To understand the history of Palestinian dispossession look to the words of Zionist and Israeli leaders

ActivismIsrael/Palestine
on 137 Comments

Henry Clifford, the 83-year-old Connecticut man who funded a billboard a New York MTA train line illustrating Israel’s expanding control over historic Palestine, responded to his critics in a letter to the lower Hudson Valley Journal News:

As the sponsor of the ads displayed at Metro-North Railroad stations, allow me to respond to the article by Scott Richman and Larry Grossman of the American Jewish Committee/Westchester.

It would require volumes to recount the history of Palestine, the Jewish settlement there and the creation of the State of Israel, so I will focus only on the subject matter illustrated by the maps referenced in my ads — using, not my words, but those of Zionist and Israeli leaders.

Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, wrote: “We shall have to spirit the penniless population (the Arabs) across the border … while denying it any employment in our own country.”

Chaim Weizmann, the first president of Israel, said: “Palestine is to become as Jewish as England is English.”

David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, wrote: “I favor partition because when we become a strong power we will abolish partition and spread throughout Palestine.”

He also said: “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … we are the aggressors and they defend themselves”; and wrote this: “If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural, we have taken their country.”

Also, in a letter to his son: “We will expel the Arabs and take their place.”

Moshe Sharett, Israel’s first foreign minister and second prime minister, is quoted in “Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict” as saying: “We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it.”

Moshe Dayan, Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff and later defense minister, was a straight talker: “There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”

Richman and Grossman tell us that in 1967, “the Arab world threatened Israel with destruction.” Here’s what then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin said in 1982: “In June 1967, we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentration in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

The Arabs did not initiate the war, Israel did.

About Adam Horowitz

Adam Horowitz is Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

Other posts by .


Posted In:

137 Responses

  1. frankier
    July 31, 2012, 2:21 pm

    The quotes included in his letter are very powerful. Without doubting their authenticity, is there a place or does anyone know of a place where there is a reference to the actual documents containing the quotes? Thanks!

    • sky7i
      July 31, 2012, 6:27 pm

      References for some of the quotes can be found here: http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm

    • Edward Q
      July 31, 2012, 7:42 pm

      Try the excellent “Facts and Fables” by Clifford Wright.

    • ToivoS
      July 31, 2012, 7:45 pm

      If you find these quotes surprising you should read either Ilan Pappe’s or Benny Morris’s books on the founding of Israel. Ilan writes from a point of view sympathetic to the Palestinians while Benny is died in the wool Zionist.

    • Brewer
      July 31, 2012, 10:08 pm

      Chaim Weizmann hailed the Arab evacuation as “a miraculous clearing of the land: the miraculous simplification of Israel’s task.”
      For Masalha it was “less of a miracle than it was of over half a century of effort, plans, and (in the end) brute force.”
      Review of Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of “Transfer” in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948, by Nur Masalha. 235 pp., Institute for Palestine Studies, 1992.
      http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/It%20Can%20Be%20Done.html

      Weizmann:
      “Palestine is to become as Jewish as England is English.”
      Winston Churchill:
      “Phrases have been used such as that Palestine is to become “as Jewish as England is English.” His Majesty’s Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view.”
      http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1922.asp

      My favourite which, if there were any fairness, should stop almost any argument:

      “Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat… First and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play..”
      – Yitzhak Shamir.

    • thankgodimatheist
      August 3, 2012, 9:22 pm

      The most comprehensive source for quotes is here: Palestine Remembered
      http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story637.html

  2. GJB
    July 31, 2012, 2:50 pm

    Speaking of quotes, here is one from Vladimir Jabotinsky, father of Revisionist Zionism: “The Arabs loved their country as much as the Jews did. Instinctively,
    they understood Zionist aspirations very well, and their decision to resist them
    was only natural ….. There was no misunderstanding between Jew and Arab, but
    a natural conflict. …. No Agreement was possible with the Palestinian Arab;
    they would accept Zionism only when they found themselves up against an ‘iron wall,’ when they realize they had no alternative but to accept Jewish settlement.”

    I saw somewhere an account of a speech that Moshe Dayan gave, back in the ’50’s, at a funeral of an Israeli killed in a terrorist attack. I wish I could find the source. But his speech was described as starting out sounding like an eloquent defense of the right of Palestinians to resist. He talked of how they lost land and homes, and spoke poignantly of what it must be like to look across a border at your home, but not be allowed to go back to it. But then he went on to say basically what Jabotinsky said – some version of, “They may have a right to fight us but we have to win.”

    As I frequently point out in arguments about the history of the I/P situation, such quotes prove that the facts are not really in dispute. No serious historian believes that the Zionists just settled on empty land, or even that the Palestinians didn’t have valid reasons to resist. The dispute is all about values. Benny Morris was one of the first Israeli mainstream historians to expose the ethnic cleansing of Palestine (Palestinian historians, of course, were saying this from the beginning). But Morris then concludes by saying basically the same thing as Ben Gurion, Jabotinsky, Dayan and the others – “Yeah, we did it, but it was necessary and we had to win.”

    It is both necessary to be educated about the facts, as well as to look at with what system of values we view them. Thankfully, we have the Henry Cliffords, the Phil Weiss’s and the Adam Horowitz’s of the world around to remind us of both.

    • Scott
      July 31, 2012, 5:40 pm

      The Dayan quote (quite eloquent actually) is found in Avi Shlaim’s The Iron Wall.

      • GJB
        August 1, 2012, 12:06 am

        Thanks for the reference. It helped me find part of Dayan’s quote from The Iron Wall on Wikiquotes:

        “Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.
        We should demand his blood not from the Arabs of Gaza but from ourselves. . . . Let us make our reckoning today. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . . Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who sit all around us and wait for the moment when their hands will be able to reach our blood.”

      • seafoid
        August 1, 2012, 10:28 am

        “Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who sit all around us and wait for the moment when their hands will be able to reach our blood”

        They are worse than afraid now. They are paranoid. Living by the sword exacts a very steep psychological price from a society.

    • Blake
      August 1, 2012, 12:37 am

      Unless they have no conscience in lying for a million dollar payola * ahem * Newt Gingrich * ahem *.

  3. tombishop
    July 31, 2012, 2:53 pm

    These statements by Zionist leaders remind me so much of the Europeans justification for the genocide of Native Americans. There was an article in Newsweek, republished on Daily Beast, last fall which gives me hope that there will be another way in Palestine before it is too late.

    Moshe Dayan’s Widow Ruth: Zionist Dream Has Run Its Course
    These startling words were uttered last week in Tel Aviv by 95-year-old Ruth Dayan, widow of one of Israel’s founding fathers

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/10/30/moshe-dayan-s-widow-ruth-zionist-dream-has-run-its-course.html

  4. tear-stained uzi
    July 31, 2012, 3:12 pm

    Henry Clifford is a mensch.

  5. Scott
    July 31, 2012, 3:14 pm

    He’s great. When it’s time to run new ads to counter the counterads, he can use these quotes. And an billboard debate–which seems to exist now despite the efforts of, etc. — has got be a net win.

  6. Mndwss
    July 31, 2012, 3:16 pm

    I must go now and save the world
    Move aside mere drop of water, let the ocean pass

    Message to Anti-Semites:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q0t1oqJD3No

    “Someone from the jewish special forces will take you out…..”

    Prettiest Cop on the Block:

    I’m six foot three with a fist like a hammer
    And I work with the Vice Squad when I can
    And when I pull out my badge they forget all my glamor
    Little guys all surprised
    Take a seat, eat your meat
    It’s a bust, I’m a man

    I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    I set your souls on fire
    Yes, I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    I’m cool and I’m so mean
    Oh, I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    I’ve handcuffed your desire
    I’ve got a stiff reputation with a stick like a rock
    My kids are confused and my wife is a shock

    I’m a full blooded man not a weak imitation
    I like to flex my arms in the neon lights
    I’m a queen at the street and a king at the station
    It’s a secret of mine, not a sign I’m gonna make that right
    Cause I’m..

    I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    I set your souls on fire……..

