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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
erdogan loses a lot of points for even responding to this; makes him look incredibly petty and insecure. and really, bringing up this "hypocrisy" of auster was really a sophomoric attempt to sidestep the charge that turkey is suppressing human rights
he wasn't even going to attempt to defend the arrests and suppression of free speech in his country?
auster won that round hands down.
I dont comment on here much, but i remember once making a point about turkish politics and someone came in and started talking about how attaturk was a "crypto-jew". He then pressed on about how pervasive crypto-jews are in the world and repeated this nonsense in a few other threads. I'm not jewish, but i am firm about separating anti-zionists from anti-semites. I hope this site will be even more proacctive about people who bring in that sort of conspiratorial crap here. It has no place at mondoweiss and turns off a lot of supporters of the cause.
please dont do this. it is so much busier than it used to be. one of the great features of mondoweiss was how easy it was to read the articles (and how fast it would load on mobile devices).
take a page out of the steve jobs' handbook and keep the site streamlined and clean. we dont need all this clutter on the sides. and we especially dont need this facebook, twitter, stumble sidebar.
thank you
no more negotiations.
either israel plays ball, halts its settlement constructions and begins dismantling them or those settlements are removed through massive palestinian/israeli protests.
well there is a third option, and that is that those settlements, and parts of israel, are taken during a regional war. the way israel is pissing everyone off in the region, i think this option is getting more likely by the day.
so enough with the fucking peace process.
and i take it the only arabs you feign to care about are those that arent butchered by jews.
@ultra_bravo
dont worry phil; democracy in the arab world will mean the end of zionism. there is simply no way israel, in it's current form, will be sustainable when it is surrounded by democratic, modern arab states. the west acted in libya because of the uprisings in tunisia and egypt; the entire narrative of the arab people shifted within a few months and suddenly the west had to be on their side.
as benny morris admitted a few years ago: the walls are closing in for israel. they know they are already constrained to act against lebanon, they have angered the powerful, democratic turks, and pretty soon, they will be limited in their options against gaza. all these things point to a massive amount of pressure on israel as it currently exists.
we are going to see a palestinian tahrir moment, but first, their newly free neighbors must secure their governments as successful democracies.
stay patient. :)
holy crap. i got goosebumps when reading that. that was just amazing. wow
beautiful post, phil.
on the one hand, the revolutions in the ME will force israel to take action now rather then later. on the other hand, they no long know what egypt's response will be. egypt wont go to war for gaza, but i highly doubt theyd be willing to keep the border closed to refugees and arms this time so a new onslaught can take many uncertain directions. plus, it could help further destabilize regimes in the gulf and force a potential catastrophe for american allies.
itd be nice if someone said: if you touch gaza we'll attack you. but no one has the balls to do that (yet)
god, eee you really play dense. a democratic egypt would never have blockaded gaza, it would be far less willing to tolerate israel's assaults on the territories. egypt was the only nation capable of seriously threatening israel's existence; and while i dont think its much of a military power (at all) israelis recognize that the nation has enormous potential. 80 million people and the center of the arab world. if egypt becomes democratic, itll pretty much mean the end of israeli impunity.
amazing. i want to cry when i see this.
"He’s schizophrenic. It really is as simple as that."
wow, what an incredibly prejudiced, broad sweeping generalization against mentally ill people. it's simply incredible that, in this day and age, people believe that schizophrenia is enough for someone to go on a muderous rampage. there are at least a couple million schizophrenics in america, the vast majority of which are not violent and not harmful to society.
schizophrenics do not exist in a social bubble; they are influenced by people and ideas permeating in society. it's intellectually lazy and dishonest to simply lay this on this patients (unconfirmed) illness. there are a whole host of other factors that came into play before he pulled that trigger, and it's certainly worth investigating and discussing.
intellectual honesty? really?
i'm impressed and happy with this piece, but let's not forget about his mean-spirited and irrational attack against andrew sullivan a few months ago. or his countless articles obfuscating the I/P issue and his role in the iraq war buildup.
it's nice that he has some clarity on this issue, but it doesn't expunge all the awful stuff he's done in the past. and all the stuff i'm sure he will do very soon.
Stunning.
That word is appropriate both for your piece and the Atlantic's decision to run Goldberg's idiocy.
we really need an ignore button. i really have little patience for people with such a piss poor satire detector.
this is a fantastic piece.
thank you
the only thing to say here is BDS.
BDS.
BDS.
