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The chimera of British anti-Semitism (and how not to fight it if it were real)

Middle East
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The current hysteria engulfing the British Labour Party resolves itself into a pair of interrelated, if discrete, premises: Anti-Semitism in British society at large and the Labour Party in particular have reached crisis proportions. If neither of these premises can be sustained, then the hysteria is a fabrication. In fact, no evidence has been adduced to substantiate either of them; on the contrary, all the evidence points in the opposite direction. The rational conclusion is that the brouhaha is a calculated hoax—dare it be said, plot?—to oust Jeremy Corbyn and the principled leftist politics he represents from British public life.

But even if the allegations were true, the solution would still not be to curb freedom of thought in the Labour Party. At its worthiest, the Left-Liberal tradition has attached a unique, primordial value to Truth; but Truth cannot be attained if dissentients, however obnoxious, are silenced. Given the fraught history of anti-Semitism, on the one hand, and its crude manipulation by Jewish elites, on the other, an objective, dispassionate assessment could appear beyond reach. Still, it must be attempted. The prospect of a historic victory for the Left might otherwise be sabotaged as, thus far, Corbyn’s supporters, whether it be from fear, calculation, or political correctness, dare not speak the name of the evil that is afoot.

The degree of anti-Semitism infecting British society has been the subject of numerous polls over a sustained period of time.  These surveys have uniformly, consistently, and unambiguously concluded that anti-Semitism (1) has long been a marginal phenomenon in British society, infecting under 10 percent of the population, (2) is far less salient than hostility to other British minorities, and (3) is less pronounced in the UK than almost anywhere else in Europe. One might suppose that settled matters. But in 2017 the British Institute for Jewish Policy Research (JPR) published a study that purportedly refined conventional wisdom by measuring the “elasticity” of anti-Semitism: that is, not just the percentage of confirmed anti-Semites, but also the prevalence of stereotypes that stigmatize Jews.[1]  It found that, whereas a mere 2-5 percent of the British population can be reckoned anti-Semites, fully 30 percent harbor at least one anti-Semitic stereotype.

Before parsing the study’s data, a couple of truisms warrant recalling.  First, a generalization is something that is held to be generally true; it evidently allows for exceptions. Although Engels the mill-owner generously subsidized his impecunious comrade, it didn’t prevent Marx from generalizing about capitalist “vampires.” Were it not for the heuristic value of broad generalizations, the discipline of sociology would have to close up shop. Its mandate is to map and predict the behavior, on the whole and in the main, of the multitudinous groups and subgroups crosscutting society.  Second, every national/ethnic group is subject to generalizations: “The French are,” “The Italians are,” “The Germans are,” . . .  These generalizations range from more to less flattering to downright vicious, from more to less valid to outright false. It also ought to be obvious that if most positive generalizations raise no hackles, then neither should most negative ones.  The fact that stereotypes of Jews run the full gamut is scarcely cause for alarm; it would be surprising were it otherwise.

In fact, the JPR does not sound an alarm. Whereas some anti-Semitism-mongers have latched onto its findings, the researchers themselves sought to answer a different question: “Why [do] the levels of anxiety found within the UK Jewish population about the scale of contemporary antisemitism appear to be so far out of sync with the low levels of antisemitic sentiment observed among the general UK population?”[2] The study posits that, if British Jews express deep anxiety even as anti-Semites are going the way of the dodo, then it springs from the wider “diffusion” in British society of anti-Semitic stereotypes: “This [diffusion] goes a considerable way towards explaining contemporary Jewish concerns about antisemitism.”[3]

But isn’t that a hasty inference? If residents of Salem, Massachusetts, experienced deep anxiety about witches; if Americans experienced deep anxiety about Communists; if White southerners experienced deep anxiety about Black rapists; if Germans experienced deep anxiety about a “Judeo-Bolshevik” conspiracy; and if, for that matter, Christians experienced deep anxiety about Jewish ritual child-murderers—if an anxiety is widespread, surely it doesn’t necessarily, or even probably, follow that it is a rational fear. It could just as plausibly have been induced by powerful social forces standing to benefit from a deliberately contrived paranoia.  Or, in the case at hand, it could spring from Jewish hypersensitivity—in light of historical experience wholly understandable—to a phantom anti-Semitism (see Woody Allen’s Annie Hall).

The JPR study compiles a seven-item roster of stereotypes. If they are designated anti-Semitic, according to the researchers, that’s because Jews find them hurtful: “Some ideas are known to resonate with Jews as antisemitic, and this study adopts a Jewish perspective on what constitutes antisemitism as its starting point.”[4] But a generalization can plainly be both hurtful and true, as in truth is often a bitter pill to swallow. If the hurtful generalization is true, then—inasmuch as the epithet anti-Semitic signals an irrational animus—it cannot be anti-Semitic.

Some 20 years ago, Daniel Jonah Goldhagen wrote a book purporting to show that the Nazi holocaust originated in an ingrained German predisposition to murder Jews. Were it true, his thesis could not fairly be labeled anti-Teutonic: “There are no prima facie grounds for dismissing Goldhagen’s thesis,” this writer observed at the time. “It is not intrinsically racist or otherwise illegitimate. There is no obvious reason why a culture can’t be fanatically consumed by hatred.”[5] Even as Germans might recoil at this depiction of them, indeed, find it singularly offensive, if the facts vindicated it, then it couldn’t be said to be rooted in irrational malice.  As it happened, the evidence adduced by Goldhagen didn’t support his thesis, but that’s a separate matter.

Consider now several of the stereotypes assembled in the JPR study to gauge the prevalence of British anti-Semitism:

Jews think they are better than other people.  Between their secular success, on the one hand, and their theological “chosenness,” on the other, Jews themselves believe in their group superiority. Isn’t that why they kvell over the Jewish pedigree of the seminal figures of modernity—Marx, Einstein, and Freud—as well as 20 percent of Nobel laureates? What a Jewish child inherits is “no body of law, no body of learning, and no language, and finally, no Lord,” eminent Jewish novelist Philip Roth once observed, “but a kind of psychology: and the psychology can be translated in three words—‘Jews are better.’” A prominent Jewish-American scholar shamelessly gushed: “Jews would have been less than human had they eschewed any notion of superiority altogether,” and “it is extraordinarily difficult for American Jews to expunge the sense of superiority altogether, however much they may try to suppress it.”[6] A popular American publication, in an article under the headline “Are Jews Smarter?,” pondered the genetic evidence.[7]

Lest this be pigeonholed as a peculiarly American-Jewish conceit, prominent Anglo-Jewish author Howard Jacobson speculates that at the heart of anti-Semitism lies Gentile ressentiment of Jewish smarts: “Freud argues that Jews . . . over-evolved their mental and intellectual side. . . . We all have our arrogances and that is a Jewish arrogance. But the idea of the Jew as over-evolved mentally is one of the reasons humanity is in a constant argument with us. We gave the world ethics, morals, the mental life, for which the physical world will never forgive us.”[8] If it’s anti-Semitism to believe that “Jews think they are better than other people,” then most Jews would appear to be infected by this virus.

Jews exploit Holocaust victimhood for their own purposes. Voluble Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban is supposed to have quipped, “There’s no business like Shoah business.” But when this writer published a little book in 2000 entitled The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering,[9] it evoked a torrent of ad hominem attacks. “It is perhaps too easy to write off a critic like Finkelstein as a self-hating Jew,” Jonathan Freedland opined in the Guardian, but that didn’t deter him from traversing this squalid path: “Finkelstein does the anti-Semites’ work for them,” indeed, is  “closer to the people who created the Holocaust than to those who suffered in it.”[10]

Unsurprisingly, Freedland is now among those leading the charge against Corbyn’s alleged anti-Semitism. Be that as it may, nearly two decades have elapsed since the book’s hostile reception, and by now its argument no longer even raises eyebrows as it has passed into a cliché. Whether it be to justify another war of aggression or another massacre of civilians, whether it be to market another schlock Holocaust film or another schlock Holocaust novel, Jews have not hesitated—on the contrary—to wrap themselves in the sacred mantle of Jewish martyrdom. A book by former speaker of the Israeli parliament Avraham Burg decrying Israel’s fixation on the Holocaust casually refers to “the Shoah industry.” It “converts piercing pain into hollowness and kitsch,” Burg observes, and extenuates Israeli crimes:

“American Jews, like Israelis, are . . . raising the Shoah banner high to the sky and exploiting it politically . . . . All is compared to the Shoah, dwarfed by the Shoah, and therefore all is allowed—be it fences, sieges . . . food and water deprivation. . . .  All is permitted because we have been through the Shoah and you will not tell us how to behave.”[11]

Is Burg guilty of anti-Semitism?

Jews have too much power in Britain. The three richest Brits are Jewish.[12] Jews comprise only .5 percent of the population but fully 20 percent of the 100 richest Brits.[13]  Relative both to the general population and to other ethno-religious groups, British Jews are in the aggregate disproportionately wealthy, educated, and professionally successful.[14] These data track closely with the picture elsewhere. Jews comprise only 2 percent of the US population but fully 30 percent of the 100 richest Americans, while Jews enjoy the highest household income among religious groups.[15] Jews comprise less than .2 percent of the world’s population but, of the world’s 200 richest people, fully 20 percent are Jewish.[16]

Jews are incomparably organized as they have created a plethora of interlocking, overlapping, and mutually reinforcing communal and defense organizations that operate in both the domestic and international arenas. In many countries, not least the US and the UK, Jews occupy strategic positions in the entertainment industry, the arts, publishing, journals of opinion, the academy, the legal profession, and government. “Jews are represented in Britain in numbers that are many times their proportion of the population,” British-Israeli journalist Anshel Pfeffer notes, “in both Houses of Parliament, on the Sunday Times Rich List, in media, academia, professions, and just about every walk of public life.”[17]

The wonder would be if these raw data didn’t translate into outsized Jewish political power. The Israel-based Jewish People Policy Planning Institute rhapsodizes that “The Jewish People today is at a historical zenith of wealth creation” and “has never been as powerful as now.”[18] It is certainly legitimate to query the amplitude of this political power and whether it has been exaggerated,[19] but it cannot be right to deny (or suppress) critical socioeconomic facts. When virtually every member of the US Congress acts like a broken Jack-in-the-Box, as they give an Israeli head of state, who has barged into the Capitol in brazen and obnoxious defiance of the sitting US president, one standing ovation after another, surely it is fair to ask: What the hell is going on here?[20]

Were it not for the outsized power of British Jews, it’s hard to conceive that British society would be interminably chasing after a hobgoblin. True, although fighting anti-Semitism is the rallying cry, a broad array of powerful entrenched social forces, acting on not-so-hidden agendas of their own, have coalesced around this putative cause. It cannot be gainsaid, however, that Jewish organizations form the poisoned tip of this spear.

It might still be asked, But is this “too much” power? Consider these facts. Jeremy Corbyn is the democratically elected head of the Labour Party. His ascendancy vastly expanded and galvanized the party’s ranks. Corbyn has devoted a lifetime to fighting racism; like eponymous labor organizer Joe Hill, where workers strike and organize, it’s there you’ll find Jeremy Corbyn. By British and even global leadership standards, he cuts a saintly figure. On the opposite side, mostly unelected Jewish bodies[21] have dragged Corbyn’s name through the mud, slandering and defaming him. They have refused to meet with Corbyn, even as he has repeatedly extended olive branches and offered substantive compromises.[22] Instead they issue take-it-or-leave-it ultimatums.

As it happens, Jews overwhelmingly do not support Labour, even when the head of the party list is Jewish (Ed Miliband in 2015). Nonetheless, these pious-cum-pompous communal leaders do not find it unseemly or even amiss to dictate from afar and from above internal Labour policy. This writer’s late mother used to muse, “It’s no accident that Jews invented the word chutzpah.” The transparent motive behind this cynical campaign is to demonize Corbyn, not because he’s a “fucking anti-Semite,” but because he’s a principled champion of Palestinian rights.

However, Corbyn’s candidacy is not just about Palestine or even the British laboring classes. It’s a beacon for the homeless, the hungry, and the hopeless, the despised, the downtrodden, and the destitute everywhere. If Corbyn’s traducers succeed, the glimmer of possibility he has held out will be snuffed out by a gang of moral blackmailers and extortionists. Is it anti-Semitism to believe that “Jews have too much power in Britain”—or is it just plain common sense? (It is, to be sure, a question apart and not one amenable to simple solution how to rectify this power inequity while not impinging on anyone’s democratic rights.) Still, isn’t it anti-Semitic to generalize that “Jews” have abused their power? But even granting that a portion have been manipulated or duped, it certainly appears as if British Jews in general support the anti-Corbyn juggernaut.  If this indeed is a misapprehension, whose fault is it? The tacit message of the unprecedented joint editorial on the front page of the major Jewish periodicals was: British Jews are united—Corbyn must go! Is it anti-Semitic to take these Jewish organizations at their word?

