Is there a sea change in American opinion re Israel/Palestine? Debate

Phil Weiss:

Many of us have been excited by the accounts by pseudonymous F.E. Felson on this site, describing the power of the Israel lobby in New Jersey local politics and Congress. Felson is an accomplished journalist who woke up to this issue slowly, and on his own. That excites me. I regard Felson as an  American Everyman. I wrote to him recently: You weren't steeped in this, you
came to it by your own lights, now you're appalled. I am hopeful that
others will make this journey. How do we
achieve that?

Felson:
Actually, my own experience makes me something of a pessimist.
Yeah, I eventually woke up about this stuff, but what I hoped people
would realize in my essay was how typical I was before I started doing
my homework — how easy, effortless and NATURAL it is to be only
vaguely aware of the Middle East and to filter out news related to it.

 I grew up with culturally liberal parents (well, at least my mother) in
a culturally liberal town with excellent public schools; I went to a
reputable university; I was politically knowledgeable (on domestic
politics); I talked about current events and politics with my friends;
I have covered politics as a journalist. And through all of this, nothing
ever intruded on my indifference to the Middle East.
Some of the commenters on my essay were appalled (and angry)
when I described this, especially because of my occupation. I get why
they would be, but they're missing the point: I finally addressed my
ignorance, but how many more like me are still out there?

This is where we part company, I think — I don't see any
transformation or sea-change going on the U.S. or in the media. I see
little things here and there — the NYT allows Khalidi a (brief) op-ed,
60 Minutes runs a terrific segment on the settlements — but I think
they've always been there. But now you and I are looking for them. But
I bet the NYT allowed a Khalidi-like op-ed during the '82 Lebanon war,
too, and I think 60 Minutes has run similar pieces before (just as
they've done PR for the IDF).
My pessimism is influenced by something I
noticed covering politics: When a low-profile candidate lands a story
on page A7 of a newspaper, his/her campaign always gets excited — it's
a coup, people are taking notice, we're on the move! But they're the
only ones who noticed. It's page A7! It's a newspaper! The electorate
is indifferent to politics; no average voter is reading the page A7
story. To shake up mass opinion, the news has to be big, loud and
persistent. I don't see any momentum in that direction for the
Palestinian cause in the U.S.
Weiss rejoinder. Here's my hopeful chant:
Something's changed. I just
feel it. You're a fairminded Everyman. There are more American Everymen
now engaged by this. A few anyway. (Steve Walt and Duncan Kennedy being
two examples) I didn't follow Lebanon 82 but I followed Lebanon 06 and my theory of
history is It doesn't stay in one place. You cant do the same stupid
thing twice. Iraq showed Americans you dont win occupations. That
understanding played some role in 06/08 elections. Jewish identity
changes are significant. In Lebanon '82 Begin said, We're going to
Hitler's bunker (Arafat in Beirut). They still say that stuff, but it's 26
years later and my mom's generation might buy it but not my nephew.
Felson: I hear you, and I am tempted to feel the same way — I'd certainly like
to. I just don't see people putting the pieces together. To me, the
biggest thing that stuck out about the politics of Iraq was this: In
the summer of '08, when 70 percent of the country was convinced the war
was a mistake and never should have been waged, the same polls showed
that voters believed that McCain would handle Iraq better than Obama.
It was a perfect example of how disengaged from news, information and
history mass opinion is. The volume of news coverage had satisfied just
about everyone that Iraq was dumb. But why? They didn't understand. And
there was McCain, Mr. War Hero and Maverick — God, wouldn't he be
perfect to clean up that mess? I imagine the numbers shifted as the
campaign progressed, and the economy ended up being the big issue in
the end, but I think that's an instructive example — the public had
been listening to John McCain for 10 years and they still didn't
understand anything about what he was saying (or doing in the Senate).
I think that applies to the Israel-Palestine situation. People get that
some serious shit just went down in Gaza and that civilians paid a
price. But I don't think it's going to prompt them to put the pieces
together any more than they did with Iraq and McCain.
Posted in Beyondoweiss, Israel/Palestine, US Politics

{ 49 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. Scott says:

    Not sure who is more right on this. On Phil's side, I would say the number of politically engaged people on the pro-peace, pro Pal side has quintupled since the 1980's. At elite universities, the change is ten-fold or more.
    On the other hand, there is a lot of inertia, indifference, as FEF says. But: America is involved with the area as never before. Threat of terrorism here, troops, money. . . It will become a bigger, more contended issue, it has to. Walt and Mearsheimer's book a much bigger deal than when George Ball wrote a (tamer and less elaborated) version of the same thing, thirty years ago. Plus, demographically, the country changing. FEF's friends, Indian and Egyptian–they're here now. American internal discourse much more globalized. It's still a 90-10 fight, but it used to be 99-1. Soon it will be 70-30. Then it will flip (maybe.)
    I just had lunch with someone who used to do PR for South Africa. He lived through the flipping part–it happened very quickly.

  2. Eva Smagacz says:

    Well,

    It took 20 years for anti-apartheid movement to gather steam to the point that my neighbours would routinely scan the shopping in a supermarket for it's country of origin.

    I think apartheid will fire imagination of university students, and they will learn the rest looking for arguments against the adults. We must be there making that material accessible to a simple google search.

