From the Ynet article "Dog sentenced to death by stoning":
A Jerusalem rabbinical court recently sentenced a wandering dog to death by stoning. The cruel sentence stemmed from the suspicion that the spirit of a famous secular lawyer, who insulted the court's judges 20 years ago, had been transferred into the dog's body.
Several weeks ago, according to the Behadrei Hadarim website, a large dog entered the Monetary Affairs Court near the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Mea Shearim. The dog scared the court's visitors and, to their surprise, refused to leave even after they attempted to drive him away.
One of the judges suddenly recalled that about 20 years ago, a famous secular lawyer who insulted the court was cursed by the panel of judges, who wished that his spirit would move on to the body of a dog (considered an impure animal by Halacha). The lawyer passed away several years ago.
Still offended, one of the judges sentenced the poor animal to death by stoning, recruiting the neighborhood's children to carry out the order. Luckily, the dog managed to escape.
The dark ages are alive and well. All you need is enough comfort for those who have kept the embers burning for all these years. “Oh, daddy, can we stone the XXXs?” “No, not this year, son, but if our people gain sufficient political power, maybe we can stone them next year.”
And the times, they are a changing, aren’t they? remember the alacrity with which the brown-shirts came out of the woodwork, when liberated by Hitler’s bad boys? Well, there are still woodworks. And trolls still ready to come out when the time is right.
The trolls are in Wisconsin too.
The very orthodox Jews have an aversion to dogs. You won’t find dogs as pets in their homes.
This is Biblically-based. Dogs have a terrible rep in the Hebrew Bible.
For example: Proverbs 26:11 and many more
This Biblical expression entered Hebrew language and Jewish culture and still has currency.
According to the Ynet article that this posting links to, the story is somewhat less exciting. An unnamed official of the court admitted that children had been told to throw stones at the dog “to drive it away”, rather than stone it to death.The dog cooperated and the operation was successful.
Again Adam, I’m mystified by your penchant for posting stories like this, which, besides showing your ability to distort the article, shows your willingness to engage in exactly the kind of orientalism, paternalism, and chauvinism you accuse other of when they post (much more common) stories of backwardness in the Arab world, where, in places like Saudi Arabia, women can’t drive and elsewhere, people die in protests about political cartoons. But, apparently, a novelty story about what some random Beis Din said about a dog is more important to you.
This is in the category of let’s see how we can embarrass Judaism today.
I knew you’d whine about this post.
Look hophmi, no one is asking you to continue visiting this blog. You post as if you’re eyes are pried open, bound to your chair, being forced to read every thread on Mondoweiss.
And PREDICTABLY, you instead use Zionist debating tactic #3: ‘the world sucks’.
It’s not even that YOU think it embarrasses Judaism. It’s ANYTHING negative about your ilk (not Jews, not Judaism, but Zionism and how this article reflects on Zionism and Israel). You have to come here and whine and then change the subject to blah blah blah elsewhere.
So it wouldn’t matter whether it was some odd case of a Rabbi doing something weird (plus would this story EVER air in the US? No, but we’ll hear tons about how Israel invented the wheel, internet and velcro, and Muslims/Arabs are backwards) – OR if it’s something like Israel using live ammunition on protesters.
I am surprised to agree with Hophmi.
It is a cheap shot that is below the quality of this blog.
Howdy, Cliff. Robert Werdine/Michael Lefavour here.
Said you: “Look hophmi, no one is asking you to continue visiting this blog.”
And no one is asking for your permission to register comments here, either, so cool it. Your intolerant, choking-with-rage tantrums at the slightest sign of a dissenting viewpoint are becoming rather tiresome. Try argument instead of bile and rage.
Phil and Adam seem to have created this blog with some very specific reasons, and one of them wasn’t to stifle dissent and debate. In their own words:
“1) To publish important developments touching on Israel/Palestine, the American Jewish community and the shifting debate over US foreign policy in a timely fashion.”
And..
“2) To publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on these important issues.”
I doubt very much that the dialogue and debate they had in mind was all confined to one viewpoint. So get an argument. And get a grip.
LeFavour,
You are a troll and sock-puppet. Your regular filibuster on the blog does not fall under the category of ‘promoting dialogue’.
I was accurate too – hophmi whines incessantly. In fact, he posts as if he’s being held at gunpoint to surf this blog.
To say you – a pathetic Zionist hack (pretending to be Arab and then spouting text-book long-winded hasbara nonsense) – have no credibility is an understatement.
Don’t insert yourself into the conversation. You’re a joke.
