Senate fight today over the number of Palestinian refugees

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1. Annie Robbins says:

   May 24, 2012 at 12:39 pm

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   Thirty U.S. senators will vote today over whether there really are 5 million Palestinian “refugees” or just around 30,000

   like some guy from tennessee defines who’s a refugees. if this isn’t gross what is? our senate is meaningless sitting around all day pretending they are the knesset.

   i am so over this
2. eljay says:

   May 24, 2012 at 1:17 pm

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   >> From “Eliminating 4,970,000 Palestinian refugees: Status Update”:
   >> The bill, slated for markup on May 22, would challenge the status of the children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of Palestinian refugees — a great many of whom claim to be refugees despite the fact that they were never personally displaced in the 1948 and 1967 Arab-Israeli wars.

   The bill should also challenge the status of Jews who claim a right to “return” to a place from which either they nor their parents nor grandparents nor great-grandparents, etc., came from or have ever lived.

   >> As Kirk’s office explains, Congress will soon need to consider tough questions, like whether U.S. taxpayers should be footing the bill for welfare programs in the West Bank and Gaza …

   Perhaps Congress should consider tougher questions, like whether U.S. taxpayers should be footing the bill for an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist Jewish State.
   • Fredblogs says:

     May 24, 2012 at 2:42 pm

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     The law of return (not a right of return) is a law granting favorable immigration status. It is granted by the national laws of one country. Israel could just as easily change the law to not grant the right of return. Whether the Palestinian descendants are refugees has nothing to do with the law of return.
     • eljay says:

       May 24, 2012 at 6:06 pm

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       >> The law of return … is a law granting favorable immigration status. It is granted by the national laws of one country.

       Right. And since the country is Israel, the law should apply to all Israelis and their descendants, equally.

       >> Whether the Palestinian descendants are refugees has nothing to do with the law of return.

       The law of return has as its premise a right of “return” to the “Land of Israel” (LoI) for Jews who are descended from the refugees who were exiled from the LoI.
       - Categorize all Palestinians and their descendants as refugees from their lands since 1948.
       - Categorize all ancient Jews and their descendants as refugees from the LoI.
       - To both groups, apply the same criteria (# of generations removed from the land, etc.) for determining what constitutes a refugee.
       - Those who qualify as a refugee are entitled to return; those who do not qualify as a refugee are not entitled to return.
       • Fredblogs says:

         May 24, 2012 at 9:19 pm

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         No, since Israel is a sovereign country it should apply to whoever they want it to apply to. If they want a law of return that applies to red-headed, left-handed bald midgets with dandruff, they have the sovereign right to make such a law. As I said, it has nothing to do with refugee status of the Jews, or the Palestinians. I don’t consider myself a refugee and I can only move to Israel with the permission of the Israeli government. Fortunately for me they are gracious enough that they extend that privilege (not a right) to me. The issues of refugee status and law of return are completely separate.
       • Talkback says:

         May 25, 2012 at 5:07 am

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         Fredblogs: “No, since Israel is a sovereign country it should apply to whoever they want it to apply to.”

         Universal moralist Fredblogs’ lessons for today:
         Nazi Germay murdered or expelled its Jewish citizens and didn’t let them return. Because it was a a souvereign country it should have done whatever it wanted to do.
       • playforpalestine says:

         May 25, 2012 at 7:45 am

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         “Right. And since the country is Israel, the law should apply to all Israelis and their descendants, equally.”

         Why? That makes no sense, there are no Israeli refugees. Some of the Jews it allowed to emigrate were refugees from other countries. But the term “Right of Return” references an end to the ancient Jewish diaspora.

         “- Categorize all Palestinians and their descendants as refugees from their lands since 1948.
         - Categorize all ancient Jews and their descendants as refugees from the LoI.”

         You’re funny. Why would Israel want to rejigger their return law so as to neuter its key national objective while simultaneously fulfilling the goals of the Palestinians, (ie: the people Israel has essentially been at war with for the past 80 years.)

         Not to mention, most Palestinians aren’t even actually refugees from the land Israel now sits on. Why would ALL Palestinians be granted this status anyway?

         “And since the country is Israel, the law should apply to all Israelis and their descendants, equally.”

         It’s not really Israel though, it’s Palestine. A lot of these people were never refugees to begin with, they were internally displaced. At any rate, in East Jerusalem, where Palestinian residents are allowed to apply for citizenship, fewer than 5% chose to do so.
       • eljay says:

         May 25, 2012 at 9:04 am

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         >> No, since Israel is a sovereign country it should apply to whoever they want it to apply to. If they want a law of return that applies to red-headed, left-handed bald midgets with dandruff, they have the sovereign right to make such a law.

