The idea that Israel could be involved in supplying weapons to Hamas might sound like a preposterous conspiracy theory, but let’s look at some connections — the theory might not be as wild as it sounds.
In undisputed reports, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh has been described as the top Hamas commander responsible for coordinating the flow of arms into Gaza. He is said to have established a smuggling route through Sudan — a route upon which a convoy of weapons was intercepted and destroyed in an Israeli drone attack just over a year ago.
From accounts of Mabhouh’s killing we know that he bought his ticket to Dubai just two days before traveling there and within just a few hours of his departure from Syria, an assassination team was en route to the same destination. Nineteen hours before the assassination, fifteen operatives left on flights for Dubai, departing from France, Germany, Switzerland and Italy. The Times of London reported that Mahbouh was “tracked from the moment he boarded Emirates flight EK 912 at Damascus at 10.05 on January 19.”
I said “an assassination team” but from hereon I’ll refer to them as the Mossad operatives. Until one of them is arrested and the Israeli government starts negotiating for his or her release, we won’t know with absolute certainty that this was a Mossad operation, but I’ll go with the Dubai police chief and say that we can be 99% sure.
The British and Irish governments would not haul in the Israeli ambassadors in London and Dublin to demand an explanation for the theft of their citizens’ passports simply on the basis of a rumor. Indeed, if Israel had been set up by one of its enemies, as some Israeli leaders have suggested, then Israel too would be launching an investigation into the breach of its own passport records. As well as being concerned about a serious security breach, Israeli would have every reason to want to pacify the concerns of those citizens who now fear that they are being placed at risk by their own government — Israelis such as Anshel Pfeffer, who writes:
Enough cases in the past have come to light in which the identities of Jews, most of whom were born outside of Israel, were used by Israeli secret agents. It is hard not to feel that there has been and still is a blatant disregard for the safety and privacy of those whose identities were used… [H]ow can Israel claim to be a democracy fighting terror and dictatorships, and continue to promote aliyah from Western countries, when this is the way it supposedly treats its citizens?
Far from allaying such anxieties, Israeli officials have thus far seemed much more interested in gloating over an operational success. “Mossad knows how to get the job done,” said one minister, while the Israeli embassy in London, though claiming ignorance about the assassination, saw fit to brag on Twitter about the “hit on #Dubai target”.
So let’s return to the sequence of events. There is compelling evidence that the Mossad operatives who killed Mahbouh had plenty of lead time. Indeed, there’s reason to suppose that rather than this being a strike provided by an opportunity, it was a carefully laid trap that the Hamas commander walked straight into.
We know that he left Damascus confident enough for his security detail to face an acceptable delay. This was no blind date. Yet the information released by Dubai suggests that the only people he met once he got there were his killers. Did he miss his contact or did his contact turn out to have deceived him?
It is now reported that Israel provided British intelligence with advance notice of an “overseas operation” that would involve the use of fake British passports. A Mossad officer said Britain’s Foreign Office was also informed hours before Mahbouh’s murder.
If word was out among intelligence agencies, it would come as no surprise if Dubai was also conducting its own surveillance operation. A review of the CCTV images they released, along with the speed with which they identified the members of the Mossad team, does indeed suggest that to some degree they were able to track events as they unfolded and not merely piece together the evidence after the fact.
In some of the videos, the camera appears to be tracking its subject — a mere coincidence that the individuals walked in the same direction the camera was moving? Perhaps.
In the montage of clips put together by Gulf News‘ GNTV, there is another intriguing element. At 13 minutes 40 seconds we see one of the suspects exiting his hotel. The caption reads: “16.14 [local time, January 19] Kevin leaves the hotel and heads towards Al-Bustan Rotana.”
As “Kevin” is stepping into a taxi, a large man — he looks like an American — in jeans, pale blue t-shirt and dark blue jacket, strolls up as the next in line for a taxi. In the video his face has been digitally obscured. Why? Did he have Kevin under surveillance or might he be one of the thus far unnamed suspects?
In all of the video sequences there is only one other individual whose identity is obscured. This comes at 20 minutes 37 seconds in the montage. Kevin is speaking on a cell phone, strolling back and forth in front of the elevator doors in the lobby adjacent to Mahbouh’s room. A large individual exits the right side elevator and engages with Kevin, then exits the lobby walking in the direction of the crime scene. Throughout the sequence the individual’s image has been digitally obscured. In general appearance he looks like an over-weight middle-aged American.
