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White nationalism and Jewish groups JVP and IfNotNow are ‘both sides’ of anti-Semitism, ADL’s Greenblatt said

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The massacre of 11 Jews in a Pittsburgh synagogue is prompting soul-searching throughout American politics; and one component of that inventory is scrutinizing all the Jewish professionals who devoted resources to fighting critics of Israel by accusing them of anti-Semitism, when the real threat was something far different. The CEO of the Anti Defamation League is a case in point.

In recent days, many outlets have turned to Jonathan Greenblatt to explain hatred of Jews in the U.S. Greenblatt was on CNN and the PBS News Hour today, on MSNBC yesterday, and the day before he had an op-ed in the New York Times. In all his appearances, Greenblatt has emphasized the anti-semitic threat from rightwing nationalists, but he has also quietly cited anti-Zionism as part of the problem, pointing to anti-Semitism on college campuses.

Greenblatt has a history of accusing leftwing critics of Israel of supposed anti-Semitism. Last January, Greenblatt spoke at a forum in Israel and repeatedly lumped leftwing anti-Zionism in with rightwing nationalism as threats to American Jews.

The two currents were rising together, and the Jewish community was divided, Greenblatt argued, about which threat was the real anti-Semitism. And which president was more of a threat to Jewish interests, Obama or Trump.

As you read my transcript of his comments, note that Greenblatt throws his former boss President Obama under the bus, as hostile to Israel. And he characterizes progressive Jewish groups Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow as extreme anti-Semitic organizations.

“American politics are polarized in a way they’ve never been before, and American Jews are literally the fulcrum of that I think in many ways.

“You know, President Obama whom I formerly worked for… I think it’s safe to say he made a series of what I might characterize as missteps on Middle East policy that I don’t want to rehash, but they spawned anger among certain elements of the Jewish community, particularly on the Republican side of the ledger.

“And I think it’s safe to say that this president has made a series of policy missteps on the domestic side that I also don’t want to rehash but that have engendered a great deal of negative reaction from the Democratic side of the ledger… But he’s embraced Israel in ways that are quite remarkable but he’s also really exacerbated that cleavage I think. And you see this division actually growing a great deal. On one side you have a surge of activists on the left who — they are almost like, as Trump embraces, there’s a Newtonian response, there’s an equal and opposite reaction.

“And his strong embrace I think has allowed a number of folks on the left to really — people who are committed to delegitimization [of Israel], to try to mainstream their views, and plant themselves into the center of progressive discourse in the United States, and it’s really quite damaging. And it’s worth noting that some of the fastest-growing Jewish groups, IfNotNow, Jewish Voices for Peace, these are youth-driven organizations that are really quite committed to an agenda that I think everyone in this room would find extremely uncomfortable. Yet these are the vanguard prompted in part by the political dynamic in the country today.

“I should say that, you know that Israel has always been a tough issue. We’ve had AIPAC and J Street for almost ten years [presumably as opponents]. What’s now happened is that within the Jewish community and I think forces here are prompting it — anti-Semitism has become a debated issue. That’s a pretty remarkable thing. You have folks on the right who say to me, ‘Just ignore Charlottesville and those neo-Nazis are not really a big deal. You need to focus on antisemitism on the left, taking over campuses, that’s the problem.’

“Then I have folks on the left say to me, ‘Ignore Linda Sarsour, ignore that movement, what you really need to focus on is the anti-Semitism of the right, that’s the real problem.’ So I think that’s extraordinary and dynamics here in this country I think are playing into that.”

Greenblatt went on to fault the Israeli government for abandoning the two-state solution, which most American Jews regard as an article of faith, and for the bad “optics” of coming down on independent media and judges.

IfNotNow and Jewish Voice for Peace have opposed anti-Semitism in no uncertain terms, and issued defiant statements on the Pittsburgh massacre. Neither group takes an explicit position on Zionism, though JVP’s work has an anti-Zionist character, including support for BDS (boycott, divestment and sanctions). IfNotNow has a non-Zionist character; its core principle is to end American Jewish establishment’s support for the occupation.

In his remarks last January, Greenblatt described a rise in anti-Semitic incidents in the U.S. and again hit his both-sides theme.

“We saw a 67 percent increase in violence, vandalism directed at Jewish institutions. We saw a 100 percent increase in bullying incidents against Jewish children. We saw a 60 percent increase in anti-Semitic harassment on college campuses. So this is very real and it’s key to remember that this comes from the left and the right…

“Again it’s coming from both sides…

“Whether you’re a leader in elected office or you command some other public platform, it’s important to call this stuff out. Simply based on the facts. And again not allow the politics to cloud the conversation… You can’t give people a pass and say, ‘You know what, I don’t care about what they say about Jews, because they’re good on the Jewish state.’ And by the way you can’t get away with, ‘I don’t care what they say about the Jewish state, because they’re good on Jewish issues.’ No! Antisemitism is unacceptable no matter where it comes from. Period, end of story.”

Apropos of the white nationalist rally in Charlottesville last summer, which the Israeli government was slow to condemn because it supports Trump, Greenblatt urged Israeli officials to take rightwing anti-Semitism as seriously as they do anti-Zionism.

“As we look ahead, I think we would hope that whoever the elected government here in Israel, you take these issues of anti-semitism in the U.S. as seriously as you take anti-semitism when it’s spoken in the General Assembly in the U.N. or in any other institution. Call it out, call it for what it is.”

