My side will win. Why? Because the movement is growing inside Jewish culture to call attention to the destruction of Palestinian lives. And Jewish culture is, like it or not, really important in the American discourse. Note that the Jewish press is on the story. But the mainstream press is afraid!
Lev Leviev is a billionaire/Russian-born/Israeli diamond merchant in New York. He also funds settlements in the West Bank. The other night at the grand opening of his fabulous new store in N.Y., protesters showed up to denounce his support for illegal settlements. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency covered the event and described the protesters as "human rights advocates."
The Forward also covered the protests in a fair manner:
a group of protesters showed up behind the velvet rope that barred
the entrance to the store. The protesters were most vocal in
criticizing Leviev’s involvement in developing the Palestinian
territories. But they also denounced his trade with the Angolan
government, widely regarded as repressive, and his real estate holdings
in New York City, which have come under fire from tenants’ rights
groups.Leviev “is destroying marginal
communities in New York City the same way he’s destroying Palestinian
communities in the Middle East,” said protester Ethan Heitner, who
identified himself as a Jewish member of the group Adalah-NY.A
source close to Leviev said that the protesters were scapegoating the
diamond merchant simply because he is an Israeli citizen. The
controversies went unmentioned at the Chabad event — and they were also
omitted from a lengthy recent story about Leviev in The New York Times
Magazine.
And here is a report from the protest organizers, Adalah New York, Coalition for Justice in the Middle East:
Over 100 well-dressed, well-heeled New Yorkers attending the
invitation-only opening of diamond mogul Lev Leviev’s Madison Avenue
jewelry store this evening appeared stunned and aghast to find their
evening derailed by a noisy protest against Leviev’s construction of
illegal West Bank settlements. Gala attendees set down their champagne
glasses and gathered by windows to view the signs and Palestinian
flags, and hear protesters’ chants.
Did you write your Congresspersons to urge that they support the Annapolis peace discussion?
Did you write your Congresspresons to urge them to explicitly invite Syria to the discussion, so that they will feel honored in coming, rather than insulted?
How about the president?
Our voice matters.
Unless of course you (whoever) is "ANTI" Zionist, rather than anti-expansion.
Thanks for the reminder Richard. Typing the letters now.
And thank you for your input here. It's much appreciated, and the rudeness with which your treated by some here is symptomatic of their underlying flaws.
Somewhere in US law there is an obscure law that says US citizens cannot encourage, much less finance, acts by a foreign country's government that are contrary to official US stated policy regarding that country.
The official position of the US is that the settlements must be dismantled..although we all know Israel has paid no attention to that requirement and the US congress doesn't enforce it. Bush I tried to hold up aid to Israel one year because they didn't comply with that US requirement…but our US Israeli congress raised such hell Bush caved in the end.
I don't know if this is part of the Logan Act or another law…I will have to research to find out..but it is just another example of ignoring our own laws when it comes to Israelis and their lobby….and quit a few other groups as well.
90% of our politicans are soooooo corrupt they will ignore any law that steps on the toes of their money backers.
I haven't found that letters and calls appealing to politicans to consider the human rights of Palestines (or any other people) have made any difference. So now I just write to the individual politicans when they display their favortism for Israel over their duty to the country they are suppose to represent reminding them why I am not voting for or contributing to them or their party. Every time I get a call from from the DNC I tell them why I am no longer giving to the party. And at the same time, every time a politican stands up to the Israel Lobby by stating the obvious like Betty McCollum and Jim Moran did, I call their office, ask for the mailing address to send a re-election donation to and send them a check with a letter saying exactly what they said or did that inspired me to contribute to them.
Supporting the honest ones and punishing the ones who work for Israel (and the party they are in) and betray their office and country
might have some effect if enough people adopt this tactic. But realistically I expect this whole US Israeli abberration to blow up in our faces before anything reverses the Orwellian congressional position that Israel "is" America.
Weiss fancies himself an assimilated Jew. He isn't he is a Jew obsessed Jews.
Real assimilated Jews walk away from their Judaism and never look back. Weiss on the other hand tries to preach to Jews to be like him. The fact that there are Jews and not just Zionists in the world bothers him.
For the record I am anti-settlement and believe that Israel should remove all settlements from the West Bank. They should also hold on to it till a peace accord is signed with a legitimate Palestinian government that can enforce the terms of the agreement with the Jewish State.
Both the Arab State and the Jewish State will have responsibilities under a peace which each side has to maintain.
Reiss wrote….
"For the record I am anti-settlement and believe that Israel should remove all settlements from the West Bank. They should also hold on to it till a peace accord is signed with a legitimate Palestinian government that can enforce the terms of the agreement with the Jewish State."
Good for you, but the problem with that is Israel doesn't want peace, they want the land, the settlements and nay resources Palestine has. That is fact that is glaringly obvious to any objective observer of Israeli actions. So there will never be a peace accord unless it gives Israel every scrap of worth while land and resources Palestine has.
And to reinforce my prior post:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/15/wisrael115.xml
US presses Israel to halt Jewish settlements
By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
Last Updated: 2:47am GMT 15/11/2007
America pressed Israel yesterday to stop developing Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
The move is aimed at persuading Palestinian moderates to attend a US-brokered peace meeting next month in Annapolis, Maryland.
The building of settlements on land captured in the 1967 war is one of the thorniest in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinians fear that Israel will seek to annex the settlements when the borders of the Jewish state are finalised.