         And it would be as unjust as Israel’s current supremacist and discriminatory law of “return”. The only difference is that a hypocrite like you would be complaining that it now discriminated against you. :-(
       • talknic says:

         May 25, 2012 at 11:44 am

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         playforpalestine

         Uh huh… Problem… East Jerusalem isn’t in Israel. Try UNSC res 476
       • Fredblogs says:

         May 25, 2012 at 1:36 pm

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         @eljay
         Not at all. Countries have the right to invite or not invite people based on whatever criterion they choose.

         @talkback
         That’s a strawman argument. The right to decide who you let in is not a right to mass murder your own citizens.
       • eljay says:

         May 25, 2012 at 1:44 pm

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         >> Why would Israel want to rejigger their return law so as to neuter its key national objective …

         Exactly. Israel did not and does not have any interest in being a secular, democratic and egalitarian state of and for all Israelis, equally. It is interested only in being a religion-supremacist state for Jews.
3. Fredblogs says:

   May 24, 2012 at 2:38 pm

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   Actually, are there any other people in the world where the descendants of refugees are considered refugees? IOW, are they trying to make the definition for the Palestinians the same as for everyone else, or different from everyone else?
   • Talkback says:

     May 25, 2012 at 5:14 am

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     Fredblogs: “Actually, are there any other people in the world where the descendants of refugees are considered refugees? IOW, are they trying to make the definition for the Palestinians the same as for everyone else, or different from everyone else?”

     You really have become an antizionist, don’t you Fredblogs? Zionism considers Jews to be descendants of ancient refugees and therefore have the right to “return” to their “historic” homeland. Are they trying to make the definition for Jews the same as for everyone else, or different from everyone else, especially from Palestinians?
   • Woody Tanaka says:

     May 25, 2012 at 9:52 am

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     “Actually, are there any other people in the world where the descendants of refugees are considered refugees?”

     Are there any states so evil as Israel to have perpetuated the crime creating the refugees and refused to permit them their right of return for so long as to create another generation of refugees?
     • playforpalestine says:

       May 25, 2012 at 10:42 am

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       Sure. The big difference is that nowhere else are there states so morally bankrupt as the Arab states who refuse to allow any Palestinian refugees to become citizens of any of their states (except for Jordan, which later reneged anyway).

       Not only that but they created a separate UN organization dedicated JUST to the Palestinians. So instead of focusing on the best interests of the Palestinian people like the normal UN refugee org would do, the UNRWA concerns itself primarily with politics. For example, it has refuse on many occasions prevented states like Israel from building modern brick structures in Gaza refugee camps to replace the horrible accommodations that existed with the rationale that it would give the refugees a sense of permanence when they should be focused on their goal of one day returning to their homes in Israel. (Despite the fact that those homes are long gone and there is no chance of them ever going back there.)
       • Woody Tanaka says:

         May 25, 2012 at 11:25 am

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         Why shoudl they become citizens of another state? Their not Jordanians or Lebonese or Syrians. They’re Palestinians. When the cancer of zionism is cut out or its metastasization into the West Bank staunched, they should return to Palestine. Why should anyone aid the criminal zionists in their crimes?
       • Talkback says:

         May 25, 2012 at 12:19 pm

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         playforpalestine: “The big difference is that nowhere else are there states so morally bankrupt as the Arab states who refuse to allow any Palestinian refugees to become citizens of any of their states …”

         Then imagine how morally bankrupt Israel is which made them refugees and denationalized them.

         “Not only that but they created a separate UN organization dedicated JUST to the Palestinians.”

         UNRWA was created for Arab AND Jewish Palestinian refugees.
       • talknic says:

         May 25, 2012 at 12:23 pm

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         playforpalestine May 25, 2012 at 10:42 am

         “The big difference is that nowhere else are there states so morally bankrupt as the Arab states who refuse to allow any Palestinian refugees to become citizens of any of their states”

         Palestinian refugees don’t want to become citizens of the Arab States. They’d rather maintain their RoR. Nor do the Arab States have any obligation to offer refugees citizenship if they don’t want it.

         ” (except for Jordan, which later reneged anyway)”

         Jordan offered limited citizenship to Palestinians when it was the Occupying Power over the West Bank in AGREEMENT with Israel under the 1949 Armistice AGREEMENT and; Jordan offered specifically limited citizenship to Palestine refugees in Jordanian refugee camps, without infringing on their RoR

         Israel is now the Occupying Power of the West Bank under the Israeli / Jordan Peace Treaty.

         “Not only that but they created a separate UN organization dedicated JUST to the Palestinians. “

         In fact it was for all refugees from Palestine. People can check. Pity you don’t. It doesn’t say “Palestinian” anywhere.