Greenblatt was a successful businessman, including being a Starbucks executive, before becoming a Jewish professional. He served in the Obama White House as Special Assistant to the President and Director of the Office of Social Innovation and Civic Participation. In that job he led “efforts to utilize human capital and financial capital to bring attention to community solutions,” per Wikipedia.

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70 Responses

  1. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    October 30, 2018, 5:08 pm

    « [Trump] also exacerbated that cleavage I think. »

    Unfortunate phrasing for the guy with the toadstool penis. ”

    Greenblatt is arguing that a Jew who says that Israel should be run along the lines of the phrase from Deuteronomy «  Zedek, zedek, tirdof”, (“Justice, justice shall you Pursue) is no different to a Nazi who says that Jews are the offspring of Satan.

    This is not rational

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      October 31, 2018, 10:40 am

      @Maghlawatan, et al

      Off topic, but this just released short video is a “must watch.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQHLcpN_hrg&feature=youtu.be&a=

      “A Palestinian Shopkeeper’s Message to the World” – Oct. 29/18

      • eljay
        eljay
        October 31, 2018, 12:15 pm

        || Misterioso: @Maghlawatan, et al

        Off topic, but this just released short video is a “must watch.” … ||

        … “At the end we [are] all human being[s] and we must respect each other.” …

        That is a far better – and more just and moral – message than any Zionist message of Jewish / “Jewish State” supremacism and entitlement.

  2. Keith
    Keith
    October 30, 2018, 5:18 pm

    JONATHAN GREENBLATT- “We saw a 67 percent increase in violence, vandalism directed at Jewish institutions.”

    I would so love these claims of anti-Semitism to be put into perspective. What is the murder rate of US Jews versus US Non-Jews? What is the assault rate of US Jews versus US non-Jews? And so forth. And I don’t want to see any data about “hate crimes,” a subjective label frequently politically motivated. What does the real world empirical data show? Are Jews more or less likely to be victims of crime than non-Jews? I strongly suspect that empirical data would show that Jews are less likely to be victims of crime than non-Jews.

    • Jon66
      Jon66
      October 30, 2018, 6:25 pm

      Keith,
      Murder is not the only metric and you seem to be intentionally missing the point. I don’t know how many crosses are burned on the lawns of black people in America. But one is too much.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 30, 2018, 7:13 pm

        I agree one is too many.

        You are also missing the point.

        The numbers grossly mistated and mischaracterized.

        The actual number of violent incidents was cut almost in half over the prior year. From 37 to 19.

        Based on timing and volume it appears they left the calls made by the Israeli settler teen in the totals.

        In short the adl is once again doing it’s duty by selling out the Jewish community and issuing propaganda for Israel.

      • annie
        annie
        October 30, 2018, 8:14 pm

        i agree one is too many. here’s what i don’t like, i don’t like taking a violent mass murder perpetrated by a deranged white supremacist used as an opportunity to pressure western society into a confrontational argument about how the left is just as bad. we’re already completely inundated with accusations of hatred and anti bds laws, and campus spying and all that. so to use this to have more of the same is nothing but errant equivalence, a concept for point scoring you can read about in the hasbara handbook.

        and as i have pointed out before, you can’t measure these percentages without taking into account the violence perpetrated against black, hispanic, muslim and arab american communities because so much of the violence against them is perpetrated by the state. so of course it’s not included. look at the holy land 5, nothing like that happens against members of the jewish american communities. look at the spying in the mosques, that doesn’t happen to synagogues. no, in fact a synagogue was the target of the government undercover mole sent into that town to recruit mentally disabled people to commit a crime for the purpose of a big terrorist fbi gotcha attack they made the “Newburgh Sting” movie about. in the film the undercover guy tries to get him to pick a place and he says a bridge, and the fbi guy says no, a synagogue and up and coming perp asks him why? so here we have yet another statistic. or in the UK when you have this invasive thing in the schools spying on muslim kids, how is that not a crime and part of a statistic? really, when you structurally and meticulously set up an org to make a point, you can make that point. you can also repeat that point ad nauseam in the press, but then when a horrible crime takes place the point you want to make is not that the killer targeted jews, but that the killer is no worse than those who fight for human rights.

        sorry, the adl has no credibility. black kids get jail time and white kids get probation, and what does that do to statistics? no credibility.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 30, 2018, 9:07 pm

        Annie,
        I think the only person guilty of this crime is the criminal.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        October 30, 2018, 10:36 pm

        This is fascinating on many levels. The ADL
        Is basically a zionist NRA – a radicalised lobbying outfit that no longer fulfills its original community based purpose.

        The ADL is an attack dog for Zionism. At the highest level Zionism has officers who enable Trump’s white supremacism. This generates real antisemitism.

        The ADL wants Americans to believe murdering Jews is the same as Tzedek Tzedek Tzedek. Justice justice justice.

        https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/14/bds-boycott-divestment-sanctions-movement-transformed-israeli-palestinian-debate

        . “The core issue is not whether they are going to boycott us or not boycott us,” Kuperwasser said. “The core issue is whether they are going to be successful in implanting in the international discourse that Israel is illegitimate as a Jewish state.”

        The boy who cried wolf for millennials

        BTW Annie I don’t think it is helpful to call people like the Squirrel Hill Killer crazy. A lot of violence in the US is structural.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 30, 2018, 11:00 pm

        @Mag

        Yes you are right about the structural issues but he was still crazy. The structure enables and, even worse, encourages him and those like him.