    Yes, I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    Cool and I’m so mean
    Oh, I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    I’ve handcuffed your desire
    I’ve got a stiff reputation with a stick like a rock
    My kids are confused and my wife is a shock

    I must look pretty shocking
    In my bullet proof vest
    With my black lace stockings
    All this hair on my chest
    When the boys see me coming
    All the boys start to run
    They all got their great big holsters
    And I got the only gun
    Because..

    I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    I set your souls on fire
    Yes, I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    Cool and I’m so mean
    Oh, I’m the prettiest cop on the block
    I’ve handcuffed your desire
    I’ve got a stiff reputation with a stick like a rock
    My kids are confused and my wife is a shock

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpLauNdIVOs&feature=relmfu

    Yahoo the Movie:

    I fearlessly let Americans walk into battle:

    I fearlessly walk into battle
    With a shine on my boots and my teeth
    Never flinch, never blink, never rattle
    My blood is like ice underneath
    Oh, I’m the reincarnation of Patton
    And I’ve got Hannibal’s heart in my chest
    God told me I would have rivalled
    Alexander the Great at his best

    (You’re a movie)
    Quite
    (You’re a movie)
    Yes
    (The exception)
    That’s right
    (You’re the final kind)
    (You’re a movie)
    More of an epic
    (Please include me, send us to the line)
    Mm, that’s right
    Very good

    Bullets repel off my medals
    And my men are in awe when I speak
    All chaos my strategy settles
    My mere presence gives strength to the weak
    For me it seems really alarming
    I’m really just only a man
    With five million sheep in this army
    I seem to be the only one fit to command

    (You’re a movie)
    I’m quite aware
    (You’re a movie)
    Yeah
    (The exception)
    Oh, you’ve noticed
    (You’re the final kind)
    (You’re a movie)
    Hey, very true
    (Please include me, send us to the line)
    Mm, if you’re lucky
    I must go now and save the world
    Move aside mere drop of water, let the ocean pass

    (You’re a movie)
    Quite right
    (You’re a movie)
    (The exception)
    (You’re the final kind)
    (You’re a movie)
    (Please include me)
    Mm hmm
    (Please include me)
    (Please include me)
    Possibly
    (Send us to the lines)
    Good man
    (Send us to the lines)
    I’ll be at the front, please
    (Front of the lines)
    Oh, alright
    Follow me

    Another day, another victory
    Another gold stripe, another star
    Really quite boring sometimes
    I wish they’d send someone equal to my strategies
    What a guy
    I’m really quite a guy

    (Movie …)

    Palestinians must Look Good in Rags..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFPEhuUCG1M&feature=related

    Happy in rags…

  7. Ramzi Jaber
    July 31, 2012, 3:22 pm

    Thank you very much Mr. Clifford. Here is more, much more…. there is even more… The lies and criminal acts of the zionists are laid out to see by all as spoken and written by zionists themselves.

    Romney/Rosen, are you listening? Do you read anything when you get out of your cave? Someone send them the link to mondoweiss!!!!

    #1 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Theodor Herzl: Zionism demands a publicly recognized and legally secured homeland in Palestine for the Jewish people. The process of expropriation and removal of the Arabs of Palestine must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.

    #2 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    David Ben Gurion: If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. There has been Anti – Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that? So, it’s simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. And unless we show the Arabs that there is a high price to pay for murdering Jews, we won’t survive. We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population. We must expel the Arabs and take their places. We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return. Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and take away from them their country. Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice. To maintain the status quo will not do. We have to set up a dynamic state bent upon expansion. Take the American Declaration of Independence for instance. It contains no mention of the territorial limits. We are not obliged to state the limits of our State. After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.

    #3 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Ze’ev Jabotinsky: We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy. There is no justice, no law, and no God in heaven, only a single law which decides and supercedes all – Jewish settlements of all the land.

    #4 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Moshe Sharett: There is no Arab who is not harmed by Jews’ entry into Palestine. The state of Israel must, from time to time, prove clearly that it is strong, and able and willing to use force, in a devastating and highly effective way. When the Jewish state is established, it is very possible that the result will be transfer of Arabs. We are equally determined to explore all possibilities of getting rid, once and for all, of the huge Arab minority which originally threatened us. By the reduction of the Arabs on the one hand and Jewish immigration in the transition period on the other, we will ensure an absolute Hebrew majority in a parliamentary regime. Transfer could be the crowning achievement, the final stage in the development of policy, but certainly not the point of departure.

    #5 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Chaim Weizmann: Palestine must be built up without violating the legitimate interests of the Arabs.. Palestine is not Rhodesia… 600,0000 Arabs live there, who before the sense of justice of the world have exactly the same rights to their homes as we have to our National Home. There must not be one law for the Jew and another for the Arabs….In saying this, I do not assume that there are tendencies toward inequality or discrimination. It is merely a timely warning which is particularly necessary because we shall have a very large Arab minority. I am certain that the world will judge the Jewish State by what it will do with the Arabs. We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not. You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world.

    #6 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Moshe Dayan: What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived. Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population. We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs and we are building here a Hebrew, a Jewish state; instead of the Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. Let us not today fling accusations at the murderers. During the last 100 years our people have been in a process of building up the country and the nation, of expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that we are near the end of the road. I know how at least 80% of all the incidents with Syria started. We were sending a tractor to the demilitarized zone and we knew that the Syrians will shoot. If they did not shoot, we would instruct the tractor to go deeper, till the Syrians finally got upset and start shooting. Then we employed artillery, and later also the air-force… I did that… and Yitzhak Rabin did that….

    #7 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Ariel Sharon: Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial. Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them. Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We the Jewish people, control America and the Americans know it.

    #8 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Ehud Barak: I imagine that if I were a Palestinian of the right age, I would, at some stage, have joined one of the terror organizations.

    #9 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Menachen Begin: The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs.

    #10 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Yitzhak Shamir: The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.

    #11 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Golda Meir: How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to. There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed. This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.

    #12 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Raphael Eitan: When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle. We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.

    #13 Remember the TRUTH! FACTS ARE STUBBORN!!
    Yitzhak Rabin: We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, what is to be done with the Palestinian population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’. We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters. I believe that in the long run, separation between Israel and the Palestinians is the best solution for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I enter negotiations with Chairman Arafat, the leader of the PLO, the representative of the Palestinian people, with the purpose to have coexistence between our two entities, Israel as a Jewish state and Palestinian state, entity, next to us, living in peace. I would like Israel to be a Jewish state, and therefore not to annex over 2 million Palestinians who live in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to Israel, which will make Israel a bi-national state.

    • Binyamin in Orangeburg
      July 31, 2012, 7:02 pm

      1. Your post would be so much more credible if you sourced it to either Israeli or non-partisan links.

      2. Does any of it really matter? The Zionists carried out an ethnic cleansing, just as the Europeans did to the Native Americans. Now what? All Israeli Jews will “return” from whence they came? Arabs will become a majority and will impose upon the Jews what was imposed on them?

      • Annie Robbins
        July 31, 2012, 10:01 pm

        Now what? All Israeli Jews will “return” from whence they came? Arabs will become a majority and will impose upon the Jews what was imposed on them?

        you can’t think of anything else? perhaps you should read some history of american civil rights or SA apartheid. have some faith dude.

      • yonah fredman
        August 1, 2012, 12:02 am

        annie robbins- May be american civil rights instructs you on how to proceed vis a vis Israel, but it has nothing to instruct Israelis vis a vis a happy ending. South Africa might have something to instruct, but american civil rights not.

      • Fredblogs
        August 1, 2012, 2:02 pm

        Minority rights are fine, sticking the Jews’ heads in the guillotine and handing the activation switch to the Arabs is not.

      • Fredblogs
        August 1, 2012, 2:04 pm

        South Africa is not an example you really want to use. Since the fall of apartheid about 1 in 5 white South Africans have fled the country, which is now a contender for the title of rape and murder capital of the world.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa

        “And they lived happily ever after” once apartheid ended is a myth. All that happened was the West stopped paying attention once it was black on black and black on white oppression.

      • Blake
        August 1, 2012, 2:08 pm

        Fled Fred? Noticed most of their Olympic squad is white and very proudly South African. “Israel” should be declared non grata and maybe then they will see sense.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 1, 2012, 2:12 pm

        “Since the fall of apartheid about 1 in 5 white South Africans have fled the country, which is now a contender for the title of rape and murder capital of the world.”

