An astonishing comment to the New York Times. I republish it in full because it is so much better than anything I can say, because it is reflective of American opinion/expertise post-Iraq, and because it puts to utter shame our Congress and the Jewish moral philosopher's scales of justness by which he renders the obvious slaughter in Gaza justifiable.
JDS, who are you? Please come forward! Your country needs you. The world needs you! JDS:
I do know something of military matters that are relevant to the
situation now in Gaza.
I am dismayed by the rhetoric from US politicians and pundits to the
effect that "if the US were under rocket attack from Mexico or Canada,
we would respond like the Israelis". This a gross insult to US
servicemen; I can assure you that we would NOT respond like the
Israelis. In fact, US armed forces and adjunct civilians are under
attack constantly in Iraq and Afghanistan by people who are much better
armed, much better trained and far deadlier than Hamas (I'll ignore for
now that the politicians seem to be oblivious to this fact). Israel has
indeed taken a small number of casualties from Hamas rocket fire (about
20 killed since 2001), but we have taken thousands of casualties in
Iraq and Afghanistan, including many civilian personnel. Hundreds of
American casualties have occurred due to indirect fire, often from
mortars. This is particularly true in or near the Green Zone in
Baghdad. This fire often originates from densely populated urban areas.
Americans
do not, I repeat DO NOT, respond to that fire indiscriminately. When I
say "indiscriminately", I mean that even if we can precisely identify
the source of the fire (which can be very difficult), we do not respond
if we know we will cause civilian casualties. We always evaluate the
threat to civilians before responding, and in an urban area the threat
to civilians is extremely high. If US servicemen violate those rules of
engagement and harm civilians, I assure you we do our best to
investigate — and mete out punishment if warranted. There are
differing opinions on the conflict in Iraq, but I am proud of the
conduct of our servicemen there.
With that in mind, I find the
conduct of the Israeli army in Gaza to be brutal and dishonorable, and
it is insulting that they and others claim that the US military would
behave in the same way. I know the Israelis are operating under
difficult circumstances, but their claim that they follow similar rules
of engagement rings hollow; I see little evidence for this claim given
the huge number of civilian casualties they have caused from indirect
fire.
In particular, I am stunned at the Israeli explanation for
the 30+ civilians killed at the UN school. The Israelis say they were
responding to mortar fire from the school. Mortars are insidious
because their high trajectory and lack of primary flash make it very
difficult to trace the source of the fire; you have to have a spotter
locate the crew. The Israelis claim that they traced the source of the
fire precisely to the school; if so, they must have directly spotted
the crew. Thus it is inconceivable that the Israelis did not know that
the target was a crowded UN school, yet they chose to fire on the
school anyhow. I say without hesitation that this is a criminal act. If
the Israelis had said, "sorry, it was an accident", that could indicate
a targeting problem, confusion, or inferior training. But to openly
admit that they responded reflexively to the Hamas fire without
consideration for the inevitable civilian casualties is beyond the
pale. The Israelis blame Hamas for firing from the school (although UN
personnel on the ground dispute this), but choosing to fire directly at
civilians is far worse; it is tantamount to murder. US servicemen do
not behave that way in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we face much deadlier
adversaries (Hamas mortar crews are apparently not very effective: I
believe that all but one of the total Israeli combat fatalities have
been from friendly fire). In the rare and unfortunate cases where US
personnel have willingly targeted civilians, they have been
court-martialed and punished.
The Israeli approach in Gaza
strikes me as uncontrolled and vengeful. My objective analysis is that
it has little tactical effectiveness; my opinion is that its main goal
is to whip the entire Gaza population into submission. This is
disturbingly similar to the Israelis' conduct in Lebanon in 2006, so I
feel obliged to say that the Israeli military displays a concerted
pattern of disregard for civilian lives. I am not a politician, but in
my opinion the US should take some sort of political action in this
regard. If we continue to formally condone Israel's dishonorable and
brutal military conduct in Gaza, I fear there will eventually be dire
consequences for our country.
— JDS, North Carolina
Israel Murdering Captured Palestinian Fighters?
Dr. Barghouthi: “Israel is executing civilians in Gaza, committing war crimes”
Saed Bannoura – IMEMC
Saturday January 10, 2009
Palestinian Legislator, Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, secretary-general of the Palestinian National Initiative, stated in a press conference on Saturday at the Watan Media Center in Ramallah that Israel continues its crimes in Gaza for the fifteenth day, and is committing war crimes by shelling civilian homes and killing children, women and elderly.