      • annie
        annie
        October 30, 2018, 11:28 pm

        Maghlawatan, deranged is what i called him. whether it is helpful to call him that or not is subjective i suppose. but i think anyone who would commit that crime is deranged. not that different than sitting on a hill with a uniform on slaughtering protestors because your society fills you with fear of the other. completely deranged.

        jon, i’m not sure about that, about only one guilty party. lots of incitement going on. i thought it was diversionary to evade keith’s point by telling him he was “intentionally missing the point”. greenblatt’s? he was countering it. ” Are Jews more or less likely to be victims of crime than non-Jews?” either you know or you don’t.

        a teenage boy was murdered today at a high school. the reason, allegedly, was “bullying”. do you know how common that is? (bullying i mean, not killing the bully or the bully getting killed) had the murdered kid been jewish they would have called it anti semitism and it would have been called a hate crime. but many jews know how to bully, quite well in fact. many kill with impunity and greenblatt doesn’t blink an eye. i think it may be you who’s intentionally missing keith’s point. when you start politicizing antisemitism, which is exactly what changing the definition of it to include antizionism or criticism of israel is, you might as well just flush greenblatt’s numbers down the toilet. because the only people that will mean anything to is people who agree with him.

        i don’t trust greenblatt anymore that i trust kenneth marcus, the civil rights tsar, what a joke. i think greenblatt is a snake. i don’t trust the adl, therefore i don’t trust their percentages. they want to label people who believe in equal rights as racist.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 30, 2018, 11:42 pm

        @annie

        Tabletmag called Greenblatt out on his propaganda and fictional numbers.

        I will end today with a concession. Maybe Zionists and Israel supporters are both moral and right. If they are they do need to stop the lies and distortions.

        Israel supporters are endangering Jewish people. There is always blowback to any position right or wrong. Israel does not endanger itself as it has nukes. It endangers Jewish people not in in Israel. It endangers innocents.
        At least two yrs ago I said that hiding Zionism behind Judaism will not have a happy ending. I will not feel any guilt for standing for equal rights for all. The Zionists will own it no matter how heavy their crocodile tears may be. It is their choice but sadly I believe I know what choice they will make, based on 70 yrs of history, and it won’t be pretty or anything they or I want
        .

      • annie
        annie
        October 31, 2018, 12:09 am

        oldgeezer, i just read your comment at the end of the thread, exactly.

        i’m not sure which tablet article you mean but i’d be interested in reading it. as for “Israel supporters are endangering Jewish people”, i agree whole heartedly on many levels. greenblatt said that American jews were “literally the fulcrum” of the polarization of American politics “in a way they’ve never been before”. the nightflower is not thriving in the dark at all. it’s been exposed during the term of the most xenophobic racist president of my lifetime.

        his strong embrace [trump’s embrace of israel] I think has allowed a number of folks on the left to … try to mainstream their views, and plant themselves into the center of progressive discourse in the United States, and it’s really quite damaging.

        it’s weird, first he talks about american jews being “”literally the fulcrum” of the polarization of US politics but he doesn’t seem to realize he’s very much trying to ‘mainstream his views’ and ‘plant himself into the center of progressive discourse’ in the United States. oh no, that’s the left. and our views are becoming mainstream because the more people look at the situation there (israel) the more dangerous it becomes. and what’s he doing about that? using the same playbook, the same talking points as the radical right in israeli politics.

        but our white supremacists could care less about human rights, or equal rights for palestinians. they worry about white genocide, using the same definition of genocide used by israel supporters w/intermarriage. their core beliefs are aligned w/zionism because they are both ethnic nationalists.

      • Keith
        Keith
        October 31, 2018, 12:35 am

        JON66- Murder is not the only metric and you seem to be intentionally missing the point.”

        Curious that my response to you didn’t pass moderation. There is a lesson there.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        October 31, 2018, 3:17 am

        Probably not your best work, Keith.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        October 31, 2018, 7:41 am

        @oldgeezer and Annie

        US Jews are not murdered en masse at prayer unless something is seriously wrong in the US. Calling the killer crazy ignores what drove him to kill.

        Fox is a fever swamp of conspiracies including antisemitism

        Soros
        https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/in-the-news/chris-farrell-migrant-caravan-consists-of-mostly-males/

        Ingraham caravan

        https://youtu.be/mekxrYxEvEA

        Modern Western culture does not have a framework to describe what is happening now. Older cultures do. Hindu, Aztec and Irish mythology all have a God of chaos.

        In a different context the killer would not have been poisoned by Fox. He would not have killed anyone.

        The GOP is doping people with the caravan and Kavanaugh and lies about a 10% tax cut.

      • annie
        annie
        October 31, 2018, 8:52 am

        mag, i didn’t “ignore” what drove him to kill.

        not that different than sitting on a hill with a uniform on slaughtering protestors because your society fills you with fear of the other. completely deranged.

        is there a particular reason you keep claiming i called the killer crazy? that’s your terminology. if you don’t believe being poisoned by Fox leads to derangement just say so.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 31, 2018, 11:20 am

        @annie

        Not exactly a prompt response and you have probably found the article by now but this is the one I was referring to:

        https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/273777/correcting-the-adls-false-anti-semitism-statistic

        I plead a 4.5 hr time zone diff!

      • annie
        annie
        October 31, 2018, 11:44 am

        thanks oldgeezer! no worries on timeframe. wow, that article is certainly a debunking.

