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Panic and shock sweep Cairo

Israel/Palestine
on 132 Comments

Waves of panic and shock are passing through Cairo tonight along with gusts of smoke and teargas. 

I was at a friend’s shop near Tahrir Square at 7 tonight when facebook began lighting up with news of the clashes at Maspero, the radio and television building a few blocks to the north. “The Christians are setting fire to cars,” my friend said. 

He said a new chapter in the revolution had been opened. We walked toward Tahrir and heard what sounded like firecrackers. “That is live fire,” he said with anguish. “Believe me, we lived through this for days.” 

He turned back but I wanted to see. Tahrir Square was filled with panicked people. The crowds moved first one way and then another. I heard more shots ringing out, it was not clear from where, and decided to get out of there. I walked northeast to meet friends at a restaurant.

In shops and businesses, people stood around watching the live feed from Maspero with worried faces. No one is happy in Cairo tonight. I went into a barber shop to watch, and the proprietor welcomed me, the Cairo friendliness unabated. He seemed embarrassed. “Christians and Muslims are together in our country, this is very unusual,” he said.

By 8:30, when my friends and I had finished eating, downtown was a panicky mess. Smoke wafted through the streets, and mobs of people ran one way and another without any purpose but an aura of hysteria. The door of my hotel was barred, and a dozen internationals had gathered in the television room. The management was urging everyone to stay inside. The wild rumors had begun. The highway to Alexandria was shut. And then it was open.

I left the hotel a few minutes later to make a pressing Skype call, and the streets were suddenly empty. People stood on balconies watching. Stores were shuttered. The redheaded clerk at the internet salon who always wears a tie wore a lugubrious expression. He said he was afraid for Cairo.

Cairo is on edge tonight. The English television channel is blaming the disturbances on outsiders. “It’s very obvious that there is a plot, a consiracy against Egypt,” Yehia Ghanim of Al Ahram newspaper said in an interview on Nile television. “”Some other party, a third party, is planning for a disaster in Egypt.”

Nile TV is utterly supportive of the army. It claims that 19 soldiers have been killed. While Al Jazeera and Reuters say that 19 civilians have been killed.

The Egyptians I know believe Facebook and social media more than any mainstream outlet. In the midst of the panic tonight, an English friend at my hotel says she saw a crowd swarming a man in Tahrir who had caught some of the action at Maspero on his mobile phone. She couldn’t get close enough to see, and then men urged her to leave the Square, in a hurry. Syria and Libya are out of control; and Egyptians are afraid of what the next chapter of their revolution holds. 

philweiss
About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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132 Responses

  1. Dan Crowther
    Dan Crowther
    October 9, 2011, 6:18 pm

    Cairo is on edge tonight. The English television channel is blaming the disturbances on outsiders. “It’s very obvious that there is a plot, a consiracy against Egypt,” Yehia Ghanim of Al Ahram newspaper said in an interview on Nile television. “”Some other party, a third party, is planning for a disaster in Egypt.”

    Any guesses?

    • dimadok
      dimadok
      October 9, 2011, 6:37 pm

      Do you have any?

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        October 9, 2011, 7:53 pm

        Do you have any?

        Is there a history of such behavior that might give us clue?

      • October 9, 2011, 10:05 pm

        Oh, Dimatok.

        Paranoid much?

        I mean golly, why would anyone insinuate that Israeli agent provacateurs would incite unrest?

        Don’t any chimes go off in your head, lights flicker on, that prompt you to honestly evaluate why you and your radical zionist ilk are so distrusted? I mean, are you too dense to realize you’ve MORE than earned it?

      • dimadok
        dimadok
        October 9, 2011, 10:42 pm

        Trust has nothing to do with it. Only facts matter- and the fact is that church was destroyed.
        Now POA step out from your fantasy bubble and think, was that the super secret Mossad operation or something that have been happening and will be happening in the society, were 10% are Christians and the rest are paranoid Muslims, being told that all their problems are caused by evil Zionists or those godless Christians?
        Think a bit and then come with the answer.
        Army shooting at the protesters, Mossad job? Please…

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 10:56 pm

        Are you going to tell us to look for nukes in Iraq again? Because we don’t want to hear it.

      • October 9, 2011, 11:09 pm

        “Only facts matter”

        ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

        From a zionist jackboot??? Facts??? Who the hell do you think you’re kidding?

        “Facts” have no place in your world. Lying is a science with you dirtbags.

      • eee
        eee
        October 9, 2011, 11:43 pm

        POA,

        You are clearly a neo-nazi. Blaming what is happening in Egypt on Zionists is despicable.

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 12:39 am

        why? our zionist government propped up mubarak for decades, are you suggesting we wouldn’t stoop so low as to ferment discord in egypt? pleeeease.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 12:57 am

        Annie,

        Yeah, right, it is possible that aliens did it also. There is an obvious explanation to what happened. Why do you insist on blaming Zionists when you have zero proof?

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 1:04 am

        i’m insisting nothing. but i’m not closing any doors either. why should i? again are you suggesting we wouldn’t stoop so low as to ferment discord in egypt?

        hello? that’s like claiming we don’t spy or do false flags or assassinations ..what would be the logic behind denying the possibility? because we are nice? because it hurts your feelings? because we’re moral? because what? you’ll call it a blood libel? bummer.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 1:10 am

        The rational thing to do is accept the obvious explanation and not suggest anything far fetched until you have some evidence.

        If you mistrust your government so much, you really shouldn’t live in the US.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        October 10, 2011, 1:43 am

        The rational thing to do is ask who benefits and question if those who benefit have done similar things in the past.

        If you mistrust your government so much, you really shouldn’t live in the US.

        Obviously you never figured out the difference between democracy and fascism.

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 10, 2011, 1:52 am

        annie, that is fine, i understand your skepticism. But you do it EVERY time! Every time the Palestinians commit a terror attack, the Egyptians kill Copts, Muslims kill other Muslims, you claim it is a conspiracy. All it really does is discredit your movement. It may not appear that way to you because of the readership of Mondoweiss, but I assure you if you try to pull this stuff outside of the anti-Israel echo-chamber of MW, your movement will suffer.

      • October 10, 2011, 9:51 am

        “You are clearly a neo-nazi. Blaming what is happening in Egypt on Zionists is despicable”

        I haven’t done that. Show me where I blame you and your ilk for “what is happening in Egypt”.

        I merely point out to one of your jackboots that Israel has nurtured such suspicion and theories by its own past actions.

        Your constant stream of hasbarist crap doesn’t exactly foster trust either, BTW.

      • thetumta
        thetumta
        October 10, 2011, 7:57 pm

        Zionism is the last gasp of Western Fascism in Palestine . If it wasn’t so, the collaborators , Begin and Shamir wouldn’t have escaped the death warrants for murder and terrorism issued by the Palestine Authority Police(Yes, there has been a state for 1000’s of years). They would have been hanged and rightfully so. I’m still waiting for Phil to wake to why he is an American. He won’t be having this discussion if it wasn’t so.
        Hej!