We know that five credit cards issued by American banks were used in the operation. There is an American element to this story that so far remains veiled.
So, keeping in mind all of the above, how do I come to my audacious claim that Israel has been helping supply Hamas with weapons? This doesn’t have to be quite as conspiratorial a theory as it sounds.
The bombing of the Sudan convoy suggests that Mahbouh’s supply network was infiltrated some time ago and though Israel’s much-repeated goal is to stop the flow of weapons into Gaza, the weapons themselves are perhaps less of a concern than is finding the means to weaken or disable Hamas.
What better way of infiltrating the Islamist movement than through its weapons supply chain?
If the Iranian arms dealers in Dubai have been conspicuous by their absence from this story, perhaps it’s because the trap Mahbouh fell into involved Israelis posing as Iranians.
After all, the involvement of governments in illicit arms dealing for political purposes is not unheard of — one of Israel’s closest friends, Elliot Abrams, knows the routine.
Further comment: As presented by Israeli leaders the issue of Gaza is without deviation always treated as a security threat. Gaza, under Hamas’ control presents a threat to southern Israel as in recent years cities such as Sderot have come under persistent rocket attack.
How then is it conceivable that Israel would allow a single weapon to find its way into the Palestinian enclave even if there might be an intelligence payoff from being able to infiltrate and monitor a weapons supply chain?
Wrong question. If Israel really wanted to effectively control the flow of weapons into Gaza it would never have imposed a blockade that resulted in the construction of thousands of smuggling tunnels under the Rafah border.
The surest way of rigorously controlling what gets into Gaza is through a stringently monitored open border. If goods could be brought in overland, there would be little economic incentive for constructing tunnels.
Rather than preventing the flow of weapons, Israel’s greater interest has been in punishing the Palestinian population in the naive hope that people living in great deprivation would turn against their political leaders.
Israel, confident in its ability to use overwhelming force to crush its opponents, has less interest in disarming the Palestinians than it does in breaking their will to fight.
Like a typical colonial power – the Zionist regime has always applied the “divide and rule” formula. Its intelligence agencies have infiltrated almost every resistance group and foreign secret services – from Hamas to CIA and from MI6 to India’s RAW. Mossad still maintains its old KGB links to some extent. After the US, Israel’s largest espionage network is in Lebanon.
Mossad’s stealing foreign passport is as old as its human organ stealing. In the past, Mossad agents have used Canadian, German, Australian, Lebanese and Saudi passports to carry-out the assassination of foreign leaders.
On April 27, 2009 – Israeli English daily Ha’aretz reported the arrest of three men by Lebanon’s Internal Security Forces (ISF) for spying for Israel. Two Lebanese, Ali Mantash and Robert Kfoury, and Mohammad Awad, a Palestinian were arrested from their homes in Southern Lebanon on April 25 for providing information to Mossad about Lebanese and Syrian military and civilian installations…..
link to rehmat1.wordpress.com
you should be a fiction writer Rehmat.
Don’t you know any history yoni? Likud supported Hamas during the 1st Infatada to undermine the PLO.
You have to understand, yoni doesn’t really know how to read — just point him to a link with text and see what happens. He only knows how to make crude personal insults by the cartload.
you are joke Chaos, usually when you are going to accuse a person of doing something you don’t do the exact same thing, in the same post. Makes you look kinda like an asshole.
“He only knows how to make crude personal insults by the cartload.”
And Yonira jumps like a puppet when you jerk the string, too. Really something, isn’t it.
Ah, the wages of ziocaine!
Israel supplied arms to Iran, why not Hamas?
Are you talking about Iran-Contra affair, dude?
It was the present-day USrael darling Moussavi who as the prime minister of Islamic exposed the USrael lies by saying that the American shipment of parts for the Iran’s Air force – was part of purchase paid by Reza Shah before the Israeli stooge was replaced by the Islamist regime.
Israel not only served as the channel for the Iran-Contra arms, it saw a good deal and kept up the arms sales to Iran on its own.
This is not really so different from police in the US encouraging weirdos to dream up plots with the police or the Feds providing or promising to provide weapons to advance the scheme to enable dramatic arrests. It was assumed Israel aided elements of the Fatah it considered to be particularly extreme to sow division within Fatah. It was the US which chose to arm the Taliban fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. For Israel to provide a few weapons to promote division among the Palestinians only makes sense.
