Five Palestinians bodies recovered from tunnel bombing after Israeli court ignores emergency rescue petition

Israel/Palestine
on 234 Comments

Israeli authorities announced on Sunday evening that Israeli forces recovered the bodies of five missing Palestinians who had been trapped, without access to rescue crews, in a tunnel bombed by Israeli forces on Oct. 30.

A total of 12 Gazans were killed, and 12 more injured in this most recent attack on Gaza’s tunnel infrastructure.

Official Palestinian medical crews attempted to get permission to safely enter Israel’s “buffer zone,” in Gaza in order to try and rescue the five who were reported missing in the bombing, but were unable to get permission to enter. The “buffer zone” is a 300 meter area stretching along the Gaza side of the Israeli-Gaza border, which routinely comes under Israeli military fire and is prohibited to Palestinians.

While the Islamic Jihad movement, of which some of the dead were associated with, announced the death of the first five two days after the bombing, there was still standing hope that some of the people in the tunnel could have been alive, since no remains had been unearthed. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad initially sent in an unofficial rescue crew, local media reported, but the team was killed in a second explosion of the tunnel, which brought the death toll to 12.

After the bombing Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, and the Gaza-based Al Mezan Center for Human Rights initially filed a petition demanding official Palestinian emergency responders be allowed to carry out a rescue mission in the buffer zone. The petition was filed with the Israeli Supreme Court on Nov. 2 on behalf of Hassan Abdel Jalil Sbahi, the father of one of the then-missing people in the tunnel.

While Adalah Attorney Muna Haddad wrote in the Supreme Court petition that an urgent hearing should have been held, as “people’s lives are at stake,” the petition for the emergency rescue was left unanswered for four days. Only on Sunday, when Israeli forces announced five dead bodies had been recovered from the rubble, did Adalah and Al Mezan withdraw the request.

Haddad said preventing rescue crews from entering the bombed area when people were known to be trapped in rubble, could constitute a war crime.

“Preventing the location and rescue of missing persons in the area currently under Israeli military control is a blatantly illegal policy,” which he said is “contrary to the laws of war and humanitarian law which are anchored in the Geneva Conventions.”

The Gaza Strip has been under siege by both Israel and Egypt since 2007, when the Hamas movement won Palestinian elections. With Israel controlling even its maritime borders, tunneling underground from the Gaza Strip to Egypt and Israel are one of the main avenues for the movement of goods, both for household products, electronics and everyday needs, as well as weapons for the Hamas government’s armed wing.

Both Israel and Egypt consistently bomb and disrupt the illegal tunnel network, killing scores of civilian workers and political fighters in the process.

Now that the five missing Gazan’s have been announced dead, Adalah is concerned Israeli authorities may attempt to withhold the bodies of the five as leverage.

In a statement announcing the withdrawal of the group’s petition, Adalah stated “The holding of bodies contradicts the principles of international humanitarian law. Bodies of individuals who are killed during situations of conflict must be returned to their families for burial with dignity. international humanitarian law prohibits using bodies for political purposes or as bargaining chips.”

Israel has not announced whether the five bodies will be returned to their families, but the Israeli government routinely withholds the bodies of Palestinians affiliated with the Hamas organization.

In a 2016 article, Haaretz reported that Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman “thoroughly opposed the handing over of bodies,” reportedly saying in a closed meeting that he believed withholding Palestinian remains would act as a deterrent for future attacks.

During the same meeting, a representative of the Israeli army, Maj. Gen. Nitzan Alon, the army’s Operations Directorate head, called for the practice to end, saying that in the army’s opinion, withholding Palestinian remains increases tensions and doesn’t deter potential attacks. In fact, Alon said the opinion of the Israeli army is that withholding remain could have the opposite effect, leading to more attacks.

About Sheren Khalel

Sheren Khalel is a freelance multimedia journalist who works out of Israel, Palestine and Jordan. She focuses on human rights, women's issues and the Palestine/Israel conflict. Khalel formerly worked for Ma'an News Agency in Bethlehem, and is currently based in Ramallah and Jerusalem. You can follow her on Twitter at @Sherenk.

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234 Responses

  1. eljay
    November 6, 2017, 2:40 pm

    Israeli authorities announced on Sunday evening that Israeli forces recovered the bodies of five missing Palestinians who had been trapped, without access to rescue crews, in a tunnel bombed by Israeli forces on Oct. 30. …

    Official Palestinian medical crews attempted to get permission to safely enter Israel’s “buffer zone,” in Gaza in order to try and rescue the five who were reported missing in the bombing, but were unable to get permission to enter. The “buffer zone” is a 300 meter area stretching along the Gaza side of the Israeli-Gaza border, which routinely comes under Israeli military fire and is prohibited to Palestinians. …

    Haddad said preventing rescue crews from entering the bombed area when people were known to be trapped in rubble, could constitute a war crime. …

    But it’s just a tiny little war crime, committed in the world’s most moral way by the world’s most moral army of the world’s only “Jewish State”.

    It’s just like when that wounded and incapacitated man MooslimAyrab terrrrrr was summarily executed by a Jewish Israeli hero.

    Anyway, Israel has gay parades and cherry tomatoes.

  2. yonah fredman
    November 6, 2017, 3:41 pm

    “The Gaza Strip has been under siege by both Israel and Egypt since 2007, when the Hamas movement won Palestinian elections.”

    Seems to me this is somewhere between erroneous and untruthful.

    The elections were held in 2006 and the siege began after Hamas violently ejected the PLO from the Gaza strip exerting sole control over the strip due to their military actions, not as the duly elected Palestine Authority Legislative representatives but due to their military actions.

    Here is how wikipedia reports it in summary:

    When Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election, 2006, Palestinian political party Fatah refused to join the proposed coalition, until a short-lived unity government agreement was brokered by Saudi Arabia. When this collapsed under joint Israeli and United States pressure, the Palestinian Authority instituted a non-Hamas government in the West Bank while Hamas formed a government on its own in Gaza.[23] Further economic sanctions were imposed by Israel and the European Quartet against Hamas. A brief civil war between the two groups had broken out in Gaza when, apparently under a U.S.-backed plan, Fatah contested Hamas’s administration. Hamas emerged the victor and expelled Fatah-allied officials and members of the PA’s security apparatus from the Strip,[24][25] and has remained the sole governing power in Gaza since that date.[23]

    • Keith
      November 7, 2017, 11:16 am

      YONAH FREDMAN- “The elections were held in 2006 and the siege began after Hamas violently ejected the PLO from the Gaza strip exerting sole control over the strip due to their military actions, not as the duly elected Palestine Authority Legislative representatives but due to their military actions.”

      Jeez, yet another Wikipedia scholar! Wikipedia tends to share your bias, which you misinterpret in any event. Forget Wiki, stick with Noam! Not that the facts will actually sway you. A quote:

      “A few weeks after Israeli troops withdrew, leaving the occupation intact, Palestinians committed a major crime. In January 2006, they voted the wrong way in a carefully monitored free election, handing control of the Parliament to Hamas.
      ….
      The crime of the Palestinians in January 2006 was punished at once. The US and Israel, with Europe shamefully trailing behind, imposed harsh sanctions on the errant population and Israel stepped up its violence. By June, when the attacks sharply escalated, Israel had already fired more than 7700 [155 mm] shells at northern Gaza.

      The US and Israel quickly initiated plans for a military coup to overthrow the elected government. When Hamas had the effrontery to foil the plans, the Israeli assaults and the siege became far more severe, justified by the claim that Hamas had taken over the Gaza Strip by force – which is not entirely false, though something rather crucial is omitted.” (Noam Chomsky) http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/palestinian-resistance-occupation/#comment-700235

  3. Brewer
    November 6, 2017, 4:06 pm

    “Tunnels played a crucial role in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Tunnels were used to bring in food and weapons. Without tunnels, the earlier death rate in the ghetto from malnutrition and consequent disease would likely have been higher. In the end, many of the fighters used the tunnels to escape the fate of those who did not fight: transit to a death camp.

    The various groups in Gaza did not build tunnels because they like to dig. They were dug for the same reasons the Jews had in Warsaw: to get supplies. And both some of the Jews and some of the Palestinians used the tunnels to get the weapons they needed to fight the army of the nation that had put them in their respective ghettos.”
    http://www.iiipublishing.com/blog/2014/07/blog_07_26_2014.html

    • aloeste
      November 9, 2017, 1:16 pm

      they are there for one reason only—to kill jews . there are no ‘supplies’ on the jewish side of their border. if they reveal the location of all tunnels, there woudl be no deaths. i don’t know why there isn’t a 100 meter moat around the border….

      • eljay
        November 9, 2017, 1:58 pm

        || aloeste: they are there for one reason only—to kill jews . … ||

        Tunnels don’t kill Jews.

        || … there are no ‘supplies’ on the jewish side of their border. … ||

        What is a “Jewish side” of a border?

        || … i don’t know why there isn’t a 100 meter moat around the border…. ||

        Feel free to build one on Israel’s side of its / Partition borders. You can dress it up with some shrubbery placed at different heights for a two-level effect with a path down the middle.

      • Mooser
        November 9, 2017, 7:29 pm

        .” i don’t know why there isn’t a 100 meter moat around the border….”

        And walls, with gates!

      • gamal
        November 9, 2017, 8:35 pm

        ” i don’t know why there isn’t a 100 meter moat around the border….”

        waters a bit of an issue in our region, sea water poisons the land and aquifers and you can’t have any of our wells we need them for the weed fields, kissed by the sun, in Sinai they make a red sticky hash that is sublime, could build a wall from the bails, not sure how long it would last but when its gone everyone will be mellow and warm, then we eat.

        https://youtu.be/DaDmkaPCUBs

      • Brewer
        November 10, 2017, 3:32 am

        @loeste
        “they are there for one reason only—to kill jews “
        Shockingly inefficient then.
        Tunnelers have taken a toll of about one Israeli soldier per year. That is about one twentieth the annual suicide rate in the IDF. The primary cause of death in that outfit:
        http://www.ibtimes.com/suicide-rates-more-doubled-among-soldiers-serving-israel-defense-forces-1772338

  4. amigo
    November 6, 2017, 4:16 pm

    Seems to me this is somewhere between erroneous and untruthful.YF

    ” The elections were held in 2006 and the siege began after Hamas violently ejected the PLO from the Gaza strip exerting sole control over the strip due to their military actions, not as the duly elected Palestine Authority Legislative representatives but due to their military actions.”

    Here is how wikipedia reports it in summary:

    ” When Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election, 2006, Palestinian political party Fatah refused to join the proposed coalition, until a short-lived unity government agreement was brokered by Saudi Arabia. When this collapsed under joint Israeli and United States pressure, the Palestinian Authority instituted a non-Hamas government in the West Bank while Hamas formed a government on its own in Gaza.[23] Further economic sanctions were imposed by Israel and the European Quartet against Hamas. A brief civil war between the two groups had broken out in Gaza when, apparently under a U.S.-backed plan, Fatah contested Hamas’s administration. Hamas emerged the victor and expelled Fatah-allied officials and members of the PA’s security apparatus from the Strip,[24][25] and has remained the sole governing power in Gaza since that date.”

    Yonah , you erroneously and untruthfully forgot to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    “Israeli obstruction

    In the lead-up to the elections, Israel launched on 26 September 2005 a campaign of arrest against PLC members. 450 members of Hamas were detained, mostly involved in the 2006 PLC elections. The majority of them were kept in administrative detention for different periods.[16] In the election period, 15 PLC members were captured and held as political prisoners.[17]

    During the elections, the Israeli authorities banned the candidates from holding election campaigns inside Jerusalem. Rallies and public meetings were prohibited. Also, the Jerusalem identity cards of some PLC members were revoked.[18] The Carter Center, which monitored the elections, criticised the detentions of persons who “are guilty of nothing more than winning a parliamentary seat in an open and honest election”.[19]”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

    • Brewer
      November 6, 2017, 6:59 pm

      Vanity Fair had the full story:
      “After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.”
      https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804

    • yonah fredman
      November 7, 2017, 2:42 am

      A true pen wielder would be able to sum it up in thirty words or less. After Hamas won legislative elections in 2006, tension between Fatah and Hamas boiled over in violence, with a Hamas triumph in that battle in June of 2007.

      They have controlled Gaza ever since. Gaza does not control the seas beyond its immediate shore and it has undergone three attacks in the intervening 10 years. There been zero elections held in gaza since the takeover by Hamas. Gaza, led by Hamas, has undergone a siege imposed by two countries: primarily Israel, but also particularly since the fall of Morsi, Egypt under Sissi as well. It is the Sissi Egyptian regime that brought about the current Fatah Hamas rapprochement.

      There are major happenings in the Middle East these days. A realignment of power in Saudi Arabia? Abbas heading to Saudi Arabia? Hariri’s resignation in Lebanon. In Yemen, a proxy of Iran fires missile/s at Saudi Arabia. Seems to be some major movement.

    • Jack Green
      November 10, 2017, 11:43 am

      Brewer

      For twelve years we have been building these tunnels and waiting for the right moment, when we were trained and ready. We decided that the time would be this year on Rosh Hashanah, 2014. We chose Rosh Hashanah because most of the soldiers get leave to go home and there aren’t a lot on guard duty, and it’s a two-day holiday. All of Hamas would go through the tunnels we’ve built over twelve years and capture Israel.

      Bennett, Ramon. Gaza!: The Fallout From Premeditated Barbarianism (Kindle Locations 1070-1073). Kindle Edition.

      • Mooser
        November 10, 2017, 12:04 pm

        “All of Hamas would go through the tunnels we’ve built over twelve years and capture Israel.”

        Whew! And that was just about to happen. I would call that a close shave, but I know how you guys feel about that.

      • Mooser
        November 10, 2017, 12:20 pm

        “All of Hamas would go through the tunnels we’ve built over twelve years and capture Israel.”

        As the first Hamas men came through the tunnel, one at a time, the Israelis cried, “We can’t stop them, these are the first of hundreds of thousands of soldiers, we are outnumbered!” and panicked.

      • Brewer
        November 10, 2017, 4:27 pm

        Well I mean…., golly….., gee, I don’t know what to say Jack.
        A quote from an unnamed, purportedly Hamas operative boasting of “capturing Israel” on Rosh Hannah 2014 in a book authored by a loony fundamentalist Christian Zionist pommy twat whose end-times scribblings explain “the logistics of understanding God’s plan for Israel”.
        Impressive.
        I must have missed reporting of the 2014 Rosh Hannah attack Jack. Apart from a few patently absurd echo-chamber reports of “Hamas plans” citing an “unnamed source” around that time, tell us what happened. How many civilians have been killed using tunnels? How many IDF soldiers?

