Leaked comments by Mitt Romney that there is no point in the peace process have caused alarm among other Israel supporters that the two-state solution is fading from view. Here are four men who fault Romney in part out of fear for what this means for Israel.
David Miliband, former British foreign secretary, in the Guardian:
“Leaders across the world must not lose interest,” he warns. “The fact that Palestine is not in the headlines does not mean it can be forgotten. We know there can be no justice in the Middle East without a Palestinian state. But there can be no security in the Middle East without a Palestinian state. The crowds on the streets may not be chanting about Palestine, but they have not given up in their hearts and heads.”
Dennis Ross and Alan Dershowitz in the Jerusalem Post. Note Dershowitz’s new realist stance:
They… took issue with Republican presidential challenger Mitt Romney’s recently uncovered statements at a closed-door fund-raiser in May about the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, where he said he doesn’t see much potential for a two-state solution.
…“If you create an impression that everything’s hopeless, you’re going to find you’re not going to be able to sustain stability,” Ross [said by phone]… “Frustration is going to build.”
“We need a president who tries even harder in light of the difficulties to bring about a peace process,” said Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz, also speaking to the Post by phone. “The main beneficiary of a two-state solution would be Israel.”
Uri Avnery’s latest column, springing from Romney statement:
There are two peoples living in this country.
Neither of the two will go away. They are here to stay.
While the Arab Palestinians living in the country are still a minority, they will constitute the majority quite soon.
Both peoples are intensely nationalistic.
The two peoples have different cultures, languages, religions, historic narratives, social structures, standards of living. At present, after some 130 years of continuous conflict, there is intense hatred between them.
The possibility that these two peoples could live peacefully in one state, serving in the same army and police, paying the same taxes and abiding by the same laws enacted by the same common parliament, is nil.
The possibility that these two peoples could live peacefully side-by-side in two states, each with its own flag and its own elected government (and its own soccer team), does exist.
“Note Dershowitz’s new realist stance:”
Dershowitz has long supported the two-state solution. This is not new.
Dershowitz has finally perceived that if they don’t push for an actual two-state solution (that, imho, is a no-state solution), it’s likely that in a short while there won’t be any State of Israel. Brilliant.
Yup.
In the past, two state to Dershowitz meant ‘no state, so Israel takes more land’.
Now, two state probably means finding some kind of guilded moral justification to shoving palestinians on bantustans, restricting movement to within those regions, controlling all functions related to natural resource management (land, air, sea), and still denying them the right to vote because ‘technically they are a different country’. Lets push to ensure that this alternative is never realized because it is the legalization of the current situation with no true justice.
Whatever Dershowitz is for, I’m against. I still recall celebrating when the restaurant he owned in Harvard Square went out of business.
Spoken like someone who wants to split the technicalities. Define ‘two-state solution’.
Dershowitz supports a 2 state solution where Israel creates a series of bantustans. Finkelstein, on Democracy now many years ago, clearly called him out on this; he forced Dershowitz to clarify that his support for 2 states lies on whatever vague notion of 2 states Israel wants.
A 2 state solution on the 1967 lines with East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine would be, quite literally, an anathema to him.
Dershowitz and companies “support” of a two-state solution (of course they likely mean an Israeli controlled two-state solution i.e. one that is not in line with international law that calls for any end of the 1967 occupation and a Zionist driven “solution” where illegal Israeli settlements especially around Jerusalem will be allowed to remain in some fantastical “land swap” in the Negev. i.e. rather than just the straight forward clear international legal consensus of a total Israeli occupation withdrawal to the 1948 borders entirely) comes quite ironically because they know (and serious Israeli thinkers know as well) that without a two-state solution (barring another Nakba, that hopefully would not be possible both because of Palestinian resistance and defiance and hopefully because today’s international community wouldn’t allow something like that to occur now, again that is a HOPE) Palestinians will likely be the solid majority from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea (not even getting into the Palestinian refugee population outside Palestine/Israel, that obviously swings the demographics even more in favor of the Palestinians) and to the Zionists this means the “end of Israel” because it will no longer be a “Jewish state”.