    • justicewillprevail
      justicewillprevail
      October 9, 2011, 6:46 pm

      Oh I can think of a couple who have form in this sort of thing already. It is a classic way of sowing confusion, terror and enabling coups and reactionary forces.

      • dimadok
        dimadok
        October 9, 2011, 8:43 pm

        Right the CIA and Mossad did it. They’ve being stirring it for the last centuries-that awful thing between peaceful Christians and Muslims.
        Also need to watch the Asuan damn now -there are Zio-moles digging underneath.
        “The demonstrators, who were protesting the destruction of a church in southern Egypt, torched two armoured vehicles, six private cars and a public bus, security sources said. Scores of suspected assailants were arrested in the aftermath.”
        http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/10/2011109155853144870.html
        Who is the Zionist conspirator then-the army or the Copts? And who has destroyed the church?
        Maybe SEALs or Shaetet flew in?

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 10:26 pm

        Keep telling us that the Lavon affair and the bombing of Jewish sites in Bagdad never happened, Mr. little-s shoah denier.

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 9, 2011, 10:29 pm

        Chaos, that was 50 years ago, I guess I don’t see the relevance. Christians are being massacred in Egypt, you were raised Catholic, doesn’t this affect you at all?

      • dimadok
        dimadok
        October 9, 2011, 10:31 pm

        What is has to do with Cairo NOW?

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 10:34 pm

        Well of course you don’t see the relevance, you were raised to always put the Holocaust first and foremost and how long ago was that?

        You’re going to run interference for Jewish terrorists no matter what they do, DBG.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        October 9, 2011, 10:35 pm

        “Christians are being massacred in Egypt, you were raised Catholic, doesn’t this affect you at all?”

        Do you think that Chaos should care more about Christians than about other people, and, if so, why?

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 10:54 pm

        Good call, RoHa. Yes, I’d like an answer to why I should turn my back on Catholic doctrine and only care about what happens to people in my same faith? Is that something your faith dictates, DBG? Because I’m pretty sure I’ve met Jews who don’t believe like you do.

      • anonymouscomments
        anonymouscomments
        October 9, 2011, 11:15 pm

        DBG
        “Christians are being massacred in Egypt, you were raised Catholic, doesn’t this affect you at all?”

        i am half jewish, raised christian, am atheist, and been to egypt 2 times (and israel 2x). guess what buddy, most of us on this site are WAY past tribalism and feeling pain for some group more than another, due to the randomness of our birth. but i admit, that is very typical of many people, and very notable with my jewish friends/family, and israelis (they go damn near nuts if a settler is killed, even my secular friends in tel aviv…. it shocks me, cause they never have any idea how many palestinians died over the previous weeks).

        get *over* your identity…. keep it, yes. but get the f over it, and let humanity define you a little more. such a biased and reactionary interaction with the world at large is a recipe for disaster. just look at israel…. or egypt…. or india…. anywhere where ethnoreligious violence pops up. or even the, *gasp*, shoah.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        October 9, 2011, 11:20 pm

        Chaos, that was 50 years ago, I guess I don’t see the relevance.

        Yes, DBG. I am sure that after being caught in the act twice, Israel decided never to never repeat those flase flag attacks.

        Tell me DBG, do you take any suplements or meds to help you achieve such a permanent state of clueness and denial, or does it come naturally?

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        October 9, 2011, 11:24 pm

        What is has to do with Cairo NOW?

        Hmmm, yes whatever could it have to do with Cairo now?

        Panetta to Netanyahu:” Israel May not Survive the Current Arab/Islamic Awakening”

        http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2011/10/panetta-to-netanyahu%E2%80%9D-israel-may-not-survive-the-current-arabislamic-awakening%E2%80%9D/

        Nope, nothing to see here. Move right along.

      • eee
        eee
        October 9, 2011, 11:45 pm

        Chaos and Roha,

        You are sleazebags. Blaming the Christian-Muslim violence in Egypt on Zionists with zero evidence is a blood libel.

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 12:36 am

        Blaming the Christian-Muslim violence in Egypt on Zionists with zero evidence is a blood libel.

        why? we already know abrams advocates peace thru civil war, it’s a worn neocon tactic. it’s foolish not to consider it. there are no clean hands here.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        October 10, 2011, 12:46 am

        “Blaming the Christian-Muslim violence in Egypt on Zionists”

        I haven’t blamed it on anyone.

        ” is a blood libel.”

        That term “blood libel” has become nearly as popular as “anti-Semite”.

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 12:55 am

        That term “blood libel” has become nearly as popular as “anti-Semite”.

        lost meaning due to overuse. don’t forget then screams of blood libel over the chief autopsy guy who specialized in organ extraction until …whoops, that interview surfaced.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 10, 2011, 9:06 am

        Exactly, annie. If anything, the harder eee tries to staple that fig leaf in place, the more people end up gawking. (Yeah, sorry, that wasn’t a pretty metaphor.)

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        October 11, 2011, 1:25 pm

        “You’re going to run interference for Jewish terrorists no matter what they do, DBG.”

        Yep

    • Ellen
      Ellen
      October 10, 2011, 5:42 am

      Dan,

      Difficult to say. There are numerous interests in keeping Egypt weak and maintaining the power of the former status quo. Inside Egypt and outside Egypt. A democratic Egypt is something they fear. The Egyptian Army does not want it. Mubarak loyalists do not want it. Their neighbor Israel does not want it.

      The easiest way to do that, and oldest trick in the book, is to play the masses on religious differences.

      It’s reported that organized plain clothes agitators who were not part of the peaceful protest triggered it.

      “Several hundred Egyptian Christians protesting a recent attack on a church came under assault by people in plain clothes who fired pellets at them and pelted them with stones..”

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-09/cairo-riots-leave-more-than-20-dead-as-copts-clash-with-security-forces.html

    • MLE
      MLE
      October 10, 2011, 6:54 am

      This is the first time I’m gonna have to side with the hasbraists on the board- but Israel isn’t involved in this. I live in Cairo and there is a lot of frustration with the SCAF, coming from many different sectors of Egyptian society- there is also a frustration directed at some of the protestors, blaming them for the weak economy and the drop in tourism. Everyone is blaming everyone else and the military just really sucks at ruling during this volatile period.

      The state owned media hasn’t changed, just as they were mouthpieces for the Mubarak regime, they have become mouthpieces for the SCAF. Claiming there is some entity behind all this is just trying to cover the military’s asses because
      1. The Copt’s have legitimate complaints that the SCAF has not addressed
      2. Muslim-Copt relations have soured and blame can be found on both sides
      3. The SCAF uses the same tactics as the Mubarak regime for handling dissent.

