Naomi Klein, who is on the advisory board of the Free Gaza Movement, spoke in Toronto today. Some excerpts:
We will not let this carnage stand... The only response to illegal collective punishment is collective solidarity and action. That is what the humanitarian boats embodied.... Gazans live in an open-air prison sealed off from the world. These boats, these messages, they're like the messages passed between the prison bars. In addition to desperately needed aid and supplies, they are also messages of hope and solidarity that are saying, You are not alone, we are all connected.
Those boats and the movement they represent are unsinkable..
Israel is the clear and indisputable aggressor in this situation, having sent armed soldiers on to boats in international waters...
I like Naomi. Naomi’s cool. But she’s not telling anyone anything we didn’t know. Yes the action by Israel was outrageous and totally illegal. What else is new?
We’re going to step up the pressure? Great. I’m all for it. How are you going to accomplish that? I don’t have an answer. But we better get some kind of an answer pretty quick here. Another flotilla? I just don’t see that going anywhere. If it’s permitted to actually reach gaza–doubtful at best–it will be a small moral victory. Maybe it supplies some hope at a very desperate time and lets Palestinians know they are not alone. That is certainly a very worthy ambition.
But beyond these well meaning gestures, by a handful of exceptionally brave individuals, where are we? Where is this going? I don’t see any real plan. The israelis are strategists. They are strategizing around the clock. We have to strategize to beat them. It has to be a multi-pronged effort. Part non-violent and part violent struggle.
We have to do much more for example on the domestic front. Every street corner has its synagogue. These places are petri dishes for the israeli contagion. They are where it breeds and they have to be dealt with, one way or another.
Destruction of israeli property. Destruction of Israeli businesses. We have to cut Israel off completely from a cultural standpoint—no concerts, no academic meetings. This is going well…many many academics refuse to go anywhere near Israel but we have to turn off the flow completely. As far as terrorism in Israel, this is our friend. It makes Israelis want to leave and convinces others to stay away because it’s too dangerous. Right now it’s not dangerous at all and many are going to visit israel. We have to stop this. We have to dry up this swamp.
based off some of what you say, i think you’re nuts…
I’m sure you know how valuable your opinion is to me.
GodsChosen, I hate what Israel is doing as much as anyone else but the violence you’re preaching is way too much. This would harm the Palestinian cause more than it would harm Israel. Israel is destroying itself and needs no help. I’m thinking that maybe you are a settler in disguise and saying these words to show the pro-Palestinian side as violent people and disparage the whole Mondo clan. Synagogues are as petri dishes? You are way over the top with that and terrorism may be your friend but it isn’t mine.
Hi Walid,
I have heard your argument a great deal. I respect it but do not in any way agree with it. Israel is destroying itself? No. They have maintained a 100 to 1 kill ratio against the Palestinians. They lead a very high quality of life with every modern convenience. They have not lost a single penny of the constant multi-billion dollar stream of weapons, money, fawning and adulation from the US and are not likely to anytime soon. They are threatening nuclear annihilation against their neighbor and unlike Iran, they HAVE a nuclear arsenal. They are not destroying themselves but they DO pose a very real, very credible threat of destroying the human race in a nuclear conflagration. This is not something one plays games with. This is something you shut down and if they have to kill half the Israeli population to shut it down , I see that only as a bonus, because I don’t like Israelis and refuse to recognize any of their so-called rights, including the right to life or liberty.
I am Jewish. But even if i weren’t, I’d have the right to say that the synagogues are petri dishes of Israeli disease. That is precisely what they are. They are part of the Israeli machinery of death.
Most Jews, including those who are conscientious and pro-Palestinian don’t want to address this fact because it means taking action in their own back yard. It means standing up to the rabbis and other vermin and taking a zero tolerance approach to anything that reeks of pro-Israelism, from trips to Israel to fund drives, to support for the israeli state. The synagogues have to be called on it and called on it and harassed unto madness until they STOP supporting Israel and stop trying to hijack young Jewish minds and inculcate them into their terror operation.
I’m sorry but that just makes us as bad as them. There’s always a time when you think a battle against oppression is unwinnable without violence because the opposition is too strong, but every time the right side prevails without the need for violence.
We do need to confront the people who preach Israeli supremacy, but this can be done non-violently.We do need to take action, but not with violence. If the Israelis are indeed great strategists, then you know how violence will be portrayed (and in my opinion, rightly so).
GodsChosen reported for racism bordering on incitement to violence.
Every street corner has its synagogue … petri dishes for the israeli contagion … have to be dealt with, one way or another.
I’m jewish, so afraid that won’t work. If people want to believe judaic mumbo jumbo, rejected by all the great jews (who have always been atheist) i have no problem with it. I support people believig in the easter bunny. I have no beef with synagogues per se but draw a sharp line with their support for israel. that has to stop.
I would further add, that it is not only a duty of conscience to harass the synagogues about support for israel, it is also a matter of simple self-preservation.
As a Jew, I now have a giant target painted on my back. Who painted it there? The Israelis, that’s who! Every abominable crime they commit, all Jews run the risk of being held to account for.
And frankly, all Jews ought to be held to account for these crimes if we sit still and allow the synagogues and the rabbis and the mainline Jewish organizations to declare support for israel as an index of jewishness. Jews have a right to save themselves from going down with the moldering garbage scow known as israel. NO. We reject Israel!
Being Jewish is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. Your assertion was racist and very close to incitement to violence. I share your view about support for Zionism in Jewish communities and congregations, but action has to be specific and well-defined both for the sake of moral consistency and for the sake of efficacy. Statement’s like yours make it harder to convince people (including many decent non-Zionists) that anti-Zionism is not equivalent to anti-Semitism.
I don’t give a damn about what stupid people think. If they support israel, they are the enemy. If they support the massacre of a caged population they are the enemy.
This whole argument that we mustn’t give ammunition to the “hard liners” is preposterous. All supporters of Israel at this point are hard liners, lunatics, mental patients and vermin. Like the Nazis they emulate, they must be fought, not coddled.
Tell me about the target on your back. I am a Jew and an Israeli. I have made no secret of my views – in Israel or where I now live. There are things we, as Jews can do and say, that are much harder for our non-Jewish friends, and we have a duty to take advantage of that, but there are lines that even we may not cross.
Nonsense.
There are no lines we “may not cross”
That’s Dershowitz speak.
The duty now is to help the Palestinians. The Israelis are on their own. My suggestion to you is to leave. Get out of that toxic dump–the world is full of pretty places. You can’t possibly be happy there. Ilan Pappe finally left, after your countrymen threatened to murder his two sons.