@Ultra_Bravo
according to this, erdogan has ruled out sending the navy:
link to todayszaman.com
like i said, we'll see. it all depends on how pissed off the turkish public is.
yes, i absolutely reject any and all attacks on civilians.
"You really think it is a good idea to ramp up the tension?"
yes. i think it's a great idea.
yeah, definitely not for godschosen plan. it's actually rather disgusting.
no i want either a fullscale assault by turkey against israel's military or a massive non-violent response by international activists.
i have to admit, that's a better, more sophisticated response then i've been wanting today. i just wanted turkey to go to war against israel and end this.
but yeah, the non-violent way would probably work too....
time for erdogan to decide how far he's willing to push this. he's already said he's not willing to deploy the turkish navy in the Mediterranean sea; which i think is incredibly stupid.
let's see how angry the turkish street gets; turks are notoriously nationalistic, i have a hard time believing they will let this go.
i would love for them to launch another flotilla, this time under the protection of the massive turkish navy. force another confrontation with israel and lets see what they do about it.
Where the fuck is the Turkish Navy? This was an act of war.
lol. awesome.
my dear winston, there is no israeli lobby.
i'm with witty on this.
he pwned her.
it's interesting that you mentioned that about haaretz, i left a pretty benign comment over there early today, never got approved.
makes me wonder...
i agree.
i'm not even sure much diplomatic straining will occur, but maybe if enough of the populace perceives it that way, then it will happen.
and again, that's a good thing, in my book.
"One prospect is that the Islamic right in Turkey are seeking a provocation with Israel for street cred for their internal political posturing, as occurs very often in the Arab world."
turkey isn't part of the arab world.
this is silly. turkey's navy would whip israel's. it would be a real war, something israel is scared to death of.
nothing will come out of this. the israelis will probably stop the ship, and if this helicopter thing is true, the turks will probably land in gaza w/ a few supplies.
no one wins or loses then.
please refrain from using the word "bravo" in threads that i post in. it gets very confusing.
:D
Why? Israel's war against Gaza has convinced me that the society has completely lost it, it can't be trusted to make peace on it's own and it certainly will not bend to civil disobedience, nonviolent resistance, or terrorism. No, the only thing that will stop it is an actual military threat.
The Sinai would still be occupied by Israel if Egypt didn't launch a massive, frighteningly devastating attack in 1973. And yeah, Israel was able to turn it around when Nixon dumped the entire European arsenal into Israel, but it was a wakeup call for everyone and it essentially ended up suing for peace. Egypt was in a much stronger negotiating power, and they ended up getting all their land back.
I am fully convinced that the path to peace in this region is fullscale war, or at least the threat of war. And no, Israel dropping white phosphorous on the Gazans or bombing Beirut doesn't count as war,; that was burning ants with a magnifying glass. Let's see how these heroic soldiers fare against a nation like Turkey.
Let's see all these right-wing commentators and all the chickenhawks in congress talk about how great and special the IDF is when it's up against someone that can actually fight back.
"Is Turkey really interested in a war over Gaza?"
I hope so.
this was brilliant.
You are the Benny Morris of Mondoweiss, Witty. Easily one of the most mendacious posters I have ever encountered on the internet.
Don't worry about Benny Morris, Norman. The "walls are closing in" for him and his ilk.
It was very appropriate of Finkelstein to be arguing against Morris' own work; Dear ol Benny forgets what he said regarding Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. But I do think Norman should've dropped it and went with the more pressing issue at hand.
Unfortunately, there was no KO here, but I think that's because the format of the debate was problematic, not because Finkelstein did a poor job.
Back to fucking crypto-jew stuff, MRW?
The Ottoman Empire was in a war against Russia, the Armenians used that war to start an uprising against the Ottomons. Turkey forcibly removed hundreds of thousands of them, which fits the definition of ethnic cleansing. I'm not sure if the word genocide can really be used here, but regardless this was on the Ottoman Empire, not "Jews", you twit.
I hope so, because that would just further strain relations between the two countries.
I think that article touches on more of the reality of the situation then we let on here and other activist sites. I really wish BDS could work, but our highly globalized world and Israel's competitive advantage in the marketplace makes it incredibly far fetched.
But the irony is that Israel can act smug and indignant about the movement, but if and when BDS fails, the next stage will be full-scale war. Israelis think that they don't have to worry about that because of their military superiority, but they're a nation of 7 million people surrounded by a sea of enemies. The odds of lasting in that environment get slimmer everyday. As long as this conflict continues, Arabs and Muslims all over the world will work on figuring a way to take them down. So yes, Israel, enjoy your "hummus" and your Intel offices and your film festivals, while letting this conflict fester. As Benny Morris himself admitted during the Gaza offensive, the walls are closing in. BDS might be the last thing that could save them.