The upshot is, the JPR study does not prove the “elasticity” of anti-Semitism in British society. A couple of the incendiary propositions it tests do arguably indicate anti-Semitism—“The Holocaust is a myth,” “The Holocaust has been exaggerated”—but only an infinitesimal portion of Brits (2 and 4 percent, respectively) subscribe to them. Anti-Semitism of course exists in British society but the JPR has stretched the evidence beyond the snapping point. There’s no ground to doubt the conventional polling data that put its incidence at under 10 percent of British society.

Even if the JPR study withstood scrutiny, it still wouldn’t prove that anti-Semitism threatens British Jews. Amidst the nauseating nonstop spectacle of solipsistic, narcissistic, self-pitying navel-gazing, a reality check is in order. Were popular stereotypes plotted along a spectrum from benign to malignant, most anti-Semitic ones would fall near the benign end whereas those of truly oppressed minorities would cluster at the opposite end. Yes, Jews must endure the reputation of being stingy, pushy, and clannish—but Muslims are profiled as terrorists and misogynists, Blacks are despised as chronically lazy and genetically stupid, and Roma/Sinti are loathed as dirty beggars and thieves.

Nor do Jews suffer the losses attending actual victimhood. How many Jews qua Jews have been refused a job or flat? How many Jews have been shot dead by police or railroaded into jail? Whereas being Black or Muslim closes doors, being Jewish opens them. If whites occupying seats of power discriminate in favor of other whites, and men occupying seats of power discriminate in favor of other men, it would be surprising if largely successful Jews didn’t discriminate in favor of other Jews.

Not only is it no longer a social liability to be Jewish, it even carries social cachet. Whereas it once was a step up for a Jew to marry into a ruling elite family, it now appears to be a step up for the ruling elite to marry into a Jewish family. Isn’t it a straw in the wind that both President Bill Clinton’s pride and joy Chelsea and President Donald Trump’s pride and joy Ivanka married Jews? Making the rounds of the British talk show circuit, self-anointed authority Barnaby Raine grimaces that “there’s a very, very serious problem of antisemitism across British society.”  (Except for the fact that he is a “proud British Jew” and was once called a “kike,” it’s hard to make out the basis for his confident pronunciamentos.) Bertrand Russell once wrote of Trotsky, “He is very good-looking, with admirable wavy hair; one feels he would be irresistible to women.” Something similar can be said, more or less, of Barnaby the Bolshevik—or, at any rate, of the ideal to which he aspires. The question then comes down to this: Would he prefer to be ugly and bald or to be Jewish in Britain today? It’s not a trivial or tongue-in-cheek query. The fact is, personally as well as professionally, these physical stigmata are ten thousand times heavier a cross to bear than to be born a Jew.

If the nonproblem of anti-Semitism ranks a “very, very serious problem” in the UK, then the British people are most fortunate. In fact, the Corbyn candidacy would be redundant as they will already have reached the Promised Land.

“Those who cannot remember the past,” George Santayana famously warned, “are condemned to repeat it.” In light of the catastrophe that befell them during World War II, shouldn’t Jews assume and prepare for the worst and can they really be faulted for hypervigilance? Even if the indicators are for the moment faint, still it can’t be denied that it might happen here. If the availability of resources, time, and energy were infinite, such an argument could carry conviction. But they aren’t. “Economy of time,” Marx observed in the Grundrisse, “to this all economy ultimately reduces itself.” Whatever time is expended in one direction means less time expended in other directions. Can it seriously be contended that, in the face of the multiple domestic and global crises wracking British society—from homelessness, healthcare, and unemployment to Brexit, nuclear proliferation and climate change—anti-Semitism looms large on the list of urgent matters demanding immediate attention; that the finite resources at Britain’s disposal to fight here-and-now matters of life and death should instead be rechanneled to combating nebulous apocalyptic future scenarios?

But the truth is, Jewish elites do not for a moment believe that anti-Semitism is a burning issue. If they truly feared that it posed a clear and present danger now or in the foreseeable future, they wouldn’t be shouting from the rooftops that Corbyn was a “fucking anti-Semite.” For, if the UK was awash with closet anti-Semites, then, logically, broadcasting this accusation would hand Corbyn free publicity as it would be dulcet tones to the ears of potential voters. Far from damaging him, its diffusion could only facilitate Corbyn’s victory and pave the way for a second Holocaust. On the contrary, Jewish organizations know full well that vilifying Corbyn as an anti-Semite would drastically reduce his appeal, as anti-Semitism resonates only among assorted antediluvians, troglodytes, and fruitcakes.

In other words, the irrefutable proof that Corbyn’s pursuers don’t believe a word they’re saying is that by labeling him an anti-Semite they hope and expect to isolate him. However, as the accusation is manifestly a red herring, it’s also possible that the current hysteria will pass most people by entirely, not because they are unconcerned by anti-Semitism but because it hardly occurs to them as an issue at all. If the controversy has an effect it will be restricted to exacerbating divisions in the Labour leadership and perhaps also adding to a more general perception that the stories promoted by mainstream media are fake news.

17 August 2018

To be continued

Footnotes

* The author is grateful to Noam Chomsky, Maren Hackmann-Mahajan, Deborah Maccoby, Colin Robinson, and Jamie Stern-Weiner for several references and critical input.

[1] L. Daniel Staetsky, Antisemitism in Contemporary Great Britain: A Study of Attitudes towards Jews and Israel (Institute for Jewish Policy Research: 2017).

[2] Ibid., p. 11.

[3] Ibid., p. 25.

[4] Ibid., p. 21.

[5] Norman G. Finkelstein and Ruth Bettina Birn, A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical Truth (New York: 1998), pp. 6-7.

[6] Charles Silberman, A Certain People: American Jews and Their Lives Today (New York: 1985), pp. 78, 80, 81 (quoting Roth).

[7] New York magazine (24 October 2005).

[8] Liam Hoare, “Short-Listed for the Booker, Jacobson’s New Book is Judenrein,” Times of Israel (21 September 2014).

[9] Norman G. Finkelstein, The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering (New York and London: 2000).

[10] Jonathan Freedland, “An Enemy of the People,” Guardian (13 July 2000).

[11] Avraham Burg, The Holocaust is Over; We Must Rise from Its Ashes (New York: 2008), pp. 5, 17, 41, 78.

[12] “Jewish Brothers Top Britain’s 2016 Rich List,” Times of Israel (24 April 2016).

[13] Sandy Rashty, “Wealthiest Jews in Britain Were Born Abroad, Super-Rich List Reveals,” Jewish Chronicle (15 May 2014).

[15] Hamilton Nolan, “The Forbes 400: A Demographic Breakdown,” Gawker (23 September 2010); David Masci, “How Income Varies among US Religious Groups,” Pew Research Center (2016).

[16] “Jews Make Up 19% of Forbes 200 World’s Richest List,” Jewish Business News (7 March 2018).

[17] Anshel Pfeffer, “UK Anti-Semitism Report Highlights Disturbing Trend—among British Jews,” Haaretz (14 January 2015).

[18] Jewish People Policy Planning Institute, 2030: Alternative Futures for the Jewish People (Jerusalem: 2010), pp. 18, 19.

[19] Norman G. Finkelstein, Knowing Too Much: Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel is Coming to an End (New York: 2012), pp. 45-84.

[20] “Benjamin Netanyahu’s Speech to Congress Interrupted by Standing Ovations,” Telegraph (3 March 2015; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMVhb57RqI).

[21] David Rosenberg, “A Plea to Jeremy Corbyn from a Jewish Socialist Who Shares the Same Desire for Social Justice,” Public Reading Rooms (August 2018; https://prruk.org/a-plea-to-jeremy-corbyn-from-a-jewish-socialist-who-shares-the-same-desire-for-social-justice-and-human-rights/).

[22] Len McCluskey, “Corbyn Has Answered Concerns on Anti-Semitism, But Jewish Community Leaders Are Refusing to Take ‘Yes’ For An Answer,” HuffPost (16 August 2018).

 

Norman Finkelstein
About Norman G. Finkelstein

Norman G. Finkelstein received his doctorate in 1988 from the Department of Politics at Princeton University. He taught political theory and the Israel-Palestine conflict for many years and currently writes and lectures. Finkelstein's books have been translated into 50 foreign editions. His latest is "Gaza: An Inquest Into Its Martyrdom" (University of California Press, January 2018).

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137 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    August 19, 2018, 1:23 pm

    In politics, people often do things as distractions. This clamor about British antisemitism (“BAS”) is a distraction. It takes peoples’ minds off serious things like global warming/climate change (“GWCC”).

    Now the clamor about BAS is either a deliberately-chosen distraction (as if the clamor arose from the gas/oil industry or from others who profit [short term] from ignoring GWCC]); or a deliberately-chosen distraction as if the proponents of the clamor were [in effect] paid to create the clamor; or it is a sign of mental illness — people using their time and energy to fight the chimera of BAS instead of fighting the all-too-real problems of fighting and/or suffering from GWCC.

  2. HarryLaw
    HarryLaw
    August 19, 2018, 2:12 pm

    It would appear the ‘full’ IRHA definition is set to be accepted by the NEC with examples, because Len McCluskey of Unite has joined other leading Trades Unionists in wanting to put this row “behind us”. How wrong can they be? First of all others have said there must be caveats added to the examples, how is it possible to add a caveat to the FACT that Israel is a racist state, like being pregnant [either you are or you are not]. If the definition with examples is accepted in full then Corbyn and many members of the Labour party will be put in an untenable position and either be forced to keep quiet or have no place in the Labour party, how would it be possible for Corbyn to dispute that Israel was inherently racist when only people of Jewish origin can immigrate into Israel and the new Israeli basic state law talks only of ‘Jewish rights’. If accepted, the first question the Board of Deputies could ask Corbyn is ‘is the state of Israel a racist enterprise’ if he answered truthfully he would be destroyed and out of the party along with thousands of members, but then that is the plan all along.
    Here is must read article by Johnathan Cook [ex Guardian] ‘Corbyn smeared as an Anti-Semite, for a reason’.
    “But beyond Corbyn’s personal fate, the Labour party has now reached a critical juncture in its response to the smear campaign. In adopting the full IHRA definition, the party will jettison the principle of free speech and curtail critical debate about an entire country, Israel – as well as a key foreign policy issue for those concerned about the direction the Middle East is taking.
    Discussion of what kind of state Israel is, what its policy goals are, and whether they are compatible with a peace process are about to be taken off the table by Britain’s largest, supposedly progressive party.
    That thought spurred me to cast an eye over my back-catalogue of journalism. I have been based in Nazareth, in Israel’s Galilee, since 2001. In that time I have written – according to my website – more than 900 articles (plus another few hundred blog posts) on Israel, as well as three peer-reviewed books and a clutch of chapters in edited collections. That’s a lot of writing. Many more than a million words about Israel over nearly two decades.
    What shocked me, however, as I started to pore over these articles was that almost all of them – except for a handful dealing with internal Palestinian politics – would fall foul of at least one of these four additional IHRA examples Labour is about to adopt.
    After 17 years of writing about Israel, after winning a respected journalism prize for being “one of the reliable truth-tellers in the Middle East”, the Labour party is about to declare that I, and many others like me, are irredeemable anti-Semites”. https://original.antiwar.com/cook/2018/08/17/corbyn-smeared-as-anti-semite-for-a-reason/

  3. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 19, 2018, 3:02 pm

    An excellent summation of the Zionist led plot to undermine Jeremy Corbyn and the potentially huge problem for Zioland if a Labour Leader who is openly sympathetic to the Palestinians and openly critical of Zioland`s war crimes is elected as PM. I think it is worth bearing in mind that in the midst of this farce as far as I am aware none of the Jewish bodies such the Board of Deputies or the MSM outlets which they patently control have taken the logical step of investigating whether A/S is present and to what degree it is present in the other mainstream political parties. It is as if the other parties don`t exist. In the midst of it all there is the impression IMHO that the Zios and their collaborators are on a frantic roller coaster roll and have no idea how to put the brakes on. It has gone way past the point of serving their agenda as it is being relentlessly shoved down the throat of the British public as being the ONLY thing that matters – forget Brexit,forget the NHS,forget global warming. Forget everything and prioritise on the constant whinging and whining of the alleged sole representatives of 0.5 % of the population who are accusing a principled and honourable humanitarian of racism. As I said they are on a roll and simply don`t how or when to stop. Norman himself has said on a number of occasions that if you repeat a big lie often enough then the people you are targeting will start to believe it is true. With the Zios I think it is fair to say that in this case if you repeat the big lie often enough then you will start to believe it yourself.

    BTW .” Is it anti-Semitism to believe that “Jews have too much power in Britain”—or is it just plain common sense?” I think that this falls neatly into one of those categories in the DIY self tailored Zio IHRA viz:
    “Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions”

    I wonder can anyone get a shot at these ismism definitions eg Muslims,Catholics,Seventh Day Adventists, Pagans,Presbyterians etc etc or is it the reserve of the “Chosen”. Being a practicing atheist for example I sometimes find it offensive when people imply that people who do not follow a specific ritualistic cult regime which worships a divine being somehow do not have any morals or a moral compass.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      August 20, 2018, 10:07 am

      @Ossinev, et al

      More from Dr. Norman Finkelstein:

      Short video, August 17/18

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=xt5fOmtJfGQ

      “Norman Finkelstein to Dame Margaret Hodge: ‘You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about'”

      “As part of a long-running smear campaign against the elected leadership of the Labour Party, Dame Margaret Hodge accused Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn of being a ‘fucking antisemite and racist’.

