Twenty-two people were arrested yesterday attempting to conduct a citizen’s arrest of former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert while he gave a speech to the World Affairs Council in San Francisco. This follows similar actions in Chicago and New Orleans.
-
-
- Alterman says BDS shares Ahmadinejad’s agenda, and Hezbollah’s too 15
- Fear, the African refugees and the cost of maintaining Israel … 6
- Netanyahu govt to impose fines on mayors of cities that … 24
- Resume builders: Be a broken record on Iran, cheer authoritarians … 31
- UN Committee: Israeli system ‘tantamount to apartheid’ 0
- Slater on Beinart 30
- And we live on… 5
- US official — we went to Israel first 15
-
- BDS victory: South Africa strips Ahava’s ‘made in Israel’ label 714
- Video: Israeli mob demands all African refugees be deported from … 479
- Day after pogroms, Likud MK calls for internment camp for … 436
- ‘This is not fair play’: Mahmoud Sarsak’s family demands his … 399
- March of the Flags 349
- Neocons in Washington Post: Military strike on Iran would ‘calm … 327
- Nabi Saleh’s Bassem Tamimi convicted by Israeli courts based on … 294
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status … 236
-
- The Messiah’s Donkey: Settlers fire on Palestinian villagers as the … 237
- Aharon Appelfeld’s rage at the German language (and Arendt’s need … 156
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their … 150
- March of the Flags 127
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism 120
- Feeling the hate in Long Island 97
- Israeli judge to issue verdict in Rachel Corrie case 94
- Video: Israeli mob demands all African refugees be deported from … 86
-
Recent Comments
click link to see last 100 comments- Slater on Beinart (30)
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status for millions (43)
- Alterman says BDS shares Ahmadinejad’s agenda, and Hezbollah’s too (15)
- American: Alterman is just another Zio Supremo…same old, same old. I have heard and seen this statement of...
- traintosiberia: Use of the image of Ahmednezad serves two purposes.One of them is to permanently consign Ahmednezad...
- OlegR: /Palestinians have been left with no choice but to pursue a rights-based agenda (including ROR)/ Shmuel you...
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their descendants (150)
- Netanyahu govt to impose fines on mayors of cities that employ migrant workers (24)
- tokyobk: Gamal, please follow the thread from the beginning. I have no love for Sharon and being born in Palestine...
Our Writers
- Philip Weiss
- Adam Horowitz
- Jeffrey Blankfort
- Anonymous
- Jack Ross
- Today in Palestine
- James North and Philip Weiss
- Susie Kneedler
Blogroll
The irony of those exagerated “actions”, is that the majority of those that attended that are not “converted” are further alienated from your cause.
Thankfully the taunting was minor with little implication of then current violence.
I’ve seen differently at demonstrations that I’ve attended, to support Palestinian rights.
Look at the others’ faces. They are politely only laughing at the demonstrators.
What did Olmert say at the talks? Aren’t you even personally curious?
Do you know of Olmert’s personal history? Prior to being prime minister, he was far more strict and even suppressive of Palestinians while a likud mayor of Jerusalem. His children told him of the experiences of Palestinians they knew, and had visited the West Bank, and convinced him confidently that Palestinians were human beings, deserving of decent life.
Its odd to attack someone as “war criminal” who changed his views.
“Actions speak louder than words”.
It’s too bad Jack Abramoff is in prison. He could probably use someone like you, were he in a position to re-open his pro-apartheid International Freedom Foundation outfit.
Witty’s true calling was to be Bernie Madoff’s accountant. Hey Richard, isn’t it strange that Madoff’s multibillion dollar operation wasn’t audited by the Big 4, just a Jewish solo practitioner you’d think would be taking in 1040′s off the street? What does this tell us about his investors, like the trustees of Elie Wiesel’s foundation?
Why not no mercy, regardless of age then and now, and later life trajectory?
No setting of morality by sunshine example?
link to reuters.com
And Polanski?
Look at the others’ faces. They are politely only laughing at the demonstrators.
I watched the entire video. There were a few people laughing quietly – not many. There were a couple times when the protester of the moment was directly confronted by an audience member and told to shut up or whatever. There were a lot of people who seemed indifferent one way or the other. There were some who seemed to be interested in what the protester had to say. There were some who had very introspective looks on their faces, as if they were in deep thought about what was happening and their place in it as they sat there.
So you guys are gonna keep on replying to Witty with Madoff and Polanski? Oh, that’ll be useful! Oh, won’t that bring the intelligent, humanitarian minded crowd running to Mondowiess.
Look, America Fust-Cless and your foremost Citizen, I have no doubt, from what I have seen, that anti-Semitism will have it’s place in the I-P debate, just like bigotry took up a lot of the debate over civil rights. But I really don’t think this is the place to sell it.
So let’s I’m a new reader to Mondowiess, interested in resolving some of the questions in my mind about I-P issues. Would you like to explain to me the connection between Olmert, Polanski and Madoff? Gosh, I can only think of one!
You two and Witty deserve each other. You all argue on the same basis.
Once again, I urge Phil and/or Adam to get in touch with Mark Elf at JSF and discuss standards for comments.
The issue with Olmert is whether or not he should be called to account, confronted
with his past actions, same as the old guy now on trial in Germany
for his actions as a teen guard during WW2, Goosey–check out the url I referenced.
Now reread what Witty said in defense of Olmert. Obviously Polanski case raises
similar issues in terms his age, and whether he should be made to pay for his single crime committed so long ago–to set example, etc.
Mooser – what have you got against the commenters here? are you the anti-semitism police? what do you even know about semitism – or about Israel? I know you don’t carry water for the mega-zionists, but you cannot impersonate Foxman here. there’s honest outrage from individuals who are apalled that an utterly disgusting human being – olmert – seen accepting stuffed envelops of cash! – would be feted like he was anything other than a walking disgrace. And if saome people see a line leading from the immorality of an indicted criminal like olmert to a convicted one like madoff (who, after all, supported many occupation- and blood-letting “worthwhile” activities in that creepy place in the ME) – that is quite natural. i think you should extend more respect for the excellent posters here, just like they do to you. I personally appreciate the comments from America first and citizen, and your continuing efforts to denigrate and cast aspersions on their commendable contributions by childish tricks like twisting names, etc would cause you to be the first ejected on JWF, for example. I am not even going to bring up that callous comment you made about the dead and murdered children in gaza. plenty took you to task for that and if I recall, you did repent (or did you? should I suspect motives like you suspect those of others?)