        So you’re saying that the world should have let the South African government discriminate on the basis of race and ethnicity??

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 1, 2012, 2:15 pm

        “Minority rights are fine, sticking the Jews’ heads in the guillotine and handing the activation switch to the Arabs is not.”

        So then you are okay with the current situation — where the Arabs’ heads are in the guillotine with the Jews at the switch???? I’m trying to figure on what basis you find some bigotry acceptable and some not.

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 2:16 pm

        “Minority rights are fine, sticking the Jews’ heads in the guillotine and handing the activation switch to the Arabs is not.”

        The problem here is that having within the space of one human life time come to Palestine, seized the land, and driven the native population out, you would now plead that the Jews should be allowed to keep their gains for humanitarian reasons.

        You don’t see anything hypocritical in this stance?

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 2:22 pm

        “South Africa is not an example you really want to use. Since the fall of apartheid about 1 in 5 white South Africans have fled the country, which is now a contender for the title of rape and murder capital of the world…”

        However, no one (openly) finds in this sufficient reason to have allowed apartheid to continue instead.

        However, you would offer the mere possibility of a similar outcome to serve as sufficient reason for preserving what is in fact a more vicious and iniquitous system in Palestine.

        Once again, the logic is deficient. Since we are unprepared to restore apartheid, it can hardly be argued that we should preserve Jewish domination in Palestine.

      • Roya
        August 1, 2012, 2:27 pm

        Since the fall of apartheid about 1 in 5 white South Africans have fled the country,

        If that was supposed to make me shed tears over white supremacists who “fled” because they could no longer legally be white supremacists, you failed. And I won’t shed a tear over Jews who “flee” New Palestine once Jewish supremacy falls either. Will you people ever stop with the “Palestinians like being oppressed by their Jewish masters” charade?

      • hophmi
        August 1, 2012, 4:32 pm

        “The problem here is that having within the space of one human life time come to Palestine”

        From the gas chambers of Europe and from discrimination in the Arab world. Why is it that Edward Said managed to acknowledge the context and you can’t?

        “seized the land,”

        During a war fought against it.

        ” and driven the native population out”

        Many fled of their own accord.

        ” you would now plead that the Jews should be allowed to keep their gains for humanitarian reasons.”

        I’d argue at a minimum that if we’re going to experiment with putting two ethnicities of people together who dislike each other, something that has led to massive bloodshed around the world, we try it someplace other than a state borne in part from the ashes of the Holocaust.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 2, 2012, 9:23 am

        “From the gas chambers of Europe and from discrimination in the Arab world. Why is it that Edward Said managed to acknowledge the context and you can’t?”

        So you are saying that if poeple A are oppressed by people B that people A are justified in oppressing people C???

        “During a war fought against it.”

        Started by it with a massive ethnic cleansing operation.

        “Many fled of their own accord.”

        Nakba denial no better than any holocaust denial.

        “I’d argue at a minimum that if we’re going to experiment with putting two ethnicities of people together who dislike each other, something that has led to massive bloodshed around the world, we try it someplace other than a state borne in part from the ashes of the Holocaust.”

        No, hoppy, we aren’t experimenting. It is the zionist Jews who invaded and stole Palestine. They probably should have learned the lesson of the holocaust that demonstrated that it was the end result of the kind of ethno-religious bigotry that israel chose as the basis of their state.

      • eljay
        August 2, 2012, 10:12 am

        >> … a state borne [sic] in part from the ashes of the Holocaust.

        Sounds so tragic and noble when you omit the part about the Jewish terrorism, ethnic cleansing and oppression employed to create that supremacist “Jewish State”.

      • Mooser
        August 2, 2012, 6:22 pm

        “>> … a state borne [sic] in part from the ashes of the Holocaust.”

        You’ll have to excuse these Zionists, eljay. They’re always looking for some good to come out of the Holocaust. I sometimes wonder if they have a secret admiration for Hitler or something. But I guess if you want to keep the idea that good can come from genocides alive, you take what you can get.
        Frankly, I don’t find “born in part, from the ashes of the Holocaust” a good recommendation for anything! Not sure if that’s a provenance I’d covet, but it seems to make hophmi swell with pride.

      • Annie Robbins
        August 3, 2012, 1:44 pm

        Minority rights are fine, sticking the Jews’ heads in the guillotine and handing the activation switch to the Arabs is not.

        i can’t believe this crap passes moderation.

      • hophmi
        August 3, 2012, 2:04 pm

        “i can’t believe this crap passes moderation.”

        Really, Annie? Really, you can’t believe it? Do you actually read the comments your fellow travelers post here?

        Are you seriously incapable of understanding why Israelis would legitimately fear what would happen to them in a binational state?

        This is frightens me about you people. It’s perfectly OK to advocate a one-state solution, if that is what you really believe. But to ignore the risks that come along with it – that strikes me as either willful callousness or willful stupidity.

      • eljay
        August 3, 2012, 2:20 pm

        >> It’s perfectly OK to advocate a one-state solution, if that is what you really believe. But to ignore the risks that come along with it – that strikes me as either willful callousness or willful stupidity.

        It’s somewhat reminiscent of the callousness or willful stupidity of Zio-supremacists who advocated – and who continue to advocate – for a “Jewish State”, all the while ignoring the Jewish/Israeli terrorism, ethnic cleansing, colonialism, expansionism, oppression and, of course, supremacism that come along with it.

      • ColinWright
        August 3, 2012, 2:26 pm

        “…Not sure if that’s a provenance I’d covet, but it seems to make hophmi swell with pride…”

        In Hophmi’s mind, it’s a hunting license with no expiration date and an unlimited bag limit.

        Israel can do anything it likes, forever. Lots of Jews were killed in the Holocaust, you see.

      • hophmi
        August 3, 2012, 2:47 pm

        “In Hophmi’s mind, it’s a hunting license with no expiration date and an unlimited bag limit.”

        It’s interesting that you think you can read my mind. Oh well, always easier to distort and lie about a person’s point of view than actually consider it.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 3, 2012, 2:55 pm

        “Are you seriously incapable of understanding why Israelis would legitimately fear what would happen to them in a binational state?”

        “This is frightens me about you people. It’s perfectly OK to advocate a one-state solution, if that is what you really believe. But to ignore the risks that come along with it – that strikes me as either willful callousness or willful stupidity.”

        Hoppy, what is willfully callous or willfully stupid is the assumption by people like you that if there was to be any mass assaults in the region after a one-state solution that it would be the Arabs assaulting the Jews. Over the last 70 years, it’s been overwhelmingly the reverse, in small ways and large.

      • hophmi
        August 3, 2012, 3:05 pm

        ” Over the last 70 years, it’s been overwhelmingly the reverse, in small ways and large.”

        Over the last 70 years, Middle East Muslim rhetoric toward Israel has ranged from official refusal to recognize it exists to genocidal rhetoric like “Kill the Jews wherever you find them.”

        The same people have conducted a campaign of terrorism against Jews in the Middle East and sometimes Jews elsewhere in the world.

        Jews have a right to fear the genocidalists in the Arab and Muslim worlds.

      • MHughes976
        August 3, 2012, 4:13 pm

        If there have indeed been decades of assaults on Xs by Ys then it is reasonable (as a matter of prudence) on the part of the Ys to fear revenge should the Xs ever gain political equality. The reasonable nature of this fear does not imply that it is reasonable (as a matter of ethics) for the Xs to fend off the danger by yet more assaults on the Ys or by increased determination to make sure that political equality never comes.
        If the Ys never deserved political equality then things are different. But why shouldn’t they?

      • Mooser
        August 3, 2012, 5:25 pm

        “But to ignore the risks that come along with it –”

        ROTFLMSJAO!!! Yeah, okay, Israel can keep them safe in the settlements, outside its own territory, but can’t keep them safe if they move into Israel? Sure okay. And don’t worry Hophmi, if Israel goes democratic, Palestinians won’t need to resort to personal revenge. After all, they’ll have Israeli courts to go to for damages incurred during the Occupation.