        If you truly are frightened by unnamed sources who describe “Hamas plans”, try Mooser’s remedy. He reckons Ziocaine is good for Pre-traumatic Stress Disorder.

      • Jack Green
        November 10, 2017, 9:17 pm

        Mooser

        You are assuming that the Israelis knew where all the exits were for the tunnels & had the IDF at those exits to welcome the terrorists.

      • oldgeezer
        November 10, 2017, 11:11 pm

        @jack

        Don’t pretend to be stupid (you do a great job though). The tunnels can be seen from satellite by the US and Israel. I am sure by others. IsraelI officials have stated this. This capability has been around for a number of years.

        This was simply an attempt to fabricate another lawn mowing exercise of unarmed civilians.

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 12:21 pm

        “…try Mooser’s remedy.”

        Oh, that’ll work for some stuff, but “Maggy’s Homemade Remedy” is a panacea, effective from arm-pit to pancreas.

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 1:05 pm

        “You are assuming that the Israelis knew where all the exits were for the tunnels & had the IDF at those exits to welcome the terrorists.”

        Sorry, I had forgotten how backwards Israel is, and how void-detecting technology in use all over the world for decades is not available to Israel.

        Maybe you could put your ear to the ground and listen for the tanks, trucks, armored personnel carriers and fighter planes coming through the tunnels to attack Israel. Also, you might send an IDF guy to look at any unusual holes in the ground which turn up suddenly.

  5. Kay24
    November 6, 2017, 4:45 pm

    Well, if they were ISIS terrorists, they would have rescued them, and given them plenty of TLC and comfort. Typical zionist double standards.

  6. Ossinev
    November 6, 2017, 5:27 pm

    @Eljay
    “Anyway, Israel has gay parades and cherry tomatoes”
    You forgot to mention it`s Kosher Intel Chips

    • Jack Green
      November 6, 2017, 7:29 pm

      Ossinev

      “… a study published by the United Nations showed “that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

      American & British armed forces have been studying the Israelis to learn how to lower casualties among innocent civilians in the wars they are fighting.

      • amigo
        November 6, 2017, 7:38 pm

        Jacko. You posted this same trollope on oct 26th.It didn.t work then and it wont work this time.

        Why do you keep posting the same bs on a weekly basis .Is that all hasbara central has to offer.

      • amigo
        November 6, 2017, 7:53 pm

        Jacko.I now recall pointing out to you that the link you provided made no such claim as shown in your above post.i asked why you keep posting the same lies and who is feeding them to you.
        I received no reply and here you are again posting the same lie just a week later.

        Doesn.t it bother you being shown up as a serial liar.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 6, 2017, 8:02 pm

        Jack:

        “American & British armed forces have been studying the Israelis to learn how to lower casualties among innocent civilians in the wars they are fighting..”

        Where is there a war between Israel and the Palestinians??

        If I have understood correctly, war is something which happens between two or more parties with somekind of an army. So where is the war, when you have fully armed soldiers against unarmed women and children, who sometimes might throw stones and f.ex. air force and advanced cyber techniques against some “miserable” rockets??

        When the other party is overwhelming in its power and the other party fully controlled by them, there is no war going on there. You may use another word for it, but war ain’t the one.

      • eljay
        November 6, 2017, 9:03 pm

        || Ossinev: @Eljay
        “Anyway, Israel has gay parades and cherry tomatoes”
        You forgot to mention it`s Kosher Intel Chips ||

        Well, I’m sure that’s not the only “Jewish State” miracle I overlooked. ;-)

      • eljay
        November 6, 2017, 9:05 pm

        || amigo: Jacko … Doesn.t it bother you being shown up as a serial liar. ||

        It doesn’t seem to bother him being shown up as a serial idiot, so I suspect he’s OK with serial liar.

      • Jack Green
        November 6, 2017, 10:20 pm

        Kaisa of Finland

        The Hamas army is called the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. Estimated strength 40,000-50,000.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades

      • Jack Green
        November 6, 2017, 10:41 pm

        amigo

        Thanks for the correction. I don’t remember where I got the quote.
        I’ll look into it.

      • Mooser
        November 7, 2017, 11:32 am

        “Why do you keep posting the same bs on a weekly basis .Is that all hasbara central has to offer.”

        Because all that Zionists can do is repeat the arguments Zionists use to convince each other.
        The fact that these arguments won’t convince, or will repel not-Zionists never occurs to them.
        That is one heaping helping of solipsism.

  7. Maghlawatan
    November 7, 2017, 2:39 am

    “In a 2016 article, Haaretz reported that Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman “thoroughly opposed the handing over of bodies,” reportedly saying in a closed meeting that he believed withholding Palestinian remains would act as a deterrent for future attacks.”

    There is nothing like a Baal Shem Tov quote to put a bot back in his place.

    “Your fellow man is your mirror. If your own face is clean, the image you perceive will also be flawless. But should you look upon your fellow man and see a blemish, it is your own imperfection that you are encountering – you are being shown what it is that you must correct within yourself.” Baal Shem Tov

    • Brewer
      November 11, 2017, 3:07 am

      Very simple to explain ” the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare”.
      Israel counts every Hamas death as combatant. 90% of Hamas revenue is spent on social services however so the vast majority of Hamas people are teachers, nurses, cleaners, office workers etc.
      This also explains why so much Hasbara is dedicated to branding Hamas as blood drinking terrorists which they are not. 90% of their revenue is spent on social services.

      • Jack Green
        November 11, 2017, 12:19 pm

        Brewer

        If someone works as a doctor 11 months a year, but spends one month a year murdering people, does that mean that he’s not a murderer?

      • Brewer
        November 11, 2017, 2:08 pm

        Jack.
        Most of us try to deal with the real World of deeds and actions, not paranoid fantasies.
        Do you have an example of such a Doctor ?

      • Jack Green
        November 11, 2017, 4:04 pm

        Brewer

        It was a hypothetical.

      • Brewer
        November 11, 2017, 5:36 pm

        You mean like most of the the justifications for massacre given by Israel?

  8. Ossinev
    November 7, 2017, 7:09 am

    @Jack Green
    A) WTF has this got to do with my comment. Sounds like you are simply freeloading on any old comment to use as a Zionist spew bucket
    B) Calling the slaughter of thousands of innocent defenceless civilians including hundreds of children part of an “asymmetric conflict” is truly sick and twisted reasoning. Not the thinking of a normal human being with basic humanitarian values.

    • Jack Green
      November 7, 2017, 9:27 am

      Ossinev

      However, during some operations in Afghanistan, British and US forces adopted some methods developed by the IDF in Gaza. And in November 2014, General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the IDF “went to extraordinary lengths to limit collateral damage and civilian casualties” during the 2014 conflict in Gaza.12

      Ryvchin, Alex. The Anti-Israel Agenda: Inside the Political War on the Jewish State (Page 155). Gefen Publishing House. Kindle Edition.

      • amigo
        November 7, 2017, 11:24 am

        “Alexander (Alex) Ryvchin (born 18 July 1983) is an Australian Jewish writer, advocate, commentator, and lawyer. He was born in Kiev, Ukraine and migrated to Australia as a refugee.[1] He practised law at Mallesons Stephen Jaques in Sydney and Herbert Smith in London before serving as a spokesman for the Zionist Federation UK and being awarded an Israel Research Fellowship.[2] His writing on the Arab–Israeli conflict and Jewish history has been published in numerous international newspapers, including The Australian,[3] The Sydney Morning Herald,[4] The Guardian,[5] The National Post (Canada),[6] and The Jerusalem Post.[7] Ryvchin is a regular columnist for The Spectator.[8]

        Ryvchin is the author of the book, “The Anti-Israel Agenda – inside the political war on the Jewish State” (Gefen Publishing House, 2017), a collaborative work with other prominent thinkers on the Israel-Palestinian conflict including Alan Dershowitz, Colonel Richard Kemp, Hillel Neuer and Professor Alan Johnson.[9]”

        Jacko , you must be joking.

        Ryvchin is a former spokesman or the zionist federation of the UK.
        Dershowitz is a media hack and a zionist apologist whose book , “the case for Israel ” was shown for what it is , an exercise in plagiarism.Finkelstein produced evidence of the word for word inclusion sections of Joan Peters book , “since time immemorial ” , it self an exercise in fantasy and fake history.

        Colonel Kemp is a paid spokesperson who sold his soul to the highest bidder.

        Is this the best you can do.

        Btw , this is the same source you used for your response to me upthread.

        Do you really believe that we believe these lying toads.

      • amigo
        November 7, 2017, 3:01 pm

        More on Herr Kemp, jerry.

        “Former British army officer Colonel Richard Kemp was described by a leading anti-Palestinian lawyer as “one of the Jewish state’s greatest allies” at a conference in Jerusalem last week.

        At that conference, Kemp argued for Israeli impunity from war crimes accusations. He also described himself as a “thug” who liked to fight and had disobeyed army rules of engagement.

        He argued that the laws of wars and the rules of engagement for “democratic armies” should be loosened to allow “maximum possible freedom of action.”

        “As a former commander myself, I liked nothing better than to be given no orders, so I could carry out the mission any way I liked,” he said, speaking at a panel on 5 May.

        He said that “rules of engagement are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools … on many occasions, I have – I say on many, on some occasions – I have disobeyed the rules of engagement.”

        Kemp seemed a star of the show during the two-day “Towards a new law of war” conference. He used his ample platform to advocate for Israel, the US and the UK to be given more freedom to inflict “collateral damage” – a euphemism for killing civilians.”

        Sounds to me as if he was brought in to find ways to increase casualties and deaths not keep them down as you so naeively suggest.Kemp self describes as a thug who rarely obeys orders.

        https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/allow-israel-kill-more-civilians-says-british-colonel

      • Jack Green
        November 7, 2017, 5:54 pm

        amigo

        Evidence that in November 2014, General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, did NOT say that the IDF “went to extraordinary lengths to limit collateral damage and civilian casualties” during the 2014 conflict in Gaza?

      • RoHa
        November 7, 2017, 7:11 pm

        Even if the British and US forces adopted the murderous tactics of the IDF, that does not make the IDF any less evil.

        And since US military doctrine is “obliterate everything”, General Dempsey’s standards for “extraordinary lengths to limit collateral damage and civilian casualties” are likely to be very low. Leaving one brick standing on another probably counts.

      • amigo
        November 8, 2017, 5:21 am

        “Evidence that in November 2014, General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, did NOT say ” jacko

        Jacko , “Evidence that I said he did not say bla bla bla.

        Of course he said it.Why wouldn,t he.He is a shill for Israel as were his political bosse,s , Obama and Kelly and the rest of the zionist cabal in the WH.

        Jacko , this site is for adults ie , not people who believe everything they read –as long as it suppports their narrative.

  9. Ossinev
    November 7, 2017, 1:38 pm

    @Amigo
    “Colonel Kemp is a paid spokesperson who sold his soul to the highest bidder”

    Yup. Listen to the brown tongueing crap which this paid lackey spouts:

    Includes some corkers whoppers and absolute gems. My favourites are Judaism`s “usurpassed moral standards”. Stuff all you Catholics,Anglicans etc = second division. What A F…ing gem.Oh as for corkers “Israel has never started a war”.
    Those nasty Egyptians and the rest of the world were lying through their teeth about Israelis
    bombing of the Egyptian airforce in 1967. That wasn`t “starting a war” – it was accidentally preempting one .The whole bought and paid for performance is riven with corkers too many to single out but I will have a go. “I say this as a professional soldier” = trust me I am a f….ing doctor.

    The bottom line in this disgusting hypocritical Hasbara script is that Israel is the greatest , most moral , most lovable , most compassionate , most desirable , most sexy , most maligned etc etc etc country in the history of the world since since well ever since countries existed. Al; other countries including his own not so beloved UK can never ever catch up with Israel.

    Having said that North Korea may well rapidly catch up and overtake if they offer him enough money.

    What a lying despicable piece of excrement.

    • amigo
      November 7, 2017, 2:17 pm

      0ssinev, Kemp is to zios what trump is to his base ( white racist bigots).

      If I recall correctly , Kemp was a fellow member with David Trimble on a panel set up by the Israeli gov .They never attended the proceedings but made themselves avaivable to sign the report.

      Nice work , if you can stand to look in a mirror.

      • amigo
        November 8, 2017, 6:29 am

        jacko , you need to be de programmed and then educated .

        Read this and then when you are ready for some more facts and not a steady diet of hasbara , I will introduce you to the many many sources that offer facts and not zionist propganda.Can,t pay you a stipend though.

        The rogue nation views opposition to it,s war criminal actions as an act of war.Israel has started every war and each time they did it from outside their self declared borders of 1948.Any Arab army that attacked Israel did so on land outside so called Israel.

        Even Moshe Dayan stated that they , the idf had provoked the Syrians into responding to israeli tanks inching their way into Syrian territory to ignite a war.Ergo it was Israel who started that war.

        BTW , this is a US Gov site.

        https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/lw/97179.htm

      • Jack Green
        November 8, 2017, 9:28 am

        amigo

        The day after the UN Partition Resolution in November 1947, some racist, xenophobic Palestinians started a genocidal war to exterminate the Jews. Haj Amin el-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem – “I declare a holy war, my Muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!”

        The war started with Palestinians attacking a Jewish bus driving on the Coastal Plain near Kfar Sirkin killing five and wounding others. Half an hour later they ambushed a second bus from Hadera, killing two more. Arab snipers attacked Jewish buses in Jerusalem and Haifa.

      • Jack Green
        November 8, 2017, 9:38 am

        amigo

        According to your link, Israel wanted to “retaliate against Egypt over its support for Palestinian commando raids on Israel’s western border during the previous two years.”

        Commando raids are an act of war. Israel has the right to defend itself.

      • amigo
        November 8, 2017, 12:28 pm

        “The day after the UN Partition Resolution in November 1947, some racist, xenophobic Palestinians started bla bla bla .”jacko

        Links jacko—links or some other form of evidence.

        “The war started with Palestinians attacking a Jewish bus driving on the Coastal Plain near Kfar Sirkin killing five and wounding others. Half an hour later they ambushed a second bus from Hadera, killing two more. Arab snipers attacked Jewish buses in Jerusalem and Haifa.” jacko

        Links Jacko—-links or some other form of evidence.

        You have already displayed the ability to post fake links and unsupported claims.ergo , nothing you post can be trusted.

