A fascinating debate is entering Israel’s political mainstream on a once-taboo subject: the establishment of a single state as a resolution of the conflict, one in which Jews and Palestinians might potentially live as equal citizens. Surprisingly, those advocating such a solution are to be found chiefly on Israel’s political right.
The debate, which challenges the current orthodoxy of a two-state future, is rapidly exploding traditional conceptions about the Zionist right and left.
Most observers -- including a series of US administrations -- have supposed that Israel’s peace-makers are to be found exclusively on the Zionist left, with the right dismissed as incorrigible opponents of Palestinian rights.
In keeping with this assumption, the US president Barack Obama tried until recently to sideline the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyhau, Israel’s rightwing prime minister, and bolster instead Ehud Barak, his defence minister from the left-wing Labour party, and the opposition leader Tzipi Livni, of the centrist Kadima party.
But, as the Israeli right often points out, the supposedly “pro-peace” left and centre parties have a long and ignominious record in power of failing to advance Palestinian statehood, including during the Oslo process. The settler population, for example, grew the fastest during the short premiership of Mr Barak a decade ago.
What the new one-state debate reveals is that, while some on the right -- and even among the settlers -- are showing that they are now open to the idea of sharing a state with the Palestinians, the left continues to adamantly oppose such an outcome.
In a supplement of Israel’s liberal Haaretz newspaper last weekend largely dedicated to the issue, Yossi Beilin, a former leader of the ultra-dovish Meretz party and an architect of Oslo, spoke for the Zionist left in calling a one-state solution “nonsense”. He added dismissively: “I’m not interested in living in a state that isn’t Jewish.”
The Israeli left still hangs on resolutely to the goal it has espoused since Mr Barak attended the failed Camp David talks in 2000: the annexation to Israel of most of the settlements in the West Bank and all of those in East Jerusalem. The consensus on the left is that the separation wall, Mr Barak’s brainchild, will ensure that almost all the half million settlers stay put while an embittered Palestinian population is corralled into a series of ghettoes misleadingly called a Palestinian state. The purpose of this separation, says the left, is to protect Israel’s Jewishness from the encroaching Palestinian majority if the territory is not partitioned.
The problem with the left’s solution has been summed up by Tzipi Hotoveley, a senior Likud legislator who recently declared her support for a single state. “There is a moral failure here [by the left]. … The result is a solution that perpetuates the conflict and turns us from occupiers into perpetrators of massacres, to put it bluntly. It’s the left that made us a crueler nation and also put our security at risk.”
The right is beginning to understand that separation requires not just abandoning dreams of Greater Israel but making Gaza the template for the West Bank. Excluded and besieged, the Palestinians will have to be “pacified” through regular military assaults like the one on Gaza in winter 2008 that brought international opprobrium on Israel’s head. Some on the right believe Israel will not survive long causing such outrages.
But if the right is rethinking its historic positions, the left is still wedded to its traditional advocacy of ethnic separation and wall-building.
It was the pre-state ideologues of Labour Zionism who first argued for segregation under the slogans “Hebrew labour” and “redemption of the land” and then adopted the policy of transfer. It was the Labour founders of the Jewish state who carried out the almost wholesale expulsion of the Palestinians under cover of the 1948 war.
For the right, on the other hand, the creation of a “pure” Jewish territory has never been a holy grail. Early on, it resigned itself to sharing the land. The much-misunderstood “iron wall” doctrine of Vladimir Jabotinsky, the Likud’s intellectual father, was actually presented as an alternative to Labour Zionism’s policies of segregation and expulsion. He expected to live with the Palestinians, but preferred that they be cowed into submission with an iron wall of force.
Jabotinsky’s successors are grappling with the same dilemmas. Most, like Mr Netanyahu, still believe Israel has time to expand Israeli control by buying the Palestinians off with such scraps as fewer checkpoints and minor economic incentives. But a growing number of Likud leaders are admitting that the Palestinians will not accept this model of apartheid forever.
Foremost among them is Moshe Arens, a former defence minister and Likud guru, who wrote recently that the idea of giving citizenship to many Palestinians under occupation “merits serious consideration”. Reuven Rivlin, the parliament’s speaker, has conceded that “the lesser evil is a single state in which there are equal rights for all citizens”.
We should not romanticise these Likud converts. They are not speaking of the “state of all its citizens” demanded by Israel’s tiny group of Jewish non-Zionists. Most would require that Palestinians accept life in a state dominated by Jews. Arens, for example, wants to exclude the 1.5 million Palestinians of Gaza from citizenship to gerrymander his Jewish-majority state for a few more decades. None seems to be considering including a right of return for the millions of Palestinian refugees. And almost all of them would expect citizenship to be conditional on loyalty, recreating for new Palestinian citizens the same problematic relationship to a Jewish state endured by the current Palestinian minority inside Israel.
Nonetheless, the right is showing that it may be more willing to redefine its paradigms than the Zionist left. And in the end it may confound Washington by proving more capable of peace-making than the architects of Oslo.
Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His latest books are “Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East” (Pluto Press) and “Disappearing Palestine: Israel's Experiments in Human Despair” (Zed Books). His website is www.jkcook.net.
A version of this article originally appeared in The National (www.thenational.ae), published in Abu Dhabi.
Which proves the point, once again, that there is no such thing as a liberal Zionist.
In short, the definition of a ‘Liberal Zionist’ as I see it, is one who advocates for liberal Knesset policies pertaining to the Israeli Jewish majority. When it comes to laws/treaties concerning non-Jews, Israeli society sheds the labels and becomes “Zionist”.
This is the height of stupidity. Does Cook genuinely believe that the Israeli right has any genuine interest in granting Palestinians full civil equality under a binational arrangement? If he bothered listening to the actual articulation of the right’s vision of a one state solution, he would recognize that it is nothing other than the Feiglin plan: The subjugation of Arabs under Jewish rule. As Feiglin explains it, the vision is that of a state in which Arabs have “human rights but not civil rights.” If this is what should be deemed as out-of-the-box thinking more progressive than that of the Zionist left, Cook’s head is squarely up his ass.
Ah missed the second to last paragraph. Nevermind.
“Ah missed the second to last paragraph. Nevermind.”
Don’t knock it. Selective reading has done wonders for the Zionists.
You either didn’t read the article or have a reading comprehension problem.
Mr. Cook is clearly aware of the nuances and the intricacies of the issue. He stated them in his article. Furthermore, he has been living and reporting from Nazareth for several years now. So, not only is your criticism uncalled for, irrational and baseless, but it is certainly rude and juvenile.
You might want to take a class on people skills too while you’re improving your reading comprehension at a summer class. God knows you could use all the help you can get.
Sorry, but Cook is being completely disingenuous if he’s suggesting that liberal Zionists are morally deficient for supporting a two-state solution. It is false and essentialist to say that self-determination in the form of statehood is innately racist and unjust.
If Cook knows that the one staters he’s citing aren’t genuinely supporting ideal binationalism, and still he’s using their position as a stick with which to beat on the Zionist left as amoral for supporting what everyone outside the radical left considers a normal position, he is merely propagandizing for the downfall of his enemy, and not providing a reasoned analysis.
My reading comprehension isn’t off, my tolerance for radical anti-Zionism has worn away.
Can you really see half a million people being successfully dragged from “their” homes in order to achieve a “two state solution” that isn’t just a bunch of bantustans?
What’s wrong with the Geneva Accords recommendation of comparable territorial compensation for large settlements blocks? Why is that completely off the table?
Can you really see half a million people being successfully dragged from “their” homes
Sure, if they’re Arabs. 3/4 million were driven from their homes in 1947-8. Where’s the problem?
“What’s wrong with the Geneva Accords recommendation of comparable territorial compensation for large settlements blocks? Why is that completely off the table?”
Because it still results in the same impractical outcome ie. disconnected and discontinuous bantustans. No state can be created from the holes in a swiss cheese. It also ails to adress the refugee problem and the status of east Jerusalem.
Try to keep up.
“My reading comprehension isn’t off, my tolerance for radical anti-Zionism has worn away.”
Is there any other form of anti-Zionism in your opinion?
There fact is that that when it comes to Zionism, there is no such thing as extremism. Cook’s argument is not that a 2 state solution is a morally deficient idea. He is pointing out that the insistence that 2 state solution is still viable is blatantly dishonest and unrealistic. The reason that a single state is being considered is because we’re practically 80% of the way there already.
You may not like the idea of a single bi national state, but there’s no point sticking your head in the sand and pretending that a 2 state solution is still an option becasue you cannot bear the thought of the alternative. That’s completely disingenuous.
If you lob off Gush Etzion and give up a comparable part of the Galilee, the West Bank needn’t be Swiss cheese. All I was citing from the Geneva Accords was the territorial compensation as you had referenced “a bunch of bantustans.” I was not addressing refugees or East Jerusalem.
“If you lob off Gush Etzion and give up a comparable part of the Galilee, the West Bank needn’t be Swiss cheese.”
Those are big if’s and no Israeli government is ever going to have the balls to lob of any territory where Israeli settlers are based.
Of course, any proposition is dead in the water without addressing refugees or East Jerusalem.
What alternative? A true democracy in which Jews and Arabs are equal citizens and fully respect each others rights and freedoms? If only that were within the realm of the possible. We tear down the borders and the killings from both sides will ensue. If that’s the alternative you’re proposing, certainly I cannot bear it.
“What alternative? A true democracy in which Jews and Arabs are equal citizens and fully respect each others rights and freedoms? If only that were within the realm of the possible.”
It was before thje Zionists decided they wanted to steal the land and make their own ethnocentric state.
“We tear down the borders and the killings from both sides will ensue.”
Keep telling yourself that. After all, the status quo has been spectacularly successful is preventing killing hasn’t it?
“If that’s the alternative you’re proposing, certainly I cannot bear it.”
You mean the bit about equality between Jews and Arabs? Real democracy? I’m not surprised.
They will not, however, have any trouble in lopping off Arab citizens, whether they want to be lopped or not.
No one, in all this talk of territory-swapping, ever seems to think of the people who live in those territories. Unless they are Jews.
“It was before thje Zionists decided they wanted to steal the land and make their own ethnocentric state.”
The 1880s were a long fucking time ago.
“Keep telling yourself that. After all, the status quo has been spectacularly successful is preventing killing hasn’t it?”
Compare the current situation to 2001 and shit yeah, it is.
“You mean the bit about equality between Jews and Arabs? Real democracy? I’m not surprised.”
Take one member of each faction: Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PRC, Hadash, Balad, Likud, UTJ, Shas, Yisrael Beitenu, Kadima, Labor, Meretz, etc. Put them all in one room and tell me they’re not all going to kill each other. Then tell me you can do that with 13 million people just as full of rage and hate — but also armed to the teeth — and that everything’s going to be rainbows and butterflies. And then I’ll tell you that you live in a fantasy world.
“The 1880s were a long fucking time ago.”
That’s when the program started and continues to this day.
“Compare the current situation to 2001 and shit yeah, it is.”
Yeah, let’s pretend that Lebanon 2006 and Gaza 2008 never happened. No Jews died so no big deal right?
“Put them all in one room and tell me they’re not all going to kill each other.”
Extemism requires injustice and a permanent war time setting to survive. Take those away, and they suffocate.
What you are recommending is a practitioner for never ending warfare.
“The 1880s were a long fucking time ago.”
What ever happened to all those 2500 years? Compared to that it was yesterday.
“Why is that completely off the table?”
Because Israel holds the land as the result of war. It “occupies” the land. That situation must be dealt with before there can be any discussion of the “Geneva accords”.
And you know it.
I’m appreciating Cook as someone willing to look at things with a fresh eye. That said, there have been right wingers in Israeli society contemplating coexistence within a greater Israel for long time. Two that come to mind are Rabbi Fruman from T’koa and the bereaved father of a religious soldier whose name I forget. Both supported such proposals more than a decade ago. They also talked about granting Palestinian citizenship to settlers.
But Mobius1ski is correct – to use this ‘man bites dog’ story as a way of showing that the Zionist left has nothing to offer is disingenuous. In general, the right wing has a pretty convincing record of supporting racist and military solutions when the Zionist left – for all its sins – flip flops quite a bit.
My experience is that parts of the Zionist left mouth stuff about a Jewish state as part of an electoral strategy in Israeli society, not as deeply held beliefs. A look at Shulamit Aloni’s career bears that out. Since leaving the Knesset as leader of ‘the’ Zionist left party (Meretz) her positions became more and more radical, as did those of her son, active in educational affairs. The staffers populating honorable groups like B’tselem, Rabbis for Human Rights or ACRI are often well connected to the Zionist left, as opposed to the groups like Hadash or AIC that stand outside the Zionist world.
(P.S.: Ehud Barak isn’t really seen as part of the Zionist left within Israel. Neither is Shimon Peres. They chose to be ‘center’ a long time ago….)
Wielding the word ‘Zionist’ like some kind of magic sword that resolves past, present and future isn’t very helpful. Congrats to Cook for avoiding that particular mistake.
“(P.S.: Ehud Barak isn’t really seen as part of the Zionist left within Israel. Neither is Shimon Peres. They chose to be ‘center’ a long time ago….)”
When it comes to Zionism, there is no such thing as a left, right and centre.
“Wielding the word ‘Zionist’ like some kind of magic sword that resolves past, present and future isn’t very helpful. Congrats to Cook for avoiding that particular mistake.”
It’s a distinction without a difference. At the end of the say, teh only thing that differentiates the left from the right is the degree of dishonesty about an otherwise extremist ideology they all share.
Shingo, do you believe that self-defined national groupings have a right to self-determination? Or is the exercise of self-determination in the form of statehood universally illegitimate and unjust?
“Shingo, do you believe that self-defined national groupings have a right to self-determination? Or is the exercise of self-determination in the form of statehood universally illegitimate and unjust?”
Only if it’s universally applied.
In the case of Israel, the insist on their right to self determination while denying it to the Palestinians. No only have Israel have voted every year against granting the Palestinians self determination at the UN, but the notion of a 2 state settlement, which you seem to think is such a brilliant idea, is based on denying the Palestinians self determination.
I certainly don’t believe in right to self-determination at the expense of others, much less on other people’s land.
“Shingo, do you believe that self-defined national groupings have a right to self-determination?”
When did this self-determionation take place? I guess I missed the plebiscite, the vote taken among the world’s Jews to see if forming and armed nation by stealing other’s land is what we felt was best for Judaism’s future.
Don’t give me that self-determination bullshit. It was a private colonial effort, by people who happened to see the troubles of some Jews as their chance to steal a country.
I also do not believe in self-determination at the expense of others, and I oppose strongly any and all efforts by the Israeli government to block the establishment of a sovereign, independent Palestinian state. I agree that Israel is hypocritical and cruel in its denial of Palestinian self-determination. But even rank hypocrisy doesn’t invalidate the Jewish people’s own right to self-determination.
The issue isn’t self-determination. That’s just another Zionist smokescreen. Let the Jewish people get together and vote on having a state, what kind of state it will be, etc. That’s self-determination. What they don’t have the right to do is place this state on someone else’s land.
the jewish people did get together and vote. it was called the world zionist congress. there’ve been about 35 of them in the last 100+ years. there probably would’ve been more vocal opposition to the decision to establish a state, except all the diasporists who believed in liberating the jewish people through the advancement of socialism were murdered by hitler.
“the jewish people did get together and vote. it was called the world zionist congress. there’ve been about 35 of them in the last 100+ years.”