      “For this she received a mild rebuke by letter from Labour’s Disciplinary Committee.
      Hodge compared this harrowing experience to that of being a Jew in the 1930s.
      Norman Finkelstein, leading American Jewish scholar and the son of Holocaust survivors, responds.”

  4. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    August 19, 2018, 3:37 pm

    I think this is the wrong fight for UK elite Jews to pick. The IHRA definition of antisemitism is nonsense. If Israel destroys Gaza in a few years is opposition to this Jew hatred?
    Zionism can no longer destroy its opponents. Corbyn represents far more powerful forces.

  5. Eva Smagacz
    Eva Smagacz
    August 19, 2018, 3:40 pm

    At the tangent:

    Fantastic conversation:

    Norman Finkelstein and famous doctor who was in Gaza during Cast Lead in Oslo:

    132/143

  6. HarryLaw
    HarryLaw
    August 19, 2018, 4:21 pm

    Many legal experts claim “Benjamin Netanyahu and the current government of Israel are war criminals” I would like to add that all governments of Israel left, right and centre are war criminals since they have all endorsed the settlement enterprise since 1967 in breach of article 49 paragraph 6 of the 1949 Geneva conventions and the 2001 ICC Act UK, confirmed in the International Court of Justice [world court] opinion in the ‘wall case in 2004, that the transfer of civilians by the occupant into occupied territory are grave war crimes. Meanwhile one of the groups at the forefront of this smear campaign against Corbyn, the Jewish Labour Movement [JLM] is also affiliated to the World Zionist Organization (WZO) – according to the UN, WZO pumps millions into building in the occupied West Bank through its settlement division. JLM is an affiliate of the World Labour Zionist Movement and supports the Jerusalem Programme (JP) of the WZO. The JP website lists the ‘foundations of Zionism’ as including ‘The unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael, and the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem, its capital, in the life of the nation.’ Are JLM members [who are affiliated to groups who support grave war crimes] the same people who are supposed to teach other members of the Labour party about Anti-semitism? The Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) has decided to not run courses at the conference in Liverpool next month, reports the Independent, in a letter sent to Labour general secretary Jennie Formby, JLM chair Ivor Caplin said: ‘You may also be aware that we have withdrawn from offering to deliver the antisemitism awareness module at party conference in Liverpool after some of its content was censored.
    ‘We presume this was to make the module compliant with the antisemitism code of conduct that neither JLM or the Jewish community have any confidence in.’ You could not make this stuff up.

  7. Keith
    Keith
    August 19, 2018, 6:51 pm

    Let us be honest. Corbyn is a sheepdog without a spine. If he isn’t on bended knee to the powers that be, then he is on his back in the submissive pose. He only seemed okay when safely outside of power he could make ineffectual noise. Like I said in a previous comment, when you roll over you get run over. As things currently stand, those who claim to represent 1/2 of 1% of the British electorate have veto power over who becomes the next UK Prime Minister. Not that it makes a lot of difference. The financiers more-or-less are calling the shots in any event. Even so, his performance has been pathetic.

    • annie
      annie
      August 19, 2018, 8:21 pm

      i don’t think he’s a sheepdog without a spine. that’s my honest opinion.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      August 19, 2018, 8:28 pm

      I’ll wade in between you and Keith. I wish he was more aggressive against the slurs on his character.

      But not a sheepdog without a spine. While quiet against attacks from party members he wasted no time in callling out nutty for what he is. Rightly so and it certainly nailed the racist pm between the eyes.

      That’s what I would want from a pm. Tolerant to opposing views and permissive of free speech. Yet standing on proper principle when the time is right.

      Again I am in between. I don’t personally feel he was nailed the right times but he’s a lot less submissive than any other western leader.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        August 21, 2018, 3:11 am

        I agree with oldgeezer here: he’s a lot less submissive than any other western leader, e.g., Bernie.

  8. peter hindrup
    peter hindrup
    August 19, 2018, 9:09 pm

    There are 500 million plus Semitic people on earth, those whose mother tongue is one of the Semitic languages there are16 million Jews, worldwide, of whom perhaps 5 million speak Modern Hebrew — a constructed language — who can realistically be considered Semitics, but let us allow the whole 16 million to be Semitics, and imagine that some slur, or truth, offends the whole 16 million, how can or could a person casting that slur or truth, be considered ‘antisemitic’?

    Offending a miserable 16 million out of 500 million when the person may, in fact, be a true Semitic?

    It is so obviously an absolute nonsense, The word itself is such a nonsense within the normal construct of English that it ought never to be used. Why not use specific words or terms, Jew-hatred, anti-Judaism, anti-Zionism —- and who could be otherwise? —- anti-Israeli.

    The use of antisemitic is an insult to approximately 500 million people, an insult to those who it is levelled at when it is so obvious that it is impossible for anybody to anti-Semitic — anti 500 million people from a variety of nations?

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      August 21, 2018, 12:31 am

      I can’t believe people still write stupid nonsense like this. Antisemitism has nothing to do with ethnic semiticism. This argument is simply a way to dismiss hatred against Jews as irrelevant.

    • DaBakr
      DaBakr
      August 26, 2018, 1:58 am

      @ph

      Hey rip van wrinkle welcome to the 21st century. But I do agree with one thing. Antisemitism should be called exactly what it is: common ordinary jew-hatred. Feel free. But calling it what it is doesn’t discount other definitions for the same exact thing.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 26, 2018, 1:35 pm

        “Antisemitism should be called exactly what it is: common ordinary jew-hatred. Feel free. But calling it what it is doesn’t discount other definitions for the same exact thing.”

        ROTFLMSJAO!! You bet, “DaBakr”. Everything is antisemitism!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 26, 2018, 4:30 pm

        ” But calling it what it is doesn’t discount other definitions for the same exact thing.”

        Eggs-ackly. Like what Jewish scholars call ‘soft antisemitism’. This would be refusing to recognize the Jews as a separate people, allowing other religions to steal Jews by way of conversion, and making marriage laws in direct contradiction to Jewish marriage laws.
        It’s all antisemitism!

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 27, 2018, 6:25 am

        DaBakr: “But calling it what it is doesn’t discount other definitions for the same exact thing.”

        Exactly. Especially when Zionist imbeciles define it to be hatred against Jews as such even if Jews as such are not targeted. They commonly have serious problems with simple set theory. You know exactly what I’m talking about, don’t you?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        August 28, 2018, 3:36 am

        @ m&co.

        Y’all remind me of the white people in america who say that since obama and other accomplished black folks have broken all barriers there is no more racism like there use to be.

        I also get a laugh out of the members here who have convinced themselves that it is zionist people who are the real jew-haters which, I suppose, relieves all responsibility for jew hating outside of Jews themselves (which is highly ironic considering PW is considered by many to be the biggest jew hater of all) so, I guess it’s best to leave you all to your own fantastical definitions, terminology and usage. You are all like a little cult anyway.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 28, 2018, 12:16 pm

        “Y’all remind me of the white people in america who say that since obama and other accomplished black folks have broken all barriers there is no more racism like there use to be.”

        Because racism against blacks is also anti-semitism?

  9. JWalters
    JWalters
    August 20, 2018, 1:35 am

    Thanks for this spectacular article! It tackles a centrally central issue with the depth and thoroughness it deserves and much needs. I hope MW commenters will post links to this article at MSM website forums.

  10. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 20, 2018, 7:11 am

    @Peter Hindrup
    “It is so obviously an absolute nonsense, The word itself is such a nonsense within the normal construct of English that it ought never to be used. Why not use specific words or terms, Jew-hatred, anti-Judaism, anti-Zionism —- and who could be otherwise? —- anti-Israeli.”

    Totally agree. As far as I am aware there has never been a specific legal challenge to the use of the term which as you point out is self evidently a contradiction :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people#Ethnicity_and_race

    Perhaps the current JC farce might lead to such a challenge. I certainly think that it is important to reinforce the point at every opportunity. Hatred of Jews or hatred of Judaism is quite simply Anti- Judaistic or Anti- Judaism. Would like to see these facts raised more in interviews , discussion panels, articles etc. Fairly certain though that in response the Ziozombies would freak out and guess what – yup make accusations of Anti- Semitism.

  11. Bumblebye
    Bumblebye
    August 20, 2018, 7:22 am

    The “sheepdog without a spine” is taking several (most) of the rabid right ‘newspapers’ to court over their reporting of his Tunis visit. The same “sheepdog” just appointed a Palestinian as the regional director of West Midlands Labour.

  12. Rob Roy
    Rob Roy
    August 20, 2018, 9:31 am

    Thank you for an excellent article. A couple small notes: ” …these physical stigmata are ten thousand times heavier a cross to bear than to be born a Jew.” No one is born a Jew. Judaism is not a race, but rather a religion. Babies born into Jewish families are brainwashed from birth to become Jews. Same as other religions.
    The Jews of Israel, except for the few who were actually in Palestine from before the Brits gave away land that was not theirs to give, are not Semites, of Arab origin. Over time the term has come to be accepted to include Jews but technically that’s an error. The few Arab Jews who are original residers of Palestine and who live in a group near Tel Aviv deny they are Israelis, shun the Israeli military, call themselves Palestinians and hang the Palestinian flag on their homes.
    Again, a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian, etc., is not born anything but a baby. Personally I think brainwashing children into a religion from birth is child abuse and disrespects the child’s chance to decide for him/herself what s/he wishes to embrace.

    This is one of the best writings on the tarnishing of Jeremy Corbyn who is one of the great leaders of our time. Right now I can’t think of anyone who comes close to his integrity.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      August 20, 2018, 11:20 pm

      “No one is born a Jew. ”

      Certainly not a religious Jew. But, as I understand it (always iffy where Jewish affairs are concerned), if your mother was a Jew, the various Jewish authorities (Mooser knows who they are) will claim that you are a Jew as soon as you are born.

      • Rob Roy
        Rob Roy
        August 24, 2018, 5:15 pm

        That doesn’t make you a Jew. If that baby were taken away and raised elsewhere in not a Jewish family, he/she wouldn’t be a Jew. Judaism is a religion, not a race.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 24, 2018, 7:54 pm

        That’s the way I think about it, but apparently the Jewish High Abdals and Illuminati (again, Mooser can give you details of who these are and what their proper titles are) do not share our view. They stick with the “born of a Jewish mother” definition.

        In order to avoid an infinite regress, they agree that it is possible to become a Jew by other means.

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 24, 2018, 9:06 pm

        || Rob Roy: That doesn’t make you a Jew. If that baby were taken away and raised elsewhere in not a Jewish family, he/she wouldn’t be a Jew. … ||

        Zionists can bloviate all they want – which they do because the facts aren’t nearly as sexy / tragic / exceptional as they would like them to be – but Jewish is a religion-based identity and a choice.

        And neither the identity nor the choice comprises a right:
        – to a religion-supremacist state; or
        – to do evil unto others.

      • Keith
        Keith
        August 25, 2018, 12:23 am

        ROHA- “They stick with the “born of a Jewish mother” definition.”

        Yes, and that is the basis for the Jews versus Gentiles Manichean worldview.

      • Keith
        Keith
        August 25, 2018, 12:26 am

        ROB ROY- “Judaism is a religion, not a race.”

        Yes, but Jewishness is a state of mind not a religion.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 25, 2018, 2:09 am

        Judaism is a religion, not a race.

        Consider yourself recorded in the Antisemitic registry.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 25, 2018, 12:14 pm

        ” If that baby were taken away and raised elsewhere in not a Jewish family, he/she wouldn’t be a Jew. “

        That depends on what the family raising him/her believes about Jews.
        If they believe it is an inalienable condition, or even a condition they think the child (for good or bad reasons) shouldn’t forget, the child may still consider him/her self a Jew.
        Or the adoptive family, no matter how lovingly they raise this child, may still consider them a Jewish person, and think it necessary for the kid (remember him/her? This kid’s gonna have a complicated life) to ‘know’ this.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 25, 2018, 12:23 pm

        “Jewish High Abdals and Illuminati (again, Mooser can give you details of who these are”

        I used to know all the players, and had an autographed poster of the championship National Hebrews team. But I haven’t kept up on Jewish minor-league baseball for decades.

  13. RayJosephCormier
    RayJosephCormier
    August 20, 2018, 9:48 am

    Then Pilate entered the Judgment Hall again, and called Jesus, and said to him, Are you the King of the Jews?
    Jesus answered him, Do you say this thing yourself, or did others tell you that about me?
    Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you to me: what have you done?

    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom not from here.
    Pilate therefore said to him, Are you a king then?
    Jesus answered, You say that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.
    Every one that is of the truth hears my voice.