Get out, before they close you in to keep their beloved Jewish majority. Before you become their prisoner.
You’re welcome to live with me for awhile, until you get your bearings.
Geez Shmuel, I’m surprised. Your last comment reeks of supremacy and otherness.
I hope you were being sarcastic, Dan. It’s hard to tell these days, and my sense of humour isn’t in the greatest shape right now.
Thanks for the invite GC, but I no longer live in Israel.
No lines we may not cross? Then you’ve gone off the deep end, my friend. Moral consistency is a sine qua non for any human rights struggle. If you lose that, then you’re no better than Dersh yourself.
Come on, Dan, this was really stupid. I am absolutely with Shmuel.
@GodsChosen, Your incendiary language is turning this whole debate sulphurous, how on earth is it meant to be good for both the collective jewish and palestinian people?, don’t you realise that by attacking an identity as you do, you will only drive it deeper, so that it becomes more obdurate, quite the opposite of your stated aims. I consider myself a non-zionist or an a-zionist, but to call your opponents ‘nazi’s’ or ‘vermin’, not only recycles anti-semitic tropes (weren’t the jews also called vermin?), but it also mirrors Israeli political rhetoric (the palestinians can ‘live like dogs’).
I’d much rather have this discussion with you Shmuel than have you talk the moderator into banning me. That DOES seem like a Dershowitz tactic and one I hope you’ll reconsider as I believe we are basically on the same side, though we probably have our differences. That’s normal.
i think you make a good point. I think the issue of moral consistency is interesting and it’s legitimate. It’s a reasonable argument. I don’t want to come down too hard on one side or the other. I DO think that the palestinians resorted to some pretty nasty actions at various times. Hijacked planes. Killed innocent people. i don’t believe they would have a movement or even exist as a struggling people today had they not gained exposure in the world through acts many of uf probably find distasteful if not reprehensible. Things are not always so easy. There is the further issue of effectiveness. you are convinced that the most moral struggle is the most effective. I don’t believe that is invariably the case. If a trade off should be made, what is the trade off? Should an entire people allow themselves to be wiped out before they commit an act of resistance that may kill innocent people? I don’t know. These are to me very very tough questions and not questions just for arm chair philosophers. they have a real meaning in terms of the struggle.
There are Jews. There’s no such thing as a Jewish people, as the delightful Israeli Shlomo Sand reminds us .
As to the comparison of israelis with Nazis, everybody I respect from Primo Levi to Albert Einstein to Desmond Tutu to Sara Roy to Yeshayahu Leibowitz makes the comparison often and forcefully, based on Israel’s behavior, so I feel I am in the best possible company in that regard. Israel’s mentality is absolutely equivalent in its dehumanizing intent. nor do I think the comparison bothers most israelis. While they feign outrage, they are secretly proud of the comparison. They actively cultivate it–that can scarcely be denied, from the loudspeakers they use to gather their victims in the town square,m to the guard towers and barbed wire, the reflex brutality, the forcing of victims to dance or play music for their entertainment, etc etc..it;s all there.
I guess I misunderstood what you were saying, Shmuel. This sentence:
“There are things we, as Jews can do and say, that are much harder for our non-Jewish friends, and we have a duty to take advantage of that, but there are lines that even we may not cross.”
I don’t understand this. Are you being sarcastic? What does this mean?
Albert Einstein , Desmond Tutu, Sara Roy and Yeshayahu Leibowitz , make appropriate careful analogies in specific political contexts. They certainly don’t deploy the language you do.
GC. I would be happy to have this discussion with you – I agree that it is an important one – but I have to get to work now. Just another quick word on having reported you. I did not ask the moderator to ban you, and have no wish to see you banned. Many here have been reported for “abuse” and have not been banned. I felt that your comment warranted a stronger response than discussion and disagreement. And as long as we’re on the subject of consistency, I have reported others for similar remarks about Arabs and Muslims. Allowing a remark like this to go by simply because we are “on the same side” would have, at the very least, undermined my credibility.
Dan,
The entire premise of this blog is that Weiss and Horowitz can (and therefore must) say things that are much harder for McCormack and Christopherson to say. It’s not about being better than non-Jews; it’s about recognising the fact that we are more convincing and our words carry greater weight when we criticise Israel and Jews. The fact that I am also an Israeli lends even more weight to my criticism (as others often point out here). Where do you see “supremacy and otherness” in that?
Shmuel,
As I said, I misunderstood. Thank you for clarifying, and I’m sorry if I offended you.
Shmuel: “There are things we, as Jews can do and say, that are much harder for our non-Jewish friends, and we have a duty to take advantage of that, but there are lines that even we may not cross.”
Shmuel, I pay close attention to your moderate views, so I would greatly appreciate it if you would elaborate on your meaning in the sentence above. What kinds of things can Jews say and do that are harder for non-Jews? Why do you think that is so?
“We” can cross lines that others cannot (but what if they dare to do so?), but “even we” cannot cross some lines? What, exactly, do Jews “have a duty to take advantage of”? Is this a new kind of noblesse oblige, assumed by a modernly privileged ethnicity?
I’m not finding fault with your opinion here. I would truly like to understand it.
No sweat, Dan :-)
Shmuel,
I’m tired and I probably shouldn’t even be posting. Again, I am sorry.
And thank you :)
I understand that and agree with you e that Jews in general and Israelis in particular are vital to the struggle and their words carry–for better or worse–considerable weight and generally inoculate us from the most ludicrous charges of anti-Semitism (though not always in my case).
Not troubled about being reported either really. I see it as inevitable that I’ll be banned again. My presence here seems to be a seasonal thing. I say stuff that offends people. I don’t get off on offending people but I’m not exactly a shrinking violet and my contempt for all things Israeli tends to come out sooner rather than later.
I think I was less surprised than many about the attack on the flotilla. I see the Israelis as pretty much total savages, (with a very few notable exceptions of course. Amira Hass is probably one of the 19 greatest women who ever lived)
Getting back to the point, I’m hugely proud of the Gaza flotilla and what they HAVE accomplished, at horrible cost. i don’t want to minimize it but i have grave doubts that the struggle can be won exclusively through non-violence.
Is this a new kind of noblesse oblige, assumed by a modernly privileged ethnicity?