The WZC was a minority in the Jewish community and always has been.
Thanks for proving our point.
“except all the diasporists who believed in liberating the jewish people through the advancement of socialism were murdered by hitler”
ROTFL! Yes, Zionism got real far professing socialism.
I respect that, but there is no such thing as “the Jewish people”. That’s simply a Biblical reference used to justify the Zionist claim to the land.
In any case, the simple fact that most of the world’s Jews refuse to live in Israel suggests that Jewish self determination is an ideology, not a necessity.
Self determination everywhere is ideology. And a recent invention, at that. How many linguistic or national groups were independent and not occupying others before 1914? Or 2000 years ago? Not. That. Many.
Might as well be a Pan-Arabist and support the erasure of national boundaries. United Arab Republic anyone? Or maybe a supporter of the revived caliphate. All just ideologies, not necessities.
Pan Zrabism was driven by a desire to guard against Western exploitation, and the application if divide and conquer.
“I respect that, but there is no such thing as “the Jewish people”. ”
Even if the notion of “Jewish people” according to some historian Jewish or not, I personally have no problem if they want to define themselves as “people” as I think it should be left to them to define themselves as they please. It’s their debate, argument and issue to resolve. My only problem is, as Potsherd said, is when they “self-determinate” on someone Else’s land and I believe that as “people”, ( not as individuals or communities), they have absolutely no automatic right, whether biblical or historical, to the land of Palestine.
balfour declaration? partition plan? u.n. ratification? all of it’s irrelevant?
“all of it’s irrelevant”
Every Israeli PM since Znegin seems to think so. If the partition plan was relevant, Israel would be made to observe it today.
“balfour declaration?”
Imperial( British) power dictating what should be done and what should not? Don’t make me laugh I have a cold sore..
Just because lord Balfour, a representative of an imperial power, promised the Jews a homeland in Palestine, the Palestinians who have not been asked their opinions on giving away half their lands just like that, should have packed their stuff and left?
“partition plan? u.n. ratification? all of it’s irrelevant?”
It’s ironic that you invoke the UN and its resolutions when you know and we all know that your state have defied and violated every single resolution in regards to the return of the refugees and the construction of settlements in occupied land. This illegal settling business, factually land theft, is also condemned by every single nation on earth yet you have no qualms in making it a constant policy of every single gov’t since 1967. This is today what is making reaching a solution and a peace agreement quasi impossible to achieve..It’s your own state’s doing..Don’t blame the anti-zionists for that..
fuck you that’s a biblical reference used to justify the zionist claim, etc. i have a family tree that stretches back to the kingdom of david hanging in my grandmother’s house. you’re denying my history, and erasing my connection to my heritage and my ancestral homeland. imagine if i said there’s no such thing as a palestinian or palestinian identity — that it’s all an invention used to justify the arab claim to jewish land. you’d be skewering me. despicable. that is anti-semitism masquerading behind anti-zionism plain and simple.
mobius1ski July 20, 2010 at 10:04 pm
“fuck you that’s a biblical reference used to justify the zionist claim, etc. i have a family tree that stretches back to the kingdom of david hanging in my grandmother’s house.”
:D
Hello zionazi sayanim/hasbarat troll of the day. What will you call yourself tomorrow? Why don’t you show a little courtesy and post a list of your daily nick schedule for the Mondoweiss site.
Oops, almost forgot the purpose of this reply. Did you know your fly is open?
“fuck you that’s a biblical reference used to justify the zionist claim, etc. i have a family tree that stretches back to the kingdom of david hanging in my grandmother’s house. you’re denying my history, and erasing my connection to my heritage and my ancestral homeland. imagine”
Another religiosus nut job.
Thanks for proving yet again that there is no such thing as a liberal Zionist.
There’s no point arguing with someone who thinks a book of myth is a land title.
Mobius1ski,
Welcome to one of most vile comment sections on the web. If you stick around you will here all of the anti-Israel talking points. Right now they are all ‘scholars’ of the great Shlomo Sands, hence the “invention of the Jewish people’ reference.
It is really quite comical, they’ll talk about Hasbara constantly, without really understanding how stale their own talking points have become.
Once they bring up the Warsaw Ghetto and USS Liberty, you know they got their ‘dipshit’ handbook open to page 1.
:)
“that is anti-semitism masquerading behind anti-zionism plain and simple”
And yours is religious extemism masquerading behind liberalism and progressivism.
That’s why Zionism is doomed.
Don’t you just love how this guy thinks his ancestor was a mythical creation that never existed? He might as well believe he’s related to Harry Potter.
“Right now they are all ‘scholars’ of the great Shlomo Sands, hence the “invention of the Jewish people’ reference. ”
Actually, Sand’s thesis was already a commonly held belief s decade before his book came out.
But by all means SM, provide the evidence if David, Solomon and the Zkingdpm if David a
and let’s debate it.
Tale your time. You’ll need it. Oh, and the Bible doesn’t count.
at least you finally admit this this is anti-semitism. that is a big step Shingo
Incidentally SM, you don’t need to resort to lies and name calling.
You and I have already established that we share a mutual concern for the human rights of Jewish people.
so without evidence of David, Solomon and the Zhindpm if David, the Jewish people don’t exist? think about how ridiculous that argument is.
Show me evidence of Muhammad? If you can’t does that negate Islam? Are Muslims also an invention? Are Christians and invention with out evidence of Christ?
Your debate is fucking stupid.
“at least you finally admit this this is anti-semitism. that is a big step Shingo”
Like I said SM. You’re intelligent enough to male a case without false accusations and ah hominems.
Don’t drop the ball.
So explain to us how the notion of a Jewish people can exist without the belief in the Exile, the bloodlines to David and Splomon etc?
As for Muhammed, yes, he tikis a Mickey mouse character. Maybe you missed something, but
a) Mobius1ski is the one who’s history is based on religious teachings and
b) no one on this blog has ever based the case for the Pslestinians on religion in any way
At least you demonstrated that you are smart and haven’t wasted time debating the existence of religious figures.
Schwartzman
That you find an affinity of sorts with this piece of trash mobiuski, says a lot about you. Shame.
“at least you finally admit this this is anti-semitism. that is a big step Shingo”
Where did he “admit” that? I don’t see it.
He’s not trash, but certainly deluded and trying much too hard to sound moderate, when his position is clearly based on religion.
I’m just disappointed that SM was so reactive in labeling those who don’t accept the bible as a historical record.
Yeah what a shame, i find an affinity with someone who doesn’t mock my religion on a daily basis, how f-ing horrible. What a shame I find an affinity with someone who believes in self-determination for both Israelis and Palestinians.
You guys have zero respect for anything Jewish on here, your pure hatred for anything Israel is frightening. Hatred like that needs to be fought, when I see someone who is willing to combat your hatred, yes I find an affinity with him.
You’ve all made it clear this will be a fight to the finish, you have zero respect for Jews or Israelis and yet we are supposed to believe a one-state solution is possible? The game plan is clear, I thank God everyday there are ppl like Mobi who will stand up and fight for his people, our people.
Shingo,
I don’t accept the bible as a historical record, but I take offense at your saying my people and culture are an invention. Judaism is a huge part in my life and when you make a mockery of it, it irritates me.
“fuck you ”
My, my!
Ok, genius, I’m not prophet but I can predict that you’ll hardly last more than 3 days over here. That’s the average life cycle for lousy, foul-mouthed, obnoxious posters. Unless you decide to finally grow a head..
“Where did he “admit” that? I don’t see it.”
I didn’t, but as is thr case with Zionists, the victim switch gets activated when engaging in a debate and they begin hallucinating.
Judaism is a religion, and I have utmost respect for that faith as I do any other.
As to your culture, you are conflating religious custom with culture. Culture is based on your home environment, and I would be confident in suggesting that 99% of your daily existence gas nothing to do with religious customs,
isn’t it awesome when imperialists conquer your country, chase you to the ends of the earth, murder or expel you from everywhere you live for the successive 2 thousand years, destroy everything you own, burn vast libraries, steal family heirlooms, turn synagogues and cemeteries into churches and parking lots, erase all of your connections to your past, and then demand you prove existed that which they destroyed? what good would evidence do? you would just allege a zionist conspiracy to falsify evidence. because you’re not interested in truth or justice. just victory for your side.
So mobius strip’s shift is over, it gets up and heads home to Mother, and schwartzmanlymon takes the seat, plugs in it’s pay code and the next shift is up and running.
I’d suggest that someone who claims his family tree dates back to King David is the one mocking your religion. I swear I thought he was being sarcastic when I first read that.
You gave every right to be proud of your religion, and I’d go so far ad to say I wouldn’t proud to be Hewish if I had been raised one. No one is mocking your religion, and anyone who does should be banned from this forum.
“isn’t it awesome when imperialists conquer your country, chase you to the ends of the earth, murder or expel you from everywhere you live for”
Isn’t it tragic when you then turn around and behave the same way, and destroy cemeteries in order to build Museums of….tolerance.
“You guys have zero respect for anything Jewish on here,”
“You guys” is broad brush painting as I do not mock “anything Jewish” so you better be more nuanced..My top favorite posters over here are Jewish..
“i find an affinity with someone who doesn’t mock my religion on a daily basis,”
I do not target Jewish religion. Even if I did I’d never do that exclusively as I have little tolerance to ALL religions. Read slowly my nic..
“your pure hatred for anything Israel is frightening”
Lame..What we’re on about here is not driven by emotional responses such as hatred, a by product of a certain situation, a tangible, concrete reality of oppression, occupation and destruction of a people. The people (my people) that I support have lost almost everything and have been and still are subjected to an unspeakable misery and you’re sitting there accusing me, and others, of hatred without taking into consideration those hard cold facts on the ground!! When are you going to understand that one can be driven by a high moral sense of right and wrong much more strongly (or as strongly) as by feelings and emotions such as hatred or love for that matter..
1. If you’re walking around with a 2000 year old chip on your shoulders then you’ve been duped and are a gullible and useful idiot.
2. Given your shallow understanding of the social and political aspects of this conflict, I’m not surprised that you believe that the “killing will ensue once the borders are opened”. We saw how the killing ensued when Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty and we saw how the killing ensued when Jordan and Israel signed a peace treaty. The only killing going on was the Israeli tourist traps that attracted Jordanian tourists and the Israeli tourists who traveled to Petra and killed the historic monuments with their littering.
3. But, what’s truly telling about you is the simple fact that you are making Mr. Cook’s argument. Surely, you must think of yourself as some flaming liberal Zionist, but by rejecting the bi-national model, you’re proving the point he made in this article.
I guess when one is a useful idiot, he’s really useful to many groups, not just those who brainwashed him. And if you think that Israel can survive in perpetuity with sealed, airtight borders with its own neighbors, then you’re dumber than you let on and I don’t think you deserve a serious response.
i have long protested against the wiesenthal center’s deplorable museum of intolerance, thank you very much.
you keep shifting the goal posts of the conversation. i don’t know why i’m wasting my time as you’re clearly just screwing with me and treating me like a caricature.
Since you’re so touchy feely, perhaps you can explain how you got the nerve to accuse this website and the posters here of being vile and anti-Semitic.
Why can’t we get smarter trolls than idiots like you who can’t even see the irony and the blatant hypocrisy that’s right under their nose?
Dan:
“i’m wasting my time as you’re clearly just screwing with me and treating me like a caricature.”
That’s par for the course around here. Most of these people are pretty scary politically, and they attack the liberal Zionists more harshly than anyone else. Be prepared to be cursed out in lieu of counterargument and to have hard facts answered with profane bluster. It will not matter to them that you’re a principled guy who knows much more than they do and has much more real experience in the region than they do. These people are not peaceniks. They’re extremists.
Phil Weiss acts as a kind of Rabbi Coughlin, and these commenters take his conspiratorially-themed blog and run with it.
I’ll repeat..whether you’re a people or not is not my issue and not up to me to decide . My concern is, I’ll repeat, is that if you’re a people, fine, you want to “self-determinate”, good, go ahead by all means, but not on land that is already inhabited for thousands of years,..You do not take the land and simply sweep the existing people under the rug..
mobius1ski July 20, 2010 at 11:50 pm
Holy shitskuz, the mobius strip is pulling overtime. Now that’s dedication – especially since the thing is on salary.
:D
“I have long protested against the wiesenthal center’s deplorable museum of intolerance, thank you very much.”
And yet, you imply in your original post that the rest of us were complicit or support he Jewish persecution throughout history.
“you keep shifting the goal posts of the conversation. ”
You brought up colonial occupation, oblivious to the fact that you were opening a can of worms. Holding a mirror up to you is not shifting the goal post.
“i don’t know why i’m wasting my time as you’re clearly just screwing with me and treating me like a caricature.”
Sorry, but anyone who thinks his family tree leads back to Kind David doesn’t need any help portraying himself as a caricature. I’ve never heard anything so ridiculous.
“anyone who thinks his family tree leads back to Kind David doesn’t need any help portraying himself as a caricature. I’ve never heard anything so ridiculous.”
Zactly! It reminds me of some Arab potentates who claim their ancestry can be traced back to the prophet..
what can i say? you’re not bringing legitimate criticism of illegitimate israeli policies. you’re not expressing critical opposition to zionism. you’re fundamentally denying my people’s history and relegating it to myth. you’re invalidating jewish peoplehood and the legitimacy of the jewish people’s narrative. you, in essence, deny my being in total because you choose to believe that my history isn’t true. so how can i possibly argue with you?
Criticism of Iaraeli policies is what this entire blog is dedicated to.
You are entitled to your beliefs, but there’s monopoly denying that the notion of Judaism’s religious ties to Palesrine have been used to justify the policies of Israel and 60 years of brutality.
mobyski
Whom are you addressing here? Are you talking to the blog or someone in particular?
Btw,
“you’re fundamentally denying my people’s history and relegating it to myth.”
If it’s anyone’s thesis it’s Shlomo Sands, Israel Finlklestein’s (and other scholars before them). Are you aware of the existence of such a debate among Jews? Why lashing out at people here instead of addressing Sand’s hypothesis for example..? Why throwing the anti-Semite slander when Jews themselves raised the issue in the first place. Or are they anti-Semites too?
Mobi,
you’re fundamentally denying my people’s history and relegating it to myth. you’re invalidating jewish peoplehood and the legitimacy of the jewish people’s narrative. you, in essence, deny my being in total because you choose to believe that my history isn’t true. so how can i possibly argue with you?
And you’re uneducated. Read Ze’ev Herzog, Professor and director of The Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv University.
Friday, October 29, 1999
Deconstructing the walls of Jericho
Copy of full article here: link to mideastfacts.org
“isn’t it awesome when imperialists conquer your country, chase you to the ends of the earth, murder or expel you from everywhere you live for the successive 2 thousand years, destroy everything you own, burn vast libraries, steal family heirlooms, turn synagogues and cemeteries into churches and parking lots, erase all of your connections to your past, and then demand you prove existed that which they destroyed?”
And then you came to take revenge , of all people, of those who had absolutely nothing to do with all the above! Extraordinary that…
“This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people – and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story – now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people’s emergence are radically different from what that story tells.”
Ze’ev Herzog
link to mideastfacts.org
What a flawed weak objection delivered by Tankgod. As if the identity of a people and a nation was mainly grounded on archeological researches and conclusions! You should actually know that a people defines itself through shared language, culture, history, religion and national self-determination. Myths are in this regard are founding element of any people, not only the Jewish.
