The Goldstone report is not an abstraction for me. My delegation was in Gaza at the same time as Judge Richard Goldstone was last June. We saw things that he also saw. I used the word "persecution" at the time; so has he now. One day human-rights-worker Fares Akram brought my group to a house in Beit Lahiya in the north of Gaza. He wanted to show us the hole in the roof made by a white phosphorus shell. It was smaller than a manhole, and throughout the apartment building the walls were still blackened and the studs charred.
The matriarch in that house was Sabah Abu Halima, 45. Today she is a psychological wreck. In the few instants in which the long tentacles of white phosphorus were trapped in her house, she lost her husband, three sons, and her only daughter. Relief workers from the Palestinian Children’s Relief Fund say that Sabah is plagued by "nightmares and deep feelings of sadness."
Sabah also lost a daughter-in-law. The woman, whose name I don’t know, died in Egypt, being treated for her burns after the war. When this woman whose name I don’t know died, her badly-burned daughter was alongside her: 3-year-old Farah Abu Halima. The Egyptian hospital sent the girl back to Gaza before long, not fully treated. Her picture is below. An uncle is holding her. Farah is also psychologically damaged. She can’t remove her fingers from her mouth when people come to visit, and she clings to her uncle.
Our group saw Farah clinging to her uncle in the charred house, and we saw the horrible spectacle that her uncle is about to present in the image above. He takes off her pants– or lifted her dress, when we were there– to show the third-degree burns on Farah’s legs. Her face is also burned, under her chin, and her hand too. You can see the burns on her abdomen.
"I felt so many conflicting things," our delegation’s leader, Felice Gelman, later told me. "The idea that a little child like that had been in constant pain for months– that was unimaginable to me…. And I know what happens to people with untreated burns. The older she grows, the more deformed she will become. And the idea that the only way that anyone could do anything for her was to display her. It was horrible."
Gelman speaks for me and the other 11 members of our delegation. As I left the house, I shoved all my money into the uncle’s hand. (A friend back here had given me $200, to use as I saw fit.) As Gelman left she made a commitment to do what she could for Farah Abu Halima. "I will try to get help." Gelman got back and called Steve Sosebee, the head of the Palestinian Children’s Relief Fund in Kent, Ohio; and Sosebee has thrown himself into the case. Those scars are contracting Farah’s body. They are already deforming her development. She needs surgeries, many. She needs psychological help, an escape from the blackened shell of a house where she still lives.
Sosebee has been trying to get Farah out for months. Next week, maybe, or maybe the week after– he is crossing his fingers– he thinks she might get a visa into Egypt, along with three other children, two of them with war injuries, who need treatment. And maybe then they will finally get to the U.S. Four children were gotten out in September in this way. The Egyptians finally let them go (the Israeli border– you can’t get anything across there). And of those four, the two teenage amputees are already back in Gaza. Two others are still here, including a ten-year-old, continuing vascular surgery for shrapnel wounds.
There’s an NGO with a chapter in San Diego that has said it will treat Farah Abu Halima for free there, Doctors Offering Charitable Services (DOCS). Sosebee has been at this 20 years, getting children out of Palestine for treatment, or teams of doctors into the occupied territories. He has gotten treatment for 1000 Palestinian children. It is his way of addressing the core injustice behind the conflict. He couldn’t command sympathy for adults under occupation, or even get them treatment. But the children, that is different. And 300 children were killed in the Gaza slaughter, and many many more injured.
Farah will need months of surgeries, and steady psychological assessment. Her grandmother would be the natural relative to accompany her, but the grandmother is a wreck. An aunt will come with her. (Farah is dependent on her uncle, but Sosebee’s fund has learned that they can’t bring Arab men into the U.S. for a number of reasons.)
A lot of people are now pushing to get Farah out. Gelman, Sosebee, even Salam Fayyad, the Palestinian P.M. in the West Bank, he understands the urgency of the case. Those who are reading this, you might call the State Department, to remind them about this little girl.
Sosebee has another agenda. He hopes that if Farah gets to San Diego, there will be media coverage of her case, and an American community will learn about how she was so grievously injured. "Our media is not showing this. If she comes here and people see this, it educates people and that is a positive thing. It gives the San Diego community a chance to be involved, and to help a child," Sosebee says.
Today the U.S. is in official denial, enabled by our media, about such basic assertions of the Goldstone report as its uncontradicted allegation that the Israelis, in a war crime, used white phosphorus in civilian areas. Farah Abu Halima is living proof of that. If we can heal her maybe we can start to heal ourselves.
Related posts:
- Farah abu Halima, victim of white phosphorus attack, is on her way to California
- ‘Almost every Palestinian I met in Gaza believes that Israel’s recent attack will only be followed by another bloodier and more deadly attack on Gaza that will exterminate the Palestinians once and for all.’
- I told my congressman, ‘keep the child’s picture in your desk and look at it the next time there’s a vote on Gaza’
- National Lawyers Guild says one Israel soldier shot three sisters, executing the 2- and 7-year-old, and paralyzing the 4-year-old
- Gaza a year ago: My father says the Israelis are doing this to win an election
{ 200 comments }
You think this is bad? My Mom told me about a phony plastic surgeon who set himself up in Miami Beach, had a bunch of phony degrees and certificates, and proceded to botch many rhinoplasties before he was caught and prosecuted. The man was a butcher!
What’s the matter with you, Mooser? If you want to be a comic, rent a hall.
RE: “If you want to be a comic, rent a hall.”
MY COMMENT: Party pooper!
It’s in terrible taste, isn’t it? Sorry. It’s important to keep things in the proper perspective, and I just can’t seem to do it.
Don’t knock Mooser too hard. He’s one of the good guys and frankly, he’s pointing out one of the big hypocrisies in our joined-at-the-hip-with-Israel American society.
Really? Mooser’s comment is more infantile than reading that book about the daily suffering and courange of American GIs in Iraq, Good Soldiers–the author was recently interviewed on the Charlie Rose show, or joking about the foibles of underarm deodorant; nearly as misdirected as when Israel recently equated the
Goldstone Report with that unfunny (jewish) comic’s film rendition of that eastern European (gentile) country that was the talk of the town a year or so ago. With jokes like Mooser’s who needs cancer?
Citizen, you mean Borat (Cohen)?
Anything can be the butt of a good old Mooser joke: Zionism, anti-Zionism, wars, suffering, jews, gentiles….anything is fair game.
Oh, except for when he senses what he deems to be “anti-semitism.” Then he gets real serious. Fascinating.
Yeah Borat-Cohen. That’s who I meant.
Sorry, but anyone who doesn’t get Mooser’s satire here should go to an all-American pie, Joe Sixpack pro-Israul blog and see what kind of sympathy this poor little girl would get by comment linking to this story. The very best you’d get would be a No4 (Everything sucks!), the worst elements would blame UNWRA ‘for not putting the Pseudostinians out of their misery!’ No kiddin’.
Mark ‘Iffie Ozzie’ Regev will probably claim the wounds were caused by white icing sugar…
“the daily suffering and courange of American GIs in Iraq, “
Attacking a lightly armed, mostly civilian insurgents, and beating up or killing women and children is “suffering and courange” (sic) Gosh, if it wasn’t for that damned second-hand anti-semitism, you’d make a great Zionist! And you will, one day. I mean, you gotta decide, who’s more of a threat, Zionists, or Muslim Terrorists? I think the choice is obvious to any Citizen which believes in America Foist!
Mooser, you think the GIs over there have no courage, that they are just baby killers?
How cheap and smug of you; you never served and I bet nobody you hang out with ever did either. Since you are so ignorant of the typical life of a GI over there is and has been for 8 years, I suggest you read this book, which covers the subject very
well:
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Soldiers-David-Finkel/dp/0374165734
I don’t think you have a problem with perspective, Mooser. I think humor can be a way of dealing with a phenomenon that evokes a variety of intense emotions; and in this case, not many of those emotions are good.
Nice to see you posting again.
Well, he does sometimes, and he doesn’t other times. But what they hey, he is half Jewish by his own admission and the rest he’s told us is an animal, a moose if you will-something like Bullwinkle perhaps-he’s actually pretty Jewish orthodox in his unique self-described blend of exceptionalism.
Yeah, I’m one of the ones backing Mooser, bad taste or not. What’s really funny about his comment is that I can fully imagine hearing his response from one of the retired bubbelehs in my neighborhood. As if the two events were synonymous.
That’s not hard to imagine for anyone with personal experience with such bubbelehs,
same as it’s not hard to imagine Granny in Beverly Hillbillies from anyone who ever
actually lived with such people. There’s pros and cons to both cookie cutter characters, of course. The Poles have their immigrant bubbelehs also–no more, no less…
Citizen, before you criticise my jokes, you need to actually “get” them! I thought you said (forgive me if I’m wrong) that you were married to a Jewish women? (Well, I hope so, anyway) At any rate, if you are, just read my jokes to her, and she can explain them to you.