While the settling of civilians by an occupying power on occupied land is illegal under international law, Israel has pressed ahead, insisting that the West Bank belongs to the historical land of Israel.
America has often spoken out against the settlements but it rarely backs its words with action.">>>>>>>>>>>
What I think is that some shocking event will occur someday regarding Israel, and some charismatic US public figure will come along and engage the public's attention and emotions on this and Israel will be turned from a US pet into the rouge outlaw country that it is. Maybe instead of a former US President like Carter or foreign policy scholars like W&M it will be a popular and respected movie star..maybe an old one or maybe one that the young crowd adores…but soooner or later the chickens will come home to roost on this.
What a beautiful thing, all these insular, pampered, rich Judeofascist swine confronted with their own greed and hypocrisy. If they know what's good for them, they'll be on the next plane to Israel — on a one-way ticket. They're all for apartheid, right?
whatever you think phil is, it really doesnt mean jack shit to me.
phil is probably an american jew who loves his country and doesnt have any problem identifying which country that is.
so go burn your straw man elsewhere, or have fun watching how the crescendo of anti israeli sentiment grows in america.
To: Reiss on Weiss' "obsessions"
Sir,
your comments about Weiss are inaccurate IMO. Weiss is trying to save the Jewsih community from the peril of dual loyalty. In the next ten years the US is likely to abandon its empire due for monetary reasons…the dollar is collapsing, the US industrial base is being exported to China etc Right now the Zionist media can distract people enough away from the dual loyalty issue–why we are In Iraq, why we allow Israel to spy on us and trade our secrets with China etc Yet those days are coming to and end. And when they do the goyim are gonna be really mad. they are gonna be looking for scapegoats and because their is MUCH merit in blaming Jews for dual loyalty they may face a terrible price.
For the record, Jews are welcome in America–they just have to quit lobbying for a foreign government whose interests differ from the U.S.
John:
When that day comes, scumbags like yourself are going to get their fuckin' heads ripped off and shoved up their asses.
John said……
"And when they do the goyim are gonna be really mad. they are gonna be looking for scapegoats and because their is MUCH merit in blaming Jews for dual loyalty they may face a terrible price.
For the record, Jews are welcome in America–they just have to quit lobbying for a foreign government whose interests differ from the U.S."
John is right. Most people recongize that not all Jews are like the zionist cult, but even non racist people, being the imperfect humans they are, could easily transfer their revenge collectively to the jews because the zionist "leaders" keep not only racking up transgressions against America, but throwing it in our faces in a very public way.
I never paid any attention to the jewish political element until after the ME problems burst onto the scene and wasn't even aware of the "Lobby" or that Jews in this country were so obsessed with Israel, since none that I personally know show any particular attachment to Israel, or that there was such a large organized Israel centric jewish movement here that was using the US for the benefit of their "true homeland". And now despite myself, and constantly reminding myself that some jews are not all jews..I find myself very suspicous of Jews in congress and our government and the media and always wonder and look to see every time they sponsor bills how what they do in US legistation benefits Israel and not us. Too often I find evidence of what I suspect.
And while I mentally keep the some and all difference firmly in my mind and read patriotic jewish writers like Weiss and others I still find myself having a lower and lower opinion of the whole jewish community in our country because it seems the majority of them do believe they are entitled to the "loyalty exception" and that the US should be used for the benefit of Israel and their minority. Thoses who don't actively support this idea but don't
speak out against it becauase of jewish peer pressure make themselves the same part of the problem. The right wing zionist would say I am an anti-semite and just don't know I am…but I reject that because anti-semitism and racism is not in my prior history or makeup. I am suspicous of some jew's motives now simply because there is black and white evidence to support that suspicion.
Jews aren't the only part of the special interest and criminal capitalism crisis in our government that we face and I think the best the Jews can hope for is that when all of it eventually blows, "all of it" really does blow altogether and at once, and not just the Israeli Jews part in the corruption of America.
the pressure builds on condi to not appear anti semitic…
John said……
"And when they do the goyim are gonna be really mad. they are gonna be looking for scapegoats and because their is MUCH merit in blaming Jews for dual loyalty they may face a terrible price.
For the record, Jews are welcome in America–they just have to quit lobbying for a foreign government whose interests differ from the U.S."
John is right. Most people recongize that not all Jews are like the zionist cult, but even non racist people, being the imperfect humans they are, could easily transfer their revenge collectively to the jews because the zionist "leaders" keep not only racking up transgressions against America, but throwing it in our faces in a very public way.
I never paid any attention to the jewish political element until after the ME problems burst onto the scene and wasn't even aware of the "Lobby" or that Jews in this country were so obsessed with Israel, since none that I personally know show any particular attachment to Israel, or that there was such a large organized Israel centric jewish movement here that was using the US for the benefit of their "true homeland". And now despite myself, and constantly reminding myself that some jews are not all jews..I find myself very suspicous of Jews in congress and our government and the media and always wonder and look to see every time they sponsor bills how what they do in US legistation benefits Israel and not us. Too often I find evidence of what I suspect.