For the record, I still miss chris moore. He contributed to the conversation whether I agreed or disagreed with his specific take. One of these days, you should let us know why what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander.
Look on the bright side – Israel did agree to extradite the 7 guilty of nigerian scam to the us, where they can no doubt get some excellent lawyers to defend them – of course, how good, depends on whether on how many of the scammed senior citizens were jewish. now by all means feel free to twist my name too, and we’ll have some real fun ( if I have time, that is)
Hey, people are complex. That’s why this guy should be allowed to do speaking tours of the U.S., right?
Karadzic plans to boycott trial
link to news.bbc.co.uk
Hey Witty, did you EVER think that those racists in the South had to be converted? Or DEFEATED?
What about White Apartheid SA?
No. This is a FUCKING distraction. There is no bridge to build between a Zionist ethnocentric Jew, fake Democrook liberal, right-wing jingoistic Euro-American exceptionalist, or the Chirsitan right and the Palestinian cause.
There is none. There will never be.
Zionism is racism.
Who cares what those yuppie scumbags think?
I’ll tell you one thing Witty. You and people like you are supporters of genocide. A slow genocide. Because ALL Israel has is PR. NOTHING else. So people like you DIVERT and DELAY accoutability on the Satanic State of Israel so that over time, it can establish facts on the ground.
Go to hell.
you are a racist, talk about feeling the hate Cliff.
have fun at this weekend’s klan meeting, here its gonna be a real ‘cross’ burner
“have fun at this weekend’s klan meeting, here its gonna be a real ‘cross’ burner ”
Don’t worry yonira, at least they don’t incinerate children at Klan meetings.
Please point to the “I changed my views” defense to a war crimes charge under international law.
Hilter loved Jews when he was 8 years old, but he changed his views!
“Its odd to attack someone as “war criminal” who changed his views.”
Yeah Richard, cause that’s what the Nuremberg Trials were all about! Not what the Nazis did, but whether they had changed their views or not?
So for the Palestinians, we memorialise the atrocity of every single firecracker or rock. But for Israelis, well, they can “change their views”.
Oh well, that’s your brain on “ziocaine”. Murderous grandiosity alternating with kvetching and cringing paranoia.
“They are politely only laughing at the demonstrators.”
And that is what we can get away with, we who are so far removed from suffering.
Children burn. And we only laugh politely.
Exactly, David.
An audience of actual human beings would have pelted that pathetic olmert murdered with eggs and not so fresh tomatoes. It’s like welcoming the rwanda killers or pol pot (oops, my mistake. olmert did not kill his fellow “jewish” citizens. just the others)
Wish there was something more that could be done than these symbolic actions by protesters.
Luckily, there is:
link to endtheoccupation.org
link to endtheoccupation.org
link to endtheoccupation.org
Hmm. Since we’re lending a sympathetic ear to folks we disagree with, let’s let one of the protesters describe in their own words why they did what they did:
link to electronicintifada.net
If former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had merely been a diplomat or an academic offering a controversial viewpoint, then interrupting his 15 October speech at University of Chicago’s Mandel Hall would certainly have been an attempt to stifle debate (Noah Moskowitz, Meredyth Richards and Lee Solomon, “The importance of open dialogue,” Chicago Maroon, 19 October 2009). Indeed, I experienced exactly such attempts when my own appearance at Mandel Hall last January, with Professor John Mearsheimer and Norman Finkelstein, was constantly interrupted by hecklers.
But confronting a political leader suspected of war crimes and crimes against humanity cannot be viewed the same way.
The report of the UN Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict last winter, headed by Judge Richard Goldstone, found that Israel engaged in willful, widespread and wanton destruction of civilian property and infrastructure, causing deliberate suffering to the civilian population. It found “that the incidents and patterns of events considered in the report are the result of deliberate planning and policy decisions” and that many may amount to “war crimes” and “crimes against humanity.” If that proves true, then the individual with primary responsibility is Ehud Olmert, who, as prime minister and the top civilian commander of Israel’s armed forces, was involved in virtually every aspect of planning and execution.
The killings of more than 3,000 Palestinians and Lebanese during Olmert’s three years in office are not mere differences of opinion to be challenged with a polite question written on a pre-screened note card. They are crimes for which Olmert is accountable before international law and public opinion.
Israel, unlike Hamas (also accused of war crimes by Goldstone), completely refused to cooperate with the Goldstone Mission. Instead of accountability, Olmert is, obscenely, traveling around the United States offering justifications for these appalling crimes, collecting large speaking fees, and being feted as a “courageous” statesman.
In their 20 October email to the University of Chicago community, President Robert Zimmer and Provost Thomas Rosenbaum condemned the “disruptions” during Olmert’s speech. “Any stifling of debate,” they wrote, “runs counter to the primary values of the University of Chicago and to our long-standing position as an exemplar of academic freedom.”
Was it in order to promote debate that the University insisted on pre-screening questions and imposed a recording ban for students and media? In the name of promoting debate, will the University now invite Hamas leader Khaled Meshal — perhaps by video link — to lecture on leadership to its students, and offer him a large honorarium? Can we soon expect Sudan’s President Omar Bashir to make an appearance at Mandel Hall?
When I and others verbally confronted Olmert, we stood for academic freedom, human rights, and justice, especially for hundreds of thousands of students deprived of those same rights by Olmert’s actions.
During Israel’s attack on Gaza last winter, schools and universities were among the primary targets. According to the Goldstone report, Israeli military attacks destroyed or damaged at least 280 schools and kindergartens. In total, 164 pupils and 12 teachers were killed, and 454 pupils and five teachers injured.