        “Correcting the ADL’s False Anti-Semitism Statistic”

        ….The problem is that no sound empirical data exists that shows an increase in anti-Semitism during the Trump administration that would justify such claims, while the data that does exist, like a much cited ADL study, proves no such thing.

        Undoubtedly many readers are silently protesting, “What about the ADL statistic showing a 57 percent increase in anti-Semitic incidents in 2017,” a figure reported by NPR, The New York Times, the Post, and many other media outlets.

        In fact, that’s not what the study shows and despite the way it has been portrayed in the ADL’s own press release, the actual findings don’t even purport to show any such thing.

        Most important, the study does not actually claim to count “anti-Semitic incidents,” as such but rather the reporting of these events. First, it purports to count those incidents that have been reported to the ADL by the media, law enforcement, and the public. The ADL acknowledges that some of the increase in documented incidents is not an actual increase, but results from “more people … reporting incidents to ADL than ever before.”

        Second, the report does not count only actual anti-Semitic incidents, but any incident that results “in Jews perceiving themselves as being victimized due to their Jewish identity.” As a result of this methodological tic, the ADL’s tally includes 163 bomb threats made to Jewish Community Centers and other Jewish institutions in early 2017, even though the two perpetrators were not motivated by anti-Semitism.

        Relatedly, 2017 saw an unusually high level of concern in the Jewish community over perceived threats, a result of both Trump’s victory and the JCC calls. This likely led to an increase in ambiguous incidents being reported to the ADL as anti-Semitic. We know, for example, that one purported example of anti-Semitic cemetery vandalism turned out to be just old stones toppling over from poor upkeep (the ADL deleted that one from its tally), and another turned out, according to police, to be the product of a “drunk and mad” individual with no anti-Semitic intent (the ADL did not delete that one from its tally).

        The ADL also reports that “college campuses saw a total of 204 incidents in 2017, compared to 108 in 2016.” How many of these incidents were of the alt-right nationalist variety, and how many were related to leftist anti-Israel activism? There is no way of knowing from the ADL study, but to the extent the latter was the cause, that could hardly be blamed on Trump.

        Finally, it’s worth noting, that despite showing a 57 percent increase in incidents overall, from 1,267 to 1,986, the ADL study shows a 47 percent decrease in physical assaults, from 37 to 19. This is obviously inconsistent with the meme that 2017 saw a surge in violent anti-Semitism. Physical assaults are also the most objective sort of incident to document, which adds to concerns about the robustness of the rest of the data.

        The ADL itself is primarily to blame for how its own study has been misconstrued and misused. As noted, the ADL’s press release accompanying the report was highly misleading. It publicized the assertion “that the number of anti-Semitic incidents was nearly 60 percent higher in 2017 than 2016,” which then became a meme and has spread throughout the media.

        Unfortunately, we can’t attribute the press release simply to overly enthusiastic PR personnel. ADL president Jonathan Greenblatt distorted the report’s findings as recently as two days ago in The New York Times, asserting that the ADL report found a 57 percent increase in anti-Semitic incidents in 2017. He added rather misleadingly that this figure includes “physical assaults,” though one assumes he understands that the report actually showed a large decrease in physical assaults.

        I have no desire to let Trump off the hook for his very real flaws, and I am not nor have I been a Trump supporter or apologist. But the Jewish community’s assessment of the dangers of anti-Semitism should be based on documented facts, not ideology, emotion, partisanship, or panic. And the truth is this: The claim that anti-Semitic incidents increased 57 percent in 2017 is contradicted by the very ADL study on which that claim is based.

        i recommend reading it at the link for all the supporting embeds.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 31, 2018, 11:25 am

        @Mag

        I certainly didn’t and don’t ignore the fact that something is seriously wrong. I don’t overlook the factors that drove him to kill.

        I did use the word crazy. I think anyone who commits mass murder or even murder is crazy. Not a clinical diagnosis. Not an excuse or relieving of responsibility for what drove him to take that final action.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 31, 2018, 1:29 pm

        “but our white supremacists could care less about human rights, or equal rights for palestinians. they worry about white genocide, using the same definition of genocide used by israel supporters w/intermarriage. their core beliefs are aligned w/zionism because they are both ethnic nationalists.”

        Exactly. Americans will learn to distinguish between ‘good’ Zionist Jews and ‘bad’ Jews. Remember, there’s good and bad in every minority.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 31, 2018, 1:41 pm

        “Probably not your best work, Keith.”

        More likely it was just fine, but the creaky, overloaded Internet dropped the comment. That happens to a good, oh, say 20% of my comments. All my best, most piquant and picaresque effusions, too. Probably find them in the Rocky Mountains some day eating each other to stay alive.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 31, 2018, 2:20 pm

        Here, “Jon66” I’ve got your metrics for you, right here

        “Echoing Gunman’s Rhetoric, Gaffney Says Soros & HIAS Aren’t Victims Of Anti-Semitism”

    • DaBakr
      DaBakr
      October 31, 2018, 2:20 am

      @k

      As I said before, Jewish hate crimes like vandalism and nuisance crime may be up but actual physical violence against American Jews is not. The bomb threats were mostly by a disturbed Israeli Jewish teen and some by a radical American black journalist. That skews even more. Fanaticism combined with unhinged violence is probably the statistic that’s truly up. San Bernardino, the church shooting, school massacres, truck ramming, Boston Marathon, white cops killing unarmed black men.one can’t blame it all on the inflammatory trump

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      October 31, 2018, 10:06 am

      Another thought to consider:
      There is always going to be a predictable level of deviant behavior in society. Deviance is a normal and necessary part of any society because it contributes to the social order.
      So, a certain level of cross burning, hate grafitti, might be healthy.