The conclusion of the article is more important than the underlying thesis, i.e. that Israel lured Hamas by posing as arms dealers.
A few weeks ago, Robert Fisk visited the region. As many of you know, he normally works out of Beirut, but this time he visited the Gaza tunnels, the West Bank, Ramallah, Gaza and Israel.
The facts he reveals in his article show that by levying taxes on goods smuggled through the tunnels, Hamas has enough money to purchase/smuggle high priced goods through the tunnels. In other words, while the siege on Gaza prevents the general Palestinian population there from getting the basic materials it needs to reconstruct what Israel destroyed in its last rampage, along with the fuel, gas and food, Hamas has the means and the financial capability to smuggle cement and other high priced building materials through the tunnels.
So, the conclusion, the more significant one on which Woodward briefly touched, is that Israel is not only collectively punishing the Palestinians as that is a violation of international law, but Israel maintains the siege knowing that it is punishing the Palestinians while strengthening Hamas’ power in the process.
I’ll repeat what I have said a few weeks ago. Israel has decided that a just peace with its neighbors and with the Palestinians would be too costly. It would be costly because Israel would no longer be able to maintain the military superiority and hegemony it now enjoys in the region. It would also require Israel to return land it took by force. As a result, it has decided to simply manage the conflict. Every time Israel’s opponents make one step forward, Israel pushes them two steps backward. The attack on Lebanon in 2006 was once such “management” of the conflict. The 2009 attack on Gaza was yet another “management”. The murder in Dubai…..well, you get the idea.
The conflict could have been solved next week if Israel were truly interested in settling this conflict. It has the upper hand, both militarily and financially.
I totally agree with the premise that Israeli government is happy to “manage” the conflict indefinitely. I believe, that it has support of USA administration.
An essential part of this strategy is to contain the population of Occupied Territories at little or no cost, while creating an illusion of threat that allows a fig leaf of excuse for containment.
Warehousing undesirable sub-populations is a growing problem for leaders throughout the world and development of solutions has a considerable, exportable, value.
The statement that the conflict could be solved next week if Israel were truly interested is incomplete at best, but most probably intentionally disingenuous. Currently there is a weak government in Mahmoud Abbas and a split between Fatah and Hamas. This is not an optimal situation for serious peacemaking.
Further: maybe you feel that true interest in peace would involve an unlimited “right of return” for Palestinian refugees and an absolutely free border between Jordan and the new Palestinian state to import whatever arms they wish.
I agree that the Netanyahu government, certainly with its current coalition, is unready for peace, but I define peace without a “right of return” and with some attempt to limit import of arms into the nascent Palestine. I realize that the “Geneva Initiative” of Yossi Beilin is vague about both issues, but I would use that as an approximate sample of what a peaceful settlement would look like. Is that the peace settlement that you are referring to?
I include a quote from this week’s bitterlemons.org article by Yossi Alpher on the way forward given the current weakness of the two governments involved.
“Obviously, peace talks are best held between strong and cohesive governments that are in full control of their territory. But that is not the case at present on either side, and is not likely to be in the near future. Yet abandoning any and all prospect of a solution due to the fear of failure and its consequences is hardly the answer.
“That’s why alternative roads to progress should receive greater attention. One is Prime Minister Salam Fayyad’s successful unilateral state-building enterprise in the West Bank. Another is the need to learn from the failure of the Gaza blockade and seek an alternative strategy for stabilizing the Strip so it can’t interfere with a peace process. Yet a third is negotiations with Syria, which have a better chance of success and could positively influence the Palestinian track. Why is the Obama administration devoting so much of its prestige to renewing West Bank negotiations that are doomed to failure and not dealing more aggressively with these additional prospects?” – Published 15/2/2010 © bitterlemons.org
Why? The Obama administration is committed to the Bantustan Solution in the WB, and wants to force Abbas into signing away the Palestinian birthright.
The statement that the conflict could be solved next week if Israel were truly interested is incomplete at best, but most probably intentionally disingenuous.
Wow. You can read my thoughts now. That’s nice.
Currently there is a weak government in Mahmoud Abbas and a split between Fatah and Hamas. This is not an optimal situation for serious peacemaking.