After the bombing, Olmert and Israel continued their attack on academic freedom, blocking educational supplies from reaching Gaza. Textbooks, notebooks, stationery and computers are among the forbidden items. In September, Chris Gunness, spokesman for UNRWA, the UN agency for Palestine refugees, publicly appealed to Israel to lift its ban on books and other supplies from reaching Gaza’s traumatized students.
Israel destroyed buildings at the Islamic University and other universities. According to the Goldstone report, these “were civilian, educational buildings and the Mission did not find any information about their use as a military facility or their contribution to a military effort that might have made them a legitimate target in the eyes of the Israeli armed forces.”
Gaza’s university students — 60 percent of them women — study all the things that students do at the University of Chicago. Their motivations, aspirations, and abilities are just as high, but their lives are suffocated by unimaginable violence, trauma, and Israel’s blockade, itself a war crime. Olmert is the person who ordered these acts and must be held accountable.
Crimes against humanity are defined as “crimes that shock the conscience.” When the institutions with the moral and legal responsibility to punish and prevent the crimes choose complicit silence — or, worse, harbor a suspected war criminal, already on trial for corruption in Israel, and present him to students as a paragon of “leadership” — then disobedience, if that is what it takes to break the silence, is an ethical duty. Instead of condemning them, the University should be proud that its students were among those who had the courage to stand up.
For the first time in recorded history, an Israeli prime minister was publicly confronted with the names of his victims. It was a symbolic crack in the wall of impunity and a foretaste of the public justice victims have a right to receive when Olmert is tried in a court of law.
exagerated [sic] “actions”
——————–
Only in the mind of a sick person is disruption of a war criminal’s propaganda considered “exaggerated”. I’ll have you know that in the last nine years Israel has massacred and killed more than 6,000 Palestinians.
Had more than 6000 Israelis been the victims, you wouldn’t object to nuking the victimizer.
You’re sick and you need help with your mental psychosis. You’re no different than those who who giggled, cursed and mocked the protesters.
link to btselem.org
What is it that the parties are to negotiate about? The Palestinians and the Jewish far-leftists assume vast concessions would bring peace. Abbas says he rejected Jerusalem Arab neighbourhoods from Olmert. Olmert offered Abbas the equivalent of 100% of the territories. Who is going to offer him more? It doesn`t take a Leiberman to tell us that any peace process would be a sham. The only purpose of talks is the Western hope that this will delay Palestinian violence.
Every Palestinian leader wants 2 Palestinian states, all of Jerusalem and left wing Jews are to ignorant to see this.
Look at the PLO congress a few months ago.
They celebrated Arab mass murderers, talked how 5 million Arabs were going to Israel and that all of Jerusalem would be controlled by the Arabs.
Plain and Simple. The Palestinians are Rejectionists.
If the Left had their way, Jews would be living under Sharia law and the Palestinians would be the majority in Israel.
Nomi – you need to get up to speed. Here’s a quick hasbara primer:
For more details, go to: link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
You can save a lot of time and electrons here by using the shorthand, as your posts can all be reduced to: 2 They suck
Hey, potsherd, cut it out! As my Dad used to say to panhandlers (before he gave them a couple of dollars: “Beat it buddy, I’m working this side of the street!”
Thanks for refering and linking to that excellent article on the four-part disharmony of Hasbara.
Like potsherd said Nomi, you need to update your talking points.
Even if it was true that Olmert offered Abbas the equivalent of 100% of the territories (which is false BTW) , Olmert was a sitting suck PM with no control of the Senate. so Abbas knew that Olmert had no hope in hell of delivering. The most that Olmert would have ever offered in 100% of 20%, and that so called 100% was comprised of disconnected bantustans.
For Olmert to have offered Abbas the equivalent of 100% of the territories, he had to have offered to dismantle the majority fo the settlements. I don’t suppose that pops up in you propaganda.
As for delaying violence, since when has Israel allowed peace talks or ceasfires to discourage them from masacring Palestinians?
“They celebrated Arab mass murderers, talked how 5 million Arabs were going to Israel and that all of Jerusalem would be controlled by the Arabs.”
And Olmert, the same one that you claim offered Abbas the equivalent of 100% of the territories told the COngress that he believes in Israel’s right to all land from Jordan to the sea. Lieberman described the Arab Peace proposal, which offers to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders, as dangerous, so it’s ittle wonder he wants to dismiss any suggestion of a pace process.
The irony is that if the right have their way, Palestinians will be the majority in Israel.
Olmert offered the Palestinians this great deal knowing there was never a country called Palestine. The only state to exist as an independent state in ancient times and modern times was Israel. Most of the so called Palestinians were brought to the country from Syria and Egypt in the early 1900s because of all the economic opportunities the Jews created. Mark Twain who visited the land in 1867 called the land a dump and wondered where all the people were.
Hi, you must be NEW here. We’ve never heard those arguments before though! Compelling and rich! Why God didn’t I see the light? You really are Chosen!
Brb, converting to Zionism. Those Palestinians don’t exist! Jews made the desert bloom! Never again! Hitler! Nazis! Bagels! Antisemitism! Terrorists!
Generous offer! Generous offer!
You forgot: ‘Partner for Peace’
Uhh, “safe haven”?
You seem to have a real commanding breadth of history. I’m very impressed.
It’s hard to see how Israel will ever escape it’s pariah
status, with this level of defense. Take some more bong hits, and you might come up with better material. This is the viewpoint of a lazy Zionist. No creativity.
Mom would be upset.
All I can say is, when the masses begin to comprehend with your enemies plight and suffering, your days are numbered.
Nomi998 – I have taken the liberty to paraphrase your comment a bit:
The UN once offered the jews of europe this great deal in the ME, knowing they had very little actual connection to a country called palestine . The only major states to exist as an independent states in ancient times were syria, babylon, egypt and persia. there were some minor jewish kingdoms around – as biblical stories go – just as there were moavites, edomites and what not. These were mythologically referred to as israel and judah, but there’s only some archaeological evidence of the later – a tiny fiefdom that on a good day, got to be a vassal state to one of the greater powers of the day. Most of the so called mizrahi “jews” in today’s israelistan are descendents of berbers, and were brought to the country from Syria, Egypt, iraq, yemen, and north africa in the later part of the 20th century because of all the economic opportunities the Jews of europe created for them. also to serve as demographic cannon fodder. There’s the history in a nut shell.