    Pilate said to him, What is truth?
    And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and said to them, I find in him no fault at all.
    John 18

    We roar like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
    For our transgressions are multiplied before you, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
    In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
    And judgment is turned away backward, and justice stands far off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
    Isaiah 59

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 20, 2018, 4:23 pm

      “We roar like bears…/…and equity cannot enter.”
      Isaiah 59

      Ouch!

  14. hophmi
    hophmi
    August 20, 2018, 11:26 am

    So in short: Mondoweiss prints a piece that says anti-Semitism is OK because stereotypes are true. Shame. Shame. Shame. You would NEVER, EVER accpet this kind of reasoning for another minority group.

    Mondoweiss proves again that it is a hate site.

    • amigo
      amigo
      August 20, 2018, 12:22 pm

      What are waffling on about hopknee.

      Nobody here said Antisemitism is ok.

      What passes for AS with you and your zio cult members at IHRA is no way near real A/S but that won.t stop you cretins from whining.

      Go Corbyn and Long Live Palestine and Goodbye zionist entity.

      • annie
        annie
        August 20, 2018, 1:12 pm

        here’s the logic behind the long list of tropes.

        1. once upon a time a jewish person was falsely accused of something.
        2. therefore forever and always accusing a jewish person of that something is antisemitic.

        imagine if we applied that logic to other groups. it would be bigoted to accuse anyone of anything because of any of their ‘group’ being falsely accused in the past. over time, every group has had members falsely accused and every group has included criminals and dishonest people.

        over the weekend a british tabloid had a headline w/’enemy from within’ regarding labour’s blarite backstabbers. some jewish some not. even tho that terms has been around since the beginning of time and enemies from within have been around since the beginning of time, it was a term (i just found out) that hitler used against jews. therefore is was (highly) anti semitic to make that claim (twitter erupted) even tho there are currently active members of the labour party trying to take corbyn down. but because some of them are jewish (like members of JLM) it becomes a historical trope. you can even have 3 jewish papers with headlines glaring they are going to take corbyn down but call them enemies from within is off limits. the very concept of implying they are trying to control aspects of the party, even when the president of the board of british jews makes “demands”(according to the press) you can’t publicly allude they are trying to control anyone, because that becomes a trope.

        it begs the question of what, over time historically, jews have never done or been accused of doing in the past that therefore doesn’t qualify as a trope.

        norm point is that if something is true, it’s not anti semitic. take bernie madoff. you can call him a greedy corrupt cheat because he was. but is calling him a jewish greedy corrupt cheap anti semitic? probably. mentioning the jewishness of a person is ok when discussing advancements or benevolent accomplishments. but anything negative, like war crimes, crashing financial repercussions, lobbying efforts, accusing dame hodges weaponizing the holocaust to deflect from a disciplinary report — is bad. the pc patrol will be on your tail.

      • Mayhem
        Mayhem
        August 20, 2018, 8:39 pm

        @amigo, you said “Nobody here said Antisemitism is ok”, but the real message here is that nobody here cares about antisemitism which is demonstrated by the complete lack of any MW articles that have expressed any genuine concern about it whatsoever.

        Antisemitism is considered to be just a distraction, an annoying bother to those who wish to damn and slam Israel with impunity.

      • annie
        annie
        August 20, 2018, 9:12 pm

        mayhem, all racism and bigotry is horrible and wrong. but for the most part the recent allegations of anti semitism that have been in the news in the UK do not impress me as being anti semitic. ie, it is not antisemitic to not adopt the entirety of the new definition which includes the adage about israel’s not being founded on racism. it totally denies the essence of nakba. it’s hard to take racism seriously when the accusations are so far reaching it encompasses denying general facts on the ground.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        August 21, 2018, 12:37 am

        It’s “probably” anti-Semitic to reference Bernie Madoff’s Jewishness in describing his cheating? Probably? What is wrong with you, Annie? What is wrong with Mondoweiss? What is wrong with all of you? There are so many garbage humans here.

        Annie apparently believes that it’s ok to hate people based on their ethnicity as long as others make positive statements about them. Annie, you have serious reflecting to do. This is not a standard the left uses for any other minority group. It’s as dumb as saying that it’s ok to say African-Americans are predisposed toward crime as long as you say they’re good at basketball. You’re a bigot, Annie. And so are most people here.

      • annie
        annie
        August 22, 2018, 10:40 am

        It’s “probably” anti-Semitic to reference Bernie Madoff’s Jewishness in describing his cheating? Probably? What is wrong with you, Annie?

        hmm, you might have a point had i said “in describing his cheating”, but i didn’t. i said is calling him a jewish greedy corrupt cheap anti semitic?

        curious what do you think of this, from a jewish publication: https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/234650/why-is-hbos-bernie-madoff-so-un-jewish

        He is the ultimate shanda far di goyim, the ultimate embarrassment, the perp-walk that our grandmothers most feared, the greatest con artist of all time and an identifiable Jew. Put another way, Bernie Madoff is the most Jewish of criminals: the name, the crime, and the clientele—he invested for Yeshiva University, for Chrissakes! For Hadassah!

        the author, Mark Oppenheimer, goes on to say:

        by casting De Niro, in particular, director Barry Levinson has given us a Madoff whom we can never fully believe as a Jew, precisely because De Niro is never anything but an Italian

        he seems genuinely insensed

        The Madoff sons don’t seem Jewish, either. And Judaism is never mentioned in the script, or rather it’s mentioned obliquely, once, by my count, in a dream sequence, when a voice from a faceless mob demands to know how Madoff could do this to his own people. The parade of victims who testify at Madoff’s sentencing includes some recognizable Jews, but the scene is notable for the absence of specifically Jewish rage.

        the article, titled “Why Is HBO’s Bernie Madoff so Un-Jewish?” is an interesting read:

        how difficult it must have been to occupy the demilitarized zone between anti-Semitic caricature and de-Judaized whitewashing. They chose the latter, which may have been prudent, especially since there was no way the film was going to succeed on Jewish terms, for its exquisitely sensitive, and wounded, audience

        especially the ending:

        he proved us to be something less than a family. We Jews know that stab each other in the back, and sometimes in the front, but Madoff gave up our shameful secret to the rest of the world. And that was the real scandal before the gentiles.

        i’m not sure anyone can “Un-Jewish” bernie madoff without being called out on it. and on an interesting side note, the 2017 article starts out saying about the name; Bernie” will forever have the taint of evil, if not quite as badly as “Adolf,” then still, interestingly, much worse than “Joseph”—Stalin be damned.

        funny, because i don’t even think of bernie madoff when i think of “bernie”. i think of one of the most beloved americans ever, arguably the most popular politician in america, thus far in the 21st century.

        and as for you calling my a bigot, la di da, what else is new? you’re like a broken record.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 21, 2018, 12:42 am

        “But a generalization can plainly be both hurtful and true, as in truth is often a bitter pill to swallow. If the hurtful generalization is true, then—inasmuch as the epithet anti-Semitic signals an irrational animus—it cannot be anti-Semitic.”

        “norms [sic] point is that if something is true, it’s not anti semitic. ”

        When The Promised Day comes, the Trumpet is heard on high, Musick untunes the sky, the clouds unfold, and angels descend to proclaim the Glory of God and bring us chariots of fire and a search engine for the archives, I will be able to find out how many times I have raised this question of truth and anti-Semitism.

        And how many times hophmi et al. have failed to answer.

        The steadfast way they have ignored the issue leads me to suspect that those less than angelic beings who continually proclaim that this or that is anti-Semitic do not concern themselves with truth. As far as they are concerned, if a statement reflects badly on Jews, it must be forbidden if possible, and denounced if not. They are not concerned with rationality, only with imposing censorship.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 21, 2018, 6:48 am

        Mayhem: “… but the real message here is that nobody here cares about antisemitism which is demonstrated by the complete lack of any MW articles that have expressed any genuine concern about it whatsoever.”

        Another ludicrous claim to prove your ludicrous claim that this MW is a hate site. The only people who are obsessed with hate on MW are Zionists like you.

        Even not caring about antisemitism is not antisemitism.

        You constantly fail to explain why anything that doesn’t defame Jews as such is antisemitic. Israel is a state and not Jews as such. To claim that Israel is a racist endeavour doesn’t defame Jews as such. Israel is not ‘the Jew’. Only Zionists and antisemites see Israel as ‘the Jew’. It’s people like you who are responsible for the conflation of Jews as such and the state of Israel and the rise of antisemitism that is newly created because of this conflation. You are deliberatley playing into antisemites hand. That and your constant evokation of your “hate” mantra.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 21, 2018, 6:49 am
      • eljay
        eljay
        August 21, 2018, 9:13 am

        || annie: mayhem, all racism and bigotry is horrible and wrong. … ||

        This is true, but it’s not enough. What Zionists like Mayhem want to hear from non-Zionists is: All racism and bigotry is horrible and wrong unless it is committed by Jewish supremacists, in which case it is wonderful and right.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 21, 2018, 4:38 pm

        “It’s “probably” anti-Semitic to reference Bernie Madoff’s Jewishness in describing his cheating? Probably?”

        So the entire story of how Madoff found his “marks” and how he gained their confidence is off limits? The way Madoff made a front of respectability? The way he worked his scams?

        Don’t you think, “Hophmi” this is something Jewish people need to know? Or do we just stay easy marks for any fraudster willing to trade on ethno-religious associations?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 22, 2018, 3:17 am

        Mooser,

        Well said.

        https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/madoff-jewish-affinity-fraud/460446/
        “BUSINESS
        Why Were So Many Madoff Victims Jewish?
        The trust people tend to feel toward others in the same ethnic, racial, and political groups makes them easy targets for scammers.
        Harold A. Pollack
        FEB 8, 2016”

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 22, 2018, 3:00 pm

        “—he invested for Yeshiva University, for Chrissakes! For Hadassah!”

        “For Chrissakes”? Good old Tablet.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        August 26, 2018, 2:02 am

        Get off the high horse. The implication has always been anti-Semitism has been ginned up by evil zionist jews to assassinate the reputations/lives of anybody the’elders’ feel are a danger. that’s the protocols byline isn’t it?

    • Bumblebye
      Bumblebye
      August 20, 2018, 12:30 pm

      Rather a twisted interpretation, hophmi.
      The logic of a level-headed zionist with a chip on each shoulder?

    • RayJosephCormier
      RayJosephCormier
      August 20, 2018, 12:47 pm

      Palestinians are a minority group under the Israeli Military Dictatorship in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

      It’s either Military Dictatorship or Democracy. It can’t be both

    • eljay
      eljay
      August 20, 2018, 12:51 pm

      || hophmi: … Mondoweiss proves again that it is a hate site. ||

      Yup, nothing says “hate” like a website that advocates justice, respect for human rights and equality for all. The world would be a better place if Zionists – and other hateful and immoral people – strived to “hate” like MW does.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 20, 2018, 4:08 pm

      . Shame. Shame. Shame.

      “Hophmi”, you are so hard to please. Remember, no actual Jews were harmed in the production of this anti-Semitism ‘scandal’.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        August 21, 2018, 12:38 am

        Remember Mooser, there are few things lower in this world than someone who hates who they are.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 21, 2018, 12:05 pm

        “Remember Mooser, there are few things lower in this world than someone who hates who they are.”

        “Hophmi”, you’re pathetic. And I’m warning you: you keep this up, and I will stop sending checks to AIPAC and JNF!

        BTW, “Hophmi”, I’ve always wanted to know, what percentage of Jews (+- 5%, I wouldn’t want to nit-pick your expertise) suffer from this awful syndrome of “hating who they are”?
        You must have some idea. You guys all are obsessed with this concept of “Jewish self hate” but if you can’t quantify it, how can you take it into account?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 21, 2018, 4:30 pm

        This is wonderful! I thought it was lost to the ages, but here it is, in all its glory!

        Next part of the thread is sweet, too. “Hophmi” complains to Phil about “Annie”, (“You really are a piece of work, Annie” says “Hophmi” )

        First “Hophmi” excoriates Phil in the most insulting and personally degrading terms he can muster, and right after that trades on his relationship with Phil as “gentlemen” to lambaste Annie.

        When “Hophmi” throws a stone, whole flocks of birds fall down dead.

      • annie
        annie
        August 22, 2018, 3:56 pm

        “Remember Mooser, there are few things lower in this world than someone who hates who they are.”

        mooser, i love that song!

        Don’t stop the motion
        If you get the notion
        You can’t stop the groove
        ‘Cause you just won’t move
        Got my sunroof down
        Got my diamonds in the back
        Put on your shaky wig woman
        If you don’t I ain’t comin’ back
        Shame shame shame hey shame on you
        If you can’t dance too

        yeah!!! memories!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 22, 2018, 4:55 pm

        my favorite verse:

        “If you don’t want to go
        Remember one monkey don’t stop no show!
        My body needs action, ain’t gonna blow,
        Yes I’m going out, and find a dancin’ man;
        If you really think you’re fast,
        Try to catch me if you can!

        And I said shame shame shame yeah (and etc.)”