    I trust Carter's instincts and Finkelstein's knowledge of young minds. Anti – Apartheid week is spreading slowly through the universities entwined with green party politics and vegan diets. I have seen people who started unable to understand 9/11 or war or global warming, or those opposing vivisection all coming round into taking position on apartheid and learning about Nakba.

    If nothing else we need to be there spreading facts and countering b**s**t, and, if necessary wear labels of "Anti-Semites" and "self-hating Jews", "Holocaust deniers" along Walt and Mearsheimer.

  3. chris berel says:

    In 60 years, the American public still holds fast for Israel. The number of suicide bombing in Iraq counter any claim the Palestinians have of any reason other then the desire to kill Jews.

    Compund that with the willy-nilly launch of missles towards Jewish kindergartens and you have the perfect palestinian recipe of how to be condemned in 10 easy lessons.

    Flip? You'll have to walk on your hands for years, not that anyone can tell the difference with you, before anyone thinks there could be a flip in 100 years. Unless israel acts likes the Palestinians and advocate genocide.

  4. Ed says:

    The only Americans besides the Jewish Zionists who are fanatically pro-Israel are the Christian Zionist air heads, and to a slightly lesser extent, Judeophile liberal air heads.

    The vast majority of Americans are either indifferent to Israel, or at best, have mixed emotions about Israel, just as they have mixed emotions about organized Jewry.

    Once more Americans fully understand that we never would have been attacked on 9/11 but for our entanglement with Israel; that we never would have gotten into the Iraq war but for intrigue perpetrated by the Corporatist/Zionist alliance; and perhaps most importantly, that economically and geopolitically we can no longer afford to have Zionist hatchet men running amok on our dime; — then Americans will drop Israel like a bad habit.

    To a certain extent, American coarseness actually helps the anti-Zionist cause, in that, beyond the military-industrial-oil Corporatist complex, it’s primarily Jewish/Christian Zionist and liberal Judeophile sentimentality that keeps us entangled with Israel. After a few more years of economic drag (which largely can be laid at the feet of corrupt Zionists and their partners) Americans will have had enough, and simply wash their hands of the entire pain in the ass known as Israel.

  5. MM says:

    Bush was a perfect fall-guy for the ill-fated invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    There was never any real desire, backed by any real action, to stabilize Iraq and create a sovereign democracy.

    But the custodians of the airwaves, a smorgasbord of Zionist clowns and useful stenographers, mostly under the guise of some notion of American "humanitarian" interventionism, corroborated nearly all the empty statements of dignified intentions by Administration officials and neocons.

    The media basically convinced the American people that the aims of the invasion were indeed so noble.

    And, so the story goes, Bush and Rummy were just incompetent. Right.

    If you ever wanted proof that George Bush Jr. isn't as stupid as his face suggests, note how, despite his legendary insecurity and ego, he never publicly disabuses the indignation of those who rail that MISSION ACCOMPLISHED on the aircraft carrier was inappropriate and a mistake.

    It's the ONE mistake he admitted to. The only one! That alone should tell you something.

    "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" was no misstatement. They did exactly what they wanted to do, up to and including the unleashing of white phosphorus on children and armed sectarian rivalries on the population-at-large.

    They accomplished chaos like a bunch of wild bulls in a Pottery Barn, except Colin Powell's rule is nothing but talk. In reality, chaos creates impunity, chaos justifies American military presence indefinitely, and chaos means big contracts. Just ask Efraim E. Diveroli–you can visit his MySpace page.

    But along came the internet, constantly replenished font of independent perspectives, and it rinsed the interventionism of its superficial debris revealing something more cynical and devious. Interventionist thinking at heart is just another way to market empire.

    And that's where Zionism comes into the story for newcomers like me. Zionism is the leading 'just war' brand. The consecration of the Holocaust makes it unassailable.

    Zionism extends across the aisles of Congress, asserting an inviolable right to commit the United States to war for land, resources, and religion in the Middle East, marketed as nothing less than Good vs. Evil.

    Of course the history of United States involvement in Zionism is so deep and so one-sided that, for now, there can be no withdrawal, of the type that Michael Scheuer and others advocate, nor can there likely be any real balancing of the influence exerted in Zionism's favor against any and all resistance.

    What there can be is a movement to rebrand Zionism. Instead of playing into some eternal moral dichotomy, it can be revealed as less-than-ethical and utterly anachronistic. Instead of symbolizing justified aggression, Zionism can mean domination, victimization, and retaliation.

    When Zionism is discredited, military hegemony will not just disappear–but its underpinnings will have been exposed. Its ideological coating will be cracked.

    Then the sea might change.

  6. Ed says:

    Scott: "American internal discourse much more globalized. It's still a 90-10 fight, but it used to be 99-1. Soon it will be 70-30. Then it will flip"

    chris berel: "Flip? You'll have to walk on your hands for years, not that anyone can tell the difference with you, before anyone thinks there could be a flip in 100 years."

    Then why, chris berel, are the Zionists today sending hasbara propaganda agents like yourself out in droves to infest American sites like this? It's because they're scared to death that American public opinion is shifting under their feet, and that the gravy train is coming to an end.

    And really, its probably for the best. I mean, aren't you ashamed to still be on the American tit after all these decades? Or are you parasitic by nature, and thus incapable of shame for being a perpetual welfare sponge?

  7. Glenn Condell says:

    'To shake up mass opinion, the news has to be big, loud and persistent'

    There is only one person who could take this from page 7 to page 1 in an instant, and keep it there, but he has shown absolutely no inclination to do so.