Or do you really think that William Tell, the national hero of the Swiss people, really existed in the shape the Swiss people know and celebrate today?
Do you really think that the claim by the Palestinians to be the original natives, the descendents of the Canaanites and the Philistines is not based on a myth, constructed ad hoc for the purpose?
Anyway, we can at least say that the Jewish myths are very strong since they were able to keep alive the dream of Eretz Israel during 2000 years of Diaspora and led to the refounding of a Jewish national home were once the ancestors lived.
You anti-Zionists should acknowlegde this as fact, but even if you don’t – never mind. The way you try to abstract from history, culture and religion make your all critical arguments against Israel pretty crude.
The real question – despite your attempt to trivialize – is: Can the national myths of both people live side by side or together without fighting each other, as happened for many centuries in Europe between the several national aspirations, eventually flowing into the catastrophe of WWII ?
“You should actually know that a people defines itself through shared language, culture, history, religion and national self-determination.”
Really?
1. Shared language?
Israelis speak Hebrew. How many Jews speak Hebrew?
Many Jews in the US speak Yiddish, yet the language is practicalyl forbidden in Israel.
2. Culture?
Culture of Israeli Jews (especially orthodox) has nothing to do with the culure of most Jews living in Wstern countries.
3. History?
Apart from teh Holocuast, the main component fo Jewish history is based on the Old Testament.
4. National self-determination?
Obviously noy shared by the vast majority of Jews who refuse to live in Israel.
Obviously not shared by the 1 million Israelis who have migrated from Israel.
“Do you really think that the claim by the Palestinians to be the original natives, the descendents of the Canaanites and the Philistines is not based on a myth, constructed ad hoc for the purpose?”
No becasue it is based in archieologuical, biological and historical evidence.
“Anyway, we can at least say that the Jewish myths are very strong since they were able to keep alive the dream of Eretz Israel during 2000 years of Diaspora and led to the refounding of a Jewish national home were once the ancestors lived.”‘
The dream of Eretz Israel was dead until Hertzl resurrected it.
“Can the national myths of both people live side by side or together without fighting each other, as happened for many centuries in Europe between the several national aspirations, eventually flowing into the catastrophe of WWII ?”
Only if those myths aren’t centred around exclusive rights or ownership of the land.
“What a flawed weak objection delivered by Tankgod.”
I didn’t read beyond that line, sorry, I have a headache. But in case you didn’t notice I didn’t write the above, Ze’ev Herzog did..
As I said twice above, I don’t have a problem with you calling yourself a people, as I fail to see why I can tell you what you should be calling yourself…But please try not to use it as a validation for land theft following on the premise that it was promised to such people as a homeland because I’m not a believer and my knowledge of history says that the land was inhabited by other people, the Palestinians in different varieties ethnic groups for thousands of years and the Muslims/Arabs among them have lived there uninterrupted for 1400 years since they conquered Jerusalem in 638 A.d…. If 1400 years are not enough to make them indigenous to Palestine,what will?
Jonah,
Fuck the myths. We’re all fed up with them. Tell the goddam truth. Acknowledge differences and revel in them. Admit the lies and hyperbole. Live as human beings in harmony.
Shingo- One can be excused for using hyperbole in the midst of an argument, but I’m not sure what you mean by the following . “History?
Apart from the Holocuast, the main component of Jewish history is based on the Old Testament.”
There is extensive history accepted by those very same historians you cite, who reject the Old Testament’s major features as myth. Beginning with the Hasmoneans and extending until the Holocaust- there are gaps, but there is an extensive history of the Jewish civilization. Maybe you meant to say that the claims on the land are based on the Old Testament, which may be true especially given the emphasis Ben Gurion and other Zionist founders placed upon the Old Testament. But the Jewish connection to the land in the time of Jesus and the destruction of Herod’s temple are well accepted history and to state otherwise is to engage in something other than intelligent discussion.
Another point, you write: “The dream of Eretz Israel was dead until Herzl resurrected it.”
The dream was not dead, but it was a dream and a prayer deferred to the murky future until Herzl turned it into an actual political program. Herzl was not the first modern Zionist (probably Pinsker deserves that title), but he took an idea of a few intellectuals and a few rather small groups and turned it into a living potent program.
All that together or at least a couple of them:
Shared language: Hebrew is the official language in Israel, whoever wants to live in Israel must lern Hebrew. Also the Jews.
Culture: The Old Testament is shared by orthodox as well as liberal Jews in Israel and in the whole wide world. Even I, growed up in a liberal and agnostic family without religious beliefs, came in my young years into touch with Jewish culture and religion, the common stories and values of Judaism.
Obviously you confuse variety with difference, and not only with regard to the Book. Doesn’t surprise me, since you are not Jew and moreover irreparably prejudiced.
History: The ancient history before the Diaspora is shared by all the Jews. The Diaspora is a shared history too. And last but not least: Also Israel is to be considered common Jewish history since it’s the name for the Jewish nation, ok. The dream of Erezt Israel is contained in the prayer born in the Jewish Diaspora at the end of every Passover seder since the Babilonian exile.
By the way, 99% of the Jews support Israel and its right to exist. Even if they don’t live in Israel right now. They are ok where they live, scattered in the wide world, but a part of their soul is with Israel.
If you have, on the other hand, archeological, biological and historical evidence about the Palestinian roots, so you have to show it beyond the banal reiteration of the myth.
“Only if those myths aren’t centred around exclusive rights or ownership of the land.”
This applies also to the Palestinians and the “Arab nation”, don’t you think?
Yeah, here’s some actual history for the both of you, WJ and jonah:
link to mondoweiss.net
Just like yonira lapping up to the Zionist troll of the day (rachel, Witty, etc.). I don’t know who he thinks he is fooling here by making himself up to be someone else. He forgot to dismiss his Hasbara talking points in his new persona.
This isn’t yonira. Yonira could never sustain Wittyesque proportions of phony rhetoric, and whenever he got even close, he descended into the usual Andrew Dice Clay routine.
It really is that all they guys, on level sound the same and repeat the same talking points.
” i don’t know why i’m wasting my time as you’re clearly just screwing with me and treating me like a caricature.”
It never, ever fails! Good God, it’s a frickin necessity!
“The food here tastes like poison, and the portions are too small!”
It should be the Zionist motto.
You’re not even a semite Schwartzman!
Not with a name like that. You’re jewish, yes. But not a semite.
“. i have a family tree that stretches back to the kingdom of david hanging in my grandmother’s house.”
They stretch better, and bend easily, if you soak it in hot water first.
Ho-Kay, the ziocaine is flowing hard in this one.
“wants to live in Israel must lern Hebrew.”
ROTFL!
“Welcome to one of most vile comment sections on the web.”
The food here tastes like poison, and the portions are too small!
“Judaism is a huge part in my life and when you make a mockery of it, it irritates me.”
Then don’t read this blog. You’ll feel so much better, bubele.
“in my grandmother’s house.”
I never knew my Grandmother. She died in the war.
And her house in Italy was lost in the war.
But she wasn’t Jewish, so it doesn’t count.
mobius1ki does that stand for piece of s**t raised to infinity?
fuck your history.
“Culture: The Old Testament is shared by orthodox”
Psst, Jonah, listen pal, ixnay on the Old Testament monicker. Only Gentiles call it “the Old Testament”. Which is a pretty different book than the Torah, from what I understand.
Of course, Jewish nationality is a fect! You can tell by how eager the Ashkenazi and Sephardim and Mitzygaynors and the other flavors Jews in Israel are so eager to combine. Can’t do it fest enough! Now, there’s nationhoods for ya!
“what can i say?”
Not much, huh, if you can’t control the conversation, the narrative, the participants. So that’s the position you Zionists have put yourself in, with a pathological dependence on controlling the narrative, and unable to argue without that? And you’re the “liberals”?
hey shingo, congrats on making tablet’s list today of notorious antisemites lurking on anti-israel blogs.
Thankgod
Since both the Jewish and the Palestinian people have their myths about that tiny piece of land, both have the right to live there. The point is rather: Does exist the political will to compromise on different issues (borders, Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, land swaps).
By the way, you never thought that your headache could derive from to much anti-Zionist indoctrination? A laxative herbal tea could give some relief …. ;-)
this isn’t about controlling the conversation, this is about antisemitism. you don’t believe that jews are legitimately a people. you’re an antisemite. what’s to argue? i don’t have to convince you that my people are real and have legitimate rights. the reality of our peoplehood and our rights is self-evident. you represent a fringe minority of internet troll whackjobs. chances are, you’re a white nationalist interloper using the palestinian solidarity movement as a cover to promote classical antisemitism. why should i be concerned about you?
Mooser, too much Jewish slang, too less substance …
By the way: of course the Torah, but not all goym understand it ;-)
>> … the reality of our peoplehood and our rights is self-evident.
An American practitioner of the Jewish faith is an American. A French practitioner of the Jewish faith is a Frenchman. A German practitioner of the Jewish faith is a German. An Israeli practitioner of the Jewish faith is an Israeli. None of them is a “long-term exile” Israelite and none of them has any gawd-given or otherwise automatic right to land in the Middle East.
may be true, jonah; the goym have been slow to catch on.
but we’re learning.
The Weight of Three Thousand Years
Jonah, you dumb yatebedam around here we call them Gentiles. Is that simple bit of respect beyond you? Or do you want to pit your “Goyim” against all the pejorative names for Jews?
Why do Zionists always want to play games they are sure to lose? It’s almost like they were high on something! “I can fllllyyyy…!”
Only Phil or Adam can call them “Goyim”, if they want to. Didn’t you read the commenting rules
mobius – the tablet article is simply indefensible trash and it is no shame to be criticized in it.
“Mooser, too much Jewish slang, too less substance …”
If they can’t control every aspect of the conversation, including what any Jew might say, they go to pieces. What a weakness!
Oh, and Jonah, go pound sand, clown. See, that competence to judge and the overwhelming sense of righteousness is just the result of all the ziocaine pouring out of your ductless glands. But I don’t share your (May God forgive me for this) Jeuphoria.
jonah, you equate the Jewish and Palestinian myths about the land. The Jewish myth is that we who believe that our ancestors lived on the land two thousand years ago should be allowed to return and reclaim the land from its present-day inhabitants. The Palestinian “myth” is that they were unjustly dispossessed of the land where they were born and where their families had lived for generations and even centuries. As a Jew, I do have to confess that their “myth” looks a lot more persuasive than ours.
mobius, it is certainly possible to have differing views on the nature of the Jewish “people” without anyone being an anti-Semite. Some people think that Jews are more followers of a religion, while others think they are more an ethnic group. There are some obvious differences in appearance among people who call themselves Jews, which suggests that they derive from completely different ethnic groups. The question of “peoplehood” is quite complex and you have no legitimate complaint that those who disagree with you are anti-Semites.
Myself, I rarely grapple with the problem. I think the more important question is one of rights, and you insist that we Jews have “legitimate rights.” I completely agree, but I think our “rights” are the same as other people — to be treated equally with other people similarly situated. You apparently think that our “legitimate rights” include assertion of superiority in Israel/Palestine over native inhabitants who are not Jewish, and that even we Diaspora jews get to enjoy this preference. I’m afraid your position requires a lot more support than you have tried to muster.
btw, I’m not a “white nationalist interloper using the palestinian solidarity movement as a cover to promote classical antisemitism.”
Come on, Mooser. Where is your sense of Jewish humor ? Don’t tanke it so personally.
mobius1ski July 21, 2010 at 12:12 pm
“hey shingo, congrats on making tablet’s list today of notorious antisemites lurking on anti-israel blogs.”
Ha, he’s right shingo, you’re on there! (if it’s you and not another) :
link to tabletmag.com
All I can say is that considering the pictures posted at the top of the article, a quartet of brilliant and influential bloggers (which is why they have to be vilified), made out to be some kind of “rogues gallery”, it is quite an honor to be targeted in this article, which, as David says above, is a piece of trash.
Congratulations!
@david samel
a) i don’t believe jews should assert superiority in israel/palestine over indigenous palestinian peoples. i believe jews and arabs should have their own states and be sovereign unto themselves. and i believe the israelis have a lot of atoning to do for the last 100 years, but that that doesn’t invalidate our very legitimate and historic connection to our ancestral homeland.
b) jews are a distinct people who happen to have various ethnicities within our national group, but which nonetheless can trace their origins to the same source in the ancient middle east.
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2000 June 6; 97(12): 6769–6774.
Published online 2000 May 9.
PMCID: PMC18733
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.
c) if you deny the legitimacy of jewish peoplehood and claim that jews are no more than a faith community, and then impose that ignorant and false interpretation onto us, and thereby delegitimize our right to self-determination, you are an antisemite. that’s not a hysterical claim. that’s the european union’s own working definition of antisemitism.
Psychopathic god
About Israel Shahak and in particular the telephone accident:
link to en.wikipedia.org
“Writing in 2008, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach cited Eli Beer, chief coordinator Israel’s volunteer ambulance service, who “oversees 1,100 medical volunteers, approximately 60 percent of whom are Orthodox,” as stating:
If someone would say we won’t save a non-Jewish life on the Sabbath, he is a liar. If he is Jewish, Christian, or Muslim we save everyone’s life on any day of the year, including the Sabbath and Yom Kippur, and I have done so myself. Indeed, as an orthodox Jew it is my greatest honor to save the life of a non-Jew, and I would violate any of the Jewish holy days to do so.[17]”
and in depth about modern blood libels:
link to edah.org
Shahak has radical views about Judaism and Zionism. I don’t think you should rely only on him to undertstand the reality of both phenomena. Unless you want to lern how to bash on Israel and the Jewish religion.
i think the article is completely off in its characterizations of phil, sullivan, et al. but i think it’s completely spot on about the characterization of the commenters on their sites. you guys are raging bunch of antisemites, there’s no question about it.
“turn synagogues and cemeteries into churches and parking lots,”
And they did this before the automobile was even invented! Or pavement, either, but what the hell, let the ziocaine flow like blood!
David, as a Jew you should undertsand that we Jews have a right to a Jewish homeland after two thousand years Diaspora and persecutions. That homeland is called Israel. The “Palestinians”, whose name was forged by Arafat in 1964, are mainly Arabs from neighboring countries, many of the immigrated in Palestine in the last century during the British Mandate, has this right too, but under certain conditions. For instance recognize once and for all the right to exist of the Jewish state of Israel, and waive the request for return of the refugees and their millions of descendants.
“you guys are raging bunch of antisemites, there’s no question about it”
So what? The Black civil rights movement had to face much, much worse, and made much progress.
Listen, mobius, you keep up with the Oy-how-we-suffer crap and a lot of people are going shove it right back down your throat.
mobius, what is our right to self-determination? As an American Jew, do I have the right to some sort of Jewish rule? Of course not. I have to abide by the decisions made by the majority and their representatives. Why do Israeli Jews have the right to self-determination that trumps the people who have lived there so long? And what of the palestinian citizens of the Jewish State. Are they not second-class citizens in virtually every public field? Why should they be dominated by another ethnic group with superior rights? What about the ones who lost their homes, land, villages, communities in 1948 so that Israel could be created? Were they not dispossessed by Jews making a claim of superiority?
“David, as a Jew you should undertsand that we Jews have a right to a Jewish homeland after two thousand years Diaspora and persecutions.”
Jonah, as a Jew you must know that our very own God has found us not worthy of having our own state. As far as the rest, I can only assume that God would have stopped it if He wanted to.
