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Bari Weiss clumsily regurgitates old hasbara talking points

Media Analysis
on 44 Comments

In her recent podcast discussion with Joe Rogan and in her New York Times column, Bari Weiss manages to make dishonest and endlessly rehashed hasbara talking points even worse.

Item one: When the subject of Israel came up with Rogan, Weiss offered:

“There’s an obsession on the State of Israel.  Like if you were an alien that landed from outer space, you would think that the greatest oppressor in the world is this tiny state that’s the size of New Jersey. These people say nothing generally about the genocide of Uighur Muslims in China. . . It’s an enormous story [and it’s appalling] that you don’t know about it.”

At first hearing, this is just another nauseating attempt to shame Israel’s critics as anti-Semites for elevating concern for Palestinians over supposedly more deserving victims elsewhere in the world. Weiss, however, is especially vulnerable to the comeback, “What about you?” She enjoys an extremely prominent and influential media position as op-ed columnist for the Times, yet has never written a single column about the Uighurs for whom she feigns concern only as a pretext to defend Israel. And while she chides pro-Palestinian voices for their apathy over the Uighurs, she has never urged supporters of Israel to abandon their focus on an economic and military powerhouse and instead labor on behalf of the Uighurs.

Weiss and her ilk feel entitled to work tirelessly to support and defend Israel while bemoaning the fact that other people are interested in the same issue but have a contrary opinion. While everyone who makes this obscene “what about” argument is grossly hypocritical, Weiss’s ability to shine a light on what she pretends to feel is such a deserving yet under-covered cause makes her version especially embarrassing.

Item two: In her recent Israel-centered op-ed smearing Ilhan Omar for a six-year-old tweet, Weiss retreads another hasbara staple accusation that anti-Zionists are anti-Semitic for denying the Jews’ right to national self-determination:

“Those who call themselves anti-Zionists usually insist they are not anti-Semites. But I struggle to see what else to call an ideology that seeks to eradicate only one state in the world — the one that happens to be the Jewish one — while empathetically insisting on the rights of self-determination for every other minority.”

Once again, on the surface this appears to be merely a rehash of the immensely flawed but widely disseminated “Israel as Jewish self-determination” argument, but here it has a distinctive Bari-Weissian spin.  More careful hasbarists proffer the “self-determination” argument in the most vague and imprecise terms, implicitly suggesting that anti-Zionism would deprive Jewish people of a fundamental human right enjoyed by everyone else. But Jewish citizens of the US, UK, France, Canada, Argentina, etc. enjoy the very same right to national self-determination as their fellow citizens; so would Israeli Jews if they shared political power equally with others under their rule. So Israel actually offers Jews around the world a second right of national self-determination and its own Jewish citizens alone the “right” to discriminate against non-Jewish citizens and impose military rule over millions of non-citizens. For much more extensive analysis of the self-determination issue, see here.

Bari Weiss, rather than safely parroting the usual barebones self-determination argument with its deliberate built-in ambiguity, makes an ill-advised attempt to transform it into an explicit complaint of actual discrimination against Jews. She accuses anti-Zionists of espousing an “ideology” that denies Jewish self-determination “while empathetically insisting on the rights of self-determination for every other minority.”

Anti-Zionists insist on self-determination for every other minority? What about the Uighurs? I thought anti-Zionists didn’t care about them, or the Roma, the Basques, or anyone else other than Palestinians!

Weiss seems to be complaining not of anti-Zionism but more generally about her perception of “progressivisim.” Progressives have long championed self-determination and equal treatment of national minorities. Presuming that most anti-Zionists are also “progressives,” Weiss lazily lumps all of these concepts into an incoherent mess of a sentence whose foremost purpose is to accuse “anti-Zionists” of anti-Semitism.