Another devastating riposte. Ouch.
“Look hophmi, no one is asking you to continue visiting this blog. You post as if you’re eyes are pried open, bound to your chair, being forced to read every thread on Mondoweiss.”
I call out hate where I find it, including in my own community. And I assume people like Adam and Phil care to know about it. And if they don’t, someone else might. One day, Adam might explain why he feels it is necessary to engage in this kind of anti-Jewish activism.
“And PREDICTABLY, you instead use Zionist debating tactic #3: ‘the world sucks’.”
Really? I didn’t realize that placing things in their proper context and pointing out a clear double standard was a “Zionist debating tactic.” I guess being right is also a Zionist debating tactic.
“It’s not even that YOU think it embarrasses Judaism. It’s ANYTHING negative about your ilk (not Jews, not Judaism, but Zionism and how this article reflects on Zionism and Israel). You have to come here and whine and then change the subject to blah blah blah elsewhere.”
What is the article doing here? You tell me. Does it help the Palestinian cause? Does it say anything substantive about Zionism? No. It’s here for one reason and one reason only – to pander to those Mondoweiss readers who take pleasure in reading stories that cast Judaism in a negative light.
“So it wouldn’t matter whether it was some odd case of a Rabbi doing something weird (plus would this story EVER air in the US?) ”
It absolutely would, and does, in Jewish newspapers like the Jewish Week and the Forward, and in local newspapers like the New York Times. All of these publications have done stories over the years that reflect extremely negatively on certain ultra-orthodox communities and some of its more arcane practices, from the practice of kaparot on Yom Kippur to the infighting the Satmar community.
The negativity is not the point. The point is that here, the story is not being posted for news value. It’s being posted because the bloggers take perverse pleasure in stories like this, and they frankly need to ask themselves why.
how we treat those percived to less than us tell us a lot about a person.
I tried to get my dog stoned once when I was a teenager. I did blowbacks towards it while it was in its dog bed but it ran away and I burned my mouth :(
Hilarious! This is the best post I’ve read all day.
I think it’s a question of balance–if a person only read Mondoweiss you’d have a point, but ugly religion-driven behavior in Saudi Arabia is common knowledge in the US and I don’t think the same is true of Israel. This particular case is trivial, but it was news to me–I didn’t realize that some of the ultra-Orthodox were this crazy.
“This particular case is trivial”
As a dog-lover I don’t actually think it is trivial, but when compared to the massive human rights violations going on I thought I’d better keep a sense of perspective.
There is nothing trivial at all about teaching children to kill animals.
I agree, and it seems clear from the rest of the article (which Adam didn’t post) that that is not what happened here.
Hophmi, are you ready to substantiate the charges you made against me? If not, why don’t don’t you slither back into the hole excresences like you ooze from?
You are a coward and a punk.
Much more common? Maybe because there are more members of other faiths. It is true that you can find hardcore crazyheads everywhere. I visited the Harry Potter world at Universal in Florida and there were protesters with shirts saying that Harry Potter was satanic. They were inside of the park. I know a few of them were escorted out by security when they became violent (after spitting on somebody if I recall). The shirts had bible verses on them so it was certainly motivated by a faith.
Posting about this sort of behavior is relevant because the ultra orthodox represent a hurdle toward Palestinian statehood and peace in general. They make up around 25% of the illegal settlements in the West Bank, including ‘outposts’ which are illegal even under Israeli law. When the Israeli government does send in the IDF to dismantle an outpost, they are attacked upon by the ultra orthodox settlers although the IDF wear their kid gloves when dealing with them (compared to dealing with Palestinians).
Previous administration have claimed (during peace negotiations) that it would take decades to remove some of the settlements because they are ultra orthodox. They are different from Zionists. Ultra orthodox settlers in the holy land predate the arrival of Zionist colonists. They differ from the Zionist nationalist ideology of a Jewish state and claim that the land belongs to them no matter what. The problem is comparable to what we see when they continuously break into Joseph’s tomb. If the Palestinian’s hypothetically have a future state in the area of the West Bank they are always going to have problems with the ultra orthodox.
The ultra orthodox view everything very differently. They do no have a problem killing Jews who get in their way either.
>> This is in the category of let’s see how we can embarrass Judaism today.
Judaism appears to be embarrassing itself. BTW, did you post a similar condemnation on Ynet, the source of this embarrassing-to-Judaism story? Just curious.
“Judaism appears to be embarrassing itself. BTW, did you post a similar condemnation on Ynet, the source of this embarrassing-to-Judaism story? Just curious.”