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        August 26, 2018, 2:07 am

        @mssr

        Not much more then 5% wth an additional 5-10% (tops) being somewhere between not connected to Israel to anti-zionist israel haters who love themselves with both hands and after the wash cloth pat themselves on the back too

        (As I’ve always said: that leaves Israel haters and zionist haters hating on about 85% of all Jews in the world so…. Carry on soldier)

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      August 21, 2018, 2:04 am

      “Shame. Shame. Shame.” Thy name is hophmi.

      “Mondoweiss proves again that it is a hate site.”

      How? How? How?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        August 21, 2018, 9:55 am

        RoHa claims like so many bigots that bigotry is ok if it’s true? Bigots always set themselves up as the deciders of “truth” which is always based on their acceptance of bigoted stereotypes as true. Of course, bigotry is based on making collective generalizations about people based on their grouping. It is always by definition false because it depends on diminishing the individual as the basis for judgment. RoHa again asks for the right to be accepted as a bigot.

        Marnie, if you don’t understand why Mondoweiss is a hate site, it’s because you are bigot. Like most bigots, you’re too blind to understand your own bigotry. I almost feel sorry for people like you.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 21, 2018, 10:44 am

        Trying to hop way too high, Hoppmi.

        bigotry is based on making collective generalizations about people based on their grouping

        Even if that were a consensus definition (it ain’t), that is exactly what you’re doing yourself, Master Hophmi: pleading for a claim to be accepted or rejected out of hand only because it concerns a given group, instead of being judged on measured or documented evidence for each single claim, as RoHa insists should be done.

        Zionist stupidity seems to be the only bottomless thing around, and yes, that’s a group of sorts.

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 21, 2018, 10:51 am

        || hophmi: … Bigots always set themselves up as the deciders of “truth” … ||

        Like Jewish supremacists (Zionists) do. You are so right.

        || … Of course, bigotry is based on making collective generalizations about people based on their grouping. … ||

        Like Jewish supremacists (Zionists) do about all sorts of groupings of people (Palestinians, Mooslims, Ayerabs, BDS supporters, anti-Zionists, non-Jews in general, etc.). Right again.

        || … RoHa again asks for the right to be accepted as a bigot. … ||

        Unlike Jewish supremacists (Zionists) who simply – and proudly – tell the world that they are bigots and the world can go f*ck itself if it doesn’t like it. So true.

        Three for three – well done!  :-)

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        August 21, 2018, 11:01 am

        “Marnie, if you don’t understand why Mondoweiss is a hate site, it’s because you are bigot. Like most bigots, you’re too blind to understand your own bigotry. I almost feel sorry for people like you.”

        I’m doing something right then. Thank you!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 21, 2018, 12:14 pm

        “RoHa claims like so many bigots that bigotry is ok if it’s true?”

        No, “Hophmi”. If something is true, it’s because the evidence (who did what) shows it to be true. And at the same time, the evidence restricts the fault to those particular people involved not ‘all Jews’.

        It’s only the charges which aren’t true which can be imputed to all Jews, right “Hophmi”?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 21, 2018, 1:14 pm

        ” I almost feel sorry for people like you.”

        “Hophmi”, don’t go soft on us!
        Your position of power carries with it the responsibility of administering strict justice!

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 22, 2018, 1:52 am

        “RoHa claims like so many bigots that bigotry is ok if it’s true?”

        I claim that, when presented with a generalization, we should ask whether it is true, rather than asking whether it fits our ideological preferences.

        “RoHa again asks for the right to be accepted as a bigot.”

        The OED defines a bigot as

        “A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.”

        (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bigot)

        I suppose that fits me fairly well, since I tend to think my opinions (when I have them, which is less often than you think) are, necessarily, right, and that refusal to agree with me is a sign of intellectual and moral perversity.

        But I suspect that is not what hophmi has in mind. I think he means something along the lines of “racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic*, anti-Semite”.

        I would really like a Socratic debate with hophmi, to analyse what he really has in mind when he talks of bigotry, and to find out why he thinks that sort of thing (whatever it is) is wrong. But I doubt that will happen.

        I notice, however, that hophmi rejects the idea that there can be true generalizations about groups. If this were so, it would imply that the members of the group had no characteristics in common. Not even “being one of the people inside the circle I have just drawn with my best Caucasian chalk”. And what, then, would make them members of a group? But a group with no members isn’t much of a group.

        (As a song:

        That’s racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic,
        Racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic,
        Racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic.
        Now hear the word of the Lord.”

        I’ve heard it, and I’m fed up with it. It’s time the Lord found a few new words.)

      • gamal
        gamal
        August 22, 2018, 10:29 am

        “being one of the people inside the circle I have just drawn with my best Caucasian chalk”

        You appropriated the Chinese Chalk Circle for Caucasians! That’s Sinophobic, Hophmis’ intersectional fury is going to be epic.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 22, 2018, 9:55 pm

        Actually, it was Bertolt Brecht who appropriated it. But I colluded in that appropration, so I also should apologise to 李潛夫.

        对不起! 抱歉!

        I await hophmi’s intersectional fury with trepidation.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 22, 2018, 10:08 pm

        OT.

        Incidentally, Gamal, I’m sure you will be interested to know that Australian nurses are being told to acknowledge their white privilege when dealing with indigenous patients.

        https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/australian-nursing-and-midwifery-code-of-conduct-slammed-over-white-privilege/news-story/4d1d71f45af35b8ffdd25fd40804d5a3

        “Very gratifying to hear that, Nurse. Now, since a crocodile bit off my leg, and I’m bleeding to death here, could we, perhaps, move on to the next item on the agenda?”

        I assume this applies only to white nurses. Australian nurses are like a Benetton ad. In my recent brush with the medical profession, one of my nurses was Syrian. Another was Nepalese, ex-Army (Gurkha), with an interest in John Masefield and Walter de la Mare.

      • gamal
        gamal
        August 23, 2018, 6:20 pm

        “it was Bertolt Brecht who appropriated it”

        Yes, the Germans are usually to blame.

        “Incidentally, Gamal, I’m sure you will be interested to know that Australian nurses are being told to acknowledge their white privilege when dealing with indigenous patients”

        I know I was part of the “culture wars” of the 70/80’s, you know “skinhead” is a black style, that’s why they listen to Ska music. I watched as racism was sold to them through the TV and newspaper, when Bob Marley sings of “crazy Baldheads” it’s that who he means the black skinheads, they were scary dudes, made us stand up and take the pressure.

        I know ” white privilege” but white people are crazy and don’t know how to look after themselves, except the plebs they are cool and breed with us and everything and won’t acknowledge anything, I am so drunk because of American tourists, who were just so charming tonight, but yes Skinhead is ours at least acknowledge that, or is that not what you meant.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 23, 2018, 9:37 pm

        Not what I meant, but I will happily renounce all claim on skinheads. You can have as many as you want.

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      August 29, 2018, 3:57 pm

      That’s Mondoweiss – people who want the right to engage in crude stereotyping on the basis of ethnicity.

      #hatesite

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 29, 2018, 5:29 pm

        “That’s Mondoweiss – people who want the right to engage in crude stereotyping on the basis of ethnicity.”

        “Hophmi” taking Zionists at their own word, at their own valuation, is not “crude stereotyping”

  15. Rogelio
    Rogelio
    August 20, 2018, 11:59 am

    There are few men today capable of wearing a cape and riding a white horse in the direction of those so viciously attacked. Norman Finkelstein is one and he will long be remembered for this eloquent defense of Jeremy Corbyn.

  16. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 20, 2018, 2:16 pm

    @Misterioso
    Thanks for the link to Norman Finklestein video. Perhaps in response she might grace us again with her devastating intellect and humanitarian vision by calling him a “f…ing self loathing racist Jew” Then again perhaps not. The Independent newspaper here in the UK`s latest piece on the Corbyn Zioblitzkreig is interesting if only because it suggests that some of the MSM are beginning to vomit as this crap is being shoved relentlessly down their throats by the bought and bent proprietors..
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/margaret-hodge-comments-nazi-germany-antisemitism-fears-british-jews-a8498481.html

    Also well worth listening to are the measured and considerd thoughts of the Michael Rosen the celebrated childrens novelist and obviously “self loathing Jew” in a radio interview with the “arch Zio enemy” George Galloway.

    Denmark – State – Rotten ?

  17. MHughes976
    MHughes976
    August 20, 2018, 4:27 pm

    The current lead article in UK Polling Report argues that the general population is not very concerned with the anti-S row and that Labour voters are not going to let it weaken their support for their party. On the other hand non-Labour voters may be influenced, which I suppose may make them more resistant to being won over. There are as yet no voting intention polls whose research was conducted since the Wreath Debate sprang up.

  18. Mayhem
    Mayhem
    August 20, 2018, 8:31 pm
  19. Rosetta
    Rosetta
    August 20, 2018, 10:41 pm

    The irony of course is that the Jewish/Zionist ‘belief’ that followers of Judaism are magically superior as human beings, is the worst kind of racism. and not to be tolerated in a civilized world.

    The other irony is that if Nobel Prizewinners are studied by religion, Jews do not stand out. If we also remove those who do not practice Judaism, and that would include Einstein whose parents were atheists and who was educated by the Catholics, the number drops dramatically.

    If we remove those who had one Jewish parent and one Christian/Muslim or Atheist, or one grandparent who was Jewish, then down the number comes again.

    However, the mere fact that some feel it is necessary to quote this mythical cleverness in regard to Jews in general and the Nobel Prize in particular, makes one question the intelligence of Jews who do it because it is such a divisive and racist approach.

    Indeed, if Judaism did magically confer greater intelligence then Israel would not be the horror it is today. Israel should be, if the claims had any substance, exceptional in intelligence not stupidity.

  20. Citizen
    Citizen
    August 21, 2018, 3:24 am

    Poll (published by The Sun): One in Four British Voters Think Labour Leader Corbyn Is Antisemitic https://www.algemeiner.com/2018/08/20/poll-one-in-four-british-voters-think-labour-leader-corbyn-is-antisemitic//

    However 35% of the public do not believe that Mr Corbyn holds personally anti-Semitic views: Boost for Jeremy Corbyn as Labour maintains poll lead over Tories despite wreath row https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/opinion-polls/news/97666/boost-jeremy-corbyn-labour-maintains-poll-lead-over-tories via @PoliticsHome

  21. Emet
    Emet
    August 21, 2018, 4:21 am

    Finkelstein, why do you get to decide what the “premises” are?

  22. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    August 21, 2018, 7:02 am

    The UK public is no longer pro Israel. The peace process took the piss. The Gaza massacres revealed the true face of Israel. Netanyahu is distasteful.

    These are facts. Zionism is not marketable to ordinary Europeans any more. British people are decent. Most Israeli Jews vote for ####s .
    If the bots could somehow defenestrate Corbyn this problem would remain.

    Zionism is a beaten docket.

  23. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 21, 2018, 7:14 am

    @Mayhem
    “Jeremy Corbyn himself admits Labour has ‘real problem’ with antisemitism”

    Theresa May on the other hand doesn`t admit to there being a problem of “antisemitism” in the Tory Party which unlike Labour doesn`t even mention the word in its own party rule book. LOL

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-conservative-party-rulebook-doesnt-mention-antisemitism

    And as for the Monster Raving Loony Party well enough said.

  24. HarryLaw
    HarryLaw
    August 21, 2018, 9:14 am

    Here is an opinion by Hugh Tomlinson QC of Matrix chambers on 8th March 2017 concerning the UK Governments adoption of the definition on Anti-Semitism put forward by the IHRA. https://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/TomlinsonGuidanceIHRA.pdf
    The opinion was asked for by these groups ‘Free speech on Israel’, ‘Independent Jewish Voices’, ‘Jews for justice in Palestine’ and ‘The Palestine Solidarity Campaign’.

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      August 21, 2018, 9:37 am

      The IHRA insistence on including anti Zionism in antisemitism has a very strong whiff of the boy who cried wolf. Jim Crow failed. Nazism failed. Apartheid failed. Zionism will fail. Antisemitism will become meaningless.

  25. HarryLaw
    HarryLaw
    August 21, 2018, 10:14 am

    My opinion is that the Labour Party should not adopt the IHRA examples in full, first of all the definition itself as Tomlinson said “The IHRA does not purport to provide a legal definition of antisemitsm. It does not have the clarity which would be required from such a definition. Hugh Tomlinson has identified aspects of the eleven ‘contemporary examples’ that could “appear to condemn as antisemitic conduct which does not constitute or manifest hatred or intolerance against Jews“, while the code itself states that antisemitism “is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews.”

    In case of disciplinary hearings or legal dispute, such a contradiction could mean that both plaintiff and defendant could claim justification from the code with equal strength, making any judgment dependent on the subjective opinion of the panel or court.
    To resolve this problem, Tomlinson states that the definition itself must always be considered superior to the examples in case of any conflict:
    Of course third parties such as local Authorities or Universities could quote those examples as being sufficient to ban, or call a meeting antisemitic, after all those examples used by the IHRA must have been thought about at length, and represent the considered views of the organization [rightly or wrongly]. Why would such a third party take a chance, it is for this reason that this code would have a chilling effect on free speech, and should be rejected.

