Total number of comments: 129 (since 2011-04-10 10:30:43)
Israeli, Liberal, Humanist
Showing comments 129 - 101Page: 2 1
Is there a difference between the moral right of Jews to return to Spain, and the right of Palestinians to return to (What is now) Israel?
As I said, the only difference is the number of years which passed. As years go by, the number of living people who were directly affected by the Nakba diminishes and with it the moral validity of the claim to return.
I empathize with their pain, their anger and their frustration.
But instead of stubbornly demanding that ALL refugees and their descendants be entitled to return, the palestinians should insist that Israel recognize its moral debt to the refugees and discuss ways to compensate.
Also, I think that BDS will gain more popular support worldwide if it stresses its demand from Israel to retreat from the OT and less demand on the ROR.
Well simple equity would require that Israel at least repatriate or resettle one Palestinian refugee in Israel for every settler it wants to remain beyond the Green Line in any final settlement, unless of course it doesn’t want to actually solve the conflict.
Then stop the Israeli Law of Return
I agree. It should be replaced with a humanistic law which grants automatic citizenship only to persecuted jews.
Pay reparations and get the hell out of the OT.
I agree of course.
The owners of the country don’t need any “naturalization”. The “current residents” have no “naturalization”;
We live in a world which is made of nation states. Unfortunately for you, Israel exists and so are its citizens. Deal with it.
their presence is illegal, as they were smuggled in
False generalizations. Some smuggled in but most of them legally immigrated to an area which was part of the ottoman empire.
, with absolutely no connection to the country, against the refusal by the owners of the country."
Wrong again. Most of them had generations lasting connection to the land. Check their prayer books.
The ROR is a moral right. However, an actual naturalization of millions of Palestinians in the state of Israel would be equally immoral and destructive towards the current residents of the land. It is ALMOST analogues to contemporary Spain having to absorb 45 million jews. "Almost" - not because of the numbers but because more years have passed since the jews were expelled from Spain than the years passed since palestinians were expelled from their land.
A reasonable and moral compromise would be that the state of Israel settle a certain amount of Palestinians within its borders and compensate the other. That is, unless you care more about punishing israelis than actually solving this conflict in the maximum utilitarian way.
I'm surprised to go over the 193 comments to this post to find out that not one of them mentions the fact that the statistically the USA is a much more dangerous place for US presidents link to en.wikipedia.org
Also, the racism and hate towards Obama in the USA, among "Tea party" members and supporters seems to exceed the hate of Israelis.
So yeah, there's a chance that a right wing fanatic israeli would assassinate Obama if he came to Israel, but I would say the odds are higher if lets say - he visits one of infamous redneck US states
The Islamic Jihad has responded [positively] to the truce effort,
Of course they did. They shoot at civilians and then shed crocodile tears when their militants gets killed.
I don’t get why they start firing rockets in the first place
Why did OBL start a war with America?
They are fanatic fundamentalists. That's why...
israel wants war
Islamic Jihad wants peace? LOL.
Islamic Jihad initiated this round of violence by shooting rockets at Civilians, last week. I have many friends in the southern parts of Israel who have to wake up their children in the middle of the night to siren alarms and walk them to security rooms.
Anyone who considers himself/herself a humanist should equally denounce the warmongers in both sides of this conflict.
Tal, if the state of Israel is dismantled, what horrible things will happen to you?
I'll tell you what will happen. We will become a minority inside an arab muslim country. We will become a Yugoslavia, a Lebanon.
Those who have the means will emigrate and the weak ones will be damned. Will you then be satisfied?
Who would be harmed, and who would benefit from the dismantling of the USA?
You know damn well that a overwhelming majority of Americans will never dream of letting it happen. But you know what, A world without borders is a nice slogan. Start it at your own home. Suggest in your community to allow anyone in the world who wishes to immigrate to the USA to do so.
Creating a worldwide community is indeed a noble cause but it should be achieved slowly like was done in Europe - by maintaining the sovereignty of the local communities
The Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed by your racist apartheid State did not ethnically cleanse anybody. They are no responsible for something that happened 1000s of years ago.
I did not justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
I am saying that Jewish Nationalism has not done more crimes than other movements throughout history which were based on ethnics and/or religion. Back then it wasn't called nationalism, they had other names for it.
You are barking on the wrong tree. I do not justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians or the keeping of WB Palestinians without civil rights.
The problem is that your rage towards Israelis drives your hate and your wish to create injustices in order to amend another injustice.
Why should non-Jewish nationalists sit back while they see something wrong happening?
They shouldn't. BDS is a relatively moral choice to fight Israeli injustices.
However, If BDS continues after Israel is no longer occupying Palestinians in the WB, then reasonable people will start equating it with the sanctions used against against jews back in
a nut like you
I would appreciate if you not use this despicable ad hominem attitude. It only weakens your case.
Israel’s turn will come. Sooner, hopefully, than later.
Israel is my home.
You, wishing for my home to dismantle, are cruel.
I do not wish the USA to dismantle although It has perpetrated far worse sins than the state of Israel ever has.
"The notion that Anti-Zionist accept comparable acts of Arab racism is a straw man. "
I never claimed that Anti-Zionists accept Arab Racism. It is YOU who is erecting a straw man.
My claim is that Anti-zionists respect Arab Nationalism while rejecting Jewish Nationalism.
"The Arabs were indigenous"
Their ancestors were conquerors and ethnic cleansers as much as the zionists are. History does not stop whenever you say so.
" and did not establish nations that excluded indigenous Jews."
Jews were never truly seen as equals under arab rule which was based on Islam notions. As long as the jews accepted Islam state superiority they were tolerated.