When is it ever an optimal situation? You are peddling the same Israeli bullshit that everyone before you peddled. There never seems to be a good enough partner. Not only is your argument incomplete, it most probably is intentionally disingenuous.
Further: maybe you feel that true interest in peace would involve an unlimited “right of return” for Palestinian refugees and an absolutely free border between Jordan and the new Palestinian state to import whatever arms they wish.
I think you’re a hypocrite and an idiot. You have finally revealed yourself to be no less a propagandist than Witty and the other trolls on this website. Quite frankly, you’re injecting hasbara talking points into this debate in an effort to make your post seem like a relevant response to my post. It isn’t. If you can’t debate the facts on their merits, don’t go scraping the bottom of the barrel for bullshit. OK, Chamudaleh?
I agree that the Netanyahu government, certainly with its current coalition, is unready for peace, but I define peace without a “right of return” and with some attempt to limit import of arms into the nascent Palestine. I realize that the “Geneva Initiative” of Yossi Beilin is vague about both issues, but I would use that as an approximate sample of what a peaceful settlement would look like. Is that the peace settlement that you are referring to?
If it was the “peace settlement” I was referring to, I would have stated so in my post. But, since you’re on a role with your bullshit talking points, let me educate you on a couple of things. (1) I wasn’t born yesterday. So, the tired excuse that the current Netyahoo coalition is not ideal for a peace agreement doesn’t cut it. Get a clue. No one is buying that shtick anymore. Got it? Good. (2) If YOUR version of peace does not include a right of return, then expect your ass to be in the sling for decades to come. Surely, you wouldn’t accept any peace with a foe who kicked you out of your home and never gave anything in return. So take your patronizing rhetoric and tikfotz lee.
I include a quote from this week’s bitterlemons.org article by Yossi Alpher on the way forward given the current weakness of the two governments involved.
The weakness is in your argument and your intellectual abilities.
“Obviously, peace talks are best held between strong and cohesive governments that are in full control of their territory. But that is not the case at present on either side, and is not likely to be in the near future. Yet abandoning any and all prospect of a solution due to the fear of failure and its consequences is hardly the answer.
Obviously, the same song and dance was peddled for more than 20 years. There is ALWAYS an excuse. Rarely is that excuse convincing. Explain why the Olmert government attempted to overthrow the Hamas government with Fatah’s help instead of including them in the negotiations, then we’ll talk. Explain why Israel assassinated countless Palestinians instead of seeking a more diplomatic approach. If you can’t, then tistom ta’peh.
avi is correct, the current leadership in israel has zero interest in any kind of peaceful solution and no intention whatsoever of giving land back, stopping settlements or any attempt to live in peace with its neighbors … the mindset much change among the people of israel and to date they have only hardened attitudes and the leadership has to change – and this will take much more outside pressure than exists now
“The bombing of the Sudan convoy suggests that Mahbouh’s supply network was infiltrated some time ago.. ”
No it does not. It means that the IDF was successful in finding the route. You don’t always need someone on the inside to get information.
“…Israel’s much-repeated goal is to stop the flow of weapons into Gaza, the weapons themselves are perhaps less of a concern than is finding the means to weaken or disable Hamas.”
Stopping the flow of weapons IS a means of weakening Hamas. It certainly doesn’t weaken them politically.
“. If Israel really wanted to effectively control the flow of weapons into Gaza it would never have imposed a blockade that resulted in the construction of thousands of smuggling tunnels under the Rafah border.”
And you think that there wouldn’t be any underground weapons smuggling if there was no blockade? That is quite a leap of logic.
I think it is much more reasonable to assume that the only difference would be that the tunnels would be used exclusively for weapons, and more channels for smuggling would be open.
But I know, I know, everything is Israels fault right? Those evil bastard Zionists…
At the height of the conflict, Israel was slaughtering Palestinian children at a rate of a hundred a week. That was sustained for more than three weeks.
Have the Palestinians ever done anything nearly as bad, as far as crimes against humanity go? I’m listening. Convince me that the Palestinians really do deserve to be starved to death to keep them from so much as laying a finger on old Soviet machine guns, as opposed to stopping Israel from using the best weapons American tax money can buy to attack civilians.
Chaos, you know the conflict started before the War in Gaza right?