And while I mentally keep the some and all difference firmly in my mind and read patriotic jewish writers like Weiss and others I still find myself having a lower and lower opinion of the whole jewish community in our country because it seems the majority of them do believe they are entitled to the "loyalty exception" and that the US should be used for the benefit of Israel and their minority. Thoses who don't actively support this idea but don't
speak out against it becauase of jewish peer pressure make themselves the same part of the problem. The right wing zionist would say I am an anti-semite and just don't know I am…but I reject that because anti-semitism and racism is not in my prior history or makeup. I am suspicous of some jew's motives now simply because there is black and white evidence to support that suspicion.
Jews aren't the only part of the special interest and criminal capitalism crisis in our government that we face and I think the best the Jews can hope for is that when all of it eventually blows, "all of it" really does blow altogether and at once, and not just the Israeli Jews part in the corruption of America.
more pressure to scuttle the peace talks with the palestinians, poor condi.
i will wager that 90+% of those who are jewish in america do not know any part of the story of jewsagainstzionism, their history with the zionist before and during world war II is very revealing. maybe if americas jews would know more about that history they wouldnt be such a bunch of stooges.
the stories of what the zionist did to jews in arab lands to get them to emigrate to israel are also worthwhile knowing….zioterrorism.
i only read the stories i didnt make them up.
the hardiest of the hardy…jewsagainstzionism dot com.
Just a note to Richard Witty.
In case you weren't in on the joke, Richard, the Annapolis peace conference is a stillborn farce.
Sam,
You are right that the majority of Jews don't know the thesis of the Neturai Karta.
And the majority of those that do, regard them as misguided, even those that respect some of their religious principles and sources.
BOTH those that regard the assertion of Israel AS the coming of the messianic age, and those that regard the assertion of Israel as idolatry, are out to lunch.
Israel is a secular entity, a nationalist entity, and merits for or against its existence and practise should be judged solely on that merit.
For those religious Jews that seek a messianic time, the state of Israel is not unlike any state, a material arrangement solely.
With the MAIN difference being that the state will NEVER abuse Jews for being Jews.
It is possible in every other state in the world, thankfully not exercised very much now in the west. That it happened in civil (but often nationalist) Germany was a wake up call.
Witty wrote: "Israel is a secular entity, a nationalist entity…a material arrangement solely…the MAIN difference being that the state will NEVER abuse Jews for being Jews."
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Jews get beaten up there all the time for being insufficiently religious. Rabin took a bullet to the head for being insufficiently Judeofascist.
For a long time, Israel has been, first and foremost, a Judeofascist state. From the Judeofascist perspective, anyone who gets in the way of that enterprise, Jew or gentile, is fair game.
Israel is not a "secular, nationalist entity." Israel is a state that weds religion and right-wing nationalist socialist doctrine. The only way Israel could pass as a secular state is to mis-define Judaism as a race irrespective of religion.
Wake up. Your deluded, sentimental, wishful thinking about Israel is an anachronism. It may have been founded, in part, by earnest Jews, but the cynical Judeofascists quickly took control and have been running it, more or less, ever since. It's just taken awhile for the world to see (or rather admit to itself) their true colors.
"When that day comes, scumbags like yourself are going to get their fuckin' heads ripped off and shoved up their asses.
Posted by: Dogvid the dog loving impersonator"
John and Ed, in fact Dogvid is right. Most of the notion of antisemitic popular uprising is based on pre-nuclear history. A couple of wmd attacks in american cities will be enough to put an end to any antisemitic agitation.
-antisemitism rises
-nuclear attack in America
-muslim scapegoat terrorist coutry "identified"
-Israel obliterates the scapegoat with nukes
-americans still in shock (and awe) thank the israelis.
-antisemitism is declared terrorist activity
-jews are allowed to emigrate from America carrying all their money and goods, free of customs inspection
-Richard Witty turns off the light and closes the dor of the country formerly known as America
-the age of jewish empire in the Middle East begins
Some variation of this will happen if the level of anti-jewish feeling in america (which is monitored, by the way) grows. You are being bolsheviked. I hope you will find a way to avoid this future, but the way in which americans reacted to the 911 event is not reassuring.
The talk by a few here of a "antisemitic popular uprising" is disconnected from reality. The discussion is so fanciful that I can't even imagine that those discussing it here believe it themselves.
Back to the subject of our pusillanimous media: a reader enumerates one week's uncovered events from the Middle East–
"The talk by a few here of a "antisemitic popular uprising" is disconnected from reality."
Matt the "antisemitic" here means "against the designs of the zionist jewish elite." As far as I know (though I know little) that's the only kind of antisemitism that still exists in America. Didn't you know that those opposing israeli policies are considered antisemites?
By the way did you check the posts on Yglesias' blog prior to, say, june 2004? You won't find them anywhere but I assure you that by the time of the "threatening storm" he was planting clouds and thunder and so was Josh Marshall, who made a career out of beating the old drum of racism against Trent Lott for his comments during Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party. What an easy path for those two and the other pro-war "liberals". Today they are quite well in the picture because they reverted their positions after the tragedy was irreversible. Talk about timming, Matt.
To be honest I did like Josh when he was still a graduate student, but I saw him slowly cowering under the pressure of the apparatus, in fact when the moment arrived he took the path opposite to Phil's, and that's why he is doing so well today, but is also why there will be one day when he will wish he was more brave and took the side of the american people.
lets not lose sight of the fact that american politicians are equally to blame for not standing up for "we the people".
it's too easy to focus on the elephant in the room, but of all the parties involved they do seem to have another nations interest in all of this.
why is it so hard for americans to think of america first, afterall, this nation has been the refuge for so many of us from all the corners of the earth.