  26. just
    just
    August 21, 2018, 11:50 am

    Thanks for this, Dr. Finkelstein! It’s a much- needed exposé. You’ve done a great service to those of us that strive to see an end of the Israeli horrors perpetrated by the apartheid state on Palestinians in and out of Palestine. Those who seek justice will appreciate your insight and honesty.

    Gideon Levy:

    “Jeremy Corbyn for U.K. Prime Minister …

    Jeremy Corbyn is a paragon of a leftist, one who has fought his whole life for the values he believes in. Israelis regard him as a sort of alien – the left here has never been led by an Israeli Corbyn, nor by anyone who can hold a candle to him.

    Corbyn is a brave man. He voted in parliament 553 times against his party’s position, and yet he took its leadership by storm. He voted against the war in Iraq, against nuclear weapons and against British rule in Northern Ireland. He was active in Amnesty against Augusto Pinochet, and was arrested in anti-apartheid demonstrations in South Africa.

    With such a conscience and courage he wouldn’t have gotten anywhere in Israel, apart from Breaking the Silence. In Britain he has a good chance of being elected the next prime minister. Nothing lights up the imagination and inspires hope more than that. Anyone who wants to see the world take action against the Israeli occupation should dream of Corbyn.

    Corbyn has been declared the next enemy of the Jews. Viktor Orban is a righteous among the nations; the American alt-right is the rock of Israel and its savior; Rodrigo Duterte, the Philippines’ leader who called to kill millions “like Hitler,” is a welcome guest in Israel – and Corbyn is the enemy of the people.

    The Jewish establishment in Britain and Israeli propaganda have taken out a contract on him, to foil his election: He’s an anti-Semite, Labor is anti-Semitic, Jewish life in Britain is in “existential danger,” no less, as three British Jewish newspapers cried out in a joint editorial.

    While the situation of any Jew in Britain is better, safer, more egalitarian and freer than the condition of any Arab citizen in Israel, not to mention the Palestinians in the occupied territories, the Jewish establishment’s desperate cry for help raised an uproar and commotion against Corbyn.

    The Israeli press hastened to join the incitement campaign – branding every Labor utterance as anti-Semitic. Party Member Peter Willsman branded the rabbis who accused his party of anti-Semitism as “Jewish Trump fanatics” – gevalt, anti-Semitism. Some commentator accused Corbyn of being too apologetic, another accused him of not apologizing. Even a young, impressive journalist like Antonia Yamin of Kan hastened to join the instigation crusade.

    Let it be said: Corbyn is a staunch, consistent opponent of Israel’s occupation policy. That is his right; as a true leftist it’s his duty. On Labor’s fringes there are certainly anti-Semitic circles; Corbyn stated several days ago in an op-ed in The Guardian that they have no place in his party. The attempt to reduce what Labor defines as anti-Semitic, unlike the prevalent definition of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, doesn’t necessarily make the party anti-Semitic.

    But the Jewish-Israeli propaganda persists: When Israel enacts the apartheid law and its soldiers kill 160 unarmed demonstrators on the Gaza border, the only response is to accuse anyone who criticizes this of anti-Semitism. It works, it places the accused in the prosecutor’s role.

    Israel has enacted a law saying it is the nation-state of the Jewish people. In other words, anything Israel does represents the entire Jewish people. This has a price.

    When an Israeli sniper shoots dead a legless man in a wheelchair, and a nurse – the Jewish people is a partner. Thus Israel’s policy is inflaming anti-Semitism in the world. It may and should be criticized, as Labor does and as Corbyn does, and the gagging, in the form of labeling any criticism as anti-Semitism, is outrageous. It also increases anti-Semitism and the feeling that the Jews are acting like bullies and using their power of emotional blackmail.

    Hajo Meyer, a Dutch Holocaust survivor and human rights activist, once coined the phrase, “Once an anti-Semite was a man who hates Jews. Today an anti-Semite is a man whom the Jews hate.”

    Leave the incitement campaign against Corbyn and wish him luck: He’s a man of conscience, and I hope he’ll be Britain’s prime minister. It could be good for Israel…”

    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-jeremy-corbyn-for-u-k-prime-minister-1.6362301

  27. eibieman
    eibieman
    August 21, 2018, 7:36 pm

    This essay will not do as a refutation of the Zionist accusations of Antisemtism. The current popular conception of the British public that the Labour Party harbours Antisemitic views is supported by some 40% of the population and yet the Left’s Marxists still fails to consider the historic flaws in that ideology’s conception of the Jewish people. That 40% surely includes a substantial portion of the working class so one would think the Marxists would be concerned. Perhaps they are consoled by the portion that does support the Labour Party and may very well harbour some Antisemitic views.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 22, 2018, 12:44 pm

      Shorter “eibeiman”: ‘Anybody who does not join in the self-interested definition of “the Jewish people” is an anti-Semite’

      “That 40% surely includes a substantial portion of the working class so one would think the Marxists would be concerned”

      ROTFLMSJAO!

  28. eibieman
    eibieman
    August 21, 2018, 7:48 pm

    Finkelstein’s casual remark that “Truth cannot be attained if dissentients, however obnoxious, are silenced” is unacceptable and reflect the American political culture’s concept of freedom of speech, even if it is hate speech. In Canada, such speech as Holocaust denial is declared to be illegal and criminal as it should be.
    From there on he degenerates into a hailstorm of justification of Jewish stereotypes based on some doubtful statistics since the Forbes 500 list of world’s wealthiest has only 8 Jewish people of whom 2 are not Zionists. Finkelstein claims 20% which makes me wonder about his arithmetic.
    This ardent defence goes too far and I do not believe that Corbyn would himself agree with such populism.
    This form of Marxist populism is a shame for the Left and discredits the Jewish solidarity movement with the Palestinians amongst the Jewish People. And it is amongst the Jewish People that the deciding revolution against Zionism must be attained.
    Long live the Jewish Bund and it’s principled Anti-Zionism.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 22, 2018, 3:07 am

      What do you know?

      The Eibie man is here! Ziopaganda using this time the name of the most steadfast anti-Zionist, anti-Nazi fighters has arrived!

      “Long live the Bund” indeed, censorship peddler. How dare you even evoke the name of the Bund to… justify censorship! Not only that, carrying water for the Zionist hysteria campaign in the UK, too, again in the name of the Bund.

      If I rate three guesses, all three say it is Dr. Goebbels’ ghost posting under the name Eibie. More than despicable. Say, aren’t you surprised you don’t get censored here?

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      August 22, 2018, 10:38 pm

      “even if it is hate speech. In Canada, such speech as Holocaust denial is declared to be illegal and criminal as it should be.”

      Two questions.

      1. Why should such speech be declared illegal and criminal?

      2. Who decides which speech is “hate speech” to be declared illegal?

      (The obvious answer to 2 is “me”, but so far neither the Canadian government nor any other has asked me to adjudicate. And I certainly wouldn’t trust them to get it right by themselves. )

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 23, 2018, 1:57 am

        RoHa,

        Let me offer an unsolicited (as always) answer to your Q. 2, a serious one, though, with none of your flippancy: the decision about hate speech is obviously made by a college of Saints, culled from the few who never hated anyone in their lifetime, not even their tax appraiser or their neighbor’s loud dog.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 23, 2018, 9:17 pm

        Thank you, echi.

        Any offers for Q1?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 24, 2018, 12:44 am

        For Q1, ask les Anglais; they outlaw speech. Not me. I’m even happy to see the obscenities written by Zionists published, even if of the anencephalic variety.

        PS Now I think of it, it’s all of Zioslave Europe. Wow.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 24, 2018, 7:23 am

        Thanks again. I was hoping to get a Canadian response. Eibieman obviously takes a Firm Line on this, so I’m sure he has thought about it in depth and has strong arguments to support his position.

  29. MichaR
    MichaR
    August 21, 2018, 8:21 pm

    I found this revolting.

    The Jewish population of the U.K is feeling threatened, 2017 saw a 34% rise in violent antisemitic assaults, but according to Finkelstein there no antisemitism. And even if the the English population harbors the entire collection of classic antisemitic tropes – it’s completely justified! We’re all rich, successful, meddling, over represented everywhere, and completely self assured in our genetic superiority.

    I admire Mr.Finkelstein for his commitment to the Palestinian cause and refusal to waver from the two-state solution. However, his dismissal of the legitimate concerns of this community – despite the acknowledgement of said problem from a host prominent Leftists (see Mehdi Hassan and Owen Jones) – as some soft of cynical elitist plot is nothing short of vile.

    See this article for the statistic cited in the first article:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/01/antisemitic-incidents-in-uk-at-all-time-high

  30. eibieman
    eibieman
    August 22, 2018, 12:00 am

    “Antisemitism will become meaningless.” is meaningless unless Maghlawatan does not care to consider Antisemitism to be a form of racism. This then becomes an apology for Antisemitism as in the Finkelstein case.

  31. annie
    annie
    August 22, 2018, 12:36 am

    See this article for the statistic cited in the first article:

    ok:

    The report pointed to a rise in all forms of hate crime following the EU referendum as well as publicity surrounding alleged anti semitism in the labour party. These factors may have caused higher levels of incidents as well as encouraged more reporting of antisemitic incidents from victims and witnesses in the Jewish community, the trust said.

    The trust’s figures showed a 34% increase in the number of violent antisemitic assaults, from 108 in 2016 to 145 in 2017. The most common single type of incident in 2017 involved verbal abuse randomly directed at Jewish people in public.

    hmm, random verbal abuse. sometimes numbers can be deceiving too. this 34% increase (37 more violent assaults) during the rise in all forms of hate crime following the EU referendum, i wonder how it relates to the other numbers of hate crimes? in an environment where 1 violent assault is too many, 37 extra violent assaults seem outrageous. but on the bright side, thousands upon thousands of gazans were violently assaulted this summer, many requiring amputations and the amount of violent anti semitic assaults that took place across the UK represents a tiny fraction of those attacks. and if you quadruple that 34% increase, it pales in comparison to the murders committed by israel this summer — doesn’t come close. in fact, when you compare it to 2014 deaths during israel’s summer slaughter, it represents a huge decrease from 2014, the 2000+k, high declined probably represents an over 90% decrease.

    but in a world where palestinian lives are worth a dime a dozen and news of an increase of 37 individual reports makes international headlines — it begs he question, what else is new?

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      August 22, 2018, 6:07 am

      Jewish fingernail syndrome perhaps. Jews in the UK have never been safer. The movie Defamation covered the ADL and manufactured antisemitism. Using antisemitism to deflect criticism of Israel’s cruelty is wrong. Either everyone is special or nobody is.

    • MichaR
      MichaR
      August 22, 2018, 7:43 am

      Right, we can never discuss any attack on any Jew in any place in the world without first acknowledging the far greater plight of the Palestinians. People like yourself will always blame and connect Jews, regardless of where they live, to Israel and whatever crimes it commits.

      Additionally, you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t dismiss the rise of antisemitism as cavalierly as you. 2000 years of persecution and genocide tends to bring about certain sensitivities which you clearly aren’t capable of appreciating.

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 22, 2018, 8:13 am

        || MichaR: Right, we can never discuss any attack on any Jew in any place in the world without first acknowledging the far greater plight of the Palestinians. … ||

        We should be able to discuss attacks against Jews without talking about the plight of Palestinians. We should also be able to discuss attacks against Palestinians without talking about the plight of Jews. Zionists insist on the former but seem incapable of doing the latter.

        || … 2000 years of persecution and genocide tends to bring about certain sensitivities … ||

        Aside from the fact that there isn’t a person alive today who has suffered 2000 years of persecution and genocide, what Zionists (deliberately) fail to understand is that “certain sensitivities” do not comprise a right:
        – to a supremacist state of any kind; or
        – to do evil unto others.

      • annie
        annie
        August 22, 2018, 8:25 am

        2000 years of persecution and genocide tends to bring about certain sensitivities which you clearly aren’t capable of appreciating.

        hmm, i wouldn’t characterize myself as being incapable of appreciation, but i’d urge you and anyone else observing this increase of 37 antisemitic attacks to filter it through the other factors mentioned in the report. ie, when the report says a rise in all forms of hate crime following the EU referendum i do wonder what percentage that rise was (of all hate crimes) and how many hate crimes were reported during that same period.

        in general, i tend to filter news thru a 21st century lens — maybe some 20th century thrown in. ie in a discussion about health care in the world today, i likely would not see it thru a 2000 year lens. nor, when i think about human trafficking today would i consider the slaves of the roman empire. and, as the report mentions “publicity surrounding alleged anti semitism” in the labour party i would not filter that through a 2000 year old political lens. it’s not that i am incapable of it, it just seems rather archaic.

        we can never discuss any attack on any Jew in any place in the world without first acknowledging the far greater plight of the Palestinians

        oh i don’t think that’s true. it happens all the time, routinely in fact. just google anti semitism, there’s news report after news report reporting on anti semitic attacks (the one in the guardian included) with no mention of palestinians at all, and no mention attacks anywhere in the world perpetrated by jews either. i mean, take the ADL for example, they routinely discuss anti semitism in a way totally divorced from any massacre or abuse israel might be committing against palestinians.

        so, i think it’s inaccurate to claim “we can never discuss” anti semitic attacks without first acknowledging the far greater plight of Palestinians. not when it happens routinely.