BTW, these converted arab jews suffered horrible discrimination for decades – continuing to this day – having become second class in an ashkenazi (ie khazar-descendent) dominated country that despised them. This is a matter of record, which I can personally attest to. or you can just read sand’s book (no chance of that, based on your sad collection of words that doesn’t quite to a comment add).
But enjoy the exchange with my betters.
And there I was – thinking the hasbara big whigs decided to send us their better operatives. I wonder what’s happening – WJ busy elsewhere?
You’re right, Danaaa. The better class of hasbarist no longer uses the mythology-based “there’s always been an Israel – never been a Palestine” argument. Should we be offended? Good historical recap, by the way.
Nomi998,
Take some time and reread this site, or just take potsherd’s advice.
The only state to exist as an independent state in ancient times and modern times was Israel. Un-hunh. Yeah, babee. Which, of course, is why all the Jews, Muslims, and Christians in the first three decades of the 20th C held Palestine passports, and bought their hummus with Palestinian money.
Hey noomi noomi, go to sleep you need some rest from all the nonsense you’re regurgitating.
Palestinians were brought to the country from Syria and Egypt in the early 1900s because of all the economic opportunities the Jews created. Mark Twain who visited the land in 1867 called the land a dump and wondered where all the people were.
Yeah they were brought. They were brought by the Jewish Agency just like you were brought from France or whatever European state you came from. Do you think we were born yesterday? So according to your Mark Twain reference, you and the rest of the Ashkenazis viewed Palestine as a fixer upper. The old “made the desert bloom”, some even use the “dried the swamps” slogan. Confused idiots.
“Olmert offered the Palestinians this great deal knowing there was never a country called Palestine. ”
Complete rubbish of course. Even if Olmert had made this offer, which is rubbish, he no chance in hell of delivering on it because by that stage he had no control of the Knesset.
“Most of the so called Palestinians were brought to the country from Syria and Egypt in the early 1900s because of all the economic opportunities the Jews created.”
Pure rubbish. Jews in were outnumbered 10:1 in 1916 and 4:1 in 1948.
“Mark Twain who visited the land in 1867 called the land a dump and wondered where all the people were. ”
Rubbish. Mark Twain was in Palestine in 1867 and he didn’t see many people. Since Palestinians are too stupid to know how to have sex, there aren’t any Palestinians today either.
IN 1987, villages like Hebron had about 170 thousand people (this would make it the second biggest city in Maryland) or Nablus with 135 thousand.
Any idiot, except Nomi, can tell you that world population figures today are quite different than they were in 1867. Egypt, for example, has about 80 million people today. In 1882, it’s populaton was 8 million.
One of the most ardent Zionists, Israel Zangwill, reveals that Twain was wrong. He wrote, as early as 1905, that Palestine was twice as thickly populated as the United States. He stated:
“Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ….. [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us.” (Righteous Victims, p. 140 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7-10)
The left just wants a 1 state solution. They want Israel destroyed. Everyone can see their aims.
Witty! Are these the people we’re supposed to persuade? Blind ideologues with racist notions about “land without people” and “no such thing as Palestine?”
Seriously, all you Zionists do is repeat the same damn lies, over and over and over again. It’s not working anymore. Especially not on the internet. Too bad that modernity is leaving you all behind.
Chaos,
What is with your creepy obsession with Witty.
yonira, what is your creepy obssession with enslaving Palestinians? lording over them? what is your creepy obsession with mocking an effort to brighten the day for some Palestinian children (the Zoo issue)?
oh that’s right, you’re a sadist (Zionist).
Now I’m confused, Nomi. Are we ignorant of Arab designs (as you posit above), or do we actually want Israel destroyed – for our own evil reasons? Inquiring leftist minds want to know.
Jesus, this ‘everyone wants Israel destroyed’ meme gets tedious. Everyone wants Israel to start acting like a grown-up and not some medieval fifedom, STFU, and learn how to live with its neighbors.
Israel is like the screaming kid in the department store, or on the plane, that you want to smother.
Actually Nomi,
It is the right, who by rejecting the creation of a Palestinian state, that want and are creating a 1 state solution. It is the right, knowing that the Palestinian population will soon overtake the Jewish population, that are destroying Israel.
Richard,
Most of use here (and probably most of those demonstrating) know that Olmert is a complex man who understands the train wreck Israel is heading towards if it continues to deny Palestinian statehood. And yet, he helped build the wall (not on morally or legally defensible boundaries) and ordered the gratuitously violent Gaza war–probably just to enhance his electoral prospects. So yes, evil coming from complexity is more interesting than evil coming from simple evil. Perhaps someone should write a play about him. He still should face justice for his actions.
It is a significant change on his part to reject likud and their thesis that the land from river to sea is Israel.
Sharon made a similar jump. (Sharon’s history was of orchestrator/implementor of the likud settlement design, so he had further to change, and only changed to an extent).
Olmert was the responsible person for the Lebanon fiasco/frustration. He was not the responsible party for the wall. That was Sharon.
The wall and the Operation Cast Lead, came as a direct response to Hamas terror. (Others as well, including formerly Fatah-led Al Aqsa Martyrs – with some conflict with Fatah central). (Its clearly not that simple as the wall is both defensive and offensive in intent simultaneously.)
They are two dancers. For an extended period, there was not a wall/fence in Palestine.
Two key events occurred. The two intifadas, each very different, with very different goals functionally communicated to Israelis.
The 1987 intifada certainly scared people (to say that it was non-violent is really a lie). But, as was the stated purpose of prior early terror (hijackings), the 87 intifada succeeded at communicating that Palestinians desired a different status than as semi-citizens of Israel, with some roadblocks, no self-governance.
So, Israel and the PLO negotiated on the principle of “two states for two peoples”, and it took a long time for that to get to be norm.