I think it's called the campaign finance system.
MondoWeiss
Shake any family tree hard enough and a militant ethnic nationalist will fall out. It’s universal and applies to all people and “tribes”. You may be shaking the tree mightily, but I don't know yet.
Richard Witty:
If you are talking about Israel returning to the 1967 borders or something close, then I agree with you. I always felt that the Zionist dream was more Buber and Van Creveld, not Sharansky and Avigdor Lieberman. Did the Israeli character shift as the number of immigrants from Russia increased? I once spoke to a Jewish American (and Southern, I proudly add) woman. I think her ancestry traces through Germany. She had some interesting insights about this change in demographics. Some things better left unsaid!
I hope that I am wrong but I just don’t see any way possible that Israel will return to the ‘67 borders or anything even remotely close. It would result in further fragmentation of Israeli civic life and possibly lead to civil war. At least right now, I am becoming increasingly convinced that Zionism is now predominated by a “messianic character” — one supported in part by a Strangelove alliance with US Rapturists. This trend, in my opinion, increasingly accelerated after the Six Day war. And today religious Zionists are filling the ranks of the IDF. If Olmert even hinted at an agreement wherein Israel would guarantee Muslim control of the Dome of the Rock area, then he may very well go the way of Rabin.
I think I understand what you are saying about the creation of Israel as a secular nation. I too always have believed that the creation of Israel was based on those principles. But now I admittedly have left Uris behind and am reading works from the genre of E. Black and Pappe. So, just to be provocative: I do note that Uris titled his book “Exodus” which is hardly a secular term. Same with the name Israel (which Satmar claims is a forgery by Zionists).
So…if one assumes for a moment that Israel is now predominated by “messianic” character…then I am left with the question, “Is it the right kind of messianic character?” All I can tell you is that I am convinced that the US Rapturists want to see the Dome of the Rock taken out, so that war will rain down on the Jewish people, resulting in world chaos and anti-Semitism during a time that — to borrow from English history– the “saints slept”.
Sidney,
Israel shifted primarily after the 1973 war, in which for the first time since 1948, they experienced the real prospect for defeat and elimination as a state.
The US regarded the 1973 invasions by Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and reluctantly Jordan, to be unilateral, unprovoked, expansionistic.
The support of OPEC of the coordinated Arab League military led to the first OPEC supply reductions, for political ends rather than strategic business purposes, and CHANGED the way Americans and Israelis regarded politics at the time, towards a more conservative approach.
Likud had never been more than a really marginal party (in any of its forms) and did NOT even participate in governmental coalitions. (Israel is a parliamentary system by proportional party electoral. As there has not been a majority party since 1973 – I believe – all governments now are coalitions.)
The arguments as to dual loyalty, are NOT new, and were loudly expressed following the OPEC embargos.
During the late 80's and 90's, there was a strong peace movement in Israel, culminating in the willingness to enter negotiations with Arafat and PLO, a stunning shift as Arafat did directly organize and order multiple terrorist actions (not ambiguous ones), and was basically hated by Israelis with few exceptions.
The second shifts to a conservative approach occurred during the second intifada. (The first was a wake up call, that told Israelis that Palestinians weren't going anywhere and would be their neighbors permanently).
The reason for that shift was that in the heat of a divided election, the second intifada was intentionally and apparently coordinatedly initiated immediately after a large compromise from previous Israeli positions.
That Arafat turned down the proposal was his decision to make, and may or may not have been rational and politically feasible. The violent response to the proposals (before Sharon was elected) was what convinced Israelis to reject compromise.
The rejection was wide, and a great stride backwards, a decade long backslide.
It is also unknowable whether Barak would have won the 2000 election or not, but the second intifada compelled that Likud would win. They miscalculated grossly.
Richard Witty:
Thank you for the information. When I have a little more time, I want to try to study it in depth.
In a different era, I was a big fan of Ehud Barak. I have not kept up with him as much since he has re-emerged on the world scene, except a few comments he has made about the Second Leb. War.
Quick question: suppose you were the Israeli PM and stated publicly that the creation of Israel was based on secular principles. At Annapolis, would you be willing, as part of negotiations, to guarantee Muslim control of the Dome of the Rock area?
An answer of “yes” would seem to support the claim that Israel is a secular nation. And answer of “no” may — I stress “may” — indicate a more religious or messianic character. I see no military value for that tract of land; from what I can tell at this point, Martin Van Creveld agrees.
Again, I don't know the answers. Only searching. But everywhere I look for a peaceful solution, I only see more violence and war.
Richard Witty wrote: "It is also unknowable whether Barak would have won the 2000 election or not, but the second intifada compelled that Likud would win. They miscalculated grossly."
To be fair, Sharon most likely went to the Temple Mount (Al-Aksa) to be deliberately provocative. You can see how his move was interpreted by the Orthodox Union here:
http://www.ou.org/public/statements/2000/betty30.htm
Or course, it played into the desire of the Palestinian right as well. It was a tinderbox at that time. It has long been established that the Israeli right and the Palestinian right tend to feed off each other to the detriment of everyone else. This isn't that different that how Al Qaeda empowers the Neoconservatives and vice versa (expressed in many places, including the old BBC Documentary "The Power of Nightmares".)