When Arabs established their nation states they kicked out the Jews.
Bottom line - we deserve to have our nation state in which hebrew/jewish culture is dominant. We have no right to rule over Palestinians in the WB and we have no right to discriminate against non-jews in Israel but if these 2 issues are amended, than we are good as any other nation in this world.
Therefore it is legitimate to criticize Israel. It is not legitimate to call for the dismantle of the state of Israel. Especially not 60 years after the holocaust.
The US is different. It's ethos is not related to ethnics although religion (Christianity of course) does play a major role. Luckily for the Jews, Judaism is perceived as part and parcel of the Judeo-Christian spirit of America. Muslims in America are less lucky in this way.
In Arab countries Jews were perceived as "Dhimmi". They were protected but never equal.
I believe that Jews in Arab countries were treated better than Jews in Europe. Still, I think that they have always felt like guests and naturally dreamed of the day they will be able to establish a sovereign community in eretz israel. I don't understand the anti zionists who understand and sympathize with Arab pride and Arab nationalism but refuse to understand these same sentiments when expressed by Jews.
Let me ask you this - if israel treated it's Arab citizens the same way that Egypt treats it's Coptic citizens, would you cease to be an anti Zionist?
A different Tal but nonetheless I agree with every word
Of course I advocate for the withdrawal to 67 borders together with most of the settlements. Settlements which are very close to the border should be annexed to israel in exchange for other lands which should be annexed to Palestine.
Since the Palestinians see the ROR as their most important goal, I don't think that peace will prevail after such a withdrawal. Nevertheless, It is our best strategy, moral wise and practical wise.
Why don't I take it with Richard Witty? I do it in Hebrew with his likes. At Mondoweiss I feel like a hated Jew who need to stand up for the rights of his own people, against people who will rejoice over the destruction of "the Zionist state".
So its just the name that bothers you? How about if we call it an Israeli state and we cancel the law of return? Then everyone can immigrate to Israel and become Israeli.
Now let me tell you a secret. The situation is pretty close to what i described. People from The Philippines, Africa and other regions are settling in Israel as labor migrants. Their children speak hebrew as their primary language, they identify with the Israeli people and they wish to stay here as Israelis.
For me, it is a good sign of normalcy of the Israeli identity.
Now, its different with many of the arabs in Israel. They will not settle for "just" being equal citizens of the Israeli state. They want to materialize their own separate national identity.
Its Fine. Many national minorities want the same thing. I think that if a Palestine exists just a couple of dozens of miles east, they could live with that.
For example, John is saying:
The Palestinian State would be an Arab state
If you call for a 1SS and you're saying that it would be an Arab state then you are advocating a discrimination against Israelis.
A "Single Democratic state" is a nice slogan but when you get down to it you see that there's no real viability to it. The arabs and jews living in the land of Israel/Palestine are very different in the languages they speak, religions, national identities, national narratives, ethoses etc.
I suspect that anti-zionists use this slogan as a smoke screen until Arabs have the upper hand in this land. Then they will not protest / or come to our help when our national rights are taken away from us.
the disintegration of Zionism and its dream of the "democratic Jewish state."
I wonder how is it that Anti-Zionists do not see their own discrimination against the Israelis.
Why are the Palestinians entitled to live in their own ethnocentric Arab state, while the Israelis are not entitled to keep their jewish state along the 67' borders?
I am labeling them right wing because they will not settle for less than the whole of eretz Palestine. If it walks like a duck....
My opinion is that BDS will continue to gain popularity up until the moment that a Government in Israel will start withdrawing the IDF and settlements from the west bank as a result of an agreement with a Palestinian Govt/Auth.
I don't think that many people will boycott Israel over the ROR.
The Palestinian right wing knows that and therefor it is viciously attacking the PA, calling them "Collaborators". It reminds me of the atmosphere in Israel during 1995 and we should hope it will not end the same way...
So once again American soldiers are involved in war crimes.
Are there any demonstrations in the US over these issues? Acute op-eds in MSM? Who are your Amira Hass and Gidoen Levys exposing these crimes and writing about them in MSM?
I'm seriously asking these informative questions, not because I'm trying to measure for measure with you.
There is no such a law. This is regular anti-Zionist Hasbara bullshit.
Ashkenazi Jews are the elite. You can look at average income, education or child poverty. Anyway you like. Israel is a caste system with the Ashkenazis as Brahmins. Gaza has the untouchables.
According to this logic, the USA is a caste system with Whites as Brahamins and Blacks / Latin Americans as the lower castes. I promise you that a Mizrahi in Israel is much more likely to be rich than a black guy in America.
Didn't they update you? The Palestinian internationals (abunimah and friends) have decided that The UN approach is a trap invented by the "PA collaborators". They will fight until the last drop of Palestinian blood ... In the occupied territories.
Israelis need to go back to the days of constantly having to look over their shoulders when they get on a bus or when they go out for a drink or a pizza.
This is one of the most anti human and morally bankrupt statements i have ever read here.
Are you wishing that suicide bombers will return to our streets, murdering innocent civilians?
The ex-patriot and diaspora populations don’t necessarily have the legal right to represent the Palestinians who are being blockaded, bombed, and killed.
2 States Solution or 1 State solution, He will stay in the comfort of Chicago. I say, only the current residents of Palestine and Israel should be allowed to decide on whether they wish to live in 2SS or 1SS as long as human rights and civil rights are guaranteed for both peoples.
It's not the occupation, stupid, it's Zionism, stupid.
Anti-Zionism is immoral as any other ideology which supports national rights for some people while denying others of these same rights.