But what they hey, he is half Jewish
I’m all Jew, %100 percent Jewy Jew-Jew, and I would advise you not to forget it, schmuck. And I trace this Jewish ancestry all the way back to my parents, and our relatives. Beyond that, well, what can I say, it’s a crazy mixed up world, and who knows what a Jewish girl has to do to get by, or what a Jewish guy might do in this crazy, mixed up world where we were chased all over and persecuted.
But as far back as my parents, I know I’m all Jew.
And the former boy friend my mother moved in with right after my father’s untimely death was Jewish, too, so don’t get any strange ideas. I mean, it’s got to be one of them, right?
And those aren’t palmate antlers, it’s a big Menorah!
Mooser, I did as you suggested and my wife said you were a schmuck. She said nothing about you is large.
“Mooser, I did as you suggested and my wife said you were a schmuck. She said nothing about you is large.”
Well, she oughta know, hah hah!
But damn, Mrs. Citizen, what happened to our Jewish hive-mind? No wonder they always warned us against intermarriage, it plays hell with your sense of humor.
Not at all Goosey, my jewish wife laughed very hard–at you, at your schmucky inflated sense of your self. I tried to defend you, even mentioned you were leader
of a jewish motorcycle gang. She chuckled about that for days.
You know, at first I didn’t care much for Mooser’s ‘joke’ but it really is getting annoying. It’s not funny, it’s lame. This isn’t a laughing matter. Especially when this blog is being trolled by scumbags like Michael L./carnas/OhioJoes who will insult injured children of Gaza and actually mean it.
RE: “The Goldstone report is not an abstraction for me.”
FACEBOOK GROUP – “Richard J. Goldstone: Integrity Personified”
> Name – Richard J. Goldstone: Integrity Personified
> Category – Common Interest, Beliefs & Causes
> Description – A group for individuals who admire and respect Justice Goldstone. (In 2009 Justice Goldstone led an independent fact-finding mission created by the United Nations Human Rights Council to investigate international human rights and humanitarian law violations related to the Gaza War.)
> LINK – http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=152832719154
You were a witness to suffering.
Did you read the Bradley Burston article?
“You were a witness to suffering”
A witness! A witness! I’m a victim, Richard. You should see what he did to my schnoz! And I told you about the drunk mohel right? Now you know why I couldn’t marry a Jewish girl.
Wait-a-minute, Richard, you aren’t giving us a No.3 (You Suck), are you?
So Phil was a “witness to suffering” and he didn’t stop the Occupation?
So now he’s responsible, too?
Ge, how do you say “Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil, and See no Evil” in modern Hebrew, Richard? Cause that’s your motto when it comes to Israel.
Give Witty a break, Mooser–maybe he wasn’t as lucky as you, maybe he’s fully cut and you are the partially cut accident? A bit of foreskin can make a material difference, don’t you know? All physical material makes a difference; I never heard
of a brain without a body, have you? Of course we all know the converse is a major
debate for Christian fundies, for whom the unsafe Harley keeps on riding without the driver forever.
Partially “cut”? I wish! I told you the man was drunk! (on schlivovitz of all things) No, he went at it with a sawz-all! My Dad thought he was getting a hell of a deal, and my Mom, well, you know what they’re like. She was delighted!
Do you know what it’s like to be jeered at by young children at a church playground? Happens to me every time I open my raincoat!
Why the hell aren’t mohels state certified?
Sorry, sorry, I have no desire to drag this thread off-topic.
“A bit of foreskin can make a material difference, don’t you know?”
It has a function, perhaps not the most important, vital function in the human body, but it has a function. Or I can just spend the rest of my life with a vaseline-filled yamulke over my schlong (Or maybe I should call it a “schlort“?)
Witty! I thought maybe you’d left. I was beginning to think you hadn’t seen these stories.
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/update-palestinian-human-rights-activist-being-held-without-charges-in-indefinite-solitary-confinement.html
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/israel-to-palestinians-if-you-want-a-normal-life-forget-the-goldstone-report.html
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/idf-ethics-advisor-on-civilian-casualties-whoever-stayed-in-gaza-let-the-blood-be-on-his-head.html
Hang on, there’s a few more…
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/israel-to-palestinians-if-you-want-a-normal-life-forget-the-goldstone-report.html
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/in-the-occupied-territories-jewish-holidays-mean-lockdown-for-palestinians.html
I mean, you’ve barely offered any commentary at all on these articles (on most of them, absolutely none). I’m curious to see if you still hold the belief that Israel is a just and fair state that intends to police its own crimes after reading these.
I mean, it’s only fair to ask you to address these articles before you go veering off into some other Burston article.
Richard, what happened to your statements about being a progressive an all? This is what you have to a child who has been horribly scarred from white phosphorous? I guess talk is cheap when it comes from you.
Potsherd, no matter what I do, I’ll never be half the comic that Witty is.
Yeah but Witty’s one of those obscure, barely funny comics that only elicits a few snickers from the back of the room. You know, the kind that make jokes in Latin or makes references to 1950’s movies? I like to think of you as the George Carlin of Mondoweiss, Mooser. :)
But at least you know the audience is laughing with you (more or less) while Witty’s
audience is laughing at him–when they are not crying. Laughing and crying, that’s the ticket. You try to instruct with a “funny” message, Witty tries to instruct. We all know
you are not the pizza eater surfer dude in Fast Times at Ridgemont High; actually
you couldn’t be if you tried, which you do; OTH Witty is very much the teacher in that movie, only more so. And so, the audience is crucial, no? I just came back from
visiting one of my nephews, he lost his legs and one arm in Iraq. He reminds me
of the Palestinian kids. He’s still full of hope for the future. Me? I whine if I
have to drive a mile to the gym.
“I just came back from
visiting one of my nephews, he lost his legs and one arm in Iraq.”
That’s awful. A terrible waste. What on earth convinced him to put his health or even his life in Bush-Cheney’s hands? COuldn’t you convince him that “Jewish media figures who encourage interacial relationships” were the real enemy?
No, he’s a victim of USA institutionalized hasbara; but I did tell him not to worry, saying to him, “Hey, it could be worse, at least you’re not circumsized!”
“No, he’s a victim of USA institutionalized hasbara;”
That’s what I figured you would say. Right on schedule, too. Amazing how that whole War on Iraq thing was so sucessful when it was an all-Jewish event. I would have thought there wasn’t enough of us. No doubt the officer which chose the route his truck took and said intelligence told him was safe, was a Jew, or rather, a Hasbara institutionalist, too.
Face it, bub, you’re an anti-semite. You are a racist, and since you can’t ever have your own race be responsible for something bad, it must be the Jews, excuse me, the Hasbarists, which are at fault.
Hey, did they force your nephew to be part of that big conversion push, the ones where they shipped over a whole bunch of Torahs and tried to convert Iraqis to Judaism? Wasn’t it big Jewish Rabbis who said that Iraq would be prime ground for converting people to Judaism. Wasn’t he the same one who said “The Jewish God is bigger than your God” Oops, excuse me, that was Christians, wasn’t it?
You are one sad case. I hope a nice teabag helps, it can be so soothing.
Yep, that’s me a racist. Goosey, check out that other article shown on the front page of The Nation along with Phil’s article. I guess that author is a racist too.
I really don’t know whether to cry, or punch holes in the wall, although anger is my standard emotional response. My son is regularly seen at Children’s Hospital here in Boston, and I plan on finding out what charitable programs the hospital offers, and whether such programs include the treatment of children from high conflict areas. For all the carping on about this tragedy or that outrage, it’s easy to forget this isn’t a hypothetical exercise.
You are dead on. Way to easy to forget, or even really comprehend beyond logic. How many commenters here have a human family dog in the fight on the rim of current
USA foreign policy? I mean a family member you know personally who has been part of your life?
My son is regularly seen at Children’s Hospital
I suspect a lot of sadness and resignation behind that comment.
Me too. We’re losing, you know. And in a fight against mostly lightly armed civilians, women and children.
Ah well, Citizen, quite a change from the heady days of 2003 and 4.
Damn that “institutionalised hasbara“!
Goosey, I never voted for any Bush. I was against Shrub’s attack on Iraq before it started. You know nothing about me yet write as if you do. Your jokes and snide comments are really weak. Did you ever graduate grade school?
thanks for this story Phillip. So many innocent people killed, injured psyches destroyed in this cycle of violence
And no one wants to see the pictures or do what they can about it
Show the pictures
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/9778
Everyones respponse was emotional and sympathetic, even Mooser’s in his own way, but all Witty could do was write a one-liner: you were a witness to suffering.