"Dual loyalty is not new…"
To Witty:
The fact that the issue is not new does not detract one iota from its saliency. Or the danger that it poses to US security or those advocate it. Long term dual loyalty will doom the American Jewry.
But it has not happened yet, you compacently say. But the times are a changing..In the 70's when there were just three networks etc it was easier to control information. Gosh I think of how many pro-zionist Holocaust documentaries that I have seen. If we had had the internet the the Zionist propaganda that has driven the debate could have been offset by a more balanced analysis of what really happened in history and the moral dubiousness of Zionism.
In 1928 Hitler received 2.8% of the vote., By 1933 he was in power. Societies' slide can be as rapid as an avalanche. And the US is not in good shape morally or economically. Some example:
Social trust is declining according to Putnam, the Harvard professor who wrote "bowling alone."
Hollywood's promotion of sensuality is not helping. And the middle class is disappearing.
Traditional conservatives like Buchanan are fortunate to have any voice at all. But they will hardly be well-positioned to restrain the mob when it goes looking for scapegoats. You Zionists are cannot see what is going on beyond the pro Zionist MSM.
Again, Witty…for your own sake abandon this dance of death with dual loyalty. Or else have the integrity to register as a foreign agent. People appreciate tranparency in their dealings with others and to know all the parties conflicts of interest.
"Dual loyalty is not new…"
To Witty:
The fact that the issue is not new does not detract one iota from its saliency. Or the danger that it poses to US security or those advocate it. Long term dual loyalty will doom the American Jewry.
But it has not happened yet, you compacently say. But the times are a changing..In the 70's when there were just three networks etc it was easier to control information. Gosh I think of how many pro-zionist Holocaust documentaries that I have seen. If we had had the internet the the Zionist propaganda that has driven the debate could have been offset by a more balanced analysis of what really happened in history and the moral dubiousness of Zionism.
In 1928 Hitler received 2.8% of the vote., By 1933 he was in power. Societies' slide can be as rapid as an avalanche. And the US is not in good shape morally or economically. Some example:
Social trust is declining according to Putnam, the Harvard professor who wrote "bowling alone."
Hollywood's promotion of sensuality is not helping. And the middle class is disappearing.
Traditional conservatives like Buchanan are fortunate to have any voice at all. But they will hardly be well-positioned to restrain the mob when it goes looking for scapegoats. You Zionists are cannot see what is going on beyond the pro Zionist MSM.
Again, Witty…for your own sake abandon this dance of death with dual loyalty. Or else have the integrity to register as a foreign agent. People appreciate tranparency in their dealings with others and to know all the parties conflicts of interest.
A note for jews and gentiles alike and particulary for jews like witty.
There is too much myth in this country, created by the jewish leaders and swallowed by the jewish public about Israel and the founding of Israel and what the Arabs did to the jews ..that everyone should first get their facts straight.
Anyone who wants to know "exactly" what went on should get themselves to the British National archeives where they can read real time and on the ground official reports and documents and intelligence reports and first hand accounts and news articles at the time on jewish terrorism and arab violence in Palestine during the Israeli settlement. Then you should go to the presidential libaries starting with Truman and insert a search for "Israel"
and read all the State Dep and agency memos's and private presidential memos and conversations regarding Israel and US Jews and organizations at that time involved with Israel.
That is what I did long ago because what I was hearing and seeing in the US jewish story was so one sided it didn't even make sense. The jewish tales that "everything" they did was right and pure and they were "always the "victims" and "everything" the Palestines did was violent and wrong defied common sense. Because "Never" in the history of mankind has any human or group "Always" been right and everyone else "Always" been wrong. But that's how the jewish leadership tells it and the average jews latched onto that story. It is absolutely impossible for any one or group of people to have been absolutely "innocent" and a "victim" and hated by "everyone" since the begining of time for "absolutely no reason"….but that is the jewish-zionist story. The two most often offered reason by jews are people hate them for being Christ killers…but that doesn't cover the Muslim attitude toward them….the other is that jews were hated because they were rich…but the fact is the Jews as a whole class have not been among the richest in the universe or among the ruling class of any country at any time. The truth is that they have been a few jews with money like the few gentiles with money enough to whisper in ruling political ears. So somewhere there is another side to the story.
You can also buy all the historical records and data in book form which is what I did because it is easier to read that way.
A note for jews and gentiles alike and particulary for jews like witty.
There is too much myth in this country, created by the jewish leaders and swallowed by the jewish public about Israel and the founding of Israel and what the Arabs did to the jews ..that everyone should first get their facts straight.
Anyone who wants to know "exactly" what went on should get themselves to the British National archeives where they can read real time and on the ground official reports and documents and intelligence reports and first hand accounts and news articles at the time on jewish terrorism and arab violence in Palestine during the Israeli settlement. Then you should go to the presidential libaries starting with Truman and insert a search for "Israel"
and read all the State Dep and agency memos's and private presidential memos and conversations regarding Israel and US Jews and organizations at that time involved with Israel.