      Affirmation Of Cultural Norms And Values:
      Seeing a person punished for a deviant act reinforces what a society sees as acceptable or unacceptable behavior. Sentencing a thief to prison affirms our culturally held value that stealing is wrong. Just as some people believe that the concept of God could not exist without the concept of the devil, deviance helps us affirm and define our own norms.

      Clarification Of Right And Wrong:
      Responses to deviant behavior help individuals distinguish between right and wrong. When a student cheats on a test and receives a failing grade for the course, the rest of the class learns that cheating is wrong and will not be tolerated.

      Unification Of Others In Society:
      Responses to deviance can bring people closer together. In the aftermath of the attacks on September 11, 2001, people across the United States, and even the world, were united in their shock and grief. There was a surge in patriotic feeling and a sense of social unity among the citizens of the United States.

      Promoting Social Change:
      Deviance can also encourage the dominant society to consider alternative norms and values. Rosa Parks’s act of deviance in Montgomery, Alabama, in 1955 led to the U.S. Supreme Court’s declaration that segregation on public transportation was unconstitutional.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 31, 2018, 4:37 pm

        “So, a certain level of cross burning, hate grafitti, might be healthy.”

        Oh, I see! When they burn their cross or mark up private property, they get thrown into jail for malicious vandalism raised to felonies by hate crimes offenses, and that teaches other people not to do it. Have I got it right?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 1, 2018, 2:02 am

        “Sentencing a thief to prison affirms our culturally held value that stealing is wrong. ”

        If there were no thieves, we would not need that value.

        “Just as some people believe that the concept of God could not exist without the concept of the devil,…”

        Some people are not very good at thinking.

        “… deviance helps us affirm and define our own norms.”

        If there were no deviance, we wouldn’t need to define and affirm the norms.

    • snaidamast
      snaidamast
      October 31, 2018, 7:21 pm

      I thought the same thing… :-)

      For example, if a single Jewish person is murdered in 2017 and then two Jewish people are murdered in 2018, this then is a 100% increase in crimes against Jews.

      Statistics are very easy to skew and making statements about increases in crimes or other forms of assault on Jews without any context makes such statements completely meaningless…

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        November 1, 2018, 12:47 am

        People generally are not good at numbers. Any ADL index will be loaded with bias
        Maybe Neturei Karta could be responsible for the index. What really counts is volatility- when the numbers leave their usual pattern and antisemitism spikes. The

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 1, 2018, 4:03 pm

        “when the numbers leave their usual pattern and antisemitism spikes.”

        That’ll happen after a distinction is made between the ‘bad’ Jews, who bring it on ourselves, and the ‘good’ Jews, who they wouldn’t hurt at all.

  3. Mooser
    Mooser
    October 30, 2018, 7:01 pm

    “Murder is not the only metric”

    Exactly, “Jon66” Why should 11 murders, or indeed, any numbers of murders of American Jews disturb the relationship between Israel and the US?

    Oh, BTW, what’s the “metric” for Gazans?

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      October 30, 2018, 11:02 pm

      @Mooser

      We know it takes a lot just to be worth a fingernail. Can’t imagine the ratio for human versus human.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 31, 2018, 1:17 pm

        Notice, that Zionists have one overriding unity of purpose concerning the Pittsburgh Synagogue murders: to absolve Trump and the Repubs.

      • annie
        annie
        October 31, 2018, 2:43 pm

        mooser, i notice it, and they do it very robustly, unlike their absolutions for MbS which was much more muted, lots of handwringing. worse optics? strange.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 31, 2018, 2:28 pm

        @Mooser

        Hmm yes, mixed promoting Israel on the graves of the deceased.

        No depth too deep.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 31, 2018, 2:49 pm

        “to absolve Trump and the Repubs.”

        And to distinguish between the good Jews and the bad Jews. The Netanyahoo-Trump Jews and the HIAS Jews.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 31, 2018, 5:27 pm

        “mooser, i notice it, and they do it very robustly, unlike their absolutions for MbS”

        They’re not expecting any push-back from establishment Judaism or Zionism. Yes, they can proceed very confidently with this.

  4. oldgeezer
    oldgeezer
    October 30, 2018, 7:37 pm

    Greenblatt is not a mere apologist for the structural and rampant racism in Israel but a proponent. He has ignored crimes against humanity while pretending to lead a human rights organization.

    He has misrepresented the antisemitism statistics for a political purpose. Israel.

    He is a part of the problem and has nothing interesting to say to those who seek a real solution.

  5. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    October 31, 2018, 12:07 am

    Because of its history plus the personality of Abe Foxman, the ADL has a long road to travel before its spokesman’s words will be taken at face value. I think the ADL should emphasize the Diaspora rather than Israel; that should be its role, but they run their organization according to their own lights and probably currying favor with a small coterie of donors making the primary decisions and thus the emphasis on Zion is probably part of the mindset of the donors besides the institution.

    I think Trump’s “there are fine people on both sides” is the worst statement by a president since Buchanan (the guy before Lincoln) and though I know that Iran and BDS are the two issues that animate Zionists, Trump really is my primary concern right now and whether the country is really one nation indivisible seems to be anyone’s guess. I fear not.