Cold, calculated response to a little childs suffering. But when it comes to fucking Sderot or some other shitty place in Israel and Palestinian violence, watch how emotional he gets.
Yeah, but even in the case of Sderot it’s crocodile tears. It’s not like he cares about the fact that those children were brought by their parents to live on the veritable grave of an ethinically cleansed Palestinian village — and so close to the Gaza border that the IDF “must” enforce a kill radius within Palestinian territory for “self defense.”
He cares about as much about the children of Sderot as the Israeli government. And that attitude is immortalized in David Ben-Gurion’s words:
“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
We can see how much you care about the children of Sderot. If it’s not their fault they’re being bombarded by rockets, then it must be their parents’ fault. Let’s follow your logic: the killing of Derrion Albert in Chicago’s South Side must be his parents’ fault since they decided to live in a dangerous neighborhood.
If my parents moved me into a newly built home that was built by razing an African American neighborhood, and then supported police brutality against those displaced African Americans who had everything taken from them so that my parents could live in a gated community, then I would blame my parents.
Compared to the children of Gaza, the children of Sderot have it easy. Hell, compared to the children of inner city America, the children of Sderot have it easy.
If anyone is to blame for the state of the children of Sderot, it’s the government of Israel, which refused to agree to a ceasefire with Hamas. Their priorities were clear, and it’s clear that, to them, the children of Sderor are expendable.
Not to forget that they make a great exhibit on the propaganda tour for visiting dignitaries that Israel operates.
That’s a good point, potsherd — Israel feels safe enough to bring everyone and their grandma with political or diplomatic clout to Sderot if they come to Israel. It’s become like a propagandistic equivalent of Israel’s Disneyland. “See! The terrible suffering of the children of Sderot! Feel their pain! Take pictures! Tell your friends! Buy a t-shirt!”
And in the meantime within a couple of kilometers you have the IDF shooting anything that moves just within the Gaza side of the border.
I’m telling you, Witty was pulling a No.3 (You Suck). Phil was “witness to suffering”, see, so now it’s his (Phil’s) responsibility, and what has he done? So Phil Sucks, so why can’t the Israelis suck just as much?
Isn’t it pretty apparent that Witty finally, finally accepted that No.1 (Israel Rocks) and No.2 (Arabs Suck) aren’t selling here, so he’s leaning real hard on Nos. 3 and 4.
See: http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html for an explanation of the Hasbara kaballah
Sderot tragically illustrates the similarity between the Israeli government and its American counterpart. Outspending the rest of the world on “national defense,” but the people still have to live in fear. There’s plenty of money for F-16s and F-22s but always insufficient resources for actual disaster prevention and relief.
A town as small as Sderot, with hardly any major industry, could probably be relocated if the safety of its residents were most important. In fact, one Israeli billionaire has already built a tent city for Sderot refugees. (Once the rockets have ceased he should re-open it as a theme park called “The Palestinian Experience.”)
But Sderot seems much more valuable to the Israeli state, who coordinates propaganda visits there, as a modernized Holocaust re-enactment drama, justifying Israeli war crimes, than as a normal, non-militarized community.
Imagine Witty’s change of tune if his son was a GI in Iraq or Afghanistan, or even
an IDF trooper. Imagine if he was ever a GI. He could not write the way he writes.
It’s like those people who arose to defend the movie maker who don’t have their own 13 yr old daughter, or at least had one. Nothing like reality to impinge on (often only partially recognized) ideology. Mind if I fuck up the ass, little girl? Not to worry,
I’ll stick and cry.
Citizen, you might be surprised, but very few Jews rape underage girls anally! I’ve only done it a time or two, myself.
But I really should be nicer to you, Citizen. I see you as a potential convert. You’ve got that lachrymose self-righteousness and self-pity just right.
See you in schul brudda!
Oh, you mean he was a jew? I like some jews, e.g., the one who wrote Good Soldiers.
I even like a few non-jews, some even in my own family–well at least a little.
Paragraphs 786-799, 808-819, and 886-897 of the Goldstone Report.
I’m not aware the whole report is available, where can we find it? I sent the executive summary pdf file of 25 pages or so to this blog very recently.
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf
Thanks, MRW; much appreciated.
Thank you Galensword for the reference. Thank you MRW for the link. The reading is grim indeed; it apalls as it enrages. No wonder the Israelis fear it so; it shows them for what they are. Murderers of civilians. Murderers of children. Ethnic Cleansers.
FPM
I am a witness to suffering. I want to be a witness to justice. I move the war crime investigations of Israel’s leadership begin immediately, with the same protocols used for the Nuremberg Trials.
I want to be a witness to justice.
That says it all.
You mean prosecutionary sandbagging of documents, absence of the Anglo-American rules of evidence and forensic evidence? Etc? Cameras roling for the world to see?
, absence of the Anglo-American rules of evidence and forensic evidence?
Damn that Louis Brandeis and that legal hot-dog Frankfurter! They replaced the “Anglo-American” rules of evidence with Jewish mysticism and numerology!
Wow, it’s easy to see how your family got into George Bush’s army. You have a real predilection for canards. I would say it’s a compulsion. Please, Citizen, never stop quacking.
Mooser,
I’m not surprised you are worried about the rise of anti-semitism. You find it where it isn’t even implied. If you study the Nuremburg trials you’ll find that a lack of Anglo- American rules of evidence is one of the serious flaws of the trials.
But don’t let reality prevent you from crying “anti-semitism” when you really don’t understand the point being made . And while you’re at it, why not throw a few stereotypes around about fellow posters. That’s always a good way to show your “principled” stand against stereotypes.
I think he’s saying it was victor’s justice and a media stunt, not sorcery, horns, midnight rituals, and the other images you think Gentiles have of Jews.
I admit I don’t see the anti-Semitism in the criticisms, but haven’t been jamming fresh batteries into my sensor every day before hitting the web. And keeping one’s anti-Semitism detector on 24 hours at full strength–as we all should do–uses a lot of juice.
“That’s always a good way to show your “principled” stand against stereotypes”
Are you quoting me? “principled”? Well if you’re not, you should be. And I’m not sure if it’s “principles, or simply technical snobbery, but I never could stand those all-in-one units.
“I’m not surprised you are worried about the rise of anti-semitism.”
Okay, when I was a kid, I used to whine at my Dad (like when I asked for a sports-car for my Bar-Mitzvah present) “Dad, I’m serious!!” And he would always reply (bless him) :”Okay, I’ll be Roebuck, and we can start a store!” So maybe that old stereotype about Jewish business instincts is true! But let’s be serious! Yes, I dread the rise of anti-Semitism in the US., a place which has been mercifully free of it. But at the same time, I have come to the conclusion that any positive change in America’s relationship with Israel (that is, a change towards, at least, not supporting Israel’s criminal policies with unlimited money, for a start.) will probably come about as the consequence of increased anti-semitism, and probably not too much else.
Like I say, I expect the debate over a change in policy towards Israel to be on just about the same level (why would it differ?) as the debates around our recent and immensely consequential foreign policy decisions.
But that doesn’t mean I have to sit still for it here, and not make some noise when it comes up. And if the person pleads ignorance well, I guess it’s their chance to learn what anti-Semitism is. They should take advantage of it.
After all, you won’t get it from Phil, he’s much too invested in certain of the stereotypes.
Not to mention the rejection of “tu quoque.”
I voted for Ron Paul, never for any Bush, nor did any of my sibs or my parents. Most of my extended family knows enough not to be hasbara cannon fodder; we are busy picketing
recruiting stations in the malls across the USA,but it’s a hard job since we keep
meeting kids tired of making McDonald’s burgers. How about that hot-dog Morgenthau? For anyone actually interested, especially considering the issues
with our own military courts these days regarding our foreign prisoners and the Goldstone Report now sitting at the UN anticpating a trial of Israeli war criminals, At Nuremberg, Ex Post facto laws were prosecuted, and the trials were explicitly bound by “non-technical rules of evidence” –the Nuremberg trials and their progeny admitted hearsay, rumor, documents of dubious authenticity (especially tons of witness affidavits), as well as coerced testimony and confession. Defendants were deprived of their right not to incriminate themselves and to face the witnesses against them. Piles of documents were given to the defense only a day or so before they would be presented by the prosecution, etc. Detailed information is easily available on the internet.
This information is not new. Here’s a start regarding what was wrong with the Nuremberg Trials, written back in 1948:
http://www.fredautley.com/pdffiles/book01.pdf
(Go to Chps 6 & 7).
BTW, Mooser, I prefer Wicca to Kabbalah, if I have to choose–I like the costumes better.