      Israel doesn’t have to be involved in this one- the Egyptians are fighting amongst themselves.

      • Dan Crowther
        Dan Crowther
        October 10, 2011, 9:06 am

        MLE & Ellen –

        I actually have no idea if there is US or Israeli involvement – I was just stirring the pot, as it were.

        My take is that it really doesnt matter if there is another state actor involved – what is going on in Egypt right now plays right into their hands ( The US and Israel – as well as the ruling factions in Egypt)

        Its sort of like with the 9/11 truther thing – was it a inside job? I dont know. I also dont care. Lets focus on what happened afterwards.
        Whether the US “did it” or not – they reacted radically and used it as a pre-text for war and suppression. The question of US or Israeli involvement will be as meaningless here too, if a civil war or mass violence ensues, with the military cracking down.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 9:58 am

        Making false accusations is not stirring the pot. It is an attempt at propagating hate. When any side does it, it is despicable.

      • Dan Crowther
        Dan Crowther
        October 10, 2011, 11:06 am

        eee,

        Go back to my post above, I NEVER once mentioned any specific countries. Your guilty conscience ( nice to know you have one) shows through.

        I hope that you realize that alot folks on this site are Americans. Americans who disagree with US Foreign Policy. I know you think the world revolves around Israel, but the US does enough on its own to engender hatred and suspicion in its own citizens, as well as from people through the rest of the world. I would have thought the US was playing a role in what is going on in Egypt before I would have thought of Israel – only because its so brazen.

      • October 10, 2011, 11:38 am

        “Making false accusations is not stirring the pot. It is an attempt at propagating hate. When any side does it, it is despicable”

        What “false accusations”???

        Advancing the theory that US or Zionist antagonists, agent provocateurs, might be fomenting unrest in Egypt is leveling a “false accusation”???

        Tell us, eee, have we, or the Israelis, been caught red-handed using such covert tactics before? Are you denying that the CIA or the Mossad resort to such tactics?

        The majority of the comments on this thread, distrustful of the zionists, propose the POSSIBILITY of zionist incitement in Egypt. I see very little direct accusation. But, truth be told, I AM willing to level a direct assertion; I can GUARANTEE that there are covert Mossad and CIA assets in Egypt. Are you willing to deny that?

        So, what do you suppose their mission is? Simple intelligence gathering? Or could their mission be of deeper direction, an assignment to attempt to “steer” the outcome of Egypt’s current social and political restructuring???

        Is it your contention that the United States and Israel are too moral or law abiding to attempt to capitalize on, and influence the outcome of, social and political unrest in Egypt through covert operations and agent provocateurs????

        Look, we KNOW you’re full of crap. You’ve demonstrated as much, over and over, ad nauseum. But you should really have the common sense, or at teast the tactical accumen, to offer something more than ridiculous indignation and shallow rebuttal that only serves to expose you as either a hapless fool, or a terrribly inept liar.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 11:54 am

        How do you like this argument:
        Advancing the theory that Muslims in the US are planning terrorist attacks is not hateful. Do you deny Muslims resort to such tactics? I can guarantee you that there are covert Al-Qaida operatives in the US. Do you deny that?

        You guys are so blind you do not even see that what you are doing is what you get mad at when done to Muslims in the US.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 10, 2011, 12:07 pm

        It’s pathetic that all you can do is straw man and cite Wikipedia articles about a country you live in.

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 12:10 pm

        Advancing the theory that Muslims in the US are planning terrorist attacks

        your analogy is screwed up eee. poa said zionists not jews. had you posited salafists were planning attacks it would be a more apt analogy. just saying.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 12:15 pm

        Annie,

        The analogy is excellent. It is a generalization about a large group of people with some common beliefs.

        But you know, we can also play your game.
        How do you like this argument:
        Advancing the theory that anti-Zionists in the US are planning terrorist attacks is not hateful. Do you deny anti-Zionists resort to such tactics? I can guarantee you that there are covert Al-Qaida operatives in the US that are anti-Zionists. Do you deny that?

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 1:52 pm

        Annie,
        Still defending POA?
        How do you like my new argument? A little too close to home?

      • October 10, 2011, 3:07 pm

        “Do you deny anti-Zionists resort to such tactics?”

        Ah, so it is the “anti-zionists” that are intent on attacking us, eh, eee????

        Refreshing seeing you employing such honesty. You and your ilk usually deny that our alliance with Israel is the primary cause of the hatred the radical Islamic factions foster towards us.

        Perhaps you have finally figured out that the “they hate us for our freedoms” meme is a ridiculous premise. Always has been. Its truly amazing that such a herculean joint exercise, (Isr/US), of Islamophobic policies and propaganda could be launched on such an absurd premise.

        Good to see you finally admitting that which you have undoubtedly always realized. But beware, you have most assuredly irritated your masters with such a slip. I find it hard to believe that the word “honesty” is in your job description, or that you will be rewarded for it.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 5:27 pm

        Israel doesn’t have to be involved in this one- the Egyptians are fighting amongst themselves.

        I accept this. But I also would not be surprised were there to be a helping hand along the way. -N49.

  2. richb
    richb
    October 9, 2011, 6:54 pm

    As is typical the U.S. response is off key. Last week SCAF was praised by Secretary Clinton as a source of stability and security. See starting at 1:15 about how we would express “concerns” if the military misbehaves.

    Now she is quoted on Al Arabiya warning SCAF to “not tamper with minorities”. Is this our having concerns?

  3. biorabbi
    biorabbi
    October 9, 2011, 6:55 pm

    Stay indoors. An American-foreigner is always a target during times of unrest. I’m not big into conspiracy theories, but it seems clear the armed leadership is simply more of the same; they will use(even create)civil unrest to impose martial law… continuation of their military rule.

    • Chaos4700
      Chaos4700
      October 9, 2011, 10:27 pm

      Not, you know, that Israel was ever an ally of Mubarak’s old guard, right?

  4. biorabbi
    biorabbi
    October 9, 2011, 6:57 pm

    Nile TV claims 19 soldiers are dead? Sounds suspect. The army has great respect in Egypt(among Copts and Muslims) and the Tahir rebellion was always peaceful against the army.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      October 9, 2011, 7:55 pm

      The army has great respect in Egypt(among Copts and Muslims) and the Tahir rebellion was always peaceful against the army.

      That was before the army began cracking down on subsequent protets against the regime that has assumed power and is repeatedly delyaing elections.

      • richb
        richb
        October 9, 2011, 9:24 pm

        From the BBC:

        “Protesters also called for the resignation of the military council, in particular its chairman, Field Marshal Mohamed Tantawi.”

        The respect for the Army is gone. When the Interior Minister organized a false flag operation on the Two Saints Church on New Year’s Day you could say it was just the Mubarek regime. Now that you have the Army closing down all but state TV and asking for attacks on Christians I’m forced to conclude that the Army is also complicit in trying to foment sectarian violence.