  6. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    October 31, 2018, 12:14 am

    As far as Jews being victims of crime, I would think that if you’re interested in violent crime rather than white collar crime, Jews are not in the violent crime business, that’s never been their thing and so they probably don’t hang out with people who are in the violent crime state of mind. (of course there’s white collar crime, which seems our specialty and of course meyer lansky and his crew, so there are exceptions and joel steinberg was a famous wife beater and child beater) but i betcha that violent crime perpetrated by jews is a rarity and most murders are not of the colombo variety, but of the kojak variety, so jews are not the victim of violent crime because of their niche in society. so therefore to make up for it, we deserve to be killed by nazis every once in a while, is that the point?

    • annie
      annie
      October 31, 2018, 12:34 am

      Jews are not in the violent crime business, that’s never been their thing

      slaughtering palestinians aside.

      either way, deranged people come in all different stripes. you can’t always tell what sets them off. https://forward.com/news/breaking-news/333862/columbine-shooter-had-jewish-roots-dreaded-passover-seder/

      Columbine school shooter Dylan Klebold revealed he was Jewish when he mentioned dreading a family Passover seder — creating a tense moment with his fellow shooter, his mother said.

      Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris had openly admired Adolf Hitler. They opened fire on students and teachers at Columbine High School in Columbine, Colorado, on the Nazi leader’s birthday in 1999, killing 12 classmates and a teacher and wounding 23 people before taking their own lives.

      Dylan’s mother, Sue Klebold, confirmed to radio host Terry Gross on “Fresh Air” Tuesday that she is Jewish, and her now ex-husband, Dylan Klebold’s father, is Lutheran, and said her son had not wanted to attend the family’s Passover seder, which took place weeks before the shooting.

      She recalled seeing a video after the shooting in which Dylan Klebold mentioned the upcoming seder, leading to a tense moment with Harris, who she thinks was previously unaware Klebold had Jewish family.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      October 31, 2018, 10:00 am

      @wondering Jew

      “Jews are not in the violent crime business, that’s never been their thing and so they probably don’t hang out with people who are in the violent crime state of mind.” Utter nonsense!!

      Zionist Jews have been “in the violent crime business” for well over 70 years. Setting aside their ongoing slaughter of defenseless indigenous Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, here are just a few examples of past monstrous crimes they committed against Palestinian Arabs:

      “Survival of the fittest”
      By Ari Shavit Haaretz, January 8, 2004

      https://www.haaretz.com/1.5262454
      Ari Shavit interviews Benny Morris

      EXCERPT:
      “According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?”

      “Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field – they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village – she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

      “The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

      “That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.”

    • eljay
      eljay
      October 31, 2018, 10:52 am

      || wondering jew: … Jews are not in the violent crime business … ||

      Neither are Italians. Or Russians.

      || … so jews are not the victim of violent crime because of their niche in society. so therefore to make up for it, we deserve to be killed by nazis every once in a while, is that the point? ||

      No-one deserves to be oppressed or killed by anyone – not by Nazis, not by Italians or Russians and not even by Jews.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 31, 2018, 1:59 pm

      “… Jews are not in the violent crime business …”

      We shrink from it. Too nice to actually hurt anybody.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 31, 2018, 2:31 pm

        @Mooser

        I would argue it is very true. Christians aren’t in the violent crime business. Muslims aren’t in the violent crime business. Come to think of it that is true for every religion and ethnicity I can think of.

        We just seem to do, or support, a lot of it.

        Maybe it would go under hobbies or interests on the CV?

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 31, 2018, 6:19 pm

      “Jews are not in the violent crime business, that’s never been their thing and so they probably don’t hang out with people who are in the violent crime state of mind.”

      Amazing and inspiring. All that persecution, all that oppression, expulsion abridgment of rights, even massacre, and we never descended to violent crime.

  7. Kay24
    Kay24
    October 31, 2018, 5:38 am

    It was predictable that the zionist supporters would lay blame, or connect this heinous crime, to the BDS movement, or those fighting for the rights of Palestinians. Nutty Yahoo would have made hay enough to fill those illegal settlements, had this killer been a Muslim. But hey, this is a white Christian, with no ties to Muslims, Arabs, or Palestinians, so let’s show support for the man who gave us Jerusalem, and ignore his disgusting response to this terrible crime, and his love for white supremacists.

  8. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    October 31, 2018, 9:52 am

    NBC News
    NBC News
    @NBCNews
    Loren Jacobs, who was invited onstage by VP Pence to speak at a rally in Michigan, was defrocked 15 years ago, according to a spokeswoman for the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 31, 2018, 2:06 pm

      “was defrocked 15 years ago, according to a spokeswoman for the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.”

      I don’t think that should stand in the way of adding the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations to the Nation-State to replace the HIAS Conservatives. Pence meant well. And how was he supposed to know?

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        October 31, 2018, 3:32 pm

        I suppose a defrocked American rabbi is less fake than a left wing Israeli history teacher, Mooser

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 31, 2018, 4:31 pm

        “I suppose a defrocked American rabbi is less fake than a left wing Israeli history teacher”

        Did I already tell you what they call the guy who is in charge of voicing pipe-organs in Synagogues? Oh, I did? Okay, forget it.