I really do have to leave, Homer, but see my explanation to Dan above. It has nothing to do with noblesse or privilege. We are just more convincing and less susceptible to smears of anti-Semitism. At yesterday’s protest over Gaza and the flotilla, I was interviewed for a left-wing paper (often accused of anti-Semitism for its positions on Palestine). I was interviewed specifically because I am Jewish and Israeli, and you can be damn sure they will give that prominence, when they quote my remarks in support of BDS and about Israel being a racist state. Is that privilege? It certainly doesn’t feel like it.
Shmuel is right, it is clearly apparent that jewish dissent has, and still is effective in shaping discourse within Israel and in the diaspora because it goes to the heart of it’s raison d’etre – much more so then dissent or criticism outside jewish communites which Israel see’s as wholly anti-semitic and not concerned with the safety of jewish lives. Israeli dissent is probably much more effective then jewish criticism outside of Israel, because it’s ‘in here’, not ‘over there’, and lines that can’t be crossed are one’s of universal human rights and one’s own ethics. .
GC, another disagreement coming up: You believe that it was the violence of the Palestinians like the hijackings and the suicide bombs that put them on the map. I believe the exact opposite happened in that it demonized them in eyes of most of the world and even worse, it gave an alibi to Israel’s continued oppression, occupation and additional theft. When things were getting too quiet with the Palestinians, Israel went out of its way to provoke something or other just to get the Palestinians riled up so it could continue with its occupation. With Uncle Sam on its side, Israel doesn’t give a damn about world opinion. Your way of getting the job done would only prolong the agony of the occupation.
Shmuel: “It’s not about being better than non-Jews; it’s about recognising the fact that we are more convincing and our words carry greater weight when we criticise Israel and Jews.”
I’m not sure that the latter half of this sentence is entirely true. More convincing to whom? Greater weight with whom? If non-Jewish criticism in America of Israel, and Jewish supporters of Israel, carries so little weight, why is there such a concerted effort on the part of the Jewish community to suppress any such non-Jewish criticism, using the ad hominem attacks we’ve come to know so well? Isn’t the reason likely to be that non-Jewish criticism is considered to be far more threatening to Israel than that from fellow tribesmen?
As to the part about (not) “being better than non-Jews”, I think you have a genuine perception problem there. A great deal of Jewish behavior in this area (with you excluded) leads non-Jews to have a different view.
GodsChosen, in the future please omit any suggestion that you advocate or favor violence – against anyone. If you would do that, I would be willing to consider your opinion on other matters.
BenjaminS: “Shmuel is right, it is clearly apparent that jewish dissent has, and still is effective in shaping discourse within Israel and in the diaspora ….”
You and Shmuel are probably right about this part. But in America Jews are only about two percent of the population, albeit a highly significant two percent. And America is still a quasi-democracy where votes count.
My feeling is that in this country most non-Jews tend to give heaviest weight to the opinions on Israel expressed by other non-Jews. They assume that Jews are pro-Israel and that any exceptions are rare anomalies. But if they hear someone they know to be non-Jewish publicly express criticism of Israel, they sit up and take notice. They want to know how dare he do that.
That’s how it has been for a good many years now – until recently.
But things have begun to change among American non-Jews in their views about the permissibility of criticizing Israel. As this trend accelerates, it is perhaps inevitable that Jews will lose their privileged place in the discourse. All that seems to have many American Jews uncomfortable (as it always has), because when non-Jews demand it the special relationship with Israel will be ended.
Homer,
The fact that my criticism of Israel (or Jewish organisations) is more convincing to Jews and non-Jews alike than the criticism voiced by my non-Jewish fellow activists has been my overwhelming experience. That is not to say that non-Jewish criticism is ineffective, just that Jewish self-criticism is generally more effective (all other things being equal). Israel and its supporters are afraid of any and all criticism, and they go after Jewish critics with a particular vengeance (trust me).
As for the my “perception problem”, you may be right, but I don’t think Phil or Adam run this blog because they believe that they are “better than non-Jews”. Phil certainly believes that he belongs to a privileged class, but his approach is certainly not one of “noblesse oblige”.
“I’m jewish, so afraid that won’t work.”
Whoa, fella, whoa! It doesn’t work that way! Not at all. Now listen carefully, cause I’m only gonna tell you once. As Jews, we don’t get to call for anybody’s destruction on that basis m’okay? Not the Arabs, and not the Jews.
And besides, “I’m Jewish” in a comment on the web doesn’t mean anything.
Tell me where you stand as a human being first, and you can support it with something from your religion, but the pass you are asking for, “I’m Jewish” doesn’t mean crap.
I’m not able to do that. I believe Israel should be attacked. Iraq was attacked an Iran is threatened daily with attack for FAR less than what Israel has been guilty of for over 60 years. The special dispensation they have for their criminality should end.
mooser
..never called for the destruction of the Jews and the conflation of the Jews with Israel is a cheap hasbara trick you are certainly above.
I do not support Israel’s so-called right to exist because it is predicated on the destruction of the Palestinians. If a means can be found to demolish israel non-violently, that would certainly be preferable. If violence is required, as I strongly suspect, I can not condemn it if it ultimately brings relief to the Palestinians. The Israelis I don’t care about. I’ve said that many times.
You’re not making sense, GC. Whether or not Israel should be attacked has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal and colossally stupid policies adopted toward those other two countries. As for the suggestion itself, WADR, are you out of your gourd?
“but there are lines that even we may not cross”
Shmuel is saying (and quite rightly, in my opinion) that these are lines we cannot cross as moral human beings, not because we are Jewish.
Thanks, Mooser. That is exactly what I meant.
“Phil certainly believes that he belongs to a privileged class,”
Psst, you have to read Phil’s posts on that in a mirror, so you can read the secret Yiddish messages. He uses that “privileged class” thing as an ironic rhetorical goad. Besides, he would never be a member of any class which would accept him.
Whether or not Israel should be attacked has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal and colossally stupid policies adopted toward those other two countries.
Shmuel
..not sure I’m following you. I thought that Iran’s supposed “threats” to its neighbors were precisely the argument given for attacking them. Israel has made more severe, more consistent threats to its neighbors not to mention repeatedly attacking its neighbors. Why shouldn’t they be targeted militarily for this belligerence? Any other country would be.
Do you support imposing sanctions against israel of the sort being contemplated for Iran? How about a naval blockade to starve the Israelis into submission? I would support that 100% Would you? How long should efforts that cause absolutely no harm and no alteration in Israel’s standard of living be attempted before something more serious is contemplated or should methods that cause no harm to Israel be the only methods ever entertained? I’m curious.
GC: I thought that Iran’s supposed “threats” to its neighbors were precisely the argument given for attacking them.