Or do you think the Romans, the Nazis, etc, are more powerful than our Jewish God?
So, as Glenn Greenwald asks in one of his tweets, are the authors responsible for the views of the people commenting on their site?
The tacit assumption in this article is that these bloggers, by the content of their articles, and by some kind of “obsession” with Israel/Palestine, are providing a platform for such comments, and therefore fostering “antisemitism”, but deflecting the accusation by throwing the blame on the people commenting – having their cake and eating it too.
Secondly, you link to these “genetic” studies, which is a typical hasbara tactic, “proving” that a Jewish race exists – which could be picked apart by someone knowledgeable in genetics, and the question begs itself : why do the study in the first place? The motivations for such a study seem to be pretty dubious to me, and raises the question of the very definition of what a Jew is (a race, a religion, a set of traditions and culture, a combination of all of that), which is a question that has been asked within the Jewish community, and a source of dispute apparently :
link to bbc.co.uk
It’s pretty arrogant to throw around the accusation of “raging bunch of antisemites” when the words themselves are not clearly defined. It just makes no sense, stifles the debate, and creates animosity. You should drop it.
And Dave, why do I, as an American Jew, have to give primacy in anthing to Israelis. Actually not even Israelis, any Zionist immediately assumes the capacity of Head Jew in any discussion.
Why on earth would I allow Jews from Israel, who can’t even get themselves peacefully established in the region, to destroy what we have accomplished here in America? For a bunch of religious fanatics and atheist Jews in Israel, I should endanger the position of Jews in the country where we have done the best? Why?
Why gosh, if God is in good results, I would have to assume that He blesses the Jews in America, and frowns on the Jews in Israel.
And I’m supposed to throw that away just because it conflicts with your Zionism? You must be joking. Hows about this? You make your Zionism in Israel something I can be proud of, and I’ll support you all the way.
jonah, if you’re making an argument that I should understand “as a Jew,” you are implicitly conceding that the argument is less persuasive to a non-Jew. You mistakenly rely on my ethnicity to supply some merit to your argument.
Your brief history of the Palestinians is laughable, but even if true, it would mean that most Jews and Palestinians have roots in the country that are at most a few generations old. Why should Jews exercise a superior claim over Palestinians? Because David Samel is a Jew? The fact that very few Jews actually have roots as old as the Palestinians only makes a raw deal even worse.
I don’t know your personal history, but as a Jew, I’ve experienced no persecution in my lifetime. I realize that there are some who have been worse off, but I don’t see how any of us can make some claim of dominance over others based on two thousand years of persecution. It’s a frivolous argument. The Palestinians were there, the Zionist plan was to create a Jewish State that would necessarily displace them, the plan was executed successfully and did displace the Palestinians, and those that remained are treated as inferiors in the Jewish State. That’s it in a nutshell. You can dress it up with references to past persecution (almost all of it by Christian Europe), but a monkey in silk is still a monkey. jonah, as a human being, and one who hopefully treats others the way he would want to be treated, you should understand.
Mooser, were you talking to me (shades of DeNiro)? Or did you mean jonah?
“as a Jew you must know that our very own God has found us not worthy of having our own state. ”
Why? Are you member of the Neturei Karta? That would indeed explain something.
“Why on earth would I allow Jews from Israel, who can’t even get themselves peacefully established in the region, to destroy what we have accomplished here in America?”
Are you afraid of anti-Semitism, Mooser? Or what’s your point?
No he’s afraid of religious nut jobs like yourself bringing violence to his comminunity.
“David, as a Jew you should undertsand that we Jews have a right to a Jewish homeland after two thousand years Diaspora and persecutions. That homeland is called Israel. ”
No it’s called Palestine.
“The “Palestinians”, whose name was forged by Arafat in 1964, are mainly Arabs from neighboring countries, many of the immigrated in Palestine in the last century during the British Mandate, has this right too, but under certain conditions.”
Bullshit. All inhabitants in Palestine were called Palestinians in 1920l and carried Palestinina passports.
“For instance recognize once and for all the right to exist of the Jewish state of Israel, and waive the request for return of the refugees and their millions of descendants.”‘
No state has th eright to exist. There is no law or treaty that demands the recognitrino of any state to exist. What’s more, you have no right to demand recogniotion without recognizing a Palestinian state.
Secondly, the refugges have a right under international law to return. You don’t the have the right to ask that this be waved simply because you don’t want Israel to be held accountable.
wondering jew
“One can be excused for using hyperbole in the midst of an argument, but I’m not sure what you mean by the following . “History?”‘
You are right and I stand corrected.
“Shared language: Hebrew is the official language in Israel, whoever wants to live in Israel must lern Hebrew. Also the Jews.”
There’s no such thing as “the Jews, but as Ipointed out, Hebrew is not eh language fo Jes in teh diaspora, therefore the langue is not shared.
“Culture: The Old Testament is shared by orthodox as well as liberal Jews in Israel and in the whole wide world.”
That’s nto culture, that’s religious beliefs.
“Even I, growed up in a liberal and agnostic family without religious beliefs, came in my young years into touch with Jewish culture and religion, the common stories and values of Judaism.”
Many Jews like yoursrlf convince yourselves that you are not religious, and then cite religious beliefs. It is a contradiction.
“Obviously you confuse variety with difference, and not only with regard to the Book. Doesn’t surprise me, since you are not Jew and moreover irreparably prejudiced.”
When language and culture is not shared, that is not variety, that is differences.
“History: The ancient history before the Diaspora is shared by all the Jews. ”
No, those are religious beliefs.
“Also Israel is to be considered common Jewish history since it’s the name for the Jewish nation, ok. The dream of Erezt Israel is contained in the prayer born in the Jewish Diaspora at the end of every Passover seder since the Babilonian exile.”
Ecetpt the early 20th century, most Jews did not hold that dream. Indeed, most Jews were not Zionsts (including those in Paelstine) and rejected the idea of a Jewish state.
“By the way, 99% of the Jews support Israel and its right to exist. Even if they don’t live in Israel right now. They are ok where they live, scattered in the wide world, but a part of their soul is with Israel.”
Actually it’s a lot less than that and the numbers are falling.
“If you have, on the other hand, archeological, biological and historical evidence about the Palestinian roots, so you have to show it beyond the banal reiteration of the myth.”
The only evidence we have is that there is no evidence of a Kingdon of Israel, that David was a myth, as was Solomon and that there was no exile.
“This applies also to the Palestinians and the “Arab nation”, don’t you think?”
Indeed, but no one has relied on myths to argue the claim of Palesrinians to the land. That is purely historical.
David, thank you for your frank response.
As Jew I don’t claim any dominance over others. Nor I think Israel treats non-Jews differently on principle. But there is an ongoing war between the Jews of Israel and her foes. This war began before the establishment of the state of Israel, and no coincidence one of these foes were and still are the Palestinians, starting from Amin El-Husseini, passing by Arafat until Hamas as well as the radical wings of Fatah. Not to mention all the others around Israel.
Your interpretation of history views the Zionists – and Israel as a whole – guilty of this conflict. You repeat the well-known arguments of the critics and bashers of Israel. Conclusion: Israel alone is to blame. I consider this position one-sided and incomprehensibly blind. It doesn’t take into account basic historical facts, it ignores the reasons of the early and later Zionism. It distorts the reality of this conflict.
Israel is not a “light under the nation”, this expression is wrong, Israel is a nation that must survive in a hostile environment, with all the negative conseguences of that condition. As Jew you should t least understand this, even though you and your family do live safe since decades in the U.S. and though you never experienced the effects of the irrational hatred against Jews.
Dear G’d, Shingo, from which remote planet you come from? Can you tell me?
“There’s no such thing as “the Jews, but as Ipointed out, Hebrew is not eh language fo Jes in teh diaspora, therefore the langue is not shared.”
Spellcheck, Shingle. I mean really, you can’t blame your Iphone forever.
This one makes no sense. Diaspora communities do not have to speak the same language for a language to be shared. Greek-Americans don’t all speak Greek.
““Culture: The Old Testament is shared by orthodox as well as liberal Jews in Israel and in the whole wide world.”
That’s nto (sp) culture, that’s religious beliefs.”
Old Testament, Talmud, etc. It’s culture.
“Ecetpt the early 20th century, most Jews did not hold that dream. Indeed, most Jews were not Zionsts (including those in Paelstine) and rejected the idea of a Jewish state.”
Most Jews said “Next year in Jerusalem.” That some were frightened of being accused of dual loyalty does not move me. Anti-Zionists: always profiting from past Jewish subjugation.
“The only evidence we have is that there is no evidence of a Kingdon of Israel, that David was a myth, as was Solomon and that there was no exile.”
What evidence do you have the David and Solomon were myths, and what evidence do you have that there was no exile?
“hey shingo, congrats on making tablet’s list today of notorious antisemites lurking on anti-israel blogs”
If by anti-Semite they mean pro human rights, pro justice, pro peace, pro equality, pro democracy, then I’m flattered.
“Does exist the political will to compromise on different issues (borders, Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, land swaps).”
it does with the Palestinians, not with the Israelis. Thieves don;t usually like to return what they steal.
“By the way, you never thought that your headache could derive from to much anti-Zionist indoctrination?”
No more than anti racist indoctrination would.
“If by anti-Semite they mean pro human rights, pro justice, pro peace, pro equality, pro democracy, then I’m flattered.”
You call yourself pro human rights, pro justice and so on and so forth, yet you deny the Jews of Israel to have a own state in their ancestral homeland, possibly side by side with a Palestinian state.
How should we call this?
“this isn’t about controlling the conversation, this is about antisemitism. you don’t believe that jews are legitimately a people. you’re an antisemite. what’s to argue?”‘
This has nothign to do with antisemitism are you know it. Your arguments are being shredded so in your typically zionuist cowardly fashio, you are reaching for the last remainig ace up your sleeve.
The trouble is that facists liek yourself have used the term so many times and so frweuently out fo context, that it is meaningless today. That juyst goes to illstrate the stupidity and wreklessness of Zionism, becasue real anti Semitism can more easily go unchallenged.
“i don’t have to convince you that my people are real and have legitimate rights.”
You mean, you have no argument, so you’ll simply make out liek you don’t wanna play no more?
“you represent a fringe minority of internet troll whackjobs”
Says the guy who claims to habe afmaily tree going back to King David.
“By the way: of course the Torah, but not all goym understand it ;-)”
Apaprently nor do most Zionsist.
Shingle,
That’s not what they mean.
“Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes”‘
Indeed this is supported by Shlomo Sand’s thesis that the Palestinians are the progency of the oroginal Isralis.
“you guys are raging bunch of antisemites, there’s no question about it.”
Traslation: Everyone is debunking your age old talking points and you can’t win any arguments, so when in doubt, use anti Semitism to explain why you’ve failed.
“But there is an ongoing war between the Jews of Israel and her foes. ”
Seeing as 22 arab states have signed a peace initiative, there needn’t be, but Israel refuses to accept it.
“Conclusion: Israel alone is to blame. I consider this position one-sided and incomprehensibly blind.”
Yes, the rapist has righs too argument. She was wearing a skimpy outfit your honor, she’s to blame.
“It doesn’t take into account basic historical facts, it ignores the reasons of the early and later Zionism.”
Zionism is only 200 years old.
“Israel is a nation that must survive in a hostile environment, with all the negative conseguences of that condition”
Correction: Israel must maintain a climate of hostility in order to continue stealing land and maintaining it’s support.
“Dear G’d, Shingo, from which remote planet you come from? Can you tell me?”
Planet Earth. You may have heard of it or even passe in by while travelling on your space ship.
“You call yourself pro human rights, pro justice and so on and so forth, yet you deny the Jews of Israel to have a own state in their ancestral homeland, possibly side by side with a Palestinian state.”
1. The argument about Israel’s mythincal claim to Palestine has nothig to do with human rights.
2. Unlike you, I have LAWAYs been in favor fo a 2 state solution, though unlike you, I recognize your state has made it impossible.
Shingo- you wrote:
Except the early 20th century, most Jews did not hold that dream. Indeed, most Jews were not Zionsts (including those in Paelstine) and rejected the idea of a Jewish state.
you are confusing the dream with the reality of advocating an actual return to the land in the present tense and the establishment of a state. In fact the Reform movement in America (maybe in Europe as well) wished to undo certain parts of the religion and included in that besides the laws of kashrut and the ritual of the sacrifice in the temple, they wished to assign the dream of the return to Zion to a previous era and to declare that even the Messianic era would have nothing to do with the return to Zion. Those who did not reject tradition, had the dream of returning to Zion, but for the most part did not expect that dream to take place in the near future, but in a far off Messianic era. When they said, “Next year in Jerusalem” they said it in the same way that people say, “peace on earth”, a distant goal, even though stated as a present tense (next year) goal. Thus Herzl stated, “If you will it, it is no legend.” He took a dream and wished to make it a reality. And in fact he succeeded. Unfortunately the root cause for Herzl was not the Jewishness of the dream, but the necessity of the dream, that he gathered from his experience in European society and its rejection of the Jews, both himself in Austria and the antiJewish taunts during the Dreyfus trial. (Unfortunately as well, maybe inevitably, but maybe not, the dream of the Jews returning to Zion involved injustice to the Palestinians already living there.) But to say that there was no dream, when in fact, all traditional Jews held to that dream, is to misstate the facts of the religious traditions of the Jewish religion/society/civilization.
“you are confusing the dream with the reality of advocating an actual return to the land in the present tense and the establishment of a state.”
That’s called a disctinction withotu a difference.
”they wished to assign the dream of the return to Zion to a previous era and to declare that even the Messianic era would have nothing to do with the return to Zion.”
That sounds incredibly self contadictory, but maybe that’s just me.
” But to say that there was no dream, when in fact, all traditional Jews held to that dream, is to misstate the facts of the religious traditions of the Jewish religion/society/civilization.”
If those holding that dream opposed the realiztion of that dream, then it was never a drean to begin with, but merely meaningless passages in a prayer that reamined for th same of tradition.
Shingo- To you they are meaningless passages that remained for the sake of tradition. To the people praying those words, they were living words and a very living dream. I don’t know whether you are religious or were ever religious. People who were raised without religion like to denigrate it, but in fact it is a key part of many people’s lives. To call the words about Jerusalem that Jews prayed three or more times a day “meaningless passages” means that you are either unaware of what religion is about or dismissive of religion. If you reject Jewishness as a nation and assert that Judaism is but a religion and then you tell us that Judaism is about “meaningless passages” then doesn’t that make you anti Jewish?
There has never been any impediment to Jews fulfilling the “dream of returning to Zion.” Jews have always been perfectly free to immigrate to Palestine, and, with few exceptions since 425, to Jerusalem.
No one was stopping them. It was a dream, therefore, only to be honored in the breach and not reality. Jews gave lipservice every year to the idea of going to Jerusalem, but they always found reasons not to do it.
It’s nothing but hypocrisy to suddenly decide that this is a requirment which all Jews must fulfill, after so many centuries of neglect.
>> People who were raised without religion like to denigrate it, but in fact it is a key part of many people’s lives.
I was raised Roman Catholic, and yet I no longer believe in religions, gods (one, many or any) and – specific to Catholicism – transubstantiation. You were raised with religion, so you must therefore believe that Jesus is god, born of the Virgin Mary, and that Catholics consume his actual body and blood during Mass. I can’t imagine that you would denigrate the realities of these beliefs by ridiculing them or, worse, doubting them.