Dr. Barghouthi added that the large number of civilian casualties proves that Israel’s claims of targeting the fighters are false and outrageous.
He demanded all statistics and cases be documented in preparation for an international criminal investigation, and he also demanded the formation of an international committee which would be in charge of prosecuting Israeli officials responsible for war crimes.
The Palestinian Legislator also said that Israel is not only targeting civilians, but is also targeting medical personnel, as 13 medics and physicians were killed by the Israeli Army during the ongoing offensive.
He added that the Israeli Army has shelled hospitals, schools and mosques, which has increased the number of civilian casualties.
Dr. Barghouthi further said that Israel’s statements that the fighters the Israeli Army is kidnapping in Gaza are illegitimate are very serious claims which are considered an approval to kill them after they are captured.
Commenting on Jordan’s decision to withdraw its ambassador to Israel, Dr. Barghouthi said that this is a positive step that should be followed by other Arab and Foreign countries.
He slammed the Pentagon’s decision to transfer weapons to Israel, and considered this decision as an active American participation in the war crimes carried out by the Israeli Army against the Palestinian people. "It is a blow to the upcoming Obama Administration which is preparing to move into the White House", Dr. Barghouthi added.
Qaddoura Fares, head of the Palestinian Prisoners Society, said that Israel’s kidnapping of civilians in Gaza and the media blackout on the issue is very serious, as it gives the Israeli Army a free hand to assassinate kidnapped residents.
Fares added that the army is not providing any information about the number of kidnapped residents or their whereabouts "Which gives the army the opportunity to execute them, throw their bodies in the streets, and claim that they were killed in during clashes".
The Society demanded the Red Cross to perform its duties in the Gaza Strip and to act in order to attain information on the abducting of residents.
Doctor Moawiya Hassanen, of the Palestinian Ministry of Health, reported Saturday that 804 Palestinians, including 230 children, 92 women, and 92 elderly have been killed, and more than 3,300 were wounded; 400 seriously.
I looked in the letters section of today's NYT and don't see this letter. Has anyone located the link?
From Sky News –
————
In Edinburgh, where thousands more gathered, demonstrators threw shoes at the US Consulate.
Actress Lauren Booth, who took part in the London demonstration, criticised her brother-in-law Tony Blair, saying that his suggestions for a ceasefire in Gaza would condemn Palestinians "to a slow agonising death".
Cherie Blair's half-sister said: "Tony Blair's only comment regarding the ceasefire has been to say that it can only take place after the tunnels in Gaza are destroyed.
"What he is suggesting means that after the massacre people will have no access to food, kerosene and medicines that came through those tunnels. That is not a ceasefire, that is a slow agonising death."
Another group of protesters occupied an Israeli cosmetics shop in central London.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090110/tuk-cop-knocked-out-at-gaza-protest-45dbed5.html
link to Marine comment–
link to community.nytimes.com
I looked in the letters section of today's NYT and don't see this letter. Has anyone located the link?
http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2009/01/08/opinion/08kristof.html?permid=141#comment141
What a bunch of crap. The only difference is that the US army would miss and blow up a hospital instead of a school.
By now we all know the story of "the extended Samouni family", herded into a building that the Israelis later shelled, killing 30 and leaving the wounded to die. The NYT headline? "Days of Agony in a Cross-Fire".
link to nytimes.com
/>
A crossfire.
Major Leibovich, you can take the rest of the week off.
I like to see the animals die.
I don't mean to be cynical, but come on. Over a million Iraqis have perished in USreal's invasion of Iraq. If that's the result of being as careful as this U.S. serviceman claims the military are, then I'd urge them to be more reckless – perhaps recklessness would save some Iraqi lives. As much as I'd like to spread this article around as a further example of Israeli brutality, I simply cannot. It rings hollow to me, given the facts on the ground in Iraq.
All that being said, I do believe that the Israeli military is much more brutal than anything we've come to know in the "civilized" world. It's easy to discern simply by watching videos of their words and actions. I imagine it's a combination of the "chosen people" syndrome, along with all the Israeli propaganda the IDF soldiers are fed from such a young age. But I don't need to hold up as an example an American soldier telling me how careful our forces allegedly are in order to show the ruthlessness of the Israelis. With over a million Iraqi dead, it's not a wise way to go.