I don’t think attacking Iran is justified, and I although such an attack against Israel might be justified, it would be incredibly dangerous and stupid (as it would be in the case of Iran).
I support sanctions of the kind that were used against South Africa, although in the case of Israel the first, most obvious and most effective thing to do would be for the US to stop supporting Israel financially and politically. I do not believe in “starving” any civilians “into submission”. If I did, I would have no problem with the siege on Gaza, except for the minor point of whether Gazan civilians actually “deserve” it, or not. That’s why we have international humanitarian law and fundamental human rights.
Sorry about the tags. The first two lines are GC’s and the rest is mine.
Shmuel, I would wager that you are “more convincing” in these matters, in part at least, because you are more articulate and thoughtful than most. My reservations on that point still stand, if only because non-Jews are potentially so much more numerous in their aggregated effectiveness.
On this we agree most definitely: Phil and Adam don’t run this blog because they believe that they are better than non-Jews. The “perception problem” I referred to – to the extent it exists – is a broad-based one, and I wasn’t applying it to anyone I know of on this blog.
I do think that non-Jews should show more spine and not be intimidated by asinine accusations of anti-Semitism. In any case, I think the Israelis hurt themselves with these charges. Most rational people find them distasteful in the extreme. I actually think the more Israelis toss around the term anti-semitism, the more enemies they make. People are sick of these vicious killers trying to play the victim card.
Reported for inciting violence (He is here way too long already).
Your friends just attacked an aid convoy and massacred civilians. Don’t you think just MAYBE eGuard, you ought to direct your indignation to THAT outrage rather than something I said that you didn’t happen to like, you simpering hypocrite?
Yup, he should be reported.
Or maybe he is just trying to demonststrate that Jews can espouse extreme positions? Well guess what, we already know that.
It’s all the same, chosen. If you call for the death of Jews or Israelis, you will call for the death of Arabs or Palrstinians.
It’s all the same, chosen. If you call for the death of Jews or Israelis, you will call for the death of Arabs or Palrstinians.
Mooser June 1, 2010 at 9:26 am
Pardon me..i think that statement it utter nonsense.
I’ve reported him several times for several way-over-the-line comments. All we can do is report each new provocation. I feel certain he is an hasbarist agent provocateur.
each new provocation?
Honestly, Colin. You sound like Dershowitz.
Chosen, by popular demand you must now prove you are not a hasbarist agent provocateur (aka troll). You must give the secret password and show the communal handshake. Are you carrying one of the secret artifacts (e.g., a wine bottle cork) in your pocket?
You know, the “inciting violence” thing is pretty kooky when you think about it. It’s the kind of charge a country like Iran drags out to silence opinions they don’t care for. Should inciting violence, even if the charge is legitimate, be grounds for banning someone? Arresting someone? I don’t think so. Just as I think the criminalization of stupid people who deny the holocaust is counterproductive. People should speak their mind. This is a violent, brutal conflict, involving a lot of bloodshed. Let’s quit trying to prettify it.
Whether he’s a troll or for real, he’s a gift to the hasbarists (to the extent that this blog matters). Calling for the killing of Israeli civilians is both immoral and stupid. I guess pro-terror types can’t be swayed by the moral argument, so I’ll stick with the argument that it is stupid. There’s zero chance that the US will fight Israel. It’s not going to happen and by fantasizing in adolescent fashion about terrorist attacks we should be supporting or applauding you just give ammo to the hasbarist side. I’ve already seen posts purporting to show that the Muslims in this flotilla were chanting “Kill the Jews”. If that holds up it’s a PR disaster (and also a moral disaster, but I’m sticking to the pragmatic side of the argument). Those of us here know perfectly well that there’s just as much or more fanatical hatred on the Israeli side, but we just don’t hear that in the US press, or not nearly as much. Talking about terrorism or engaging in violent fantasies is the best possible way to discredit the cause of pro-Palestinian activism.
This is so obvious I think anyone who can’t see it is either a troll or (perhaps more likely) is just being self-indulgent in a very perverse way.
‘ We have to stop this. We have to dry up this swamp ‘,
yes and Never Again should mean not to anyone, ever again, and with the virus of War, Hatred and Vengeance infecting too many already, ‘solutions’ for mass-muder based on mass-murder will only generate a new cycle.
I think you fail to see where the whole Zion-circus is weak, history is against it and the whole house of cards could be brought down, all they need is some useful self-fulfilling diversions like a bit of Joooooooo hate to take the pressure off their ‘narrative’.
Victims don’t Learn, Perpetrators Learn but alas only when the bodies pile up so high even the lies can’t disguise the stench.
GC being a American Jew makes you a perpetrator like being British makes me a perpetrator so learn. If you are as you state in your comments and not some Ziobot trying the incitement game ( UK plc used that a lot, it’s very effective ) then all you need to do is get a grip a use your basic humanity as a guide, try an anger management outlet, smash inanimate objects, join a death metal band whatever just don’t be a Zionist.
Hi droog. no one wants to take up the matter of the Vietnamese–not a perfect but certainly useful analogy.
After they killed 58,000 invaders, the invaders left. The case is hardly an isolated one. If the Vietnamese had tried to deal with the US non-violently, we would have completed the task of exterminating them with napalm and high explosives.
Especially galling when ones considers the US won the vietnam war in the early 40s. The Vietnamese also beat the French and the Chinese ( after a thousand year fight ), I don’t recall them calling for all Americans to be wiped from the face of the earth. Whereas you could make a rational case for the necessity of military action, any debate is pointless if all interaction inevitably leads to a ‘kill em all’ Zio-talkbacker response. I can see it’s winding people up and very possibly because it’s a cliche hasbara technique of trying to make black into white with a plausible hook.
droog..i think the issue of violence os complicated. I don’t subscribe to the “kill all the ragheads, jews, whatever” solution nor the conclusion that the path of non-violence is the only legitimate and successful route.
I DO find it ironic that the very people who express shock at the thought of attacking israel are the ones who are constantly calling on the US to be “even-handed.” We should be very clear about this. If the US were “even-handed” it would subject israel to the same treatment it subjected Iraq to, for far less egregious behavior. In other words, an “even-handed” approach to Israel would mean bombing their country flat, dragging Netanyahu out of his hiding place, staging a mock trial and then hanging him.
That’s why I never advocate an “even-handed” approach to Israel–that’s too harsh, too cruel.
Let’s wait and see what the limp and racist NATO is going to do tomorrow when it convenes for an emergency meeting.