Fanatic Israelis and fanatic Palestinians didn’t want any reconciliation and derailed it by timed terror (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs, PFLP) and timed massacre (Goldstein) and assassination (Rabin).
After the Rabin assassination, Israelis got scared of the prospect of chaos (a second intifada) and instead of maturing their commitment to peace, temporarily adopted a fortress approach.
Netanyahu exploited that ambiguity and kept the “letter” of the agreement, but assaulted the spirit and continuing evolution of Israel-Palestinian progress, to confirm Palestinian distrust in the “letter” of the agreement.
The second intifada broke Oslo. It wasn’t that it was inherent in Oslo or subsequent agreements.
But, the second intifada (although reported to be initiated by Arafat) was the opportunity for Hamas. That is where they “earned” their street cred by sticking it to the IDF.
So, now there is distrust as the norm. Palestinians and solidarity distrust Israel (with reason and with exageration to the point of self-delusion). And, Israelis largely distrust Palestine (Hamas and even Fatah, sadly).
BDS is vague so offers no current hope for a fair settlement. Solidarity can’t figure out if it supports a two-state or a one-state approach, so offers no current hope for a fair and peaceful outcome.
Just “no”, like the republicans. The party, the movement of “no”. Likud/Hamas/solidarity could merge into one party on that overwhelmingly consented theme.
“Operation Cast Lead, came as a direct response to Hamas terror”
No, the dreidel turkey shoot was planned in advance to reestablish the IDF as
a mighty power it’s better off not to mess with after the IDF lost its prestige
in Lebanon; Israel was suppose to significantly lift the misery of its occupation
but instead allowed in only a small fraction of basic life needs, much less then
was allowed in before–in short the Hamas terror was instigated by Israel as pretext for its planned turkey shoot.
So Israel was shooting the rockets at themselves? were they Shin Bet agents dressed as members of Hamas, who were infiltrated into Gaza to reign down rockets on themselves?
Citizen, Chaos, etc. I have a serious question for you guys, are the Palestinians/Hamas/PA/Arab countries/etc responsible for anything which has transpired over the last 60 years?
So yonira, the Palestinians have been depriving themselves of the basic necessities of life for 40 plus years? Everyday they pray for more phosporus rain and no crayons or paper?
Richard,
It might be possible to make the argument that remorse for and conversion from past actions ( I am not at all convinced that we really have either in Olmert’s case) should be taken into consideration when holding someone accountable for their actions.
But that’s the kind of decision that a jury and a sentencing judge make. It’s no substitute for accountability.
Do you agree that Olmert is culpable in war crimes, just as those responsible for planning attacks on Israeli civilians are culpable for war crimes? Do you think that those responsible for planning attacks on Israeli civilians should be given high paying speaking gigs at universities and in ballrooms?
It is a significant change on his part to reject likud and their thesis that the land from river to sea is Israel.
——————————
I hear Osama Bin Laden has decided to join Lashkar e Taiba who are waaaaay more moderate than al-Qaeda.
There is NO difference between Kadima, Likud, or the former Ma’arach. Is that too hard to digest?
“So Israel was shooting the rockets at themselves? ”
No, when Israel atatcked Gaza, there were no rockets being shot at all, and hadn;t been for 4 months. Israle could not allow the peace to continue becasue as Tzipi Livni, the so called dove, told the world, a long ceasfire was not in Israel’s strategic interests. In other words, Isreal’s leadership would rather have rockets rained down on Sderot than have peace and have to negotiate.
Hitler was comlex, too. he was a vegetarian and was a patron of the arts.
c’mon, witty. give us a break
and he led the Nazi campaign against smoking and loved his dog too–his enlisted man’s winning of the Iron Cross was no small feat either
It’s a great thing to see Olmert labeled as the war criminal he is.
He and a large part of the sickening status-quo audience are happy with Israel’s progress. The old & crusty Zionists in there don’t care about justice.
Some of the youth their really seemed terrified of the protesters. I hope they’ll think twice about the Israeli narrative that we are forced to consume in the news and film.
These groups that stand Up are doing great work. It’s the actions like these, that become the spark for greater progress.
It’s an even greater thing to see the Israeli war criminals getting nervous every time they pack their bags, not knowing when they’ll have to evade an arrest warrant.
Actions like this help add to the pressure. Israeli war criminals should know that there is no place in the world they are safe from justice.
Yep, potsherd, they are very worried they might find themselves in the hot seat in a foreign country.
Pingback: Olmert speaking tour continues to be disrupted by the reality of Gaza | JewPI
Chu, Where terror groups launch 8000 missiles into Israel…and then hide behind women and children….and Israel, who drops warnings from the air and calls them on the phone….is blamed by the UN.
Israel is not even allowed to defend itself according to the left.
Nomi,
Its reasonable to defend against exageration. Its unreasonable to pursue denial.
“drop warnings from the air”.
So, defend yourself. The easiest way, per the Goldstone recommendation and I believe supporting international law, is for Israel to use the report as a basis for an internal investigation.
It is necessary, even for Israelis to avoid the loss of confidence in their military.
Thanks for the assist, Ricard-o. It hard to debate Nomi, with such loose facts and figures. (8000 missiles) Who is not allowing Israel to defend itself ? The lefties, socialists, Goldstone, USA, The UN, God.
Anyway, when was the last time Israel took advise from anyone?
Israel fired 1 million rounds within the first few days of the 2nd intifada (Chomsky Dershowitz debate, I can dig up a source)
so lets play this numbers game
of course ethnocentric jews and zionists will compensate for the lack of FACTS and REALITY on their side by reinforcing superficial Establishment truths while giving it that Jewish twist of emotional blackmail.
that’s the tactic. the same tired tactic.
if Zionism were basketball player, it would only go left.
Chu,
It’s not hard to debate Nomi at all.
Israel fired more shlled into Gaza in 1 year (beginig the say it withdrew from Gaza) than all the rockets fired by Hamas into Israel.
I agree with Nomi998. This one time, this guy attacked me. Well, he threw a rock that missed me. Luckily, I had the right to defend myself, so I torched his house, killed his wife, kids, and dog, and then demolished his neighborhood.