********************************************
This war, perhaps more than its predecessors, is exposing the true deep veins of Israeli society. Racism and hatred are rearing their heads, as is the impulse for revenge and the thirst for blood. The "inclination of the commander" in the Israel Defense Forces is now "to kill as many as possible," as the military correspondents on television describe it. And even if the reference is to Hamas fighters, this inclination is still chilling.- by Gideon Levy (Haaretz)
But, but, but….our little buddy! They never do anything wrong. The most moral army in the world!
a great essay but it sounds like JDS is surprised and shocked by Israel's brutality and dishonesty. he's probably just starting to see the ugly truth for the first time so i guess Gaza may be his epiphany. let's hope this tragedy leads to millions of epiphanies and a turning point for militaristic, zionist fascism. all of us who know the truth have a duty to spread the word and help others understand.
ZIONISM REVEALED
the following passage from Noam Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle" (1983?) is revealing:
______________________________________________________________
The Road to Armageddon 447
[...]
An unidentified settler in a Moshav–a well-established farmer, educated, of western origin, apparently a person of some distinction who speaks with a sense of authority–takes a rather different stand.* In his view, Israel should be "a mad state," so that people "will understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal," quite capable of "burning the oil fields" or "opening World War III just like that," with nuclear weapons if necessary. Then "they will act carefully around us so as not to anger the wounded animal." Essentially, Richard Nixon's "madman theory." The Lebanon war was fine, but didn't go far enough ("it's a pity we didn't wipe that wasps nest completely off the ground," referring to Ain el-Hilweh; "we should have done it with our own delicate hands," referring to Sabra-Shatila, instead of leaving it to the Phalange–"can you call 500 Arabs a massacre"?). "We shall open another similar war, kill and destroy more and more, until they will have had enough." One great achievement of the Lebanon war was that it aroused anti-Jewish passions throughout the world, so that now "they hate all those nice Zhids" (an anti-Semitic slur) who write books and play music, all those now often derided in Israel as "beautiful souls." He is pleased with the designation "Judeo-Nazi" used by Professor Yeshayahu Leibovitz in a despairing indictment of what he fears Israel is becoming. This man's goal is "to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel, to burn them, to make us hated by all, to make the ground unstable beneath the feet of the Jews in the Diaspora so that they shall be forced to rush here crying." He wants to imitate the Australians who exterminated the natives of Tasmania, or Truman who destroyed hundreds of thousands with two bombs. If instead of writing books, Jews had come to Palestine and "killed six million Arabs, or one million," then they would now be a people of 25 million, "from the Suez canal to the oil fields." It was a mistake that should not be made again. Afterwards, there will be time for culture and civilization. (5)
If things continue on their present course, within the constraints that are at least induced, if not imposed, by "support" from the United States of the sort tendered in recent years, there is reason to expect that these will sooner or later become the authentic voices of Israel. Note that contrary to many oversimplified accounts, these are not the voices of Sephardic slum-dwellers from the Arab countries, but of educated people of western orientation and origin.
______________________________
* This man's views are taken quite seriously by 0z and many others. See, for example, Boaz Evron, "The Nightmares of C" (as he is identified in Oz's interview), Davar, Feb. 4, 1983, a detailed point-by-point refutation of his arguments, which are by no means dismissed as idiosyncratic.
*****************************************
Prodigy – Firestarter Lyrics
I’m the trouble starter, punkin’ instigator
I’m the fear addicted, danger illustrated
I’m a firestarter, twisted firestarter
You’re the firestarter, twisted firestarter
I’m a firestarter, twisted firestarter
I’m the bitch you hated, filth infatuated – yeah
I’m the pain you tasted, well intoxicated
I’m a firestarter, twisted firestarter
You’re the firestarter, twisted firestarter
I’m the self inflicted, mind detonator – yeah
I’m the one infected, twisted animator
I’m a firestarter, twisted firestarter
You’re the firestarter, twisted firestarter
I’m a firestarter, twisted firestarter
SOURCE – link to stlyrics.com
Thanks for the link BLG!
It looks like Phil has fixed the link now.
Suzanne Baroud responds to 'JDS' –
————
Ironically, it was in Palestine, 20 years ago, that I concluded that there is no God. For how could a God, who claims to love all and treat all with impartiality, allow such horrors like those in Palestine to happen?
This unbelief grew stronger with each curfew, with each strike that mourned the death of yet one more martyr, with a decapitation induced by gunfire in the main square on a sunny Ramallah afternoon so many years ago. But it was cemented the day I had to tell one of my fifth grade students that his brother had just been taken away by the Israeli army. His expression, his body going limp, the shuddering of his shoulders as he wept with his classmate … that’s what finally did it.