    Though I think if say Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen and Bruce Springsteen were to issue a joint statement condemning Israel's behaviour and American support of it, the sea would at least think about changing, and Change Man might have to speak up too.

    'I don't see any momentum in that direction for the Palestinian cause in the U.S.'

    Yes but much of the rest of the world boils with it, and no country is an island, not any more. One word is missing in the comparisons between 82 and now – the internet. It used to be easy for America to keep its fingers in its ears; less so now.

    'In 60 years, the American public still holds fast for Israel.'

    Your knuckles are getting whiter and there's a few beads of sweat on your brow Chris.

  8. Citizen says:

    My take is somewhere in there with FEF, Scott, and Eva. Other factors
    that point towards some hope is the USA's horrible economy, which won't go away anytime soon and may tilt towards more American Everymen looking closer at where our tax dollars go, and, as well,
    there are more and more alternate media, especially the internet, which circumvents the usual MSM filters to keep us ignorant as it has done for 60 years.

    A third factor is as the USA gets less white, the new demographics
    hold less white guilt. Latinos and blacks are much less conflicted about the propriety of starting up a fair and balanced approach
    to the non-white parts of the world, including the Middle East.

  9. chris berel says:

    But Ed, as far as I know, they are not sending me. What I do see are a bunch of desperate supporters of Islamic Fascism scurrying about trying to firm up a position that doesn't hold water.

    I recall speaking with a director of one of those stupid "end the support" organizations about using the aparthied slogan when they knew it didn't fit. her reply? "Because nothing else has worled".

    Sad, sad, sad.

    The rest of your little speech was just as sad and tiresome. Try something new, nobody believes your whine.

  10. MRW. says:

    Ed hit the nail on the head: The only Americans besides the Jewish Zionists who are fanatically pro-Israel are the Christian Zionist air heads

    We cannot take on the Israel behemoth. But we can take on our own Christian Zionists. Once Israel loses THIS support in the USA, they're done.

    Menachem Begin specifically seduced the Evangelical movement in the 70s to advance his worldview. He talked to whomever was the head honcho then, Falwell?, before talking to Reagan. He did it by using the bridge of anti-homosexualism to show that the Jews (whom Falwell was no particular fan of; neutral) and Evangelicals came from the same pot/past.

    The really interesting story in this is how Falwell and the Dispensationalists came to use the Scofield Reference Bible in the 1960s. This Bible was rewritten in 1906 to include all the parts about Israel that the Rapture guys now believe. None of it is in the King James version. (You can verify this all online if you have days to spare.)

    Scofield's Bible is like an annotation to the regular Bible, but increasingly taken to be the real Bible. It does things like say 'this passage really means this'. So the annotations promote the idea that Christians must fight for the land of Israel, which did not exist until 1948, but was planned after Herzl.

    So who funded Scofiled? Untermyer of NYC and European financial concerns. Scofield was jailed int eh late 1800s for stealing his mother-in-law's dough. Upon his release he went to Texas, and became a preacher. He got an offer to spend four years in Switzerland, arranged by Untermyer, to write his Scofield Bible.

    I wont go on, but the point that Ed raises is the key.

    You cannot change a system from within. Arguing about Israel etc aint gonna cut it. You have to intervene from without. The falsity of what the Christian Zios have adopted is what needs to be dismantled.

  11. MRW. says:

    If any of you want to hear about the Scofield Bible from the POV of a deeply religious (Christian) site that was started by a bunch of previous Christian Zionists, go here:
    link to whtt.org

    It's homemade, so it takes about 30 minutes. It was created for fellow "Christ Followers." This group uses their own savings and retirement money to show up at John Hagee's Christians United for Israel (CUFI) 'Nights for Israel' around the country to protest quietly.

  12. Ed says:

    chris berel: "What I do see are a bunch of desperate supporters of Islamic Fascism scurrying about trying to firm up a position that doesn't hold water."

    This is why Jewish Zionists are so dangerous to peace — their political extremism polarizes debate and forces everyone into one of two camps: the Zionist camp or the "Islamic Fascism" camp. And once anyone steps into the Zionist camp, they have to drink ALL of kool aid; after all, according to them, we're in an epic, existential clash of civilizations, so there can really be no half measures. It's all or nothing. It's WWIII or bust. You're with us or against us.

    Meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to tamp down conflict instead of heightening it.

    And this is why the Zionists will lose — because they are insane, greedy and "all or nothing" warmongering fanatics, and the rest of world can increasingly see that.

    But you go right ahead, chris. Just keep on digging…

  13. MRW. says:

    And…Felson: This is something you can write about that wont get you into hot water.

  14. BLG says:

    A sign of desperation against regular people on the internet, finding out the narrative of "Israeli victim" is flawed.

  15. syvanen says:

    Phil and the reporter are talking about two different audiences. The reporter is talking about changes in mass opinion and he is correct that there are not any discernible changes. Phil is talking about changes in circles of power and elite opinion. To the extent that I can access those circles, there seems to be some positive news. MJ Rosenberg who does have access, is also optimistic. Mostly I can hope that they are right.