Thank goodness for the right to self-defense. If the left were to take that away, I’d really be in big trouble.
David,
That would have been a good analogy had you added the fact that you had raped his wife before he threw the rock at you.
I see, Nomi998, you have not read the Goldstone Report.
Now it’s 8,000 rockets? Last week it was 5,000. Who was counting, BTW?
For every rocket, Israel has killed a Palestinian.
I think you’re even with them. OK, miss I’m-always-the-victim?
Nomi998 , Israel launched 7,700 shells into Gaza in 12 months alone between 2005 and 2006 and as we saw in Gaza, it was the IDF that were using human shields, not Hamas.
As for dropping warnings from the air and making phone calls, the IRA used ot do that too. I guess that makes the IRA bombings defensible right? Woudl you have prefered that Hams made a call to the residents of Sderot befor firing rocekts at them? Would that have legitmized their attacks?
Last but not least, when a man rapes a woman and she tries to fight back, he doesn’t get to decribe his assault on her as self defense.
Scott, 2 words for you. Palestinian Rejectionism.
link to jpost.com
Olmert: I offered Abbas the best deal ever
Sep 24, 2009
omg BEST DEAL EVAH!!1!11
“Scott, 2 words for you. Palestinian Rejectionism.”
Too funny. The first paragrah begins with:
“Former prime minister Ehud Olmert pleaded with top American officials in an interview taped Wednesday to endorse the far-reaching offer he made to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas as their framework for achieving peace.”
So it was American officials who rejected the offer.
Continuing. The fact that Olmert descibed his offer as “the best deal they were ever and will ever be given” does not mean that the offer was remotely adequate.
He then goes on to add that he woudl have implmented this grand offer, “despite the corruption charges that forced him out of office”. How was he going to achieve it from out of office, or with no control of the Knesset?
The Arabs will settle for nothing less than the elimination of Israel as a Jewish state. They have said so. They have acted so. Fatah was founded BEFORE the 6 Day War, to attack Israel within the 1948 borders. Syria was shelling Israel from the Golan Heights before 1967. Egypt closed the Red Sea to Israeli shipping BEFORE 1967. Hamas is attacking Israel with rockets from land returned to Arab control. Israel will be hated and attacked as long as it exists. To believe otherwise is to deny facts, to not believe the words and actions of the Muslims.
All people have to do is look at the hate infested Palestinian media.
www.pmw.org.il/ -
“If there are 50 righteous men, will you spare the city”?
“Yes”.
“The Arabs will settle for nothing less than the elimination of Israel as a Jewish state. They have said so.”
Gosh, you Israelis do have problems, don’t you? Thank God those aren’t problems for American Jews! Just shows what living as citizens, equals among other citizens, can do for you. You Israelis should try it. You might even like it.
In fact, I often wonder, why is it that where Jews (like me, I’m a Jew) are a tiny minority, they do just fine, and the only thing they suffer from is a mawkish kind of Philo-Semitism (from that, everybody should suffer!) but where Jews are the reigning supremacist majority, they got nothing but problems? With each other and everybody else.
Okay, you can have that question answered by anti-Zionists, or you can have that question answered by “America First” and his sidekick, “Citizen”. Which would you prefer?
You get two choices, think carefully.
My answer is: the test of virtue is power.
One aspect of “the test of virtue is power” regarding Israel is the negative effect of the occupation on Israeli society:
link to peacenow.org
“Israel is bad for the Jews.”
A little friendly advice, Nomi. You should adapt your free-floating hasbara to your audience. Arguments about how nasty the Arabs were before ’67 only work on those (like liberal Zionists) who believe Israel and Zionism were pure as the driven snow before those rotten settlers went and spoiled everything. You will find – if you bother to actually read any of the comments here, instead of just spamming this forum with your irrelevant propaganda – that most of us believe that the problem indeed begins with Zionism itself, and with Israel from ’48 – not ’67. Your arguments about how the conflict started before the Six Day War are therefore little more than straw men.
“Israel will be hated and attacked as long as it exists.”
We know that! It’s the Zionists, with their fantasies of colonial protection extending far into the future who can’t seem to absorb that fact.
When you use the agency of a colonial conqueror (Britain) to insert yourself as a supremacist colony, people hate you, capiche?
You really should study up on all the other colonial efforts by Westerners in the third world, and what happened to them. At least it’ll give you plenty of ammo for your No.4 (The Whole World Sucks)
I agree with both Schmuel and Mooser here.
I have just about had it with this nonsense. Which country did you emigrate from into Israel?
“The Arabs will settle for nothing less than the elimination of Israel as a Jewish state. They have said so.”
More ruibbish.
Even the Hamas leadership has said they support a 2 state solution, one Palestinian and the other Israel. Netenyahu rejects a 2 state solution, while the Palestinians endorse it.
“Syria was shelling Israel from the Golan Heights before 1967.”
That was after Israel atatcked them first. In fact, Israel started the 1967 war.
“Egypt closed the Red Sea to Israeli shipping BEFORE 1967. ”
Which only affetced 5% of shipements to and from Israel, yet Israel declared that blockade an act of war. Ironically, Israel have blockaded 100% of shipments to Gaza for 2 years, and complain that Hamas have responded to this act of war.
“Hamas is attacking Israel with rockets from land returned to Arab control. ”
Rubbish. As Zertal and Akiva Eldar point out, after Israel withdrew its forces from Gaza in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released “for even a single day from Israel’s grip or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay everyday.”
“Israel left behind scorched devastated services and people with neither a present nor a future. The settlements were destroyed. The Jewish settlements in an ungenerous mood by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass its inhabitants by means of its formidable military might” which is exercised with extraordinary savagery always with firm US support and participation.
“Israel will be hated and attacked as long as it exists. ”
That’s like saying the Nazi’s were only hated because they existed, not for what they did.
“All people have to do is look at the hate infested Palestinian media.”
We’ve seem morethan enough of hate infested Israeli education at work.
link to images.google.com.au
David, does this look like throwing rocks?
David believes Israel should negotiate with murderers liket his.