“… it’s their chance to learn what anti-Semitism is.”
I’ll be looking forward to this. I for one have often wondered. It’s like a seed of evil, planted in the hearts of Gentiles by G-d, right?
Mooser said, “Okay, when I was a kid, I used to whine at my Dad (like when I asked for a sports-car for my Bar-Mitzvah present) .”
And that has what to do with Mooser’s conviction that nothing will stop Israel’s
land grabbing and ethnic cleansing unless the brake includes “anti-semitism?”
Is Mooser alluding to shy people bringing up the track’s of PNAC, a list of the neocon
leaders in government, both elected and appointed, those in influential foreign policy think tanks and the media?
No, Mooser says he’s just joking about stereotypes about jewish business practices.
Does he mean, Greenspan, Geitner (sic), Bernake, Rich, who? The leaders of Goldman Sachs? Madoff? Sears and Robebuck? Incidentally, I never whined to give
me a sportscar for any of my accomplishments, growing up. The reason is simple,
because my Dad always told us, ” If you want something, go get it–this is America,
go earn the money to buy whatever you want! That’s when I learned the attributes
of various types of people–I had two big paper routes at the age of eight. Some of my subscribers were not demanding, but always paid on time; others were very demanding, and seldom paid on time. Just a fact of my life. Aren’t there always general rules, and exceptions to those rules, which operate to prove those rules
by their very exceptional status. Of course a true humanist never applies a double standard, yes?
Heartbreaking.
=========================
” Aren’t there always general rules, and exceptions to those rules, which operate to prove those rules
by their very exceptional status.”
Logic like that? Yes, it is.
Farah is dependent on her uncle, but Sosebee’s fund has learned that they can’t bring Arab men into the U.S. for a number of reasons.
This is what gets to me. This child needs her uncle. Does he look like he would threaten the USA?
[For that matter, does a group of Taliban? I dont care how wacky religious they are, but I have a difficult time accepting that a bunch of guys running around in robes, fanatically religious, are a major threat to the Army, Marines, Air Force, and alphabet intel agencies of the USA. Then our military dont know what they are doing.]
should be: doesn’t know what its doing.
Multiply it by a million.
“Never again”?
Hey, former coMMenter, you don’t seem to be so “former” lately.
Just a few more swings of the axe, brother. The tree’s already leaning.
Her uncles eyes look so pleading. And defeated. I feel guily looking at that picture because there’s nothing I can do.
My daughter hurt her finger in the doorway today. When I saw her break out in a sweat from the pain-and her screams-I wished my finger would have gotten crushed in the doorway. I can’t imagine how I would feel if she went through what this little child is suffering.
I want to be a witness to justice, too.
When?
I can’t sleep. I’ve reead this 10 times today. I’m tired but I can’t sleep. I am livid at the world. I am so angry.
Witty, you coward. Where are you? Have you looked at her uncles eyes? Are you going to tell him zionisim is good? That all this happened to his neice because israel had to flex its muscle to keep reminding Gazans that their life is controlled by the state with the most moral army in the world?
I know. I remember when Operation Cast Lead first happened. It’s hard for me to admit but… it really did affect me in a big way. That’s actually the worse that my depression got in a long, long time.
Is it bad that I got “acclimated?” I want to think the answer is no. My rationale is that, while the emotional impact has dropped below crippling levels, the intellectual impact has diminished. I no longer need to shut myself in a room to hide my reaction from others, but the moral outrage is still there. And without the weight of the depression, I have energy to channel into trying to make a difference.
You don’t need to ignore the pain, Saleema, or pretend like it goes away but trust that some how, you will find a way to cope with it on some level. And take that fire and do something useful with it. You have it in you and believe me, it helps. It helps both you, and the Palestinians.
Goering use to crack this (one of his many “jokes”):
What’s the difference between a Brit and a German?
I dunno, what?
A Brit is soft on the outside and hard on the inside–
And a German is hard on the outside but soft on the inside.
When was the last time you looked in the eyes of one of the members of the Zer-Aviv family, after 5 of their members were killed when a freak of nature decided to detonate herself among women and children?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_restaurant_suicide_bombing
Are you going to tell them Palestinian violence is good? Let me guess: you’re going to justify it by pointing to Israeli actions. Which means we’re back at square one.
You don’t seem to care at all that this article is about a Palestinian child who was horribly burned by white phosphorous was hurled by the IDF under orders by the government.
See, that’s the difference. Like you said, the Palestinian violence you cite is a “freak of nature” — it’s one person pushed over the edge of desperation who get’s their hands on some explosives. The result is a handful of people die.
Contrast that with Israel’s actions — the full force of a nation with one of the most well funded militaries in the world. Hundreds of children died. Thousands more were left permanently scarred. And they have been deprived of schools, hospitals, mosques, police, their parents are denied their jobs and even the homes that they built painstakingly for their familes.
How many Israelis have lost even half as much as the average Palestinian family, carnas?
Israel has left the Palestinians no other choice but violence.
They have gone to the UN, which ruled in their favor. Israel ignores the resolutions.
They have gone to the Israeli courts, which have sometimes ruled in their favor, but the IDF ignores the rulings. Have you noticed that the wall is still in place around Bil’in?
They have tried nonviolent protest, and Israel replies only with violence and force and imprisonment.
They have tried peace negotiations, but Israel refuses to concede Palestinian land.
Even after promising to freeze settlement construction in the West Bank, Israel has flouted the promise and continued to build.
No day passes without Israeli violence against Palestinians, without raids, arrests, killings, beatings, checkpoints, evictions, house demolitions. And they have no recourse. No way to stop it.
You go put on a keffiah and try living as a Palestinian for a year, in the occupied terrritories. See if you can refrain from violence.
exactly, carnas, back to square one:
Does Zionism have a right to exist as a prejudicial state?
Going back to square one would mean Israel returns to its borders of 1947. If Israel were to remove itself to those borders, violence against its citizens would be greatly reduced. That Israel does not observe its legal borders and continuously expands its territory with military aggression, then putting families in harm’s way in settlements built on the frontiers, indicates Israel’s leadership prefers conflict to peace even for its own citizens.
You are exactly right Carnas! The Palestinians must use violence. A pretty much hopeless and Israel-serving course, and suicidal, given their resources.
It’s the United States which can stop the violence by reducing or eliminating the support for Israel which makes it inevitable.
But then again, I’m sure that when Christians like America-fust-cless and Citizen enable a theocratic government which makes the Jews (we’re all “unshriven and unnannealed” and WS Gilbert said in “Penzance”) second class citizens, you’ll be happy! Won’t you be happy when the US is just like Israel?
Ah, yes, Carnas (is that a derivative of “Carnage”?) force-feeds us the Israeli exceptionalism, the same Semitic-supremacism that permitted the savage killing of 1400 Palestinians vs. 13 IDFers (100 eyes for an eye).
Given: the Maxim suicide bombing was an atrocity, but it is not a moral equivalent or justification for the collective punishment in Gaza. Nor is it in any way relevant to the need for us to get this 3-year-old to the United States for treatment immediately.
As the Goldstone Report winds its way to the UN Security Council, we are reminded of the arrogance of the Israeli position, where hasbara such as “we have the right to defend ourselves” or “the IDF is the most moral army in the world” cannot be spun around the facts on the ground. Israel attacked civilians as a central goal of Operation Cast Lead, a form of collective punishment intended to punish innocents for democratically electing Hamas. As we now know, the Israeli government took the Winograd Commission report on the ill-fated attack on Lebanon, and the only thing they took from it was to minimize IDF casualties.
This is the end-result. War crimes and crimes against humanity.
Mooser answers carnas with a (most feeble) joke, the “freak of nature” carnas
talks about as if there’s no historical and contemporary reason in Palestinian drastic resistence, is actually the enabling USA, reduced down to “Christians like America-fust-cless and Citizen.” Somehow Mooser thinks these two regular commenter on this blog are Christian. Are they? Speaking for myself, I’ve often revealed on this blog that I am an agnostic, but not on principlem, rather by default. Do the regular commenters here think I’m a suporter of any theocratic any state? I doubt it; I certainly have said the contrary, and many times, and way before Mooser first posted here. So Mooser goes on with his comment anyway, saying me and American First will only be happy when we make (In Israel, I guess) jews second class citizens. Then he adds, we will be happy “when the US is just like Israel.” Does anyone follow his logic? Guessing, maybe he means I and American First, reps of the whole USA anti-semitic collective, wish to make jews in the USA
second class citizens as Palestinians are now in Israel. No. I simply want the Palestinians to have equal rights, liberty, justice, just as Mooser enjoys in the USA.