As we watch the footage of Israel’s onslaught, I hear myself, whispering as I see one more martyred child, “Run to the angels … run.” After so many years, this living nightmare is fostering a burning desire to believe once again in the afterlife.
Shattered concrete, random arms and legs, broken glass, tossed together in a bloody hodge-podge. But, in my mind, I see them whole, their little bodies swiftly being swept up into Paradise and I call out to them, “Run!”
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=29685
Re: Dan Kelly
My interpretation of JDS is that he is referring to American military behavior under rules of engagement that they follow in situations similar to that which IDF forces are now committing atrocities. I see no reason to doubt his story, with the caveat that his experience is probably not representative of all units at all times during the conflict. Recall just how very long the war in Iraq has gone on, and how many units, each with it's own 'culture', have cycled through. My impression is that there has been a substantial tightening of fire discipline in the last several years. I believe that we invaded with very loose rules of engagement which were appropriate for combating expected Baathist unconventional warfare. This threat never materialized, and it took quite some time for more appropriate rules of engagement to be adopted for the far more complex threat which did materialize, in no small part due to the utter failure of political leadership to acknowledge that we were fighting an insurgency, and that a completely different approach from our traditional 'conventional' war-fighting was required. I urge readers who have fought in Iraq or Afghanistan to share their thoughts on these matters with us. Israeli actions are going come back to haunt our country, your input to help the rest of us understand them will be appreciated.
One can characterize war as an attempt to control a relaxation of normal moral and legal restraints on violent behavior. There is a 'sweet-spot' to be found: you want enough willingness to kill and destroy to win, and no more. The responsibility for calibration in both the American and Israeli militaries rests entirely in the hands of civilian leadership. I believe that problems we have seen in Iraq, especially Abu Ghraib, are the direct result of a complete abdication of responsibility by early Bush administration officials, and note that these were almost entirely neocons. This correlation is not an accident. They proffered a 'do what you want, there are no rules' mentality, both in their neglect to lead their subordinates, and in their own behavior. Failures in our leadership, at least in this regard, have been substantially repaired by Secretary Gates. I believe that we didn't intend to cause civilian casualties in the numbers that we have, and that there is no persistent culture of disregard for the lives of innocents in the United States military.
The Israelis, on the other hand, have 41 years of experience with occupation and counter-insurgency operations in Gaza. They knew exactly what kind of battlefield to expect, and it is highly likely that the civilian casualties that they inflict are the result of a deliberate policy promulgated by their civilian leadership, i.e., Ms. Livni, Mr. Barak and their subordinates. There have been no surprises for the Israelis inside Gaza, only outside, where the rest of the world is shining an unexpected light on their standard operating procedures. I find it hard to believe that Israeli leaders did not succeed in calibrating the level of concern shown by the IDF for Arab civilian casualties to EXACTLY the level that they wanted.
Surprises INSIDE the West Bank, like the deaths of 13 soldiers in an ambush in one courtyard, were what led to the decision to clear the center of the refugee camp in Jenin by armored bulldozer followed by tank, rather than door-to-door police work by soldiers.
The initial accounts of ground combat seem to indicate a combined arms approach rather than the infantry-heavy "two steps forward one step back" as seen in Lebanon. Although Hamas may be more lightly armed, the enclosed areas of Gaza provide deadlier kill zones than the relatively open approaches to Lebanese villages guarded by Hezbollah guerillas. Most of the videos from Lebanon '06 show a lot of soldiers running around in open ground under rifle fire, and returning fire against guerillas in houses. Gaza is characterized by pre-positioned charges in booby-trapped houses and sudden ambush, so the IDF may be using a more tank-heavy approach, or alternatively a pure infantry house-to-house and tunnel war with dogs and pistols as the US did in Vietnam. Certainly at least one bomb-sniffing dog has fallen in combat.
kosher: "I like to see the animals die."
Spoken like a true Zionist.
Eurosabra, absolutely none of that is a 'surprise'. What did you think was going to happen? Hamas would come out in the open and challenge you to an old-west style shootout?