If nothing is done to curb Israel’s piracy, then it will become all too clear that NATO was created and exists for the mere purposes of serving the interests of the white Christian Europe and America. Does anyone remember the League of Nations that later morphed into what is today known as the United Nations? Well, it’s the same shtick.
Then NATO will fall apart, because the second biggest military in NATO will simply withdraw from it.
Avi, isn’t Israel somehow aligned with the NATO. Not a member but represented. So will Israeli IDF forces be present?
Given that the UNSC just voted to condemn Israel, the NATO meeting looks to be Verrrry Interesting.
The synagogues are certainly a breeding ground for this kind of Nazi-ism and all those so-called liberal Democrats who cover for these terrorists should be eradicated (non-violently).
Debonnaire- So what do you propose to do with/to the synagogues?
Certainly not what Zionists do with mosques. That is to say, desecrate them and set fire to them.
Install dancefloors consisting of multi-colored lit squares, and put a mirrored ball around the Eternal Light, and turntables in the Ark.
And then it’s Shabbos Night Fever, baby. Do the Hustle! Yes Sir, I can Boogie
Debonnaire, it wasn’t that long ago that the same thing was being said of mosques and of Muslim fundamentalism and people in America began making life miserable for any Muslim. Saying these things about synagogues is not any better.
Yeah, but the problem is, what was said about American mosques is largely false, and what Debonnaire says about American synagogues is largely true. Most synagogues do send money (and warm bodies) to Israel, which is then used to inflict pain and misery on the Palestinians.
Most of the audience here is Jewish. They’ve seen exactly what we’re talking about — the hate speech against Arabs, the “divine right” to the Holy Land, etc. etc.
Chaos,
And if it were “largely true” about American, or European, or Palestinian mosques, would an assertion like GodsChosen be acceptable?
I am painfully aware of the problem of support for Zionism – and even the worst attrocities of Zionism- in organised Jewish communities around the world. This is not the way to address it.
I gather you like the synagogues. My girlfriend loves em. Says she feels at peace there or some crap.
I made it very plain that people’s religious or spiritual convictions are nobody’s damn business and everyone should feel comfortable following their inclinations. If you want to go to a Pentacostal church, that’s fine. Mazeltov, as far as I’m concerned. but if the Pentacostal preacher starts telling you that blacks ought to be hung from trees and why don’t you chip in for the KKK barbeque they are holding–again, I draw the line. That is NOT protected speech. Punching the bastard in the face is a better response, in my view.
You gather absolutely nothing GC. Up the revolution.
At least you got out of Israel. Good on you for that.
(for the best probably, as my place is quite cramped and i was already worried about just how I’d accommodate you, though a promise is a promise.)
If it were “largely true” that US mosques were taking up funds to send to Abu Nidal for the express purpose of killing Jews in Israel, then the mosques would all be shut down at once and the congregations thrown in prison.
Why the double standard, Shmuel?
How important is Israel as a Jewish state to the various sects of Judaism? How often does Israel come up in services at synagogue or at Jewish summer camps? In what context does it come up?
I am curious.
Why the double standard, Shmuel?
The double standard is not mine, but that of US society.
Good question dan and I’d be lying if i said I spent much time in the synagogue. I have friends who go. I’m somewhat informed on the matter and it seems that selling israel to Jewish attendees is an absolutely incessant and obsessive undertaking.
We also have a lot of bizarre and bloodthirsty rituals, for example Purim, where Jewish children hang Arabs in effigy and learn valuable object lessons like queen ester’s righteous massacre of thousands of civilians. This is all seen as quite innocuous good fun by most Jews i know. I only really got round to understanding what all the Purim games were about as an adult. Disturbing, to say the least.
And what is Passover if not a ritual celebration renewing the ancient enmities between Jew and Arab? No one can talk about this but guess what. I just did anyway. maybe eGuard can have me banned once Phil wakes up tomorrow.
Must run. Goodnight.
I find GC’s language hot’n'spicy and I don’t go along with his his call to arms, but I wouldn’t go so far as asking to have him banned because he does represent an opinion that is shared by many. I can say that some mosques like those with the “special” Friday sermons were breeding grounds for fundamentalism thinking, especially among the very poor and in the US eyes were closed on a few madrassas that served the same purpose simply because they were sponsored by Saudis. As to his opinion about the spoonfeeding that is going on, there is still a call by Jews everywhere for the “next year in Jerusalem” and of the 5 or 6 Arab armies that wanted to wipe out the Jews, the birthright freebie program and so on. So GC is not totally wrong about what is going on but he is wrong about punching the rabbis in the face.
Walid, me thinks you are an impostor.
“Walid, me thinks you are an impostor.”
Please explain..
And who are you Dan Kelly?
I can vouch for the fact that Walid is a long-time contributor at Mondoweiss but I don’t recall seeing your name before today. Am i correct peeps or do i have a bad memory?
GC’s language is over the top. He made a comment about bombing Tel Aviv and “the jews” and I challenged him on it, and said he was a new contributor – I was much gentler than above and he said something about free speech and not being an Israeli plant. An overreaction I thought.
I wouldn’t be surprised to hear shortly that Mondoweiss is a hotbed of anti-semitism, quoting comments such as Godschosen.
I don’t care if he’s pro-Palestinian or not. If he’s a bigot, he needs to be reported and banned. It’s self-defence for Mondoweiss. See MFA, it is possible to exercise self-defense without killing!
I’m curious too, Dan, please explain.
Please do explain, Dan.
The flags.
I agree with Sumud that GC’s language could harm this site by providing evidence to the anti-Semitism hunters. And speaking of violence in the abstract is one thing, but actually advocating violence in today’s totalitarian climate is dangerous.
Nonetheless, his views, while more extreme than the norm here, serve a valuable purpose in helping us define the boundaries of acceptable opposition to the Zionist state. If we think GC goes too far, it helps us define how far is too far and how far we are willing to go.
GC’s language is over the top. He made a comment about bombing Tel Aviv and “the jews”
Stop right there..that;s a lie. I did call for the bombing of Tel Aviv. Somehow though it’s acceptable for israel to threaten a nuclear attack on Iran on a weekly basis after already attacking every country in the region except Cypress, with a spectacular loss of civilian life. The double standard reeks. THAT is bigotry, Sumud.
potsherd
Where do the supporters of Israel NOT find “anti-semitism”? Holocaust victims who oppose israel are “anti-Semites” Desmond Tutu is an anti-Semite. Jimmy Carter is an anti-semite.