Finally, while it’s the least of her offenses, Weiss should stop taking others’ material. When the subject of Tulsi Gabbard’s candidacy for President came up with Rogan, Weiss dismissed Gabbard as “the motherlode of bad ideas.” This unique phrase is one coined and repeatedly used by Sam Harris to describe Islam. It’s simply bizarre for Weiss to “borrow” the term and casually present it as her own.

Alan Dershowitz

Bizarre but not isolated. Recall Weiss’s reference above to the visitor from outer space mystified at all the negative attention focused on little Israel. This one suspiciously resembles a statement from that true motherlode of bad ideas, Alan Dershowitz, who has been peddling the same fantasy about an intergalactic visitor’s reaction to Israel’s treatment for many years. 2002:

If a visitor from a far away galaxy were to land at an American or Canadian university and peruse some of the petitions that were circulating around the campus, he would probably come away with the conclusion that the Earth is a peaceful and fair planet with only one villainous nation determined to destroy the peace and to violate human rights. That nation would not be Iraq, Libya, Serbia, Russia or Iran…

Of course, much of hasbara consists of a familiar repertoire of talking points –“bad neighborhood,” “surrounded by sworn enemies,” “Jew among nations,” “world’s oldest hatred” – and it would be unfair to accuse everyone who utters these insufferable cliches with the additional offense of quasi-plagiarism. But Weiss should be more careful about using unique phrases about “motherlodes” and visitors from outer space that were crafted by more imaginative though equally offensive commentators. And Bari, if you’re planning to start a blog, don’t name it Mondoweiss. It’s taken.

David Samel

David Samel is an attorney in New York City.

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44 Responses

  1. John Smithson on February 23, 2019, 2:13 pm

    Recalling the 4 pillars of Hasbara:

    1) We rock. (Israel is awesome, nobels, etc)
    2) They suck. (Palestinians are awful, teach kids to hate, etc.)
    3) You suck. (You’re an anti-Semite to say xyz, etc.)
    4) Everything sucks. (Look at other problems in the works! We’re not so bad as that!!)

    So for your article, Item 1 simply become Hasbara #4 and Item 2 is Hasbara #3.

    This list is not mine, learned it here. It’s useful and I thought appropriate for this article. Helps clarify one’s thinking.

    Enjoy!

    • Citizen on February 23, 2019, 3:08 pm

      I first learned it here, from Mooser. It’s a treasure to analysis.

  2. Maximus Decimus Meridius on February 23, 2019, 2:28 pm

    I had never heard of this woman until I read about her here but I can’t help thinking…. is she really the very best they can do? Decades old talking points, which were stale when I began taking an interest in the issue 15 years ago, and are positively Jurassic now.

    Is that the best they’ve got? It is, isn’t it?

    “yet has never written a single column about the Uighurs for whom she feigns concern only as a pretext to defend Israel.”

    Is it just me, or have the Uighers become a regular “look dat-a-way” meme for Zionist propagadists of late? I wonder if it’s because now that Israel is openly cozy with the worst Arab dictatorships, they can’t point to them as the baddies, like they once did?

    “But Jewish citizens of the US, UK, France, Canada, Argentina, etc. enjoy the very same right to national self-determination as their fellow citizens; so would Israeli Jews if they shared political power equally with others under their rule.”

    Well indeed. Not to mention that no group has the right to ‘self-determine’ at the expense of others, in a foreign land. And I wonder why it is that Ms Weiss, or her hero Alan Dershowitz, seem to appear quite self-determined in New York, and have not the slightest desire to ‘self-determine’ in a parochial Middle Eastern statelet?

    • JWalters on February 23, 2019, 8:23 pm

      Your most cynical suspicions are quite possibly correct. Their mindset is pretty stable.

    • Misterioso on February 25, 2019, 10:43 am

      @Maximus, et al

      For Bari Weiss’s much needed edification – not that she gives a damn. The woman’s ignorance and callousness are beyond words.