    Chris, you just gave us an outright lie. Your anecdote about the director of peace group indirectly acknowledging that the apartheid model is not valid is a fabrication. Two problems here. I have been involved in numerous antiwar organizations over the last 20 years — in none is there an identified "director" — this title goes to those organizations that can afford a professional staff. The other is the word 'apartheid' is universally (at least by those who work in PI peace groups here in the US) accepted as the most applicable term to describe what is going on in the West Bank.

    You just lie. If you think this is incorrect, then please give us the name of the organization to which you refer.

  16. LeaNder says:

    one of your better commentaries, Ed, the problem lies here: (which largely can be laid at the feet of corrupt Zionists and their partners)

  17. MRW. says:

    BLG

    They've discovered that they can't control Twitter because you can be 'unfollow'd. So they've gone to Facebook, where comments can remain, and people can be targeted in their real lives. The Israel ambassador out of NYC tried his best in a two-hour session a few weeks ago to corral Twitter. They couldn't do it. It was abysmal. Twitters were laughing at them.

  18. Jim Haygood says:

    'Iraq showed Americans you don't win occupations.' –Phil W.

    Yep. And so the Great Brown Hope of the liberal Democrats is 'surging' 30,000 troops into the Afghan occupation because?

    Because last summer he told 'Jewish leaders' that there are 30,000 to 50,000 incorrigible terrorists out there who need to be killed.

    Plus, Afghanistan borders Iran on the east, just as Iraq borders Iran on the west … keeping Iran in a two-front American vise. Fearmongering about Iran has been the centerpiece of AIPAC lobbying for most of this decade.

    Zionism is not only apartheid, it's warmongering. Zionism should be as socially unacceptable as necrophilia or cannibalism. It's a ghastly perversion, based on institutionalized violence.

  19. Gene says:

    There has been change. About two years ago, I almost got booted out of DKos for comments critical of Israel. A couple of my comments were hidden by 'cyberthugs', not for what I said but for the links they contained. Now I can write any comment I wish criticising Israel & there's no problem. Also, today I found this piece of news. I would say that that's as mainstream as one could get. In terms of public awareness, I mean.

  20. Ed says:

    LeaNder: “Ed, the problem lies here: (which largely can be laid at the feet of corrupt Zionists and their partners)”

    I’m not trying to scapegoat Jews for the economic meltdown, if that’s what you’re inferring, LeaNder. But let’s face it: there were and are a tremendous number of Jews (most of them Zionists) in the loop that was responsible for the housing bubble, from the directors of The Fed who engineered the interest rates to the Wall Street banksters who kept the money flowing with lax oversight to guys like Barney Frank who was buggering a Fannie Mae executive even as he was insisting there were absolutely no problems with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac lending programs.

    Sure, there were thousands of gentiles who played a role, including Bush who apparently wanted to inflate the bubble in order to pay for the Iraq war. (No word on whether he joined Barney and his “partner” in a ménage à trois to accomplish this). But this is why I said “the Zionists and their partners.” Let’s call them the Zio-bugger boys from now on.

  21. syvanen says:

    Gene, you a right about the changes that are taking place in the progressive blogs. A few years back, most of them avoided Israel like a plague and as Kos said, there was no political gain to be found there. This has changed. I think the only place that has completely avoided the topic is Eschaton, all of the others have at least touched on the subject and all have been quite critical.

    It should be possible to test this postulate empirically if you are good at automatically retrieving archived data.

  22. Thomas Hardy says:

    Gene: Thanks for the article on Codepink's trip to Gaza via Egpt, to try to collect information Mitchell was forbidden to do on his trip by America's Great Brown Hope. Everything helps; I keep trying to make a dent in my own extended whitebread family–they didn't realize
    Gaza was the Superbowl deciding their future.

  23. Sarah says:

    I think you nailed our resident German boy toy, Ed. Or is he a she, a good shiksa?

  24. BLG says:

    MRW.

    The Hasbara types are finding out that, with even a small amount of curiosity, its hard to promote the propaganda of an "Israeli victim" for any set of circumstances.

    Thankfully, Phil is doing a tremensous service to the entire Jewish community by demonstrating that Jews aren't all thinking in lockstep on a pro-Hasbara platform. Phil is doing a great service in dispelling that key component of anti-semitism. More Jewish people should follow his lead.

  25. MRW. says:

    Jim. Zionism should be as socially unacceptable as necrophilia or cannibalism. It's a ghastly perversion, based on institutionalized violence.

    Man, if you had said this to me 6.5 years ago, I would have torn your head off. I would have excoriated you far and wide as anti-semitic, a piece of shit person, a horror, a blight ofn humanity.

    Amazing what some education and research can do. I ached as I reviewed what I didn't know. I experienced such pain at discovering that I was profoundly unaware and stupid about accepting 'facts' as given that I never bothered to investigate. Then mention of it to others branded me as that which I branded others.

    I have two masters degrees from the top schools in the world in their fields. I now know that they are worthless. Everything I learned about the 20th C was a lie except for things I can physically see like cars and rockets and washing machines and phones and computers. But now, even though I can see a rocket, I even question the moon landing. 1) Why hasn't it been replicated? 2) How could a radio — an astronaut talked to the President on that specific radio — that can't travel more than 4,000 miles on earth travel more than 250,000 miles into space when the earth is spinning? Such has been my disillusionment.

  26. MRW. says:

    BLG.

    I agree with you completely.