Annie, the economic blockade is immoral and cast lead was a war crime but Hamas is also responsible for what's going on in gaza and for crimes against Israelis. A normal party would have tried to build a future for the people under it's responsibility but Hamas are religious fanatics.
Why do I "choose" to engage you guys? Because you are fanatic anti Israelis. I think that you hate us more than the Palestinians hate us. You are obsessed with finding every bit of information which would present the israelis in a bad way. You truly believe that we are nazis.
Who do I think should engage right wingers? First of all, when I think I can convince someone I try to do it in a calm manner. Theres just no use in fighting with family and friends.
International pressure combined with non violent Palestinian resistance are probably the best strategies.
I think those who are more “pro-Israel” here but support the 2SS should be spending time on center/right wing blogs and working on their family/community to bring them towards peace….
I try to do it as much as I can but there's a cost to it. You might find yourself engaged in harsh conversations saying things you didn't plan to say and hurt feelings of close friends and family. I learned not to get too emotional because it only pushes people away. There's no use. No one is ever convinced when the fight is over and you just remain with a bitter taste.
I must say that I am skeptical regarding the will of most palestinians to accept a 2ss which does include a full right of return. I follow political blogs such as electronic intifada and others, hear the angry responses to the "palestine papers" accusing the PA of betrayal and read pro Palestinian commentors on sites like MW demanding the return of all refugees.
Nevertheless, I think that israel should end the occupation of the west bank even if we can't reach an agreement with Palestinians. We should try our best to do so but if we can't then we're strong enough to unitarily withdraw from most of the territory until an agreement is possible. the problem with that is our experience with the gaza withdrawal which showed us that unitarily withdrawing does not ensure ceasefire.
Good analysis. Rational and unimpassioned.
I personally would have voted for a 2SS on the basis of 67 lines with very minor adjustments which would annex to Israel settlements which are very close to the green line (and Ariel is not close so it must be evacuated), in exchange for land in Israel proper.
Also, I would have voted for a recognition of Israel's responsibility to the refugees problem and absorption of up to 100,000 arab refugees into Israel.
East Jerusalem should be part of Palestine except for the Jewish quarter in old city.
How many Palestinians do you think would have supported such an offer?
So Annie, do you deny that most people on MW hate Zionism and zionists? Do you deny that they hate israelis and israel?
For God's sake, be honest with yourself and read how your herd expresses itself in the most vile ways.
The theme that “they don’t belong there” is itself a fascist theme. Look at it in the mirror.
EVERY people migrated. Only some of current Palestinians are “original” whatever that means.
Well said, Richard.
Thanks buddy for your moral support. It's 1 am here and i have to get up for work tomorrow. Now that I know that one decent person exists here, I can hit the sack already ;-)
Nobody here is suggesting that Jews shouldn't have a homeland? Where exactly do you generously offer us to have a homeland? Palestine was as good as any other place on the map. If we tried to establish our homeland in Germany they would have blamed us for trying to steal their land... Errr... Never mind
Did anyone say something about the Hebrew language? No. But but the Hebrew language did not revive before Zionism came to the world and it will die again if israel will not exist.
Did I say it should be illegal to intermarry? Why do you put words in my mouth? I'm just saying that considering the rate of assimilation of Jews in america, one more culture in our globalized world would become extinct.
Why do you think that Zionism was unable to fulfill itself without dispossessing the Arabs? Imagine the Arabs agreeing to split the land as decided in UN resolution 181 and the Arab militias not attacking the Jews - The war of 48 would have never happened and the Jews would have established their state in part of Palestine.
Can you imagine an American nation without dispossessing the native american Indians? It would be much smaller than it is today but still it would have existed. Could america have thrived without slavery and genocide? I don't know. That's for you to answer. Not my business. Unless you make "undoing israel" your business. Then it would be my business to remind you of your nation's criminal record and why you have no right do demand that Israelis give up their nation state.
So now all the Jewish Israelis want a home of their own
No, but we think that our neo liberal economy has gone too far. If we can't own a house we would at least like to be able to rent an apartment in a decent neighborhood and have a decent public transportation system which would exempt us from owning an expensive car which consumes expensive gasoline.
We want an economy which serves the people and not people serving the economy. What's the use of living in a rich country if your salary stays the same and you need your parents financial aid even when you both hold to full time jobs.
It's not racist to criticize Zionism but it is racist to refer to Zionism and zionists as if their essence is stealing and murdering. Much more people were murdered in the name of Islam and yet I would never dream of equating Islam with racism but I would definitely criticize some aspects of islam like I criticize certain aspects in Judaism
How does the Kurd national movement work without Kurd supremacy? How did Americanism work without dispossession? Oh wait, it didn't work...
No. There is no humanism in you
I honestly don't get it. Do you think the Kurds are not entitled for a homeland somewhere in the middle east? How about the Tibetans? Why is it ok for the Arabs to have 22 ethnic Arab states and not ok to have one Jewish homeland? Should the hebrew language become extinct like many other languages of peoples who were left without a homeland? Should the Jewish people become extinct like is happening in america because of intermarriages and atheism?
A Jewish homeland once existed in the land of israel so you can say that we've implemented our right of return. Anyway, the American nation was established on the noble notion of creating a haven in the land which belonged to other people. Still, the American education system praises the founding fathers of america although some of them were slave owners. Of course you also get to hear about their evil sides but Howard Zinn is still considered an alternative pedagogical book.
I think children in israel should be taught about the noble notions in Zionism and at the same time be taught about the Nakba.
Judaism, like any other religion, is whatever we decide to make it.
Bravo mooser. Now replace Judaism with Zionism and religion with nationalism and you would learn an important lesson about humanism.
Is it considered politicly correct in the US to make fun of a non native English speaker's English?