        The AP cannot be trusted. The AP story with unsourced claim that protesters took army weapons and fired back now says source was state-sponsored outlet, Al-Akhbar.

      • annie
        annie
        October 9, 2011, 10:07 pm

        “Protesters also called for the resignation of the military council, in particular its chairman, Field Marshal Mohamed Tantawi.”

        yeah, your Democracy Now’s Sharif Kouddous twitter feed link said the protestors were calling for him to step down.

      • richb
        richb
        October 10, 2011, 11:29 am

        Here’s his report this morning on Democracy Now:

        http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/10/chaos_and_bloodshed_25_die_in

        AMY GOODMAN: In Egypt, at least two dozen people died Sunday in clashes between Coptic Christians and state security forces. The violence broke out after a protest in Cairo against an attack on a church in Aswan province last week. Democracy Now! correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous was in Cairo during the clashes.

        SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Last night saw some of the worst violence and bloodshed in Egypt since the fall of Hosni Mubarak eight months ago. A march of largely Coptic Christian protesters started off in the port district of Shubra marching towards the state TV building headquarters in downtown Cairo. That march initially—filled with men, women and children—came under attack from some rock throwers. That was a brief incident. But the march continued towards the state TV building. They were protesting a recent attack on a church in southern Egypt and the recent attack on a demonstration last week by the army.

        At the state TV building, there was a massive security presence that had gathered there. Many armored personnel carriers were there, many hundreds of military police with batons, with shields, with helmets, lining the streets around what’s called Maspiro, the state TV building. There was already a group of several hundred or a few thousand demonstrators in front of Maspiro awaiting the march. People were lighting candles and chanting peacefully. It was a largely peaceful scene.

        But this scene turned into bloodshed and chaos in a matter of seconds. Some protesters pushed back some military police, pushed them back towards where the APCs were. And then the military attacked. They came rushing forward, beating anyone in their path. Then they started opening fire. The sound of gunfire filled the air, and it was not stopping. Some people fell over as the stampede was coming back behind the Hilton Ramses, a hotel nearby. On the other side, on the main street, I was not there, but eyewitnesses have said that several armored personnel carriers began to drive into the crowd, running over people, six or seven at a time. The sound of women wailing began to fill the air. I saw people being carried out in blankets covered in blood. There were fires lit. Several cars were lit on fire. The police began charging, firing tear gas.

        All this was happening while on the state TV channel, the Egyptian state TV channel was basically inciting violence, telling honest Egyptians to fill the streets and protect the army from the Coptic demonstrators, who they said were attacking the army. Military police also stormed the stations of a channel called 25 and another channel, al-Horreya, and shut it down to shut down any independent reporting.

        There was also groups of thugs that then filled the streets, some people chanting “Islameya, Islameya,” which means “Islamic, Islamic,” and began attacking the demonstrations. It was really a scene of chaos, a scene of bloodshed, the likes of which I have not seen since the revolution here in Cairo. And the reaction of the army does not bode well for the future. So, it remains to be seen what will happen. But October 9th, I think, is a day that will go down in infamy in Egypt.

        AMY GOODMAN: Democracy Now! correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous reporting from Cairo.

    • Chaos4700
      Chaos4700
      October 9, 2011, 10:29 pm

      Huh, you finally said something that wasn’t merely not reprehensible, but is also actually probable. Egyptian media has a lot of state control. Sharif Kouddous is reporting that they’re also claiming that Coptic Christians attacked soldiers first. Which is unlikely and by his witness accounts, counter-factual.

  5. Charon
    Charon
    October 9, 2011, 7:17 pm

    That spy from Mossad being held by Egypt was said to have been stirring up religious hate between Muslims and Copts. This is what they do. They did it in Lebanon and they’re doing it again in Egypt. This IS the work of a third party, anybody who believes otherwise is a fool. I am sorry, we are more alike than not and there are certain people that despise when people come together and ge along despite their different religious views. This could be the work of the Zionists or somebody else. There is no doubt in my mind that a third party ignited this. At least there are now others saying it too

    • DBG
      DBG
      October 9, 2011, 10:33 pm

      Being a resident Hasbarist on MW, I think I have it figured out. Arabs do no wrong, whenever they are accused of something it is never their fault and most likely Israelis, the CIA or Mossad.

      It must be nice to be the champions of a perfect group of people who’ve done no wrong throughout history.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 10:35 pm

        Did you find those nukes you were looking for in Iraq yet?

      • James
        James
        October 9, 2011, 10:56 pm

        dbg – it is a nice contrast to the regular brainwashing that goes on in much of the western media where those evil muslims or arabs are behind everything and the reason israel and usa are so preoccupied with their freakin security needs….

        pendulum swung the other way friend…

      • eee
        eee
        October 9, 2011, 11:49 pm

        James,

        So now the fact you believe the Western media tells lies justifies you telling lies. Nice.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 10, 2011, 9:05 am

        Straw man. The fact is, your country and every media outlet with even tenuous associations with it becomes tainted with anti-Muslim and anti-Arab bigotry. And that is an entirely unique situation.

      • Antidote
        Antidote
        October 9, 2011, 11:12 pm

        “It must be nice to be the champions of a perfect group of people who’ve done no wrong throughout history.”

        Isn’t that what the whole world is expected to believe about Jews, a people consisting of nothing but martyrs and heroes?

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 1:08 am

        There is no doubt in my mind Israelis are active in country. The fact is that Israelis have been active in-country for almost 40 years. Mubarak’s #2 was likely an Israeli spy, for one:

        According to a cable dated August 2008, “[Assistent Israeli Minister] Hacham was full of praise for Suleiman, however, and noted that a ‘hot line’ set up between the Ministry of Defense and Egyptian General Intelligence Service (headed by Suleiman) is now in daily use.

        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4025378,00.html

        What sober person thinks Israel has now stopped intelligence actions re Egypt? What, their man Mubarak gets tossed, and Israel picks up its kit bag and goes home? That they would be stirring the pot re the Copts is entirely plausible. -N49.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 1:15 am

        I would not expect anything less from a “truther”.
        What a wild accusation.
        By the way, if it is so easy to “stir the pot”, why haven’t people been doing that to Israel? Nobody had to stir anything. Islamic elements attacked Coptic churches and Copts demanded protection which the Egyptian Army was not quick in providing because they have cut some deal with the Islamists.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 4:27 am

        What a wild accusation.

        eee,

        What — organisations are put together to execute covert operations, are known to have executed covert operations, have ongoing interests in conducting covert operations, yet it is a “wild accusation” to suggest they conduct a particular covert operation.

        What does Mossad do all day long? Play backgammon?