No32A bus, mainly carrying Israeli schoolchildren, Patt junction, Jerusalem
19 dead, 70 injured
Sbarro Pizzeria, Jerusalem
15 dead, 130 injured
Snooker club, Rishon Letzion
15 dead, 55 injured
Student cafeteria, Hebrew University , Jerusalem
10 dead, 85 injured
Park Hotel Passover meal, Netanya
30 dead, 140 injured
Teenagers on pedestrian precinct, Jerusalem
11 dead, 180 injured
No2 bus carrying Jewish worshippers back from the Western wall
23 dead, 130 injured
Shopping precinct, central Jerusalem (triple suicide bombing)
23 dead, 150 injured
Moment café, Jerusalem
11 dead, 54 injured
Shopping centre, Netanya
5 dead, 100 injured
Matza restaurant, Haifa
15 killed, 40 injured
Dolphinarium discotheque, Tel Aviv
21 dead, 120 injured
Port facilities, Ashdod
10 dead, 16 injured
Petrol station, Ariel
3 dead, 20 injured
Beachfront bar, Tel-Aviv
3 dead, 60 injured
Hitchhiking post, Tzfirin
9 dead, 30 injured
Café Hillel, Jerusalem
7 dead, 50 injured
Suicide bombings of Israeli passenger buses
Number 11 bus, Haifa – 16 dead
Number 960 bus, Haifa – 11 dead
Number 361 bus, Meron – 9 dead
Number 4 bus, Tel-Aviv – 6 dead
Number 20 bus, Jerusalem – 11 dead
No 37 bus, Haifa – 17 dead
No 6 bus, Jerusalem – 7 dead
No 14A bus, Jerusalem – 17 dead
No 18 bus, Jerusalem – 49 dead (the same bus route attacked on successive weeks)
Two buses following each other in Beersheva – 16 dead
For Christ’s sake Nomi, you don’t see any significance in the fact that God does not extend His Holy and miraculous protection to the Jews in Israel? You don’t think His words in the Torah about the capacity of the Jews to form a state are worth listening to?
Of course, abandoning any reliance on the protection of the Holy One, (praised be He) is the fundamental sin of Zionism.
Why, I sometimes wonder if Zionists believe in God at all, but that’s a different question.
That’s not what I said at all Nomi. I said you should kill all of their families and their pets. I totally agree with you.
Great work, Nomi. Now include the dates and the other side of casualties and we’ll really get our hands dirty.
The fatalities here, only reaches prior to the Gaza pummeling (Dec 2008).
link to btselem.org
Yeah, Nomi, here let me help you out:
link to counterpunch.org
link to amazon.com
link to youtube.com
obviously the palestinians could use a few black hawks
Or F-16′s. That way, the Zionist stooges could stop complaining about suicide bombing.
In fairness to Israel, it is very difficult to negotiate with suicide bombers.
Seeing as they are dead and all.
Nomi, does this look like self defense?
Qana rocket attack: 106 were killed and around 116 injured
Sabra and Shatilla: 3,500 murdered
Lebanon 2006. 1,300 peope dead.
Gaza 2008/2009: 1,400 killed
David, What do you think Israel should have done, seeing there civilians are being blown to bits by Palestinian suicide bombers, who are deliberately targeting elderly Holocaust survivors at Passover Seders, teenagers in pizza parlours, buses, disco’s, cafe’s and restaurants.
“What do you think Israel should have done, seeing there civilians are being blown to bits by Palestinian suicide bombers, who are deliberately targeting elderly Holocaust survivors at Passover Seders, teenagers in pizza parlours, buses, disco’s, cafe’s and restaurants.”
Obviously, these Palestinians hate you for your freedom to eat so much between dancing and taking buses.
I think Israel was absolutely right. They should have blown up as many Palestinians as possible. In fact, 1400 isn’t enough. There are 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. 1400 is peanuts.
What should Israel have done when, Nomi? You’re really confusing me by firing off all your ammunition at once. I thought we were talking about the massacre in Gaza, which was supposed to have been about rockets fired by Hamas at Sderot and other towns in the Negev, and now you’re talking about all the attacks ever carried out by any Palestinian against Israelis. Was the Gaza massacre supposed to have been about those too?
Yeah, good question, Shmuel. Maybe Nomi is reminding us of this?
link to amazon.com
You read my mind, Citizen, but I figured I’d go easy on her – one question at a time. After all she is outnumbered here.
elderly Holocaust survivors
—————————-
Do you mean like the same Holocaust survivors the Israeli government doesn’t care one bit about, so they live well below the poverty line? THOSE Holocaust survivors?
You sound just like John McCain who speaks so fondly of veterans during his campaign speeches, but then goes and votes against veteran benefits.
Pathetic.
“David, What do you think Israel should have done, seeing there civilians are being blown to bits by Palestinian suicide bombers, who are deliberately targeting elderly Holocaust survivors at Passover Seders, teenagers in pizza parlours, buses, disco’s, cafe’s and restaurants. ”
Oh I dunno, how about giving their land back, stop bulldozing their homes, evicitng hem and using their chidren as taget practice for IDF snipers for a start?
Hamas MP: A Palestinian Who Kills One Jew Will Be Rewarded As If He Killed 30 Million
link to thememriblog.org
MEMRI is the flip side of Al-Qaeda’s pro-hate propaganda coin.
Isn’t MEMRI the same objective analysts who translate Ahmadinejad to mean he wants to destroy Israel?
MEMRI is the outfit that mistranslated, among other things, the Palestinian children’s television program, quoting someone as saying ‘We will annihilate the Jews’ when the correct translation was ‘The Jews are killing us.’
Although MEMRI describes itself as nonpartisan, the institute, which has offices in London, Washington, Jerusalem, and Berlin, has frequently been accused of being nothing more than a propaganda outfit for Israeli intelligence. According to the Guardian, which dug up deleted pages from MEMRI’s website through the internet archive, “Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of MEMRI’s website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three—including Carmon—are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence. Among the other three, one served in the Israeli Army’s Northern Command Ordnance Corps, one has an academic background, and the sixth is a former stand-up comedian” (Guardian, August 12, 2002).