Go to link to mondoweiss.net and search for Shingo's reply to me. You will also find some anti-Semites slurs regarding Israelis and American money.
You are right about zionism being like any other national movements. In israel I am one of those who are very critical of my govts policies against the Palestinians
Dear Lillian Rosengarten,
You are not anti-semite if you harshly condemn the acts of the government of Israel. No need to for that straw man.
The problem is with anti-zionists who express racist remarks about Israelis and/or Zionists. For example: the slur "Ziofacist" often used by commentors in MW, is anti-semite because it is a slur meant to deligitimize the entire jewish national movement.
I could give you many more examples but theres no need. All you have to do is skim reading MW comments., they are full of racist slurs and hate talk against Israelis , Zionists and Jews.
And seeing that “minhag hamakom” (the local custom) on this blog is to insult the person you comment on
The understatement of this post
You already colonized America. Now that you're done and got away with exterminating all the native american indians you think you deserve a medal for granting citizenship to whats left of them.
Calif is almost 40% mexican american? Why are you so proud of yourself? Wow... Good for you. The Galil in Israel is almost 40% arab Israelis.
The fact remains - Americans would never agree to replace the USA with a one state "Amerixico". Israelis would also never agree to a Palestine-Israel in which Israelis would be treated like jews were treated in arab countries before Zionism - as "dhimmi"(link to en.wikipedia.org)
“Bleed the US TaxPayer”?
You are a shameless anti-semite who exploits the discrimination in MW against people who are not anti-zionists. My full opinion about your dubious character was sadly rejected by the moderator.
I have no discussion with your ilk.
Ok so just answer this - Are Americans any less nationalist than Israelis? Would they ever agree to become one state with Mexico? What gives you the right to demand from the Israelis what you'd never expect your own people to agree to?
The only thing which you have a moral right to demand from israel is to end the occupation of Palestinians in the west bank and to treat all it's citizens equally. That's it.
Great idea. Let's start with a one state solution between the USA and Mexico. No more border issues - Mexicans endlessly trying to steal the border into the US. All Mexicans will get a vote for congress and presidency. Down with Apartheid border between USA and Mexico!
I must be dreaming. You supremacists americans will never agree to let all these mexicans enter your holy land. Heck, you came uninvited to the region, you got rid of the native american indians, you would never let in these mexicans who most of them are descendants of inter-marriages between indians and whites.
the GOI rules the state of Israel. Some of them are of Ashkenazi origins and some are Sfaradaim origins.
Sure the Ashkenazim have more of the resources. Kinda reminds of WASPs in the USA. Remind me, Taxi, how many non protestant presidents in America did you have? like 1 right?
annie, its beginning to sound like im on trial with you here. You cant force your logic on me. You BELIEVE that much of Israel's assets are stolen. I BELIEVE that most of its assets (reflected in its GNP) were honestly achieved in hard work and brains.
I think that Israel would have been doing financially even better without these stolen resources from the west bank.
Its the immorality of these acts which we should be discussing. I agree that its disgusting.
Sorry, I thought you said most.
But even "much" is exaggerated. Israel's achievements reflect in its GNP which has little to do with land and water resources,
will reduce the public support significantly.
you mean totally.
Annie, regarding the palestinian refugees (actually most of them are sons and daughters of the 48' refugees) who are not the citizens of Israel - i think that they should be compensated by Israel and some of them should have the choice to become Israeli citizens, all of them would probably have the right to become citizens of Palestine. surely most of them will not be allowed to become Israeli citizens. It makes no sense to establish 2 palestinian nation states (3 if you count Jordan).
You're usually fair and honest, annie, but many of the people here express themselves in the most hateful way when they talk about Israelis and/or Zionists. Do i have to give you examples? Just read a comment above you remarking the fact that we have done even better than the Nazis.
Annie, there is a very small elite of intellectuals in Israel (I would send you to the Kedma.co.il site but its in hebrew) who consider themselves arab-jews. Besides that exist very small communities of jews left in some arab countries. I guess some of them would consider themselves arab-jews. Besides these very small numbers, Nada. The terms do not contradict. It's reality which contradicts.
Actually the Palestinians will gain more than what the native american indians and native australians gained - they will gain a sovereign state on part of what was once their land.
No Annie. Its not true that most of these assets were stolen.
The land of Israel/Palestine is very poor in natural resources including land and water, so we didn't have much to steal from. Israel's high-tech Industry, Agriculture, Bio-tech, Science etc. are our own achievements.
Reading the comments on this site I wonder why is it that intelligent people feel they need to portray their rivals as pure evil instead of pointing out the evil deeds and honestly acknowledging the good deeds.
Palestinians in Israel (Sorry, I meant "Israeli Arabs") also have citizenship. Its worth just a bit more than what citizenship for blacks in the US before the 60's was worth... so I guess they have hope...
As for the west bank - I don't consider it Israel. I hope people there will soon enough become the citizens of a free Palestine.
The ONLY just solution if for Israel to be disbanded – and returned to the Palestinians and the Jews who lived together before Zionism
Right after the USA and Australia are disbanded and returned to the native Americans and native Australians.
the German Nazis only lasted maybe 15 – so Israel has done well for itself.
You are lasting more than 200 years so I guess all we have to do is wait enough time and our sins will be whitewashed like yours.
BTW, ever heard of Godwin's law? The discussion with you is over.
Apartheid Ashkenazim-ruled israel.
What have you been smoking? Too much Anti-Zionist Hasbara stuff.
Also I see that like your buddy above, you are also a wise white American who knows better than my grandparents about their cultural and genetic identity.
It’s great to see another pro Israeli voice joining the forum.