        But don’t ever say that Israel doesn’t use the settlers as hostages. cause the internal logic of your comments (and you’ve made many like it) clearly shows that is how the settlers are being used. As hostages by the government of Israel, in case you didn’t get it.
        Nice way to take advantage of your fellow-Jews, Hophmi.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 3, 2012, 5:51 pm

        And over the last 70 years Jews have killed more Arabs than vice versa, aided and abetted by Jews in the diaspora and governments under the thrall of zionists. Arabs have MORE reason to fear the genocidalists and racist murderers in the Jewish world.

      • thankgodimatheist
        August 3, 2012, 9:49 pm

        “Many fled of their own accord.”

        Here we go again! Hermetically impermeable to facts! Even when every single Israeli (new) historian states otherwise..A zionist mind is also a pathological one. One living in denial.
        Now let’s just, for the sake of argument accept the idea that they “fled of their own accord”, who made sure that it was the case?
        As someone over here responded once to one of your likes ” get the fuck out of my face”!!

      • RoHa
        July 31, 2012, 10:29 pm

        “All Israeli Jews will “return” from whence they came? Arabs will become a majority and will impose upon the Jews what was imposed on them?”

        Not necessarily. If the Jews in the area are not prepared to live together with the Arabs as human beings (and they show little sign of it so far) it might turn out that way.

        But that fear should not stand in the way of justice and full cights for the Palestinians.

      • Edward Q
        July 31, 2012, 10:37 pm

        “Does any of it really matter?”

        Does any injustice really matter? It amazes me how the same people who often decry anti-semitism ask this question. But then hypocrisy seems to be a signature feature of right-wing politics.

        “Now what?”

        There are a large group of Palestinians and a larger group of Arabs, Muslims, and others that are not just going to forget what happened.

      • Blake
        August 1, 2012, 12:22 am

        @ Binyamin: Israeli links are credible? I have not heard of any native Americans awaiting a right of return. No European colonizers ethnically cleansed the native people out. No comparison at all with an ideological cult with a sense of entitlement to a native peoples land.

      • Fredblogs
        August 1, 2012, 3:49 pm

        @Blake. The reason the NAs don’t need the right of return is that there were so few of them after smallpox and other European borne diseases wiped out 90% of the population and the settlers wiped out most of the rest that they were no demographic threat to the European rule. They are about 1.3% of the population. And they don’t want to exterminate the whites. If there were as small a percentage of Palestinians compared to Israel as there are NAs compared to the USA the Israelis would have let them in long ago. There are more than 15 times higher a percentage of Arab Israelis in Israel as native Americans in America.

        As for “no European colonizers ethnically cleansed the native people out”, ever hear of “the trail of tears”?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_tears

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 1, 2012, 3:59 pm

        “The reason the NAs don’t need the right of return is that there were so few of them after smallpox and other European borne diseases wiped out 90% of the population and the settlers wiped out most of the rest that they were no demographic threat to the European rule…. If there were as small a percentage of Palestinians compared to Israel as there are NAs compared to the USA the Israelis would have let them in long ago.”

        Thanks, Fredblogs. NOW I understand why zionists keep bringing up the example of Native Americans: y’all have genocide envy.

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 4:33 pm

        “@Blake. The reason the NAs don’t need the right of return is that there were so few of them after smallpox…”

        This is an explanation of why the United States is a historically viable nation and Israel is not.

        It is not a justification for either one, and certainly not for Israel.

      • Blake
        August 1, 2012, 4:46 pm

        So they were relocated, not ethnically cleansed out of America awaiting a right of return. We live here and now and you are presently doing that to the Palestinians (and have been doing it for the past 64 years). Instead of condemning the actions of the zionist impostors in Palestine you make excuses for them. Feigning concern for what happened to the native Americans but in the same breath saying it’s okay to happen to the Palestinians. I wouldn’t bat an eyelid if what goes around comes back around and happens to you. I doubt the Palestinians could be so heartless though you are lucky they are meek and very forgiving. At least America has tried to right their wrong, zionists are presently doing causing these crimes.

      • Fredblogs
        August 1, 2012, 5:02 pm

        @Blake
        If you want to use anti-Israel quotes, it is more likely that they are accurate coming from a pro-Israel site than from an anti-Israel site. Since anti-Israel sites take negative “quotes” at face value, while pro-Israel sites are more likely to research the negative quotes.

      • RoHa
        August 1, 2012, 11:52 pm

        “I wouldn’t bat an eyelid if what goes around comes back around and happens to you.”

        Unfortunately, if such an expulsion were to happen, it would include a number of innocent victims who are too young to have responsibility for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

      • Blake
        August 3, 2012, 6:01 am

        Fred: I will take the words of Israeli historians who concur with the Palestinian version of events (after viewing docs released 30 yrs after the Nakba by the Govt of “Israel”) over that of Israeli revisionist propaganda sites. TRUTH IS ON THE SIDE OF THE OPPRESSED (not the oppressors). May I call this Fred a schmuck pls (if it won’t get me banned). Defending the indefensible attention seeking trolls are tres annoying!

      • Mooser
        August 3, 2012, 5:31 pm

        “Thanks, Fredblogs. NOW I understand why zionists keep bringing up the example of Native Americans: y’all have genocide envy.”

        Bingo, Woody. In a tragic macabre way, it’s funny, Jews calling for atrocity and genocide to be accepted methods of dealing with political or religious problems. Yes sir, atrocity and genocide is a tool which has served the Jews well…..or rather, been served to.

    • Fredblogs
      July 31, 2012, 7:35 pm

      Your Moshe Dayan quote #6 omits key parts and some of it is just made up or quoted from some other source.

      “We came to this country which was already populated by Arabs and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish state there. In considerable areas of the country we bought the lands from the Arabs, Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not know even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exist; not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahalal arose in the place of Mahalul, Gevat — in the place of Jibra, Sarid — in the place of Haneifs and Kefar Yehoshua — in the place of Tell Shaman. There is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”

      • Brewer
        August 1, 2012, 4:35 am

        Despite the fact that the full quote in no way alters the sense of the truncated quote (Dayan did become something of an apostate towards the end), he was always given to a little hyperbole – “considerable areas of the country” ……..being a full 6 – 7%.

      • eljay
        August 1, 2012, 11:42 am

        >> “We came to this country … and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish state there.”

        Funny, ol’ Fraudblogs just finished lecturing me in another thread about how Israel is indeed the secular, democratic and egalitarian nation state of and for all Israelis, equally.

        The government of Israel doesn’t believe it, Zio-supremacists don’t believe it and, apparently, not even Mr. Dayan believed it.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 1, 2012, 11:48 am

        Of course. At that moment, the needs of the Party zionists was that 2 + 2 =4. So Fredo said it was 4. When it needs to equal 5, all that is necessary is for one to exercise reality control through the application of doublethink.

      • Fredblogs
        August 1, 2012, 1:59 pm

        I said it was relatively secular. Lots of countries have a national religion. That doesn’t mean they aren’t largely secular. Unlike most Muslim countries, where converting from Islam is a capital offense.

      • eljay
        August 1, 2012, 2:56 pm

        >> I said it was relatively secular. …

        OK, so it’s a “relatively secular” supremacist Jewish state. The fact remains that it is not a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli state, a state of and for all Israelis equally. (“We came to this country … and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish state there.”)

        >> Unlike most Muslim countries, where converting from Islam is a capital offense.

        Zio-supremacists, always reaching for the bottom…

        “Israel: Hey, we may not be as good as the best, but at least we’re not as bad as the worst!”

      • Fredblogs
        August 1, 2012, 4:04 pm

        @eljay

        re: “better than the worst” you say that as if it were a bad thing. Face it, there are 200 countries in the world. Israel is better than most of them. What you said applies to every country except the best in the world. So for any particular measure, it applies to everyone but two countries.

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 4:37 pm

        “…Funny, ol’ Fraudblogs just finished lecturing me in another thread about how Israel is indeed the secular, democratic and egalitarian nation state of and for all Israelis, equally…”

        Equivocation is a key component of the Zionist ‘argument.’

      • eljay
        August 1, 2012, 6:05 pm

        >> re: “better than the worst” you say that as if it were a bad thing.