You are actually going to restrict speech about Israel based on what these ludicrous imbeciles think? You’re allowing them to define the parameters of acceptable speech?
(the people who scream “anti-semite I’m calling “imbeciles” not Jimmy Carter, just to be clear)
“Most synagogues do send money (and warm bodies) to Israel,”
No, individual Jews in America desire to send these things to Israel, and have organised facets of their synagogues to do it. When the American Jews don’t want to give these things to Israel, watch how fast the synagogues drop them.
You got it backwards: The members run the synagogues, not the other way round. Judaism has had no disciplining power since they let us out of the ghettos.
And it may surprise you, but people can leave synagogues, or even form their own.
BTW, my synagogue is going to combine Jewish liturgy with Gospel music, with me as Cantor and organist.
mooser
I’m sure you are much more plugged in to the synagogue vibe than I am these days. Are you aware of a single synagogue in the United States that has taken an overtly pro-Palestinian position?
I mentioned this to that birdbrain richard silverstein who angrily declared that synagogues are not the place for political platforms (though of course, rabid support for Israel doesn’t count apparently)
Then he banned me.
Again, colonialism has its own rewards, and seems to be a reward in itself to many people. You don’t have to be Jewish to love colonialism, oppression, intransigence, and dispossession.
I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with critical discussion of religions. Just think what they say about Islam! Not that I think that Islam or Xtianity should be immune from critical comment.
How I comfort myself inside my own Protestant mental island is by thinking that all religious discourse involves endless interpretation and reinterpretation, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
Have you really seen with your own eyes Jewish children being encouraged to hang Arabs in effigy in mem. Esther R.? The thought of innocent children being turned into little demons in this fashion would indeed be a sign of a turn for the worse.
MHughes976 June 1, 2010 at 11:04 am
Of course, mhughes! Indeed, a Purim is not a Purim without the ritual hanging of Hayman..supposedly the evil Arab enemy of the Jews. I did it..we all did it. It’s fun!
A Purim party without the hanging of Hayman? Impossible! That would be like Christmas without the tree. We also celebrate Ester’s vindictive rampage–a glorious episode of genocide that the bible holds up for our approval. Jewish kids are schooled in this stuff and I hate to say it but it’s a small wonder MORE of them don’t turn into homicidal maniacs.
GC,
I grew up in a number of Orthodox communities, studied in a couple of yeshivas and have frequented many Orthodox and Haredi synagogues and parties on and around Purim (in 3 or 4 different countries). I have never seen anyone hang Haman (or anyone else) in effigy. If the custom still exists (I have heard that it once did in some communities), it is certainly not widespread or an integral part of the holiday.
As for the festival itself, it does not celebrate the slaughter (mentioned in the Book of Esther), but the deliverance of the Jews of ancient Persia from their planned annihilation. To celebrate the death of God’s creatures – even of enemies – would run counter to explicit Jewish tradition (sources available upon request).
MHughes,
I have spent most of my adult life engaging in critical discussion of religion (particularly my own). GC’s remarks do not fall in that category.
Sumud, I’ve been posting here for going on three years. I was a regular poster (daily) a while back, and now I post intermittently. Frankly, I can only take so much of this (the I/P situation) at a time. It eats at my soul. Thus, I have to put it down for a while, and go smell the roses, if you know what I mean.
Walid, I apologize for suggesting you might be an impostor. I don’t always follow your logic, but then I don’t always follow my own logic, so that’s no surprise.
I read a lot about false flag ops and the workings of agent provocateurs and psyops. I guess it sometimes conditions me to not trust anyone on message boards. I imagine I read too much into things at times.
Anyway, that’s enough of that. Best wishes to everyone.
Sickening and ridiculous!
U.S. blocks Security Council criticism of Israeli raid
It’s obviously no surprise, and lends credence to the argument that nonviolent and “legal” mechanisms simply are not working in bringing peace to the Palestinians.
What else can be done?
This kind of thing that drives the Palestinians insane..The US is really rubbing it in.
“… The Obama administration refused to endorse a statement that singled out Israel, and proposed a broader condemnation of the violence that would include the assault of the Israeli commandos as they landed on the deck of the ship.”
I guess you weren’t surprised either, TGIA. By the above statement, we can conclude that the US agreed with what Israel did, that it had a full right to board the ships in international waters, and that the commandos reacted in self-defense.
America should worry more for its soldiers’ safety from these positions the US is assuming in the UNSC than from what Petraeus was talking about.
This also confirms that Israel does absolutely nothing that has not been first discussed and agreed to by the US. America since 2006 is obsessed with wiping out Hamas that the majority of Palestinians voted for and likewise for Hizbullah that is supported by 80% of the Lebanese.
This also confirms that Israel does absolutely nothing that has not been first discussed and agreed to by the US.
How do you arrive at that conclusion?
You have made this assertion on more than one occasion.
I sense, Walid, that you are here to steer culpability away from Israel and its agents in the United States and onto the amorphous “America,” a la Chomsky denying the power of the lobby.
Chomsky has begun to see that it is indeed a tail-wagging-the-dog scenario. When will you see the light?
Dan, your criticism of Walid is off-target. It seems highly likely that certain high officials in the Obama administration, sympathetic to the view that the isolation of Hamas must be maintained, were privy to plans for Israel’s attack (with the erroneous assumption that there would be little bloodshed).
Perhaps it is you who is “denying the power of the lobby.” Israel knows that its Lobby still controls what Obama is free to do vis-a-vis the Palestinians. Who is that guy we were told “has Obama’s back”?
You got me figured wrong, Dan, I love the US and its people and half my family is American and proud of it but this does not prevent me from criticizing America when I think I should; I criticize Arab countries even more. I also happen to like Jews because I feel they are the closest people to being like Arabs in both their good and evil sides. I don’t care what Chomsky thinks and will continue believing that the US is “using” Israel because it’s its bouncer in the area. If you followed events in the area, you’d have seen that the 2006 war on Lebanon was ordered up by the US and when Olmert wanted out after 5 or 6 days, he was told by the US and Arab countries to continue the war to finish off Hizbullah. It was the US that ordered up the siege on Gaza after it failed to overthrow Hamas with Dahlan and it was the US that had the Europeans and Arabs cut off the funding to Gaza, not Israel and it was US pressure that had the Egyptians close off Rafah during the war on the Gaza and it’s the US that’s now building the shamefull underground wall.