Thanks but I've been posting on and off for a couple of months now
What do you mean by “long”? Zionism was only about 70 years old by the time Israel was established. As the Mizrahi in Israel will attest to, most of hem migrated to Israel for messianic reasons, but seeing as Zionism was (and always has been) a secular political movement, they were not Zionists.
They were in their 20's when Israel was established. They saw themselves as zionists long before that. The fact that you dismiss their self perceived identity does not change that.
How they saw themselves is irrelevant. The designation of Arab can apply to any religion.
Oh, i get it. Who cares about how they see themselves. Who cares that their ancestors did not come from the Arabian peninsula. Your'e the educated white person from America and you know better.
That's what we tell the so called "Palestinians" in Israel. We try to explain to them that they are Israeli arabs but they just dont listen.
BTW, There were other reasons for building these towns, you know.
Yes we know – though stealing land, stealing resources and ethnic cleasing.
Right. That's all we do. Steal.
What’s disconnected from reality is your inability to akowledge that back in the days when the US stole anythin from the Native American Indians, such acts were not considered crimes against humanity as they are today. Much like slavery.
Oh I get it. At the time there wasn't a law against it so i guess your ancestors are not criminals like mine. Also, there wasn't a law against genocide at the time of the Nazis so...
It’s truly pathetic listenign to you lame brained Israeli apologists try to hark back to the 19th century and realier to justify the crimes Israel continues to commit to the present day.
What makes you think i'm justifying these crimes? I think its the other way around - You are justifying American crimes by claiming that there was a law against them at the time.
Are you serious? That’s like arguing that a thief or a rapist wants the same thing that their victims desire – to be happy.
It takes an ex-thief-rapist-en-slaver-murderer to know one
A just solution is going to require Israel to make amends for it’s past crimes and return what does not belong to it. Israel is not capable of such justice.
Was America able to return all the land its stole to the native american Indians? Hmmm.. yes. It gave them reserves.
What we've got here is some honest reporting of whats going on in Israel nowadays and some anti-zionist hate talk.
the hastily-built towns outside of the center, which served as place-holders to keep Palestinians from reclaiming their land after 1948, populated by state decree by the Jews brought in from Europe’s Displaced Persons camps and by the Arab Jews brought in with little say about their fate, in collusions by despotic leaders from Muslim countries and the nnw Jewish state, soon after 1948.
If my late grandmother which immigrated from Tunisia on 1948 could hear you now, she would have LOL in shock. There is nothing more remote to the truth than referring to her as an "Arab Jew" who was brought in with little say about her fate.
First of all, they were Zionist long before the state of Israel was established. Second, They did not see themselves as Arab at all but rather as belonging to the Jewish people who will some day be lucky enough to return to their homeland.
Finally, they were not brought in to one of these "hastily-built towns outside of the center" but actually ended up in Yaffo.
BTW, There were other reasons for building these towns, you know. Its not all about doing evil to the Palestinians but also about providing shelters for immigrants. As Americans, you should know something about absorbing your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
Dena also writes:
before Netanyahu and the neo-liberals sold off the assets - which had originally been taken over from the Palestinians, between the end of WWI and the 1948.
What would you think of an American complaining about George W. Bush selling the economy's assets which were taken over from the Native American Indians?
Well, Dena's statement about Israel sounds just as disconnected from reality. Some of Israel's land was stolen from the arabs, just as American land was stolen from the Indians but 2 generations before my generation worked VERY HARD in the fields and factories to build up the assets which Israel has today.
All that is not to say we should not bravely look at our past and present, admit our sins and search for reconciliation with the Palestinians.
Also Dena, as an ex-Israeli who probably still has family and friends in Israel, have you ever thought about considering what the Israelis desire and not only what the Palestinians desire? A Just solution to the conflict would be one that would consider the national aspirations of both peoples therefor the only viable solution is still the 2 states solution, no matter how foolishly the current government is trying to bury it.
hophmi is right. If you are truly seeking for peace and justice you should respect the right of the jewish people in the land of Israel/Palestine for self determination. The "one state solution" is a facade for stealing this right from the jews. The only just solution is the 2 states solution with controlled ROR.
whats wrong with how we say: חומוס?
I've been to Arlington. I think i saw there some stars of David. But as I understood from American they are not complaining about a headstone but about an official Memorial for KIA soldiers who some of them were probably jews.
Hillary is just another Zionist whore.
I would think twice about using this kind of language which reminds many of us of darker days....
Thanks for bringing this brilliant essay to my attention. I'll go read it in hebrew now since i have a subscription to this elite newspaper.
Her following line is something that many of the people here should seriously ponder about.
But no historical narrative upholding Palestinian hopes and suffering can dispense with Jewish hopes and suffering. Zionism was an authentic national movement, and any attempt to demonize it (and denounce the State of Israel ) while otherwise "having nothing against" the Jewish people (and disclaiming anti-Semitism ) is a historical non sequitur.
They are constantly doing things like this. Why do you suppose that is?
Hmmm... Good question. Jews, you know. As always, As anywhere else in the world. Trying to steal our beloved polk.
I though you said that America is not a christian country.
If its not, then why would you support a christian religious symbol over a jewish symbol or a muslim symbol?
Given the assumption that the US is not a christian country (unlike Israel which is a jewish country), i would think that you'd support putting jewish, hindu and muslim religious symbols everywhere the christian cross is erected.
How can one white guy be racist toward another white guy, Tal?
Have you ever heard of the Holocaust?
Racism means having negative feelings about a group.
Hmmm... You mean like somebody who has negative feelings about Israelis?
Good music, Good lyrics, Good cause
Well said, clenchner.