I agree with Mooser that the 98% gentile USA is enabling the contrary in Israel and the OT. As to Mooser, I don’t begrudge him his paranoia–he’s entitled, but as his dad tried to tell him, you are only a king here among 300 million equally entitled kings or queens.
Citizen, I think “Christian” in this case would be code for “goy”.
“Speaking for myself, I’ve often revealed on this blog that I am an agnostic, but not on principlem, “
And I thought we could depend on you for that Christian sense of justice you learned at your Mother’s knee. Guess we’ll have to fall back on your “inborn” sense of justice. Either way, we’re screwed.
TRYING TO LEGITIMIZE THE UNTHINKABLE
Olmert at the University of Chicago getting his just treatment from the people, it is not enough, justice must be done.
That’s pretty heartening to see. It’s too bad the media can’t be bothered to cover actual protests like this — they’re too busy focusing on “astroturf” put out by Fox News, financial and health insurance “industry” lobbyists and the Dick Armey.
Thousands of people showed up at each of the protests against Gaza across the US. They got almost no coverage.
But then this is the same media we trusted to tell us the truth about Iraq, so.
And from their performance so far, they can be trusted to do the same with Iran.
A few thousand people march for democracy in Iran, it’s a four-day story. “They’re courageous and so sophisticated!”
Tens of millions march for democracy in the United States, ignored. “Go away, hippies.”
The protesters in Iran are so courageous, but the same media that admire them are also drumming up war against them. Bombs don’t know the difference between supporters or opponents of political leaders. They blow up everyone they fall on.
I doubt that this kind of shouting down kind of protest is effective, though I’m not completely sure. I have a kid at U of C, involved with one of the Palestinian solidarity groups (though she’s not Arab or Muslim) who felt really conflicted about it. She said to me that she actually would prefer to hear Ahmadinejad (for instance) speak, instead of him being shut out. Open freedom of speech can only help the Palestinian cause in US. So maybe better to deploy it, rather than this kind of uncivil disobedience. The demo outside the hall is useful though.
“I have a kid at U of C, involved with one of the Palestinian solidarity groups…
That is wonderful to hear. I hope there are many of those groups on college campuses.
Scott, Ahmadinejad isn’t killing anyone. The campaign to stop him from speaking is based on his discourse. Olmert meanwhile has a lot of blood on his hands.
The university wasn’t wrong to invite him, just as the protestors were not wrong to interrupt him, especially just as he began inciting against “fanatics” and “fundamentalists” in an attempt to justify his war crimes in Gaza.
Looks like democracy to me.
Was that Richard Witty I saw standing outside the hall at the very end?
Courageous dissent.
You’ve got to see this. Ehud Olmert getting heckled at University of Chicago and branded as a “war criminal.” The dialogue is shifting, and it will go from a trickle to a gusher as the Goldstone report gets taken up at the Security Council.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1121645.html
I miss all the fun.
This is a great video. Thanks, US_Objector.
Carnas,
You need to know your own damn history. Zionists have been inciting physical violence against Palestinians Jews and Arabs for 90 years. They started it.
Explaining the Long — and Largely Untold — History of Jewish Opposition to Zionism
http://www.acjna.org/acjna/articles_detail.aspx?id=502
Carnas,
You need to know your own damn history. Zionists have been inciting physical violence against Palestinians Jews and Arabs for 90 years. They started it:
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html
See, Carnas, it’s not that we are bad people, it’s just that, as you and I know so well, Jews can’t resist a bargain. And there were all these worn-out and discredited ideologies lying around, and the Zionists could pick them up in wholesale lots; you got your colonialism, along with a 19th Century British public-school Biblical geography, ridiculous and contradictory racial theories, self-created history, well, who can blame the Zionists for buying the whole lot. I mean, at the time it looked like they could corner the market! But instead, they just ended up painting themselves into a corner.
And romantic nationalism! Mustn’t forget that, too
LOL
==================================
Yeah, right Mooser, you always lampoon anti-semitic stereotypes, and then reinforce them with your own lingering wondering. So, if you have a problem with that, imagine the problem of a non-Jewish ethical humanist! No, you can’t. The Balfour Declaration and the subsequent UN (power politics arm-twisting) partition–and
(again, this time on the USA domestic front) Truman’s OK–in both cases bought
with economic power, both bribes in reality. As to “Zionists buying the whole lot”
of late 19th Century ethnic nationalsim, yeah, the Zionist joined the bandwagon–and yes, they sought to corner the market, just as the Nazis boot-strapped, and now it’s a time of reckoning for the Zionists. Just as the Nazis painted themselves into a corner, so to, later now, has Israel-AIPAC. Deal with it, don’t just blame me and American First by” joking” we are anti-semites at core.
What the hell are you on about Citizen? You are getting all mad because you are not reading my comments correctly. But that doesn’t surprise me. It’s sort of a you-have-to-be-Jewish thing, you know.
Now, my Mom swears that I asked for a Porsche for my Bar Mitzvah. I don’t think I was even aware of what a Porsche was at 13, but that’s what she says.
But hey, did I ever tell you what my Dad told me when I asked him for a Jaguar?
He said ” Son, I’ll buy you a Jaguar when your d…. but please, stop me if I’ve told this one before.
Anyway, anyone who says their nephew lost limbs in the War on Iraq because of “institutionalised Hasbara” has a real problem. Honestly, you don’t think a larger chunk of blame lies elsewhere?
But like I always say, I am well aware that any change in America’s policies towrd Israel will be derived from a discourse which is as deep, and as devoted to truth and the common good, as all of our other policy decisions. Shitty, but that’s the way it goes.
Some comments here are just ridiculous! “A town as small as Sderot, with hardly any major industry, could probably be relocated if the safety of its residents were most important.” Oh, yes, this is a logical reasonable proposal. If you wish to discuss the issues, try to leave such bulls*** elsewhere.
Wondering Jew, people like you care only when it is their own, even the mere suggestion that they move. However, that has NEVER stopped Israel from tearing down homes, throwing people on the streets – but the mere suggestion that someone move from Sderot bothers you.
It is always amazing, these hypothetical – always used as the excuse for murder and destruction by Israel “they may – might – could possibly be,” and than the Nazi so-called preemptive murderous action strikes. I am surprised after all of what has been done to Palestinians since 1948 for this colonial project has never moved you, you are twice dead – but the mere suggestion of Sderot gets you’re hackles up – walking dead man, zombie, moral reprobate -
SOCIOPATHIC OBJECTOR
Why discuss when you can sneer? It’s much easier to call me names than to discuss issues. Thanks for the music.
Discuss what Wondering? Lets have a talk, like Olmert who seeks justification and a legitimacy for an inexcusable massacre. Lets put another label on it, everything is up for grabs. Why don’t we have a sterile academic discussion, as if at this point we are just involved in the “natural progression” of conflicts. Have you ever held a dying child in you’re arms? Lets talk, have at it.
Anybody care to see the history of Sderot before the jews took it over? I mean, it’s not like there were no people there before and at the time it was taken over by the jews.
wondering jew–if the Chinese can move a few million people to build a dam, I’m guessing a tiny town in the Negev desert could probably be moved out of rocket-range.
But then what would the Zionists use to justify their war crimes against Gaza?
And where would they take the visiting US Congressmen?
So discuss already. What precisely is bullshit about the proposal of relocating the population of Sderot?
Of course, if Israel would have agreed to the Hamas offer of a ceasefire, this wouldn’t be necessary, but …
Group sneer, everyone on the count of three.
So this is your idea of discussion – taunting and dismissing. Go take a look in the mirror and see whose lips are curled.
You really don’t have a reasonable response to the suggestion of relocating Sderot, do you?
No, it is a preposterous idea and I have no response to it.
A discussion of the possibility of a cease fire that would have included a lifting of the siege on Gaza is a valid discussion. A proposal of moving a town is just poppycock and should be reserved for talking to yourself in the loo.
No, it is a preposterous idea and I have no response to it.
In short, you are reduced to sneering.
Why the notion of Israeli Jews being moved for their own safety somehow preposterous, when the notion of driving Arabs out of their homes with gunfire is not?
If the real goal is the safety of the population, the safety of those children, then the obvious solution is to move them out of danger. The refusal to even consider this solution suggests that some other goal has priority, such as the propaganda value of the constant tours of the place, putting the children on exhibit.
Why not move all Jews out of Israel? Oh yes, I forgot that is your position.
For a moment consider a chess game. What should I do? your opponent asks. “Resign!” you answer.
No. This is not a realistic proposal. It is a proposal for surrender, which you consider valid. But it is not real nor do you think it is real. but you will keep arguing.
It is interesting to see that you acknowledge Israel is using the children of Sderot as pawns in a political game, deliberately exposing them to rocket fire for the sake of a propaganda victory.
If toxic waste were discovered under the houses of Sderot, they would be moved.