But I know, I know, everything is Israels fault right? Those evil bastard Zionists…
Quite the reductionist, aren’t you?
I have no problem characterizing Zionism as evil. It always has been. There is nothing benign about Zionism.
And I don’t think anyone has ever said that EVERYTHING is Israel’s fault. The 800 pound gorilla in the region is colonialism and imperialism. Both have devastated the region, politically and economically, not to mention the human toll. It started with European powers of which Israel became an extension, along with the corrupt puppet leaders of neighboring states.
And the most influential and destructive colonial/imperial power in the region remains Israel. It created the region’s biggest refugee problem/population and continues to violate the indigenous population’s basic human rights.
But, if tossing around alternative accusations to the age old “You’re all a bunch of anti-Semites” makes you feel good, have at it.
“There is nothing benign about Zionism.”
A very very powerful statement.
And I have no problem classifying you as evil and self hating. Obviously you have some unresolved personality issues if you think that 99% of those who share your heritage are evil. Not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites but all anti-Semites are definitely anti-Zionist. Surely you must be aware that you share your views mostly with people who feel that the jews are greedy, power-hungry, communist conspirators who are planning to take over the world.
I have already explained to you the astounding difference between colonialism/imperialism and Zionist settlement. There is not a shade of resemblance. One is about increasing national and individual wealth by settling new lands and exploiting indigenous populations, while Zionist settlement had NO parent country or power that was financing it and was about re-settlement in a place where jews would not have to worry about being helpless against anti-semitism. Furthermore there was no exploitation of the indigenous population since many of the arabs welcomed the settlers (until the Balfour declaration and the increased influx of jews into the area) Its like the difference between a dog and an airplane.
The refugee problem was created by Israel AND the surrounding Arab countries. They bare just as much blame in the creation of the problem and if you read Benny Morris, you would know that. And there was NO ethnic cleansing either since there was no coordinated effort to uproot the population only an effort to win an existential war.
You are such a high-and-mighty propagandist (possibly working for Hamas?) that you thought I was using the old anti-semite card when actually I wasn’t. I know the difference between a jew-hater and and Israel – hater, despite the line being very fuzzy at times.
The Zionists accepted money from the Nazi government knowing full well the funds came from confiscated Jewish property. Do you not consider the German government of WWII not to be a major power funding the Zionists?
You mean AFTER the state was established and the Zionists accepted money from the new GERMAN government. No Zionist that I know ever accepted anything from the Nazis and you would have to come up with some evidence for such a huge (and utterly stupid) claim. Considering that the Nazis publicly supported the grand mufti of Jerusalem, your comment seems pretty goddam ignorant.
Read carefully, douchebag. Then answer the questions.
From, talknic’s excellent blog-post on refuting standard hasbara bullshit:
link to talknic.wordpress.com
Here is what Lieberman had to say on the Mufti – again, perpetuating the ‘myth’ that Palestinians had something to do w/ the Holocaust or that this Mufti character is in any way symbolic or important (as you assert):
So answer the following questions about the Mufti, since you’re an Israeli and served in the IDF and hence, have ‘inherent’ credibility over us (as you assert):
Q1: – How many Palestinians voted for the appointment of the Mufti of Jerusalem?
Q2: – How many Palestinians of today voted for the appointment of the Mufti of Jerusalem?
Q3: – How many Palestinian children between the ages of 0yrs and 12yrs fought in the war of Independence 1948?
Q4: – How many Palestinian children between the ages of 0yrs and 9yrs supported Hitler in 1941?
Q5: – How many Palestinian children between the ages of 0yrs and 9yrs supported the ex Mufti of Jerusalem in 1941?
Q6: – How many Palestinian children between the ages of 0yrs and 3yrs supported the Mufti of Jerusalem in 1939?
Q7: – What ‘facts’ was Lieberman’s spokesman talking about?
Who, today, regularly invokes the memory of the Holocaust and all-related issues, for political gain? Answer: IsraHell.
Cliff you are a citing a blog whose sole purpose is to demonize Israel? Can you really consider all of that fact? You’re an academic, you should know better than that.
edan, you must be pretty old to claim this, and if so, you’ve lost your marbles, because you dont know history: “No Zionist that I know ever accepted anything from the Nazis and you would have to come up with some evidence for such a huge (and utterly stupid) claim.”