"Why is it, GF, that you think Jews must live apart from everyone else and why you deserve an “ethnically” (or whatever flavor of the day definition you apply to your particularly Judaism) cleansed of anyone else who would threaten your tyranny of the majority?"
1. We don't want to live apart from everyone else. We just want to preserve our cultural identity - Our religion, our hebrew language, our arts... and... we want have an insurance policy if Jews anywhere in this world are ever again persecuted.
2. We are not "pure". We are already 75% jews of endless origins and colors, 5% non jews/ non arabs and 20% arabs. It is great that we are diverse. How about pick on Japan for example, which is much less diverse but still don't allow free immigration to their "ethnically superior" pure Island?
"Palestinians neither need nor desire the destruction of the State of Israel to achieve self-determination. They need a fair deal. That will come, inshaAllah, be’ezrat haShem, through negotiation and no other means."
I agree with the "not needing to destruct the state of Israel" part, but I disagree about the negotiations only means. This Israeli govt will need to get pressured a bit by the US or the International community (BDS?) in order to start negotiating seriously for 2ss.
Bottom line: 1ss is a "never again". We will always need a state of our own, no matter how small it is. Keep on working harder for the 2ss.
You dont know what Americanism is? It's like Franceism or Englandism or Zionism.
Still dont know? Let me spell it out for you - It means putting the interests of your own people before the interests of other people. Isn't that what the Palestinians are also doing?
Who is this MHughes dude? I've never heard of him. And I studied Zionism in highschool.
Let me quote what Mya wrote in the article "I'm fed up ..." on this site:
" let’s turn to the source of it all, Theodor Herzl’s “The Jewish State”, we see: “But we shall give a home to our people.”
Nowhere is it written that this home will be only for our people. Some, including Shulamit Aloni, argue that Herzl did not seek to found a “Jewish state.” And Herzl didn’t discuss maintaining a Jewish majority here.
"isn’t Zionism an ideology in Israel that preaches Jewish supremacy over non-Jews?"
No. Zionism is the national movement of the Jewish people.
Its not about jews being better than other people, its about jews wanting to have a state of their own. Does being American patriot meant that you had to support or be a part of the Jim Crow in 1930's Alabama?
Our own Alabama is the west bank and many Zionist Israelis like myself are ashamed of it.
"You believe that the Jewish State by definition would discriminate against non-Jewish citizens."
No. Read my comment one more time.
I said that I dont believe that if we want a jewish state it has to discriminate like it does today.
It took the US nearly 200 years to stop discriminating against the blacks. Israel can go through the same changes.
Annie, with all the respect I don't need to be taught about discrimination of arabs in Israel.
"I have come across koranic passages that clearly define racism as ‘haram’ "
I know. And there are also many humanist progressive passages in the Torah. But unfortunately both religions hold to many racist/chauvinist/misogynistic traditions and beliefs.
Sadly, the laws of Israel discriminate against non jews.
Obama's groveling to the pro-Israeli lobby is indeed an insult to the Palestinians but I disagree that defining Israel as a jewish state carries by definition discrimination of non-jews citizens. Most countries in this world are made of ethnic majorities which are quite homogeneous in terms of religion, culture, language etc. Israel is no different in this matter. There is no mainstream ideology in secular Israel which preaches for supremacy of jews over non-jews. The jewish religion like other religions in this world (e.g. Islam) includes also racist beliefs as well as other non liberal values but most of the public does not embrace them.
Israel must cease to conquer the Palestinian people and start treating its arab citizens as equals, if it wishes to exist in the middle east and become a respected part of the international community, but it does not have to submit to the one state solution which is against the will of most of its population for some very good reasons.
"But the main point is what was done to the Aborigines in Australia was wrong. And what Israel is doing is wrong"
Let us agree on that.
It is not my hobby to compare crimes of nations but I think that as Americans and Australians you should be more modest and cautious when criticizing Israel because you are also dwelling happily on stolen lands.
Sumud - As for the process of reconciliation, I would love to watch the series which you've recommended. Of course it doesn't end with an apology and we have a long way to go but I think that you don't know enough about the media in Israel. We are world champions in making movies and writing books about the wrong doings which we have done to the Palestinians and they get great reviews in the major newspapers (The Jerusalem Post is a marginal paper here in Israel. It is published in english while the vast majority reads in hebrew or arabic). The problem is that those movie makers and authors do not represent the majority which votes for the kind of people you see in the Govt today...
To conclude, let me share with you a heart moving essay from yesterday, written by Akiva Eldar describing his granddaughter studying at a Bi-lingual school in Israel. In this school, they are taught to respect both narratives. I guess that most people on this site wouldn't appreciate this school because it doesn't hide or bash the zionist narrative, God forbid.
link to haaretz.com
"How sad it is to watch irresponsible adults, Jews and Arabs, developing expertise in the building of walls of alienation, fear and prejudice"
Even sadder to watch foreign bystanders do the same.
So you decide who is a legitimate nation and who is not? Kinda reminds me of the right wing fanatics who claim there's no such thing as Palestinian people because they are no different from the Syrians for example and they have immigrated to this region from other arab countries.
In an era where many cultures are disappearing because of globalization it is good that the jewish/hebrew culture is preserved and flourishes in the land of Israel.
And don't give me this BS about America not being a Christian country. It is very much is.
So are you a murderer?
dude, when your country retreats from all the lands it stole from the Indians, my country will retreat from the all the lands it stole from the arabs (which stole from the byzantines/romans which stole from ... the jews).
Do we have a deal?
Woody, Woody, Woody....
You live in the most hypocrite country in this world. Your neighborhoods are full of crime and murders whilst your people fight for the holy right to own a weapon (the holy second amendment). Your TV screens radiate violent movies and series but you if you say the word fuck during a talk show you get beeeeeeepppped.