And behold you keep arguing. Very well. Israel has cities near its borders. You propose that Israel remove the population from these cities. I tell you that this proposal is not acceptable. You insist that it is acceptable and I say, no it isn’t. You say it’s propaganda. I say it’s common sense. You say why not? and I say it’s strategic. You say they are pawns. And I say that survival is the object of the game.
Yes, I will always keep arguing.
Consider the war that Israel waged on Lebanon. Israel evacuated much of its population from near the border. It moved them out of harm’s way.
Was this surrender or a concern for their safety?
But then Israel agreed to a ceasefire, so the population could return.
What this suggests to me is that Israel knows there is little real danger to the population of Sderot from rockets from Gaza, and it enjoys the propaganda value of having the place under rocket fire more than it regards their safety.
Just a point of information: what cities or towns did the government of Israel evacuate during the war with lebanon?
WJ – evacuation was voluntary so I don’t think any towns were entirely vacated.
Here are some figures. http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.2904297/k.131A/The_HezbollahIsrael_Conflict_By_the_Numbers.htm
You monsters don’t even care about the children who really suffered in this, do you?
Do you think Sabah Abu Halima was terribly upset when her friends were timing daily rocket fire to coincide with the 15 minutes Jewish schoolchildren spend walking home from school? And did you witness any of that persecution while you were yucking it up with mass murderers, Phillip?
This is probably not true, like most of the things you post Michael. However, lets say that it is true, perhaps the Palestinians are learning after it has been done with deadly accurate force by the Israelis, to their school children too many times to count. In fact, even this most recent massacre that killed 400 children began during children returning from school on the streets in Gaza -
KILL THE CHILDREN INCORPORATED
However, you speak of these “rockets” which are one generation above a firecracker, and rarely hit with injury. Most upsetting, where is the outcry about what has been done with impunity to the Palestinian children? Oh, there is none, go join Wondering Jew you reprobate.
Oh. sorry Michael, I did not mean to use the same link I gave to Wondering Jew in your instance (however it is equally applicable). Here is the correct link –
KILL THE CHILDREN INCORPORATED
Since you are now claiming Israelis time their attacks to kill Arab children, can you answer what has prevented them from using smart bombs to just target the schools out right? Along with the rest of the empty hyperbole and drivel you shovel around you can’t even come up with a logical retort.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2005/Victims/Ayala-Haya+Abukasis.htm
The teenager above was walking home with her 10 year old brother. When the warning sounded that the rockets you label as little more than “firecrackers” were on their way, there was no time to get to shelter so she threw herself on top of her younger brother. A rocket, that turns out to be just a bit more deadly than a firecracker, landed near them and the shrapnel meant to kill civilians tore into her. With her own flesh she stopped a rocket. Later, smirking criminals were seen hi fiving each other over the Jewish kill they made. Firecrackers indeed. Of course…accuracy is not one of your strong points, my wannabe Indian punching bag.
Well the obvious answer is that they (Israelis) have constantly targeted schools, with both bombs and gun fire. The recent bombing of the UN schools is merely a punctuation point in an entire history of such practices. Look Michael the evidence of this is absolutely conclusive, I even have videos of children in their own school yards ducking bullets! They shoot children who throw stones. The number one reason for death by gunfire among Palestinian children is a shot administered to the head by Israeli “soldiers.” Children at play are murdered by mortar fire, missiles, gun fire. In fact, there was even a campaign administered called “Break The Bones” by Israeli soldiers where children were beaten to death and crippled with bludgeons.
As usual you do not have a problem knowing what you are talking about Michael, you are just a shill for wholesale slaughter and massacres. It is your silence that attests to this, it is your servile repetition of lines of propaganda by an illegal occupying force. One that is a first for laying a brutal and deadly siege to an almost defenseless people, you have no shame.
“Well the obvious answer is that they (Israelis) have constantly targeted schools, with both bombs and gun fire.”
This is quite interesting in a juvenile way. You did not answer my question, because you know you are talking out of your ass, as usual. Israel has bunker buster bombs, and a vast arsenal of laser guided munitions, if their intent is to time their attacks to kill children what do your poor stone wielding Arabs have to prevent them from doing so? What prevents Israel from firing barrages of unguided artillery rounds at schools and hospitals the moment the bell rings to let the children out? Don’t stand there drooling all over yourself with that far off, slack jawed, vacant stare thing you do when you know you are wrong, try to dig up some insults to cover your inadequacy before your pals here catch on to the fact that it was you the village came looking for when you first arrived.
“The recent bombing of the UN schools is merely a punctuation point in an entire history of such practices.”
When was that? Because a qassam fell on Israel yesterday. Not to mention that the UN school was not bombed, check your sources, idiot. Btw, you do realize Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have both labeled the launching of qassam rockets as a “war crime”? That doesn’t seem to bother you in your faux rage against the injustice of it all.
“The number one reason for death by gunfire among Palestinian children is a shot administered to the head by Israeli “soldiers.””
This is a gem amongst a treasure chest full of them. Would sourcing this with credible documentation be too much to ask? Or does the crusted egg on your face serve a purpose?
“In fact, there was even a campaign administered called “Break The Bones” by Israeli soldiers where children were beaten to death and crippled with bludgeons.”
Where are the autopsy reports to confirm this?
“As usual you do not have a problem knowing what you are talking about Michael”
That is correct, I don’t have a problem with knowing what I am talking about. Maybe if you will answer my first question and the following ones as well, you can prove to your girlfriends here that you do too.
“One that is a first for laying a brutal and deadly siege to an almost defenseless people, you have no shame.”
Right, so if they are defenseless how do they have any children left at all, since Israel is targeting them for massacre, slaughter, brutality, and death? (sing along, letter v, the card carrying AIM member….heh he slaughter, brutality, and death…oh my! slaughter, brutality, and death…oh my! slaughter, brutality, and death…oh my!)
Ladies and Gentlemen, Michael LeFavour! Brought to you by Avigdor Lieberman and the other fine folks at the Israeli Foreign Ministry!
Probably she and all the other children in Gaza would envy the children of Sderot and happily go to live in a place where that would be the worst danger they were exposed to.
A point well taken, postsherd. Too bad all those USA congressmen who visit Sderot
won’t take it in; after all, they want to remain USA congressmen.
Perhaps if they would ask their parents to focus more on building hospitals and schools instead of qassams and suicide belts they might have a place like Sderot of their own. Of course, I doubt the hypochondriac Arab society would stand for a single home made Jewish rocket though, and why should they when they have a legion of misguided dupes to play the part of stooge for them?
Israel does not allow Gaza to build hospitals or schools.
Right potsherd, and the ones that the Palestinians have the Israelis destroy (Hospitals and schools). In the Palestinian schools they not only destroy them but rob them, they rob orphanages of food and books – because we know that food and books in Israeli parlance are bombs and weapons (obvious sarcasm)! However, potsherd is right, they are currently not allowed to build anything, and anything they have built in the past has been destroyed ten times over by the Israeli genocidal wrecking crew.
Michael, it is time for you to return to you’re Zionist hasbara site(s). This would be useful, the argument, except as usual you are nothing but a pathetic parrot of Dershowitz, Pipes, and Lewis et al. Even how you use the word “Arab” monolithic tone – which is just a ridiculous throwback to the nationalism of the 19th century…as if there are no territorial and ancestral differences in all the individuals you lump together as “Arab.” To be totally frank Zionism makes you stupid, you are a throwback to the days of antebellum slavery – the cloistered and coddled individuals that lived off of the commiseration of others, monosyllabic cogitation, in short you are a first class dupe. You’re legacy is waiting –
THE LEGACY
Israel has built or expanded five major universities where none existed before 1967. You honestly have no problems with the red faced shame of being ignorant do you? Israel has also built hundreds of clinics and Have you ever heard of Beir Zeit university? Bethlehem University? Islamic College at Hebron? College of Scientists in Abu Dis? The College of Social Welfare in El Bira? The College of Religion in Beit Hanina? All built by Jews for Arabs in the vain hope that education would end the terror. But all that happened was that terror increased. Lack of education is a leftist excuse for not having to face reality. There are plenty of educated terrorists, that is not the common denominator. Neither is poverty. Nope need to keep looking for something they all have in common, like maybe…just maybe, Islam.
There were only 113 hospitals and clinics before the Jews arrived. That one eyed leftist decided that Jews would nice the population to death and today there are over 400, built by Jews for Arabs and all they do is laugh at the kindness. No, Jews have not prevented the building of hospitals and if they have attacked them it is because the people you champion have used them illegally by setting up bunkers and storage facilities within them.