>> To call the words about Jerusalem that Jews prayed three or more times a day “meaningless passages” means that you are either unaware of what religion is about or dismissive of religion.
No more dismissiveness of the significance of Jerusalem to Muslims! The believe in it, it’s a significant part of their faith and they even include it in their prayers!
link to jerusalemites.org
link to themodernreligion.com
link to israelipalestinian.procon.org
“It will not matter to them that you’re a principled guy who knows much more than they do and has much more real experience in the region than they do.”
Yeah, no kidding Hopmphi, His grandmother even has a family tree that dated back to King David, so he’s a real bad ass when it comes to facts and experience of the region.
“These people are not peaceniks. They’re extremists.”
Yes, in the Orwellian world of the Zionism, anti war is extremism.
“If you have, on the other hand, archeological, biological and historical evidence about the Palestinian roots, so you have to show it beyond the banal reiteration of the myth.”
Palestinian Christians, 32% of the Palestinians, are among the first Christians on the planet, they’ve been natives at the very least least since the time of Jesus. Their origins vary, Canaanites, Jebusites, converted Jews( who followed Jesus) and Arabs. They NEVER left the land. They certainly did not come from anywhere else.. This is not a myth..
The Arab conquest of Jerusalem and Palestine took place in 638 AD..I’ll do the math again for you. That was 1362 years ago. When the crusaders conquered Jerusalem in 1099 AD, their reign lasted only 100 years until the Arabs reconquered it and stayed ever since!…This is not a myth. That’s documented history.
Additionally, according to the historians/scholars, Israel Finklestein, Ze’ev Herzog and Shlomo Sand, Many Jews converted to Islam during the conquest period and are the ancestors to a large portion of today’s Palestinians..
Geez…You should know all this. Nothing mythological about it.
“you deny my being in total because you choose to believe that my history isn’t true. ”
Your total being is nothing but the story you have learned about the Jews? What an insubstantial, hollow, person you must be, even if that story is true. Might I use the hackneyed phrase “Get a life”?
And the fact that you would disappear in a puff of smoke if the story turns out not to be true is no guarantee that the story is true.
God might not, but as an afficianado of dreadful puns, I do.
no, I’m not interested in “lern[ing] how to bash on Israel,” Israel does a good enough job all by itself.
I’d like to know why zionists are so eager to incite hate and division, though. Where does that come from? Isn’t it counterproductive? In my tradition, we say, “Where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is despair, hope; where there is injury, pardon.”
What don’t I understand about the Jewish religion or Israel that would make it make sense to demonize people and attack them and try to starve them and expect the outcome to be Peace? What am I missing?
“Tablet posted a story this morning from Lee Smith called “Mainstreaming Hate” that attacks Mondoweiss, Andrew Sullivan, Glenn Greenwald, Walt-Mearshimer and . . . Shingo!”
I must admit to being flattered to be mentioned in the company of Phil, Greenwald and Meareshimer, though it is odd that I be accused of hate speech when in the same thread, a pro Israeli proponent threatened to “fuck my mother”.
The real gem of course is that no one was able to refute my statement that there was no evidence ( historical or archeological) that the state of Israel existed. I challenged anyone on that thread to prove me wrong, and like Lee Smith, all they were able to do was become increasingly outraged while they scraped together a handful if Wiki links that either referenced the Old Testament or included the caveat that they were inconclusive.
Needless to say, the fact that Smith references The Weekly Standard to make his case speaks volumes.
“I’d like to know why zionists are so eager to incite hate and division, though. Where does that come from? Isn’t it counterproductive?”‘
It’s not a mystery if you consider that Israel is a colonial enterprise, and like all colonial endeavors, is based on the formula of divide and conquer.
jonah, you “don’t claim any dominance over others?” Glad to hear it, but you do support a system that does impose Jewish dominance over non-Jews. You don’t “think Israel treats non-Jews differently on principle?” I could not disagree more. I think that is Israel’s founding principle, to create a Jewish State where Jews are valued more highly. You blame “an ongoing war between the Jews of Israel and her foes” for the fact that Palestinians are treated as inferiors? This makes no sense to me. What would Israel have to lose in this war if it granted Palestinians full equality in housing, education, employment and every other public sphere? You claim that this “war began before the establishment of the state of Israel.” Perhaps. The Zionists inspired massive emigration of European Jews to create their own state on land inhabited by others; what did you expect of the native inhabitants? Were they supposed to voluntarily self-ethnically cleanse? You say I repeat lines of Israeli bashers. Perhaps again. But you make no attempt to refudiate (everyone’s new favorite word) anything I say, other than to say I’m blind and one-sided. Your criticisms are so non-specific as to be meaningless. I predict, and more importantly, I hope for, a peaceful transformation of the Jewish State to a state that treats all its citizens equally. It’s not a simple flick of the switch, but the Israeli Jews, who hold all the power now, are the ones who have to change and agree to share power eually to end the conflict.
potsherd- Ever heard of waiting for the messiah? Ever heard that Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah and Jews believe that the messiah has not arrived yet, but will some day arrive. One of the lines in the song I learned as a young believing Jew went, “I believe with a full faith in the coming of the messiah, and even though he may tarry, I will wait for him on any day that he will come.” What does it mean to pray three times a day, “and to Jerusalem your city, in your mercy return, and rebuild it quickly in our day a permanent rebuilding.” What does it mean to pray three times a day, “blow the horn of redemption and lift the ensign to gather our exiles and gather us from the four corners of the earth.”
The Jews yearned for the Messiah to fulfill the dream. It was a dream that kept the Jews going.
And along came some secular Jews and said, “Europe is going to kill us. We better make common cause and move ourselves and stop believing that this is but a dream that must wait for the Messiah, but we must take history into our own hands or else we will perish here.”
Thus we have a religious dream taken by the seculars to save the Jews from the freight train that was headed their way. Unfortunately the Zionist movement started too late and fulfilled its destiny after the freight train ran over the majority of Jews in Europe.
To take this narrative and call it nothing but hypocrisy is to be blind to the history of the Jewish people. Is it blindness or is it hatred? Tell me potsherd, which is it?
If Israel was responsible for saving the Jews, then how come it wasn’t founded until after the death camps of Nazi Germany were closed?
See, it’s not much of a mythology even, WJ, when it breaks down under simple analysis of cause and effect.
“and gather us from the four corners of the earth.”
WJ
This statement is wrong. The earth doesn’t have corners..It’s a sphere.. :) :)
he didn’t reference your narrative WJ, he referenced this:
granted the holocaust changed things but the drive to colonize jerusalem in earnest started prior to that in the late 1800. at that time while jews had settled in many other places the people who remained true to the land, stayed there and raised families there century upon century (as the vast majority of jews chose not to) most people would find that compelling evidence they deserved to be able to stay there and prosper. the palestinians deserved the independence pledged to them then as now, a promise still unfulfilled. the ptb chose the jews and the expense of the arab population. the hypocricy potsherd spoke of was wrt generations of jews praying for a land they made no effort to even visit. not unsimilar to american jews today who have never even traveled there. it is one thing to pray three times a day to go to jerusalem but after centuries of abandonment it takes lots of chutzpa to think you are owed something just because you prayed about it. furthermore people who are religious have no greater rights or desires than others who do not share the religion, secular or otherwise.
do you live in israel WJ? if you do not how can you reconcile the fact you pray for something everyday and yet don’t get your ass over there? and why should american jews who have never even had a desire to go there have more rights in israel than those who have never left? it’s full of hypocrisy, you’re just so ‘inside your bubble’ you don’t see it.
annie- I was not asserting Jewish rights to Israel over the rights of the indigenous. I was asserting the Jewish connection to the land. Not that it should override the Palestinian connection to the land, but that it should not be dismissed as a dead dream. Obviously Zionism comes up against the reality of the Palestinians and you are asserting, “Which counts more a dream or a reality.” But to dismiss it as a dead dream is just plain untrue.
Firstly, I live in Jerusalem currently. Secondly I don’t pray three times a day anymore. Thirdly, if you begin with an attitude of “inside your bubble” and hypocrisy, then you are obviously not attuned to discussion, dialogue or conversation, but accusation. If you take it down a notch or two, maybe you can discover something about a culture that is foreign to you, but wasn’t foreign to your great grandparents. (I think you mentioned that you are a yehudiya.)
The move to colonize Israel or Palestine or the land or Jerusalem began in earnest in 1881 with the pogroms in Czarist Russia after the assassination of the Czar Alexander II. It was the anti yehudi pogroms that moved secular yehudi russians to realize that the russians viewed them as outsiders and they better vamoose. Most Yehudis vamoosed to America, but some Yehudis were looking for a more national solution rather than just an individual solution and thus the move to Jerusalem. Herzl “saw” the disaster coming the way of the Yehudis. He was not a socialist but was attracted to nationalism, firstly German nationalism, but when he tried to join a German nationalist society they told him where to go, and he realized that German nationalists did not consider the Jews one of them. This “news” was brought home to him when he covered the Dreyfus trial and heard chants of “Death to the Jews” outside the courtroom. Our days here are numbered, he foresaw. And he was right.
eljay- I seldom get into discussions about which religion is more connected to Jerusalem. Obviously Jerusalem is not the top city to the Islamic faith, but I was not attempting to assert Judaism’s primary connection to Jerusalem. Rather I was asserting that those who dismiss Judaism’s connection to Jerusalem as a dead dream are dead wrong. Whether the Jewish connection is strong enough to preempt the Palestinian connection, I understand where people object to that idea. Again I was not asserting the Jewish people’s primacy, I was merely asserting the connection.
“\He was not a socialist but was attracted to nationalism, firstly German nationalism, but when he tried to join a German nationalist society they told him where to go, and he realized that German nationalists did not consider the Jews one of them. This “news” was brought home to him when he covered the Dreyfus trial and heard chants of “Death to the Jews” outside the courtroom. Our days here are numbered, he foresaw. And he was right.”
Fascinating insight WJ. Thanks for the background.
What interests me however, is at what point Herzl decided that anti Semitism was an asset and the best friend of the future Israel. Those hardly sound like the words of someone trying to flee those chanting “Death to the Jews” .
“The “Palestinians”, whose name was forged by Arafat in 1964, are mainly Arabs from neighboring countries, many of the immigrated in Palestine in the last century during the British Mandate”
Oh, no, you’re unreal! I already debunked your claims and you admitted that you made a mistake already!!! And now you bring back the same pile of horseshit ..So tell me once for all.. What has become of those Arabs/Muslims who conquered Jerusalem in 638 AD, built Al Aqsa and the rest? What has happened to those who defeated the Crusaders in 1189AD? Left the area and went back to “Arabia” shopping for dates?
This is a serious question, asshole…
“Oh, no, you’re unreal! I already debunked your claims and you admitted that you made a mistake already!!! And now you bring back the same pile of horseshit ..”
It happens al the time with these Zionazi cyborgs. They read from a prepared set of talking points, and when they get to the end, they simply dust themselves off and start all over again. They count on the chance that they won’t be caught out the next time around.
Witty used to do it all the time.
But… but..the bugger sounded sincere when he admitted having made a mistake..
I don’t believe how they can do that..
“I don’t believe how they can do that..”
They lie to themselves as much as to others. It’s a non stop process of self deception.
I’ve lost count of the number of times Witty has been refuted over who broke the 2008 ceasefire and therefore started the war. No matter how many facts have been thrown at him, or how many times, Witty always returns to claim that Hamas started it.
“Obviously Jerusalem is not the top city to the Islamic faith,”
Not THE top city, true but a top city still. One of three “tops” actually:
“Jerusalem was the first Qiblah for Muslims – the place toward which Muslims turn in prayer. It was many years into the Islamic mission (16 months after the Hijrah), that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was instructed to change the Qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca (Qur’an 2:142-144). It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad said, “There are only three mosques to which you should embark on a journey: the sacred mosque (Mecca, Saudi Arabia), this mosque of mine (Madinah, Saudi Arabia), and the mosque of Al-Aqsa (Jerusalem).”
And, this brings us back to our subject of old.. Jerusalem (Al Quds) in the Qura’n:
“The event of Isra’ and Mi’raj is mentioned in the Qur’an, in the first verse of Chapter 17 entitled ‘The Children of Israel.’
“Glory to Allah, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless – in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things.” (Qur’an 17:1)
link to islam.about.com
Having said that, the religious significance of Jerusalem is insignificant to me personally. I value more the human, historical attachment to a location than it’s place and rank in their belief system..
So obviously, Al Quds is more important (religiously speaking) than Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo, Qom or Najaf..What more can be said?
“The “Palestinians”, whose name was forged by Arafat in 1964, ”
What’s more is that I personally, intimately, know that this is false. My dad was in the Lebanese army which fought (and was injured) the Israelis in 1948 in the battle of Malkiyeh..And you know how veterans are like, always telling the same stories about “their” war.. He used to always, always start like this: “Kunna fee Falastin (We were in Palestine).. We went to help the Palestinans (falastiniyyeh) ,( not the “Arabs” but specifically the “Palestinians”) to get back their lands.. We repelled the Israelis and captured El Malkiyyeh..We stopped there waiting for orders to advance but the orders came that we should retreat to the borders.” Once I asked him “but why?” He used to say, “Those were the orders. Betrayel!”
“Falastiniyyeh”…Jonah, you SOB!! Did you read that? That was well before 1967…Not by Arafat, but my own dad…
>> eljay … I was not asserting the Jewish people’s primacy, I was merely asserting the connection.
Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate that you were able to see beyond the silly mess that was my last post. :-)
“the Israeli Jews, who hold all the power now, are the ones who have to change and agree to share power eually to end the conflict.”
yes David, if the Palestinians agree.
link to aish.com
“yes David, if the Palestinians agree.”
What a pitty that apart from teh article being complete bullshit (blaing the victim for their own plight), it’s also 3 yars out of date, seeing as suicide bombings ended in 2006.
But, Thanky, you are the first among the bunch of Israel bashers who clearly rejects Israel’s right to exist.
Probably because your father could not finish the job, right?
After the suicide bombings came the rockets, not filed in your records, isn’t it?
And then the rocket attacks ended, and Israel still kept on murdering Palestinians with US-supplied helicopter gunships.
Cherry-picker, heal thyself.
“But, Thanky, you are the first among the bunch of Israel bashers who clearly rejects Israel’s right to exist.”
No state has a right to exist. Israel just happens to be the only state whi;s propagandists uses that carnard to invent a point of contention to stonewall the peace process.
No state has a right to exist.
“After the suicide bombings came the rockets, not filed in your records, isn’t it?”
The rockets came after the blockade and after Israel’s 7,700 shells were fired into Gaza as a parting gift. Was that files in your records?
Israel will NEVER be allowed to live in peace – because it’s a colonial entity, a foreign implant in a sea of rebelling natives.
So how long you gonna fight the inevitable for?
You think just because you got nukes you gonna be left alone?
Get real and get the big picture: squatters, especially the thuggish, crusty types, eventually get evicted – usually by force.
“The rockets came after the blockade and after Israel’s 7,700 shells were fired into Gaza as a parting gift. ”
Really? You are lying again shingo. If you would acknowledge the timeline in the immediate aftermaths of Israel’s evacuation from Gaza, which was completed by September 12 2005, you would know that on September 24, a barrage of rockets launched by Palestinian terrorists injuried five Israelis in Southern communities. The rocket attack was launched in retaliation for the killing of 20 Palestinians in Gaza the previous day because of an Hamas-made explosion for which Hamas deceitfully blamed Israel.