Putting aside that the whole idea of a “Jewish state” in the case of modern day Israel is quite an intriguing contradiction of trying to define “who is a Jew?”; as others have noted quite similar to old “special” American issues, in the Jim Crow South in particular over “who was white?” link to counterpunch.org
This interesting contradiction in dogma is especially the case since Israel is not ruled by any form of rabbinic halakha and doesn’t even seriously try to claim to be ruling by “Torah law”; other than the outlawing of civil marriages and some token gestures such as shutting down some public transportation during the sabbath which according to the Jewish Bible is a capital offense if one is caught violating the sabbath, whereas the modern Israeli state basing heavily on European laws doesn’t have the death penalty at all. With the death penalty being something CLEARLY called for in the Jewish Bible for a WIDE range of things! link to rationalwiki.org
That has led, as some have noted, a famous humorous quip by many secular Israelis (playing with Zionist dogma itself) that “God doesn’t exist, and he gave us this land!”. So basically one is left with a interpretation of who is a “Jew” based on supposed “descent”, when Jews like all people are completely diverse and of all various different kinds of mixed backgrounds (i.e. as all humans are!) so it would be a little like someone claiming to have an Islamic state not ruled by some interpretation of Sharīʿah law but rather by supposed “Islamic descent”.
Israel has never made a real peace offering that would allow Palestinians to have complete self-determination without their interference or control. No maps are ever shown by supporters of of a 2ss, because such maps would belie that description: that offer would hack Palestinian land into unviable Israeli -controlled Bantustans. No one would accept such conditions imposed on their country.
While simulataneoysly supporting the settlements that make a 2ss impossible.
How odd of God to choose — Romney! And here we have The Dersh urging Obama to get with the process (called “peace process”) (which process is supposed, one presumes, to process — chopped meat?). But still.
OK, from my mouth to God’s ear: urge AIPAC to allow Obama to start talking about the illegalities of the settlers and the settlements. And, on November 7, to demand that Israel remove both. And the wall. And to urge EU and all other states to join him in the demand. and to instruct Susan Rice (or her successor) to vote for the resolution — with teeth. Oh yes, and kisses to Bibi.
Dershowitz got what he wanted. He got 750,000 settlers in YESHA
It’s a bit late now to start whining.
The case for Israel – he never understood it.
Avnery is disappointing
“The possibility that these two peoples could live peacefully in one state, serving in the same army and police, paying the same taxes and abiding by the same laws enacted by the same common parliament, is nil.”
Why?
He should have said “the possibility that Israeli Jews give up their privileges and economic status will only be realised when they have no other choice”.
“Avnery is disappointing “The possibility … [of] one state … is nil.” Why?”
His reasons are quoted above: “Both peoples are intensely nationalistic … have different cultures … there is intense hatred between them.” And in his article at
link to counterpunch.org
he adds, “study the history of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Cyprus, Czechoslovakia, Sudan, and the present situation of the French in Canada, Scots in Britain, Flemish in Belgium and Basques and Catalans in Spain,” and suggests that “co-existence can take different forms: from a loose confederation with open borders and free movement to closer forms of evolving structures, like the European Union.”
His reasoning for advocating the internationally-recognized 2ss (not Israel’s Bantustan version) is essentially the same as that of Chomsky.
What do Israel, Scotland, Cyprus, Sudan and Canada have in common?
British empire.
A demilitarised Jewish population in Erez Israel would cop on very quickly. They have no choice but to live with the Palestinians. They really should have done their homework before deciding to establish a polity in the Middle East.
And why are Israeli Jews hated ? Might it have anything to do with how they treat non Jews ?
Right! And do not forget Pakistan. Wherever the British empire went, it left behind conflict and bitterness.
And I also agree with what seafroid said above in response to Avnery.
“A demilitarised Jewish population in Erez Israel would cop on very quickly. ” And, short of an invasion, who’s gonna demilitarize a conventional and nuclear power like Israel? Israel will probably use its nukes before allowing its own dismantling.
Chomsky’s arguments regarding the 2ss as a path towards the 1ss are stated in this interview from last year at min 35 of the video:
link to youtube.com
Barat did another interview w/ him a couple of year ago discussing related topics more generally:
link to youtube.com
that is where my sentiments fall to: 2SS now with a path (which may take anywhere from 1 generation to many more generations) back to 1SS.