It seems that most of the civilian casualties are from aerial bombing, or artillery, aimed at rocketeers or rocket storage sites. The big explosions are also possibly secondaries caused by the ignition of rockets stored on-site. So the real killer of civilians is not infantry or counter-insurgency warfare, but the explosion of Grads, secondary explosions from rocket pads and the destruction of stockpiling tunnels, and just plain misidentification of targets, none of which would be happening if Hamas's "popular resistance" capabilities had remained at the level handled by Ariel Sharon's policing of the Strip in 1970. In short, the "volume" of the bombing was raised by the mechanics of destroying stockpiles from the air, with the armed infantry presence of Hamas guarding those stockpiles making a "ring the doorbell with a bomb -sniffing dog" approach used in some of the quieter corners of the West Bank irrelevant.
Again, you complain that Israel accidentally kills civilians by using means appropriate to the task of fighting guerillas in urban terrain, which pretty much makes it clear that you are anti-Israel more than anything else, since your conditions for an appropriate response would make any response ineffective. There is no way to use police methods of force against non-uniformed combatants with heavy weapons–rockets, anti-tank, mortars, IEDs–in a built-up urban area inhabited by civilians.
So, yes, this is radically different from 1970, when Fatah in Gaza was subdued by ordinary police work, when map-making and stake-outs were the vital skills. Hamas has raised the level of violence so effectively that Israel has to destroy a bit of Gaza to save Sderot. The mass violence is a sign of Palestinian militants' success in making Gaza a more dangerous environment for the IDF, in making southern Israel as a whole a target and a danger zone, in stockpiling weapons that make a much larger "bang" when the IDF destroys them. Hamas should be happier, it is giving Gazans exactly what it wanted for them and for itself all along–Jihad fi sbil Allah.
You seem to have a problem expressing yourself without blaspheming, euro. This is normally a sign of cumulative stress, and suggests that your judgment is impaired by fatigue, possibly of an emotional nature. I have experienced this myself, and it is comparable to a losing gammbler who keeps on betting out of desperation.
JEWISH army dog fell in combat in Gaza….
I can hear the drama of it in the Eurosabra post… tragic.
Euro, the Grads causing so much damage, as you know, were made and paid for by average Americans. They are top-of-the-line in
technical ability to bomb surgically. They are not being used that way only, as to strikes on HAMAS superstructure and admin offices.
This is a violation of the purely defensive motive for their use, which is a precondition to being furnished (free of charge of course, except to current and generations of Americans, who will get both the taxes and backlash, as we've received the 9/11 one. You should go to Israel as its obvious where you stand–please take SOG (Bill Pearlman) and Richard Witty with you. God bless and keep Zionism–far away from me.
Milkman,
If you don't even know that Grads are a Russian/Chinese/Iranian-manufactured weapon used by Hezbollah, Hamas and a wide range of Arab armies that have standardized on USSR Cold War-era equipment, why should I take anything else you say seriously?
And I'm a US citizen. Bear in mind that the Albanians were recruiting soldiers in NYC in 1998, and in the mid-90s a Croatian foreign minister born in Silicon Valley got USAF to provide air support for his army. Or is it just a question of the ONE Diaspora ethnic nationalism you don't like?
Eva,
His sacrifice meant that Palestinian civilians were spared, because a dog was sent instead of a grenade or a missile. "A blessing on the honey and the sting", to paraphrase an old Israeli song. Those who know will understand.
Euro, you are an Israeli citizen who happens to be living in the USA at the moment. Grads are not the equal of the larger quantity of tools made, bought and paid for by American goys, and shipped to Israel–that they are based on American technology given to enemy nations by Jews is just more icing on the cake. That point is larger than your little one, you know, the one atop your head? Further, Croats and Albanians never deserved USA help either.
Well maybe I don't know and I don't understand. I have limited amount of emotions to spare for a dog when children are being killed and maimed by their hundreds, and while I'm a dog lover, faced with dead dog and dead child, my heart would bleed for a child….
Is your concern for the dog in the midst of this carnage anything to do with the fact that these are "only Arab" children?
I take it you do not envisage any other way of dealing with Gazans that using missiles, granades or dogs. Or at least not seriously enough to mention it.
Grads are pretty much NOT an American-inspired product, unless you want to go as far back as Goddard, in which case ALL defense aerospace is American. They are a product of Russian WW2 technology and its development in the Cold War era, which proves you don't know your @$$ from a (rocket crater?) hole in the ground.
Eva,
Israel tried getting out of Gaza, with the only condition for open borders being that the rockets stop. The rockets continued. Nothing works, but at least the dog didn't kill anyone.