        Maybe the Israelis had a finger in this, maybe they didn’t. You don’t know and nor do I. But to suggest that it is entirely plausible that they did is hardly a wild accusation. -N49.

        ps — on the truther quip, if you believe wt7 came down as it did due to fire, you’re an idiot. Seriously.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 10:04 am

        I think it was done by Phil Weiss*. He is the person behind these events. Think about it. He was there. He has the interest in doing it because then people like you will blame Zionists. Therefore it is quite plausible Phil Weiss is behind these acts. You don’t know, neither do I.

        What do you think?

        * Just to be clear, I am trying to show N49 how preposterous his argument is

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 12:24 pm

        I think it was done by Phil Weiss*. He is the person behind these events. Think about it. He was there. He has the interest in doing it because then people like you will blame Zionists. Therefore it is quite plausible Phil Weiss is behind these acts. You don’t know, neither do I. * Just to be clear, I am trying to show N49 how preposterous his argument is.

        This is sophistry, bad sophistry. Phil Weiss has neither the motive nor the means. As to motive, the Arab Spring gave great hope to anti-Zionists. To think they would have a hand in undermining it is ridiculous. As to means, yeah, I see the money is just pouring in here on this site, surely enough to support a network of in-country operatives and support people. -N49.

        ps — What is your hypothesis for wtc7? A band of little tiny fairies with really, really sharp teeth all of whom worked in unison to relieve the building of all its structural integrity at precisely the same time? Dish it, eee. Gimme your theory.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 12:37 pm

        Speaking of inflaming tensions, does this site look strange to anyone here?

        http://www.voiceofthecopts.org/

        Slick production values delivering a political view to the right of Pam Geller. The organsiation seems to be paper thin. All Hollywood storefront.

        It reminds me a little of the fraudulent gay flotilla video. When was the site above created? What is the first mention of this group and its only named person, one Ashraf Ramelah? Any way to dig up details of who this person is? Someone want to call him? The curious want to know…. -N49.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 12:44 pm

        N49,

        I can lead you to the well, but I cannot make you drink. If you don’t see that your argument is just like the one about Phil, then so be it.

        Just to continue with the bad arguments to show you how bad yours is:
        1) How do you explain the coincidence that Phil was there at EXACTLY the time the riots happened? What are the chances of that?
        2) Phil has the motive because he wants the US government to sanction the Egyptian military to help the revolution and discredit the Islamists that are targeting Copts.
        3) Phil does not need much money since he has many Egyptians following this blog and he teamed up with them.

        The fact that there are large gaps in evolution for which we do not have fossil evidence does not mean creationists are right. This is basically the argument you are using for wtc7. Don’t you see? I guess not.
        2)

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 1:00 pm

        n49, across the top of their screen it blasts headlines one being “Islamist Winds in Egypt. No Jews allowed at Holy Site”. i looked for the article on the site and could not find it so i googled the headline and guess where it popped up? arutz sheva, the israeli rightwing settler publication. somehow egyptian copts aligning w/their pov seems a tad ridiculous.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 1:52 pm

        Yeah, the guy’s name has been around since 2010. So he might be just a crank. All grist for the mill. -N49.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 2:15 pm

        eee,

        >> 1) How do you explain the coincidence that Phil was there at EXACTLY the time the riots happened? What are the chances of that?

        Yes, the “coincidence fallacy.” Yes, Phil was there, but so were millions and millions of others. In other words, there were 15mm other coincidences yesterday too.

        2) Phil has the motive because he wants the US government to sanction the Egyptian military to help the revolution and discredit the Islamists that are targeting Copts.

        Huh?

        3) Phil does not need much money since he has many Egyptians following this blog and he teamed up with them.

        Again — huh? Show me evidence of a history of Phil working with Egyptian blog-followers to blow up mosques.

        eee, you are making a silly rhetorical argument (as you will agree) that in no way obscures the fact that Israeli intelligence has the means and the motive to stir the pot and demonstrated track record of doing things just like this. -N49.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 2:19 pm

        Annie,

        i looked for the article on the site and could not find it so i googled the headline and guess where it popped up? arutz sheva, the israeli rightwing settler publication.

        I missed that. Interesting. It would have been more interesting has this guy popped up after Tahir. But I still think that scratching this outfit would bring forth some ripe smells. -N49

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 2:33 pm

        N49,

        What demonstrated track record are you talking about? After the Lavon affair there was nothing.

        Israel has absolutely ZERO interest in stirring the pot. The worst outcome for Israel is a unstable Egypt because that is where terrorist organizations flourish.

        Your argument is completely preposterous. You are inventing things out of thin air with zero evidence when the obvious answer is right in front of you.

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 2:45 pm

        What demonstrated track record are you talking about?

        Seymour Hersh: Israeli Agents Operating in Iraq, Iran and Syria

        what? where? nah!

        hundreds of Israeli agents, including members of Mossad, are conducting covert operations in the Kurdish areas of northern Iraq, Iran and Syria.

        but israel would never ever ever do anything like that in …egypt.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 3:02 pm

        Where does Hersh mention ONE false flag operation?
        Of course Israel has operatives in the Arab world. But you are claiming there was a FALSE FLAG operation. So what demonstrated track record are you talking about?

        I am still waiting your answer about POAs argument.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 3:41 pm

        Israel has absolutely ZERO interest in stirring the pot. The worst outcome for Israel is a unstable Egypt because that is where terrorist organizations flourish.

        Israel has a track record of sowing discord amongst it enemies. It wants them to fight each other as opposed to forming a united front against them. For example, it payed a role in starting Hamas, this to undermine the PLO. Lebanon was one long experiment of playing one group off against the other. There is a quote of some IDF guy articulating this approach of divide and conquer — can’t find it. But it is entirely consistent should Israel now be fomenting sectarian discord in Egypt.

        Your argument is completely preposterous.

        Yeah, you keep saying that…. -N49.

      • October 10, 2011, 3:42 pm

        Its comical, really.

        Although eee is willing to admit to covert Israeli activity in Egypt, he is unwilling to admit that covert operatives may in fact instititute operations designed to steer the unrest in one direction or the other.

        It is this kind of absurd intellectual gymnastics that rob the likes of eee of any and all credibility.

        I don’t envy anyone finding themselves in such an unenviable situation as the hasbarists have placed themselves. It is only through these kinds of convoluted and asinine arguments are they able to consistently come to Israel’s defense.

        Being forced to employ idiotic argument, in order to defend the indefensible, or deny the obvious, has got to be pretty demeaning to one’s own sense of self-worth. Unless of course, you believe God sanctions and condones your use of obsfucation, provarication, absurd premises, and revised history. Then, like most zealots, you undoubtedly are proud of your own character defects, being God given, and all.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 4:07 pm

        N49,

        The Egyptian Copts are not Israel’s enemies. You have ZERO evidence that Israel is sowing discord between the Copts and the Muslims in Egypt. Yet you keep repeating this allegation. Israel wants a stable Egypt that controls its borders. That is what Israel wants, and it will not get that from a civil war in Egypt. In Lebanon Israel allied with certain factions, it did not play one against the other. And yes, before it became violent, and for a very short time, Israel thought that Hamas may be a counter to the extremist Fatah and obviously Israel was wrong.