Your politicians highly talk about "family values" and afterwards go home to screw their mistresses.
And now you've decided that it is not "politically correct" to refer to the Native Indians as "red men".
Well let repeat a favorite saying from the Vietnam war era:
"After the White men are done killing the Red men, they are sending the Black men to kill the Yellow men" .
Oh gee, they admitted their crimes. Good for them! 200 years after they were done crashing the indigenous population they apologize.
Oh, and If I'm a criminal because my house might be located on an arab property then you are a mega criminal for definitely living on the red men's property or on an aboriginal land if you are from Australia.
"I don’t hate Israelis I just think they are criminals"
LOL. OK, so what would you say if I stated: "I don't hate Americans I just think they are murderers because of what they did to the Vietnamese and to the Native Indians and to the Black Africans"
See, Israel's criminal past is no more severe than any other nation on this planet.
As for the present, I agree with you that the occupation of the west bank must end ASAP, and you have the moral right to act in any non violent way to stop it but it doesn't give you the right to be racist and hateful against Israelis.
Chaos, thats all BS.
My grandparents couldn't have been colonialist because no "mother country" sent them to this land. If you want to change the meaning of this term just so you can bash the Israelis which you hate so much then go ahead and blame the entire population of this planet for a whole history of constant moving between geographical regions on the expense of others.
Oh and the Catholic do not see themselves as a nation. Tough for you I guess. Why would they need to? There are already many states in this world where the catholics are a majority, and theres only ONE place under the sun where the Jews are a majority, where their culture and ancient language are maintained and their holidays are celebrated as national holidays. If I live in your christian country then i dont get a vacation from my work place to celebrate Passover but I get a vacation for Xmas, right? Fine with me, but please dont be hypocrite about not having a "catholic state".
My Grandfather escaped Nazi Germany after Hitler came to power. He arrived in Tel Aviv and built his life here. His parents were too old to start a new life elsewhere so they died in the Terezinstat concentration camp.
He gave birth to my father who was born on this land where he met my mother, daughter of a traditionalist Tunisian Jews who came to this land after yearning for Zion in their pray-books, for many years.
Now go ahead and call them "Colonialist". When you do that, stare right in the eyes of your Jewish spouse.
pjdude: "only one narrative is relevant the palestinian one"
Yup, someone is being honest here and exposing you all as what you truly are: fanatic zealots wallowing in your own hate and racism toward the Israeli people.
Cheers Richard Witty, for your basic humanist survey question.
As an Israeli, criticizing my govt harshly, demonstrating for the end of the 67' occupation of the west bank and the respect of human rights for everyone, I never stop loving both people who live on this land: Israeli and Palestinian.
I am proud to answer this survey with the only correct answer: One should respect both narratives because both represent legitimate national aspirations in the land of Israel / Palestine.
Mondo is indeed a negligible media source, but it is a good example for the kind of discourse which dominates the arab world.
"this is the zionist narrative"
No its not. I'm a zionist and i would never say such a thing. A narrative of a nation is much more complex than 2-3 statements. For me zionism means the national aspirations of the jewish people. It doesnt mean that I deny its wrong doings in the past and in the present. If a palestinian state will exist along side Israel and the arabs inside Israel will be granted full civil rights de-facto (contrary to national rights which some of them demand), then Israel will not be morally inferior to any other democracy.
"Non Zionist narrative is off limits in our mainstream American media"
Right Annie. But the same problem exists in the arab world and among anti-zionists in the academy, sites like Mondo and elsewhere. Anti-zionists express much hate toward Zionism and do not accept the zionist narrative as legitimate. True peace will endure when both sides respect each other's fears and hopes.
Wow... Great argument, MRW.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Avi, I'm sorry to inform you that you've just wasted your own valuable time by detailing Israel's wrong deeds and policies.
I know all about them and I agree they should be stopped and changed.
The difference is that I do not think that the creation of Israel and its founding ideology are some kind of outstanding evil in comparison to other nations in this world, especially not in comparison to the US of A.
I would say that Israel needs to change in a way which resembles post civil rights movement USA. It seems that an outside pressure is needed for the process to start but it has to come from a place of justice for all and respect for the national aspirations of both the Palestinians and the Israelis. It would be immoral to impose a solution which endangers the physical existence OR the cultural existence of either community in the land of Israel/Palestine. A Bi-National state or a full implementation of the right of return would be a solution of this kind because it would deteriorate the region to a Yugoslavia like chaos.
Told you long time ago. You just wouldn't listen.
If Zionism is illegitimate then if you are an honest person you should denounce "Americanism" as pure evil. If the establishment of the state of Israel is a mistake then the foundation of the United States is a lethal error.
When you express your racist hate to the state of Israel and to its residents (RoHa: "Israel is evil in conception, evil in creation, and evil in conduct. All I do is point out its demonic nature". Side note - Also the Nazis claimed that Jews are demons in their nature.) you make the life of Hasbara agents easy. They can truthfully dismiss you as antisemites.
Haaretz is not owned by the NYT. It is owned by the Israeli Shoken family except for 25% which are held by the german publisher DuMont.
Haaretz is an excellent newspaper and i'm proud to receive it every day to my front door. Now I'm waiting for similar investigations by the NYT on killings of civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan, by American army forces.
America's Founding Fathers also opposed colonialism, for example, so one might just as easily argue that they would oppose Israel's occupation of the West Bank and support the Palestinians' efforts to secure their own independence
But Zionism is not about "Occupying the west bank". It is about establishing a homeland for the Jews in the land of Israel. Thats it.