That is what I did long ago because what I was hearing and seeing in the US jewish story was so one sided it didn't even make sense. The jewish tales that "everything" they did was right and pure and they were "always the "victims" and "everything" the Palestines did was violent and wrong defied common sense. Because "Never" in the history of mankind has any human or group "Always" been right and everyone else "Always" been wrong. But that's how the jewish leadership tells it and the average jews latched onto that story. It is absolutely impossible for any one or group of people to have been absolutely "innocent" and a "victim" and hated by "everyone" since the begining of time for "absolutely no reason"….but that is the jewish-zionist story. The two most often offered reason by jews are people hate them for being Christ killers…but that doesn't cover the Muslim attitude toward them….the other is that jews were hated because they were rich…but the fact is the Jews as a whole class have not been among the richest in the universe or among the ruling class of any country at any time. The truth is that they have been a few jews with money like the few gentiles with money enough to whisper in ruling political ears. So somewhere there is another side to the story.
You can also buy all the historical records and data in book form which is what I did because it is easier to read that way.
Cal wrote: "There is too much myth in this country, created by the jewish leaders and swallowed by the jewish public about Israel and the founding of Israel and what the Arabs did to the jews."
Every community has its myths, and nations are usually built upon heroic narratives that only have mild connections to the underlying messy reality. This is common to many groups. Every group finds it incredibly easy to see the faults and wrongs of others, while being blind to their own misdeeds.
So what I am saying is that you are right, but also wrong to overly single out Jews and Israel. I would feel more comfortable, and I think you would get more traction, if you were to make a more inclusive argument that doesn't sound like Jews or Israel are unique in this respect, the situation is unique in its particulars but it is generalization in its overall arc and board characteristics. If you can writing emphasizing both levels of analysis, the specific and the generalizable, you will be much more persuasive.
>Every community has its myths, and nations are usually built upon heroic narratives that only have mild connections to the underlying messy reality. This is common to many groups. Every group finds it incredibly easy to see the faults and wrongs of others, while being blind to their own misdeeds.<
THAT MAY BE SO, but none are more full of self righteous bull doodoo than the people of the book who used the holocaust and a holy god and its holy land to sell that tall tale to the gentile nations of the world who are willing to suck it up like a vaccumm cleaner sucking up crap.
what make israels mythology so repulsive is that it is told with such arrogance and flat out bald lies, and the complicity that goes along with it by the players who, under pressure, succumb and go along to get along.
bottom line, hiding behind the holocaust as israel does to condone their actions is repulsive at best, ADD TO THAT THE PILFERING OF HOLOCAUST MONEYS that was supposed to go to holocaust survivors and it makes it DISRESPECTUL, repugnant and despicable.
look my jewish friends, if you look at this issue and study its many sided repugnancies my guess is that you wouldnt be so supportive of israel either.
palestinian have been ethnically cleansed and ghettoised in their own land by a people who had just suffered a similar fate in europe, and zionist israel lovers justify it because of the holocaust, there is NO justification for a crime commited against an innocent people.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=203
History
The Claims Conference was set up in 1951 at the initiative of the Government of Israel to represent Diaspora Jews in negotiations for reparations with Germany. The management of the organization is composed of representatives of 23 Jewish organizations, which were selected by Nahum Goldman, then president of the World Jewish Congress.
In the beginning of the nineties, the role of Israel in the Claims Conference diminished further and American Jews assumed control of the Claims Conference. At the end of that decade, the Claims Conference became one of the richest Jewish bodies in the world. Today, the organization, based in New York, has in it is accounts, more than 1.7 billion dollars. A large portion of this amount was received after the unification of Germany.
The German Government recognized the Claims Conference as the heir to Jewish property in East Germany and it was awarded 11,000 claims for restitution of property. Even today, the Claims Conference continues to claim restitution of Jewish property and it is estimated that in the next few years, the Claims Conference will receive another 400 million dollars.
So where do a large proportion of these funds go – and why are survivors who are destitute, sick and living in dire circumstances, not able to benefit from them?
Salaries in millions
IRS reports show that there are 100 employees of the Claims Conference who enjoy salaries of close to 6.9 million dollars. Add to this the lavish spending of money which could otherwise be used to save Holocaust survivors from becoming destitute: The heads of the Claims Conference enjoy many benefits, including first class travel around the world, deluxe hotel accommodation and dining at fancy restaurants.
The extent of management expenses of the organization are tens of millions of dollars each year. The World Jewish Congress funds expenses relating to restitution of money to Holocaust survivors.
"At Annapolis, would you be willing, as part of negotiations, to guarantee Muslim control of the Dome of the Rock area?"
Its a real tough question. The land is special to both peoples, whether you call it historical, religious or what.
Its particularly tough as the Al Aqsa Mosque is adjacent to and overlooks the Western Wall of the old temple.
Its also difficult as the walled-in city is not really divisible. (The old city of Jerusalem, is enclosed within a wall, if you've never been there.)
East Jerusalem though should be Palestine, and should be its capital if they choose.
I thought it would be an interesting post-conflict situation with the Palestinian parliament walking distance from the Israeli. Ministers from each could visit for lunch.
Matt,
On the Sharon walk. It certainly was provocative, and intimately insulting. It asserted in action "This land will never be yours. Its ours. You're borrowing it and solely by our permission." It was a similar message to the Jews that lived in dhimmi status in much of the Arab world prior.
Samuel,
IRS records?
Where did you come by them?
To Matt
I stuck strictly to the Israel-Jewish topic just because that is what this site discussion is.
To include other examples in history and world wide would make a post so long it would turn into a book.
One thing too that I decided long ago is to not get into the "comparsion" game when discussing topics like this.