        Every time hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists like you defend Israel, you don’t compare yourselves to the best, you compare yourselves to the worst, as though that somehow excuses the immorality and criminality of your oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state.

        Bra-f*cking-vo to you. Keep reaching for the bottom, Fraud.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 1, 2012, 5:14 pm

        “Your Moshe Dayan quote #6 omits key parts”

        Yeah, god forbid you misquote the ethnic cleanser and war criminal.

    • dimadok
      July 31, 2012, 8:39 pm

      Sources please? Anything with the archive link on it.

      • dimadok
        August 1, 2012, 11:16 am

        One example here:
        http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2011/05/06/3087593/andrew-sullivan-owes-yitzhak-shamir-an-apology

        Makes the rest of the “quotes” look like fairy tales, hear says and rumors.

      • Annie Robbins
        August 1, 2012, 11:28 am

        cockroaches or grasshoppers….you’re splitting hairs. http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/01/world/shamir-promises-to-crush-rioters.html

      • dimadok
        August 1, 2012, 1:18 pm

        @Annie.I am not. I stick to the factual statements-same if I would say that dead Palestinian terrorist is good and someone else will make it as me saying that “dead Palestinians are good”.

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 4:40 pm

        ‘@Annie.I am not. I stick to the factual statements-same if I would say that dead Palestinian terrorist is good and someone else will make it as me saying that “dead Palestinians are good”.’

        That Israelis are given to redefining any dead Palestinian as a ‘terrorist,’ makes such a mistake understandable. If a dead Palestinian is indeed therefore a terrorist, the statements ‘a dead Palestinian terrorist is good,’ and ‘a dead Palestinian is good’ are indeed equivalent.

        Good one about how you ‘stick to factual statements,’ incidentally. 5 chutzbah points.

      • Dexter
        August 2, 2012, 2:51 am

        And are dead Israeli terrorists good too dimadok?

        Because Israel is full of uncivilized, backwards, terrorists…what should we, in the civilized, world do with them?

      • Annie Robbins
        August 3, 2012, 1:41 pm

        dim, ‘good’ is a value judgement whereas grasshoppers and cockroaches are insects…easily squashed. you’re splitting hairs and diverting and everyone, including you, knows it. #hasbarafail

      • hophmi
        August 3, 2012, 1:59 pm

        No one’s splitting hairs. You’re just recycling a bunch of excessive rhetoric quotes, some probably fabricated, and ignoring the fact that my side has just as many that we can cite as well, because IT’S A TWO-SIDED CONFLICT.

  8. Bumblebye
    July 31, 2012, 3:23 pm

    They published it?
    Mr Clifford’s made a hole in that wall!

  9. Dan Crowther
    July 31, 2012, 4:23 pm

    I think the campaign was designed so he could write this response – bout says it all.

    • Charles Barwin
      July 31, 2012, 8:16 pm

      Good theory. He crushed their self-serving lies like a grasshopper against a wall.

      “One of Nixon’s advisors, Leonard Garment, reported he was flooded with letters and phone calls from Jews and asked for Kissinger’s advice on the matter.
      According to the transcripts, Kissinger, who is Jewish, replied to Garment: “Is there a more self-serving group of people than the Jewish community?”
      In response, Garment, also Jewish, said: “None in the world.”
      Kissinger responded: “What the hell do they think they are accomplishing? You can’t even tell bastards anything in confidence because they’ll leak it.””
      http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4150018,00.html

  10. Stephen Shenfield
    July 31, 2012, 5:39 pm

    Moshe Dayan delivered his famous speech in 1956 at the funeral of Roy Rotenberg. It culminates in these words:

    “Let us take stock today with ourselves. We are a generation of settlement and without the steel helmet and the gun’s muzzle we will not be able to plant a tree and build a house. Let us not fear to look squarely at the hatred that consumes and fills the lives of hundreds of Arabs who live around us. Let us not drop our gaze, lest our arms be weaken. That is the fate of our generation. This is our choice – to be ready and armed, tough and hard – or else the sword shall fall from our hands and our lives will be cut short.”

    I think an important point is that he reconciles his understanding of Palestinian hatred with his Zionist commitment by displacing responsibility onto the mysterious, cruel and irresistible force called “fate.” Awareness of Zionism as a choice to which there may be alternatives is suppressed. The conflict then appears as a Greek tragedy in which both sides are helpless victims of fate. Tragedy has a definite esthetic appeal.

    • yonah fredman
      July 31, 2012, 10:38 pm

      StephenShenfield- Dayan was born in Palestine; he didn’t move there, he was born there and likewise most of those to whom he addressed his words. It was fate rather than choice that placed them on that spot at that moment. There may have been individuals who were raised like those to whom Dayan spoke his words who had overcome fate and escaped to the diaspora, but fate was the overwhelming factor in the lives of most of those he was talking to. If you don’t like the word fate, call it circumstances other than choice.

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 4:08 am

        “There may have been individuals who were raised like those to whom Dayan spoke his words who had overcome fate and escaped to the diaspora, but fate was the overwhelming factor in the lives of most of those he was talking to. If you don’t like the word fate, call it circumstances other than choice.”

        ‘Fate.’ All you can offer to justify Israel is ‘fate.’

        Well, happily, I see no reason why the US should subsidize, protect, or support ‘fate.’ So we’ll save our money, and ‘fate’ should then take care of Israel.

    • Miura
      August 1, 2012, 12:01 pm

      Norman Finkelstein’s Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine conflict had a searing chapter ending which was based on an infamous speech given by Heinrich Himmler in Nazi occupied Poland. Googling for it, returned this phrase:

      ‘We shall never be rough or heartless where it is not necessary; that is clear’.

      If you search for ‘Posen’ (name of Polish town) in Norman’s book, you can read more of the speech that seems to have a rhetorical structure similar to Dayan’s peroration.

      • lysias
        August 1, 2012, 3:23 pm

        Reading the Dayan also made me think of that speech of Himmler’s.

  11. ThorsteinVeblen2012
    July 31, 2012, 5:42 pm

    Palestinians are Jews who loved their country more than their religion.

    • Brewer
      August 1, 2012, 4:38 am

      Nice quotable aphorism Thorstein. I’ve been looking for something like that. Very neatly put.

    • Fredblogs
      August 2, 2012, 1:22 pm

      Palestinians are Arabs who invaded in the 7th century and after. Not as nice an aphorism, but it has the virtue of being true instead of false.

      • RoHa
        August 3, 2012, 12:52 am

        “Palestinians are Arabs who invaded in the 7th century and after.”

        The invading Arabs intermarried with the people who were living there, so the current Palestinian Arabs are as much descendants of the pre-invasion people as they are of the invading Arabs.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 3, 2012, 9:11 am

        “Palestinians are Arabs who invaded in the 7th century and after.”

        Yeah, in exactly the same way Ashkenazis are central Asian converts with no connection with Palestine.

      • ColinWright
        August 3, 2012, 2:20 pm

        No they’re not. They’re descendants of demonic Martian invaders who descended in a ninth century dust storm.

      • thankgodimatheist
        August 3, 2012, 11:29 pm

        “Palestinians are Arabs who invaded in the 7th century and after.”

        Even the Christian ones, 30% of the population in 1948?
        Today’s Palestinians are a mixture of the old (pre-invasion) and the “new” (invaders) But Christian Palestinians have their roots in Palestine from time immemorial. They’re the oldest Christian Communities in the world.
        Try harder next time.

      • Avi_G.
        August 4, 2012, 3:53 am

        Fredblogs says:
        August 2, 2012 at 1:22 pm

        Palestinians are Arabs who invaded in the 7th century and after. Not as nice an aphorism, but it has the virtue of being true instead of false.

        frogie is confusing Arabs with Moslems. The Hasbara manual instructs minions to repeatedly mention that Moslems invaded in the 7th Century. Even that little tid-bit he can’t get right.

        By the way, Arabs have been living in Palestine since time immemorial.

        And much like they have revised history from 2009, Zionists like to revise centuries-old history, as well.

        Thus, they have perverted history and spread the lie that the Cananites, who lived in Palestine well before the so-called Jewish exodus from Egypt took place, have no connection with today’s Palestinians.