Well, since you think there is a significant difference between an Arab calling himself a west bank Palestinian and an Arab from Transjordan, why don’t you detail what it is for us? Just to clear it up. And explain what happened on the east bank in the 1920s when Hashemites invaded on the backs of camels and set themselves up as dictators over the formerly free tribes.
How long do people have to put up with you’re damn lies Michael? Israel did not build squat for the Palestinians –
Not Birzeit
Not Bethlehem
Not Hebron University
You are a not only a bad liar but a congenital one. Oh, and in regard you’re demands for proof, you can start by answering all of the FACTS I presented in regard to you’re initial non-factual retorts in previous postings. Don’t worry, I am patient, when you do I will say more regarding you’re dumb questions about what I posted here (posted by you at 7:15 here).
BREAK THEIR BONES
I asked for proof of how many were killed. Specifically I asked for autopsy reports to support the ridiculous claim that Israelis beat any Arabs to death on orders under the Break the Bones farce.
“Oh, and in regard you’re demands for proof, you can start by answering all of the FACTS I presented in regard to you’re initial non-factual retorts in previous postings.”
Answering the facts you have presented? That is done. You have presented NONE. But tell you what, in an effort to keep this on topic here, create a subject on your, heh he…blog and I will go there and answer any challenge you present. Fair? You will have full moderation powers, how can you resist? Create a new entry, state your premise, give supporting evidence and I will rebut, or understand my rather low opinion of your intellect here, it matters not to me.
According to the US State Department’s 1989 report on human rights in Israel, at least 13 Arabs died from the beatings under the Break Their Bones orders in the previous year.
“According to the US State Department’s 1989 report on human rights in Israel, at least 13 Arabs died from the beatings under the Break Their Bones orders in the previous year. ”
Can you link me to the report, I browsed for about 10 minutes and gave up. I do recall at the time there was a media frenzy over just one country, though. Israel. Just a few months before the report came out the same media hardly bothered to mention that about 800 civilians were cut down in Algeria with machine gun fire in a food riot.
I found a report by the Delegation of Inquiry of the International Committee for Palestinian Human Rights which gave a report several months later. It wasn’t mentioned there. The moral equivalency propaganda outlet at B’Tselem was founded in 1989 couldn’t find any reference to the 13 there either. Don’t doubt it exists, yet. Just want to view the entire report in context and verify for myself. Do you suppose they mentioned the terrorists that firebombed an Israeli bus in Jericho, in October, killing a mother and her 3 children? “Palestine” isn’t a country and all, but I wonder if they ever keep context? You know, the stonings, bus bombings, stabbings, and grenade attacks that tend to piss people off after awhile.
The report was cited in John Connroy’s Unspeakable Act, Ordinary People {The Dynamics of Torture}, p 140.
There is of course nothing ridiculous about torturing people to death, even if they are Arabs. It is no wonder that this oppressive violence begets more violence.
Holocaust denial tactics! They’re not just for Nazis anymore.
For the record? I’m not calling you a Nazi, LaFavour. You’re too lazy to be anything that dangerous.
The mass murderers are Israelis, LeFavour. One only needs to look at dozens upon dozens of reports put out by the UN and various international human rights groups.
You are the new Nazis.
That adds to the debate…and your personal mystique as a rational observer I might add.
From curiosity, how do you differentiate murder from killing in battle, in self defense, or as a police action? Like, if a bank robber grabs a hostage and starts firing, and a cop returns fire and kills the hostage on accident, does the Chaos doctrine call that murder? And who does the Chaos code of liability go after if both the cop and the bank robber survive? Which is liable for the death under your personal interretation of how things are in the world?
Yes! Confuse the issue with a contrived hypothetical example. That’ll confuse us from the fact that your argument has no substance! Yep yep!
I am simply trying to ascertain if you know the difference between having to kill someone in battle versus…say shooting the tires out of a family car, walking up to it, and putting several bullets into the backs of the heads of the 4 screaming girls and their pregnant mother inside? This is not a contrived event it was what your friends call a resistance strike.
Yeah. They spell those difference out quite clearly in the Goldstone report, you know. Among dozens of other reports, for that matter.
That must be in the fine print where the author gives an obligatory mention to actual ‘murder’ committed by your friends in abbreviated form, huh?
You should read the report. You’ve demonstrated with great clarity that you haven’t, obviously.
Chaos:
“If my parents moved me into a newly built home that was built by razing an African American neighborhood, and then supported police brutality against those displaced African Americans who had everything taken from them so that my parents could live in a gated community, then I would blame my parents.”
A. It’s not like I’d be saying anything new, but your home is built on land that was once owned by other people, whose whole civilization was destroyed by your ancestors. And now they get to live in reservations and erect casinos. Great.
B. Your parents do live in a gated community – gated from African Americans, who are relegated to ghettos in all the big cities. Ever heard of white flight? Americans like to boast about how egalitarian their society is, and we have a black president, but on a day-to-day basis, it’s just as racist as any other society. And hypocritical enough to claim it isn’t.
I don’t own a home, thank you. And you don’t know where I live, you psychotic child-murdering bastard so I’ll be damned if I’m going to take that Zionist lebensraum from you.
Newsflash: all US cities are segregated, so where you live is irrelevant. As is everything else you say; just an attempt to evade the topic.
You’re the one wholeheartedly defending IDF attacks on THREE YEAR OLD CHILDREN. You call me evasive, when that’s what you’re about?
“Newsflash: all US cities are segregated, so where you live is irrelevant. As is everything else you say; just an attempt to evade the topic.”
No. 3 “You Suck”
No US city, no matter how many divisions there are, is segregated by governmental order and all public areas are open to anybody.
And all those “other people” are living in refugee camps in Canada, where they will be shot if they try to cross the border back into the US.
No?
Potsherd:
“Consider the war that Israel waged on Lebanon. Israel evacuated much of its population from near the border. It moved them out of harm’s way.”
You’re so full of bs. Israel didn’t evacuate “much of its population”; people primarily took short vacations from the north on their own accord and then came back. In any case, that was a one-month thing, not 8 years of having to endure rocket fire, where a short-term vacation won’t do much good.
Gee, it’s nice for the Israelis that they can afford to take month-long vacations. Damn do they have life so miserable, compared to the Palestinians.
You really are a nasty piece of work.
“Much of the population from near the border”
This only proves that Israel will agree to a ceasefire that benefits some of its citizens, but Sderot is not important enough to them. They prefer to have an excuse to attack Hamas rather than accept their offers of peace, and Sderot is left to pay the price.
Well, there is one other issue potsherd, which our friend “carnas” seems to forget, or more than likely is ignorant of regarding Sderot. Even BEFORE there was a single “rocket” fired from Gaza, Sderot was the launching point of every incursion into Gaza – what was the excuse at that time? To this day there are kibbutz with military flavor peppered throughout the area, in fact, tanks have fired right from the front yards of these “neutral citizens” in Sderot.
Which brings me to another observation, if you look at where military bases and facilities are located in Israel, you will find that they are in the poorer neighborhoods which have either Israeli Palestinians in them, or a mixture of poor Jews with poor Israeli Palestinians. So, in light of the long long history of assault from this region, before a single rocket was fired, the idea of the rockets being the sole cause of the attacks just does not wash. Oh, and I did not even bring up the fact of the attacks on the West Bank and Jerusalem, that have not fired a single rocket.
In other words, when these “apologists” for Israel pop up they do not have a leg to stand on under close examination. This is why it is so easy to kock them off of their self-inflated, ignorant pedestals.
“To this day there are kibbutz with military flavor peppered throughout the area, in fact, tanks have fired right from the front yards of these “neutral citizens” in Sderot.”
v, who makes up the nonsense you post here? You have quite a lively imagination and willingness to lie to advance your view. What military bases in the poorer neighborhoods of Israel can you name? I’ll take a wild guess: 2.
You’re going to continue to make a complete idiot out of yourself, aren’t you carnas? I would be careful no to talk too much because the more you talk the more challenged you look, because you have no idea who you are conversing with –
Beit Lead – Hadera Northern Infantry – Mishmar HaNegev – Shomryyi Southern – Shrga – Shizafon – Hatzerim – Hatzor – Megiddo – Nevatim – Ovda (Uvda / Ouvda) – Palmachim – Ramat David – Tel Nof – Ramon – Sde Dov – Sedot Mikha –
Special weapons facilities near the above mentioned – Soreq – Be’er Yaakov – etc. Take an aspirin and call me in the morning…
“because you have no idea who you are conversing with”
These are the gems I miss when I am away. The least threatening intellect hiding behind an alias on this forum has the overweening pride to present himself, unproven, as the font source of Middle Eastern wisdom. V digests current events then for some reason, like a child the first time he makes it to the toilet before crapping his pants insists upon saving the turd he produces as a source of pride and admiration. Though he has only succeeded in creating little more than an allegory for his pseudo-intellectual idiocy, complete with shoddy references, selective historical sources, and an imagined crystal ball, he is amusing on a juvenile level.