The "Johnny did it too Mommie" thing as a way to excuse any particular group.
I think it's a given that the world knows the crime of Isr-Pal isn't unique to the Jews and Arabs.
Everything should be examined seperately on it's own facts… whether it's what the American settlers did to the Indians or Israelis did to the Palestines and so on.
Otherwise the discussion or heart of the matter get polluted by the .."same as"…"not as bad as"…"just like" ..rationales.
Then the basic right and wrong definitions
and moral questions of all of them get lost in comparison game.
And excuse the double post…don't know how I keep doing that.
Richard Witty:
Thank you for the response to the question re: guarantee of Muslim sovereignty over the Dome of the Rock. Yes…it’s a tough question to answer. Gorenberg is right, in my view. It is where all issues are condensed to one small plot of land. But I think the answer to that question perhaps shows the intent and character of Zionism in this day and age. Your response evidences a desire for peace, in my view, but it may suggest that Zionism is at some kind of crossroads, but I don’t know for sure. Do you think AIPAC would agree with your response?
I have been to Jerusalem and the occupied territories. I enjoyed the experience thoroughly, although I certainly was pulled in different directions, intellectually and otherwise. Jerusalem may have been where the Uris worldview truly began to fall apart irreparably. (Of course, David Wurmser and the “Wurmser option” took it much further and made me realize a true conflict of interest had emerged, as my loyalty is with the USM always).
In the occupied territories, an Arab in Bethlehem kept pointing to the settlements on the surrounding hilltops and saying with great anger, “American, American!” I kept saying to myself, “Is this what George Washington would have wanted?” If I remember correctly a lot of the streets around the King David Hotel are named after US Presidents, hence the reason I had George Washington on my mind during this time.
I posted this on the NY Observer website:
I am a proud American Jew who was offended by Philip Weiss' simple minded article about Norman Mailer.
I served in the US army did you Philip?
For some reason I doubt it. Like all those conservative flag waving jingoist like your idol Patrick Buchanan and his ilk you were probably hiding under you bad when it came time to register for the draft.
Yes, Philip one can be both a Jew and an American and thank God I live in a country in which I don't have to choose.
You and Buchanan would like to force people like me to choose between being Jewish and being an American. If you guys ever came to power I and millions like me would leave the country in a heart beat.
Even Norman Mailer had he been forced to choose would have declined to live here.
Think about that, Philip, next time you shoot off you mouth and attack Jews.
I posted this on the NY Observer website:
I am a proud American Jew who was offended by Philip Weiss' simple minded article about Norman Mailer.
I served in the US army did you Philip?
For some reason I doubt it. Like all those conservative flag waving jingoist like your idol Patrick Buchanan and his ilk you were probably hiding under you bad when it came time to register for the draft.
Yes, Philip one can be both a Jew and an American and thank God I live in a country in which I don't have to choose.
You and Buchanan would like to force people like me to choose between being Jewish and being an American. If you guys ever came to power I and millions like me would leave the country in a heart beat.
Even Norman Mailer had he been forced to choose would have declined to live here.
Think about that, Philip, next time you shoot off you mouth and attack Jews.
scribe10 wrote:
"Think about that, Philip, next time you shoot off you mouth and attack Jews."
I think you miss Philip's point. He is a jew and says he is a jew and identifies with jews.
He also says that if you are an american jew than your "national" identity and loyalty should be American not Israeli. At least I think that is what he is saying.
Obviously he sees some jews who are confused on that point or think there is a country called Isrmerica instead of two seperate and different countries called Israel and America.
Samuel Burke gave one half of an interesting article referring to Finkelstein's website. The article concerned was originally published by Michael Grayevsky and Oron Meiri under the title "Where did the Shoah Money go". It appeared on Ynetnews.com on 12/10/06.
I am reproducing here part of the other half which provides some interesting details about Mr.Singer, the chairman of the Claims Conference. Singer was forced out of the WJC in March this year but remains, as far as I know, in his position at the Claims Conference.
"So who is the President of the Claims Conference, Israel Singer, and why do so many people object to the manner in which he operates?
Singer, 62, has been engaged for many years in public activities and served until 2001 as Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, but stepped down from his role after allegations of his involvement in financial irregularities, even though there were no criminal findings. Even though he was forced to step down, Singer did not retire to his home but was appointed chairman of the WJC after it was made clear that he would not deal with financial affairs. He also serves as head of another organization, WJRO, whose main goal is to identify money of Holocaust victims in dormant bank accounts
For years, Singer was one of the central personalities leading the campaign for restitution of Jewish property, including money found in dormant bank accounts in Switzerland. But, in January of this year, a grave report was released by the New York State Attorney General, Eliot Spitzer (who was elected this month as the next Governor of New York).
The report reveals apparent financial irregularities amounting to millions of dollars, administrative deficiencies and circular transfers of 1.2 million dollars form the accounts of the WJC in New York to a bank account in Geneva. From there, the money found its way to a private bank account in England in the name of Advocate Zvi Barak, in his capacity as a trustee, and from there, it arrived in an account in the name of a private company called Solar, in which Advocate Barak had a shareholding. Upon opening of the investigation, the money was returned. Barak, incidentally, is the business partner of Opher Hirschson, the son of the Finance Minister.