      • Mooser
        November 8, 2017, 1:19 pm

        .” Haj Amin el-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem “

        Didn’t this “Grand Mufti” also suggest the Holocaust to Hitler? Don’t want to leave that off the indictment.–

      • Mooser
        November 8, 2017, 1:29 pm

        “You have already displayed the ability to post fake links and unsupported claims.ergo , nothing you post can be trusted.”

        “Amigo”, they bring the same arguments and same level of argument they use to convince themselves and each other to Mondo.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 8, 2017, 4:06 pm
    • Jack Green
      November 7, 2017, 7:14 pm

      Ossinev

      The 1956 Suez War ended with the proviso that Israel have free passage through the Straits of Tiran. In 1967, Egypt broke the cease fire by closing the Straits so the Six Day War was not a new war, but rather a continuation of the previous war.

      Here are some statements issued before the Six Day War”

      “Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . The mining of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel. Adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel.” – Nasser, May 27, 1967

      “We will not accept any … coexistence with Israel. … Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel …. The war with Israel is in effect since 1948.” – Nasser, May 28, 1967

      “The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.” – Nasser, May, 30, 1967 after signing a defense pact with Jordan’s King Hussein

      “We are now ready to confront Israel …. The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of UNEF, but the … aggression which took place in Palestine … with the collaboration of Britain and the United States.” – Nasser, June 2, 1967

      • amigo
        November 8, 2017, 11:56 am

        jacko , in reply to your attempts above to place all the blame on the Palestinians.

        This is the work of Jewish terrorists.Note the time period –from 1937 to 1948.Incidentally , Israel does not have a right to defend itself when it is occupying someone else,s land .However , those under occupation , have a legal right to oppose their occupiers and that includes attacking their western/eastern or any border and includes shooting their soldiers .

        “1937, March 2 Arabs killed on Bat Yam beach. [12]
        1937, November 14 10 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, (“Black Sunday”) [13][14]
        1938, April 12 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa. [14]
        1938, April 17 1 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa [14]
        1938, May 17 1 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road. [14]
        1938, May 24 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa. [14]
        1938, June 19 18 Arabs killed (9 men, 6 women and 3 children), 24 injured by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Haifa. [15][16][17][18]
        1938, June 23 2 Arabs were killed near Tel Aviv. [14]
        1938, June 26 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa. [14]
        1938, June 27 1 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa. [14]
        1938, July 5 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel Aviv. [14]
        1938, July 5 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. [14]
        1938, July 5 1 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem. [14]
        1938, July 6 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa. More than 60 people were wounded. The toll over two days of riots and reprisals was 33 dead, 111 wounded. [14][19][20][21]
        1938, July 8 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem. [14]
        1938, July 16 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem. [14]
        1938, July 25 43 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. [14][22]
        1938, August 26 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. [14]
        1939, February 27 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem. [23]
        1939, May 29 5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem. [14]
        1939, May 29 5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar ‘Adas. [14]
        1939, June 2 5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem. [14][24]
        1939, June 12 1 British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs killed, during a post office in Jerusalem was bombing [14]
        1939, June 16 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem. [14]
        1939, June 19 20 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa. [14][25]
        1939, June 29 13 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks around Jaffa during a one-hour period. [14][26]
        1939, June 30 1 Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem. [14]
        1939, June 30 2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta. [14]
        1939, July 3 1 Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. [14][27]
        1939, July 4 2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem. [14]
        1939, July 20 1 Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa. [14]
        1939, July 20 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel Aviv. [14]
        1939, July 20 3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot. [14]
        1939, August 27 2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem. [14]
        During the Jewish insurgency (1944–47)
        For more details on this topic, see Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine.
        Date Casualties References
        1944, September 27 Unknown number of casualties, around 150 Irgun members attacked four British police stations [28]
        1944, September 29 1 Senior British police officer of the Criminal Intelligence Department assassinated in Jerusalem. [28]
        1945, November 1 5 locomotives destroyed in Lydda station. Two staff, one soldier and one policeman killed. [29]
        1945, December 27 3 British policemen and 4 Sotho soldiers killed during the bombing of British CID headquarters in Jerusalem; 1 British soldier killed during attack of British army camp in north Tel Aviv [30][31]
        1946, February 22 Destroyed 14 aeroplanes at 5 RAF stations. [32]
        1947, June 18 One Haganah member killed by a booby trap while sealing a tunnel dug by Irgun to blow up the British [33]
        1946, July 22 91 people were killed at the bombing of the King David Hotel (which was the British headquarters), mostly civilians, staff of the hotel or Secretariat,
        41 Arabs, 15-28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian. [34][35][36]
        1946, October 30 2 British guards killed during Gunfire and explosion at Jerusalem Railway Station. [37]
        1946, October 31 Bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured. [38]
        1947, January 12 4 killed in bombing of British headquarters. [39]
        1947, March 1 17 British officers killed, during raid and explosion. [40]
        1947, March 12 1 British soldier killed during the attack on Schneller Camp. [40]
        1947, July 19 4 locations within Haifa are attacked, killing a British constable and injuring 12. [41]
        1947, July 29 2 kidnapped British sergeants hanged. [42]
        1947, August 4 Two Suitcase time-bombs explode in the basement of the Hotel Sacher, Vienna (British Army Headquarters) [43][44]
        1947, August 5 3 British policemen killed in bombing of British Labour Department office in Jerusalem [45]
        1947, August 9 Jewish train engineer killed in Cairo-Haifa train bombing [46]
        1947, August 12 1 British soldier injured in bombing of London-Villach military train outside Tauern tunnel near Mallintz, Austria. A second bomb failed to explode, the two were intended to derail the train over a steep cliff. No injuries from a second explosion outside British camp commandant’s office in Velden. [43][47][48]
        1947, September 26 4 British policemen killed in Irgun bank robbery. [39]
        1947, September 29 10 killed (4 British policemen, 4 Arab policemen and an Arab couple) and 53 injured in Haifa police headquarters bombing by Irgun. One ton of explosives in a barrel was used for the bombing and Irgun said it was done on the first day of Sukkot to avoid Jewish casualties. [39][49][50]
        During the Civil War (1947–48)
        For more details on this topic, see 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine.
        Date Casualties References
        1947, December 11 13 killed in attack on Tireh, near Haifa [51]
        1947, December 12 20 killed, 5 wounded by barrel bomb at Damascus Gate. [52]
        1947, December 13 6 killed, 25 wounded by bombs outside Alhambra Cinema. [53]
        1947, December 13 5 killed, 47 wounded by two bombs at Damascus Gate. [53][54]
        1947, December 13 7 Arabs killed (including two women and two children, 3 and 4 years old) and 7 others seriously wounded (two women and girl of 4 among them) in attack on Yehudiya. 24 Irgun men attacked the village, approaching from Petah Tikva shooting guns, dynamiting houses and throwing grenades. An armored British police car was also fired on. [53][54][55]
        1947, December 16(ca) 10 killed by bomb at Noga Cinema in Jaffa. [56]
        1947, December 29 Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs wounded when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi at Jerusalem’s Damascus Gate. [39][57][58]
        1947, December 30 6 Arabs killed and, 42 injured by grenades at Haifa refinery, precipitating the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre, which led to the Balad al-Shaykh massacre. [59]
        1948, January 1 2 Arabs killed and 9 injured by shooting attack on cafe in Jaffa. [60]
        1948, January 5 14 Arabs killed and 19 injured by truck bomb outside the 3-storey ‘Serrani’, Jaffa’s built Ottoman Town Hall [61]
        1948, January 7 20 Arabs killed by bomb at Jaffa Gate. [62][63]
        1948, February 10 7 Arabs killed near Ras el Ain after selling cows in Tel Aviv [64]
        1948, February 18 12 Arabs killed and 43 wounded at a marketplace in Ramla [65]
        1948, March 1 20 Britons killed and 30 wounded in the Bevingrad Officers Club bombing [66]
        1948, April 9-April 11 107-120 Arabs killed and massacred (the estimate generally accepted by scholars, instead the first announced number of 254) during and after the battle at the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, by 132 Irgun and 60 Lehi fighters. [67][68][69][70][71]
        1948, April 6 7 British soldiers, including Commanding Officer, killed during an arms raid on Pardes Hanna Army camp.

        Quiet a list –eh jacko.And that is just one of the Jewish terrorist groups.

        You will find it here.Note how we usually provide links , unlike dishonest zionist apologists.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_operations

      • Jack Green
        November 8, 2017, 5:37 pm

        amigo

        Jewish terrorism arose as self-defense against Palestinian terrorism.
        Palestinians murdered Jews in 1920, 1921 & 1929. Note the time period. Palestinian terrorism came before Jewish terrorism.

        The occupied have no right to kill the occupiers when then occupation is the result of the aggression of the occupied. Palestinians were the aggressors so they have no right to murder the occupiers.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 8, 2017, 6:17 pm

        “Jewish terrorism arose as self-defense against Palestinian terrorism.
        Palestinians murdered Jews in 1920, 1921 & 1929. Note the time period. Palestinian terrorism came before Jewish terrorism.

        The occupied have no right to kill the occupiers when then occupation is the result of the aggression of the occupied. Palestinians were the aggressors so they have no right to murder the occupiers..”

        OMG Jack, the Zionists came from outside of the area and decided to settle down without a permit from the people who already lived there. You honestly expect the Palestinians would have been there serving some sparkling wine and snacks to wellcome the “new comers”?? I don’t know why you even bother to write all this tiring b*** ***t here. You can dig how deep you wish, but you will never find true legitimacy for the Zionists’ actions!!

      • amigo
        November 8, 2017, 7:20 pm

        “Jewish terrorism arose as self-defense against Palestinian terrorism.
        Palestinians murdered Jews in 1920, 1921 & 1929. Note the time period. Palestinian terrorism came before Jewish terrorism.” jacko

        Again jacko , stop posting these accusations without supporting links or credible and verifiable back up.

        So jacko your ok with the following!!.From the list I provided you with including a link to same.That is to say you support throwing bombs into open markets where civillians are shopping and setting off bombs in buses with women and children on board or setting offbombs in open spaces where civillians are gathered.

        1, 1938, June 19 18 Arabs killed (9 men, 6 women and 3 children), 24 injured by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Haifa. [15][16][17][18]

        2, 1938, July 5 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. [14]

        3, 1938, July 6 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa.

        4, 1947, December 13 5 killed, 47 wounded by two bombs at Damascus Gate. [53][54]

        5,11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs wounded when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi at Jerusalem’s Damascus Gate.

        etc etc etc.

        So jacko , you are ok with these acts of terrorism .I suppose you think Arab Terrorism came out of a vacuumn –like there was no Naqba and Palestinians had absolutley no reason whatsoever to resist the theft of their land and the decision by the British Mandate to give most of their land to a bunch of white skinned , blue eyed Europeans.

      • Mooser
        November 8, 2017, 7:32 pm

        “Jack” all the rights in the world won’t give us Jews the numbers, resources, discipline and power it’ll take to hold on to Palestine under Zionism.

      • Mooser
        November 8, 2017, 7:54 pm

        ” I don’t know why you even bother to write all this tiring b*** ***t here.”

        Because Zionists only know the arguments they use to convince each other, and cannot conceive of the fact that other people might not share their self-interest or their bigotries.
        And they are too naive to understand what they are revealing about themselves and Zionism in their comments.

      • amigo
        November 8, 2017, 8:09 pm

        “The occupied have no right to kill the occupiers when then occupation is the result of the aggression of the occupied” jacko the

        The occupier has no right to illegally annex land or transfer it,s citizens to the territory it occupies.

        See 4th Geneva Convention , article 49.

        These acts make the occupation “illegal” and is described in law as “belligerent Occupation” as defined by the IHCJ beit zourik v Israel case 2564.

        Stop making things up as you go jacko.It creates an image of someone who is scatter brained and lacking in grey matter.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 9, 2017, 7:36 am

        Moose:

        “And they are too naive to understand what they are revealing about themselves and Zionism in their comments..”

        That is true. It has been very eye-opening for me to read MW and specially some of the commentators here. My “Israelian Jewish bubble” was one point of view, but here I’ve definately seen another one. (More cruel and inhuman..)

      • Mooser
        November 9, 2017, 6:48 pm

        ” (More cruel and inhuman..) “

        And in this situation, commenting, the choice of which face to show is entirely up to them.

      • Mayhem
        November 9, 2017, 9:10 pm

        @Jack, when the precepts of Mondoweiss are to operate under the cloak of anti-semitism (hatred of Israel) it is virtually impossible to contest any argument. And when they use ad-hominems, ignore the malfeasances of the so-called Palestinians and other perverse tactics to deal with any topic you don’t have much hope if you are endeavouring to have any kind of rational debate.
        This article The Lowest Common Antisemitic Denominator: far-right pro-Israel views, far-left anti-Israel views, and Steve Bannon sums it up:
        ” Anti-Israel antisemitism on the left is exemplified by one of Breitbart’s left-wing analogs: Mondoweiss. While the liberal anti-Zionist site is widely read and praised on the left, and like Breitbart was founded by Jews, it is a hate site.
        George Mason University law professor David Bernstein explained, “Mondoweiss is basically one-stop shopping for anti-Israel news. Anything bad that goes on in Israel will be publicized and exaggerated at Mondoweiss.” Not only that, Mondoweiss assiduously ignores anything good that goes on in Israel. Slate’s Michelle Goldberg described Mondoweiss as “fulsomely, intensely anti-Israel.” The Weekly Standard’s Lee Smith held Mondoweiss “complicit in the common work of mainstreaming the kind of anti-Semitic language, ideas, and discourse that were once confined to extremist hate sites on the far right.” MJ Rosenberg, an Israel commentator with decades of experience in Democratic party politics, referred to Mondoweiss as “the most egregious example” of “raw anti-semitism evinced on anti-Israel websites.”
        Mondoweiss presents Israel as the paragon of a religious nationalist program engaged in “political separation of people on an ethnic basis and first class citizenship granted to one over the other,” with “militant and totalitarian aspects.” With this antisemitic characterization of Israel, the logical conclusion for those politically aligned with the left is that Zionism must be opposed and the Jewish State dismantled.”