  27. John Lewis-Dickerson says:

    LeaNder, FROM ABOVE – "Ed, the problem lies here: (which largely can be laid at the feet of corrupt Zionists and their partners)"

    ME: I have a problem with this as well. A more complete excerpt is – "After a few more years of economic drag (which largely can be laid at the feet of corrupt Zionists and their partners)…"

    It is true that many pro-Israel groups have argued for ever higher defense expenditures in this country (beginning in the 70s) and some of them support our spending whatever it takes to implement the neocon "Clean Break" strategy to "secure the Realm" for Greater Israel. That may be a 'significant' component of our current economic woes, but it is a gross exaggeration to say that the current "economic drag" can/should be "largely…laid at the feet of… Zionists and their partners". There is a plethora of other causal factors.

  28. Jim Haygood says:

    'there were and are a tremendous number of Jews (most of them Zionists) in the loop that was responsible for the housing bubble, from the directors of The Fed who engineered the interest rates to the Wall Street banksters who kept the money flowing.' — Ed

    It's a measure of the absence of antisemitism that the financial train wreck is not being painted as a Jewish conspiracy, despite a prominent Jewish role in it.

    In the case of the new Treasury Secretary, Tim Geithner, conflict of interest is the most pertinent issue. Geithner spent five years heading the flagship New York branch of the Federal Reserve — an entity whose capital stock is owned by its member banks, including the big money center banks. Now in one of his first acts as the head of the public Treasury, he is going to propose a vast bailout plan for … those very same money center banks.

    In a nutshell, former TreasSec Hank Paulson of Goldman Sachs presided over the conversion of all the investment banks (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, et al) into commercial banks, to obtain government capital. Now his replacement, Tim Geithner, proposes vast amounts of additional capital for these players, plus a 'cash for trash' plan in which the government will buy toxic, near-worthless assets from them at inflated prices. This is a flagrant LooterFest, as the voracious foxes pillage the henhouse.

    The conflict of interest case against Geithner is brutally clear. Nevertheless, if one wanted to explore some of the secondary ethnic and globalist angles, Geithner is an astonishing piece of work. You couldn't make up a background like his. A protégé of Henry Kissinger, Robert Rubin and Larry Summers, Geithner worked at the CFR and the IMF, while his dad was a Ford Foundation honcho.

    Few Americans are aware that salaries at IMF headquarters in Washington, DC are paid tax free, by treaty. To accomplish this objective for U.S. citizens, the IMF actually reimburses them for federal and state taxes, plus the employer's 50 percent share of FICA taxes. Geithner applied for the reimbursement … and pocketed it. This is no minor oversight — it's outright, premeditated fraud.

    If the Obama administration has an Achilles heel, it's 'Chicago values.' Allegations of corruption, involving the attempted sale of his Senate seat, began before Obama even took office. Already two of his cabinet nominees, Geithner and Daschle, have been revealed as accomplished tax fraudsters.

    But Obama doesn't care. Like Bush, Obama exhibits a remarkable talent for surrounding himself with the wrong people — the avaricious, the corrupt, and those with extraneous agendas. I foresee serious trouble for Obama, sooner rather than later. It would be a shame for him to fall into the ethnic stereotype of the corrupt black politician. He's smart enough to know better, but like Geithner and Daschle, thinks he can get away with it. We'll see.

  29. Mohammad says:

    If Chris can call those who support universal humanity Islamic Fascism, what stoppes aother person from calling Chris who defends Jewish particularism a Nazi Jew?

    The real outcome of categorizing one particular abrahamic religion as fascism is that people can do that to the other Abrahamic religion. You wanna know why Anti Jewish sentiments are on the rise in Europe? because the Mohammad cartoons open the gates to hell.

    Mr Bebel can enjoy the short term benefits of identifying Muslims as Fascists etc, but the long term real loser in the attack on Islam is both Judaism and israel, in particular the wholeslae support they have been receiving from the racist Europe since the end of world war 2.

    I say that because Europe did not need Zionism and Mr Bebel to dislike Islam and Muslims. Europe remained racist towards islam even after the world war 2. The old animosity from the crusade time is still alive and kicking; it fact it never went away, but the kind of change of attitude that starts with labelling Muslims Fascists can potentially cost Israel and its friends a lot of solid support.

    Those neocons who invented terms like Islamo Fascism and all that should have thought about their creation twice.

    Sometimes one cannot close the gate of hell they oepn for others. Sometimes when you start a fire, you may burn in the fire yourself.

  30. Jim Haygood says:

    MRW. 'Everything I learned about the 20th C was a lie.'

    This became apparent to me in March 2003, when Bush attacked Iraq despite massive, worldwide demonstrations against the pending attack. It became obvious that everything I had been taught about the consititution and civic democracy was a ludicrous hoax. We are governed by an unaccountable elite. I no longer vote, or waste my time writing thoughtful letters to KongressKlowns, who have no more power than you or I.

    MRW. 'I even question the moon landing. 1) Why hasn't it been replicated? 2) How could a radio — an astronaut talked to the President on that specific radio — that can't travel more than 4,000 miles on earth travel more than 250,000 miles into space when the earth is spinning?'

    You know, I attended junior high and high school in the Clear Lake City area, where NASA is located. Some astronauts and the chief photographer were in our church. He gave my dad all kinds of memorabilia — pieces of film and foil that were carried to the moon. If this was all a hoax, it was a very large-scale one.