America is big and powerful and does nothing that it doesn’t want to do. If it is taking positions favourable to Israel, it’s because it wants to and not because of the vote or the bribing lobby. You saw how America reacted when Israel started criticizing its President. You’ll see how America’s attitude towards Israelk will change in a few years when the oil runs out or America’s dependence on it stops. I assure you I’m not here to steer anything away from Israel that I consider evil.
You are seeing only what you want to see.
Hi Dan, I agree with Walid here, I’ll try again to find a link to Rothschilds letter ( the one that mentions the ‘strange human barrier’ ). It is the roadmap for the British plan to control the region and a blueprint for the last 90 years of bloodshed, it is also the same fundamental structure America has used, as the US basically now run the ex-british empire.
Niether W or myself regard this as an excuse for the actions of the Zion-circus, this is not to deny the power of the Lobby over American politics and media culture, they have been permitted to do so and remain in the position due to expediency. The whole game is set up to last to the end of Peak Oil and after that America suddenly and mysteriously won’t care anymore either way, and having some damn Jooooos to blame for any blowback will be useful.
Sorry, Dan, I see I was wrong: You were right in emphasizing the importance of Israel and its agents in the U.S. in determining American foreign policy. I think Walid and droog have the wrong idea about the primary direction of influence, as anyone should readily see by observing Israel’s behavior.
Hi Homer,
think about in terms of Strategy and Tactics, although the Lobby has tactical influence, the grand strategy and goals have not changed since the early part of the last century. America is not neck deep in the cess pit of ME politics and interminable wars out of some love for or mythical powers of Jooooooos. America will not see its children coming home in coffins for the Lobby, it will accommodate coffins for the Oil without which you would ‘cease to exist’ ( to use the zionist frame of reference ). WASP America, like WASP Britain would trust a colonialist outpost over anything Arab or Muslim when the chips are down. This is all about when the last Oil left on the planet is in the Gulf and the whole world goes mad to get it.
agree with Walid. The Flotilla attack was a major terrorist operation by israel and it’s difficult to imagine the US was entirely in the dark about it. We supply the weapons, we protect israel from Goldstone and any other unpleasantries and on and on. The US is entirely culpable as we see from the response following this massacre. The israelis are still illegally holding international hostages incommunicado. ANY other country would be given a VERY threatening ultimatum to release them at once or face dire consequences.
Hi walid. I mostly agree with you but take sort of a midway approach. I don’t think it’s fair to deny that Congress is cowed by the lobby and their careers and future can be shattered should they express anything less than enthusiasm for Israel’s conduct. That’s not paranoia, it’s simply a fact. That said, I agree completely with the rest of your points about US foreign policy and Israel. As Finkelstein said ‘I don’t see people like Dick Cheney being pushed around by the Israel lobby.’
As Finkelstein said ‘I don’t see people like Dick Cheney being pushed around by the Israel lobby.’
I believe the only instruction Cheney ever takes is from his boss, Satan.
The Lobby is useful to keep democracy in line with the strategic goals, otherwise they would just have to say ‘it’s all about the oil’, sorry maam your boy died and we set light to the world because we couldn’t get off our asses an develop a better energy supply.
Israel cannot continue as bouncer without an all-denying mythology in American minds, the Lobby keeps everyone on-message and yet the right people could end it tomorrow by directly linking Israel with American casualties. The Lobby is a brick in the wall that serves to keep True Democracy at bay, the Geostrategic facts and goals are what drives the whole scam.
Walid, we’ll agree to disagree. I don’t wish to go through all the reasons why this is a “tail-wagging-the-dog” scenario. It’s been done ad nauseum here. Best wishes.
No, the US let the condemnation go forward!
link to cnn.com
God’s Chosen, Habibi, it is okay to be alienated from your community. As a self described “race traitor and de-tribalized de-racinated defector from the ruling white male American killer class,” I understand the feeling. But we should be careful what we advocate when we are really angry. Calling for violence against your own people loses you credibility. Even the Natorei Karta do not advocate violence against Zionists. There are Americans, including one of Jewish origin, who are so angered by their society that they have converted to Islam and joined Al Qaeda. There are Arabs so alienated by their society that they have completely defected, changed religions and even become Zionists. This is most unfortunate. Being angry with your family is OK. Condemning its misdeeds and working for justice is excellent, but calling for the destruction of its property and harassment of it’s synagogues is going to weird people out. It also poisons the movement for peace and justice.
Calling for violence against your own people loses you credibility
homingpigeon June 1, 2010 at 5:20 am
The Jews are not a people. The Israelis are not us in any way shape or form. They eat different food, speak a language I haven’t the faintest interest in learning, and have nothing to do with my life. Most of them hold opinions I find repulsive.
The struggle already IS a violent struggle. Every day in Palestine is a violent struggle. You can’t airbrush the violence from the picture. It may be upsetting to sensitive viewers, but the fact is that when the Palestinians were launching successful attacks on Israel, they had a bargaining chip. It was a very weak bargaining chip. It hardly leveled the playing field but it leveled it SLIGHTLY. The Palestinians were able to say “we can hurt you. Not much. but some.”
They have lost the ability to inflict any harm on Israel whatsoever. The quassams are a joke, despite Israel’s idiotic play acting about how upset they are and how the land thieves of Sderot are “terrorized.” The only people being terrorized are the Palestinians. They have to fight back.
“It may be upsetting to sensitive viewers, but the fact is that when the Palestinians were launching successful attacks on Israel, they had a bargaining chip.”
This kind of reasoning works only if you are resigned to the fact that nobody cares about the Palestinians, and that the only option they have open to them is violence to defend themselves, otherwise they will simply be forced totally off the land, or imprisoned, or destroyed. In fact, this is the SAME reasoning that Israel itself has been using since its creation, basically, and even more so now that extreme right-wingers, with their total scorn for human rights and justice, have taken power.
I agree with you in that we have no right to dictate to the Palestinians or the Lebanese (or the Iranians if this idiocy and threatening keeps going full train) how they should resist, and indeed, when your back is up against the wall it is very easy to feel that lashing back is the only choice you have left – and, Israel has been forcing them into this corner for a very long time – it’s a trap, and has always been used against them to illustrate how they are inherently “violent”, and to justify more repression.
You seem to think that the Israelis cannot be reasoned with, and that they will only stop when they are confronted with military might and terrorism – it’s a very cynical world view, but it is a reasonable conclusion given recent world history generally. But it’s basically accepting defeat, and it won’t garner any sympathy from the world community (especially the US), as it has already decided that Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular are more prone to primitive violence, and they have much less room for error in their actions.