      • eljay
        November 10, 2017, 10:11 am

        || Mayhem: @Jack, when the precepts of Mondoweiss are to operate under the cloak of anti-semitism (hatred of Israel) it is virtually impossible to contest any argument. … ||

        Re-defining anti-Semitism to mean “hatred of Israel” is just a convenient way for Zionists to absolve themselves and their colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” construct of responsibility and accountability for the evil they have done and continue deliberately to do.

        || ” … the logical conclusion for those politically aligned with the left is that Zionism must be opposed and the Jewish State dismantled.” ||

        That’s correct: Zionism – Jewish supremacism – must be opposed no less than any other form of supremacism, and the colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” construct must be dismantled so that Israel can be reformed into a secular and democratic state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

      • Mooser
        November 10, 2017, 12:09 pm

        “@Jack, when the precepts of Mondoweiss are to operate under the cloak of anti-semitism (hatred of Israel) it is virtually impossible to contest any argument. And when they use ad-hominems, ignore the malfeasances of the so-called Palestinians and other perverse tactics to deal with any topic you don’t have much hope if you are endeavouring to have any kind of rational debate.”

        You must have great perseverance and an implacable belief in your cause, to go on arguing it under those disabilities. And with that spelling, too. Oh, the practice of linking articles which say just about the opposite of what you are contending won’t help, either, but you keep banging away at it.

  10. Philip Weiss
    November 7, 2017, 3:18 pm

    Thanks for excellent report, Sheren. Note that UN’s special rapporteur on Palestinian territories, Michael Lynk, was not given access to Gaza or WB or EJ by Israel, for recent report saying Gaza was being driven “into the dark ages.” They really want full control over Palestinian lives, and deaths, and human rights questions too….
    http://mondoweiss.net/2017/10/rapporteur-sanctions-palestinians/

    • Mooser
      November 7, 2017, 4:02 pm

      “Note that UN’s special rapporteur…”

      The UN? Who’re they? I thought Israel played in the League of Nations, and had a Mandate with the British Umpire, who called it “Ball Four”.

    • Jack Green
      November 9, 2017, 12:00 pm

      amigo

      Evidence that even one square inch of land had been stolen by the Jews when Palestinians were murdering Jews in 1920?

      Not only did the British not give any land to the Jews, but the British refused to sell land to Jews. Only gentiles could buy land from the British.

      Those “white skinned , blue eyed Europeans” were returning to the land stolen from their ancestor as proved by both history & DNA. They were not pure. They had mixed with Europeans, but the Palestinians were not pure either. 2,000 years ago, the people of the Middle East were much whiter. They’re darker now because of the 13 million black African slaves brought to the Middle East.

      • amigo
        November 9, 2017, 1:10 pm

        “Evidence that even one square inch of land had been stolen by the Jews when Palestinians were murdering Jews in 1920?”jacko

        Evidence that Palestinians were murdering Jews in 1920.

      • amigo
        November 9, 2017, 1:37 pm

        “Not only did the British not give any land to the Jews, but the British refused to sell land to Jews. Only gentiles could buy land from the British.”jacko

        Evidence that the British did not sell one square inch of land to the Jews.

        Evidence , that only Gentiles could buy land from the British.

        I will wait.

        Oh , don,t forget to include links and /or verifiable or supporting evidence.We are all aware of your propensity for posting fake links or absent of those , just plain waffling.

      • amigo
        November 9, 2017, 2:22 pm

        “Those “white skinned , blue eyed Europeans” were returning to the land stolen from their ancestor as proved by both history & DNA.”

        Evidence please. DNA reports –Property deeds –wills or notarized testimonials —or any supporting evidence.

        BTW , the Bible is not evidence .

        I,ll wait.

      • Mooser
        November 9, 2017, 6:52 pm

        “Not only did the British not give any land to the Jews, but the British refused to sell land to Jews. Only gentiles could buy land from the British.”

        “JackGreen” is going to perform his wonderful little act called: “Painting myself into a corner by refilling the brush from the Porta-Potti.”

      • Mooser
        November 9, 2017, 7:24 pm

        “Those “white skinned , blue eyed Europeans” were returning to the land stolen from their ancestor as proved by both history & DNA. They were not pure. They had mixed with Europeans, but the Palestinians were not pure either. 2,000 years ago, the people of the Middle East were much whiter. They’re darker now because of the 13 million black African slaves brought to the Middle East.” “Jack Green”

        You are a “true pen wielder” “JackGreen”. You will aid many, many people in making up their minds about Zionism.

      • amigo
        November 9, 2017, 8:45 pm

        “2,000 years ago, the people of the Middle East were much whiter. They’re darker now because of the 13 million black African slaves brought to the Middle East.”jacko

        You better not tell that to !!!.

        Michael Oren.
        Mark Regev.
        The nutandyahoos.
        President Rivlin.
        Ehud,s olmert and barak.
        Tipsy Livni
        Isaac Herzog
        Shimon peres
        Gideon Levy
        Amira Haas

        ET AL now darker Israeli Jews whose ancestors played hanky panky with African slaves.

      • RoHa
        November 9, 2017, 11:51 pm

        “Evidence please. DNA reports –Property deeds –wills or notarized testimonials —or any supporting evidence.”

        I want to see family trees (accredited by the Royal College of Heralds) proving direct descent from Jews resident in Palestine 2,000 years ago.

      • oldgeezer
        November 10, 2017, 9:12 am

        @jack

        No the dna does not prove any such thing. Humams have always been migratory and it’s only recently that we have established borders to control such migrations. No doubt many, if not essentially all Europeans, can trace dna roots to the middle east thousands of years ago. Just we can all likely trace roots to Africa many millenia ago.

        Even the Irish and Celts can trace their dna to the Middle East 3,000 years ago.

        No one in their right mind would seriously state that edtablishes an Irish claim to be indigenous to the M.E. and endow them with any form of nationalistic rights in the region.

        While there is no doubt in my mind that some M.E. people migrated to Europe. And that some of those migrants were more than likely Jewish it does not establish a rational cause for Jewish claims to M.E. territory.

        (And as the Israelites moved into the region they were never indigenous to begin with. The Lebanese people do share a major percent of their dna wuth Caananites though)

      • Mooser
        November 10, 2017, 12:23 pm

        “Evidence please. DNA reports –Property deeds –wills or notarized testimonials —or any supporting evidence.”

        Gee, “RoHa” you don’t think the DNA alone, registered at the Office of Genetic Land Allotments, will be enough to secure Jewish rights in Palestine?

  11. lonely rico
    November 7, 2017, 8:20 pm

    !

    • Jack Green
      November 9, 2017, 7:14 pm

      amigo

      A study by an international team suggests the central and eastern European Jewish population, known as Ashkenazi Jews, from whom most American Jews are descended, started from a founding population of about 350 people between 600 and 800 years ago.
      Further, that group of Jews who experienced this “bottleneck” was of approximately evenly mixed Middle Eastern and European descent.

      https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/09/22/european-jews-closley-related-and-not-converted-khazars/

      • amigo
        November 9, 2017, 8:17 pm

        jacko , are you by any chance trapped in a spider,s web.

        Take some advice and stop wriggling around and play dead and the spider might think your expired and go build another web elsewhere at which point you might be able to cut yourself free and get the hell out of there and make a fresh start.

        OTOH , you can keep shucking and jiving and end up feeding every spider in the neighbourhood.

        Poor spiders.

        When are you going to answer all my questions, ???.

      • Mooser
        November 10, 2017, 11:30 am

        “When are you going to answer all my questions, ???.”

        “Jack Green” has never considered the fact that he might want to account for Zionism to anybody except another Zionist. Or someone who at least shares Zionist bigotries and misinformation. Beyond that, he is lost, and goes on repeating the same things more vociferously.

    • Jack Green
      November 10, 2017, 11:37 am

      oldgeezer

      Ashkenazi DNA is much closer than Irish DNA to the DNA of Middle Eastern Jews.

      • Mooser
        November 10, 2017, 12:25 pm

        “Ashkenazi DNA is much closer than Irish DNA to the DNA of Middle Eastern Jews.”

        Watch out, Ireland!

      • oldgeezer
        November 10, 2017, 2:05 pm

        Sure it is jack. What’s your source. Put up or shut up.

        Also as I said the Lebanese are closely linked to Caananites so they have a prior claim over Israel both by DNA and the bible as you ziofreaks like to say.

      • RoHa
        November 10, 2017, 6:54 pm

        How close is Palestinian DNA to the DNA of Middle Eastern Jews?

      • Bont Eastlake
        November 10, 2017, 9:05 pm

        Roha,

        If by Middle Eastern Jews, you mean Jews native to the Middle East and not having moved there anytime after the 18th century, then definitely they share almost all of their genetic profile with their neighbours of other faith.

        Palestinians themselves are most likely descendants of Middle Eastern Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam.

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 12:47 pm

        “How close is Palestinian DNA to the DNA of Middle Eastern Jews?”

        That depends on where the sample-tubes end up in the genetic-testing lab. Sometimes they are in different places, sometimes right next to each other!

    • Jack Green
      November 10, 2017, 9:12 pm

      Mooser

      Some Jews were sold as slaves or transported as captives after the fall of Judea…Jewish communities were thereby largely expelled from Judea and sent to various Roman provinces in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Roman_Empire

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 12:50 pm

        “Some Jews were sold as slaves or transported as captives after the fall of Judea…Jewish communities were thereby largely expelled from Judea and sent to various Roman provinces in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa.”

        No doubt. And that entitles us to something? Look, chump, even if my DNA is exactly like yours, that doesn’t mean you can tell me what to do.
        Hey, but if you want to sell the idea that all Jews owe fealty to Israel’s intransigence and Zionism’s crimes because of their Jewish genes, you go right ahead.

  12. amigo
    November 9, 2017, 1:00 pm

    ““Jewish terrorism arose as self-defense against Palestinian terrorism.”jacko

    I ask again ???>

    “So jacko your ok with the following!!.From the list I provided you with including a link to same.That is to say you support throwing bombs into open markets where civillians are shopping and setting off bombs in buses with women and children on board or setting offbombs in open spaces where civillians are gathered.

    1, 1938, June 19 18 Arabs killed (9 men, 6 women and 3 children), 24 injured by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Haifa. [15][16][17][18]

    2, 1938, July 5 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. [14]

    3, 1938, July 6 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa.

    4, 1947, December 13 5 killed, 47 wounded by two bombs at Damascus Gate. [53][54]

    5,11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs wounded when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi at Jerusalem’s Damascus Gate.

    etc etc etc.”

    Jacko , first things first ,

    Are you condoning Jewish terrorism–it,s a yes or no answer.

    Then we will address your fantasies about 2000 years of assimilation and all those dark Jews from 2000 years ago who enjoyed a little hanky panky with all those 13 million black slaves brought to the middle East and then later more hanky panky with white Europeans.

    Must have been confusing for those Jews , not knowing if they are Black or white or somewhere in between.Is it any wonder Zionists are crazy people.

    • Mooser
      November 10, 2017, 12:15 pm

      “Must have been confusing for those Jews , not knowing if they are Black or white or somewhere in between.”

      Oh, it’s terrible. There’s nothing to do except hope for the best, and in the meantime, sing a chorus of “I’ve got the Whole World in My Glands”

  13. Ossinev
    November 10, 2017, 1:34 pm

    @Jack Green
    “Ashkenazi DNA is much closer than Irish DNA to the DNA of Middle Eastern Jews”

    No shit Sherlock. You have just looked at a map I guess and discovered that the Black Sea is a lot closer to the Middle East than the Emerald Isle or are you going to say that your “findings” are based on decades of forensic research ?

  14. Ossinev
    November 10, 2017, 2:04 pm

    Hot off the Zio press:
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.821949

    Sounds as if a lot of countries want to get some live practice as in perhaps getting to bomb the odd “terrorist ” tunnel here or there or who knows perhaps take out a “terrorist” target at a strictly strictly strictly non civilian location or neutralise a couple of Gazan fishing boats smuggling mackerel. Who knows they may fit in a sortee over Lebanon or the Golan Heights. Clear breaches of International Law of course. Still if the only democracy in the Middle East ( or perhaps truth be told the entire universe currently and since time began ) can do it well why not ?

  15. Jack Green
    November 10, 2017, 4:25 pm

    http://forward.com/news/israel/209236/genetics-expert-insists-75-of-jews-share-roots-in/

    Genetics Expert Insists 75% of Jews Share Roots in Middle East

    Judy Maltz November 14, 2014 kurt hoffman

    “No less than 75 percent of Ashekanzi, Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews, their ancestors came from what we call the general Middle East”

    • oldgeezer
      November 10, 2017, 8:35 pm

      None of that addresses your contention that Jewish dna is closer to the middle east than the Irish. Many peoples can trace their roots to both the Middle East and earlier to Africa.

      Ok try two….

      Back up the claim you made. Put up or shut up.

      This isn’t baseball. No three strike rule. Lie once it could be a mistake. Lie more than once and you’re a fraud.

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 12:53 pm

        .” Lie more than once and you’re a fraud.”

        You must admit, “Green” does give us a nice look at the things Zionists use to convince themselves and other Zionists. And he’s not even smart enough to try and hide it.

  16. Jack Green
    November 10, 2017, 4:26 pm

    Contemporary Jews retain a genetic imprint from their Near Eastern ancestry

    http://www.nature.com/articles/srep08377

    • Mooser
      November 11, 2017, 12:09 pm

      “Contemporary Jews retain a genetic imprint from their Near Eastern ancestry”

      So what? Big deal. And stop skipping around the place! Either it’s the Near East, the Middle East, or the Far East. Make up your mind.

    • Brewer
      November 11, 2017, 2:39 pm

      I wonder if Jack reads the stuff he posts. From the preamble to the article:
      “The existence of some eastern Eurasian haplotypes in eastern Ashkenazi Jews supports an East Asian genetic contribution, likely from Chinese. Further evidence indicates that this connection can be attributed to a gene flow event that occurred less than 1.4 kilo-years ago (kya), which falls within the time frame of the Silk Road scenario and fits well with historical records and archaeological discoveries. This observed genetic contribution from Chinese to Ashkenazi Jews demonstrates that the historical exchange between Ashkenazim and the Far East was not confined to the cultural sphere but also extended to an exchange of genes.”

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 6:15 pm

        “I wonder if Jack reads the stuff he posts. From the preamble to the article:”

        People asked him to supply links, so he Googles and links to the first thing which seems supportive. Isn’t artificial intelligence wonderful?

      • RoHa
        November 11, 2017, 7:49 pm

        ““The existence of some eastern Eurasian haplotypes in eastern Ashkenazi Jews supports an East Asian genetic contribution, likely from Chinese.”

        So the Zionists are going to claim China as part of their ancestral homeland.

        “historical exchange between Ashkenazim and the Far East was not confined to the cultural sphere but also extended to an exchange of genes.”