Here is the coin that commemorates Nazis and Jews operating in Palestine together. Lenni Brenner wrote about it.
link to tr.im
Search for Lenni Brenner’s book “51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis.”
It’s documented, edan. Do your homework.
telling the truth = “demonize Israel”
Hey Edan, either make a substantiated argument or GTFO. No one wants to listen to your incessant whining.
You’re not here to debate, you’re here to WHINE. Just like yonira.
If you can’t handle the ideas here, then simply, leave. If you’re just going to cry endlessly about antisemitism, Anti-Zionism, blah blah blah, then kindly f*#@ off.
There was exploitation, dummy.
You just don’t read. Get the ZioCrud out of your eyes.
In fact, it wasn’t ‘just’ exploitation – it was purposeful de-development and stagnation. Israel has tried so very hard to subjugate an entire people. That’s how it keeps itself on top, by controlling others. I can’t imagine why it would allow an independent Palestinian economy anyway. Just from a competitive point of view.
From Sara Roy’s book on Gaza’s (and Palestine in general) economic de-development by Israel:
Roy correctly identifies that such an independent Palestinian economy would pose a threat to Israel. Zionist colonialism desires the land.
Expropriation of land and dispossession of the owners.
Integration and externalization; and deinstitutionalization.
Roy states that these policies:
Some more, important excerpts from the book:
Don’t come in here and spout generalizations that we’ve all refuted already.
If you want to make a specific argument, then do it. Stop being such a goddamn coward, flinging around accusations of ‘hate’ and ‘propaganda’ when you don’t ever cite sources to back up your assertions.
Who’s the propagandist? The people here who cite mainstream NGOs, reports, etc. and the historical record? OR, complete idiots who rely purely on emotional rhetoric linked to their feelings of both inferiority AND supremacy?
You want to be both a victim, and a giant who lashes out at ‘enemies’. Enemies everywhere. ‘All anti-semites are anti-Zionist’.
Give me a f****** break. You are a clown. As I said, make a substantiated (CITE SOME GODDAMN SOURCES) argument, or get the hell off the blog.
Wah wah wah. Keep whining about ‘Jew’ this and ‘Jew’ that, you pathologically narcissistic troglodyte.
And you are a pathetic, insecure, insignificant “little jihadist”. Why wont you cite any organizations or authors who are NOT considered on the fringe? Historical record? You know jack shit about history. And why waste time looking for the proper documents when you deny even the most basic truths such as the fact that the mufti was a collaborator with the Nazis. When you try to refute well established truths ( the link was totally ridiculous) you end up looking like an even bigger ass.
As long as there are hypocritical, self-righteous assholes like yourself posting bullshit about Israel, there will be people like me to expose your idiocy.
Considered by whom, Edan? Established by whom?
It’s a funny thing about the stuff that “everybody knows,” which is that it usually turns out to be false. Particularly if it’s stuff that every Zionist knows.
Cradle to grave indoctrination doesn’t produce critical thinkers.
Sara Roy is not ‘the fringe’. You don’t even know who she is. You haven’t read her book. You haven’t provided any kind of proof to support your statement that Zionists didn’t ‘exploit’ the Palestinians/etc.
You’re just making baseless hysterical statements.
Expose WHAT? You haven’t countered anything I’ve said, retard.
I am not a ‘jihadist’. You call anyone who criticizes Israel those kinds of names, along w/ ‘Jew-hater’ and equating anti-Zionism w/ antisemitism.
IF YOU CAN MAKE A SPECIFIC ARGUMENT THEN DO SO.
I can’t believe how much time you waste trying to make yourself look smart Cliff? Are you sick of playing COD MW 2? feel you need to try to ‘change the world’
Its actually funny, the guy just fucking owned you, and then you go on a page long diatribe quoting shit you just read yesterday. Do you have any other ‘excellent blogs’ you could link to Cliff? You are really starting to sway my opinion on IsraHell.
Anyone who isn’t totally brainwashed by this progressive Israel hating bullshit can realize Edan is totally owning you Cliff. More isn’t always better, just because you spend countless amount of time trying to refute something, it doesn’t make you sound any smarter or more accurate.
Owned me with what??? All he said was that my sources were ‘fringe’.
Then he said the Mufti collaborated with the Nazis.
Yea, so did the Zionists.