      Using the phony tactic of “whataboutery,” Ms. Weiss states:
      “There’s an obsession on the State of Israel. Like if you were an alien that landed from outer space, you would think that the greatest oppressor in the world is this tiny state that’s the size of New Jersey. These people say nothing generally about the genocide of Uighur Muslims in China. It’s an enormous story [and it’s appalling] that you don’t know about it.”

      We do “know about” the horrible plight of Uighur Muslims and people and governments around the world are raising the issue with China.

      It seems, however, Ms. Weiss, that you are not familiar with the old adage, “people in glass houses should not throw stones.”

      To be brief:
      Firstly, I remind you that the horrors the Muslim Rohingya are suffering at the hands of the government of Myanmar are virtually identical to those that befell defenseless Palestinians when 800,000 were dispossessed and expelled between late 1947 and the autumn of 1948 (according to Walter Eytan, then Director General of the Israeli Foreign Ministry) by Jewish militia and the IDF through force of arms, several massacres, mass rape and intimidation (see Israeli historian, Benny Morris for details.) Over 500 Palestinian towns and villages, including churches, mosques and cemeteries, were destroyed by Jewish forces of foreign origin and their homes, possessions and lands were permanently seized and their bank accounts and safety deposit boxes were looted.

      The same tactics were used by Israel before and during its first invasion/occupation of Egypt in 1956 when about 25,000 more Palestinians were permanently dispossessed expelled and during and after Israel launched the June 1967 war, when an additional approximately 250,000 Palestinians were driven out.

      True to form, Israel is now selling Myanmar weaponry its armed forces are using to brutalize, kill, dispossess and expel the Rohingya.

      To wit:
      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190206-israel-media-tel-aviv-still-arming-myanmar-military-despite-allegations-of-genocide/

      “Israel media: Tel Aviv still arming Myanmar military despite allegations of genocide”

      Middle East Monitor, Feb. 6/19

      “Israel still maintains ‘warm ties’ with Myanmar and is downplaying human rights concerns, a new report by the Times of Israel has uncovered today. Despite allegations of genocide of Rohingya Muslims, the Zionist state continues to claim that it’s ‘first friend’ in Asia is safe to trade with and has continued to sell arms to Myanmar’s military while ethnic cleansing and genocide were taking place in Rakhine State.

      “Confirming its well-earned reputation for assisting some of the most brutal regimes in the world, Israel has been selling arms to Myanmar long after most Western countries banned such sales over concerns that weapons sold to the country were likely being used to carry out genocide.

      “The United Nations has described the plight of Rohingya Muslims as a ‘text book’ example of genocide. Its conclusion was repeated recently by the chair of the UN fact-finding mission on Myanmar who described the latest situation as ‘an ongoing genocide.’

      “In December the US House of Representatives effectively rebuked the Trump administration and overwhelmingly passed a resolution declaring that Myanmar’s military has carried out genocide against Rohingya Muslims.

      “A key committee of the US Holocaust Memorial Museum has said that it also found ‘compelling evidence’ of genocide by Myanmar’s military against the Muslim minority Rohingya. Describing the situation, the chairman of the museum’s Committee on Conscience, Lee Feinstein was quoted by the Times of Israel saying: ‘The Burmese military’s campaign against the Rohingya, especially the attacks of August 2017, has been deliberate, systematic, and widespread.’

      “Their position was backed by the Centre for the Prevention of Genocide. ‘We want to help set the historical record for the future and for the Rohingya who continue to be at risk of genocide today,’ the centres deputy director was reported saying.

      “In one of the latest reports compiled by the US State Department, which tallied atrocities in the Buddhist-majority country’s northern Rakhine State, it was found that violence against Rohingya Muslims was ‘extreme, large-scale, widespread, and seems geared toward both terrorising the population and driving out the Rohingya residents.’ Some 1.1 million Rohingya have fled Myanmar.