And that was only the beginning of a nearly continuous rocket terror by the extremist Palestinians till December 2009.
But of course you don’t know, and if maybe you know you prefer to close your eyes and ears.
“Israel will NEVER be allowed to live in peace – because it’s a colonial entity, a foreign implant in a sea of rebelling natives.”
Do you think that this will help you Palestinians to live better? Well, good luck, Taxi-boy …
Well jonah, don’t go crying to your mama when israel collapses and I promise I won’t be saying: I told you so.
” If you would acknowledge the timeline in the immediate aftermaths of Israel’s evacuation from Gaza, which was completed by September 12 2005, you would know that on September 24, a barrage of rockets launched by Palestinian terrorists injuried five Israelis in Southern communities. The rocket attack was launched in retaliation for the killing of 20 Palestinians in Gaza the previous day because of an Hamas-made explosion for which Hamas deceitfully blamed Israel.”‘
Typical bullshit.
Hamas had nothing to di with what turned out to be a harmless explosive device that harmed no one, but still, Israel used that as an excuse to kill 20 Palestinians.
Israel then proceeded to fire 7,700 shells into Gaza over the follownig 10 months.
“And that was only the beginning of a nearly continuous rocket terror by the extremist Palestinians till December 2009.”‘
False again. hams undertook a unilateral ceasfire from 2005 to mid 2006, until Israel vilated it. Then in 2008, Israel violated a 4 moths ceasfire after that themselves admitted, Hamas had been very careful to observe the ceasefire.
But of course you don’t know, and if maybe you know you prefer to close your eyes and ears.
“you are the first among the bunch of Israel bashers who clearly rejects Israel’s right to exist.”
Whether I’m first or last, why do you need my validation for Israel’s right to exist? Why is that so important to you?
Another question: Are you going to come back and claim that the word Palestinian was forged in 1964 when I told you that my dad (and every Arab for that matter) was using the name since well BEFORE 1948? I expect to do so. Why? Because you have proved more than once that you’re fundamentally, intrinsically dishonest, unwilling to take in a fact that challenges your script..One can tell a hasbarist from a truth seeker.
“Hamas had nothing to di with what turned out to be a harmless explosive device that harmed no one, but still, Israel used that as an excuse to kill 20 Palestinians.”
As usual very ill-informed and misleading, shingo. check your informations and provide serious sources before talking non-sense.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
link to cbsnews.com
Thankgod, here my answers to your questions:
“Whether I’m first or last, why do you need my validation for Israel’s right to exist? Why is that so important to you?”
No, your invalidation is not so important, but that of the directly involved parties, that means the Palestinian factions and the Arab Muslim countries. Or at least the recognition that Israel now exist and will contine to exist.
“Are you going to come back and claim that the word Palestinian was forged in 1964 when I told you that my dad (and every Arab for that matter) was using the name since well BEFORE 1948?
No of course not, but the name “Palestine” referred firstly to a geaographic reality, not to this or that people or nation.
The nationalist movement of the Arab Palestinians awoke in the twenties of the last century. The Zionists became active at the end of the ninteenth century, as you may know.
“One can tell a hasbarist from a truth seeker.”
I’m a truth seeker who looks at reality from another perspective than you do.
“The nationalist movement of the Arab Palestinians awoke in the twenties of the last century. ”
Even if true, so what? The Palestinian Arabs were living in the land. The foreign immigrants came with the intention of driving the Arabs out, and succeeded in doing so and stealing the land.
The rights of the Palestinian Arabs were violated. That shows that the foreign immigrants were evil, regrdless of nationalist movements.
“No, your invalidation is not so important, but that of the directly involved parties, that means the Palestinian factions and the Arab Muslim countries. Or at least the recognition that Israel now exist and will contine to exist.”
If this was as important to Israel as Israeli propagandists would have us believe, then Israel would have accepted the Arab peace initiative 7 years ago.
As usual very ill-informed and misleading, Jonah. check your own sourcesx you Zionazi freak.
Hamas had nothign to do with the blast.
The blast killed Palestinians at a Hamas rally. It was clearly an Israeli operation.
From your own source Jonah.
“Hamas blamed an Israeli helicopter, but the Israeli military denied involvement and the Palestinian Interior Ministry said the blast was set off by the mishandling of explosives.
So clearly this was an attack by Israel, just liek the atatck on the Gaza beach that Israel denied then admitted.
C’on Shingo open your eyes to the truth, stop poisoning yourself with anti-Israel and anti-Jewish indocrination.
Why do I insist on this single not really central fact in recent years’ conflict? Because it’s interesting to see how you and your fellows distort systematically the truth of every possible event without any shame, in order to desperately keep alive the absurd tale of the “good Arabs/Palestinians” versus “bad Israelis/Israel supporting Jews”. You are indeed true champions in denying evidence and propagate lies.
“Hamas has nothing to do with the blast. It was clearly an Israeli operation.”
Of course you have conclusive evidence for your hard-and-fast syllogism, isn’t it?
It’s much more logic and realistic however that the Hamas-pickup loaded with homemade rockets exploded in the middle of a crowded demostration celebrating Israel’s pullout.
Witnesses confirm that,
“The explosion came in the middle of the celebration. The militants are extremely popular with young Palestinians, and teenagers surrounded the pickup before the blast, said Abu Rashad, who was just a few feet away. He said three militants with two homemade rockets were in the truck’s bed, and three or four other militants rode inside.”
the Palestinian officials assert that (for once without any hesitation):
“But Palestinian officials said the blast was set off by the mishandling of explosives. The Interior Ministry issued a statement calling on Hamas “to shoulder its responsibility for these … explosions instead of making accusations against others.”,
the reality on ground speaks for that:
“An accidental explosion would be only the latest in a string of deadly mishaps for militant groups in Gaza.
A Hamas weapons warehouse exploded this month in Gaza City (search), killing six people. Hamas claimed it was an Israeli attack, but Palestinian security forces found the blast was an accident caused by the militants.
During an Islamic Jihad rally at the abandoned Jewish settlement of Netzarim (search) last week, a gunman died after accidentally shooting himself in the head.
Even after the blast Friday, seven or eight gunmen stood in the back of another truck riding through Gaza, using their feet to stop a half-dozen rockets from bouncing around in the bed.”
link to foxnews.com
Your denials and accusations are simply pathetic. Hamas-style.
By the way, the Arab peace initiative claims the right of return of all the refugees with all their millions of descendants, it omits all mention UN Security Council Resolution 242, which insists on the right of all nations in the area to secure borders and requires a negotiated peace. Besides, the Arab Summit resolutions of 2007 also include a series of vituperative and incendiary accusations of Israeli “aggression,” which is not a great way to start off a “peace process.” And last but not least: Arab states rebuffed or ignored Ehud Olmert’s call for a conference to negotiate peace.
A poisoned gift.
“Even if true, so what?”
Histora and reality is a bit more complex than you think, Rawa.
C’on Jonah,
Distort systematically the truth of every possible event without any shame? This coming from someone who slavishly reports the Israeli version of events verbatim years after they’ve already been exposed as lies.
“Of course you have conclusive evidence for your hard-and-fast syllogism, isn’t it?”
Actually I have one very conclusive piece of evidence. Hamas were the target you idiot. Where’s the logic in that? That contradiction hasn’t even occurred to you apparently, so high on Zioncaine that you are.
Your denials and accusations are simply pathetic. Ziofascist-style.
“By the way, the Arab peace initiative claims the right of return of all the refugees with all their millions of descendants, it omits all mention UN Security Council Resolution 242, which insists on the right of all nations in the area to secure borders and requires a negotiated peace.”
Jonah,
Again you demonstrate what a nut job you are. The peace initiative goes above and beyind 242, though thanks for pointing out another resolution that Israel has vilated for 43 years.
The borders 242 refers to are the 1967 borders, which Israel refuses to respect. The peace initiative explicitly cites the 1967 borders. And what greater pece offer can there be than full recognitino than normalization fo relations with all Arab states?
“Arab Summit resolutions of 2007 also include a series of vituperative and incendiary accusations of Israeli “aggression,” which is not a great way to start off a “peace process.”
It’s about time Israel grew up and took it’s medicine like a grown up. Israel carries ouu acts fo agression evry day. Israel demands that the Palestinians renounce violence, yet can can’t bear to be given the same advice.
“And last but not least: Arab states rebuffed or ignored Ehud Olmert’s call for a conference to negotiate peace.”
That would be the same Ehud Olmert that started the war with Gaza in 2008 while a ceasefire was under way?
“A poisoned gift.”
Yes, for Israel, peace has always been a threat.
“By the way, the Arab peace initiative claims the right of return of all the refugees with all their millions of descendants, it omits all mention UN Security Council Resolution 242, which insists on the right of all nations in the area to secure borders and requires a negotiated peace.”
Despicable liar or just an uninformed, uninterested bared-ass nitwit? Your pick joujou……
“… Ehud Olmert that started the war with Gaza in 2008 while a ceasefire was under way?”
‘ceasefire underway’? Of course, shingo:
link to english.aljazeera.net
(al-jazeera – lol!)
“Actually I have one very conclusive piece of evidence. Hamas were the target.”
‘Hamas was the target’, as here:
“About a dozen rockets and mortar bombs were fired from Gaza on Friday. One accidentally struck a northern Gaza house killing two Palestinian sisters, aged five and 13, and wounding a third, Palestinian medics said.”
link to reuters.com
“The borders 242 refers to are the 1967 borders, which Israel refuses to respect. The peace initiative explicitly cites the 1967 borders.”
The are not alone:
link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
“And what greater pece offer can there be than full recognitino than normalization fo relations with all Arab states”.
Lip-services are useless.
Wrong again, baby-shingo.
No thanky, you are disingenuous. Open your eyes and read:
Frpm the declaration of the summit 2002:
“Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194. ”
From the Resolution 194: “Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date…”
Now take a deep breath and reflect on the meaning …
As always Jonah,
Your idea of taking break from lying it to continue to lie even further.
There is nothing in the Peace Initiative that fails to meet the requirements of Resolution 242. Stick that into your Zionazi skull.
So, jonah..You chose rather the despicable liar option, didn’t you?
Here’s what you claimed , liar!
“By the way, the Arab peace initiative claims the right of return of all the refugees with all their millions of descendants, it omits all mention UN Security Council Resolution 242, which insists on the right of all nations in the area to secure borders and requires a negotiated peace.
When the declaration contains nothing of the sort:
“Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194. ”
Where is the mention of “THE RETURN OF ALL THE REFUGEES WITH ALL THEIR MILLIONS OF DESCENDANTS” ?
Lying with a straight face is a specialty of yours. TFOOH!
I mean, we’re not talking over the phone here ! Everything is written and stays written!! Stop lying and apologise, you shmuck..
The israeli tactic: lie lie lie..and when caught, deny you lied and keep denying…
Thanks for the perfect demo, jonah..
Again, thanky, you don’t seem to use your brain in a proper manner, blinded by your anti-Zionist rage. Let’s take again Resolution 194, article 11)
“The General Assembly, 11)”Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date…”
This is an open statement and asserts the possibility for “the refugees wishing to return to their homes” to make that step if they want to. That means in theory and according to basic logic that every refugee regardless of whether “original” or descendant can claims that right. Furthermore the Council of the League of Arab States at the Summit Level, at its 14th Ordinary Session
“assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries”, in other words it postulates the repatriation of all refugees. link to bitterlemons-international.org
Anyway, beyond these reservations, also the Palestinians should be willing to accept it, all of them, not only part of them.
link to ynetnews.com.
Again, thanky, you don’t seem to use your brain in a proper manner, blinded by your Zionism and rampant racism.
There is nothing about the General Assembly statement that limits the number of refugees that should be allowed to return, nor does it stipulate that the descendents of those refugees are ineligible. There is nothing open about the statement.
Furthermore, the rights fo refugees to return to their homes was tested in Kosovo, then the UN asserted that all refugees had the right of returnm including their famlies.
“Anyway, beyond these reservations, also the Palestinians should be willing to accept it, all of them, not only part of them.”
That was a statement made in 2006. Al-Sharq al-Awsat’s statement has been contradicted and over ridden by the elected leader of Hamas, who DID call for a 2 state solution since then.
link to southjerusalem.com
Khaled Mash’al: “(Hamas) cannot oppose the unified Arab stance expressed in the resolution passed by the Arab League summit. That resolution, approved in Beirut, speaks of recognizing Israel and normalizing relations with it in exchange for a full withdrawal and a solution to the refugee problem”. (Rubinstein, Ha’aretz, 2/13/06).
link to haaretz.com
Hamas official suggests ‘two-state’ solution
link to edition.cnn.com
Again, thanky, you don’t seem to use your brain in a proper manner, blinded by your Zionism and rampant racism.
There is nothing about the General Assembly statement that limits the number of refugees that should be allowed to return, nor does it stipulate that the descendents of those refugees are ineligible. There is nothing open about the statement.
Furthermore, the rights fo refugees to return to their homes was tested in Kosovo, then the UN asserted that all refugees had the right of returnm including their famlies.
“Anyway, beyond these reservations, also the Palestinians should be willing to accept it, all of them, not only part of them.”
That was a statement made in 2006. Al-Sharq al-Awsat’s statement has been contradicted and over ridden by the elected leader of Hamas, who DID call for a 2 state solution since then.
Khaled Mash’al: “(Hamas) cannot oppose the unified Arab stance expressed in the resolution passed by the Arab League summit. That resolution, approved in Beirut, speaks of recognizing Israel and normalizing relations with it in exchange for a full withdrawal and a solution to the refugee problem”. (Rubinstein, Ha’aretz, 2/13/06).
Hamas official suggests ‘two-state’ solution
Links to follow
You simply can’t resist the temtation to soil yourself can you Jonah?
Re your first link. Israel broke the ceasefire on Novermber 4th. The Al Jazeer article was dated December. Furthermore, Hamas had already tried to reestablisht e ceasfire with Israel a week earlier and Israel rejected the proposal.
Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet,”told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms.”
Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.
Too funny.
Re your second link. Your earlier stpory reported on an entirely different incident you idiot. Maybe your mind is going, or maybe as they say, you have to have a very good memory when you lie, and yours aint that great.
In any case, your links mentions militants, not Hamas. tgry again you lying dishit.
er your third link, I’m amazed you had the stupidity to link to a page mentioning the Oslo accord given that we have an admission from Neteyahu that he deliberately sabotaged them. May I remind you that under the Oslo agreement, Israel were to stop building settlements on occupied land, but withdraw fom occupied territories.
In any case, this link have absolutely nothing to do with the acceptance or rejection of the 1967 borders.
You seem yo have a real hard time stipking to any one topic or argument. That tends to happe a lot when you’re defending the indefensible.
Wrong again, Zionazi troll.
My, my, Shingo – you are SO patient with trolls.
Where can I buy me some of that big-lunged patience? I freely confess that I ran flat out for ANYTHING INSTRUCTIVE to share with zios ooh say about this time last year. True story.
It’s no patience Tazi,
I just can’t stand pathological liars.
“My, my, Shingo – you are SO patient with trolls.”
Shingo is like a hell of a pit bull fighter. He wouldn’t let go of the guy’s neck until the f###r drops dead..
I myself have too much scorn for this liar to spend one more second on him.
BTW, I haven’t seen Sumud around for quite some time..Any ideas what’s happened?
Whatever it is Shingo, it’s damn good and abundant in you!