I'm pretty sure Sullivan knows about Mondoweiss, but if anything I sent him a pic of Palestinian Na'avi protesters and he put them on his site (link to andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com
Did Phil get more traffic from that? I hope so.
My God, guys. Yonira is absolutely correct, Turkey was one of the first members of NATO.
Please fact check.
This is sounding like Pajamas Media now.
a really good breakdown on Eregenekon:
link to en.wikipedia.org
btw, I was wrong, the plot was discovered in 2007. Those 2000s really flew by.
As far as I know, Shmuel is not reporting the news accurately. There was a *plot* to overthrow the government last year called Ergenekon but it was stopped by authorities and dozens of commanders and former military officers were arrested. More arrests occurred yesterday.
This is actually good news, the less role the military is able to play in domestic affairs, the more likely the Turkish will push Palestinian issue.
link to todayszaman.com
RoHa:
I think you're far too optimistic. The reason why the Berlin Airlift worked was because the Soviets wouldn't risk firing on the USAF. As far as I can tell, the Turkish Navy is not involved in this.
Secondly, NATO wouldn't be involved in this, they are obligated to fight under Article V only when a member nation is attacked. (which is why NATO wasn't involved in Iraq, but is involved in Afghanistan).
We'll see what develops from this, if anything. I personally hope Erdogan sends in his Navy to protect these boats but I doubt he'll be able to.
First of all, I don't believe it will EVER get to that point. Either these boats will turn around when faced by the Israeli navy or, if Turkey really pushes things, Israel will back down and they will be allowed in. Israel would never risk a war with Turkey.
But I hope you're right about Likud being crazy enough to provoke war with them. I really really really hope you're right about this one, Witty. I dream of the day the Turks enter this conflict and take on the Israelis head on. Let's see how Israel does facing a nation of 85million soldiers and state of the art equipment. We'll see how tough, bold, amazing those "defensive" forces are then.
And the best part about the entire thing would be that Turkey would be doing the right thing by trying to send in humanitarian aid. They'd be absolutely right and Israel would be wrong.
So please tell me more about your worries and concerns, they help me sleep better at night.
I would love for Israel to dare spark a war with Turkey.
Absolutely.
The Turkish Gov't has to be willing to back this thing up, otherwise it has no chance of succeeding. Does anyone have any information if that is what is happening here? Will the Turks be willing to back up the boats with their own navy?
I doubt it, but if they do, that'll be a game changer.
Unless I'm mistaken, the headline of this blog post is misleading, Turkey itself isn't providing this aid, a Turkish humanitarian group is going to try. I think that's a huge difference, and I'm not too optimistic of this amounting to much.
That said, lol @ the comments on the website linked in the OP. Those guys are cuuuuuckoo.
this is easily one of the greatest posts i've seen on this site.
thank you.
ooops i meant the bugs from District 9.
but yes, this was a fantastic idea overall. they should keep doing stuff like this, eventually people will pay attention.
They should also dress up as Ewoks and the Bugs from Avatar.
It's sad to say, but this is really the only sort of stuff that can resonate with Americans. The vast majority simply cannot garner any sympathy for Palestinians.
I'm glad Phil's already on this. You guys should post over at NYT's comment section:
link to bit.ly
Especially you, Citizen. Your parody was perfect.
Keep up the pressure.
Cliff, your argument is all over the place. Let's focus on MRW's use of "crypto-jew" in reference to Ataturk. There are no "facts" that can confirm that he was a crypto-jew and, most importantly, there are no "facts" that show that being a crypto jew even matters. What difference does it even make?
This crypto-jew libel is used against virtually anyone who challenges the status quo, whether that be academics, business leaders, or politicians. It's a purposefully vague, underhanded term meant to silence debate.
So let's focus on Mustafa Kemal here. What specificially did he do to advance "jewish interests" in the world? And what were "jewish interests" in 1920 Turkey?
I'm not a Turk, and I do not hold any starry eyed views of the nation, but it's pretty clear from anyone reading history that Kemal was a nationalist who believed strongly in the Turkish state. He saw his state falling apart, and he responded drastically to save it.