      “Despite the widespread condemnation, however, Israel remains on friendly terms with Myanmar and has remained relatively silent, said the Times of Israel. While admitting that they couldn’t confirm if Israel was providing training, intelligence and surveillance technology, the report found that Tel Aviv had allowed its arms companies to sell weapons to Myanmar’s military in autumn 2017, long after most Western countries had banned such sales. The Israeli firms are said to have refused to answer questions about their current sales.

      “David Tal, an Israeli historian who chairs the University of Sussex’s Modern Israel Studies programme, explained the Zionist state’s continued friendship with Myanmar saying: ‘A general trend of Israel’s foreign policy is to give priority to interests over values. Having good relations with Myanmar … I would assume is worth any moral price Israel accrues.’

      “The report traced Israel’s trend of assisting racist regimes to the country’s historical cooperation with apartheid South Africa and recent friendly relations with Viktor Orban’s Hungary and Rodrigo Duterte’s Philippines.

      “As with Israel’s assistance to the White South African government – which installed an apartheid regime to control majority black South Africans – its ties with Myanmar has been a source of controversy and embarrassment. The Israeli government has repeatedly resisted full details of arms sales to Myanmar coming out into the public.”

      Hypocrisy, thy name is Bari Weiss!!

    • genesto on February 25, 2019, 4:59 pm

      Bret Stephens is actually the’ best they got’ when it comes to acting as a mouthpiece for Israel. Like Bari, though, he’s pretty disgusting in his own right .

      Seriously, though, Michelle Alexander is the best they got on the subject. But, after her groundbreaking op-ed piece on the issue a few weeks ago, I rather doubt we will be hearing from her on Israel/Palestine in the NYT anytime soon.

      Hope I’m wrong.

  3. Mooser on February 23, 2019, 2:43 pm

    .” It’s useful and I thought appropriate for this article.”

    Here’s the original article, 2008, still relevant. From the “Jew sans frontieres” blog:

    “How to make the case for Israel and win” by ‘gabriel ash’

  4. Citizen on February 23, 2019, 3:12 pm

    When Joe Rogen did his podcast with Ms. Weiss he had already been schooled by at least two well informed and objective guests on the I-P situation–for some reason he did not employ anything he had previously learned, but simply fawned over Weiss.

    • Citizen on February 23, 2019, 3:30 pm

      Abby Martin and Jimmy Dore.

    • JWalters on February 23, 2019, 8:31 pm

      It’s so obvious. I’m guessing he wants people to notice that. I’m guessing some sort of club over his head. Possibly the most commonly used club is some sort of financial hit. That’s the way they hit members of Congress, according to the Israel lobby insider caught on camera in The Lobby. That’s also the goal of their anti-BDS laws creeping around the state legislatures, and now entering Congress.

      • Citizen on February 24, 2019, 4:02 am

        He does not respond to tweets about it. And has not brought it up in later podcasts.

      • annie on February 24, 2019, 11:49 am

        i’ve wondered numerous times how she ended up on his show. it seems like such an odd pairing. does he have a staff member who reaches out for desirable guests? did her people reach out to him recognizing his high profile among progressive audiences? very curious.

  5. just on February 23, 2019, 5:55 pm

    As if… Weiss really gives a rip about any Muslim, including Uighurs in China where many are incarcerated in detention centers like Holot. How’s about allowing them to find refuge in Israel, Bari? How about Israel’s treatment of asylum seekers in Holot and their subsequent expulsion, etc.? How about treating indigenous Palestinians with respect and the dignity to which they are entitled?

    She’s boring. Methinks she aspires to be a kinder, gentler Caroline Glick… never gonna happen.

    This may be of interest to some:

    “She was also a co-founder of Columbians for Academic Freedom. The group said that professors were intimidating students who expressed pro-Israel sentiments in classroom discussions that the professors disagreed with.[3] Weiss said that she felt intimidated in a class by Joseph Massad.[4][5][3][6]”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_Weiss

    boo- hoo. I guess the truth can be intimidating when one is uncomfortable and unschooled.