    Nevertheless, your willingness to 'question everything' is still commendable. And you could be right. Still, I will attempt to answer your questions:

    1) 'Why hasn't it been replicated?' — A major reason is lack of economic return. No valuable stategic minerals were found, nor any valuable industrial processes deriving from weightlessness. The great U.S. boom of the 1950s and 1960s ended in the early 1970s, and the space program — unable to pay its way — became another burden.

    2) 'How could a radio — an astronaut talked to the President on that specific radio — that can't travel more than 4,000 miles on earth travel more than 250,000 miles into space when the earth is spinning?'

    Distance is not a big issue when 'line of sight' is taken out of the equation. You can tune in shortwave stations from all over the world, when the signals can bounce off the ionosphere. Propogating radio waves 250,000 miles into space is easy by comparison.

    The earth's spin was handled by having broadcast/reception stations all around the globe. When the mainland U.S. lost line-of-sight to the moon, the broadcast was shifted to Hawaii, then to Australia, and so forth.

    The wild card is whether it's true that alien artifacts were found on the dark side of the moon. Objectively, I would put the probability as low, but not zero. As we know from 'real life,' the truth is invariably stranger than fiction. Question everything …

  31. Ed says:

    One of the things that seems to join many of these economic fraudsters at the hip is Zionism, or support for Zionism. It seems to be part of their tacit pact. That is no coincidence. And if you read J. Martillo, the architecture of Zionism is the primary organizational structure or vessel of their fraudulent activity. Zionism is about more than just Israel; it's about an entire subterranean financial society that runs interference on behalf of its own, and enables epic acts of fraud against the American taxpayer.

  32. samuelburke says:

    link to jewsagainstzionism.com

    Zionism and Current Events
    We provide articles on current Zionist activities with the response of True Torah Jews, as well as articles on the latest anti-Zionist activities.
    The six most recent articles:
    South African Jews Refuse to be Represented by Zionists

    Antwerp Jews Disassociate from Zionist Activities

    Jews Protest Zionism in LA and Toronto

    Iranian Jews Protest Zionist Attack on Gaza

    The Torah Position on the Current Conflict in Gaza

    Mumbai: Why are Jews a Target?

    More current news articles….
    Traditional Jews Are Not Zionists
    Although there are those who refuse to accept theteachings of our Rabbisand will continue to support theZioniststate, there are also many who are totally unaware of thehistory of Zionismand its contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews.

    Words of the Rabbis Opposing Zionism – Today's Quote
    Rabbi Baruch Kaplan
    Rabbi Baruch Kaplan
    Today’s wicked Zionists are just like their predecessors, who were responsible for causing terrible suffering in Palestine with their wars with the Arabs, may G-d have mercy. At that time in 1929, the Zionists had a slogan arguing that the Western Wall in Jerusalem was a Jewish “national symbol.” Of course, the Arabs disagreed with this idea, considering that they had control of the location for over 1,100 years. However, the Zionist mobs were yelling that “The Wall is ours!” It’s hard to understand why they felt that way considering they have no connection to the Jewish holy places whatsoever. An argument erupted in the Jewish newspapers about establishing a permanent prayer area for Jews at the Wall. This provoked the Arabs, and the rabbi of Jerusalem at the time, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld begged them to stop and to be appreciative to the Arabs for allowing Jews to pray at the Wall for so many centuries undisturbed. However, the Zionists wanted a permanent setup under their control.
    Do these words of the Zionists represent YOU?
    Read the words of the Zionists and decide for yourself if Zionism represents your interests and beliefs.

    Words of the Zionists – Today's Quote
    Yitzchak Greenbaum
    Yitzhak Gruenbaum was chairperson of the Jewish Agency's Rescue Committee.
    In his book, "In Days of Holocaust and Destruction," Yitzchak Greenbaum writes, "when they asked me, couldn't you give money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of Jews in Europe, I said, 'NO!' and I say again, 'NO!'…one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance."
    …Holocaust Victims Accuse, pp 26.

  33. Ed says:

    Mohammad is right that European imperial interests, fraternities and conspiracies existed before Zionism (and also parallel with Zionism). But today, "imperialism" is verboten, hence the imperial-minded need more politically and rhetorically sophisticated cover, which is where Israel and Zionism comes in. And many of those components of organized Jewish Zioonism that weren't already in bed with the imperialists were more than happy to climb right in. In fact, it was probably the Jewish Zionists who came up with the idea of Zionism as a rhetorical and political cover for imperialism. It allowed them to kill two birds with one stone: it enabled their Jewish-supremacist state, and simultaneously helped them get rich along with their neo-imperialist partners.

  34. Citizen says:

    I see there are some really high caliber intellects here–more importantly, especially as I can't see how it could give them economic security–in fact just the contrary, they have done their homework well beyond the usual crap taught in our universities.

    Jim Haygood, Ed, samuelburke, Mohammed–keep it up, everything you guys said so far on this thread is exactly where and how the dots slowly connect–who knows, as in a pointillist painting, one day the rubes
    will see the picture.

  35. American says:

    Ed is right…Americans for the most part were always indifferent to Israel.

    The only ones who 'support' Israel are jews and the whacky christian zionist.

    I would say 90% of Americans who puruse the net for their news are anti-Israel. Those who don't use the net for news mostly don't care about political issues anyway.

    But I hear disparging remarks about Israel and even the jews these days among those who rely on the popular media for news.
    That, I think, is mostly part and parcel of the general 'Burn Washington to the ground and start over' attitude among the public.