Reading arguments like those put forth by Euro are numbing for their sanctimonious, self-righteous, and relentless childishness.
It's like listening to a friend who repeats the details of a decades-old wrong every time he gets upset about something. The friend has learned nothing. The pain of years ago is as ripe today as it was. There is no consciousness or awareness that the friend had anything to do with his own plight. There's no sense of responsibility. There is no intelligence dragged in to put the event in perspective beyond the understanding the friend had when he was four years old, when it happened. It's locked in time. It’s its own music box, the same tune, the same dance.
After years of kindness listening to this friend, one day it becomes too much. The friendship is one-way; we have to listen as concerned adults, the friend is entitled to stay the same way. The friendship isn't working because of it and now we just dont care. We really just dont care anymore.
This is what's happened to me and my non-Jewish friends listening to these arguments we've heard for 60 years about Israel, Gaza, the ME, zionism, antisemitism, etcetera, etcetera from a relentless pro-Israel point-of-view. The arguments, the reasoning, haven’t changed in 60 years. It’s been 60 years of the same braying, the same dangers, the same challenges, the same fears. The same lack of change. The same trauma bell.
But one thing has happened in the interim that makes this music box not an assumed record of history but a melodramatic manipulation, a concoction.
It’s called the Internet. The ability to research the facts as they existed at the time. Or now. In any foreign language.
I read hard-nosed and emotional Israel supporters all over the net spouting the same stuff they spouted decades ago about why Israel has to do what it’s doing now, and I just shake my head. Can they think we’re all so profoundly stupid that we can’t read?
I’ve run out of energy. I’ve run out of kindness. I’ve run out of caring.
I’ve come to same conclusion I would if the Vatican were using F-16s and laser-guided missiles in 2009 to bomb Naples. I’ve come to same conclusion I did when I first discovered the Catholic Church ran the Inquisition, and tortured people who didn’t follow its edicts. I left it.
There are a number of videos and films on youtube etc where one can clearly see the hate the IDF demonstrate towards the Palestinians. And there are aslo films showing how the IDF behaves when there are western camera crews around -and what happens when think the cameras aren't rolling.
So for Eurosabra to suggest one simply being anti-Israel for confirming that Israel does massacre Palestinian civilians is ridiculous. There is mountains of evidence.
Mountains. I remember a documentary where the IDF were using somebody's house (after kicking the occupants out – or locking them in another room, I can't remember which) in Gaza during an operation – and when they left they actually shit on the floor and than proceeded to smear that shit all over the walls and on the kitchen cabinets etc. You have to really be severely demented to do something like that.
There is a culture of hate and murder in the IDF towards Arab peoples. Of that there can no doubt at all.
MRW,
You must be really sick of the Palestinian victim mentality, then. 60 years of "The Jews didn't let us kill enough of them, they took our land!" While their "Arab brothers" let them rot in concentration whoops refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan. The residency permit renewed every six months in Egypt, for 40 years.
Somehow you don't have a problem with that. How quaint.
Just keep living of poor goy Americans Eurosabra–stay consistent with the big plan long in use, based on Christian guilt, even if its not deserved, what exactly U like about it, eventually the goy always
calls U to account. Your like calls this "anti-semitism"–as if it sprang deus ex machina out of the irrational head of Medusa.
Eurosabra,
If you unlocked the back of your right hand from your forehead long enough to google for facts, you would read
BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) – The Arab world yesterday for the first time collectively offered Israel recognition, security and "normal relations" in exchange for a full withdrawal from Arab lands held since 1967 and a "just solution" for Palestinian refugees.
and
Faction's spokesman at Palestinian parliament voices pragmatic, surprising declarations during Ramallah conference; 'we, Hamas, are committed to calm up to this moment,' he says
Ali Waked
Published: 05.11.06, 00:19 / Israel News
Former World Bank director James Wolfensohn had investors and a plan to create a peaceful commercially viable Gaza in 2005, and the Israelis imposed a lockout, denied them their funds, and imposing restrictions on utilities and fuel/food.
You dont have a leg to stand on, Eurosabra. Your arguments are tediously stupid, trite, and factually inaccurate.
Ah, yes, the famous Saudi plan. Return of all refugees. Sure.
Sorry that no Arab war plan or peace plan has ever actually allowed Israel's destruction. Oslo MIGHT have worked. The Saudi plan was a nice, safe occasion for puff pieces in favor of America's favorite absolutist Arab monarchy, nothing more.