    • JWalters on February 23, 2019, 8:36 pm

      Any sensible person would feel intimidated upon entering a debate armed with garbage falsehoods. So Bari should definitely feel intimidated. But if she truly fears the other debater is going to throw her in an oven she is delusional, and not competent to discuss the matter.

      • Citizen on February 24, 2019, 4:04 am

        She actually thinks she’s cute, adorable even.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius on February 24, 2019, 5:32 am

      Just seem from her Wiki entry that her ex-husband was the founder of ‘Toilets for People’.

      Ho hum.

      And that whole Columbia non-story – which was thrown out by the authorities – was, if I recall, the start of the whole special snowflake Zionist students’ feelingz are so hurt by having their views challenged on campus nonsense. I thought that’s what university was supposed to be all about? Challenging your comfortable views? If it were any other group they’d be told to grow up and get with the progamme. But when it’s Zionists, we have to mollycoddle them and pretend this isn’t some obvious set-up.

  6. eljay on February 23, 2019, 8:30 pm

    So much deliberate Zionist dishonesty in just two comments!

    “There’s an obsession on the State of Israel. Like if you were an alien that landed from outer space, you would think that the greatest oppressor in the world is this tiny state that’s the size of New Jersey. These people say nothing generally about the genocide of Uighur Muslims in China. . . It’s an enormous story [and it’s appalling] that you don’t know about it.”

    Imagine if aliens landed from outer space and wondered why the tiny state of Israel that’s the size of New Jersey is so obsessed with making war on Iran – the world’s only Iranian/Persian state, a state that possesses no nuclear weapons, is not at war with anyone (not even Israel) and – quite unlike Israel – neither militarily-occupies nor colonizes any territory outside of its borders.

    “Those who call themselves anti-Zionists usually insist they are not anti-Semites. But I struggle to see what else to call an ideology that seeks to eradicate only one state in the world — the one that happens to be the Jewish one — while empathetically insisting on the rights of self-determination for every other minority.”

    The right of self-determination belongs to all people living in and up to n-generations removed from a geographic region. The religion-based identity of Jewish does not meet that criterion; neither does “every other minority”.

    But if Ms. Weiss is correct then non-Jews in/from “Jewish State” should be allowed to “self-determine” their own state separate from Israel. Is she prepared to support and defend this self-determination? No, of course not: She’s a hateful and immoral Zionist hypocrite.

    • RoHa on February 24, 2019, 1:11 am

      “But I struggle to see what else to call an ideology that seeks to eradicate only one state in the world — the one that happens to be the Jewish one — while empathetically insisting on the rights of self-determination for every other minority.”

      I haven’t seen any anti-Zionist “empathetically insisting on the rights of self-determination for every other minority.” Perhaps there are some who do.

      • Citizen on February 24, 2019, 1:34 pm

        But I struggle to see what else to call an ideology that has always sought to create chaos in all Arab states that do not do as Zionist Israel wishes, and that seeks to eradicate the only Persian state in the world via its superpower proxy USA, while insisting on depriving the self-determination of the native Palestinian people.

  7. JWalters on February 23, 2019, 8:40 pm

    Thank you for this GREAT takedown of garbage Zionist arguments, Bari Weiss version. Very effective.

  8. Kay24 on February 23, 2019, 10:27 pm

    The problems is, when these Israel firsters regurgitate old Hasbara talking points, and makes Israel look the victim, no one challenges them to their bull shit narrative. Bari Weiss can BS her way out of anything when it comes to Israel and it’s crimes, yet no one confronts her with facts and the truth. How she, and the other apologists in the media, can ignore the occupation, land theft, illegal settlements, and the killing of unarmed civilians, while pleading for Israel’s safety, is beyond comprehension. They never mention Israel’s endless crimes, and any discussion about unarmed Palestinians being killed, is always answered by just how much “poor” Israel is defending itself from terror attacks, even if the casualties are young kids who are unarmed and no threat, implying Israel has no choice. Oh that saintly Israel! Weiss is a disgusting person.