        But you know, the non-chalant way in which you accuse Israel of the most horrible things without a shred of evidence is just disgusting. This is exactly demonization.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 4:18 pm

        eee: Israel has absolutely ZERO interest in stirring the pot. The worst outcome for Israel is a unstable Egypt because that is where terrorist organizations flourish.

        Ok, found some material. You say Israel has “ZERO” interest in stirring the pot. Oded Yinon, Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs senior advisor back in the early 80’s, disagrees. He published the following in KIVUNIM (Directions), A Journal for Judaism and Zionism; Issue No, 14–Winter, 5742, February 1982. Money quote:

        The myth of Egypt as the strong leader of the Arab World was demolished back in 1956 and definitely did not survive 1967, but our policy, as in the return of the Sinai, served to turn the myth into “fact.” In reality, however, Egypt’s power in proportion both to Israel alone and to the rest of the Arab World has gone down about 50 percent since 1967. Egypt is no longer the leading political power in the Arab World and is economically on the verge of a crisis. Without foreign assistance the crisis will come tomorrow.12 In the short run, due to the return of the Sinai, Egypt will gain several advantages at our expense, but only in the short run until 1982, and that will not change the balance of power to its benefit, and will possibly bring about its downfall. Egypt, in its present domestic political picture, is already a corpse, all the more so if we take into account the growing Moslem-Christian rift. Breaking Egypt down territorially into distinct geographical regions is the political aim of Israel in the Nineteen Eighties on its Western front.

        Egypt is divided and torn apart into many foci of authority. If Egypt falls apart, countries like Libya, Sudan or even the more distant states will not continue to exist in their present form and will join the downfall and dissolution of Egypt. The vision of a Christian Coptic State in Upper Egypt alongside a number of weak states with very localized power and without a centralized government as to date, is the key to a historical development which was only set back by the peace agreement but which seems inevitable in the long run. [emph added]

        The Western front, which on the surface appears more problematic, is in fact less complicated than the Eastern front, in which most of the events that make the headlines have been taking place recently. Lebanon’s total dissolution into five provinces serves as a precendent for the entire Arab world including Egypt, Syria, Iraq and the Arabian peninsula and is already following that track. The dissolution of Syria and Iraq later on into ethnically or religiously unqiue areas such as in Lebanon, is Israel’s primary target on the Eastern front in the long run, while the dissolution of the military power of those states serves as the primary short term target. Syria will fall apart, in accordance with its ethnic and religious structure, into several states such as in present day Lebanon, so that there will be a Shi’ite Alawi state along its coast, a Sunni state in the Aleppo area, another Sunni state in Damascus hostile to its northern neighbor, and the Druzes who will set up a state, maybe even in our Golan, and certainly in the Hauran and in northern Jordan. This state of affairs will be the guarantee for peace and security in the area in the long run, and that aim is already within our reach today.

        http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0005345.html

        The entire article should be read. Very revealing.

        At any rate, eee, you’ve just been schooled. -N49.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 4:29 pm

        Interesting Counterpunch follow-up to Yinon’s piece here: http://www.nogw.com/download2/%5E8_us_waging_il_wars.pdf

        -N49.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 4:43 pm

        N49,

        Yes, I have been schooled. You bring ONE article from 29 years ago by a nobody and that proves your point? Really? On the basis of that article from 29 years ago, you are accusing Israel now? Just how desperate you have to be to use such flimsy evidence? Does an adviser in Israel’s foreign office set policy? And obviously, Israel’s aim was not to break up Egypt in the 1980’s so this is all BS. Countless of Israeli governments have affirmed that Israel wants to live in peace with its neighbors, not break them up. And why would Mubarak be friendly with Israel if he really thought Israel wanted to break Egypt up?

        You know, if some BS article by a nobody from 29 years is evidence for anything now, how much such evidence there is of this kind condemning the Palestinians?

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 5:00 pm

        You bring ONE article from 29 years ago by a nobody and that proves your point? Really? On the basis of that article from 29 years ago, you are accusing Israel now?

        My contention in this thread is that it is simply plausible that Israel is stirring the pot. I argued Israel has both the means and the motive. You disagreed that they have the motive. To quote you: “Israel has absolutely ZERO interest in stirring the pot.”

        Well, a former senior Israel official disagrees with you. Here, in the article I posted, a case is laid out for Israel’s motive. You present no arguments to counter the official’s arguments.

        Interestingly, his views on Iraq are also interesting. It was argued that it would be in Israeli’s interests if Iraq were to be broken up also. Now, why did we go to war there, hmm?

        >> Yes, I have been schooled.

        That’d be right, fella. -N49.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 5:13 pm

        Oh well, a “truther” is a “truther”. Your standards for deciding what is plausible and how to judge evidence are clear for everyone to see.

        Here is proof that it is plausible that Palestinians want to annihilate Israel:
        http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3130.ht

        What do you think of my evidence?

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 5:38 pm

        eee, re “ONE article from 29 years ago” you might find this version more illuminating.

        This is not a new idea, nor does it surface for the first time in Zionist strategic thinking. Indeed, fragmenting all Arab states into smaller units has been a recurrent theme. This theme has been documented on a very modest scale in the AAUG publication, Israel’s Sacred Terrorism (1980), by Livia Rokach. Based on the memoirs of Moshe Sharett, former Prime Minister of Israel, Rokach’s study documents, in convincing detail, the Zionist plan as it applies to Lebanon and as it was prepared in the mid-fifties.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 5:50 pm

        So now we are back to 1980 and the mid fifties. Why do I have to spell out the obvious? Israel is a democracy. There are many opinions in Israel and they change over time. There was never an official Israeli position to break up Arab states. Has there been ANY effort to break up Jordan or Syria or Egypt since you remember? If Israel wanted to break up Lebanon, why did it leave Lebanon in 2000?

        You guys take one piece of minor evidence and that supports your position but ignore all the more important evidence that supports the opposite conclusion. For example, Israel signed peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. Israel’s official policy is to respect the sovereignty of these countries and this position has been repeated endless times. In the fifties Egypt and Jordan were an existential threat to Israel. That has completely changed. We know that the main threat to Israel is terrorism and that comes from unstable countries.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 5:53 pm

        >> Here is proof that it is plausible that Palestinians want to annihilate Israel:
        link to memritv.org What do you think of my evidence?

        Huh? You’re equating Memri with Oded Yinon? You are disintegrating quickly, eee.

        >> Your standards for deciding what is plausible and how to judge evidence are clear for everyone to see.

        I would hope so. -N49.