That said I wouldn’t oppose 1 state solution…I’d welcome both options (2SS w/ East Jer and 1967 or 1 SS with equal rights for all)
Sure, but the 2SS that Avnery is talking about is a far cry from what Dershowitz is talking about….lets not conflate the two.
Miliband- reminds me of Fairuz singing “Zahrat al Mada’en” in the late 60s- “the world settled for war” is one of the lines . Fairuz was right. Miliband backed the Iraq war but war in 67 and 03 only made things more complicated.
link to youtube.com
at 4:46
And the rules of justice never changed. Israel has shot itself in the foot. It isn’t Jewish land. Erez Israel hashlemah is bullshit. Jewish Hebron is bullshit.
Bibi recruited Romney way back in their college days and now the Bibi faction strongly seeks to compel a Romney victory, but more level heads among the Lobby realize that while a lackey can be useful and brainless lackey might be dangerous
It’s always interesting to watch the sharp divide between those who genuinely support Israel and fear too disastrous a path, and those who “support” Israel mainly as an means to an end (whether that end by Armageddon, furthering American dominance in the Middle East, or simply maintaing the “clash of civilizations” worldview). Note that the neocons and the Christianists aren’t bothered by Romney’s statement in the slightest. They’re happy with any position that requires Israel to be permanently at war.
BillM says: “It’s always interesting to watch the sharp divide between those who genuinely support Israel and fear too disastrous a path, and those who “support” Israel mainly as an means to an end…”
Yeah. Back when I was considerably less radicalized on the issue than I am now, I used to warn Israel against playing to the crowd. There are a whole lot of people urging behavior on Israel that no doubt they find intensely gratifying to watch but isn’t exactly in Israel’s best interest.
Of course, now I’ve switched. I dread talk of the ‘two-state solution’ — but take solace in the fact that Israel’s about as likely to accede to it as Frenchmen are to take the pledge. They’re safely embarked on their raft, and drifting rapidly towards the falls…
“…“If you create an impression that everything’s hopeless, you’re going to find you’re not going to be able to sustain stability,” Ross [said by phone]… “Frustration is going to build.””
Could there be a clearer expression of the aims of the “peace-processors”?
Panic on the streets of punditstan …
I wonder to myself , will Israel feel the same again
link to youtube.com
Avnery is a joke really. He doesn’t want the Palestinians to have the same rights as he has. Says there should be 2 states.
Like a patient with advanced diabetes who decides he is going to exercise and go back to his weight of 40 years ago.
The Serbia Kosovo analogy is appropriate Faced with demographic realities don’t expect Israelis to moderate, the next Intifada will be met with Serbian-like reprisals including forced transfer. Undertaken under the cover of global American flag burning, by Islamists’, there will be a huge percentage of the European and American populations who would like their governments to do the same: ethnic cleansing, population transfer, family deportations, labor camps for those who resist.
And when it happens, all the good liberals who proposed a one state solution , a united Yugoslavia, will feign moral outrage, but secretly welcome the Jack Boot solution to the Arab Problem in Palestine.
Israel gets 30% of its oil from Azerbaijan. The Azeris are Shia Muslims. Jerusalem is also their city.
If Israel ethnically cleansed the Palestinians a very unfortunate precedent would be set that would mean that Israel had signed the death warrant for the Jewish presence in the Levant .
Israel has to wean itself off Zionism before it is too late.
Romney is one crazy sonofab*tch. And that b**ch…(I forgot the rest).
Sorry I couldn’t help myself. lol
YoungMassJew says: “Romney is one crazy sonofab*tch. And that b**ch…(I forgot the rest).
Sorry I couldn’t help myself. lol”
Well, happily, that crazy sonofabitch seems to have just committed suicide. The Colin poll keeps finding previously uncommitted people who are now quite sure that they don’t want Romney to be president.
So let Israel be identified with him. Good thing. In six weeks, they can go down together. In fact, I’m kinda hoping Adelson insists on using his millions to make the equation crystal clear in people’s minds. Romney = Israel = war.
Uri Avnery …….. is the Israeli Prophet, always was, always criticized Israel’s policy toward the Palestinians, always moral, always humanist, always liberal, always pro-Palestinian, for a long time a non Zionist and always realist..