Thanks for understanding that this is about embarrassing Judaism, not Israel.
Hophmi you are unaware of this, but you really prove your opponents points with your knee jerk Hasbara points. This example is good.
1. you complain that Horowitz brings up what seems like a trivial point that involves some crazed orthodox rabbi in Israel who placed a spell on a lawyer who sentenced a secular opponent in his after-life to be a dog. In a normal world this is so crazy that no rational observer would hold that against the Zionist.
2.Yet it is an issue because Israeli propaganda have been using statements by crazed Islamic Imams to justify their existence because they are the only rational forces in the neighborhood. Do you get it yet? You invited the discussion. It is the old story: those who live in glass houses should not engage in rock fights.
3. So how does Hophmi deal with this dilemma? Why he finishes with an attack on Islamic Imams because of their crazed rulings.
Do you poor neurologically challenged Hophmi, recognize the self reinforced cycle you are engaged in? Surely not, otherwise you would not have gotten into it in the first place. If you want to learn more about your dilemma, look up positive feed back loops. Don’t be mislead “positive” usually does NOT result in a positive outcome, somewhat paradoxically, if you want a positive outcome, you should be involved in a “negative feed back loop”. Pardon me, I am just showing off, this is way over your head.
“2.Yet it is an issue because Israeli propaganda have been using statements by crazed Islamic Imams to justify their existence because they are the only rational forces in the neighborhood. Do you get it yet? You invited the discussion. It is the old story: those who live in glass houses should not engage in rock fights.”
If you are not smart enough to understand the difference between some rabbi in a rabbinical court telling some kid to shoo a dog away and Islamic leaders such as Sheikh Nasrallah, Ayatollah Khomenei, and the many Imams who appear on state television and compare Jews to pigs and monkeys, there’s not much I can do for you.
hophmi: Please provide links to substantiate your statement,
hophmi – how can he be distorting the article if he has simply cut and pasted it from ynet and not added any comments of his own.? hophmi – I think you owe us an explanation for the lie you are propagating.
Because nowhere did he mention that there was no actual ruling and that the rabbis told the children to drive the dog away, not kill it.
That only goes to show that you do not understand the concept of Orientalism and its manifestations.
I understand it well. I think maybe you don’t.
“That only goes to show that you do not understand the concept of Orientalism and its manifestations.”
Yes, it would seem that we hopelessly benighted pedestrians struggle hard to understand these concepts and their “manifestations.”
Why not explain it to us Avi, and maybe tell hophmi all about how the most sinister Orientalist of them all, Bernard Lewis, is a “racist Islamophobe” just as you (sort of) explained it to me in our previous exchange?
Here is my answer to your question.
“Again Adam, I’m mystified by your penchant for posting stories like this”
Oy, Oy, Oy! They kidnap you, force you to read Mondoweiss, and now Phil and Adam are posting completely phony articles. It never happened!
“This is in the category of let’s see how we can embarrass Judaism today.”
Judaism? Hophmi, you lying punkl, what does this have to do with Judaism? In the rest of the world, Judaism, a religion, submits to local animal-cruelty laws. What this has to do with is Israel, which uses Judaism as an outlet for all of its sickness. Which is exactly what has always happened when religions are allowed temporal power. This has nothing to do with Judaism.
You know Hophmi, I may not be such a great person, but at least I don’t blame my psychosis on being Jewish. I may not be very religious, but I don’t hate Judaism as much as Zionists do.
“Judaism? Hophmi, you lying punkl, what does this have to do with Judaism?”
Nothing whatsoever. So what it is doing here?
“In the rest of the world, Judaism, a religion, submits to local animal-cruelty laws.”
Indeed they do, and they do in Israel too. So again I ask: what is this story doing here?
“What this has to do with is Israel, which uses Judaism as an outlet for all of its sickness.”
Eh? How so? What does some rabbi telling a kid to chase a dog away with stones have to do with Israel? I can tell you about people in Brooklyn who kill their cats and dogs and starve them to death. Does that have anything to do with New York and America?
“Which is exactly what has always happened when religions are allowed temporal power. This has nothing to do with Judaism.”
Exactly my point. So why are people like Thomson Rutherford saying that they’re holding this story for the next time the NY Times says something negative about the Southern Baptist community? What’s the story doing here?
“You know Hophmi, I may not be such a great person, but at least I don’t blame my psychosis on being Jewish. ”
There’s nothing Jewish about psychosis. You can be crazy in any faith.