        Since they didn’t have modern gene-splicing technology, I wonder how they managed that.

      • Mooser
        November 12, 2017, 11:39 am

        ” I wonder how they managed that.”

        With a sharp fid.

  17. Jack Green
    November 10, 2017, 4:27 pm

    extensive study in 2006 by a team based at Technion and Rambam Medical Center in Haifa suggested that Ashkenazi women—40 percent or more—may indeed have had ancient Near and Middle Eastern roots, and may have accompanied their husbands as part of families migrating together.

    https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/10/08/ashkenazi-jewish-women-descended-mostly-from-italian-converts-new-study-asserts/

  18. Jack Green
    November 10, 2017, 4:28 pm

    Jewish communities across the globe share a common “genetic thread”, according to a 2010 study led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York. Genetic analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek and Ashkenazi) identified two distinct clusters that split about 2,500 years ago: European/Syrian Jews and Middle Eastern Iraqi and Iranian Jews.

    https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/07/09/are-jews-a-genetic-race-or-population-12-examples-of-jewish-genetic-distinctiveness/

    • Bont Eastlake
      November 10, 2017, 8:58 pm

      Shared strands of genetic material is absolutely meaningless when the constraints are self defined. Given a wide enough range of genetic data, any randomly sampled pair of persons are likely to share similar genes. Likewise, when we choose to limit the genetic data to a specific set of DNA strands, then even pairs related by blood and ancestry may end up not sharing similar genes.

      Hence, the most current consensus within the global scientific community is that race is a social construct based on poorly or even wrongly understood scientific principles. There is only one race, the human race.

      • RoHa
        November 11, 2017, 12:10 am

        ” race is a social construct”

        I don’t really know what that is supposed to mean. Regardless of whether we say “races” or not, we can class the various types of human being into groups based on aspects of their appearance which are genetically determined. And these groups are geographically concentrated. In East Asia, most people have genes which lead to an epicanthic fold and black hair. (Now fashionably dyed a sort of auburn colour.) People in Central Africa tend to be tall and have dark brown skin. Northern Europeans tend to be light skinned, frequently fair-haired, lugubrious, and impervious to cold.

        Of course, there are variations within the groups, and we seldom find hard and fast boundaries between them, but that does not change the overall picture. The genetic clusters (am I using the term correctly?) are an objective reality, regardless of how we think of them.

        “There is only one race, the human race.”

        Does this mean that old misanthropes like me can be classed as racists?

      • Bont Eastlake
        November 11, 2017, 9:17 am

        Roha,

        These genetic clusters obviously exist, and we don’t need to know any genetic sciences to observe them. Asians look, well Asian while Africans, look African…generally speaking. These differences in traits correspond to the differences in the environment these people choose to settle and reproduce in. As such, the differences, or the clustering of genetic material based on geography can be simply summised to be a fundamental trait of the human race in response to the broader natural laws of adaptation, reproduction and genetic fitness.

        The differences in genetic profile do not actually render any of the human populace to be incompatible to reproduce or build a family with. A round eyed Spaniard can just as easily have babies with a Korean as with their fellow Spaniards. In the former case, in one generation, we would have a whole new genetic profile, a new branch in the global genetic tree. Given such a fragile nature of the genetic clusters, that are ever so fluid with the movement of people across the globe, it should have zero bearing on the static disciplines such as politics, morality and law.

        This is what I understand as human being being a singular race. There are practically infinite combinations and permutations of genetic profiles within the global human population, that constantly shifts and shuffle across time and geographic locations. However, all share the same human traits of desiring justice, morality, happiness, spiritual connections and peace.

      • RoHa
        November 11, 2017, 9:49 am

        I know (from experience) that people from different genetic clusters can reproduce. That shows that humans are either a single species or a set of very closely related species. But the clusters exist, and they are what are commonly called “races”. So what does “race is a social construct ” mean?

      • Bont Eastlake
        November 11, 2017, 10:37 am

        These clusters on their own do not convey any information beyond what is recorded by the scientific journals. People see these clustering and fabricate all kind of myth and ideologies based on them, that are not backed by any hard science. Being part of a cluster, doesn’t automatically align the members of the cluster to a unified political, moral, ethical, religious or spiritual identity. It simply means these peope share more DNA among themselves, relative to the global population.

        The natural laws that govern selection, adaptation, fitness etc, that applies to pretty much all living things, caused these clusters to form, as Darwin belatedly discovered in his lifelong research. It is a specific trait of the human race responding to these natural law.

        Historically, no culture or political unit used these vague and shifting clusters as their basis for self identity. It is a recent Western game, possibly as a kneejerk reaction to Darwins discoveries. Outside of the West, people either relied on ancestry be it patrilineal or matrilineal, religion, language or just a connection to the land. All were objectively based and are not subject to arbitrary interpretation and analysis, like race is.

      • Keith
        November 11, 2017, 10:41 am

        ROHA- “… or a set of very closely related species.”

        I have never heard any reputable scientific source claim that humans are anything other than a single species. Do you have a link or other references?

      • Keith
        November 11, 2017, 10:50 am

        BONT EASTLAKE- “However, all share the same human traits of desiring justice, morality, happiness, spiritual connections and peace.”

        So that explains the absence of war, crime, exploitation, poverty, etc. No wonder I am so happy and contented!

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 12:12 pm

        So I guess the fact that I have a “genetic connection” to the Middle (or Near) East obligates me to support Zionism?

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 1:16 pm

        “So what does “race is a social construct ” mean?”

        It means that certain values (laziness, intelligence, aggressiveness, passivity, whatever and a host of others) are assigned to these different characteristics (skin tone, facial look, etc).

        But you know that “RoHa”.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 11, 2017, 4:19 pm

        Moose:

        “So I guess the fact that I have a “genetic connection” to the Middle (or Near) East obligates me to support Zionism..”

        I don’t know, if I should find these kind of discussions weird or hilarious..?? (The matter itself ofcourse is a serious one.) Few days ago a friend of mine asked for a recipe for a good autumn dish and I recommended that she should try to make Shakshuka. So I went to internet to find a good recipe for her and found a really simple and good one. It was called “The Israeli Shakshuka” (I said to my friend, it is originally from North-Africa) and I posted the link to her. After posting the recipe, I noticed the comments under it. Someone had written: “Shaksuka is not from Israel, it is originally from Tunis. You stole it from us.” Then another one had answered: “It was originally Jewish, when Jews lived in the Middle East thousands of years ago. So the Arabs stole it from us and now we took it back..”

        After that I had already lost my apetite and felt, I might never be able to eat that “food of regional politics” anymore..

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 6:19 pm

        “After that I had already lost my appetite…”

        So have an awful lot of Jewish people. Their appetite for organised Judaism.

      • RoHa
        November 11, 2017, 7:58 pm

        “I have never heard any reputable scientific source claim that humans are anything other than a single species. ”

        I have read suggestions that modern humans are a hybrid of early human species. (E.g., Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal.)

        But my comment was merely reflecting the possibility that modern humans are a group of related species, since reproduction does not, by itself, establish a single species.

      • RoHa
        November 11, 2017, 8:05 pm

        Thank you, Mooser. I know that values are attached to the characteristics, but I did not know that “race is a social construct” actually meant “the values attached to races are a social construct”. Since race and values are different things, I found the expression confusing.

      • Bont Eastlake
        November 12, 2017, 3:54 am

        Roha,

        Race itself can mean anything, depending on who defines it. Hence, no serious culture or civilization ever employed such a concept in its society. Sometimes, there is simply no answer to a fundamentally flawed question.

        Now, I am not denying real issues concerning race such as racism, discrimination and colorblindness etc. These are real and despicable aspects of human nature that must be fought against constantly. Race however, is just another product of human stupidity or evil cunning, depending on who benefits from it.

      • gamal
        November 12, 2017, 6:57 am

        “Their appetite for organised Judaism”

        which is why it’s such great news, Wahhabism has gone moderate, hallelujah, we can all revert with confidence, with our shirts open to our belly buttons and slabs of beer under our arms, Islam reformed as we all hoped it might,

        Marwa Usman made a remark about Nadjis to the Corbett report, I thought well now Mondoweiss readers will know what she means, sadly it also means you have been, even if only marginally, Islamized…only a little but its cumulative, don’t say I never do anything for you, how much hummus are you eating?

        https://www.corbettreport.com/interview-1320-marwa-osman-reports-on-the-saudi-purge/

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 3:28 pm

        ” I know that values are attached to the characteristics, but I did not know that “race is a social construct” actually meant “the values attached to races are a social construct”.

        Led a sheltered life, huh?

      • RoHa
        November 14, 2017, 10:19 pm

        “Led a sheltered life, huh?”

        Probably. In the RoHa world, “race” meant biology. Attitudes associated with race were referred to as “racial prejudice”, “racial stereotypes”, and so forth.

      • Mooser
        November 15, 2017, 11:57 am

        “Probably. In the RoHa world, “race” meant biology. “

        Okay, then, “RoHa”, break out your pith-helmet and butterfly net, grab a specimen-jar, and tell me where the dividing line, in terms of “biology” between “black” and “white” race is?

        And describe the “biological” differences between the races. “Biological” differences, not the differences you perceive.

      • RoHa
        November 15, 2017, 11:23 pm

        Mooser, you know better than to use a sorites fallacy.

        The average Congolese has much more melanin in his skin than the average Sami.

        The difference is not eliminated by a continuum of melanin levels, any more than the difference between -10C and +10C is eliminated by a continuum of temperatures.

        The difference is genetically (and therefore biologically) based, but I cannot point you to the specific genes involved. Perhaps some geneticist knows.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 16, 2017, 9:41 am

        Roha:

        “Perhaps some geneticist knows..”

        Just remembered reading about this lately. Maybe there are some answers in here :) !

        https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/science/skin-color-race.html

      • RoHa
        November 16, 2017, 10:15 pm

        Thanks, Kaisa. Interesting stuff.

    • Mooser
      November 11, 2017, 12:32 pm

      “Jewish communities across the globe share a common “genetic thread”,

      Okay, “Jack Green” you go ahead and use that “genetic thread” to round us all up and tie us to today’s Israel and Zionism. You will find out how strong it is.

      • Jack Green
        November 11, 2017, 6:49 pm

        Mooser

        A “genetic connection” to the Middle (or Near) East does not obligate you to support Zionism.
        Some Jews believe that Jews are in the diaspora as punishment & it is up to God to decide when the punishment should end. However, there are others who say that God helps those who help themselves. According to the Bible, the Red Sea didn’t split until a Jew jumped in.

        Jews had been persecuted for centuries in majority-gentile countries. Even when not actively persecuting the Jews, the majority-gentile countries refused to give refuge to the Jews when they needed it. There would have been no Holocaust if majority-gentile countries would have allowed in Jewish refugees who were escaping from the Nazis. The idea of Zionism was that Jews would return to their homeland & have a majority-Jewish country because majority-gentile countries had failed to provide safety for the Jews.

        I consider myself a Zionist, but I don’t think that all Jews should return to Israel. I don’t believe in putting all the eggs into one basket.

        I hope you never need it, but I’m glad Israel is there in case you do.

      • Mooser
        November 12, 2017, 11:28 am

        “A “genetic connection” to the Middle (or Near) East does not obligate you to support Zionism.”

        Nor does it obligate anybody to give us Jews one square foot of the “Middle (or Near or Far) East”.

        “Some Jews believe…”

        “Now some they do and some they don’t
        And some you just can’t tell
        And some they will and some they won’t
        With some it’s just as well”

      • Mooser
        November 12, 2017, 12:17 pm

        “I hope you never need it, but I’m glad Israel is there in case you do.”

        Oh, please. You’d be the first one there with an ax-handle to keep me out. It’s not like Israel has room or resources for every ostensible Jew in the world.

        Why should I go to Israel and get pushed around by Jews when I can stay in the US and get pushed around and bossed by everybody? That’s diversity, baby!

    • Brewer
      November 11, 2017, 2:46 pm

      Again Jack, you should read the articles you cite. From your latest, right after the misleading quote you posted:
      “Curiously, a 2013 study of the maternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews suggests that their ancestors were prehistoric European women from the Northern Mediterranean—and not the Middle East or the Caucasus, as other research has posited. The study analyzed mitochondrial DNA (loops of genetic material passed down from mother to child in tiny organelles carried by their eggs).

      Led by Martin B. Richards of the University of Leeds in the UK, the research suggests that 40 percent of the variation in Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA can be traced to prehistoric Europe, indicating that the maternal ancestors of most modern Ashkenazi Jews converted to Judaism some 2,000 years ago.”

      • Jack Green
        November 12, 2017, 4:01 pm

        Mooser

        No one has given Jews even 1 square foot of land.

      • Jack Green
        November 12, 2017, 4:03 pm

        Mooser

        Why would I be the first one there with an ax-handle to keep me out?

        Evidence that Israel does NOT have room or resources for every ostensible Jew in the world?

      • Mooser
        November 12, 2017, 4:17 pm

        “No one has given Jews even 1 square foot of land.”

        A lung un leber oyf der noz! This must be that “ethical tradition” I’m always hearing about. Other historic short-end-of-the-stickers just gripe about “Justice” and “Peace”. How many have the “ethical tradition” which enables them to turn their grievances into an detailed invoice?

        Hey, “JackGreen”, if it is any comfort to you, I don’t think they gave the freed African-American slaves any free land either.

      • amigo
        November 12, 2017, 4:34 pm

        “No one has given Jews even 1 square foot of land.” jacko

        You have got that right jacko.

        They stole most of it—that is the Israeli zionist type Jews with the aid of the JNF and a plethora of Jewish gazillionaires.

        When are you going to clarify your position on Jewish Terrorism.Do you or do you not support it???.

        We are all waiting.

      • just
        November 12, 2017, 5:11 pm

        Hardy har har! Good one, “Jack”!

        How about Israel’s continued theft, including these willing and complicit foreigners?

        “Birthright Operator Promotes Free Extended Israel Stay for Volunteering With Extremist Rabbi in the Settlements

        Hundreds, if not thousands, of Birthright participants have extended their trips to stay at a Jerusalem hostel where projects include building homes and planting trees at illegal outposts”

        read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.821979

        Quite sure that you think it’s grand, but it’s illegal in every way. I look forward to the day that these “young adults” , their parents and their ‘leaders’ are punished.

      • amigo
        November 13, 2017, 9:50 am

        “No one has given Jews even 1 square foot of land.”jacko

        Like I said earlier , it wasn,t given , it was stolen.

        Why do you equate Israel with all Jews.You know that that is antisemitic.