The point of stating ‘so and so worked with’ the Nazis is to imply an ideological link. It’s to imply that whoever did so, supported the extermination of Jews.
There is so much dishonesty in his statement.
And I listed the facts. Did your fellow troll counter my argument? NO. He just REGURGITATED what he said earlier.
I wasn’t saying the Mufti never existed. I was attacking the assertions and context of edan’s statement w/ respect to the earlier comparison to the Zionist collaboration w/ the Nazis.
Do you even know what he and I are arguing about?
You reflexively support people who are in your ideological camp. Seriously, your intentions are transparent.
I have read the books I cite.
You have yourself so convinced, yonira. So make an argument for once.
Provide sources. Or shut the hell up.
Parrot him all you want. It doesn’t make a single one of his assertions, true.
Present an argument and we can debate. If all you’re going to do is cheerlead, then fuck off.
“progressive Israel hating”
Oh, so hating Israel is “progressive”, like civil rights and health care?
“Yea, so did the Zionists”
OK , please explain, prove, cite, whatever – how exactly did the Zionists collaborate with the Nazis? (without citing Brenner who has been exposed as a fruad, and without citing obscure letters) Was there any exchange of funds or weapons or anything of the sort? Were the Nazis themselves Zionists?
this should be good
yonira is so desperate to see a pro-Zionist argument, he goes into a humping frenzy whenever someone spouts any moldy hasbara line.
I love it – prove your point, but don’t cite any actual souces!
Actually, O Indoctrinated One, the Zionists didn’t collaborate with the Nazis because the Nazis turned down their offer. The Zionist terrorists came to the same conclusion that al-Husseini did: The enemy of my enemy is my ally.
In the case of the Zionist terrorists, the enemy was the British occupation. They offered to assist the Germans in their N Africa campaign if the Germans would supply them with arms. Germans declined.
In the case of al-Husseini, the enemy was the Zionist settlers backed by the British occupation. It is entirely reasonable that he would like to see the defeat of the British if the Germans would guarantee a sovereign Palestinian state.
al-Husseini did nothing different than the nation of Finland, who, stuck between two rival totalitarian forces, threw in their lot with Germany. But no one these days goes around painting hysterical devil horns on Finland as they do with “the Mufti”, who was a whole lot less help to the Germans than the Finns.
edan, the Zionists and Nazis loved each other so much, they made sure there was only a one-letter difference in their names! And that was only cause the Zionists had a Jewish accent, and mis-spoke “o” instead of “a”.
And if linguistic proof isn’t enough, they had a medal struck to commemorate the cooperation!
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
Aww, Cliff, don’t be so mean to Yonira! After all, she reminds me of a Bob Dylan song.
Cliff, please elaborate on this land phenomenon Roy is talking about.
Within months, the Arab sector became dispossessed of its most important natural resource, land, which included the country’s best agricultural areas: 95 percent of the “good” soil (of Mandatory Palestine), 64 percent of the “medium” soil, and 39% of the “poor” soil. Indeed, those Palestinians who became refugees as a result of the 1948 war possessed 80 percent of the territory and 72 percent of all cultivable land that fell to Israel
Where doe the Negev fall into this? Also the West Bank which was occupied by Jordan up until 1967. One of the main arguments from Anti-Zionists is that all of the water is now under the West Bank and Israel is stealing that water. You can’t have it both ways. You can throw stats at us all day about how 95% of the most arid and productive land was taken following the War for Independence by Israel, but it just doesn’t add up.
Also while you are arguing about the destruction of Palestinian development can you discuss higher education in Palestine prior to 1948, from 1948-1967 and following 1967? Would you agree that economic develop and higher education go hand in hand? Did you know that there were institutes for higher education Gaza and the WB prior to Israel’s occupation?
So keep on quoting verbatim some book you just read, whatever most of the people on here will buy, but Roy’s stats are bullshit. Can you corroborate any of these facts with anyone else? Is Roy arguing that the Negev is farm-able?
edan,
“(without citing Brenner who has been exposed as a fruad, and without citing obscure letters) Was there any exchange of funds or weapons or anything of the sort?”
Brenner exposed as a fraud by whom? Those who dislike his evidence? None of his evidence has been disproved, only disliked. A lot. The fact that he is an atheist Jew has been used against him. And yada-yada-yada.