Here is an operation that was not so successful, and one to which everyone–Orthodox or not–is subject to.
Hophmi whines:
“This is in the category of let’s see how we can embarrass Judaism today.”
Yea, because the people ‘embarrassing Judaism’ are the ones blogging about an article that they did not report (YNet did) – AND NOT the crazy religious people who actually carried out the act.
Great logic there.
But then again, you don’t care about Jews, Judaism, etc. – in and of themselves.
You only care insofar as they may represent a Zionist context.
“Yea, because the people ‘embarrassing Judaism’ are the ones blogging about an article that they did not report (YNet did) – AND NOT the crazy religious people who actually carried out the act.”
Spare me. It’s clear what’s going on here. This article has nothing to do with Israel and nothing to do with animals. There are ultra-orthodox Jews in America and elsewhere. This is about Judaism, and about posting an article (or posting part of an article) that is meant to make ultra-orthodox rabbis look embarrassing. If this were about dogs, Adam would post an article about China, where they EAT DOGS.
It is obvious except to narrow-minded haters like yourself.
Exactly as I said above!
More of the cliche’d Zionist debating tactics: i.e., ‘the world sucks’.
And how often do Orthodox Jews crazy it up in America?
The fundamentalism, which is what this article is about, arises in Israel precisely because of how it institutionalizes Judaism.
It’s no wonder this kind of thing might happen and it’s not isolated to Judaism.
All you do is ‘point-score’ or WHINE incessantly.
Just like in the other thread, where yet ANOTHER pro-Israel-type was appointed to random-but-important-American-political-position.
Your inanely idiotic response was to sarcastically ask why wouldn’t the President/’government’ put someone in said position that lobbyists approved of.
I’ve said this time and time again, but you’re a gift to this blog. Your abject stupidity helps prove the overall point about Zionist debating tactics – intellectual dishonesty.
If you want to talk about China, go to a fricken’ CHINA BLOG, you putz.
And if the President/Government/etc. appoints a pro-Israel-type to an important position, within the context of Israel-Palestine – it PROVES the influence of the lobby and how Zionist money strangles ‘the debate’.
There is no balance, etc. etc. etc.
You’re not refuting anything. You’re desperate and pathetic, which is astounding considering how weak the Palestinians are. They are the ones losing everything, and yet here you are – indignant as ever – crying your heart out! Loser.
When can we expect “stray cats liable to death by stoning in Iran, according to sharia law”?
Hey, will the Humane Society, the ASPCA, PETA and like-minded groups, at the risk of being accused of Guess What, speak up on behalf of that unfortunate pooch?
Was it a Palestinian dog, I wonder?
I’m pleased to see that one of the many western liberal values Israel shares with the USA [or is it the other way around?] is a humanitarian concern for dumb animalsanda desire to manage the population of unwanted strays.
Mohammed and Islam took a lot from Judaism. Is their contempt for dogs one of the things that comes from that source?
Islam does not have “contempt” for dogs. Muslims simply consider dogs, as they do most other animals, to be unclean. They will keep them — as pets or guard dogs, or hunting dogs — but they won’t bring them inside the home. By contrast, cats are considered clean because they constantly groom themselves (Even if you never owned a cat, you must have seen a cat licking its fur clean).
More importantly, traditionally cats have been accepted into the confines of many a Muslim’s clean home because — as the story goes — one day, a cat came and rested next to where the prophet Muhammad was sitting. When he didn’t shoo it away, it was viewed as a sign of approval. One can think of it as a kind of blessing. Or, if one prefers, one can think of it as a type of dogma or doctrine similar to the approval a Kashrut inspector would give to Kosher food; i.e. it’s OK because religious doctrine says it is.
Nonetheless, there is often overlap between religious practices/laws and health/moral issues. For example, not to get overly graphic, but draining an animal of its blood is far safer for human consumption as it removes many of the pathogens that may be present in the blood. That way, it’s not merely a question of whether the food is Kosher or not, but whether it’s healthy or not.
The same rationale applies to the treatment of cats, on the one hand they do groom themselves, on the other hand, religious tradition states that they are clean. That’s the overlap.
And many times there is overlap between religious and practical applications.
“Shared values” at work.
…Uh, yeah. This article pretty much speaks for itself. I’m moving on.
It is not trivial in that there is a direct correlation between how a society treats their women and how they treat their pets. The Orthodox Jews make their women ride in the back of the bus and the man must consent to a divorce are two examples. The fundamentalist Muslim is no better in either case.