You’re just putting more fuel on the fire, not very helpful.
lareineblanche June 1, 2010 at 10:27 am
hi lereine. Well put and I fully acknowledge that you may be right. Many things in your post, particularly about forcing the Palestinians to violence then using the violence to demonize them are inarguable. We should contemplate, argue and discuss these matters because at the moment, no one has a viable solution.
Does the opinion of the world community really matter? Because we have thrown all our eggs in that basket–somehow, some way, some day this slumbering world community will spring to life and the brutal occupation will end. Is this realistic? If so, how might it come about? What can and can not be hoped for in terms of the world community? The ICJ HAS acted and declared israel in unambiguous violation of the law. The human rights community condemns israel without equivocation. The official UN report declared Cast Lead a deliberate massacre. NONE of this has had any effect.
Short of a security council resolution authorizing force against israel–a most unlikely event–what should we be hoping for?
The official UN report declared Cast Lead a deliberate massacre. NONE of this has had any effect.
It’s had a huge effect in Israel.
Short of a security council resolution authorizing force against israel–a most unlikely event–what should we be hoping for?
Of course not. BDS, public education, organization, demonstration, and pressure on the US media and government – call your senators, call your congress people – like everyone here has been saying for quite a while. The only solution is raising public awareness, which will force a decision on the part of lawmakers and other members of govt. if they think it could hurt their careers or wallets somehow – unfortunately, those are really the only things that matter to a lot of them.
And if the media narrative in the US changes, you’ll see a big change very quickly (not sure this will happen soon, though).
“no one has a viable solution.”
Not true. The Israelis and the US just don’t like it. One solution would be to invalidate the use of veto power by the US, since it basically owns the UN. I don’t know how this could happen though.
Chosen, thanks for the course in Realpolitick and the philosophy of Realism. I consider myself to be quite pessimistic most days, but you are several rungs below me, which is an achievement worth noting.
I would suggest that you look more closely at the changes taking place now in Israel and in the U.S. We may soon be watching a new ball game on both shores, played with a new set of rules. No genocides necessary.
lareine points to raising public awareness. Here at least, I think the movement can boast enormous success. The entire world is already violently opposed to Israel and her stomach-turning activities. That war has been won. Polls show a global majority view Israel as the greatest threat to world peace on the planet. Has this helped the Palestinians? Has it saved one Palestinian child from being shot point blank for sport by a bored IDF soldier? I’m afraid it has not and this fact has to be recognized in all its depressing horror, not brushed aside with enthusiasm for a breakthrough that has been “just around the corner” for 60 fucking years.
This also confirms that Israel does absolutely nothing that has not been first discussed and agreed to by the US.
No that is quite wrong: “This also confirms that the US does absolutely nothing regarding Israel that has not been first discussed and agreed to by Israel”
“… The Obama administration refused to endorse a statement that singled out Israel, and proposed a broader condemnation of the violence that would include the assault of [n] the Israeli commandos as they landed on the deck of the ship.”.
You’ve all seen the videos. Did the infamous IDF really mount a raid by 20-30 fully-armed ‘Israeli Navy Seals’ on the top deck of a passenger ferry, only to be met by an angry crowd (of how many? – 20-30?) people who resisted them and pulled them off their rappelle ropes, while dumping one IDF goon over the side, a mere 9ft down to the next deck?.
Were they so incompetent that they wore special asbestos gloves for their rappelling, to protect their tender hands, and couldn’t fire as they came down, so then they had to piss about, in total untrained confusion, while they got their super-guns ready, while the ‘angry mob’ beat them over their helmeted heads and flak-jacketed bodies with cafeteria tables and plastic chairs?
When they got themselves together, they shot a minimum of 9 activists dead.
When you choose your senior military officers only from a small fraction of a fraction of Israelis (35% Ashkenazis of 75% Jews = 26% of the total tiny 7M population of Israel) doesn’t leave you with very much to choose from when you are selecting military officers or leaders (and not much more when you’re selecting goons).
As more details come out about this operation, we shall see that it is yet another cock-up by the IDF, which has an altogether higher reputation than it deserves.
“… As more details come out about this operation, we shall see that it is yet another cock-up by the IDF, which has an altogether higher reputation than it deserves.”
It has been proven every time the IDF entered Lebanon’s soil, that it was solidly trounced by a handful of Hizbullah fighters because the IDF has gotten used to fighting off women and stone-throwing kids, not real men and especially not ones with grounhd to ground missiles that took out the Merkavas or the ground to sea that took care of the Hanit. This yet another failure caused by a few civilians that opposed the IDF demonstrates to what level the IDF has been overrated.
The IDF coming down those ropes probably expected the usual civilian fare they have grown accustomed to and probably felt safe as there would be no stones on the ships’ decks. Other than the superior hardware they have in the air thanks to the US, the IDF is a mediocre fighting force. They keep trying to figure out how Hizbullah does it and the answer is right under their noses.
Walid, If Sharon led Israel in the 96 war instead of Olmert, Hizbollah would have lost.
link to jpost.com
Hizbullah officer: We would’ve given up
8/1/07
“The cease-fire acted as a life jacket for the organization [at the end of the Second Lebanon War],” a Hizbullah officer said in an interview aired by Channel 10 on Tuesday.
In the interview, the unnamed officer said Hizbullah gunmen would have surrendered if the fighting last summer had continued for another 10 days.
His statement sharply contrasted with those made by Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah on several occasions since the monthlong war.
At the end of the war, Nasrallah said his organization had gained a “divine victory.”
The officer shown on Channel 10 said the organization’s gunmen had been running low on food and water and facing rapidly diminishing arms supplies.
The officer also said that many Hizbullah commanders were ordered to hide before the war started, and that the gunmen who remained were forced to fire Katyusha rockets from inside urban populations because of the IDF’s efficiency in destroying launchers minutes after a launch had been detected.
He said that when the gunmen relocated to cities and villages, they knew innocent civilians would be hurt as a consequence.
The quick arrival of IAF jets at rocket-launch sites, sometimes only four to five minutes after a Katyusha was fired, “surprised” Hizbullah, the officer said.
A HZ officer giving an interview on Israeli TV ROFTLMAO! Yeah sure we believe that!
link to jpost.com
Why did IDF underestimate terrorists?
JPost like Israel has gone nuts – A country full of right-wing loons who hate everyone that doesn’t totally subscribe to their lies.
JPost was always full of right-wing nuts.
Shafiq and we should listen to the peace minded Palestinian media.
link to palwatch.org