        “World Zionist Organization Gave Private Palestinian Land to West Bank Settlers

        The 12.5 acres were given to the illegal outpost of Ma’aleh Rehavam in 2002 by the WZO settlement division even though the division had no rights the land, newly discovered documents show
        read more: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.822420

        This is just none very minuscule example of how zionists have stolen hundreds of thousands of acres of privately owned Palestinian land –because they could.

        When are you going to condemn Jewish terrorism .

        You stated that Jewish terrorism only happened because (according to you ) Palestinian terrorism came first.That sounds as if you are justifying Jewish terrorism.

        Would you like to avail of this 7th offer to allow you to clarify your position.

        And from another thread I asked if you accept that there was a “Naqba”.

        A simple yes or no on both questions unless you can point me to one of your links that provides evidence ,there was no Naqba.

        And no , in case you ask, I do not support any form of terrorism , regardless of who perpetrates it.

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 11:49 am

        “No one has given Jews even 1 square foot of land.”jacko

        I ask you, is there any group on earth, any race, religion or people, which is owed a fraction of what the world owes the Jews?

      • Mooser
        November 14, 2017, 11:16 am

        “Evidence that Israel does NOT have room or resources for every ostensible Jew in the world?” “Jack Green”

        Can you actually be this thick, “Jackila”? If you don’t have “room or resources” for the three quarters of a million Palestinians you kicked out of “Israel”, why would you have room and resources for another 9 million or so Jews? (Most of whom are secular, and very unwilling to take any shit from the Orthodox. Oh, BTW, don’t forget their non-Jewish husbands, wives and children, in many cases. Got room?)

        Oh, and when you say “Israel” which land area are you talking about? The 48′, the 68′ or including ‘the occupied territories’?

  19. Jack Green
    November 10, 2017, 9:02 pm

    oldgeezer
    Ossinev

    Genetic distance Ashkenazi to Palestinians .0093 Askenazi to Druze .0088
    Irish to Palestinian .017 Irish to Druze .0154

    Ashkenazi closer than Irish to the Middle East

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#Relation_between_Europeans_and_other_populations

    • John O
      November 11, 2017, 8:05 am

      Assuming (judging from the link you provided) that these figures are percentages, the Irish connections to Palestinians and Druze are both shorter than the Ashkenazi connections.

      • Jack Green
        November 11, 2017, 12:24 pm

        John O

        They’re distances. The bigger the number, the greater the distance.

      • John O
        November 11, 2017, 1:24 pm

        @Jack Green

        On my planet, distances are expressed in units such as miles, kilometres and light years.

        Genetic distance, the term you used earlier, is a metaphor, and not a very useful one. Are you talking about the effect of time on genetic variation, or the effect of geographical separation?

        The figures you gave are fractions. Without telling the reader what they are fractions of, they are meaningless. Even if you gave us the thing that they are a fraction of, they would tell us very little, since they equate to 17 in a thousand as opposed to nine in a thousand – not even out of the region of likely statistical error.

    • Jack Green
      November 13, 2017, 11:36 am

      amigo

      Did the people who gave the land to Ma’aleh Rehavam believe that the land belongs to the Palestinians or do they believe that, based on the Bible, it’s Jewish land?

      • amigo
        November 13, 2017, 12:29 pm

        “Did the people who gave the land to Ma’aleh Rehavam believe that the land belongs to the Palestinians or do they believe that, based on the Bible, it’s Jewish land?” jack green.

        FFS , you are as thick as 2 short planks .The answer is in my post above.

        Here it is again.

        “The 12.5 acres were given to the illegal outpost of Ma’aleh Rehavam in 2002 by the WZO settlement division even though the division had no rights the land, newly discovered documents show”.

        The bible has sfa to do with it.Open the link and read the article.

        What I don,t understand is why the moderator allows most/any of your drivel through.I guess someone up there doesn,t like you.

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 1:43 pm

        “What I don,t understand is why the moderator allows most/any of your drivel through”

        The Mondo Mods are well aware of the fact that Zionist comments may expose Mondo as a fraud, and prove Israel is the most righteous nation on earth.
        But the Mods are sworn to uphold freedom-of-speech principles, in spite of the risk, and publish comments from Zionists.

      • Jack Green
        November 13, 2017, 4:32 pm

        amigo

        I reread the article.
        I still don’t see the answer to my question:
        Did the people who gave the land to Ma’aleh Rehavam believe that the land belongs to the Palestinians or do they believe that, based on the Bible, it’s Jewish land?

      • amigo
        November 13, 2017, 4:51 pm

        “I reread the article.
        I still don’t see the answer to my question:
        Did the people who gave the land to Ma’aleh Rehavam believe that the land belongs to the Palestinians or do they believe that, based on the Bible, it’s Jewish land?”jack Green.

        Of course you don,t because your God , apparently approves of theft , as long as Jews are not the victim.

        Glad to see your moderation issues are solved , even if only temporarily.

        Might be a good time to condemn Jewish terrorism and acknowledge the NAKBA .Do it quick though .Your moderator might be on a short coffee break.

      • Mooser
        November 14, 2017, 11:19 am

        “Might be a good time to condemn Jewish terrorism and acknowledge the NAKBA .Do it quick though .Your moderator might be on a short coffee break.”

        Yeah, it’ll be ‘the comment on the Moderation-room floor’ which solves the case.

    • Jack Green
      November 13, 2017, 11:38 am

      amigo

      Some of what I write does not make it through moderation.

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 11:51 am

        “Some of what I write does not make it through moderation.”

        Nonsense, every single Ziobot uses that same excuse.
        The fact is, “Jack”, you forget to push “Post Comment” when you are done, and blame the Mods.

      • amigo
        November 13, 2017, 12:13 pm

        “Some of what I write does not make it through moderation.”jack green

        So , write it again and this time follow Mooser,s advice and hit the post comment button.

        We would all love to see you condemn Jewish terrorism and admit there was a Nakba.

        I am confident at least one of the moderators is neutral.

      • Jack Green
        November 13, 2017, 9:41 pm

        amigo

        If someone takes something that he believes is his, then it’s not theft.

      • amigo
        November 14, 2017, 8:41 am

        “If someone takes something that he believes is his, then it’s not theft.”jack green

        If the Nazis believed they had a right to carry out the holocaust , does that mean it wasn,t a crime.

        But never mind all that as you are far too thick skulled to discuss reality on this planet but let,s get back to your support for Jewish terrorism.

        “PALESTINIAN TERRORISM CAME BEFORE JEWISH TERRORISM”.JACK GREEN.

        Since you made this statement two weeks ago , on 10 or I1 occasions , I have given you the opportunity to clarify your position on Jewish terrorism , that is to say , do you oppose it or support it.

        You have to date refused to answer this question and intimating you had by claiming ,”some of what you write does not pass moderation” .I then suggested that you rewrite those posts , but you have chosen to ignore that.

        I CAN ONLY ASSUME THAT GIVEN YOUR REFUSAL TO CONDEMN JEWISH TERRORISM AND ACKNOWLEDGE THE NAKBA , YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM AND DENY THE NAKBA.

        And just in case you ask , I repeat , I condemn any form of terrorism , no matter who commits it.

        So jack green , hence forward , expect to find this post on MW at least once every day.

        Outside of that I am done with you.I do not associate with supporters of terrorism or religious extremists who justify theft, murder and ethnic cleansing based on the made up stories from a book written for Jews , by Jews.

      • Mooser
        November 14, 2017, 11:25 am

        “If someone takes something that he believes is his, then it’s not theft.”

        Uh, stupid, that only works if you have all the power. You figure Jews have enough power to overturn the morality and legality of the world in their favor?

        All couple-million of us, and dwindling?

        Hey, no trauma ‘long us! Just a couple decades ago, the victims of a Holocaust, today, the aristocratic moral and legal arbiters of the world.

    • Jack Green
      November 13, 2017, 9:27 pm

      Mooser

      I don’t think that the world owes the Jews anything.
      I do think that certain countries & individuals do owe some Jews.

      • Mooser
        November 14, 2017, 11:28 am

        “I do think that certain countries & individuals do owe some Jews.”

        Oh, I see. I’m not included on the invoice, huh? The account is credited only to you.

      • Jack Green
        November 14, 2017, 11:45 am

        amigo

        You acknowledge that I have complained about not getting through moderation & yet you continue to make assumptions.

        “You have to date refused to answer this question ”

        You don’t know that I refused. You are just making an assumption.

        “then suggested that you rewrite those posts , but you have chosen to ignore that.”

        You don’t know that I have chose to ignore that. You are just making an assumption

        You don’t know if I “justify theft, murder and ethnic cleansing based on the made up stories from a book written for Jews , by Jews.” You are just making an assumption.

      • amigo
        November 14, 2017, 12:04 pm

        I will take your response as evidence of your support for Jewish terrorism and Nakba denial.As will most others here.

        Thank you.

      • Mooser
        November 14, 2017, 12:36 pm

        “You acknowledge that I have complained about not getting through moderation & yet you continue to make assumptions.”

        All “Jack Green’s” best comments are lying on the Moderation-room floor.

      • amigo
        November 14, 2017, 1:26 pm

        “If someone takes something that he believes is his, then it’s not theft.”Jack Green

        Later!!

        “You don’t know if I “justify theft, murder and ethnic cleansing based on the made up stories from a book written for Jews , by Jews.” You are just making an assumption.”jack green

        Really, then what is this statement meant to convey.
        “I still don’t see the answer to my question:
        Did the people who gave the land to Ma’aleh Rehavam believe that the land belongs to the Palestinians or do they believe that, based on the Bible, it’s Jewish land?”Jack green.

        So , I am not making assumptions .It is right there in your own words.You could have said they were wrong but you decided to condone their action .

  20. Jack Green
    November 10, 2017, 9:04 pm

    RoHa

    Blood Brothers: Palestinians and Jews Share Genetic Roots

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/science/1.681385

    • Mooser
      November 11, 2017, 12:13 pm

      “Blood Brothers: Palestinians and Jews Share Genetic Roots”

      So what?

      • Jack Green
        November 11, 2017, 4:21 pm

        Mooser

        I was answering RoHa’s question.

        But I like your answer better:

        “That depends on where the sample-tubes end up in the genetic-testing lab. Sometimes they are in different places, sometimes right next to each other!”

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 6:23 pm

        “But I like your answer better:”

        Only because you are too stupid to understand it.

      • Mooser
        November 12, 2017, 4:32 pm

        Uh, “JackGreen”, I just want to make sure of something. You do understand that all this “genetic threads” and “genetic connections” is not, in any way, like the “DNA evidence” used in criminal trials, don’t you?

  21. oldgeezer
    November 10, 2017, 9:14 pm

    No rescue attempt. Let them suffocate.

    Just as no first aid or medical attention to the wounded. Let them bleed out.

    Remember this the next time that Israel attempts to whitewash the pure evil they perpetrate.

  22. Jack Green
    November 10, 2017, 9:47 pm

    “It also forbade land sales to Jews in 95 percent of the territory of Palestine. ”

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-restrictions-on-jewish-immigration-to-palestine

  23. Ossinev
    November 11, 2017, 7:46 am

    @Jack Green
    “Blood Brothers: Palestinians and Jews Share Genetic Roots”
    Hooray they can now share the same roads,neighbourhoods,aquifers and checkpoints.
    BTW What a great name for a SKA band – presenting “Genetic Roots”.

    • MHughes976
      November 11, 2017, 11:12 am

      Yes, wouldn’t it be nice if Ostrer’s genetic studies were used in that way! The fact that they will not be used in that way at all shows, among other things, that the claims of Zionism are based, among other things, on sudden confusing switches between claims to continuity with ancient Israel based on genetics and claims based on religion/culture. Mind you, Ostrer-style claims are highly controversial. Steven Weitzman’s ‘Origins of the Jews’ (Princeton 2017) is quite informative.

      • Jack Green
        November 11, 2017, 12:30 pm

        MHughes976

        The genetic studies reinforce the historical, archaeological & religious claims.

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 1:23 pm

        “The genetic studies reinforce the historical, archaeological & religious claims.”

        ROTFLMSJAO!! Maybe in your mind, chump.

      • MHughes976
        November 11, 2017, 6:52 pm

        I don’t see how claims of religious character can be reinforced by claims of a scientific character. Mind you, if all these claims were to be articulated fully and carefully we could examine their logical connections.

      • RoHa
        November 11, 2017, 8:14 pm

        “The genetic studies reinforce the historical, archaeological & religious claims.”

        Which is of technical interest, but does not give those claims any moral force.

      • Brewer
        November 12, 2017, 3:55 am

        “The genetic studies reinforce the historical, archaeological & religious claims.”
        Simply not so.
        All, including Ostrer have found that Palestinians and Mizrahi are virtually identical and that Ashkenazim are quite distinct.
        http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html
        The latest research has re-vitalized the Khazar hypothesis:
        https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/5/1/61/728117

        It is very complex and, in the end, a really rather stupid argument when applied to the Israel/Palestine question.
        Who, in their right mind, can assert that a tract of land belongs to them by virtue of their DNA?

        “It is often said that the Arabs fled, that they left the country voluntarily, and that they therefore bear the responsibility for losing their property and their land. It is true that in history there are some instances — in Rome and in France during the Revolutions when enemies of the state were proscribed and their property confiscated. But in general international law, the principle holds true that no citizen loses his property or his rights of citizenship; and the citizenship right is de facto a right to which the Arabs in Israel have much more legitimacy than the [European] Jews. Just because the Arabs fled? Since when is that punishable by confiscation of property and by being barred from returning to the land on which a people’s forefathers have lived for generations? Thus, the claim of the Jews to the land of Israel cannot be a realistic political claim. If all nations would suddenly claim territories in which their forefathers had lived two thousand years ago, this world would be a madhouse. … I believe that, politically speaking, there is only one solution for Israel, namely, the unilateral acknowledgement of the obligation of the State towards the Arabs — not to use it as a bargaining point, but to acknowledge the complete moral obligation of the Israeli State to its former inhabitants of Palestine.”
        – Eric Fromm.
        Jewish Newsletter [New York] (19 May 1959); quoted in Prophets in Babylon (1980) by Marion Woolfson, p. 13.

      • Nathan
        November 12, 2017, 5:07 am

        MHughs976 – There were no doubts concerning the background of the Jews at the end of the 19th century and at the beginning of the 20th century. Everyone in the world assumed that the Jews are the descendants of ancient Israel, and there were no debates in this regard. The research of DNA is a new endeavor of recent decades, so only now do you hear of research projects which confirm or refute the descent of today’s Jews from ancient Israel.