What I find interesting is how superstitious they are, thinking a cursed human has returned to haunt them in the form of a dog. I understand the Israeli government pays these voodoo practitioners, and because the US subsidizes Israel, I think it’s important for Americans to know where their money goes. Too much of what happens in Israel is hidden from the American public and it is a good thing when it is exposed, no matter how insignificant it may seem. And, if the truth be told, Americans love their dogs more than they love Muslims. My point of view is dogs are more loyal than Israel.
AN OLD “LAWYER JOKE” THAT I JUST NOW MADE UP -
Q: How can you tell a lawyer from a dog?
A: You can’t!
Isn’t that a real knee-slapper?!?!
speaking as a dog who attended law school, i find this joke insulting.
“You mean that dog has a Law license? That’s incredible!”
“What’s so incredible about it? He’s lost most of his cases!”
I want to file this one away so I can pull it out and wave it in the air the next time the New York Times (or Jon Stewart) runs a piece ridiculing the archaic beliefs and customs of Southern Baptists in Texas.
Right, and see, that’s the point here, to post an article that ridicules Jewish practices, even if these practices are not widespread, mainstream, or even corroborated.
But as long as Judaism is in some way ridiculed, it’s grist for the mill around here.
“Right, and see, that’s the point here, to post an article that ridicules Jewish practices”
Don’t worry, your complaint will be forwarded to Y-net today. That’s who posted the article.
Look, why don’t we cut to the chase, and simply say that you think it’s your God-given right to demand that anything you don’t like about Israel or Jews be suppressed?
I think it’s a fascinating story. Reminds me of the opening scene of the Cohen Brothers’ great movie, “A Serious Man.” In a long ago shtetl a husband brings an elderly man into the house because the man has done him a favor. The wife thinks he’s a dybbuk and stabs him to prove it. The man gets up bleeding from the chest and staggers out of the house.
It’s not clear whether the man is a dybbuk or not. But either way the couple is cursed: either he was a dybukk, a malicious spirit, invited into the house or he was truly a righteous man, an invited guest, attacked by the wife.
The Israeli ultra-Orthodox are still way ahead of the United States in their ability to identify the villain. I’ll put real money on the statement that a higher majority of Americans confused Saddam Hussein with Ossama Bin-Laden than Israeli Ultra-Orthodox Jews who believed that poor dog was he reincarnation of their secular nemesis. So, who’s guilty of dangerous voodoo, then?
And again, we killed lots of Iraqis in the name of that belief but the dog, per the article, is alive and well (Adam, you really should fix your misrepresentation of the Ynet article for all the folks who read your post but did not see the correction in the comments).
Elliot,
I’m a bit confused. If memory serves, I thought you said you were Israeli.
Avi -
Your confusion is understandable. I am American but am a former Israeli.
Elliot,
Both are guilty of dangerous voodoo premised on myth-based propaganda. One does not cancel the other. The myths are, respectively, the premise that God is a male (anthropomorphism) and the idea of American exceptionalism (nationalism.) Both concepts have hit the wall. Someday we will have to begin cleaning up the debris.
Anybody else ever notice that Zionists (like, say, oh, Hophmi, for instance) are always ready to invoke, or even demand the compassion, tolerance, and understanding for themselves and Israel that they deny to others?
(Okay, that’s pretty bad, but then Witty tries to turn that same Zionist intolerance, misunderstanding, and lack of compassion into a reason we should be ever more tolerant, understanding, and compassionate towards Zionists! That one really rankles.)
Hophmi.
Stop saying that Judaism has been ridiculed, it is the ultra orthodox fundamentalist minority that are being ridiculed, and they deserve it in this case.
I don’t just ridicule such superstitions but condemn them because the belief in bodily possession by evil spirits, witchcraft and such can, and does, lead to atrocities. I don’t ridicule religious practices which harm no one or animal–I extend my condemnation to animal sacrafice. But in art and some media it is acceptable to ridicule Christian and Muslim religions but not Judaism. If Judaism is ridiculed I haven’t seen it. On the other hand, I don’t condemn religions for old atrocities, when superstition reigned and science was either unknown or in its infancy. I do believe in the evolution of consciousness and we are only responsible for the world today, learning from the past and planning for the future.
The humane thing to do with a stray dog is rescue it. I’ve rescued many, two little cuties last week. They spent the night in my bed and reunited with their greatly relieved owners the next day.
FWIW,
Lay off Adam, this article made it to Time link to newsfeed.time.com, Google link to google.com, AFP, and Gather.com.