You can not accept what he writes, as you don’t have a zillion % of insight to the issue as he has.
If he came to this conclusion after all his long history of fighting for the rights of the Palestinians and the state of Israel…… you are just a joke to even to consider taking you sinuously.
Phil Weiss……. why not argue with Avnery….. I am sure you will get some sense.
Kosovo and Bosnia are wards of the EU. Neither is remotely capable of independence. Both are dependent on EU funding for day to day administration.
Europe isn’t going to pay for Judaism’s Palestinian problem. Not when Spain and Greece are being crucified by the financial markets.
Avnery insists on a solution that Israel has strangled. His time has passed.
And you say,
“My children weren’t the same”
“My children’s children they’re the ones to blame”
And you say,
“In my day we were better behaved”
But it’s not your day no more…
link to youtube.com
Avnery fought in 1948. That means he was an active member of the community that was responsible for the Nakba. And yet the best-selling book he wrote on his war experience is silent on the subject. Although he has played a relatively progressive role in Israeli politics, he has never faced up to the Nakba and its moral and political implications. But precisely that is the key to reconciliation with the Palestinians. That is the crucial difference between Avnery and (for instance) Ilan Pappe.
Stephen Shenfield…. were are you taking your information ???
Before you jump into ignorant conclutions (I can understand your type that you prefer the Anti Zionist Ilan Pape and not Uri Avneri)
Did you read the Second Nakba by Uri Avneri….
So before you make your stupid assumptions, get some info.
And Sure Mr. Weiss accept your words as god words, no wonder why ??
@ Stephen Shenfield: Very well said.
Blake “@ Stephen Shenfield: Very well said.”….. about what.
Ignorance…… Zero knowledge……
Stephen Shenfield did you read the Draft of Gush Shalom…… or “Asking for forgiveness” by Uri Avneri ????
I don’t think so, as you would see how many times he refers to the Nakba.
ignorants like you, just makes it clear, that you are looking only for those who spew on Israel and want its end.
People like Avneri that fights all their life for peace and understanding with the Palestinians are your worse enemy, since he is the one that breaks down your hate agenda story regarding Israel.
No wonder Mr. Wiess thanks you for your comments.
Clearly an anti-Zionist is someone who has a firm sense of justice then (like Ilan Pappe).
Blake……
Very well said, because that’s what your ignorant mind goes for.
I bet if he wrote that Avneri is a racist fascist, you would go for it too.
Well looks like you all have something in common.
Bring the orchestra that spews Israel
And you will all be cheer leaders.
Blake…… Avneri is known to be an AntiZionist…… so now he is OK for you I guess.
yrn: “Blake… Avneri is known to be an AntiZionist…… so now he is OK for you I guess.”
Whether or not that’s the case for Blake I don’t know — but maybe it should be.
The Zionists don’t worry about why anyone’s in bed with them. Whether it’s because of Millennial Christian fantasies, or a desire to suck up to America, or raving bigotry, or just the good ol’ dollar, it works, and they’ll take it, and they’ll even pretend to like you. Evangelicals, South Africans, piss-ant dictatorships that need to get on Uncle Sam’s good side — it all works.
The big tent. Come one, come all. Maybe those of us opposing Israel could learn from it. Quit worrying about relatively minor ideological quibbles. If someone wants to help us push the wagon up the next hill, let them. We’ll worry about whether Jesus is actually going to come and make all Jews Christians when we get to that point.
Oop we have a live one. yrn, Seeking justice is but a noble cause.
“… you are just a joke to even to consider taking you sinuously.”
— yrn (in reply to seafoid, I think)
Now, now… haven’t you been paying attention to Maureen Dowd’s predicament? Comparisons to slithering reptiles are decidedly anti-semitic.
“tear-stained uzi ” Look at the comments Seafoid replied to my comment……
I read some of Seafoid comments, he may fool you, but playing an “Ex Israeli Jew” dosen’t work for me.
Is he afraid to be exposed as a Muslim, who spews about Jews and Israel.
Serpents haven’t always had to slither. The first serpent had legs, but God sliced them off as punishment for subversive behavior in the Garden of Eden.
thank you Stephen. a gem
At least Romney is free of the Original Sin. No apples of knowledge in his diet.