Exchange of funds? How do you think Hitler got the money to start his war? Read The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black, MacMillan 1984 issue only. This has been discussed so much on this board, it’s your job to find the cites and read, not our job to waste time educating you. No one is interested in your challenges; we have better things to do with our time.
Edan: “Not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites but all anti-Semites are definitely anti-Zionist”
maybe you don’t realize it but a large fraction of the christian fundamentalist congregations, are in fact, anti-semitic. hagee and other “leaders” may have found a alliance with extreme zionism a convenient tool, but the rank and file are not, in fact, friends of Jews or judaism. Ultimately, they believe jewish faith is profoundly wrong and a majority see jews (as opposed to say, Israelis) just as you described them – a cabal, an elite, bent on dominating the values of true believers, a necessary “evil” with sinister undertones – necessary for now. The preaching heads may speak zionism’s language. But many of the believers – possibly a majority – will throw jews overboard in a heart beat, when the opportunity arises and circumstances dictate.
To know this, you should speak with people in the heartland of the US, places where churches proliferate and distrust of elites and secularism is the dominant sentiment. The believers see their values – and their way of life – as under assault. And they believe – even if you don’t hear it shouted from the roof tops – that jews are aligned with the aggressors, not with people like themselves.
So you hear zionism spouted from a cadre of ‘pro-christian” leaders. Dig a bit deeper and you won’t like what you find. Or, maybe you know, and the alliance is just a marriage of convenience for you too. After all, zionists believe that they are the destined winners in the ‘end of days”.
edan, and if you’re having a problem finding what Danaa is writing about, let me help you: go to jewsonfirst.org. Search for <>
Shoot, I must have invoked some html thing. Go to jewsonfirst.org and search their site for this search string: CUFI Obsession Ayalon Republican David Borg
And so-called Christian Zionists dont make a distinction between Zionists and Jews. They can deal with the fact that Catholics are Christians but that you can’t say all Christians are Catholics. Not so, in their minds, between Zionists and Jews. Zionists and Jews are the same. Hell, they dont even know the difference between Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative, much less the distinction that Zionism adds to the mix. They have no idea that you can be a Jew and not be a Zionist.
And I have no problem classifying you as evil and self hating. Obviously you have some unresolved personality issues if you think that 99% of those who share your heritage are evil.
Self hating?
You reveal yourself to be a clueless idiot, unable to distinguish between people and ideology. And if you were familiar with any post-Zionist Israelis who live in Israel, you wouldn’t be posting this tripe. Yes, they are a marginal minority. But, I don’t think any of them would reach the same idiotic conclusions as yours.
You’re a child, born and raised in the safety of your adoptive country. After all, hacks like you consider Israel to be the true and only homeland.
By the way, define “heritage”! Some schmuck in Boca Raton has as much in common with me as an idiot like you does. I see myself as an individual, a citizen of the world. I don’t think you can say the same about yourself. You’re not even an individual, but a brainwashed sheep.
You progressives know it all. This Paul Woodward is the same moron who said:
“Israel lobby fails to block key Obama intelligence appointment”
” Nowadays, its power is clearly waning. The appointment of veteran diplomat and uber-realist Chas Freeman as chairman of the highly influential National Intelligence Council is seen by many as a major setback for the lobby.”
link to thenational.ae
He’s just another propagandist paid by an Arab dictatorship.
As opposed to your favorite friend who helped build the lie for the invasion of Iraq, Achmed Chalabi? Or how about all the conservative politicians and businessmen who have had associations with the bin Ladens, Saddam Hussein, and the Saudi royal family? How many progressive politicians had failed business ventures that were funded by Saudi money?
You’re such a joke, Julian, I almost feel guilty about laughing at you. Low hanging fruit.
The Lobby went after Chas Freeman who was no propagandist for anybody but the USA. He had impeccable credentials, and what the Lobby did to him angered a wide swath of DC. It was a big mistake.
Oh my, “progressive” is now becoming the favorite epithet of our ziocaine addled crew of cheder drop-outs! Cause if there is one thing an American Zionist can’t stand, it’s progressives!
I notice Andrew Breitbart does that to, uses “progressive” as an epithet.
That was a theme at the CPAC weekend.
don’t forget that Israel’s ally in the 1st Lebanon War was the Maronites who were allied to the Nazis.