        As a result, should anyone engage in the We-Were-Here-First game in an effort to lay claim to the land, then let it be known that Palestinians were there first, well before Joshua and his armies marched to Jericho and burnt to the ground every tree, every house, killed every animal, livestock, man woman and child. One may call this the Biblical Nakbah. The shoe fits.

        You see, the problem for Zionists is that the truth has a pro-Palestinian bias.

  12. seafoid
    July 31, 2012, 6:02 pm

    The Sephardi story is desperately sad as well

    “Where did the Jews get an arabic style of culture ? ” . What a f#$%^* Ashkenazi question

    -Although I have a good ear and can speak some arabic when we were young we didn’t want to hear the language. We just hated it when our parents were talking arabic. Yemenite arabic.

    “Is there an appreciation of arabic culture?”
    – When I was growing up as a girl it was very difficult

    When the accounts are drawn up after TSHTF the suffering of the sephardim will have to be recognised.

    But they turned her into a fine Ziobot anyway

    • sardelapasti
      August 1, 2012, 3:25 am

      Since when are the Sefardi Arabic-speaking? Stop maintaining that Zionist-fed propagandistic confusion!

      • seafoid
        August 1, 2012, 10:15 am

        All those Libyan Jews spoke Yiddish of course.

      • sardelapasti
        August 6, 2012, 10:52 am

        Arabic is not Spanish. Totally different languages. And Spain has not been in the Arab world for a long time, as opposed to Lebanon. And Yiddish has nothing to do in this discussion.

    • Roya
      August 6, 2012, 5:07 pm

      When she said “Palestinians have a massive promotional propaganda” I rewinded 3 times to make sure I was hearing correctly. I was.

  13. eljay
    July 31, 2012, 6:33 pm

    F*ckin’ A, Mr. Clifford! \m/ > , < \m/

    I'd say the Zio-supremacists should suck on those facts for a while, but it won't have any effect on them. Zio-supremacism is a powerful antidote against reason, morality, justice, compassion and equality (among other things).

  14. Fredblogs
    July 31, 2012, 7:10 pm

    Actually, in the DBG letter he said “we must not expel the Arabs and take their land”. Someone else subsequently crossed out the “not”.

    • Jabberwocky
      August 1, 2012, 2:36 am

      This has been extensively covered in response to CAMERAs assertions:

      http://www.palestine-studies.org/files/correct_JPSresponds.pdf

      Ben Gurion was a deceitful Zionist who lied to the International Community and wrote his true thoughts in his diary – which he presumably never expected to be public because it was in Hebrew. Like many of the Zionazi comments he made in published books – also in Hebrew.

      Zionists cannot accept the facts because they totally undermine the basis of their beliefs which are based purely on deception and lies.

    • ColinWright
      August 1, 2012, 4:13 am

      “Actually, in the DBG letter he said “we must not expel the Arabs and take their land”. Someone else subsequently crossed out the “not”.”

      This, I doubt. Ben Gurion is a gold mine for revealing quotes about Zionism. It would have been utterly out of character for him to write,’ we must not expel the Arabs and take their land’ — and very much in character for him to write ‘we must expel the Arabs and take their land.’

      • Fredblogs
        August 1, 2012, 1:56 pm

        Whether or not you think it is out of character, that is what is in the letter.

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 4:44 pm

        What is your source for this?

      • Fredblogs
        August 2, 2012, 1:26 pm

        Source is Benny Morris:

        “The problem was that in the original handwritten copy of the letter deposited in the IDF Archive, which I consulted after my quote was criticized, there were several words crossed out in the middle of the relevant sentence, rendering what remained as “We must expel the Arabs …” But Ben-Gurion rarely made corrections to anything he had written, and this passage was not consonant with the spirit of the paragraph in which it was embedded. It was suggested that the crossing out was done by some other hand, later — and that the sentence, when the words that were crossed out were restored, was meant by Ben-Gurion to say and said exactly the opposite (“We must not expel the Arabs … ”).”

        http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/12/07/ben-gurion-herzl-quotes-morris-rubin/

      • Annie Robbins
        August 2, 2012, 1:49 pm

        why are posters here regurgitating this argument? i recommend the conversation here, on the thread ‘
        ‘We must expel Arabs and take their place’: Institute for Palestine Studies publishes 1937 Ben-Gurion letter advocating the expulsion of Palestinians’

        http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-their-place-institute-for-palestine-studies-publishes-1937-ben-gurion-letter-advocating-the-expulsion-of-palestinians.html#comment-443003

        or here: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-their-place-institute-for-palestine-studies-publishes-1937-ben

        LOL! Morris is already irrelevant. The only question the University wanted answered was whether or not Pappe had documentary evidence, like Shabetai Teveth’s book, this transcript, or one of Ben Gurion’s manuscripts that supports the quote: ‘We must expel the Arabs and take their place.’ Exeter University considers the matter closed.

        Notwithstanding your sloppy logic, the standard of scholarship and academic practice requires us to distinguish between mistranslation, falsified documents, and self-censorship. In either case it would require the University to consider Ben Gurion’s many other statements on forced transfer and dismiss false and unethical claims, like the ones lodged by CAMERA, that Shabetai Teveth and other researchers were using a “mistranslation”. In fact everyone admits the original was altered to read “We must expel the Arabs and take their place”.

        “Where is the context here that is anything but anti-Zionist? Are we to assume that the Peel Commission’s partition was in any way fair to the Zionist aspiration? Borders defensible by the Jewish military against the inevitable Arab attack? Was it acceptable to BG even though it was agreed to by the Jews in order to get a state rather than risk having none? Again, see Morris.”

        Again see Morris’ letter to the Editor that CAMERA cited. He said the first part of Pappe’s quote – which said the Arabs must go – was authentic. Exeter University explained that the second part of the sentence was a summary that wasn’t inside the quotation marks in Pappe’s original and that it would be corrected in future editions. End of story.

        Moving on, we are discussing the unchallenged contents of Ben Gurion’s letter, and the fact that whichever version of the sentence you choose to employ, he was unequivocally talking about using superior military force to prevent the Arabs from prohibiting Jewish settlement in the territory of their own state after the partition had occurred. That’s both immoral and a grave violation of international law. Anti-Zionism and the opinion of Benny Morris aren’t even factors that need to be considered in a sane analysis of that situation.

        The bottom line is that PhDs are perfectly capable of forming their own opinions as to whether or not the original letter has been damaged, corrected, self-censored, & etc. without any help from CAMERA.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 2, 2012, 1:59 pm

        “Source is Benny Morris:”

        LMAO. Morris’s weak excuses in defense of Ben-Gurion don’t even meet your low standards, Fredo. (Hey, are you ready to fully condemn Sacha Cohen for his libel yet?)

        Until Morris can demonstrate why this would not be one of the “rare” time the criminal Ben-Gurion made corrections; detail who the person was who suggested to Morris that the cross out was done by someone else; demonstrate what evidence exists that who that person was, then I think we can just assume that this is Morris’s way of saying, “I was criticised so I gave up.” Because the “We must expel the Arabs” is absolutely “consonant with the spirit” of everything that Ben-Gurion did in his life.

      • Cliff
        August 2, 2012, 2:21 pm

        We’ve been through this, Blobs.

        Refer to Hostage’s archives. He had a long, drawn-out exchange with another troll.

      • Cliff
        August 2, 2012, 2:29 pm

        Thanks Annie!

        I had forgotten Adam had covered this issue already!

        http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-their-place-institute-for-palestine-studies-publishes-1937-ben-gurion-letter-advocating-the-expulsion-of-palestinians.html

        And Hostage added a lot to the discussion in the comments section.

        ZioBot#whatever is just filibustering.

        Is it possible these trolls are posting from different IP addresses and having different people use the same account? That would explain the short-term amnesia. At least one reason.

        The other reason is, they love MW and realize it’s spotlight – hence, they will get their agenda out regardless of whether the point has been beaten to death already.

        Kind of like the recent trolls like ‘Merk’, acting sooooooo surprised at the sarcastic comments made here toward religion (in general). Merk is a ZioBot, but would he be criticizing JihadWatch or Pam Gellar at AtlasShrugged? Or the Haaretz, ArutzSheva, etc. etc. etc. (any Zionist blog/website) comments section as he has here?