  9. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    October 31, 2018, 12:16 pm

    Upon consideration: the interplay between anti Jewish thought and anti Israel thought is really complex and interesting. Because America’s original sins are racial (vis a vis African Americans and people of color from America, north and south), the political phenomenon known as antisemitism is of relatively minor importance. But America is part of the world and takes part in the history of the world and curiosity about this phenomenon should be a sign of intelligence.

    Zionism, a particular movement to achieve sovereignty by force of arms over a particular territory (Zion) certainly is quite different from Jewish modes of coping and niches in society that have been enduring themes of the relevant past. Whatever the justification and the causes of its birth and success, it is “something completely different”.

    That is not to say that Jews got along famously with their hosts and did not find niches in economic classes that had interests which clashed with other economic niches. That is not to say that the survival of this anomalous social grouping was not accomplished without the development of belligerent or apathetic attitudes towards other groups or host nations. That is not to say that the anomalous survival of this group was not accompanied by behaviors that are found in similar groupings that fit into some similar economic niches in host nations.

    Most white americans are opposed to illegal immigration. White Jews, I conjecture, are less opposed to it by substantial margins. The cosmopolitanism of urban Jews is the explanation, while those of a more belligerent nature might find more specific economic or social advantages of more unlimited immigration policies.

    The primary Jewish products since World War II have been 1. a lone project (except when serving geopolitical interests) of sovereignty over territory in the 972 region. and 2. a joint project with other like-minded westerners regarding progressive causes in the west and particularly in America (and the height of that achievement was LBJ before Vietnam brought him down). These two projects really have little to do with each other. But the mixing up of animus towards the first project with animus towards the second project is part of the palette of colors going into the painting that is the world today.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 31, 2018, 7:10 pm

      “Zionism, a particular movement to achieve sovereignty by force of arms over a particular territory (Zion)”

      Do you mean fighting the British for it or the Palestinians for it?

      But glad you admit all that “National Home” and “Refuge for the Jews” is so much nonsense. It was a movement by Zionists for Zionists to steal a country.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        October 31, 2018, 11:39 pm

        mooser’s family, or the part that he cares about, made it to america. those who found refuge in 972, he doesn’t care. would prefer if they had gone up the chimney at auschwitz. less complications for him.

      • eljay
        eljay
        November 1, 2018, 8:31 am

        || wondering jew: mooser’s family, or the part that he cares about, made it to america. those who found refuge in 972, he doesn’t care. would prefer if they had gone up the chimney at auschwitz. less complications for him. ||

        Wow, that’s an astoundingly hateful comment – and a lovely bit of hypocrisy – coming from someone who just the other day ranted about the dearth of civility on MW.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 1, 2018, 3:57 pm

        “mooser’s family, or the part that he cares about, made it to america. those who found refuge in 972, he doesn’t care. would prefer if they had gone up the chimney at auschwitz. less complications for him.”

        Oh c’mon “Yonah” stop with the seventh grade stuff already. Try a little civility.

        All that hostility just for thinking the Zionists could have done much better? All that hostility for having a little faith in the ethics and tradition of Judaism?

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        November 1, 2018, 10:50 pm

        Mooser – you can see from the US how polarisation works when one half of the population feeds off fear, hatred and lies for a few years while the other doesn’t. The answer is institutions that transcend the divide so that the normal half can heal the lost half . It happened before with scouts etc.

        Israeli society has been running fear, hatred, lies and violence since before 1948. There is a normal half but they are Palestinian. Israel continues to iterate nihilism. It can’t see the big picture.
        It is fascinating mixture of settler colonialism and trauma.
        The US will eventually leave #FakeNews and trade wars behind but Israel can’t escape its nightmare.

        Of course they could have done better but not with Zionism. It is too naive as an ideology.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        November 2, 2018, 1:54 am

        “one half of the population feeds off fear, hatred and lies for a few years while the other doesn’t. ”

        From the outside, it looks as though both halves of the US population feed on fear, hatred, and lies, but with different sets of fears, hatreds, and lies.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 2, 2018, 12:52 pm

        “From the outside, it looks as though both halves of the US population feed on fear, hatred, and lies, but with different sets of fears, hatreds, and lies.”

        And the water swirls the wrong way, too.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      November 1, 2018, 12:12 am

      But let me talk about that which is most relevant to this website (though not during the week after Pittsburgh): those who reject the Jewish sovereignty over 972 movement, but aside from that movement they would be as philosemitic as Emile Zola.

      There are those who are pure as the driven snow regarding antisemitism, yet recoil from the harm that was done (and is being done) to the Palestinians. I would include Donald and M Hughes among the commentators in this category. (There may be others.)

      In fact despite their purity there still is a clash between someone like myself and them, firstly: because the cure they have in mind is utopian. The Las Vegas odds vary between 9:1 and 7:3 that a mass return of refugees plus one man one vote will lead to regression in terms of Jewish safety in 972. And secondly: the gist of Jewish political pride favors sovereignty and opposes a right of return for Palestinian refugees and thus if one asks, “whose side are you on?” they are against Jewish political pride.