Me too thankgodi, I often come very close to touretting-out. I am SO mad at the CONTINUING zio crimes, so pissed-off at their defenders!
Oh cruel, cruel world, I say: you sure do need a slap in the face!
Are you sure you chose the right nickname, Shingo? “Schwindel” seems far more appropriate for you …. Seriously, try to be less vulgar in your wording, you make a poor showing of you Israel-haters. But maybe it has to do with the lack of democratic culture and mentality by Shingo&Co.
“There is nothing about the General Assembly statement that limits the number of refugees that should be allowed to return, nor does it stipulate that the descendents of those refugees are ineligible……The UN asserted that all refugees had the right of returnm including their famlies.”
Indeed, no limits to the number of refugees that should be allowed to return, that is your answer. Try to agree with your friend Thanky on the approximate number.
Hamas and Meshal himself are very snakily ambiguous on the two-states-solution: link to haaretz.com, and it never said (and will say) it wants to recognize Israel. Hamas considers peace negotiations a “waste of time”. Read their Charter, if you don’t already know by mind.
“Hamas had already tried to reestablisht e ceasfire with Israel a week earlier and Israel rejected the proposal.”
Hamas wanted to impose the ceasefire on their conditions – first of all stop of the blockade – but wasn’t willing to comply with the Israeli request to stop rearming. Probably only a test of strength by Hamas to challenge Israel. Nothing serious.
As for link about the killing of both Gazan girls by hamas rockets, this shows – if you brainbox can not get it on your own – that a lot of similar incidents occurred to Hamas or whoever of those Jihad terrorists killing their own people, as happened with explosion during the Hamas rally of September 23 2005. But this seems not conceivable for bigots like you.
The thirth link demostrates that the Palestinians are those who didn’t and still don’t accept resolution 242 by launching their suicide bombing and rocket attacks against Israel.
If their want self-determination, they must renounce their terror and take responsability for their behaviour. I hope they will finally, but I would not bet on that.
Hamas considers peace negotiations a “waste of time”
Well, if this is true, yes, in one of their more lucid moments. It depends on how you define “peace negotiations”, which have rarely been peace negotiations.
Read their Charter, if you don’t already know by mind.
Oh boy…here we go.
And it’s “know by heart“.
Let me get this straight.
Hamas has to stop rearming, but Israel is allowed to have nukes, because it is the ‘only democracy in the Middle East’ (debunked)?
Just calling out the double-standards in the Hasbara talking points that keep being repeated with no end in sight.
How about Israel renouncing state terror and the Palestinians right to ‘exist’?
Jonah,
Lying fascist scum shouldn’t waste their time giving advice to others about vulgarity.
The number of refugees is already well known and the UN gas already established that the right of return is not limited to which members of a family are entitled to that right. I don’t know what your trying to price by proving an even bigger idiot if yourself.
As someone said, you continue to be caught and trapped in your own lies. In one post you claim Hamas rejects s 2 state solution, then in the next you acknowledge that that they do but are ambiguous about it.
You can’t seem to get your story straight, as is always the case with pathological liars.
It’s funny watching you scramble and out fiats out every time your arguments are shredded. Of course,Netenyahu ran on a platform if opposing a 2 state solution and not only has he been ambiguous, he cloaks to support one while building settlements making a 2 star settlement impossible.
And if you want to being up Charters, look up Likud’s and what it says about a Palestinian state.
“Hamas wanted to impose the ceasefire on their conditions – first of all stop of the blockade – but wasn’t willing to comply with the Israeli request to stop rearming.”
You’re such a coulees sack if shit. Istael had already agreed to those conditions in the July 2008 ceasefire, they just rejected on this conditions. Of course, Hamas stuck to the ceasefire anyway.
And BTW. Hamas armaments were never part of this terms.
“The thirth link demostrates that the Palestinians are those who didn’t and still don’t accept resolution 242 by launching their suicide bombing and rocket attacks against Israel.”
Bullshit. 242 is not even mentioned in that link. It’s a potty you never learned to read.
“f their want self-determination, they must renounce their terror and take responsability for their behaviour. ”
Should Israel renounce terror or just Hamas. Oh wait, Israel can’t renounce terror because that would be renouncing Israel’s legitimacy, seeing as that’s how Israel was founded.
“As for link about the killing of both Gazan girls by hamas rockets, this shows – if you brainbox can not get it on your own – that a lot of similar incidents occurred to Hamas or whoever of those Jihad terrorists killing their own people, as happened with explosion during the Hamas rally of September 23 2005. But this seems not conceivable for bigots like you. ”
Can someone make Amy sense of this Zionazi word salad? Jonah sounds like Witty after a self inflicted lobotomy.
My English is not always perfect, shwingo. But you’ve definitely proved to have occluded synapses. No surprice since you are imbued to the brim with toxic anti-Israel bigotry. So be happy in your mental occlusion and stay there please. Peace doesn’t surely need people like you.
“Peace doesn’t surely need people like you.”
I’ll keep that in mind if ever I decide I need advice from a sadistic, lying fascist on the intricacies if peace.
Read their Charter, if you don’t already know by mind.
Read thr Goldstone Report. It reads like a Hamas wet dream.
“I respect that, but there is no such thing as “the Jewish people”.
Oh, of course there is. I mean why not? But it is not the kind of “people” which can support a state in any consistent, let alone democratic or peaceful way.
There is no word which causes more distraction in this debate than “Jewish”.
the Jewish people’s own right to self-determination.
heh
Jews need an Iranian Green Movement.
maybe some of those hijab-wearing women can teach y’all how self-determination is done.
“Jews need an Iranian Green Movement.”
That Iranian “green [bowel] movement” is what $400 million of cia and unknown $ amounts of mossad interference bought ziofascism, inc. in Iran. It was another friendly regime change “color revolution” bought to the world courtesy of what is best washed away using a bidet. See this hard hitting expose of some of the ziofascists selling that crap:
Riding the “Green Wave” at the Campaign for Peace and Democracy and Beyond by Edward S. Herman and David Peterson
link to mrzine.monthlyreview.org
Then check out these two follow-ups:
Chutzpah, Inc.: “The Brave People of Iran” (versus the Disappeared People of Palestine, Honduras, Afghanistan, Etc.) by Edward S. Herman and David Peterson
link to mrzine.monthlyreview.org
The Iran Threat in the Age of Real-Axis-of-Evil Expansion1
by Edward S. Herman and David Peterson
link to mrzine.monthlyreview.org
I suspect that as well, hayate, that Iran’s Green revolutions is really red, white, and pale blue.
but I try never to let facts get in the way of good snark.
“but I try never to let facts get in the way of good snark.”
Ah, gotcha.
“Red, white and pale blue” – I like that. :D
mobius1ski,
What the heck is this thing ‘the Jewish people’?
That’s MOSTLY a bunch of people from all around the world who through conversion follow the jewish religion, started by some desert semites some three thousand years ago.
Do these ‘converts’ have the right to gather up and claim a semitic piece of real estate?
Heck NO!
It ain’t about the ‘right of jews to self-determination’ – that’s just another way of covering up the facts of the collosal crime. Its about land theft, land theft, land theft, land theft oh yeah and the continuing murder of the natives!
Philosophise all you like, fact remains: Israel is a colonilalist entity and NO we shouldn’t let it slide just because it’s jewish!
Just get out of Palestine. You have no moral or historic right to be there.
The reason that Jews are not Colonialist is because the land is in fact, under international and religious law, Jewish land. In this case you cannot be a colonialist in your own land.
Also it should be referred to as Israel and not as you say “Palestine”
“The reason that Jews are not Colonialist is because the land is in fact, under international and religious law, Jewish land. In this case you cannot be a colonialist in your own land.”
The land under international law stops at the Green line and religious has no consequence to other religion or aethieists.
“Also it should be referred to as Israel and not as you say “Palestine”"
Inside the 1967 borders yes. Beyond that, it is Palestine.
Incorrect, Israel is entitled to all of what you call “Historic Palestine” Palestine Mandate, or the Land of Israel. This is clearly legal under international law.
The holy lands belong to Arabs. Arab jews, Arabs moslems and Arab christians.
There’s no spinning this old biblical fact.
So no, non-Arab jews DO NOT OWN the holy lands and they never will be allowed to. Not because they’re jews, but because the land simply ain’t theirs.
Sounds like racism to me. Arabs only? Sort of like whites only in South Africa
Sounds like you’re playing dumbfuckeries to me, maximalistNarrative!
German jews are from Germany. Polish jews are from Poland. Russian jews are from Russia. Arab jews are from all over the Arab lands.
How the fuck is that racist, asshole?!
“Sounds like racism to me. Arabs only? Sort of like whites only in South Africa”
The correct analogy would have been blacks only in South Africa. You’re the one defending apartheid. But what does one expect from a religious wingnut?
“Incorrect, Israel is entitled to all of what you call “Historic Palestine” Palestine Mandate, or the Land of Israel. This is clearly legal under international law.”
Absolutely false. There are nearly a hundred UN Resolutions (the basis if international law) demanding the Israel withdraw from the occupied territories.
There has never been any such thing as a Land of Israel. Only religious nut cases believe it that trope.
“The reason that Jews are not Colonialist is because the land is in fact, under international and religious law, Jewish land. ”
A sudden drop of 50 IQ points have been observed today..No one was sure why until we saw this comment..
This proves what I said for some time, which is that the anti-Zionists and the rightists are allies. Both favor an impracticable solution. In the rightist fantasy, the Palestinians stay and are granted less than equal rights. In the leftist fantasy, the Palestinians reverse 1948, and the Jews become a subjugated minority.
In either scenario, one side will be disadvantaged.
It is always easy for the extremists to criticize the moderates.
“This proves what I said for some time, which is that the anti-Zionists and the rightists are allies. Both favor an impracticable solution. ”
What can be more impratical that insisting in the creation of a state on pockets of land thatcsnmot possibly accommodate one?
What is more impratical than maintaining s state who’s distance is incumbent upon peroetualwsr and maintaining military superiority over it’s neighbors at the largesse of a benefactor who might soon be too bankrupt to finance it?
hophmi – what is your prescription? A Jewish State and a Palestinian State? And what of the Palestinian citizens of the Jewish State? Do they have to accept second-class citizenship forever?
Why do the Jews have to become a subjugated minority in one state with equal rights for all? I’m a Jew in the US where we are a tiny minority of the population. Am I subjugated? I don’t feel subjugated. I feel equal to every other citizen here. Sure, I have to bow to the will of the majority, or elected representatives, on numerous issues, but that goes with a “democracy.” Why do the Jews of Israel, who would comprise much higher numbers in one state, need more protection than I have?
“Why do the Jews of Israel, who would comprise much higher numbers in one state, need more protection than I have?”
Because many Israelis have, in every conceivable kind of organised effort or individual temerity, committed crimes against Palestinians? I mean, there is that. Will an amnesty be possible? Truth and Reconciliation? A legal process, with punishments and fines? I hate to bring it up, but beyond the general crime of the occupation, there’s a whole lot more.
It would require, in any case, a superhuman degree of forebearance, forgiveness, and acceptance on the part of the Palestinians.
“A Jewish State and a Palestinian State? And what of the Palestinian citizens of the Jewish State? Do they have to accept second-class citizenship forever?”
And what of the Jewish citizens of the Palestinian state? If there is a two-state solution, protection of minority rights will obviously be part of the deal, and if Israel does not perceive the Palestinians to be a threat, as they won’t if there is a successful two-state solution, I believe they will eventually become completely equal.
“Why do the Jews have to become a subjugated minority in one state with equal rights for all?”
Because there is every indication that that is what will happen. This is not the US. This is Middle East.
“And what of the Jewish citizens of the Palestinian state? If there is a two-state solution, protection of minority rights will obviously be part of the deal, and if Israel does not perceive the Palestinians to be a threat, as they won’t if there is a successful two-state solution, I believe they will eventually become completely equal.”
If that were true, then Israel wouldn’t have invaded an occupied Lebanon for 18 years, or attacked every other state in it’s vicinity.
“Why do the Jews have to become a subjugated minority in one state with equal rights for all?”
Because there is every indication that that is what will happen. This is not the US. This is Middle East.”
Jews were subjugated by Western states to a far greater degree than they were in the Middle East.
Iran is a very good example. In Iran and Turkey, Jews are considered people of the book and protected by law, which is why 25,000 Jews in Iraq refuse to migrate to Israel, even under offer of bribes.
Jewish citizens in a Palestinian State can be equal, just as Jewish citizens of the US are equal. Non-Jewish citizens of a Jewish State cannot be equal, by definition.
As for Jews necessaily becoming a subjugated minority, white South Africans had far more to fear. They were outnumbered 5 or 6 to 1 when apartheid was abolished. Jews are about 50% now of what would be a one-state solution. It would require careful transformation, but certainly would not be impossible.
The zionist prescription is simple: now that it is established, to their satisfaction, that one group must necessarily be disadvantaged, it can not be the Jews.
What Mr. Cook reports here seems to me to be a very interesting phenomenon and I wonder if it doesn’t have something to do with some of the hidden facets that inhere in all fundamental political philosophies including “the Left” and “the Right.”
That is, one of the kind of hidden aspects of those two dueling philosophies involves a kind of … temporal distinction between them, and a “faith” distinction between them too.
Thus “the Right” or “conservatives” or whatever you want to call them clearly seem to be a bit more beholden to the past than “the Left” or liberals, and seem to have somewhat less automatic faith in the future too. And I don’t mean to say that this is either good nor bad since, just as with most things, such a perspective can have both its good and bad consequences. Obviously though its bad aspects are captured by the charges against them that they are retrograde, backward-looking thinkers if not neandethals, non-trusters in “the people” or “democracy,” reactionaries, and etc. and so-forth.
With “the Left” and “liberals” it seems to me you find a more forward looking perspective, and, almost as a necessity for those with same, in general a more optimistic view of how things are going to go too, even if the way forward is very much unclear. There’s just a lot of faith that no matter what happens their political ingenuity will overcome same, with a somewhat consequent necessity of this breeding the idea that certainly we ought not be limited to old ideas and formulations and standards—if indeed we should pay any attention to them at all— since they obviously contributed to whatever present problems we have. In short, very much a belief in progress and “new solutions,” and of course this can be a very exciting ideology that commands alot of popularity, at first at least. Witness the popularity of FDR and the New Deal, and the excitement JFK stimulated and etc., not to mention the excitement the formation of the USSR stirred around the world, or the French Revolution.
So what’s going on here that Mr. Cook observes? I wonder if it isn’t some dour Israeli “conservatives” looking to the future and seeing a line that they believe history says ought not be crossed which is, if there isn’t a one-state solution, the need for Israel in the foreseeable future to engage in out-and-out ethnic cleansing, full-scale. And I wonder if what we’ve seen in the past with the Israeli “left” that, as Cook notes, has been behind so much of what has gone on, hasn’t had something to do with the willingness of people of “the Left” to disregard old standards and restrictions, to see them as being simple impediments no different than old handcuffs that have to be broken off or disregarded if the future is going to be expanded into and grasped.