        A Zionist has to seek out MW. We don’t. This is OUR community.

        No anti-Zionist goes to a Zionist blog. There is no sustained presence. Why? Because there is no intellectual battles to be had there or possible catharsis (whether the user would admit to it or not; politics aside).

        It’s ALWAYS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. ZioBots on anti-Zionist websites, or on benign websites spreading Zionist opinion if such and such website becomes anti-Zionist ever-so-slightly during Israeli massacre operations like Cast Lead (as per Israeli reporting on the government paying keyboard warriors/monitor tanning nobodies to fight for IsraHell on-line).

        Fredfails, update your schtick, baddie.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 2, 2012, 2:36 pm

        “why are posters here regurgitating this argument?”

        I assume it’s because we’re bored.

      • ColinWright
        August 2, 2012, 3:53 pm

        First off, the source for this is merely hearsay. Benny Morris has seen this otherwise inaccessible document.

        Secondly, it directly contradicts the spirit both of many of of Ben Gurion’s other utterances and of his actions.

        It really is as if David Irving told us about this otherwise inaccessible letter in which Hitler had actually written: ‘Dear Himmler. We must not exterminate the Jews. I do not approve of your proposed program…’

        Sorry, but that really is the way it is. Like Irving, Morris does perform rhetorical and intellectual handstands in favor of his chosen cause, and in this case, the actual document is suspiciously not at hand.

        It’s possible Gurion wrote this — but even if he did, he certainly seems to have changed his mind at some point thereafter.

        Finally, I note the quote is from 1937. It’s kind of academic what Ben Gurion said in 1937. The proof in the pudding came in 1948. Would a 1930 quote from Hitler demonstrate that he had nothing to do with the Holocaust that got underway in 1941?

        …and again, the analogy works. Eleven years earlier, neither Hitler nor ben Gurion had any assurance they would be at the head of an actual nation, able to implement whatever policies they thought best.

      • Exiled At Home
        August 2, 2012, 4:55 pm

        Freddy,

        Did you not just chide Colin for suggesting that Ben-Gurion’s use of the phrase “we must not expel the Arabs” would have been out of character for him? Essentially, your point was that whether or not something is out of character is not evidence of anything in and of itself.

        But then you turn to Benny Morris’ analysis which relies on the fact that Ben-Gurion rarely made corrections to his writings as evidence that he wasn’t the one to cross out the word “not” in his letter. Are you not relying on whether or not something was out of character for Ben-Gurion as your own evidence?

        It would seem to me that none of us should rely on whether or not something is out of character, and take the letter at face value, hand-written corrections and all. In which case, the original letter, handwritten, with scribbles and corrections reads:

        We must expel the Arabs and take their land.

      • thankgodimatheist
        August 3, 2012, 11:34 pm

        “We must not expel the Arabs … ”
        Only way to know what he wanted to say is in what, practically, took place later..The Zionists did expel the “Arabs”, didn’t they? Did that took place against DBG’s wishes? Hard to believe since we all know that he was the MC in the ethnic cleansing enterprise..

    • justicewillprevail
      August 1, 2012, 6:28 am

      Said the five year old re his homework.

  15. Fredblogs
    July 31, 2012, 7:27 pm

    I guess he couldn’t be bothered to check on whether the quotes were genuine or not:

    “Herzl’s diary entry makes no mention of either Arabs or Palestine, and for good reason. A careful reading of Herzl’s diary entries for June 1895 reveals that, at the time, he did not consider Palestine to be the future site of Jewish resettlement but rather South America.”

    From the diary itself:

    “When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of immovable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back.

    It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire old world a wonderful example. …

    Estate owners who are attached to their soil … will be offered a complete transplantation–to any place they wish, like our own people. …If this offer is not accepted either, no harm will be done. … we shall simply leave them there ….”

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=1019

    Like I said, fake quotes are common.

    • ColinWright
      August 1, 2012, 4:23 am

      “…I guess he couldn’t be bothered to check on whether the quotes were genuine or not:

      “Herzl’s diary entry makes no mention of either Arabs or Palestine, and for good reason. A careful reading of Herzl’s diary entries for June 1895 reveals that, at the time, he did not consider Palestine to be the future site of Jewish resettlement but rather South America.”…”

      This is half true. ‘Palestinians’ appears to be an unwarranted interpolation. At the time, Herzl was still thinking in terms of Argentina, and it was the penniless Argentinians who were to ‘be spirited across the border.’ The plan was to ally the Zionists with the wealthy landowners.

      Does this make Zionism better or worse? It appears to strip it of even the justification of a spurious claim to Palestine.

      • Fredblogs
        August 1, 2012, 1:57 pm

        Spirited across the border by finding them jobs elsewhere. Heaven forbid.

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 4:45 pm

        Also by denying them employment or income in their original homeland.

      • Blake
        August 2, 2012, 2:02 pm

        Exactly Colin as if jobs are more important than losing their homeland to a foreign impostor.

    • justicewillprevail
      August 1, 2012, 6:27 am

      LOL, you link to zionist mouthpiece Camera, and then say fake quotes are common. How true in your and camera’s case.

  16. Blake
    July 31, 2012, 8:03 pm

    Bravo Henry Clifford.

  17. ahadhaadam
    July 31, 2012, 9:43 pm

    Debating Zionists is like debating the flat earth society. As if you need quotes and proofs for something which is obvious even to a five year old: you can’t create a Jewish state on a land populated by a vast majority of non-Jews without ethnically cleansing them. The fact that these flat earthers deny the very essence of the dispossession and ethnic cleansing project in Palestine which aims to create a Jewish Lebensraum just proves that these people cannot be reasoned with.

    • yourstruly
      August 1, 2012, 12:38 am

      “……proves that these people cannot be reasoned with.” then why do we keep trying? after going round and round so many times and always ending up where the argument began, wouldn’t ignoring them be just as (perhaps more) effective? what happens is that our responding to israel’s apologists enables them to steal many threads that, otherwise, might have taken more educational and rewarding directions. since undergraduate psychology teaches that the most effective way to change someone’s bad behavior is to either ignore or punish it, and since hasbara commenters are literally begging for replies, wouldn’t ignoring them be equivalent to punishing them? the exchange easily could be cut off with a few carefully chosen words, such as, “subject thoroughly and seemingly endlessly covered in previous threads, please review archives.”

      • ahadhaadam
        August 1, 2012, 10:22 am

        There’s no point debating Zionists who have been inculcated since birth with that belief system – believe me, I tried. But regular Americans definitely can be swayed once they are provided with facts and told the history of Palestine and the essence of the Jewish state. And of course, America is the key because without its unconditional support, Israel would not be able to carry out those policies.

    • mig
      August 1, 2012, 1:21 am

      @ahadhaadam

      Debating Zionists is like debating the flat earth society.

      Yup, it is like in this video

    • ColinWright
      August 1, 2012, 4:24 am

      “…The fact that these flat earthers deny the very essence of the dispossession and ethnic cleansing project in Palestine which aims to create a Jewish Lebensraum just proves that these people cannot be reasoned with.”

      Indeed. However, they do have to be dealt with. We need to move on from the triumphant realization that all Zionists are lying morons.

      Okay. So what? What’s to be done about it?

      • Mooser
        August 2, 2012, 6:34 pm

        “Indeed. However, they do have to be dealt with. We need to move on from the triumphant realization that all Zionists are lying morons.

        Uh, excuse me, but are we ‘dealing with’ or ‘moving on from’? Sentence is unclear. Can you clarify?

      • ColinWright
        August 3, 2012, 2:23 pm

        “Sentence is unclear. Can you clarify?”

        Considering the source of the request, I don’t think I will. It would seem I’ve just given you a taste of your own medicine.

      • Mooser
        August 3, 2012, 5:37 pm

        Colin, I’m sorry you can’t understand my sentences, but it doesn’t surprise me, since we don’t have the same flat-screen schema for life. Gotten any good results from torture lately? Maybe you could get the Indians to admit they’re stealing all the fish. Or should salmon have the right to arm bears?