    • Citizen on February 24, 2019, 1:36 pm

      Yet she is convinced she is not only very moral and ethical, but also downright cute I imagine she learned that at home.

      • Kay24 on February 24, 2019, 7:40 pm

        Yes, I noticed she uses her baby face to emphasize Israel’s “victimhood”. Bill Maher lets her get away with it, like other Israeli supporters do.

  9. RoHa on February 24, 2019, 1:24 am

    “But Jewish citizens of the US, UK, France, Canada, Argentina, etc. enjoy the very same right to national self-determination as their fellow citizens…

    So Israel actually offers Jews around the world a second right of national self-determination…”

    Nice to see that some of my basic points have been noted.

  10. Boomer on February 24, 2019, 12:07 pm

    She may be clumsy, but her employer buys pixels by the barrel.

    • gamal on February 24, 2019, 1:43 pm

      “but her employer buys pixels by the barrel”

      I see the Guardian has decided to preemptively smear the people of Wavertree, in support of Ellman and Berger, the use of “bourgeois radicals” I thought especially hilarious, it concludes

      “Her words echoed the line that the Labour party, both in Wavertree and nationally, keeps restating, as accusations of antisemitism keep growing. Hatton’s tweet serves as a kind of awareness test. Many Labour supporters in Wavertree, and across the country, insist that it’s about Israel, completely blocking out the fact that it places all British Jews in the moral dock.

      It’s been often said that Corbyn has to find a way of uniting the metropolitan middle class and the disaffected northern working-class Labour voters. In Wavertree, there are signs of an unholy alliance taking shape between those on the wrong end of austerity, who associate Jews with wealth and power, and bourgeois radicals who view Jews through the prism of Palestine.

      Not one person I spoke to would think of themselves as antisemitic, but perhaps it’s the unreflective denial that is enabling antisemitism to thrive in the shade”

      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/23/liverpool-wavertree-labour-constituency-antisemitism-luciana-berger-derek-hatton

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on February 24, 2019, 2:32 pm

        The Guardian is a disgrace. That piece is hidious even by its standards – no wonder they hid it away and didn’t open it to comments.

        I have lived in Liverpool. It is a city full of the most decent people I have ever met, the absolute opposite of bigots or racists. It is a bloody disgrace that they are being slandered because some of them might have been criticical of a mediocre careerist who only got the seat because she was a mate of Tony Blair’s son, and was elected 3 times despite all this ‘antisemitism’.

        “Many Labour supporters in Wavertree, and across the country, insist that it’s about Israel, completely blocking out the fact that it places all British Jews in the moral dock.”

        Sorry, but what the hell is that supposed to mean? We can’t criticise Israel in case a Jewish person feels offended? What nonsense!

        Honestly, I’m sick of this obsession with Jews. You’d swear they were being assaulted on the streets or forced to wear yellow stars, instead of being probably the most prosperous religious minority in Britain. And when that’s combined with the slander of ordinary, decent people, it makes me cross. Very cross.

        And have you noticed that the term ‘racism’ is increasingly being used to refer to the supposed ‘antisemitism crisis’? Luciana Berger looks pretty white to me. As do Margaret Hodge and all the other victims of ‘racism’. Or do I need to go to Specsavers?

      • Boomer on February 24, 2019, 3:47 pm

        As an American, I find some aspects of British politics and culture, including this one, surprisingly confusing. I infer that the Guardian is in some ways analogous to the NY Times.

        Regarding the NY Times, today’s national print edition that I received (not the NYC edition) has a good article by Megan Specia titled “What it means to lack a nationality or country.” (It appeared online a bit earlier.) The story begins with Shamima Begum and other ISIS wives and fighters, but also discusses the issue more generally. Except for Palestinians. No mention of them.

        https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/world/middleeast/isis-shamima-begum-citizenship-stateless.html

      • just on February 24, 2019, 4:52 pm

        Thank you gamal and Maximus Decimus Meridius. You made some very fine points, MDM.