         “UNRWA concerns itself primarily with politics”

         Politics and final status are not within its mandate.

         “For example, it has refuse on many occasions prevented states like Israel from building modern brick structures in Gaza refugee camps”

         Quote the official offer … You’ll find it involved swapping Palestinian land for Palestinian land with the Palestinians, in order that Israel could get prime Palestinian land for illegal Israeli settlers.
       • playforpalestine says:

         May 30, 2012 at 4:24 am

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         “Then imagine how morally bankrupt Israel is which made them refugees and denationalized them.”

         Israel didn’t denationalize them. Read the UNRWA requirements. They refer to Palestine refugees. The fact that Palestine never came into existence is not Israel’s fault. According to Hostage, the Palestinians willingly joined forces with Jordan instead, making most of them Jordanian. Then it was Jordan who denationalized them in 1988.

         “UNRWA was created for Arab AND Jewish Palestinian refugees.”

         REALLY? So how much of their resources have gone to help Jewish refugees?
       • Talkback says:

         May 30, 2012 at 8:13 am

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         “Israel didn’t denationalize them. Read the UNRWA requirements.”

         Israel didn’t make them Israelis allthough required by international and human right law and resolution 181 chapter 3.1.

         “The fact that Palestine never came into existence is not Israel’s fault.”

         Jewish terrorism pre 1948 and Jewish occupation post 1967 prevented/prevents a Palestinian state.

         “So how much of their resources have gone to help Jewish refugees?”

         They became Israelis and lost refugee status.
       • playforpalestine says:

         May 30, 2012 at 10:52 am

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         “Israel didn’t make them Israelis allthough required by international and human right law and resolution 181 chapter 3.1.”

         What international law is that? And res 181 never went into effect on any count.

         “Jewish terrorism pre 1948 and Jewish occupation post 1967 prevented/prevents a Palestinian state.”

         Really? Well, Israel seemed able to accomplish it despite terrorism, international boycotts, trade embargoes, 2 back to back wars, an occupation, a ban on Jewish immigration and property sales to Jews, the Holocaust, and so on. Israel lost a full 1% of its entire population during their war of independence. Yet they managed to build a state.

         BTW, what was preventing the state from getting built during those 19 years between the 1948 war and the 1967 one?

         “They became Israelis and lost refugee status.”

         Yet somehow none of the Palestinians who gained Jordanian citizenship lost their refugee status.
       • playforpalestine says:

         May 31, 2012 at 2:52 am

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         “UNRWA was created for Arab AND Jewish Palestinian refugees.”

         No.

         Among the 21,555 persons of Palestinian citizenship properly speaking who are neither Jews or Arabs, there must be some Moslems and some Christians of various origins (Turkish, Greek, Armenian, etc.) of whom 7,902 are natives of Palestine. These persons, who at the time of the census were placed in the general category of “Others”, cannot be considered as refugees even if they left Palestinian territory after 29 November 1947. They should be covered by the provisions laid down on that date by the General Assembly concerning religious and minority rights in Israel. Moreover, the Arab States could not be required to accept in their territories refugees not of Arab origin.

         link to unispal.un.org
     • Fredblogs says:

       May 25, 2012 at 1:37 pm

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       There were millions of refugees after WWII. Many of them never allowed to return home. Guess what, their descendants aren’t considered refugees.
   • talknic says:

     May 25, 2012 at 12:30 pm

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     Fredblogs May 24, 2012 at 2:38 pm

     “Actually, are there any other people in the world where the descendants of refugees are considered refugees?”

     Yes. German legislation grants RoR for Jewish folk and their lineal descendants, which is beyond the requirement.

     Yes. All lineal descendants of refugees who’re in a refugee camp are considered to be refugees.
     • Fredblogs says:

       May 25, 2012 at 1:39 pm

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       Sorry, talknic, but one country happening to allow preferred immigration status doesn’t make the Jews refugees. Show me any U.N. or other document that considers present descendants of Jewish Holocaust refugees to be refugees themselves.

       Also, if you mean that post about UNHCR 184, that said “dependents”, not “descendants”.
4. Taxi says:

   May 24, 2012 at 9:48 pm

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   We all know that to be Palestinian is to be part of a global affluent elite – explains why so many millions of people are now Palestinian imposters eh!

   And while congress are at it, would they mind awfully if they reclassified and recounted the victims of Darfur, Rowanda, the holocaust etc.
   • Fredblogs says:

     May 25, 2012 at 5:46 pm

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     Since no checking is done, and the UNRWA refugee status pays what in most of the third world Middle Eastern countries is a pretty good living, there probably are a lot of impostors.

     Also, not funny about the Darfur, Rwanda and Holocaust victims.