        Anyway, most of us don’t even have the scientific background to understand what is being discussed. Our real debate is political. An anti-Israel activist will continue to negate the legitimacy of Israel even if a voice from heaven would announce that the Jews of today are the direct descendants of the tribes of Israel. And a supporter of Israel accepts her legitimacy even if it would be proved that the Jews arrived from the southern hemisphere of Mars.

        The State of Israel exists, period. The veracity of Biblical literature and/or the esoterics of DNA are really not relevant.

      • echinococcus
        November 12, 2017, 8:41 am

        “Nathan” has a spurt of logic.

        The veracity of Biblical literature and/or the esoterics of DNA are really not relevant.

        Congratulations (a little detail: it’s esoteric to you, not all, but you are absolutely right.) It’s a Zionist smokescreen.

        The State of Israel exists, period.

        Which is why it must and will be made to unexist, as many others have already been.

      • eljay
        November 12, 2017, 9:56 am

        || Nathan: … The State of Israel exists, period. The veracity of Biblical literature and/or the esoterics of DNA are really not relevant. ||

        Right:
        – Partition-borders Israel exists and – as a secular and democratic state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees (CIERs), equally – it should continue to exist until its CIERs democratically decide it should no longer exist.
        – Religion-supremacist “Jewish State” – a state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews – has no right to exist.

      • Mooser
        November 12, 2017, 12:23 pm

        “The State of Israel exists, period.”

        So did Grossingers. And we thought it would always be there.

      • MHughes976
        November 12, 2017, 12:40 pm

        Echino is absolutely right that Nathan is, at the point mentioned, absolutely right. Israel most certainly exists and has achieved some good things, rather more than just cherry tomatoes. However, it exists by exercising sovereign power in what it calls disputed territories over very many disfranchised people and it exists as a result of excluding very many people from their homes in 48, creating problems (to use a mild word) that continue to this day. How shall that existence be justified? Not from studying DNA or from reading ancient history, I agree. Then how shall we proceed?

      • Maghlawatan
        November 12, 2017, 12:44 pm

        Brewer,
        This was in the Guardian

        “Shlaim, author of The Iron Wall, an acclaimed study of Israel’s military policies, has made a close study of the cabinet and general staff papers from the war. Although he agrees that it was a defensive war, he argues that – in the ease of the victory and in the national sense of joy – opportunities were lost, not least for a wider peace.

        “Zionism [the historic movement for Jewish self determination in its own state] lost its way in 1967, that’s the crucial thing,” he told the Observer. “The main aim of the Zionist movement before the war was the establishment of an independent Jewish state in Palestine. But by the eve of the war that objective had already been achieved. The victory in 1967 reopened the old question of the territorial aims of Zionism.

        “And the two trends that emerged cut across party lines … the big division after 1967 was between those who accepted the division of Palestine as a solution and those saying the West Bank was an integral part of the land of Israel. And in an Israeli society split down the middle, the government resolved the dilemma by deciding not to decide.””

        Fatal mistake

      • echinococcus
        November 12, 2017, 3:01 pm

        Hughes,

        creating problems (to use a mild word) that continue to this day… then how shall we proceed?

        By following logic: eliminating the creator of the problem solves the problem.
        The Palestinian people seem to be the only ones who understand how uncomplicated, albeit difficult, the whole thing is.

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 1:45 pm

        ” There were no doubts concerning the background of the Jews at the end of the 19th century and at the beginning of the 20th century. Everyone in the world assumed that the Jews are the descendants of ancient Israel”

        And they treated us Jews like the royalty we are! Oh, if we could only go back to the way it was for Jews in the 19th and early to mid 20th Century

      • MHughes976
        November 14, 2017, 3:18 pm

        You and I, echino, recognise how good it would be if these moral disasters were generally seen for what they are, But my question ‘How shall we proceed?’ was meant not for the likes of us but for the likes of those like Nathan who have recognised, it seems, that justification for the Z system cannot come from Deuteronomy or DNA: so from where, from what considerations?

      • Nathan
        November 14, 2017, 10:18 pm

        eljay – The Partition Plan of 29 Nov 1947 was a proposal to found a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine. In your comments, you seem to be recognizing the legitimacy of the Partition Plan borders, but you don’t recognize the legitimacy of a Jewish state. Obviously, your recognition or non-recognition is not a necessary component in world affairs. However, in the realm of an intellectual discussion, it is an interesting contradiction. Why is it that the Partition Plan is fine for establishing legitimate borders, but that which these borders were supposed to define (the Jewish state) is not legitimate? Surely, if you reject the concept of a Jewish state, then you obviously should be rejecting the Partition Plan, period.

        MHughes976 – You ask how can the existence of Israel be justified. Well, no one has to justify the establishment of any state in the world. The justification for the existence of a state is not an issue in political science. Only in the realm of a propaganda war is the issue of the justification for the founding of Israel debated. However, the debate (as interesting as it might be) is totally irrelevant. A state comes into existence when there is a government that has effective control over territory with a permanent population. No one has to check the DNA of the residents. No one has to quote the Bible. No one has to prove that the founding of the state was just. There is also no need in winning the recognition of others. The very existence of the state is by definition legitimate. Actually, it’s quite like the birth of a child: No one has to explain to us why one was born.

      • eljay
        November 15, 2017, 9:09 am

        || Nathan: eljay – The Partition Plan of 29 Nov 1947 was a proposal to found a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine. In your comments, you seem to be recognizing the legitimacy of the Partition Plan borders, but you don’t recognize the legitimacy of a Jewish state. … ||

        I accept that Partition happened and that Israel:
        – accepted Partition borders;
        – asked to be recognized as a state within those borders; and
        – was recognized as a state within those borders.

        Jewish supremacism is as illegitimate as any other form of supremacism. “Jewish State” is a religion-supremacist construct. I do not accept it.

        Colonialism in the 21st century is unacceptable. Israel has been stealing, occupying and colonizing territory outside of its / Partition borders for ~70 years. I do not accept it.

        || … Obviously, your recognition or non-recognition is not a necessary component in world affairs. … ||

        No f*cking kidding.

        || … However, in the realm of an intellectual discussion, it is an interesting contradiction. Why is it that the Partition Plan is fine for establishing legitimate borders, but that which these borders were supposed to define (the Jewish state) is not legitimate? Surely, if you reject the concept of a Jewish state, then you obviously should be rejecting the Partition Plan, period. ||

        See above.

    • Mooser
      November 11, 2017, 12:15 pm

      “Ossinev”, don’t knock that “genetic connection”! When the “genetic connection” takes over, Jews are helpless in its grip, and must support Zionism.

      • Jack Green
        November 12, 2017, 3:58 pm

        eljay

        Israel has 1.6 million Arabs.

        Arab women in Israel live longer than Arab women in any Arab country.

        Arab babies in Israel have lower infant mortality than Arab babies in any Arab country.

        Hadassah University Medical Center in Israel established a registry for Arab donors of bone marrow and stem cells to facilitate life-saving transplants. The registry at Hadassah Hospital is the only one in the world for Arabs and will no doubt save the lives not only of Arab Israelis but also of some citizens of Arab countries, not a single one of which has a registry of its own.

      • Jack Green
        November 12, 2017, 4:48 pm

        Brewer

        Early Genetic Proof Ashkenazi Jews Are From the Middle East

        The authors conclude that Ashkenazi Jews, like their non-Ashkenazi co-religionists, originate in the Middle East.

        http://jewsdownunder.com/2015/11/04/early-genetic-proof-ashkenazi-jews-are-from-middle-east/
        ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        Ashkenazi Jews no doubt emerged from hybridization events between Middle Eastern and European females

        http://nationalvanguard.org/2015/07/ashkenazi-jews-can-be-identified-at-100-accuracy-by-dna-tests/
        ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        Recent reports have reaffirmed that the AJ population has a common Middle Eastern origin with other Jewish Diaspora populations

        http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html
        ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        Ashkenazi Jews trace their ancestry to a genetically diverse population in the Middle East

        http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470015902.a0020818.pub2/abstract;jsessionid=993307FB32ABA42325F7CDDE4489D67A.f01t04?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=
        ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        The study found a fairly even mix of European and Middle-Eastern ancestry in the population

        http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dna-traces-jewish-history/

      • Mooser
        November 12, 2017, 4:49 pm

        “Israel has…/…of its own.” “Jack Green”

        Hey, “Jack”, what’s big, very grey all over, and always carries a trunk?

      • Jack Green
        November 12, 2017, 5:04 pm

        echinococcus

        ” eliminating the creator of the problem solves the problem.”

        Not necessarily. Suppose that I crash into a car & 20 other cars are destroyed & their drivers & passengers killed or injured in a chain reaction. If I leave the scene, do people come back to life, are their injuries healed, are their cars uncrushed?

      • Brewer
        November 12, 2017, 8:13 pm

        Jack.
        I strongly recommend that you read the articles to which you have linked as well as the Eran Elhaik work I linked to above (which is the most recent and comprehensive, taking into account other factors such as linguistic geography) if you are interested in the topic for its own sake for it is extraneous to the main issue.
        As I said above:
        It is very complex and, in the end, a really rather stupid argument when applied to the Israel/Palestine question.
        Who, in their right mind, can assert that a tract of land belongs to them by virtue of their DNA?
        Perhaps you might like to comment on that. Do you believe that land ownership is somehow connected to genetics?

      • gamal
        November 12, 2017, 8:21 pm

        “Ashkenazi Jews no doubt emerged from hybridization events

        between Middle Eastern and European females”

        “matrilineal” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

      • oldgeezer
        November 12, 2017, 9:14 pm

        @jack

        Are you blindly copying and pasting links without reading them or checking the credibility of the site?

        If not blindly copying how often do you do your research at neo nazi, white supremacist sites such as national vanguard?

      • echinococcus
        November 13, 2017, 1:03 am

        The Green Jack hasn’t gotten the memo that the world he is living in has no relationship to the normal one.

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 11:29 am

        “Who, in their right mind, can assert that a tract of land belongs to them by virtue of their DNA?”

        Anybody who can find somebody else to agree with him. Then they can both say it!

        The Zionists only know the arguments they use to convince themselves and other Zionists.

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 11:32 am

        “Are you blindly copying and pasting links without reading them or checking the credibility of the site?”

        You bet.
        “Jack Green” makes great use of ‘artificial intelligence’.

      • amigo
        November 13, 2017, 11:45 am

        “If I leave the scene, do people come back to life, are their injuries healed, are their cars uncrushed?”Jumping Jack green.

        Jack , are you completely stupid.

        The conversation is about removing the cause of the problem so it will not happen again.

        That means taking dangerous drivers like you off the road , if we stick with your analogy.

        Nothing to do with Lazarus style rising from the dead.

        When are you going to condemn Jewish terrorism and acknowledge the Nakba.

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 3:38 pm

        “If I leave the scene, do people come back to life, are their injuries healed, are their cars uncrushed?”

        No. But they don’t usually tell you what a good citizen you are for staying at the scene and then let you drive away. Especially if you have neither a license or liability insurance, and your car isn’t registered.

      • Jack Green
        November 15, 2017, 3:22 pm

        eljay

        Jewish supremacism is as illegitimate as any other form of supremacism. “

        So you consider American supremacy illegitimate where the US gives preference to Americans returning from abroad over non-Americans entering the US?

        “Jewish State” is a religion-supremacist construct. I do not accept it.”

        Would you accept “Jewish State” if it meant Jewish people rather than Jewish religion e.g. atheists would be considered part of the Jewish people if the atheist’s parents, grandparents, etc. were all Jews over someone who had just converted to the Jewish religion?

        “Colonialism in the 21st century is unacceptable.”

        If Palestinian refugees returned to Israel & built settlements, would you consider that to be unacceptable colonialism?

        ” Israel has been stealing, occupying and colonizing territory outside of its / Partition borders for ~70 years. I do not accept it.”

        If you are just taking back your own land, that’s not stealing.

        Why should Israel respect Partition borders when they’re not official borders? Official borders are set by treaty, but there’s no treaty between the Israelis & the Palestinians. Because they’re not official borders, Israel has every right to change its declared borders because changing its declared borders would not be violating any treaty because there is no treaty.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 15, 2017, 4:22 pm

        Jack Green:

        “So you consider American supremacy illegitimate where the US gives preference to Americans returning from abroad over non-Americans entering the US?”

        Do you not see how desperate and pathetic your comments are?

        Here is a Swedish celebrity Gina Dirawi.

        https://www.instagram.com/ginadirawi/?hl=sv

        She was born in Sweden, but both of her parents are Palestinians. Her parents grew up in refugee camp in Lebanon, but they both have living family/relatives in Israel/Palestine.

        Gina’s mother’s family is from Village Sha’ab in North Israel, where from she has made an episode for her TV-series called “Ginas Värld” – Gina’s World.*

        https://areena.yle.fi/1-2642629?autoplay=true

        Now she can go to visit her relatives there, but she has not got the same possiblity to move back there as YOU do, like there is NO BIRTH RIGHT for her to return to her mother’s home village, unlike you, who claim you have some special DNA from somewhere like 2000 years ago..??

        So Jack why is that?? Where is your proof, that you have any connection whatsoever to whatsoever part of that land?? And why does this girl who has a clear proof of where here family comes from, not have the right you have for this land??

        Do you understand how F***ING SICK AND RIDICILOUS you sound like???

        When standing next to this girl, what is your explanation to her: Why have you got a birth right to that land while she has not????

        *Sorry that this program can probably not be seen outside Finland..

      • Mooser
        November 15, 2017, 4:28 pm

        “If you are just taking back your own land, that’s not stealing.”

        Gee, sometimes I spend as much as twenty seconds wondering if Zionism is the natural effervescence of a burgeoning people, fraught with the brutal insularity that a self-sufficient people may well possess,
        or the desperate and ultimately self-destructive fantasizing of a traumatized people.

      • eljay
        November 16, 2017, 7:42 am

        || amigo: … Jack , are you completely stupid. … ||

        Initially I thought he was pretending to be stupid but over time he has managed to convince me that he is, in fact, completely stupid.

    • Jack Green
      November 11, 2017, 12:27 pm

      Ossinev

      Even members of the same family don’t always get along.

      • Mooser
        November 11, 2017, 12:57 pm

        “Even members of the same family don’t always get along.”

        Uh-oh! The “genetic thread” is starting to fray!