      • ColinWright
        August 3, 2012, 6:40 pm

        ‘…since we don’t have the same flat-screen schema for life…’

        ! Someplace else on this board I was just accused of being too vague and multidimensional…or something. The accusation itself was a tad vague. Must be doing something right…I guess.

        ‘…Gotten any good results from torture lately?…’

        Oh look! He’s found an accusation! How exciting! Are you pleased?

        Did I miss it somewhere? Did you say what you would have done instead?

        You’ve fastened on the concept that I approved of torture. Not really — my point (if you would bother to read posts all the way to the end) is that there were no good choices after 9/11. So it’s not enough to denounce the choices that were made: that’s like a spoiled five year old who announces that he’s hungry but doesn’t want anything that’s in the store.

        You have to say what you would have done instead. As I keep saying. If you want to have a fine knock-down, drag-out debate about 9/11 and all that followed, I suppose I’ve let myself in for it and we’ll just have to set up a thread and go at it for two hundred posts — but please. Say what you would have done instead.

  18. talknic
    August 1, 2012, 1:19 am

    Quoting what might have been said by Zionistas is fraught with “where did ya get it”, hearsay, he said they said …

    The UN on the other hand has an official record of official statements totally relevant to the State of Israel, it’s acceptance of partition, it’s acknowledged sovereign extent and clearly showing why there are so many UNSC resolutions against Israel.

    http://wp.me/pDB7k-Yx Accepting UNGA res 181 and stating the irrelevance of the Arab States refusal (you won’t find ANY official Jewish Agency statements in Wikipedia accepting UNGA res 181 — too revealing!!)

    http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk Showing official Israeli occupation of territories “outside the State of Israel” from 1948. (likewise not in WikIPedia)

    The US veto vote in the UNSC is the ONLY thing standing in the way of justice.

  19. hophmi
    August 1, 2012, 3:30 am

    Same old nonsense, same fabrications, same lack of sourcing. It’s truthiness. I guess like Fox News Republicans, it’s truth as long as you believe it hard enough.

    • seanmcbride
      August 1, 2012, 10:48 am

      hophmi,

      Is this an accurate quote from Benjamin Netanyahu?

      “Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories”

      See:

      http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3615

      The quote is allegedly from the Wall Street Journal, July 14, 1990.

      How many interesting inferences can we extract from that quote?

      • seanmcbride
        August 1, 2012, 10:53 am

        Another take on this quote:

        http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2009/03/2009325171634815939

        BEGIN QUOTE
        As deputy foreign minister in 1989, speaking to students at Tel Aviv’s Bar Ilan University in Israel, he said:

        “Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China [Tiananmen Square], when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.” (Israeli Journal Hotam, November 24, 1989)
        END QUOTE

      • hophmi
        August 1, 2012, 12:36 pm

        ““Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories””

        Since I have seen so many fabricated quotes on the net, I do not accept the legitimacy of any of them until I see the actual source. Like many, the source of this quote in a newspaper article predating the net.

        The quote is highly unlikely to be accurate given that Netanyahu is not known to have ever favored transfer and even if he did hold a view like this, would not have explicitly given it to the Wall Street Journal. The fact that the same quote, verbatim, is attributed to another source at another time (a Hebrew source, no less) is a clue that it’s a fabrication.

        Also, apparently, this quote has been debunked on Mondoweiss before. By me. 7/14/90 was a Saturday, and the WSJ did not publish a Saturday edition in 1990. http://mondoweiss.net/2011/11/washington-post-touts-that-weird-wonderful-israeli-democracy.html/comment-page-1#comment-390683

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 4:51 pm

        However, the original source is an Israeli paper from 1989. Whether or not the Wall Street Journal reprinted it is beside the point.

      • ColinWright
        August 1, 2012, 4:59 pm

        Moving on with this…the discussion at Wikiquotes is illuminating:

        “…I haven’t been able to verify Netanyahu’s exact words, but there was a controversy about remarks he made at Bar-Ilan in 1989. There are brief articles in the Jerusalem Post on November 19, 1989 and November 21, 1989.

        Summaries: “Deputy Foreign Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has called for Israel to exploit political opportunities in order to expel large numbers of Palestinians from the territories. Netanyahu made the remark in a speech to Bar-Ilan University students on Thursday. In a tape recording of a portion of Netanyahu’s address obtained by The Jerusalem Post last night, the deputy foreign minister clearly states that ‘five, 50 or 500’ inciters should have been expelled at various times since the start of the intifada.” and “Deputy Foreign Minister Binyamin Netanyahu yesterday denied that he had called for large-scale expulsions of Palestinians from the territories. Replying in the Knesset to a motion for the agenda by Tewfik Toubi, (Democratic Front for Peace and Equality) which was struck off by a large majority, Netanyahu said that in his speech to students at Bar-Ilan University last Thursday he had referred to inciters and not to the general population.”

        Hotam (also microform) was associated with ʻAl ha-mishmar and probably ceased publication at the same time (1995), although the cataloging records don’t say so.

        Since this quote is before the dawn of the web, library research would probably be required to research it further, preferably by someone who knows Hebrew…”

        So we would appear to have a pretty solid indication that Netanyahu said something of the kind — and a virtually inaccessible source for the exact text.

        I think he probably said it. Bogus quotes are usually pretty obvious.

    • justicewillprevail
      August 1, 2012, 11:47 am

      Same old denial.

    • talknic
      August 3, 2012, 3:33 am

      hophmi August 1, 2012 at 3:30 am

      “Same old nonsense, same fabrications, same lack of sourcing”

      Now you’re resorting lying. How pathetic. Everything at http://wp.me/pDB7k-Yx and http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk is sourced… Not to hearsay but to the OFFICIAL records of the UN.

      You do realize LYING is against the basic tenets of Judaism…

  20. AllenBee
    August 1, 2012, 7:06 pm

    Theodore Herzl died in 1904.

    It is ludicrous to associate the founding of Israel with the Holocaust.
    —-
    The perpetuation of statements like these:

    “[A German court’s ruling on circumcision is the ] ‘Worst Attack on Jewish Life Since the Holocaust’

    and

    Conference of European Rabbis President Pinchas Goldschmidt: [The German court ruling on circumcision is] “An existential question for the Jewish community in Germany.”

    and

    “If the ruling is allowed to stand, the group’s president warned, “then I don’t see a future for Jews in Germany.”

    force reasonable people who are trying to make sense of what is happening to their world to seriously question whether the “existential threats” that Herzl perceived in the 1890s, and that Rabbi Stephen Wise & Sam Untermyer perceived in 1933, and that Benny Morris wrote of http://www.historynet.com/lashing-back-israel-1947-1948-civil-war.htm

    At stake in this civil war was Israel’s existence, and in the early months the Arabs appeared to be winning. . . .In April 1948, with its back to the wall, the Yishuv (in Hebrew, the Settlement)—as the 630,000-strong Jewish community in Palestine called itself. . . battled mercilessly with the Palestinian Arab militias and overran dozens of Arab villages and towns.

    Iran poses an existential threat to Israel’s security, that has required the strangulation of Iran’s economy, the assassination of Iran’s scientists.

    Hamas poses an existential threat to Israel and must be wiped out — costing the lives of 400 Palestinian children.

    How much more of this sh*t do people like Pinchas Goldschmidt and his Israeli and American counterparts think they can get away with?

  21. MHughes976
    August 2, 2012, 3:39 pm

    The whole idea of Zionism, its essence, its everything, was and is that Jewish people, and they only, had and have a genuine or unconditional right (birthright) to live in the Holy Land. Others may in fact be permitted to live there but only as a result of Jewish generosity. That generosity is of course substantial. But those who claim that they have an unconditional right to be there despite not being Jewish are morally deluded (indeed anti-Semitic) and therefore very dangerous, which means that their exclusion was always and still remains necessary.
    If Zionism is understood any other way it would not justify any idea of a Jewish State.

  22. amigo
    August 3, 2012, 6:14 am

    Begin wrote: “[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state–we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403)

    There are many many such quotes which make it clear that Israel,s leaders never intended to allow a Palestinian State.

    Israel is led by land hungry Zionist racists and bigots who are committing national suicide.

    Go figure.

Leave a Reply