The investigation began after allegations were made by the Legal Adviser of the WJC in Geneva, Advocate Daniel Lack. Singer claimed that the money was given in 2001 by the Jewish Agency, which finances part of the budget of the WJC, for his pension and relied on a letter given to him by the former chairman of the Jewish Agency, Avraham Burg.
But, in the investigation, it became apparent that the man who replaced Burg as chairman of the Jewish Agency and serves today as Israel's ambassador to Washington, Salai Meridor, contradicted his predecessor and said that the money was not intended for pensions.
Spitzer revealed the use of money by Singer for personal purposes. In his report, he describes, for example, how Singer managed to accumulate more than 450,000 points on his credit cards. Singer held several credit cards, including the exclusive black card of American Express, "Centurion", which is restricted to only the rich and famous. This magnificent card gives its holder unlimited credit and the cost of holding such a card is thousands of dollars a year. In total, according to Spitzer's assessment, Singer withdrew in cash approximately USD 671,000 to disburse on overseas trips (see WJC response below).
For example, in 2003, he submitted to the WJC, expense accounts amounting to USD 431,129 and in 2004, in the amount of USD 261,294. A breakdown of Singer's movements show that he flew to almost the entire world, sometimes together with his wife. For example, for two tickets to Germany, he paid (at the expense of the WJC, of course) USD 24,000. On the same day in September 2003, he paid an additional USD 1,000 for another flight. Six days later, his flight to Europe cost USD 12,000 and a week later, he paid EL AL USD 8,500. This was all paid by the WJC.
The total of all Singer's flights in 2003 was approximately USD 232,000 and the cost of his hotel accommodation amounted to approximately USD 173,000. In 2004, he really cut back and the cost of his flights and accommodation came to approximately USD 200,000.
Singer lives in New York, but this did not inhibit him from staying at deluxe hotels in the Big Apple, on which he spent in 2003 approximately USD 60,000 of WJC funds. In that year, he also stayed in deluxe hotels in Paris, Berlin, Rome, Vienna, Geneva, Rio de Janeiro, Budapest, London – as well as in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. In addition, he withdrew more than USD 134,000 in cash from the WJC account in New York and claimed before the Attorney General that he used the money for travel purposes.
Singer still in charge
Following the initial revelations, the Jewish Community in Geneva, demanded a comprehensive review of the handling of finances. The WJC management appointed an international accounting firm and a draft of their report was submitted to the Attorney General. Bottom line: A substantial amount of withdrawals and deposits in the WJC accounts in Geneva are not supported by any documentation.
But for "Singer, business carries on as usual. He still heads the WJC, despite the finding that he violated his fiduciary obligations to the WJC. And he still serves as President of the Claims Conference.
Why?
The chairman of the Claims Conference, Advocate Julius Berman, says that "even though Singer is president of the organization, he has no access to finances. He raises the money but does not decide how to spend it."
Professor Alfred Donath, President of the Swiss Jewish Community, believes that following the Spitzer Report, "it is not appropriate for Singer to hold any public office".
Stephen Herbits, Secretary General of the WJC, who signed on behalf of the WJC, without admitting, the report of the New York Attorney General, said in a meeting with Yedioth Ahronot: "I would not have signed the report if I did not agree with every sentence in it. The report refers to failed management at the WJC." But, according to him, there was nothing criminal in the behavior of Israel Singer and he did not take any money.
Singer, in a telephone conversation, rejected the allegations and referred us to the WJC spokesman for comment: "I work on a voluntary basis for the survivors. The story with the report of Spitzer is over and everything is fine." "
Assisted in investigation: Niv Alexander
nice job scribe10, if you served in the u.s military, its the least you could have done when your country called you so you only did what was requested of you, if you would have been a protester of conscience then more power to you, but you chose not to object, objectors are usually brave men and women who make a moral stand, something which requires a conscience and some balls.
the claim of patriotism they say is the last refuge of the scoundrel, and let me add that it is very telling that you cite pat buchanan, a man whom the jews in america hate, thus they label him antisemitic.
so youve basically chosen to set up the strawman of pat buchanan as an anti semite (invalid in the minds of most americans) and you set yourself up as an american patriot for having served, and not having the conscience of that generations peacenkis who sensed the illegality of that war, as we came to know only years later.
keep up the good work phil, maybe the israel first crowd will start to look at israel as just another country with the the same rights and responsibilites as the other nations, and not accept their actions unconditionally.
>IRS records?
Where did you come by them?<
richard my posting came from normans website which i had been rumaging through lately and discovered this new angle of israels mythology being propped up on holocaustianity as norman calls it, all the while they are jipping the elderly survivors of the retribution moneys.
i wonder how long before the german people rise up against the abuses being perpetrated against them…hell it was the regime that commited the crimes, could you imagine if the u.s were to lose a war in the middle east and the winning side made the american people pay for rebuilding the entire middle east into perpetuity.
blowback is already rearing its ugly head in germany also…oppression causes the oppressed to eventually react.
"blowback is already rearing its ugly head in germany also…oppression causes the oppressed to eventually react."
You're just giving Richard a hard-on, Samuel.
honestly, i have never met a more arrogant people than zionist jews. they defend the indefensible ad nauseam.
richard have you ever read any talmud?
lets just say that if an american club had written in its bylaws what is written in the talmud, that club would be picketed and written about by all the press, even the jewish editorialist if they didnt know it was the talmud they were writing on.
the school of hillel has some juicy pronouncements.