    The public is ready to rumble on 'everything'. Israel is one of those things.

    Three things I am sure of…Obama will disappoint..the ecomonic stimulus will not work long term….and Israel will give us another shocking event.

    So keep your power dry..the only thing we don't know is when that perfect storm will hit.

  36. Vera Beaudin Saeedpour says:

    While we fiddle with words, the structures that sustain the dismal status quo are being reinforced. Zionists are doing while we are writing. Take this fine example of how well they stand truth on its head in the halls of what we prefer to believe is "higher" education:

    Jerusalem Post, Feb. 1, 2009
    Asaf Romirowsky , THE JERUSALEM POST

    What can be done to reverse the failures of Middle East studies in North America? Students today are subjected to radical views of the Middle East by professors who seldom brook dissent. Georgetown's Program for Jewish Civilization (PJC) offers an alternative for students seeking to avoid the academic weaknesses that have so infected Middle East studies.

    These analytical shortcomings are well documented: politicized curricula, agit prop substituting for solid teaching and an unwillingness to ask difficult questions about Middle Eastern cultures are only some of many faults to plague the field in recent decades.

    Georgetown University presents a case-study of this failure. Awash in Saudi money and heavily influenced by the late Edward Said's ideology of ubiquitous Orientalism, Georgetown is perhaps the most Wahhabi-friendly university in America. Although school administrators and many in the media consider donations from Saudis and other Arab nations to American universities as generous support to schools that have educated their elites, these gifts in fact support work that often turns a blind eye to the region's systemic problems in favor of skewering American and Israeli interests.

    Major Arab donations to US universities began in the 1960s and '70s, with Muslim donors funneling millions of dollars to support Islamic studies, hire faculty specialists in Middle East studies and fund scholarships and conferences. But this largesse only exacerbated extant problems in Middle East studies, so that today politicized scholarship, some of it backed by petrodollars, is commonplace throughout the field. Critics of Middle East studies in North America point frequently to widespread anti-Israel, anti-American bias in scholarship and teaching on the Arab-Israeli conflict as evidence of the field's politicization and decline.

    GIVEN THIS pedagogical and epistemological decline, Georgetown's decision to establish PJC in 2003 is a significant milestone along the path to reforming the scholarship and teaching of the region. Beyond the more common subjects of religion and literature, faculty study the economic, cultural, political, historical, philosophical and scientific accomplishments of the Jewish people.

    Michael Oren, author of two best-selling books on Middle Eastern history, specializes in diplomatic and military history at the Shalem Center, a Jerusalem-based research institute. This year he is a visiting professor at PJC, and in conversation with me he gave PJC high marks: PJC is today America's leading institute for teaching and research on Israel and an integral part of Georgetown's prestigious School of Foreign Service. Enrolling dozens of students – Jews and non-Jews – and hosting an average of one public lecture per week on subjects relating to Israel and the Jewish people, PJC is unique among university programs. And its location in the country's premier foreign affairs school, situated in the nation's capital, affords PJC a special role in influencing current and future American policy.

    Similarly, Robert Lieber, a driving force behind the program, explained to me that PJC's home in Washington, close to America's foreign policy leaders, makes it stand out. There is a clear corollary, Lieber says, between teaching in Washington and having the ability to put theory into practice. Its location also helps it attract Middle East scholars of the caliber of Oren and ambassador Dennis Ross.

    Lieber also highlighted the program's ability to draw students from across the academic spectrum along with members of Washington's Jewish community. Such widespread enthusiasm demonstrates the need for PJC at Georgetown. Through its rigorous classes and public lectures, the greater university community can learn about the richness of Jewish civilization – along with the Arab-Israeli conflict – free from the bias that too often colors academic interpretations of the contemporary Middle East.

    THAT BIAS figures in what is perhaps the most important mission of PJC: to balance the influence of to two other centers at Georgetown. The Center for Contemporary Arab Studies (CCAS) advocates for a "one-state" solution between Israelis and Palestinians – a "solution" that would destroy Israel as a Jewish state. CCAS has provided a podium for such scholars as Virginia Tilley of Hobart and William Smith College, an advocate for the one-state solution who couches the radicalism of her position in academic cant.

    Even more problematic is the Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, named for the Saudi prince whose $20 million donation in 2005 gave the center's leader, John Esposito, a much louder voice in the Middle East studies community. Since then, the Alwaleed Center has become the locus of academic apologetics for Wahhabism in America. Along with his colleagues Yvonne Haddad, John Voll and others, Esposito and the newly rejuvenated center are now in a position to proliferate a glossy vision of Wahhabi Islam to Americans.

    The Alwaleed Center isn't shy about forging ties to radical Islamist groups with links to those who have launched attacks against Jews and Americans worldwide. A prime example of such collaboration is a joint conference held by the Alwaleed Center with the United Association for Studies and Research (UASR) in July 2000. UASR was by then known as the political command for Hamas in the United States, and Esposito's co-chair for the conference was then-UASR executive director Ahmed Yousef, who fled the country in 2005 to avoid prosecution and consequently served as a Hamas spokesman in Gaza.