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 5:58 pm

        what are you talking about eee? there’s an abundance of evidence. just look at the history of israel. plus, the peace treaty with egypt was a sham. israel never kept their end of the bargain and any cursory glance makes clear. why do you think egyptians had to endure a dictator for 30 years? so israel would not have to fulfill their obligations under the treaty that’s why.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 7:07 pm

        N49,

        This is the Fatah representative speaking and the Memri translation is accurate. It is very simple to prove it isn’t if you can. What did they translate wrong in this case?

        Who is Oded Yinon? A nobody. Some adviser from 30 years ago voicing just one opinion out of many in Israel, an opinion that never became policy.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 7:11 pm

        Annie,

        Why did the Syrians endure a dictator for all these years without a peace agreement with Israel? Why did the Egyptians have a dictator before the peace treaty with Israel? Please, whatever Israel did, there would be a dictator there.

        The history of Israel is clear, it has not attempted to break up its neighbors. The evidence is just not there.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        October 10, 2011, 7:21 pm

        If Israel wanted to break up Lebanon, why did it leave Lebanon in 2000?

        They got their asses kicked out of Lebanon that’s why. It wasn’t through lack of trying.

        And as Miko Peled expained in his speech the other week, neither Jordan or Egypt were ever an existnetial threat to Israel.

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        October 10, 2011, 5:49 am

        DBG, in true Hasbarist method, you are changing the debate and using ridicule. Why? Because you cannot reasonably address the statement, so instead demean and distract with ridicule.

        Charon said nothing about “Arabs” doing no wrong. But instead “This could be the work of the Zionists or somebody else. There is no doubt in my mind that a third party ignited this. “

        At this time, there is clear evidence third parties were involved. No one knows who. But probably the usual gang of culprits.

        I think it is coordinated among the varied interests who do not want to see Democracy in Egypt. There is too much for them to loose.

        Who do you think it could be?

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 10, 2011, 10:52 am

        Who do you think it could be?

        it is obviously the military.

    • radii
      radii
      October 10, 2011, 12:03 am

      be careful who you blame until the facts are in – yes, self-interested ambitious political leaders have no qualms about stoking religious and ethnic hatred for their own gain (Rwanda, Balkans)

  6. BillR
    BillR
    October 9, 2011, 10:56 pm

    “The blatant and hateful sectarian agitation against Copts on Egyptian regime TV is quite disgusting. They are not even trying to be subtle about it. Wahhabi influence has reached the Military Council.”
    Posted by As’ad AbuKhalil (AKA “The Angry Arab”)

    http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2011/10/sectarian-agitation-against-copts-on.html

    • samsoum
      samsoum
      October 9, 2011, 11:30 pm

      Yes, the Mubarak regime never did anything to tamp down sectarian conflict and even lightly encouraged it, but the SCAF has taken this to a whole new level. They’re under a lot of pressure and probably figured they could use this to get Muslim Egyptians on their side– or at least the Islamists and Salafists. This is why elections need to happen sooner than later.

    • eee
      eee
      October 9, 2011, 11:50 pm

      You see, the Zionists control the Egyptian regime TV also.

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 12:50 am

        maybe the regime is concerned w/loosing $$$$ from the zios. or don’t you think the US congress would do to egypt what they’ve threatened wrt the pa?

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 1:06 am

        And the solution to that is beat on the Cops??? Because then they will get on the good side of the Islamists who are the Zionists best friends. I see.

        And by the way the money comes from the US government, not Zionist organizations.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 10, 2011, 9:02 am

        And the solution to that is beat on the Cops???

        Because that’s TOTALLY not what the settlers are doing on the West Bank, right? And who says the US government isn’t a Zionist organization now, for all intents and purposes? All their policies are geared towards absolute support for Israel above anything else.

  7. radii
    radii
    October 10, 2011, 12:01 am

    Phil,
    Get out of there … my friend got out of Baku right before problems started there … you sense it in the air (and the sound of gunfire)

  8. BillR
    BillR
    October 10, 2011, 12:53 am

    Alison sent me this from Cairo (I cite with her permission): “tonight is worth telling you about. i went down to abdel moneim riad with a bunch of egyptian friends after hearing the maspiro protest spreading and knowing full well the inflammatory things the SCAF said= that the Copts were attacking the military. we went down to find the old tahrir protesters throwing rocks back at the thugs on the other side by the ramses hilton. this went on for a while till it turned to molotovs and people getting carried away badly hurt. we weren’t completely sure what was happening, and suddenly they stopped attacking. but then when we thought it was over and they had been messing with us in a stupid scaf game, suddenly the military attacked. they spread out and chased us down side streets and were arresting people. we made it to a friends house which overlooks the bridge and saw not salafeyyeen but baltagi marching and chanting islameyya islameyya… and the army was among them !!
    friends tried to give blood at the coptic hospital on ramses and they couldn’t get close because the thugs were blocking the door. amry was there but they don’t do anything. reports of others getting beaten up but hopefully you can talk to people who are there now and were at maspiro. so there you go.
    now the thugs are beating up people in front of the coptic hospital and setting a fire outside. lets see how far SCAF goes.”
    Posted by As’ad AbuKhalil at 5:13 PM

    http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2011/10/report-from-cairo.html

    • eee
      eee
      October 10, 2011, 1:07 am

      When are you going to blame the thugs for being part of a Zionist conspiracy?

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 1:11 am

        i’d call it a 70/30 possibility.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 1:17 am

        Wow! Look in your closet, there is a Zionist hiding.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 10, 2011, 9:01 am

        Get the hell out of her closet, eee! That territory belongs to my people, you don’t need to be occupying there too.

  9. DICKERSON3870
    DICKERSON3870
    October 10, 2011, 1:07 am

    RE: “The redheaded clerk at the internet salon who always wears a tie wore a lugubrious expression.” ~ Weiss

    Definition of LUGUBRIOUS
    1: mournful; especially : exaggeratedly or affectedly mournful
    2: dismal

    Thesaurus
    Adj. 1. lugubrious – excessively mournful
    sorrowful – experiencing or marked by or expressing sorrow especially that associated with irreparable loss; “sorrowful widows”; “a sorrowful tale of death and despair”; “sorrowful news”; “even in laughter the heart is sorrowful”- Proverbs 14:13

    P.S. How I Killed My Father (Comment J’ai Tué Mon Père) 2001 UR 94 minutes
    Outwardly, Jean-Luc’s (Charles Berling) life appears enviable: He’s a successful Versailles gerontologist with a beautiful young wife, a loyal assistant and mistress and a brother who acts as his chauffeur. But his controlled existence is disrupted by the sudden reappearance of his father, Maurice (Michel Bouquet), who walked out on his family two decades earlier — and it’s not long before father and son come to venomous blows.
    Director: Anne Fontaine
    Genres: Dramas, Foreign Movies, Foreign Dramas, French Movies
    Language: French (English subtitles)
    Netflix Availability: Streaming
    NETFLIX LISTING – http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/How_I_Killed_My_Father/60024956?trkid=438403

    P.P.S. VERY FUNNY, BUT NOT FROM THE ABOVE FILM:
    J’AI TUÉ MON PÈRE – HOW I KILLED MY FATHER (VIDEO, 06:37) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDuoy0ntR68

  10. BillR
    BillR
    October 10, 2011, 1:09 am

    Last one cuz I gotta go to bed.