So maybe Oren is right after all. Maybe the founding fathers could be considered zionists.
And I have a regular degree from BGU :-) Just had to mention that. Sorry.
Citizen, everything you say is correct but is irrelevant to my argument. My point is: This 25% of direct aid which Israel gets does not "bleed you dry", nor does the whole 100% which goes out to the world. It doesn't have any effect on the American macro-economy.
Maybe the American public should reconsider giving away these funds in times like these when the credit score of the US is dropping but I doubt it would have any effect on both economies.
"i’d rather live in syria under assad"
No you don't annie.
Chaos, you are being ridiculous.
Israel has not "bled you dry". The funds transfered from the US to Israel amount to measly and negligible percent of the US total spendings and a large percentage of it returns as purchases from the US military industry.
The Bush regime had other interests in his mind aside from Israel when he declared wars on Afghanistan and Iraq. Oh, and the Jews are not responsible for 9/11.
"boy is it ever going to hurt when we fall on you"?
WTF? I suggest that you stop making empty threats. Let me quote a memorable: "Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash"
Should be "Economic strength" :-)
And YOUR hatred to Israel makes you underestimate its economical strength. Israel will not fail without US support. Under international pressure it will probably need to withdraw to 67 borders (which is good) but i would hardly call it a failure.
I suggest that you control you ego - People are never "nothing".
I mean a state in which the jewish/hebrew culture will be dominant. Just 1 state in the whole world where you get a holiday from work on Pessach and not on Christmas or Eid el Fitter. A state which its symbols will be jewish: the Menorah, the star of David. A state in which in its schools my children will study hebrew and jewish literature.
I do NOT mean a state where non jews will be class B citizens de facto or/and de jure. I know it is the situation today but i think it can be changed, just like the USA pretty much got rid of its discrimination against blacks.
You want examples? Thats easy.
Accusing Israeli Jews of being greedy (Danaa) and is racism. Actually its one of the classic forms of antisemitism. MRW insinuates that the Jews are responsible for slavery in the US. Zionism is accused in the replies for this post, for every evil which is going on in this world including the 9/11 events.
When people like me who are not anti-Zionists try to engage in conversation and exchange of ideas they are ridiculed and slurred in a childish way ("Zio-bots", Getting paid for writing here). I tend to believe that if we approached you in a face to face conversation you would have communicated in a more decent way.
I am writing here not because I am worried about the effect of anti-Israeli hasbara. Strange as it may sound to you, I think that BDS is a good choice to fight the occupation because it is non-violent and effective. The problem is that it's a slippery slope because you are no longer fighting only against injustices against the Palestinians but also promoting injustices against the Israeli Jews by delegitimizing their right for a nation-state in the land of Israel.
I read Phil's post again. It doesn't blame Zionism for all the suffering which this conflict has inflicted. One might as well interpret it as a blame of both sides for their stubbornness.
Dear Annie et al, no need to be hateful. I wasn't sent here by anyone. You should be glad that more people discover this site which is supposed to encourage "an exchange of ideas", even if they do not subscribe to 100% of your views, maybe just 86.3% of them.
You're right about the Israeli govt and its supporters misusing the delegitimization argument. However, this post and most of its replies prove that anti occupation moral sentiments may sometimes lure you in the slippery slope of racism and blind hate
Guys, it suddenly hit me. Do you know how you sound like? You sound just like the right wings fanatics when they talk about how Islam has caused humanity nothing more than misery and bloodsheds all over the globe.
Bottom line - Zionism in its essence is a national movement which emerged in the 19th century together will all other national movements. Nationalism has caused many wrong doings but nation-states are alive and kicking. We should concentrate on delegitimation of the occupation and not on delegitimizing the state of Israel or else you are not just being hypocrite and immoral but also harmful to your own cause.
"How many lives were mangled by the economic crisis that followed the 1973 war ?"
Your'e right. Egypt and the Egyptian people are responsible for so many crimes and the immoral invasion of Israel during the holy day of Yom Kippur is the least of them.
My sentiments exactly. BTW, You forgot "Americanism".
A Humanist, even handed response, for a change.
"Zionism, for the most part, has been a disaster on so many levels, in so many ways, for so many."
I can say the same about your country. America has been a disaster for Black Africans, Native Americans, Vietnamese, etc. Hey, maybe we should equate Americanism to Racism? Hmm.. No, we shouldn't, right? Because the ideology on which America was founded has nothing to do with racism. Hmmm... I guess that makes you a hypocrite, right?
You did not refute my accusation and I don't think that you are anti-Semite. I'm sure however that Dana's remark was racist even if she is indeed ex-Israeli (I wonder if she thinks that her parents are greedy).
If Dana's intention was to denounce Israelis as greedy because they are westerners then she would have included the 20% Arab population of Israel.
Just to clarify, I did not vote for this government and I strongly object its policies and practices against the Palestinians. However i think that it is hypocritical to denounce Zionism as a national movement while accepting all other national movements. Zionism has caused many injustices but so did most national movements including "Americanism". I prefer fighting for a reform in Zionism instead of sending back the Jews to Europe or reverting them to persecuted minority status in their own land.
" I kind of doubt Palestinians, as a whole are one tenth as greedy as the Judean population of Israel is"
One passage ago you denounced the generalizations made by westerners when analyzing will of Palestinians. Why are you doing the same when talking about Israelis.
I am an Israeli. I can honestly say that I am not greedy. Although Passover is coming soon and I started searching for Palestinian blood for my Matzos, I am not greedy of their lands. I hope they will soon have their state established on the basis of 67 borders with the help of the UN assembly.
p.s. Although I am not a native English speaker I think the correct term would be: "The Jewish population of Israel"
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