    Given this hostile environment, PJC's launch proves that determined administrators and committed professors can confront the anti-Israel scholarship of Middle East studies departments. But they must have the courage and independence to buck powerful, well-funded interests on their own campuses. Other universities should follow Georgetown's bold lead and create centers and programs such as the Program for Jewish Civilization. By ensuring that Jewish history and culture receive the research and teaching they deserve, we can offer an alternative voice to the monolithic, one-sided agenda that has dominated so many campuses where, for far too long, the loudest voices have supported a decidedly anti-Israel perspective.

    The writer is an adjunct scholar for Campus Watch, a project of the Middle East Forum, and manager of Israel and Middle East affairs for the Jewish Federation of Greater Philadelphia.

  37. Citizen says:

    Yeah talking about the huge pot calling the kettle black. You are right, Vera. Campus Watch web site is just full of this unvarnished propaganda against the courageous attempt to let in a little objectivity light in the ivory towers. The free play of ideas is turned
    on its head by "scholars" like this Israel-Firster, Asaf Romirowsky. And, of course, the Jewish Post is just that.

    American, you speak hard core truth in my experience. And yes,
    the economy fix will not work, the whole country except the banksters, the foxes put in charge of our financial henhouse, is headed down. The country will be like the empty Packard plant
    that's been sitting empty for, what, a half-century? My bet for
    the Israel part of the perfect storm is an Israeli attack on Iran. Timing? Half-way through Obama's term?

  38. Duscany says:

    chris berel: "Compund that with the willy-nilly launch of missles towards Jewish kindergartens."

    Unlike the missiles launched by the Israelis at UN schools, the Hamas missiles are unguided. I suspect the likelihood that one will willy-nilly hit a kindergarten is far less than the likelihood it will explode in an empty field.

  39. chris berel says:

    You meant unlike the Israeli launch of missles at Hamas terrorists who were using a UN school for a launch pad?

    Of course that's what you meant.

    Hamas' incompetence is no excuse.

  40. Duscany says:

    "You meant unlike the Israeli launch of missles at Hamas terrorists who were using a UN school for a launch pad?"

    When an ostensibly moral army launches missiles at a school, it's the obligation of that army to provide proof that terrorists were hiding there. Israel hasn't done that. It just claims "human shield" and blows up anything in its sights, children be damned. No one believes Israel anymore. The textbooks are already being written. When you look up IDF, the footnotes will say, "See Waffen-SS."

  41. MRW. says:

    Jim Haygood.

    Thanks.

    I realize the moon/no moon thing is over the top. But it came to me after Stanley Kubrick's death when his widow admitted (BBC) that Nixon hired Kubrick to create a moonscape at Pinewood Studios (not sure this was it). Nixon was afraid that if there was one glitch in the television broadcast, the USA would be the world's laughingstock, and he couldn't chance it. So they pre-recorded it. In return, Kubrick got use of a NASA camera that he wanted to shoot Barry Lyndon. Then he holed up on his property and never gave interviews again. He became a recluse. As the Superbowl event official said today when asked why Faith Hill and Jennifer Hudson were lip-synced: We couldn't take the chance. Ditto Yo-Yo-Mah and Pearlman at the Inaugural.

    Others who knew about this died. Kubrick did not.

    I checked the story of Kubrick's widow about a year ago and the original stories were doctored with smears mocking her sanity.

  42. MRW. says:

    Here is the link to the story that Vera Beaudin Saeedpour posted in full. It’s called “Balancing the bias” By ASAF ROMIROWSKY
    link to jpost.com

  43. MRW. says:

    Vera.

    My teeth curled reading that tripe. The gall. The unmitigated gall

    This was priceless at the end:

    By ensuring that Jewish history and culture receive the research and teaching they deserve, we can offer an alternative voice to the monolithic, one-sided agenda that has dominated so many campuses where, for far too long, the loudest voices have supported a decidedly anti-Israel perspective.

    "By ensuring that Jewish history and culture receive the research and teaching they deserve?" What has been going on for the past century?

  44. Gene says:

    My last word on this. Yes, as I noted above, there has been change but reading this, I realize that there's still a lot of work to be done.

  45. chris berel says:

    As the Superbowl event official said today when asked why Faith Hill and Jennifer Hudson were lip-synced: We couldn't take the chance. Ditto Yo-Yo-Mah and Pearlman at the Inaugural.

    Posted by: MRW. | February 03, 2009 at 12:19 AM

    You actually needed to lie about why Yo-Yo Mah used a recording? Did you forget about the inability to keep the instruments tuned at that temperature? Or is there nothing you won't lie about to further your agenda?

  46. MM says:

    Like Chris I'm just plain old SICK of the Moonlanding Lobby and its agents hijacking our national discourse with vicious smears and lies, just to further their agenda.

  47. Citizen says:

    chris berel is an Israel Firster. Once you know that, it's really easy to decipher what he says in his comments. Less easy is the American goy deaths that allow chris berel to express free speech. But he does not care. You can be sure he never served in the US military.

  48. mark hope says:

    For your information, there is a chance that the WTC attack by terrorist is planned or at least known by the israel. Why? Because on that horrible day, 9 September 2001, 4000 jewish worker who work in WTC did not go to their office in WTC, ALL OF THEM. Is this make sense? Maybe one or two is reasonable. But 4000 of them, all in one day, the day the terrorist attack WTC. There must something behind their absence on 9 September 2001. Maybe they planned it or knew but not tell the american officer. Now let me ask you, who is the parties that gain the most benefit from the WTC attak. THE ONE AND NOT ONLY ISRAEL.