinians while limiting dangers to israel’s security.
      Fishing rights would thus be far freer. (I cannot specify more than that.)
      Those who leave Gaza would be allowed to return without limitation.
      Visiting Israel is not envisioned.
      An airport, unless imports are controlled by a 3rd power, is not envisioned.

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 24, 2018, 1:19 pm

        || Yonah Fredman: … Those who leave Gaza would be allowed to return without limitation.
        Visiting Israel is not envisioned. … ||

        Which parts of non-Gaza Palestine does your vision permit the Palestinians of Prison Gaza to visit freely?

      • Donald
        Donald
        May 24, 2018, 2:33 pm

        There would be no need of a third party for this policy. Nothing stops Israel from imposing a less stringent and less gratuitously cruel blockade. Nothing stops its American supporters from spending more time pushing for this, rather than tone policing Israel’s critics.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 24, 2018, 6:08 pm

        “as envisioned here…not envisioned…not envisioned”

        “Your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions.” Joel 2:28

  20. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    May 24, 2018, 1:42 pm

    @YF
    “Free flow- as envisioned here is designed to maximize freedom for Gaza Palestinians while limiting dangers to israel’s security”

    Sorry Yonah sounds like the same old same old with a splash of Hasbara emulsion.
    NB Definition of free:
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/free

    NB Definition of Discrimination:
    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/discrimination

    NB Definition of Concentration Camp:
    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/concentration-camp

    Back to your “modus vivendi” – any thoughts about the sewage problem which I mentioned and/ or the imminent “uninhabitable” status of Gaza:
    https://news.un.org/en/story/2017/07/561302-living-conditions-gaza-more-and-more-wretched-over-past-decade-un-finds

  21. Cazador
    Cazador
    May 25, 2018, 4:27 pm

    Rustnerd…

    My sincere excuses to all other nerds!

    What a stupid declaration he made!

    He should be sent to Gaza on the next Palestinian March for the Nakba and walk with the Palestinians hundreds of metres away from the fences where Israeli most morale sharp shooters are practicing dayly with real bullets on unarmed Marching Palestinians. Then he could write that it’s good for the Palestinians when both his knees and one elbow will have been shattered to pieces. Mind you, there’s nothing wrong with his knees and elbows. It’s what’s above his shoulders that needs treatment.

    I wonder how much he’s paid to write such idiocies… A lot I’d venture!

  22. niass2
    niass2
    May 29, 2018, 9:15 am

    I read the NYT in college. My son never will since its now just fit for a Parakeet to peer down on in his/her cage. Propaganda isn’t news. You know what else is frightening? That guy looks a little like me, except the light eyes.

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