        Now I am cross, too! Who is this agony aunt & highly judgemental, self- styled ‘journalist’ Andrew Anthony, anyway? From the bits I could gather, he’s another one who changed his beliefs after September 11th.

        FYI:

        “The Fall-Out: How a Guilty Liberal Lost His Innocence is a book by Andrew Anthony. It was published in 2007 by Vintage Books.

        Anthony writes: “Over the years, I had absorbed a notion of liberalism that was passive, defeatist, guilt-ridden. Feelings of guilt governed my world view: postcolonial guilt, white guilt, middle-class guilt, British guilt. But if I was guilty, 9/11 shattered my innocence… For while I realized almost straight away that 9/11 would change the world, it would be several more years before I accepted that it had also changed me.”[1]”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fall-Out

        oy vey!

      • gamal on February 24, 2019, 5:42 pm

        “As an American, I find some aspects of British politics and culture, including this one, surprisingly confusing”

        you are not the only one

        “I infer that the Guardian is in some ways analogous to the NY Times”

        oh dear God no, The Times ( The London Times, if you must) is the equivalent of the NYT. The Guardian should be like the American Herald Tribune that it isn’t is frankly unsatisfactory, and I remain Sir quite as confused as you.

        https://ahtribune.com/

      • RoHa on February 24, 2019, 8:26 pm

        “( The London Times, if you must)”

        And you mustn’t.

      • Boomer on February 25, 2019, 7:17 am

        gamal, thanks for your response. I haven’t been to Europe for many years, so my grasp of news sources there (always tenuous) is now quite limited.

        I wonder if you meant to refer to the late, lamented International Herald Tribune, which the Guardian praises here:
        https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/oct/14/international-herald-tribune-new-york-times

        A web search tells me that there is now something called the American Herald Tribune, but I wasn’t previously familiar with it.
        https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/american-herald-tribune/

  11. andrew r on February 24, 2019, 4:37 pm

    Bari Weiss: while empathetically insisting on the rights of self-determination for every other minority.

    This looks like a clumsy bit of self-contradiction. The most nauseating hypocrisy apologists for Zionism tend to display: the Palestinians brought the refugee crisis on themselves for rejecting the UN partition plan and at the same time should’ve accepted they could never return to their homes like those Indians and Pakistanis who fled their respective homes in 1947 — which happened because a partition plan was implemented. It’s possible for someone to stand on two mutually-exclusive moral highgrounds and have no shame.

  12. ahadhaadam on February 24, 2019, 10:53 pm

    The claim of “self determination for Jews” is a silly hasbara shtick that has been thoroughly debunked so many times. However it’s not surprising that Zionists keep repeating this trope and insisting on this non-existent right – this is after all what makes them Zionists.

    The right to self determination is *the right to live free of foreign rule*. Period. There is no right to self determination to blacks, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Mormons or Muslims but rather to people who live under foreign occupation, regardless of their skin color or religious creed. Since Palestinians are deprived of Israeli citizenship, they have the right to self determination. Since “Jews” does not define a group of people living under foreign occupation, they have no such right, let alone the right to achieve what they consider self determination on the expense of others.

    So this claim is not only complete hogwash, but it also inverts the reality, as is typical for Zionists, by claiming a right to self determination to a group of people who have no such right (Jews) while at the same time physically denying it from people who actually have that right, i.e. people who live under foreign occupation (Palestinians).

    • Talkback on February 25, 2019, 9:09 am

      ahadhaadam: “There is no right to self determination to blacks, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Mormons or Muslims but rather to people who live under foreign occupation, regardless of their skin color or religious creed.”

      Not only under foreign occupation. Under any alien domination. This right is a post colonial principle. So know, foreign settlers who immigrate into a country without the consent of its poeople do not have any right to national self determination. They can exercise this right in the country they left.