        BTW, “Jack Green” you don’t think the huge rush of out-marriage (well over 50% by all accounts) in the last 100 years has changed the Jewish genetic make-up? Well, it has, and as the Jewish genes are diluted, well, there goes Zionism.

      • MHughes976
        November 12, 2017, 12:30 pm

        The mention of family quarrels comes from Ostrer in the Haaretz article: he mentions Cain and Abel, though Isaac and Ishmael would be rather more to the point. The family quarrel idea is a pivot away from genetics, because the rights of blood brotherhood suddenly mean nothing if there is an ideological or religious split and one brother is on the wrong side of it. If religious continuity from ancient times begins to look like a very weak reason for exclusive political rights then the argument will switch back quickly to the more scientific sounding world of DNA.

      • amigo
        November 12, 2017, 2:17 pm

        Jack Green , I have repeatedly requested a clarification on your position on Jewish terrorism.

        So far your response was to state that Jewish terrorism was a response to Palestinian terrorrism.

        Please clarify if you view that as justification for Jewish terrorists (Irgun/Lehi/stern)throwing bombs at open markets , or planting bombs on buses , killing unarmed innocent men , women and children in the process.

        Surely you would not want the other posters here and the thousands of readers to think Jack Green supports and justifies terrorism.

        And before you ask , NO , I do not support any form of terrorism –no matter who carries it out.

        So jacko , which is it —YES or No.

        Note well , jacko , I intend to hound you as long as it takes until you either come clean or preferably leave the site.

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 12:05 pm

        “Ostrer in the Haaretz article: he mentions Cain and Abel”

        Weren’t Cain and Abel drowned in the Flood? After the flood everything started fresh with Shem and Ham and Japheth(?) right?

        If I’m wrong, please forgive me, my wife sent my Scripture-knowledge shirt-cuffs to the cleaners.

      • gamal
        November 13, 2017, 2:22 pm

        “Jewish genes are diluted”

        it is weird to see people deploy “genetic” arguments, it reminds me of times gone by, there was a play “Man Friday” in which the Crusoe character argued in the same manner as Jack, plucking details which support an argument which can never be fully fleshed out….in sane company……anyway this is only wikipedia but its a good write up its got Peter O’toole, on behalf of Hibernia, and one Richard Rountree representing humanity, that human that you want to invite round and whose company entails no dangers

        due for a remake,

        “One day, Crusoe falls back into his old delusions of being a superior being. He had been trying to teach Friday in a mock-up school for a while, ridiculously complete with a chalkboard. We see that the topic of the day, written on the chalkboard, is “civilization”. Obviously, for Crusoe this is a culmination point, where his concepts are ultimately confronted with those of Friday. He gets in a frenzy and binds Friday to a pole, then holds a frightful, lunatic sermon about the superiority of his ways while threatening Friday with his gun. In the end, he shoots, but not at Friday, but at his own talking parrot, which had been his sole companion before Friday’s arrival. After that shocking experience, Friday gives up his attempts to change Crusoe; the friendship also ends, leaving only the relationship of Crusoe as master and Friday as a paid servant.

        After several years, Friday has accumulated 2,000 gold coins, the price that Crusoe once mockingly called for the hut and all his belongings. Friday now turns Crusoe’s western ways against him. Catching him by surprise, he throws the gold on a table, declaring himself the owner of the material property; swiftly, he takes control of baffled Crusoe’s gun, and coldly declares that the master-servant-relationship is inverted now. He forces Crusoe to build a solid raft, and both men put to sea for Friday’s home island. When they have arrived there, Friday tells the story of their relationship to the gathered tribe, which reacts with astonishment and amusement about the strange ways of Crusoe. When the latter requests to join the tribe, proposing that he could teach the children, Friday strongly speaks against him, saying that “the only thing he (Crusoe) teaches is fear.” So Crusoe is rejected and returns to his solitary island, where he commits suicide.”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Friday_(film)

      • Mooser
        November 13, 2017, 3:43 pm

        “it is weird to see people deploy “genetic” arguments,”

        “gamal”, if that wasn’t an argument Zionists find convincing, we wouldn’t be hearing it (and seeing it doubled, tripled squared and cubed-down, too)

        We hold ourselves to be an aristocracy now. No cheap knock-offs, our Jewish designer genes.

      • amigo
        November 15, 2017, 4:05 pm

        Jack green —Why do you support Jewish terrorism and deny the NAKBA.

      • Jack Green
        November 15, 2017, 7:08 pm

        Kaisa of Finland

        The USA has Affirmative Action which gives preference to African-Americans, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans & women. Do you oppose Affirmative Action?

  24. Ossinev
    November 11, 2017, 1:55 pm

    @Jack Green
    “Even members of the same family don’t always get along”
    Well I come from a reasonably sized family and I swear none of them have stolen my house occupied my garden put up a big concrete wall around it and forced me to go through checkpoints to visit my kin. They certainly haven`t tried to force me to leave my country.

    • RoHa
      November 11, 2017, 8:16 pm

      So they are not going to send you to govern New South Wales?

  25. amigo
    November 14, 2017, 12:32 pm

    Question for the Moderators .

    Does a consistent refusal to acknowledge the Nakba , or the Holocaust for that matter , constitute –Nakba or Holocaust denial.

    Thnks.

    • RoHa
      November 14, 2017, 10:27 pm

      From a logical point of view, I would say it isn’t.

  26. amigo
    November 15, 2017, 4:01 pm

    As promised jacko.

    Jack Green , I have repeatedly requested a clarification on your position on Jewish terrorism.

    So far your response was to state that Jewish terrorism was a defence against Palestinian terrorism.

    Please clarify if you view that as justification for Jewish terrorists (Irgun/Lehi/stern)throwing bombs at open markets , or planting bombs on buses , killing unarmed innocent men , women and children in the process.

    Surely you would not want the other posters here and the thousands of readers to think Jack Green supports and justifies terrorism.

    And before you ask , NO , I do not support any form of terrorism –no matter who carries it out.

    So jacko , which is it —YES or No.

    Note well , jacko , I intend to hound you as long as it takes until you either come clean or preferably leave the site.

  27. amigo
    November 15, 2017, 4:20 pm

    “If someone takes something that he believes is his, then it’s not theft.”jack green

    If the Nazis believed they had a right to carry out the holocaust , does that mean it wasn,t a crime.

    But never mind all that as you are far too thick skulled to discuss reality on this planet but let,s get back to your support for Jewish terrorism.

    “PALESTINIAN TERRORISM CAME BEFORE JEWISH TERRORISM”.JACK GREEN.

    Since you made this statement two weeks ago , on 10 or I1 occasions , I have given you the opportunity to clarify your position on Jewish terrorism , that is to say , do you oppose it or support it.

    You have to date refused to answer this question and intimating you had by claiming ,”some of what you write does not pass moderation” .I then suggested that you rewrite those posts , but you have chosen to ignore that.

    I CAN ONLY ASSUME THAT GIVEN YOUR REFUSAL TO CONDEMN JEWISH TERRORISM AND ACKNOWLEDGE THE NAKBA , YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM AND DENY THE NAKBA.

    And just in case you ask , I repeat , I condemn any form of terrorism , no matter who commits it.

    So jack green , hence forward , expect to find this post on MW at least once every day

    • Jack Green
      November 15, 2017, 7:26 pm

      Kaisa of Finland

      Zionism Jews had been persecuted for centuries in majority-gentile countries. Even when not actively persecuting the Jews, the majority-gentile countries refused to give refuge to the Jews when they needed it. There would have been no Holocaust if majority-gentile countries would have allowed in Jewish refugees who were escaping from the Nazis. The idea of Zionism was that Jews would return to their homeland & have a majority-Jewish country because majority-gentile countries had failed to provide safety for the Jews.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 15, 2017, 8:33 pm

        Jack:

        “Zionism Jews had been persecuted for centuries..”

        Sorry to say, but you have got the same recording playing over and over again for sometime now. No real answers. I wish some day you will wake up and see the world with its full colours. It is worth it.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 15, 2017, 9:32 pm

        Jack, maybe this will help you..

      • RoHa
        November 15, 2017, 10:01 pm

        “There would have been no Holocaust if majority-gentile countries would have allowed in Jewish refugees who were escaping from the Nazis.”

        And the Zionists lobbied hard to prevent the majority-gentile countries from allowing in the Jewish refugees.

        More importantly, why is it so hard to learn correct conditionals?
        “”There would have been no Holocaust if majority-gentile countries had allowed in Jewish refugees…”

        “The idea of Zionism was that Jews would return to their homeland & have a majority-Jewish country because majority-gentile countries had failed to provide safety for the Jews.”

        I am not an expert on the history of Zionism, but I have read that this was not the primary idea of Zionism, and was cooked up as an excuse later.

        Be that as it may, Jews do not have a right to “safety” at the expense of the safely of others. Jews simply are not more important than other people.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        November 16, 2017, 9:24 am

        RoHa:

        ” Jews simply are not more important than other people..”

        Exactly. Not the only victims and not more important than others.

      • MHughes976
        November 16, 2017, 12:43 pm

        Many Jewish people did make their way to safer countries as the dire events of WW2 came into prospect. Many of my generation have known people who arrived via the Kindertransport, which the UK government did not finance but to which it set no numerical limits. This reduced the effect of the dire events.

      • Mooser
        November 16, 2017, 4:34 pm

        “Sorry to say, but you have got the same recording playing over and over again for sometime now.”

        The Zionists are always aghast, shocked and dismayed when the same explanations and arguments which convince themselves and other Zionists don’t seem to satisfy anybody else.

  28. Jack Green
    November 15, 2017, 7:04 pm

    amigo

    Once again, I condemn all terrorism including Palestinian terrorism & Jewish terrorism.
    I hope that this makes it past the moderators.

    • Brewer
      November 16, 2017, 2:16 am

      Goodness me. This thread is still going.
      Jack.
      “If you are just taking back your own land, that’s not stealing.”
      I am sure the police would agree with you but first they would want to see some proof of ownership. What do you or your fellow Zionists have Jack? Can any of you point to a plot of land and truthfully state that this is where my ancestors lived? How do you know that they did not sell that plot before departing? Bear in mind that few Historians believe that there was a general expulsion of Jews around 70 AD.
      In fact, the so-called “diaspora” began much earlier:

      “As early as the middle of the 2nd century BCE the Jewish author of the third book of the Oracula Sibyllina addressed the “chosen people,” saying: “Every land is full of thee and every sea.” The most diverse witnesses, such as Strabo, Philo, Seneca, Luke (the author of the Acts of the Apostles), Cicero, and Josephus, all mention Jewish populations in the cities of the Mediterranean basin. See also History of the Jews in India and History of the Jews in China for pre-Roman (and post-) diasporic populations.” – Wikipedia.

      Let me now quote Israel Bartal, Avraham Harman Professor of Jewish History, and the former Dean of the Faculty of Humanities at Hebrew University. Since 2006 he is the chair of the Historical Society of Israel.
      “No “nationalist” Jewish historian has ever tried to conceal the well-known fact that conversions to Judaism had a major impact on Jewish history in the ancient period and in the early Middle Ages. Although the myth of an exile from the Jewish homeland (Palestine) does exist in popular Israeli culture, it is negligible in serious Jewish historical discussions. Important groups in the Jewish national movement expressed reservations regarding this myth or denied it completely…….
      ,,,,,,The central book of the Zionist “Jerusalem School,” “Toldot am yisrael” (“History of the Jewish People,” published in 1969), speaks extensively of the Jewish communities that existed in the Diaspora before the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and whose total population exceeded that of the tiny Jewish community in Palestine. As one would expect from a work that reflects a profound knowledge of scholarly studies in the field, the Zionist “Toldot am yisrael” explains that the number of Jews in the Diaspora during the ancient period was as high as it was because of conversion, a phenomenon that “was widespread in the Jewish Diaspora in the late Second Temple period …. Many of the converts to Judaism came from the gentile population of Palestine, but an even greater number of converts could be found in the Jewish Diaspora communities in both the East and the West “

      https://web.archive.org/web/20090416045211/http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/999386.html

      My question to you is, which group retain title to real estate and which do your ancestors belong to?
      Jews who migrated of their own accord?
      Converts to Judaism?
      Rebels who were taken as slaves by the Romans?

      Do you know? Any Land Court in a sane society would surely need to know before issuing judgment.

      • MHughes976
        November 16, 2017, 1:16 pm

        No one can trace genealogy to particular individuals in ancient times and at that rate no one has the sort of individual claim to individual, specified items of property that one associates with genealogy and inheritance.. Steven Weitzman, in his recent Origin of the Jews, thinks that the family of Confucius might be the sole exception. In any event, individual property rights do not automatically create rights of citizenship and all individual rights are subject to changes in the social contract, which defines rights for any particular society and territory, when changes these are reasonably agreed and – at least over time – unchallenged. Thus no one can claim personal property or political rights in Italy on the strength of edicts from Julius Caesar.

      • Mooser
        November 16, 2017, 4:37 pm

        Zionism is the struggle of some Jewish people to find the small pond in which they can be the biggest fish.

      • RoHa
        November 16, 2017, 10:34 pm

        “the family of Confucius might be the sole exception”

        That’s if Confucius existed in the first place.

        http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthread8b83.html?t=113317

        “Thus no one can claim personal property or political rights in Italy on the strength of edicts from Julius Caesar.”

        I base my claims on the edicts from my Latin teacher. I know he existed.

      • Keith
        November 17, 2017, 12:33 am

        MOOSER- “Zionism is the struggle of some Jewish people to find the small pond in which they can be the biggest fish.”

        You couldn’t be more wrong. Few American Jewish Zionists have any intention of immigrating to Israel where they can be the “biggest fish.” They intend Zionism to be the modern unifier of the Jewish people, thereby utilizing kinship solidarity to advance their objective of becoming the predominant group influencing empire. I have come to believe that the Jewish struggle for power within a Gentile society is the historical norm, not the exception.

      • Mooser
        November 17, 2017, 12:53 pm

        “You couldn’t be more wrong”

        Sorry, I’ve got a bad habit of doing that.

        ” They intend Zionism to be…/…the historical norm, not the exception.”

        Ummmm, you think it’s gone as far as all that? There’s no telling what some people will say or do, of course.
        And no matter what the general demographic picture or degree of discipline among those who identify as Jewish, the mission, (as you outline it here: “utilizing kinship solidarity to advance their objective of becoming the predominant group influencing empire”) could be accomplished by a few hundred families, given the proper resources! The mind reels.

    • Jack Green
      November 16, 2017, 10:40 am

      Kaisa of Finland

      That there are other victims doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t help Jews, too.

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