      • annie
        annie
        August 22, 2018, 8:35 am

        People like yourself will always blame and connect Jews, regardless of where they live, to Israel and whatever crimes it commits.

        that seems rather absurd. ie, why would i connect phil to israel’s crimes? most of the jews i come in contact with through both my work with this site and in my daily life, my normal routine of going to the grocery store and chatting with my neighbors, why would i hold them responsible for the crimes israel commits? for the most part, i think of jews on the front lines of fighting against those injustices. that is who i connect with on social media and elsewhere. for the most part, i connect with jews i have an affinity for, regardless of where they live.

      • Keith
        Keith
        August 22, 2018, 10:45 am

        MICHAR- ” 2000 years of persecution and genocide tends to bring about certain sensitivities which you clearly aren’t capable of appreciating.”

        You have been indoctrinated in Zionist anti-Gentile myth-history. A Manichean worldview where non-Jews are the evil other.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 22, 2018, 12:46 pm

        “2000 years of persecution and genocide tends to bring about certain sensitivities which you clearly aren’t capable of appreciating”

        That’s very true, “MichaR” And it’s time we did something about it!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 22, 2018, 12:58 pm

        “Right, we can never discuss any attack on any Jew in any place in the world without first acknowledging the far greater plight of the Palestinians.”

        Oh, absolutely. As Jews, it is our duty to scream “Me, me, me” at every opportunity.
        That’s the way to make sure people are properly sympathetic to our views. Gotta keep hitting them over the head with our troubles. They ain’t got the sensitivities to empathize with us if we empathize with others.

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 22, 2018, 2:55 pm

        || MichaR: That’s simply false. Zionists like Peter Beinart are continuously raising awareness and alarm at the treatment of Palestinians. … ||

        Sure, in the context of a concern for the well-being and longevity of the “Jewish State”. No surprise there: He’s a Zionist.

        || … I think it logically follows that a Jew, given the history of his people, might be alarmed at a rise of antisemitic rhetoric and correlated violent crime. The fact that it’s not a connection you can make isn’t terribly surprising. … ||

        It logically follows that a homosexual, given the history of his people, might be alarmed at a rise of homophobic rhetoric and related violent crime. But I’ve yet to see the majority of homosexuals advocating a supremacist “Gay State” or doing evil unto others to secure its existence.

        || … To your second point – you’ve once again pivoted from the concerns of the Jewish community to the crimes of Israel. ||

        Not at all. I acknowledge that Jews – regardless of their nationality – are entitled to be concerned about attacks on Jews. What you Zionists won’t acknowledge – what you pivot and spin and dance away from – is the fact that the concern Jews have does not entitle them to a supremacist state or to do evil unto others.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 22, 2018, 9:38 pm

        “People like yourself will always blame and connect Jews, regardless of where they live, to Israel and whatever crimes it commits.”

        Not people like Annie, but she is much nicer than I am.

        I allow myself to influenced by what I perceive. I see that Official Jewish Organisations (e.g. the Board of Deputies*of British Jews) lots of individual Jews support Israel.
        When Israel commits yet another crime, the media is quickly filled with Jewish spokespeople, letters to the ed. from Jews, and so forth, all defending Israel.
        When Israel claims to be the “homeland” of all Jews, and demands that all Jews be loyal to the state, I do not see mass rejection of this claim.

        These things lead me to believe that Da Bakr is right, and that the vast majority of Jews support Israel and applaud its crimes.

        Mondoweiss assures me that things are changing, and the number of Jews who reject Zionism is increasing. I hope this is true.

        But in the meantime, I am inclined to connect Jews to Israel and its crimes.

        (* I can’t stop myself from picturing them wearing black funny hats, star of David badges, six-guns, and sitting with their boots on the table, drinking whisky, and spitting into spitoons while looking at posters of wanted anti-Semites.)

      • dionissis_mitropoulos
        dionissis_mitropoulos
        August 26, 2018, 9:31 am

        Hi MichaR

        I would like to respond to your main points, because if you can’t persuade me (I share prof Finkelstein’s outlook regarding the conflict) then you won’t be able to persuade anyone critical of Israel. I will give first a quick response to each of your points. You said:

        “The Jewish population of the U.K is feeling threatened, 2017 saw a 34% rise in violent antisemitic assaults, but according to Finkelstein there no antisemitism.”

        I will argue that the Jewish leaders of Jewish orgs in Western countries do not behave as if they are afraid (let alone scared) of antiSemitic (a/s) physical or verbal attacks against Jews . I reached this conclusion because I see that their major concern (even after widely publicized incidents of a/s attacks) is to rush to promote Israel’s putative interests, But, surely, a Jewish leader who is afraid of physical or verbal attacks will try to influence her government to prevent these attacks, not try to influence the government to take positive action regarding a faraway state (Israel), which (Israel) on top of it all is causally implicated (by being a trigger) in the very attacks the Jewish leader is allegedly afraid of ( I can post links from pro-Israel sources if you wish, correlating Israel’s wars or bad behavior in general with attacks on Western Jews). And yet, the Jewish leaders I have seen on the news do the latter, i.e. seem more concerned with promoting Israel-friendly policies, instead of policies that protect local Jews from attacks. I recently saw Chancellor Merkel declaring after an a/s attack, hoping to please Jewish leaders no doubt, that Germany is very dedicated to the safety of German Jews and to the safety of Israel:

        https://www.timesofisrael.com/syrian-convicted-of-berlin-assault-on-arab-israeli-wearing-kippa/

        But, surely, when we are concerned with urgently solving problem A, we don’t bring up problem B in the forefront, especially if aspects of B happen to be part of the generating factors of problem A. Yet that’s what Merkel did.

        You also said:

        “However, his [prof Finlkenstein’s] dismissal of the legitimate concerns of this [fear of the Jewish community at the prospect of a/s attacks] …as some soft of cynical elitist plot is nothing short of vile.”

        I have watched a few videos with prof Finkelstein and he is not vile at all, actually he comes out as very balanced – a real feat, considering that he has been attacked in the most vile way by the very leadership of the Jewish communities we are talking about. If the observation I made above about Jewish leaders not being really afraid is true, then describing their behavior as a plot is not far-fetched, though I would go for “gratuitous tantrum cum organizational&ideological inertia cum financial concern about donors cum additional unknown to me factors” instead of “plot”.

        You also deplored an alleged fact:

        “ we can never discuss any attack on any Jew in any place in the world without first acknowledging the far greater plight of the Palestinians.”

        I don’t know if your point stands in general (that is, I don’t know if indeed in circles critical of Israel one will always be criticized for not saying something about Palestinian suffering in case she brings up a/s attacks). But in the context of present day a/s attacks against Jews (the non-terrorist variety), where advocates for Israel keep on screaming about the “new anti-Semitism” of the Muslims and of the Left (while strangely ignoring the a/s of the Right), it makes perfect sense to mention the Palestinian suffering in the hands of Israelis because this suffering is something that does trigger a/s attacks. The Palestinian suffering obviously does not justify a/s attacks by Muslims against Jews in the West, but it causally explains lots of them. If you are concerned with finding a solution to the phenomenon of such a/s attacks you should welcome the mention of Palestinian suffering as it is one of the triggers that need to be somehow dealt with so that Western Jews not be attacked – I am deliberately vague here.

        Finally you said:

        “To your second point [commenter Eljay] – you’ve once again pivoted from the concerns of the Jewish community to the crimes of Israel.”

        This is precisely what I am accusing Jewish leaders of doing, at the expense of the Jewish Western public: they are pivoting from the concerns of the Jewish community to Israel’s putative well being. They are too obsessed with Israel, as the New York Times editor put it:

        https://www.timesofisrael.com/jonathan-weisman-unpacks-americas-brewing-anti-semitism/

        He was referring to the American Jewish leaders, but his point is true for the UK too (as we have just found out by a coordinated attack on Corbyn for the sake of Israel, given that the a/s definition contestable points concerned Israel mainly, if not exclusively (the double loyalty issue indeed touches upon Jews, though I am not sure how it is framed in Labour’s definition).

        I conclude that if Jewish leaders are concerned with the well being of the actual Jews in Western countries, they should be promoting the well being of these Jews, not the putative well being of the Jews in Israel – which is not seriously threatened anyway.

        I have been making points similar to these in this discussion in the analytic philosophy blog Daily Nous. There are a few more interesting links in there in one of my comments:

        http://dailynous.com/2018/07/14/philosopher-victim-anti-semitic-police-brutality/#comment-147209

        P.S. In case a comment of mine misinterpreted as saying that I am casting the Palestinians in bad light, this is not what I am saying, I am attributing this point of view to another commenter.
        It’s a pity analytic philosophers are not, to my knowledge, weighing in on the issue of the definition of anti-Semitism, I think their contribution would put an end once and for all to the absurdity of at least 2 (most likely 3) Israel-related stipulations of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.

      • dionissis_mitropoulos
        dionissis_mitropoulos
        August 27, 2018, 12:04 pm

        Speaking of the conflation devil (i mean the conflation of Israel’s putative well being with the well being of Western Jews), here is the Director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, Mark Leonard, speaking as a Jew:

        https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/resurgent-german-anti-semitism-by-mark-leonard-2018-08

        “But, as someone of Jewish heritage who is currently reclaiming his German citizenship…”

        It’s an article where he speaks in favour of outreach, the need “to get more young Germans to meet and engage with Jews”. Such a policy is “geared toward new (Muslim) immigrants, who must be made to understand that Jews have historically been the victim, not the oppressor”.

        This policy comes as response to the observed anti-Semitism in Germany, as he puts it:

        “But since 2015, when Chancellor Angela Merkel … opened Germany’s doors to refugees fleeing the conflict in Syria, unease about resurgent anti-Semitism has been growing in the German establishment, and particularly in the Jewish community.”

        And in case you are wondering what is included in this anti-Semitism, Mr Leonard gives us some clues (emphasis added):

        “After all, just in the past year, a stone was hurled through a synagogue window in Gelsenkirchen, Israeli flags have been burned at demonstrations, and a Berliner wearing a yarmulke was assaulted in the street. Worse still, these attacks – sometimes by immigrants …”

        Got it? The burning of a flag is racism against the collective represented by that flag.

        Now, anyone who has witnessed demonstrations of anarchists outside American embassies (we have lots in Greece), knows pretty well that the burning of the American flag that is always attending the demonstration is a repudiation of American policies, not a sign of racism. I haven’t yet met in my life a single anarchist who is racist. The same thing that holds for the burning of the American flag holds for all flag burnings, they express an utter repudiation of the country’s policies, they are not meant to make a statement about the country’s people. In particular, to see anti-Semitism as a necessary accompaniment of any burning of an Israeli flag by a Muslim is the epitome of emotional obtuseness. Even if the particular Muslim happens to be anti-Semitic, the burning of the Israeli flag might be just due to Israel’s actions at the particular time, and her hypothesized anti-Semitic psychological predispositions maybe totally inoperative at the time, firmly preempted by the sight of Israeli atrocities, atrocities that could have generated equal anger to other non anti-Semitic observers, Muslim or not.

        So I am pretty sure that when Mr Leonard approaches Muslim immigrants, he will be mistaking for anti-Semitism their natural distrust towards his attempt to play the victim while Israel is butchering their coreligionists. One of his mistake will have been that he told them that burning the Israeli flag is anti-Semitic. How can the hypothetical Muslims trust him and begin appreciate the Jewish past suffering when Mr Leonard is not willing to acknowledge the present suffering of Palestinians at Israel’s hands? Worse, Mr Leonard is actually (consciously or unconsciously) tacitly threatening them that a perfectly legitimate nonviolent political protest (such as the symbolic burning of a flag) is going to cost them the societal marginalization that the anti-Semitism label carries.

        Mr Leonard, if you go in so cockily, they will tell you, silently and in future deed, “[email protected] you anyway”:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQMXBvFMmGc

        Archive “Fuck You.”

  32. MichaR
    MichaR
    August 22, 2018, 12:38 pm

    “You have been indoctrinated in Zionist anti-Gentile myth-history. A Manichean worldview where non-Jews are the evil other.”

    If you’re going to gaslight me, there are more convincing arguments available.

    • MichaR
      MichaR
      August 22, 2018, 1:05 pm

      eljay

      “We should be able to discuss attacks against Jews without talking about the plight of Palestinians. We should also be able to discuss attacks against Palestinians without talking about the plight of Jews. Zionists insist on the former but seem incapable of doing the latter.”

      That’s simply false. Zionists like Peter Beinart are continuously raising awareness and alarm at the treatment of Palestinians.

      “|| … 2000 years of persecution and genocide tends to bring about certain sensitivities … ||

      Aside from the fact that there isn’t a person alive today who has suffered 2000 years of persecution and genocide, what Zionists (deliberately) fail to understand is that “certain sensitivities” do not comprise a right:
      – to a supremacist state of any kind; or
      – to do evil unto others.”