  13. Jejasalo on February 25, 2019, 11:20 am

    What continues to amaze me is how effective the tired, old propaganda is.

    • Mooser on February 25, 2019, 12:44 pm

      “What continues to amaze me is how effective the tired, old propaganda is.”

      Didn’t think it was going to be this easy, did you?

      • Jejasalo on February 25, 2019, 12:55 pm

        Your comment made me laugh. I’ve been at this for 30 years. If I thought it was supposed to be easy I’d have quit decades ago!

      • Mooser on February 25, 2019, 5:52 pm

        “I’ve been at this for 30 years.”

        I bet you have.

      • James North on February 25, 2019, 7:37 pm

        Mooser: What happened to “Grover?”

    • ahadhaadam on February 26, 2019, 5:36 am

      It is effective when you have virtually exclusive access to mainstream media and the ability to block your detractors from the discourse. This is one of the many privileges of power. You can repeat whatever lies you want and there will be nobody to challenge it. It’s like a court where only the prosecution gets to speak. This is the state of US mainstream media.

      • Jejasalo on February 26, 2019, 12:56 pm

        Yes; you are right. But eventually the truth seeps through. Or at least we hope so. If we give up — they win.

  14. Arby on February 25, 2019, 11:37 am

    There is, unhelpfully, no reply buttons for many comments.

    I don’t know why anyone would compare, even in the negative, The NYT to American Herald Tribune. I only know what I know about the NYT from coverage of its awfulness by progressives throughout assorted alternative media, which is the only way that I want to know what’s in the Times. I don’t have the anaylitical chops, or courage, to delve into the American State’s record of agenda. But I don’t fee that I need to. I don’t need to join ISIS either, in order to know something – enough – about that pile of human trash.

    I quite like AHT, although, out of the blue, they disappeared a comment I had made, in response to another commenter who asked for some info. We couldn’t figure out why. I was even able to comment about that on AHT, telling Robert (other commenter) to visit my blog in order to get my response to his query.

    Progressives are not always what they seem. And gatekeepers are everywhere. In fact, Progressives are dropping like flies – selling their souls. The light is fading fast. There’s a few pin pricks of it on a universe-sized canvas of darkness.

    Also, for Boomer and any who are interested; There’s Off Guardian. The website is a mess (and they are always going to fix it but don’t), but it’s pretty good, most of the time. They exist precisely because The Guardian, which they once read and engaged with, has become utterly awful. They go into pro Camelot mode (saint JFK) from time to time, which I find offputting. And one editor there, Vaska, attacked me for pointing out that the Saker (another ‘progressive’ blogger) has an about and an updated moderation policy that, in so many word, tells pro human rights (in the area of sexual identity) commenters to get lost. But other than that, They are okay.

    “The Ignorance Of Progressives Is Astonishing” :
    https://arrby.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/the-ignorance-of-progressives-is-astonishing/

    “Off Guardian’s Vaska attacks me for pointing out that Saker’s rules for posting include a ban on pro-homosexual ‘ranting’!” :
    https://arrby.wordpress.com/2018/03/20/off-guardians-vaska-attacks-me-for-pointing-out-that-sakers-rules-for-posting-include-anti-homosexual-ranting/

    “Gatekeepers” :
    https://arrby.wordpress.com/2015/02/10/gatekeepers/

  15. RoHa on February 26, 2019, 12:40 am

    “There’s an obsession on the State of Israel. Like if you were an alien that landed from outer space, you would think that the greatest oppressor in the world is this tiny state that’s the size of New Jersey. These people say nothing generally about the genocide of Uighur Muslims in China. ”

    Does the Chinese treatment of the Uighurs justify Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians? Of course not! This is just a deflection. (Fallacy of pointing to another wrong.)

    Weiss wants to draw the conclusion that critics of Israel are anti-Semites. But that is irrelevant to the truth of the criticism. (Fallacy of argumentum ad hominem.)

    Weiss needs logic lessons.

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