      (I realize this term of Jewish political pride is a bit difficult to swallow. When Naftali Bennett in his Pittsburgh speech ended with the phrase, “Am Yisroel Chai!” to some this is the phrase of Jewish supremacism or something like that, but to me it is essential in the aftermath of the history of pre 1945 to counter that history with pride. The alternative to me is primarily shame or amnesia. Unfortunately those who are leading the pride bandwagon, the current prime minister and his party, are not seeking a solution but a perpetuation of the occupation. Therefore these purveyors of pride are also priding themselves in the harm done to the Palestinians, which I do not share. Nonetheless the antiZionist crowd has not come up with much in terms of anything other than amnesia and let’s call the whole thing off, pull up our tent and call it a day. I think that is the role of “If Not Now” to find a combination of Jewish pride and a desire to end the occupation. This is not the common stance of most Jewish antizionists, which is usually of the “let’s call the whole thing off” variety.)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 1, 2018, 5:10 pm

        The last third of your comment is in loco parentheses.
        Why is that?

      • eljay
        eljay
        November 2, 2018, 8:42 am

        || wondering jew: … (I realize this term of Jewish political pride is a bit difficult to swallow. … ||

        “Jewish political pride” sounds so much more benign than “Jewish supremacism and colonialism”.

        || … When Naftali Bennett in his Pittsburgh speech ended with the phrase, “Am Yisroel Chai!” to some this is the phrase of Jewish supremacism or something like that, but to me it is essential in the aftermath of the history of pre 1945 to counter that history with pride. … ||

        Again, “pride” sounds so much better than “supremacism and colonialism”.

        || … The alternative to me is primarily shame or amnesia. … ||

        It’s sad and tragic that you Zionists equate highly-moral values like justice, accountability and equality with “shame” or “amnesia” or even with “hate”.

        || … Nonetheless the antiZionist crowd has not come up with much in terms of anything other than amnesia and let’s call the whole thing off, pull up our tent and call it a day. … ||

        It’s not that the anti-Zionist crowd hasn’t come up with much – it’s that justice, accountability and equality may not seem like much to someone invested in a specific brand of supremacism and colonialism.

        (But don’t worry: Supremacist supporters of White/Christian pride – who bemoan what they view as the anti-White/Christian crowd’s expectations of “shame” or “amnesia” – feel your pain.)

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      November 2, 2018, 1:59 am

      “Most white americans are opposed to illegal immigration.”

      I have gained the impression that most Hispanic Americans are opposed to it, as well.

      “White Jews, I conjecture, are less opposed to it by substantial margins.”

      So white Jews do not mind people breaking US law?

  10. amigo
    amigo
    October 31, 2018, 4:54 pm

    The IHRA Caravan has infiltrated the US border.

    Greenblatt includes all and any objection to (his beloved) Israel ,s actions against the Palestinian People. This how his numbers are so inflated.

    Hey , he is just doing his job.To lie, misstate and inflate the numbers with the goal of keeping alive the Myth of Jewish victim hood.

    His job description does not include providing evidence of his claims .

    Zionism and facts are a contradiction in terms.

    Abe taught him well.

  11. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    October 31, 2018, 5:02 pm

    Jennifer Rubin
    @JRubinBlogger
    ·
    20h
    A hundred-strong delegation of the Pittsburgh Steelers came to pay their respects, including the owner, the general manager, dozens of players and Mike Tomlin, the head coach, who lives in Squirrel Hill. (link: https://nyti.ms/2yEYKKH) nyti.ms/2yEYKKH Just. Wonderful.

  12. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    October 31, 2018, 5:16 pm

    As I mentioned a few days ago Greenblatt was the go to guy for Velshi, Ruhle, Katy Tur, Melber, Mitchell etc on MSNBC. Everyone of them was nodding their heads as he equated all alleged anti Semitic activities on college campuses as hate crimes.

    Not arguing that anti semitic language and actions has not taken place. Arguing about sources and methods of categorizing.

    Wondering if any of you Mondo pro’s have ever gone through the claims at ADL in regard to campus activities.

    The massacre of 11 elderly Jewish members at the Tree of Life synagogue is beyond horrendous. Tears, prayers, action against access to weapons. Those slaughtered and the destruction of the sanctuary deserve endless coverage.

    However the killings of two black individuals in Kentucky at a Krogers is not even getting a smidget of the coverage that the Tree of Life killing’s are getting.

    Why is that the case?
    Someone could do a media study on that one. ADL, Media Matters etc

    Wondering why the Southern Poverty Law Center would have been used on MSNBC more in regard to hate crimes?

    • Kathleen
      Kathleen
      November 1, 2018, 11:25 am

      Wondering why SPLC is not used more as a source for hate group stats , incidents etc on MSNBC and other outlets?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        November 1, 2018, 7:06 pm

        “Wondering why SPLC is not used more as a source for hate group stats”

        Hello, “Kathleen”. You can Google it but I’m pretty sure that when the SPLC became well established with adequate funding, the wingnuts (I forget which ones maybe ‘Judicial Watch) went on a smear campaign against it.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        November 2, 2018, 11:35 am

        Have gone to SPLC’s website for years. Have also used SPLC stats to shine the light on hate groups in Ohio, Kentucky, W Virginia with other activist in Ohio for decades.

        What I am wondering is why MSNBC etc would always go to Greenblatt and ADL which have a history of turning “anti-Semitic” stats into a way to prop up Israel and divert attention away from efforts to shine the light on Israel’s decades long hate filled and violent policies and actions perpetrated on the Palestinians?

        Have never been aware of SPLC doing so.

  13. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    November 1, 2018, 8:23 am

    “But he’s embraced Israel in ways that are quite remarkable but he’s also really exacerbated that cleavage I think”.

    Doesn`t “excacerbating cleavage” have something to do with push up bras?

    Trump/Greenblatt great minds think alike.

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