      I think it logically follows that a Jew, given the history of his people, might be alarmed at a rise of antisemitic rhetoric and correlated violent crime. The fact that it’s not a connection you can make isn’t terribly surprising. After all, White Americans often grouse when African Americans carry on about still feeling enslaved, despite the Emancipation Proclamation being enacted in 1863. Understanding each other’s perspectives and narratives is clearly something we struggle with.

      To your second point – you’ve once again pivoted from the concerns of the Jewish community to the crimes of Israel.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 22, 2018, 2:06 pm

        “After all, White Americans often grouse when African Americans carry on about still feeling enslaved, despite the Emancipation Proclamation being enacted in 1863.”

        Keep it up, but I don’t think you’ll be replacing the LED.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 22, 2018, 1:05 pm

      “If you’re going to gaslight me”

      “Gas-light”? You mean “manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own reality”?

      Like this:

      “Additionally, you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t dismiss the rise of antisemitism as cavalierly as you. 2000 years of persecution and genocide tends to bring about certain sensitivities which you clearly aren’t capable of appreciating.”

      I smell gas. Gimme a lighter, so I can look for the leak.

      • just
        just
        August 22, 2018, 1:18 pm

        Well said, Mooser!

        (lol)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 22, 2018, 1:54 pm

        “Well said, Mooser!”

        I was put in mind of the Yiddish saying, “You’ll never gaslight anybody by lighting your own farts.”

      • just
        just
        August 22, 2018, 1:58 pm

        rotflmao!

        Whew.

  33. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 22, 2018, 1:15 pm

    The primary MSM attack dog in the PCAC (Prevent Corbyn At Any Cost) campaign is the celebrated Daily Mail famous for its in depth probing and totally reliable “journalism”.
    For example:

    There was a very simple forensic exercise conducted by investigators into how the Daily Mail concocts its stories and it was very illuminating:

    Some years ago the Daily Mail ran a headline story along the lines of :

    “London Underground nfested with billions of human fleas”

    The investigators contacted London Underground to discover if this was true.

    “No, of course not” said LU

    “So where has the DM got this figure of ‘billions of human fleas’?

    “So there are definitely not ‘billions of human fleas’ on LU?

    “Categorically, no”

    The Daily Mail never ran a correction to the headline story despite being officially informed of the true situation by LU

    https://www.quora.com/How-credible-is-the-Daily-Mail

    On what is supposedly the other end of the journalism spectrum as opposed to the tabloid newspapers on what may reasonably be described as the right wing of the left wing the Guardian seems to be paying lip service to the Corbyn hunt. It`s Editor in Chief since 2015 Katherine Viner is seen by the Zios in the UK and has been identified as a Zioland basher by those truly worthy independent journalists in the Jewish Chronicle LOL not least because of her play “My name is Rachel Corrie”. As far as I am aware they haven`t as yet got round to calling her an “Anti – Semite” (apparently the UK is overflowing with “Anti – Semites especially in the Corbyn wing of the Labour Party but not of course in the wonderful pure non racist Tory Party LEL). Still time will tell. For the moment it might be the case that she is being reined in by the shadowy financial interests now controlling the paper.
    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/fury-at-young-vic-revival-of-notorious-gaza-play-1.442355

    However the flogging of the dead horse continues apace largely IMHO because the Zios and the Zio bent press in the UK are on a roll and they are simply incapable even if willing to stop the vomit they are spewing out.

    • amigo
      amigo
      August 22, 2018, 4:35 pm

      “As far as I am aware they haven`t as yet got round to calling her an “Anti – Semite” (apparently the UK is overflowing with “Anti – Semites especially in the Corbyn wing of the Labour Party but not of course in the wonderful pure non racist Tory Party LEL)” 0ssinev

      Haven,t heard from Jon S since he got back from his trip to Antisemite infested UK.

      Seems as if he was unable to unearth even one instance of that famous British Antisemitism , (mostly in working class neighbourhoods , wouldn,t find that in Knightsbridge or Eaton Sq. Good heavens No.)

  34. Ellen
    Ellen
    August 23, 2018, 1:00 am

    Thank you. I never use the term Anti Semitic to describe Judeophobes , or fear, loathing , distrust or hate ofJews — which is fear and ignorance. It is an insulting and meaningless word — first coined by a Judeophobe and adopted by the Zionist movement in the late 19th century to describe anti Jewish thought or behavior. Why the term “anti Semitic” is not an insult to Jews is a mystery.

  35. Sibiriak
    Sibiriak
    August 23, 2018, 8:15 am

    Ellen: Why the term “anti Semitic” is not an insult to Jews is a mystery.
    ———————————————–

    How a product can be shipped by truck is also a mystery.

  36. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 23, 2018, 9:31 am

    @Ellen

    ” first coined by a Judeophobe and adopted by the Zionist movement in the late 19th century to describe anti Jewish thought or behavior”

    As I think you are indicating the term anti – semitic is technically incorrect and as with eg Islam = Islamophobia the correct term should be Judeophobe. I am not aware of the term “Anti – Semitic” being challenged in a court of law situation as having no legal basis as the terms “Semite” and “Semitic” apply to a range of different ethnicities/races/peoples who inhabited and continue to inhabit the Middle East and not to the followers of a particular religious cult which originated in the Middle East.

    With regards to the ongoing Jeremy Corbyn blitzkreig it illustrates perhaps that there is a need for a thorough legal review of current laws. Perhaps the time has come to introduce some form of new clarifying legislation here in the UK ( an update eg of the 2010 Equality Act) which outlaws hatred/discrimination against individuals and individual religious organisations because of their religious beliefs to apply to all and every religion equally and NB not discriminating in favour of one particular religion ie the standards applied to Judaism would be exactly the same as those applied to all other religions. In other words there would be equality of treatment and no form of exceptional or additional definitions for Judaism.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 23, 2018, 9:07 pm

      Perhaps the time has come to introduce some form of new clarifying legislation here in the UK ( an update eg of the 2010 Equality Act) which outlaws hatred/discrimination against individuals and individual religious organisations because of their religious beliefs

      Or perhaps it’s past time for the Limeys to learn about freedom of speech and stop the despicable practice of repressing it, don’t you think? Speech is just speech. Looks like you guys never heard “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me”. Sorry to say, much, much more than the monarchy, it’s the absence of free speech in official law that makes Britain a relic of despotic times.

      Also, what’s with outlawing “hatred/discrimination against individuals and individual religious organisations because of their religious beliefs”? Now we’re in Saudi Arabia, as far as the legal situation is concerned! No right to attack religion?

      Are we to see the Holy Inquisition replace the UK Parliament next?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 23, 2018, 9:57 pm

        “Are we to see the Holy Inquisition replace the UK Parliament next?”

        I don’t expect it.

  37. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 25, 2018, 2:57 pm

    @Echinococcus
    Or perhaps it’s past time for the Limeys to learn about freedom of speech and stop the despicable practice of repressing it, don’t you think?

    Steady on old son. Methinks you are shooting this particular “Limey” messenger. I was merely suggesting that a review of existing and implementation of new comprehensive legislation with no exceptional definitions for Jews/Judaism would terminally burst the exceptional status which underpins the Zio balloon.

    “Also, what’s with outlawing “hatred/discrimination against individuals and individual religious organisations because of their religious beliefs”

    Sorry I can`t get my limey head round where you are coming from on this one. I believe and I hope that the majority of “limeys” believe that it is morally wrong to hate people and carry out hate acts against people because of their religion be that Judaism,Islam,Catholicism etc. In a civilised state it is quite appropriate and right IMHO to have anti – hatred laws to cover this. To suggest somehow that this represents a return to the Inquisition is a little bizarre don`t you think.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 25, 2018, 6:27 pm

      Ossinev,

      believe that it is morally wrong to hate people and carry out hate acts against people…

      Are you for real?

      First, we aren’t talking about “morally” anything, but legally. Huuuuge difference.

      Second, why should it be wrong to hate people if their action is criminal or absurd or plain obnoxious in your eyes or even if you just dislike them intensely? Or if you dislike them because of their forcing some stupid belief down the throat of the feebleminded and minors? Hate is defined as an intense dislike, how can you legislate it out?

      Third, how is that anybody’s business but mine –again, as long as no one is physically hurt?

      Why should any &^%$ of a government outlaw anything anyway, as long as no one is physically harmed?

      Any “anti-hate” laws as you call them are perhaps not worse, but exactly as bad as the Inquisition. Civilized places already have more than enough laws prohibiting material and physical damage to your fellow humans. Prohibiting any kind of speech at any level is a return to the Stone Age. Stone-agers may have had some excuses even though I’m not so sure of it. We don’t.

  38. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 26, 2018, 8:31 am

    @Echo
    “Are you for real?”

    Yup I am not a bot just checked and I got my better half to confirm

    I think you are on some sort of personal soap box roll on this one and simply don`t get where I am ” really ” coming from. There are various statutes (laws) in force here in the UK outlawing “religious hatred” inc:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_and_Religious_Hatred_Act_2006

    One last attempt. Acts of hatred of an individual or a group of individuals simply because of their religious affiliation to me is yes morally wrong and I am speaking as a terminally lapsed Catholic and a non proseletyising Atheist. Criticism of an individual or a group of individuals if for example you disagree with their religious practices is not wrong eg I personally believe that circumcision as practiced by Jews and Moslems is abhorent and should be classified as child abuse and I would defend my right and the right of others to say so under Human Rights Legislation as freedom of speech.

    What I have trying to suggest is that Jews and Jewish organisations here in the UK as clearly illustrated by the Corbyn farrago have managed to claim and assert “exceptional” status for Judaism over all other religions ie it is wrong to hate individuals or groups of individuals because of their religion but it is exceptionally wrong and in altogether in a different category to hate Jews/Judaism because of the Holocaust. It has been clear for a very long time that they have used and will patently continue to use this claimed exceptionalism as a method of sheltering Zionism/Israel from criticism. If the current legislation was reviewed and revised to make it clear that the same tests and standards apply equally to all religions then it would IMHO burst the Zio IHRA ballon.

    Off my soap box. Over and definitely out on this one.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 26, 2018, 10:29 am

      Ossinev

      Not “out”, as you again assert both support for freedom of speech, at least as far as religious groups are concerned, and the statute banning it.

      What you meant when you suggested that the law be applied with no special status with regard to so-called Judaism, was understood the first time, of course; what I’m still shocked by is your request to apply it at all.

      Anything that is not legislated is completely irrelevant here: no one is questioning your personal right to speak against people intolerant of religion itself.

  39. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    August 26, 2018, 12:23 pm

    The Guardian – which has been loudly beating the anti Corbyn drum since the day he announced his candidacy 3 years ago – has been plumbing ever greater depths:

    “Perhaps they’re right and it is too soon even for this gentle introduction. I certainly don’t want to frighten or traumatise my daughter. And yet, in the current climate, with accusations of antisemitism in the Labour party making headline news virtually every day, and a rise in antisemitism all over Europe, this is an issue that is pertinent to her life and to her future, not just a story in a book. Many Jews in the UK are feeling very unsettled. I even know Jews who are packing up and leaving for Israel in fear.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/23/jewish-young-antisemitism-children-anne-frank

    So a 3 year old has to be educated about anti semitism and told to be afraid of the big bad gentiles….. because a man who urges justice for all might possibly become PM? How is this not a form of sinister indoctrination? Shouldn’t 3 year olds be playing with toys and watching Peppa Pig, not being told to be scared of her neighbours?

    And how is this ‘serious’ journalism? And who is this Hilary Freeman? Any relation to fashion gerl turned anti semitism expert Hadley, one wonders?

    Hard to believe that this same ‘news’paper, not all that long ago, serialised Finkelstien’s ‘Holocaust Industry’.

    • just
      just
      August 26, 2018, 12:51 pm

      I read that a few days ago and nearly gagged. It was more about her than her child… So now a 3 yr old in the UK has to be indoctrinated into the ‘cult’ because mama says so.

      {She’s a self-described “Agony Aunt, Journalist and Novelist”. (from her website that I’d rather not link to here!)}

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius
        August 27, 2018, 5:51 am

        Absolutely right. It’s all about her and her desperate desire for victimhood. Her poor innocent child is merely a prop. Then again, she was probably subjected to the same parenting style when she was a kid. That’s how the circle of indoctrination goes.

        “{She’s a self-described “Agony Aunt, Journalist and Novelist”. (from her website that I’d rather not link to here!)}”

        Lol definitely related to Hadley the fashion hack then!

        Dear Self-described Agony Aunt,

        I live in safety and prosperity in one of the world’s leading liberal democracies. Yet, somehow, I believe that the local folks are out to get me, and now feel the need to make sure my 3 year old daughter feels the same way. What do you advise?

        Hilary

        Dear Hilary,

        I’m afraid your problems go beyond my area of expertise. You should see a trained psychiatrist. In the meantime, let your daughter enjoy her childhood.

        Best wishes,

        Self-described Agony Aunt.

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