V(small cap), can I suggest that the next time you feel the urge to share your musings with us, you pause for a moment, reconsider, and then have no reservation in your decision to send the detritus results of your sophistry onto its truest, highest calling……….and flush.
We really missed you when you were away. Nobody shovels the BS like you, LeFavour. Not even Witty.
former coMMenter October 17, 2009 at 12:56 pm
“Scott, Ahmadinejad isn’t killing anyone. The campaign to stop him from speaking is based on his discourse.”
Are people here really as dumb as they sound? Do Neda Agha Sultan and the dozens of other protesters who were gunned down in the streets mean nothing? Oh, I forgot the logic: if you’re anti-Israel, you’re acceptable, even if you happen to head a regime which murders its opponents and others those who don’t fit its fanatical views (e.g., gays), imprisons them, or simply denies their existence.
v, now i know i’m talking to an ignorant liar – almost all the places you mention below are in the Negev desert, far from any “neighborhoods”, a fortiori poorer neighborhoods.
Let’s see one for example:
“The Shizafon Armor Corps Training Base is in the heart of the Arava, in the middle of nowhere, two hours away from the closest city.”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/shizafon.htm
You’re a walking joke. Go educate yourself.
You’re an asshole. This article is about a Palestinian child that Israelis attacked, brutally. And you don’t care. You couldn’t give two shits. You’re a monster.
The thread had moved on. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out that someone here is spreading disinformation, unless of course it doesn’t work in your favor, right?
Anyway, I give two shits what you think, that’s for sure.
“The thread has moved on?” So much for “never forget.” You’re not just the Jewish version of Holocaust denier, you’re the Jewish version of a Nazi sympathizer as well.
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with Chaos is a Nazi? Nazis taught your friends how to manipulate media. Has it even been determined fair and impartially that the child was burned by white phosphorous? Should we take the word of the people that gave us reports of 500 dead at Jenin, stacked live children for no apparent reason on the stretcher of a dead terrorist and told them to play dead, staged fake funerals, shuttled the same bodies to one site after another for photo ops, created fake plumes of smoke to exaggerate the situation in Lebanon, staged Muhammad Al Dura’s death, and other Pallywood drama? How do we know the child wasn’t the victim of a house fire? Because her dad tells us so? You are being used as a tool and a stooge and Phillip Weiss’ handlers are laughing their asses off at the butt kissing followers he has attracted like yourself.
I do pity the child btw. If it was in my power I would pay for her treatment myself, not for publicity, not for a creepy photo op, but because it kills me to think she will be deformed and that she does not understand right now, and especially that she must endure life in a society where “the value of a woman is little else than her ability to breed sons, please her husband and be a good housekeeper.” LA Times.
Yay! It’s the Zionist gang-bang now! Which blog did you wackos coordinate this particular episode from, out of curiosity?
Not quite Sherlock who does not know shit (carnas), perhaps you do not count the Bedouin as “people” but I do, and this base is nestled right near their dwellings because they do not care about them. In fact, this is the only one you can mention because YOU are the joke carnas, and you do not know anything about what you are so willing to defend. In fact, they forced them to live in places nearby but off the planned base area. So if you are going to talk to me ignorant putz you better get your damn facts straight, rather than reading some stupid site that takes the word of the Israelis in regard to their bases – even this one. The nerve of these ignoramus.
v, thanks for continuing to expose yourself as an idiot. Just because there are Bedouin in the Negev doesn’t mean they live anywhere near these bases, or ever did. Here’s more information you should try to fit into your pea-sized brain: Israel is a tiny country, and most of the bases you mentioned are in the Negev because it’s the only area that isn’t heavily populated. So your argument is about as logical as railing against someone with a 5X5 apartment and no real kitchen for storing appliances in a closet.
Screw you, carnas. You’re the phony. You’re the trash-mouthed Zionist excuse for a human being who came to a blog entry with absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for one of the innocent victims of the conflict — the child above — and instead came here to derail the discussion by hurling crude insults at the rest of us.
You’re basically an uneducated incarnation of Richard Witty.
Thank you v. for correcting carnas.
This is because Israel does not allow the Bedouin villages to be on the map.
like v, potsherd is also exposed as someone willing to say things he has no evidence for, and then be forced to backtrack (I’d say knowingly lie, but I’m trying to remain subtle).
“WJ – evacuation was voluntary so I don’t think any towns were entirely vacated.”
Potsherd’s statement was that “much of the population” in this region was evacuated. This does not necessarily imply that any given towns were entirely depopulated.
Carnas grasps at straws to no purpose, other than to contradict people.
Yes, they pick at straws, and grab the one that has shit on it – see my response to his ignorant majesty carnas at 1:30AM. Big mouths with no knowledge or substance.
Carnas, go get an education or just shut up –
“In the decades following the 1948 war, Israeli governments worked relentlessly to make the Bedouin “disappear.” The Bedouin who had not fled or been terrorized from their tribal lands during the war were “transferred” in the 1950s, either to the center of the country, to ghettoes attached to towns like Ramle and Lod, where many work as low-wage manual laborers, or to a small area close to the town of Beersheva, in the northern Negev. The rest of the Negev, some 85 percent of the total land mass, was declared off limits, designated as blocs of MILITARY ZONES [bases] and conservation parks.” capital emphasis mine
BEDOUIN AND THE NEGEV
Bedouins of the Negev: Israeli citizens or punishable trespassers?
DESTROYING THE BEDOUIN IN THE NEGEV
Thank you v. I get too disgusted, too outraged at correcting every single colonial myth all over again. And it’s been going on since (for me) 67.
How the hell do you take over and secure a country for yourself, from its inhabitants, given a colonial opening by the western powers? I bet Jews, Zionists, do it just like anybody else.
That’s right, they do, and that’s why it’s so galling to hear about “the only democracy in the Middle East,” with their “purity of arms” and “the most moral army in the world” engaging in “self-defense.” It’s the hypocrisy, stupid! (not to you Mooser, just in general.) That’s why I find Lieberman and the settlers much easier to stomach. At least they’re being honest in what they’re doing: ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jews, by any means necessary, because they believe that they’re God’s chosen people and the rest of us can eat shit and die.
Does self preservation ever creep into your version of why some Jews feel threatened enough to want Arabs removed from where they can easily murder Jewish children from, Sanchez? Just curious, I didn’t hear too many voices crying foul when Jews were cleansed from the rest of the ME and assigned to the bantustan called Israel, because the Muslims believe they are Allah’s chosen people. Did you? And actually, since the Jews have tanks and self propelled artillery, what does keep that Arab population growing every year despite the ethnic cleansing you and your ilk have been writing about for decades? Odd, huh?
Yeah, they’re a real threat to the safety of Jewish children, those Bedouin nomads. I mean, if Israel needed to slaughter three hundred urban-dwelling Palestinians in less than a month because they can’t stand to live anywhere near brown people, just think of what they’ll need to do against desert nomads.
By the way? Ethnic cleansing and genocide are two different terms. You might want to look them up. Might keep you from making a fool of yourself in the future, LeFavour. Not exactly holding my breath here, but hey.
Um… weren’t Jews paid by Israel to move to Israel, incidentally? Israel’s not a bantustan by any stretch of the word. Bantustans aren’t allowed to be rogue nuclear threats to the world, for one thing.
If Jews are so worried about their children being possibly murdered by Arabs, they shouldn’t move into an Arab neighborhood. Their peace of mind will be greatly benefitted, and they will not become murderers.
I think the more relevant fact, potsherd, is that Jews got along perfectly fine and perfectly safe in Palestine before European Zionists invaded. Hell, they did just fine across the whole of the Middle East, overall, in the eras leading up to Zionism where Europeans and Russians were busy slaughtering Jews left, right and center.
“Hell, they did just fine across the whole of the Middle East, overall,”
I don’t know if “did just fine” overs it, but it is always amazing to me how Zionists always have the Jews suffering in complete isolation, as if there were no events occuring except pogroms.
You know, when I was growink up, and in my teen years, I was subject to a little verbal anti-Semitism, a little anti-Semitic social rejection. And my parents were so un-sympathetic! All they ever said was (and I saw later how smart they were) :” If you don’t want to bear any anti-Semitism, associate exclusively with Jews, that should take care of it.”
Later on I learned something about the other groups in American society, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, women, Native-Americans and realised just how lucky I was, and how little it all meant.
And I was very sorry about that kid I sent to the hospital, just for calling a Cadillac a “Jew canoe”. Sorry about that Charlie, I’m glad no permanent harm was done.
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