The Guardianalso reported: “Although MEMRI claims that it does provide translations from Hebrew media, I can’t recall receiving any. Evidence from MEMRI’s website also casts doubt on its nonpartisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasizes ‘the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel.’ That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.”
Nomi, bubele Zionists wanted a “State”, a “Jewish State”. Nothing less would satisfy them. States have wars, states kill people, people kill you, it’s a mess.
And that was well known at the time Israel was established:
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
So Israel is playing on the field, national politics, and by the rules they selected.
So stop kvetching! You wanted a state, states have enemies, states have wars. You should have thought of that while Jabotinsky was shooting his mouth off.
You Zionists got EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED!!! Okay? So shut up, and concentrate on making more Israeli babies. If you can keep the girls away from “the Arabs”!
LOL.
=======================
Israeli foreign minister: Israel should blow up the Aswan Dam.
Israeli foreign minister: Fill a bus with Palestinians so that we can drown them in the dead sea.
Prime Minister Menachem Begin:
“Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.” (Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parlament], quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts,” New Statesman, June 25, 1982)
Nomi -
I would like to answer some of your points.
First, you talk about the one-state solution as the “destruction” of Israel. It would entail the end of the Jewish State as we know it, but destruction is a very misleading word, because it implies violence and death. One-state proponents favor a state in which all citizens are equal regardless of their ethnicity or religion, and are free to practice their religion. They hope for a peaceful transformation to such a state. That would mean the end of a state that favors those of Jewish ancestry over others. If you oppose such a state, fine, but state your opposition to equality without resorting to misleadeing words such as “destruction.”
You are outraged over terrorist attacks over the years that have taken many hundreds of Israeli lives. I understand that. But you seem to gullibly swallow the line that Israel’s actions, which have taken many thousands of civilian lives, were all justified, or accidental, or incidental, or whatever. The record is crystal clear that intentionally taking the lives of Arab civilians has been a staple of Israeli policy since the state’s founding, and even before. I would be much more sympathetic to your concern over Israeli lives if you recognized the fault of Israel and its far greater number of casualties.
You wonder what Israel could do in the face of such terror attacks. Are you oblivious to the strangling siege Israel imposed on Gaza? Do you know that there was a cease fire in place in which the rockets virtually stopped for many months; that Israel broke the cease fire on Nov. 4, our election day, and never honored its commitment to lift the siege; that Israel refused to loosen the restrictions on food, water, medicine, fuel entering Gaza; and that Hamas offered to extend the cease fire on condition that Israel ease the blockade? So for starters, Israel could have simply allowed food etc. to enter the strip, but that would have challenged Israel’s self-appointed authority to make millions of human beings miserable. How could Israel give up this cherished “right”? Do you favor collective punishment of millions of Palestinians for the rockets? What about collective punishment of Israelis for their assault on Gaza? Why is the latter terrorism and the former legitimate self-defense? Do you think the perpetual Israeli rule over Palestinians will ever lead to peace?
Nomi,
Your citations of terror crossed groups. Certainly there were more than few Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Al Aqsa Martyrs.
It definitely constructs a basis of distrust. Even using Arafat as a parallel, he clarified that his intention was to reject violence as means (although his definition of violence as means was different than mine), and CERTAINLY Assad and Fayyad are not advocates of violence and over an extended period of time.
Recently, even Hamas has ENFORCED the cessation of rocket fire from Gaza to Sderot and elsewhere in Israel. Not yet a change of heart, nearly certainly a change in tactic.
But, Israel should negotiate with murderers. As Haganah negotiated with Irgun even while they were shooting at each other.
Success at security is constructed NOT by what one is angry about, but by conscientiously designing the means to realize one’s needs for security.
And, that is clearly possible currently, with the Arab League proposal still on the table, with Fatah only temporarily refusing to talk with Netanyahu, with existing treaties with Egypt and Jordan comprising 1/2 of Israel’s potentially exposed frontier, and the willingness of the US to mediate and hopefully bridge divides more forcefully.
Netanyahu is currently “succeeding” at unraveling the peace agreements with Jordan, Egypt, and the PA. If there is any action that would confirm that Israel needs to adopt a fortress approach to its security, it is that potential exposure of 350 additional miles of frontier.
In contrast, a treaty defining boundaries at or near the green line that facilitates a viable Palestine, is FAR FAR more likely to result in Israeli security than agitation to the point of resumption of war with current treaty partners.
What one fears provides information only. To act on one’s angers usually results in failure. It is NOT a successful military attitude. And, it is certainly not a successful path to civilian well-being, let alone acceptance by other states, or economic free trade zone.
I think someone needs to confiscate Nomi’s copy of 1001 Hasbara Talking Points.
LOL. Do you think we scared her off, or is she on her Sabbath break?
Please don’t confiscate it – Nomi is a novice – still has 950 pages to go.
She could at least get an updated edition.
“It’s Gettin’ Hard Out Here for a War Criminal”
“Poor Ehud Olmert. Being a world-renowned war criminal just isn’t what it used to be.”
link to endtheoccupationblog.blogspot.com
or, “Pimpin’ ain’t easy”
Hey, speaking of pimpin; anyone notice Bush Jr is now out on the lucrative Power-of-positive-thinking circuit, right up there with the best of those idiots? I guess his wife must have pushed him to quit lazin’ around the ranch; she’s been on the circuit for awhile. Carter builds home for the poor and risks his reputation bringing up the Israeli occupation, and Shub takes a shot at rolling in the dough by a magic show at the local carnival.
First Bushie gets ‘em amped, then they go out and convince people to buy their crappy products. It’s how the world works, Citizen. When I become rich and famous I want to be a motivational speaker, too. I’m gonna tell those people that nothing can stop them but their own conscience. So throw it in the dirt and stomp on it, and let’s go make some money! Yee-ha!
Pingback: 22 Bay Area residents arrested for disrupting former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s speech – Bay Area Campaign to End Israeli Apartheid
Anyone know what Olmert’s tour schedule is?
Pingback: Should I Use Tanning Lotion When Tanning? | Tanning Beauty Wisdom