And it worked. That's why we're all applauding Turkey right now. They are a powerful, secular Muslim nation due to the efforts of Mustafa Kemal.
Denigrating him (and jews) with the term "crypto-jew" is highly illogical and offensive in this discussion.
No, he said that if Israel used to Turkish airspace to attack Iran, Turkey's response would be like an earthquake.
Almost there...
MRW referred to Attaturk as a "crypto-Jew", I've seen comments like that before on here, they're very annoying. Anti-semites pop up on Stephen Walt's blog, as well and they just totally detract from the conversation.
I would not want these comment sections to be closed, I think they're great for people to further discuss the articles, but somehow certain things shouldn't be tolerated. Also, while I don't agree with many of the zionists who post here, I think this blog would be very boring without them. Hopefully they continue to share their POV and they aren't heckled or mocked for their views.
Bibi, and most of Israel are delusional; they believe the entire world is against them simply because they are Jewish, they are incapable of self-reflection and absolutely drunk with power. That's why I support BDS, to make them wake up, but I don't think the movement will get very far.
The war against Lebanon and now Gaza showed one thing very clearly to me: Israel will only stop its paranoid onslaughts when someone powerful physically forces or threatens them to stop. Protests, boycotts, none of that matters as long as they have America's support. This is really basic realpolitik, Egypt knew that in 1973, they forced peace terms by showing that they were capable of fighting back.
Obviously, this isn't some big secret, the US has known about this for a long time, which is why they have propped up brutal, but friendly dictators throughout the region. The idea (whether fully true or not) is that if those nations were allowed to be democratic, there would be far more pressure and more danger for Israel.
But here's the best part about this: the US and the EU have called on Turkey to be more democratic, and they have. And guess what? The generals are being neutered, and the people of Turkey are demanding les ties with Israel.
If this is allowed to happen, in a few years everything will change.
I don't think it's *that* far fetched to imagine a day the powerful Turkish navy insists on delivering aid to Gaza. Or Turkey tells Israel that if they step into Lebanon or Syria's airspace they will take them down.
Game. Changer.
I am very disturbed by people making comments like "crypto-Jew" and such. These sorts of things should not be tolerated here. I am opposed to zionism, not Jews. I really think people who use anti-semitic language should be banned from this site. The articles themselves are great, and many of the commenters make excellent points, but the quality gets diminished when people make outlandish statements like that.
There is absolutely no doubt that Israel needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Israel. In Turkey, Israel had a powerful counterweight to hostile Arabs, they had airspace for their jets, they had a trade partner. Yes Turkey gets weapons from Israel, and the Israeli lobby has protected their interests in the US, but neither of those things are necessary in the long term. The Lobby was mostly a means to prevent Armenian Genocide claims from proceeding in the US Congress, but now that Turkey is opening up to Armenia those claims will most likely be dropped. Turkey can always get weapons from the Russians (who've they gotten closer to) or the Chinese. It's not that big of a deal.
I hope what we're witnessing here is a realignment of the power structures in the ME. Just imagine what would happen if Turkey created a defensive pact with Syria or other Arab nations. That sort of thing was unimaginable 10 years ago, but over the past couple years, relations between the former enemies have improved drastically, there is open movement and open trade now. If such a pact were formed, it would mean an end to Israeli hegemony. Literally, the end. Israel knows that Turkey is the only nation in the region capable of not just fighting them, but actually winning a war against them. It will be a massive game changer.
As long as Turkey remains on the path towards democratization, I think this scenario is actually inevitable.
Bush said the same thing.
The only "positive" I saw was evidence that Obama doesn't believe the BS he's been forced to say regarding Israel.
It's been very obvious from the beginning that he knows what's really going on over there, the fact that he's forced to play a different line speaks volumes. And it also makes him come across as worse than Bush.
yes, that too.
also, his theory on Lost.
I'm glad she did this, but she should've been much more direct. She should've said: Currently, Israel and Egypt are denying food, medicine, clothes, and even electricity to Gaza. In fact, after after Israel's war against Gaza last year, it has been accused of enormous human rights violations by Justice Goldstone and every human rights organization in the area, so why are we still giving billions of dollars to the nation?
Be blunt so he can't wiggle out at all.
Witty- What do you call a cop punching a person in the face repeatedly?
Words can't begin to describe my utter disgust of Egypt. The entire nation flipped out over a lost football match, but they sit on their asses while Gazans are starved and killed.
Maybe they'll wake up when Israel beats them in football, but until that day, eff them.
They need to be treated like pariahs.