Does seem to me to be a somewhat valid concern about “the Left” and “liberals” that they can seem to jump form enthusiasm to enthusiasm in an almost faddish way. It was after all the liberal Wilson who piled into WWI and then, even worse, saw the need to “nationalize” security and go about arresting people like Debs. Liberals and “the Left” then turned in the late 20′s and early ’30′s to accuse business of having been behind the war, but of course it was then FDR who clearly itched to get us into WWII even as he said he would never do so. Likewise it was Truman who sent troops into Korea without a whit of Congressional debate and almost as a fit of rightousness, and JFK and LBJ getting us into Vietnam big-time. The peace movement then comes along and there’s that for awhile, but who then did we see especially plumping for the U.S. to get involved in the Balkans int he ’90′s and loving the smell of jet-fuel in the morning?
This says nothing whatever about the equally bad if not worse aspects of “the Right” or “conservatives,” but just to make an observation trying to explain one aspect of the phenomenon noted here which is again how could the Israeli “Left” or “liberals” do this to the Palestinians? And then to also pose a possible answer as to why we now see some on the Israeli “Right” uttering the unthinkable and saying that no, they won’t cross that bridge into wholesale expulsion and ethnic cleansing or open apartheid in the end.
Interesting too in the U.S. where I kind of get the sense that the so-called “paleo” conservatives are the ones who are deserted George Bush with all his wars and his kow-towing to Israel, while its “the Left” or “liberals” in the form of the Dem. party and Obama who, while talking a good game otherwise, are the ones who went along foresquare with Bush’s wars, and don’t seem to have any problem with them now under Obama and indeed seem to be more on board with an attack against Iran than the Republican are even.
I more and more suspect that the powers that be saw to it that Obama was elected because they saw Bush II could never get Social Security “reform” through Congress, whereas they think Obama can. Just as they saw to it that Bill Clinton was elected because they didn’t think Bush I could get NAFTA through Congress, whereas obviously Bill Clinton could.
I just read last night (in Walter Graziano’s Hitler ganó la guerra [Hitler Won the War], which significantly has never been translated into English) that the plutocrats saw to it that the Republican Party split in 1912 and so Woodrow Wilson was elected because the incumbent Taft had indicated he would not support legislation establishing the Federal Reserve, something Wilson got through Congress about as promptly as Bill Clinton got through NAFTA.
Decent piece from Cook. The idea of there being such a thing as left zionism is ludicrous. One might as well talk of a leftwing klu klux klan, leftwing imperialism or leftwing nazis. What the ziofascists/fascists label as left is pr-speak for friendly fascism (per the book by Bertram Gross), a fascism where adverts and soft power replaces the jack boots. The conversion ofthe British Labour party into nulabor isa good example of the zionist [cough] left at work. One can find the same fascism marketed as leftwing politics throughout the English speaking world, and increasingly in the non-English speaking “democracies” as well. None of this shite is leftwing politics any more than mcdonalds is food. This is ziofascists/fascists co-opting the left and turning it into neo-con lite. The ziofascist/fascist co-optation of the right has resulted in a similar freakshow, though less obvious do to the similarities the right has with ziofascism/fascism. The end result now is that these ziofascist/fascist mutated “left” and “right” resemble each other so much, it’s difficult to say which is which. Core of all of this is a few very rich oligarchies playing power games to further their own control of the planet.
As for israel, the so-called right and left there can be called ziofascist management team “a” and ziofascist management team “b”. They work for the same ziofascist/fascist goals and only differ on the methods slightly. They are both controlled by the same oligarchic masters. The real left there among Jewish israelis is so small and marginalised, they have no power at all – and with the new nazi laws just passed, they’ll probably be rounded up and sent to the concentration camps soon. The non-Jews there have all the influence that slaves had in the american slavocracy.
The ziofascists see their old lies are not working like they used to, they made up some new ones to try and stall the inevitable. That shows the desperation mounting among the “rational” ziofascists, the ones who are not masada complexed. Meanwhile, the masada complexed freakshow is busy planning WW3.
They may be different parties, but like the US, they all work for the same team. It’s one of the benefits of the 2 party system, you can always play good guy/bad guy.
And it’s unique that the ziofascist brigade morphed from commie, to neo-conservative to ultimately fascists. When their political party (or nation) finds out about their scheming practices, it’s time to jump ship and entice another party with their significant capitol contributions. It’s why Barack is making nice with their prime minister, although the reading majority knows he’s a scheming crooked con-man.
You forgot:
US Parties: Hegemonic management team A, Hegemonic management team B.
Seems to me, the one thing Edward Said, may God bless him, got wrong was to label these societies as ‘complex’….if anything, it gets down to money and power for the few elites, and pity the rest.
Do our voices ‘matter’?
Handily done fellows, I do not need to say anything. What we witness here is the opening up of the canned Zionist brain – which always turns out to be a can of worms. However, it is irritating (to a small degree) to see them come on this site trying to symbolically caricature anarchism – it must really stick in their craw eh? lol
VR, or Mondoweiss gets a headline on Giyus or megaphone, and they all show up here.
That’s why we need to bug them on their fav Zio sites.
Where is Shmuel?
Yeah, haven’t seen him in a while. Hopefully he’s just on a temporary hiatus from the blog, he’s one of the best commentators we have here.
Working, I believe. Why, do you think he has some obligation to come here and be embarassed, mortified, outraged and disgusted by the zio-trolls?
‘I warn you, suh, that my Grandmother has a sampler which traces my ancestry back to General Robert E. Lee. She picked it up at a garage sale when they foreclosed on Tara. Now begone, you outside-agitatin’ Yankee varmint!’
Phil is so right, an open debate in the US about Israel and Zionism would be fatal to the Zionists.
re Open debate — right you are, fatal to zionism.
which is exactly why zionism has planted Hannah Rosenthal in the State Department to stamp out any flickers of a conversation about zionism.
they’re one ahead of you, Phil; might be because Haim Saban can outspend you and everybody else expect god and George Soros.
but thanks for the effort.
If every bit of political persiflage is an attempt to exterminate the Jews, any offer of compromise is futile. Anotherwords, normal political discourse drives every Zionist, no matter how liberal either to extremes or a mushy word salad a la Witty.
Anyway, I’m just happy to know that 2500 years of persecution and genocide did not keep us from compiling painstaking geneaologies.
Probably there’s something here I’m not seeing. Perhaps someone can explain…
What will keep this Greater Israel from giving most Palestinians the old heave-ho? The preferred method at present for getting rid of any Palestinians whose ideas they don’t like is for the Israelis to arrest them, torture them, and put them under administrative detention. With Greater Israel they’d just have to escort them to the border and kick them out. Isn’t there an extreme likelihood that the slow ethnic cleansing of today will become the massive ethnic cleansing of tomorrow?
Most ideas about a single state are predicated on some goodwill among the Israelis. The idea seems to be that at the last moment the old social-democratic instincts will kick in and they’ll blink, afraid of how they’d look if they kicked everybody out, and start negotiating citizenship. This all ignores the reality of evil. Evil is aggression plus deceit, and the Israeli political class is awash in it. Evil in the form of pure power-worship is also the central dynamic in neo-conservatism, which the institutional leaders of the organized Jewish community in the US seem to have adopted lately, I’m sorry to say.
So what makes anybody think that the Israelis aren’t going to ethnically cleanse the vast majority of Palestinians, and kill those that resist? In fact there is a very good possibility of a genocide, to wit:
1. The Israelis start massive ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the West Bank.
2. In Egypt and one or two other Arabic-speaking countries, the Muslim Brotherhood can no longer sit by, and try for a coup.
3. Pushed by events, militant governments arise is one or two Arab countries. They undertake systematic military intervention, nominally covert but discernible, to stop the ethnic cleansing of their Palestinian brothers. They start to have some success.
4. The Israeli political class at last get to use their nuclear weapons. They bomb the Arab countries’ capitals.
5. Six million Arabs die, at last making the Zionists what they’ve always wanted to be, which is honorary German Christians.
Okay, I know this sounds a little bleak and black, and probably we’ll be stuck with what amounts to a one-state struggle anyway simply because there’ll be no place left to put a Palestinian state even if anybody wanted one. But I’m just saying, evil exists, and systemic evil is addictive. The Israelis will probably ethnically cleanse before they allow a one-state solution to become a possibility. Let’s prepare for that. We’re in a struggle against a very sophisticated form of systemic evil, driven deep into the Israeli soul by the trauma of the Holocaust. They will kill millions before they give up the idea of a demographic majority.
God, what a mess. No wonder Lenny Bruce wanted to check out.
“Isn’t there an extreme likelihood that the slow ethnic cleansing of today will become the massive ethnic cleansing of tomorrow?”
My very firm belief, certitude and conviction is that a slow ethnic cleansing of the West Bank will be completed in the next 5 to 10 years period while the farcical “peace process” is taking place.. This is going to be operated as you say, by deceit, using laws of all varieties to kick the population out..
It is said that if you want to predict future behavior, all you need to do is look at the pattern of behavior in the past.
I fear it’ll be no longer than 5 years. This “one-state” game plan is to achieve world (ie UN) recognition of Israeli sovereignty over West Bank & E Jerusalem while iffing and butting over citizenship (& forget any notion of equality) for the Palestinians themselves. The other Zionist govt (no division remember!) will probably be first to recognize it.
You TGIA and Bumblebye have made your predictions. But I will bet you, a gentleman’s bet, that in ten years on July 21st 2020, no ethnic cleansing will have taken place, that the Palestinian population in the West Bank and East Jerusalem will in fact be larger than it is today.
Spot on..This one-state thingy is too good to be true..I’d love it for sure but the Israeli decision makers and those who put them into office wouldn’t like a single bit..Not as long as “Arabs” are etched in the landscape..
Meanwhile it’s going to be back to the same proven workable ways. Deception and deceit as the most powerful weapon in the arsenal of mass destruction, more powerful than any by product of E=MC square…
Pessimistic? Maybe. I just wish I didn’t know them as well as I do..
Does that mean no more villages & farms will be ethnically cleansed to make way for perhaps a doubling of exclusively Jewish settlements? Does it mean that the Palestinian residents of Hebron can heave a sigh of relief that their Jewish neighbors won’t take over more of their homes & streets? How many more residents of E Jerusalem will have been expelled in that time? It’s a figure that seems to be increasing rather rapidly of late.
Comment above is a response to the bee.
W.J
I wish I could be as optimistic as you are. It certainly would have been better for my general well being..
“that the Palestinian population in the West Bank and East Jerusalem will in fact be larger than it is today.”
Maybe but for how many more colonist settlers pouring in?
WJ
35,000 West bankers registered as “Gazan” are earmarked for expulsion.
Amira Hass:
“that the Palestinian population in the West Bank and East Jerusalem will in fact be larger than it is today.”
In any case, becoming a larger population is not indicative of an improving condition. Look at the Palestinians of inside. They’re a bigger population than they were 10 years ago and they’re still third or even fourth class citizens.
“Palestinians of inside”
Of the inside..
TGIA- A prediction that things will be worse for the Palestinians living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is unfortunately not a long shot and plenty bad. (That this would include ethnic cleansing from within certain parts of the West Bank is certainly within the realm of possibility as well, unfortunately). But the prediction of an ethnic cleansing within 10 years (emptying the West Bank and East Jerusalem) is rhetoric.
wj
Are you trying to say that your definition of ethnic cleansing doesn’t include theft of land, destruction of homes & livelihoods, but only complete exile from the land, or worse? And anything less is “rhetoric”?! Is that a prediction of “reservations” or “bantustans” for those doomed to them, while popping out babies to keep the numbers up?
Bumblebye- I didn’t understand your statement. If your statement was that things would get worse, then I agree that it is highly likely. I thought you meant by ethnic cleansing something complete. This was the quote from TGIA
My very firm belief, certitude and conviction is that a slow ethnic cleansing of the West Bank will be completed in the next 5 to 10 years period while the farcical “peace process” is taking place.. This is going to be operated as you say, by deceit, using laws of all varieties to kick the population out..
It is said that if you want to predict future behavior, all you need to do is look at the pattern of behavior in the past.
And here is your correction to his prediction:
I fear it’ll be no longer than 5 years.
I took TGIA literally and thought when he said “kick the population out” he meant “kick the population out”. And that’s what I thought he and you were referring to. The term ethnic cleansing can refer to many situations (the forbidding of the Jews from entering Jerusalem by the Romans except for once a year was a case of ethnic cleansing) and I didn’t mean to limit the definition of ethnic cleansing. I was reacting to TGIA’s statement as I have herein specified. I’m sorry if I misunderstood.
You could have stopped right there, WJ. The admission of ignorance is plenty explanation for your perspective.
Thank you. Now, are you opposed to this ugly process (to somewhat understate), or not? If the former, are you involved, even in a small way, with attempting to bring it to an end?
Ok, WJ…I really HATE to follow you adopting your own pattern but I’m going to do it any way for the sake of a demonstration.
You said:
“a gentleman’s bet, that in ten years on July 21st 2020, no ethnic cleansing will have taken place”
And then you follow by:
“(That this would include ethnic cleansing from within certain parts of the West Bank is certainly within the realm of possibility as well, unfortunately).”
So which one is it?
You see?! That was rather easy, wasn’t it?! All I had to do was to overlook the gist, the substance, the spirit of your comment in order to focus on the contradiction in your 2 sentences and win myself a couple of points.
Disgusting isn’t it? Yes, and I’m sincerely ashamed of myself for having done that..I wonder where I picked that from…
BTW, I maintain what I said..AN ethnic cleansing will BE completed within 10 years, but for the sake of clarity I’ll have to add: whether it’s going to be a COMPLETE ethnic cleansing (emptying the whole population) I can’t be sure of.
I hope you’re able to see a nuance between “an ethnic cleansing, (partial or non partial) COMPLETED within 10 years” and a COMPLETE ethnic cleansing COMPLETED in 10 years.
I am opposed to the process and have attended two rallies in Sheikh Jarrah to oppose the kicking out of the Arab families from their homes there. (a small token gesture rather than really involvement, I agree). Both rallies were geared towards antiZionists and both made me feel unwelcome. It is much easier going to rallies when you have a bunch of friends going to the same rally which isn’t the case with a loner (a contrarian even) like myself.
TGIA- This was not an instance of nitpicking, but rather sincerely misunderstanding what you were asserting.
(a contrarian even) like myself
I’m glad to see that this fact didn’t escape you and to which you admit. I’m just not sure you realise how serious this condition is…
“TGIA- This was not an instance of nitpicking, but rather sincerely misunderstanding what you were asserting.”
Fair enough. Point taken..
Interesting discussion. Cook seems to suggest that neither left nor right wing Israelis have any intention of relinquishing territories currently colonized (settled). If so, being a leftist must pretty much be limited to advocating for Palestinian civil rights. I was disappointed with Cook’s discussion of the right’s one-state proposals. One possible explanation is that the rightists want to retain the settlements and that they are prepared to go “one state” (with “appropriate limitations” on Palestinian rights) in order to avoid evacuation/return to the ’67 borders. Cook, who is based in Nazareth, could have interviewed at least one of the right wing principals in order to illuminate this proposal more fully.
If you can devote to writing books telling people the country you live in is NOT a democracy, it usual is a democracy.
“If you can devote to writing books telling people the country you live in is NOT a democracy, it usual is a democracy.”
I guess that must make Iran a demoracy then right?
Rachel,
I just visited your site….pretty lame, if you can call parodying Amy Goodman’s fine reporting even that. It’s beyond lame. Pretty mind-numbingly racist/prejudiced, actually, reading the whole thing….people like you need a wake-up call. Try living in Iraq or the Occupied Territories right now and let’s see how you feel about Amy and peace activism.
She’s one of the few news reps I, and many others, respect in the whole Media hoax you call the US News Media.