    Aljazeera joins the attacks on Qopts
    “It is rather expected from the network of the Arab counter-revolution: Aljazeera’s chief correspondent in Cairo is a mere propagandist for the Military Council. The headline of Aljazeera says: “confrontations by Qopts against Egyptian soldiers”. It is more than insidious: it is rather blatant. When an Egyptian guest suggested that maybe the Egyptian government is responsible: the anchor, Khadijah Bin Qannah, interrupted him. But there are security forces who are killed. And the Qopts are reported by our correspondent to be carrying weapons. What irony in her interruptions. Compare its coverage of Egypt with its coverage and Syria.”

    http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2011/10/aljazeera-joins-attacks-on-qopts.html

  11. BillR
    BillR
    October 10, 2011, 1:19 am

    Ok,
    This really is the last one. It occurs to me that Mondoweiss readers may need a little education on this. So let me be clear. The “Angry Arab” is a radical secular (atheist) political scientist who is originally from Lebanon and is radically anti-Zionist. No doubt people will make of it what they will, but I can’t help that. This site ironically needs a little education on the Arab world and politics. I hope you get it soon, cuz otherwise the Richard Wittys and EEEs of the world are going to kick your proverbial (and naive) ass.

    • Sherri Munnerlyn
      Sherri Munnerlyn
      October 10, 2011, 4:39 am

      When we see personal attacks on someone like this, we know the person being attacked has something to say that needs to be heard and that the attacker desperately wants what that person has to say to be silenced.

      And we also know the person doing the attacking has nothing substantively to say about the issue themselves.

      What I find unexplainable and puzzling is your personal attacks on a website, that you have been citing from, in one post after another.

  12. Ellen
    Ellen
    October 10, 2011, 6:06 am

    “Grapel joined anti-government protests in Tahrir Square at the end of January, days after he arrived in Cairo……In 2005, Grapel immigrated to Israel from the U.S. and joined the Israel Defense Forces as a lone soldier. …”

    Huh????? And this guy was not a spy? Or a potential agitator? Right….like he really cared about the anti government protests.

    http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2011/June/Israeli-Held-in-Egypt-Denies-Mossad-Ties/

    • Ellen
      Ellen
      October 10, 2011, 6:18 am

      Or, considering his background….and that he also worked for the Israeli courts earlier as well as being in the IDF, he must have been very very foolish to put himself into that situation in a time of turmoil in a country that is paranoid about their Israeli neighbor.

      Perhaps just extremely foolish.

      • MLE
        MLE
        October 10, 2011, 7:05 am

        As an expat in Egypt- I think theres a 90% he’s just a dumb kid eager to witness historic events live and in person. I can’t tell you how bad I was itching to go to Tahrir but a friend of mine forbid it- especially because of my Jewish heritage. He probably did not have a wise friend to tell him- “elements of the old regime are still in power and your background fits their narrative perfectly”. After I heard about him, I called my friend and thanked him.

  13. MHughes976
    MHughes976
    October 10, 2011, 6:36 am

    The BBC teletext service is reporting that ‘Some Muslims joined the Copts in protesting against military rule while others responded to government calls to help preserve stability’. The second phrase has a splendidly Orwellian ring but the first indicates that the trouble might not be purely sectarian.
    I’ve no expertise in these matters whatsoever but is it true that the present situation is that the Army officers who have been in power for so long are attempting to form a cosy post-Mub power-share with the Muslim Brotherhood, with no nonsense about holding free elections and respecting the unpredictable result? This attempt would naturally anger both the Christian minority and those Muslims who do not consider that the MB speaks for them.

  14. Richard Witty
    Richard Witty
    October 10, 2011, 8:07 am

    Stay safe Phil.

    I don’t know how you do that and hear clearly at the same time, but you don’t speak the language, you don’t have enough contacts there to get shelter during more difficult struggle.

    • Chaos4700
      Chaos4700
      October 10, 2011, 9:00 am

      Abridged Witty:

      Watch me as I set the foundation for discrediting what you have to say about your experiences when you reference this in the future, like I did about your trip to Gaza.

  15. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    October 10, 2011, 9:55 am

    Phil just sent the BBC folks (have had a fair amount of contact with them over the years) your latest about Cairo at Mondoweiss. Gave them your email. Hope that is ok.
    Let them know you were there and have constantly let them know about Mondoweiss.

    Hope you contact them or they contact you. Would great to hear you sharing your experience on the BBC.

  16. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    October 10, 2011, 9:58 am

    60 minutes did a 20 minute segment on the situation in Egypt right now. The arrest, the beatings, the quick trials by the Egyptian military. Encourage folks to go watch (unable to link)

  17. American
    American
    October 10, 2011, 12:31 pm

    The question is who burned down the Christian church that set off the protest by the Christians? Radical Muslims were blamed for it but did they do it? Maybe they did and maybe they didn’t. Either way it provided a perfect opportunity to use it as a means to stir chaos by those who want Egypt to disunite. Which could be the elite who flourished under the old regime or the zios….the only two who have to the most to gain by keeping Egypt in turmoil or reestablishing a regime like the old regime.

    And why is Egyptian State TV pushing the story that Christians were the ones shooting at soldiers”? Who is really running state TV?

    • DBG
      DBG
      October 10, 2011, 12:39 pm

      fine, using your argument, the question is who burned the mosque in the Galilee, maybe settlers did, maybe they didn’t.

  18. Richard Witty
    Richard Witty
    October 10, 2011, 2:53 pm

    This is NOT good news for the Arab Spring.

    That the revolution is turning into civil war, will add to relevance of defensive Zionism, not diminish it.

    The perception of the Arab world is that it is incapable of orderly transition, that it quickly divides from one framing of willingness to revolt to another framing.

    It would be wonderful if the European world held some humility relative to that, as in European revolutions there is a similar pattern of revolutions turning divisive.

    Except for the collapse of the iron curtain, the most significant event of the late 20th century.

    But, Yugoslavia’s devolution from a federal state to rabid sectarian hatreds was horrendous.

    Egypt?

    Non-violence now!!!!

  19. lysias
    lysias
    October 10, 2011, 3:06 pm

    ahramonline: Egypt Coptic Church blames ‘infiltrators’ for Maspero clashes:

    Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church on Monday blamed “infiltrators” for triggering last night’s clashes in Cairo’s Maspero district in which 25 people, most of them Christians, were killed.

    “The Christian faith denounces violence,” the church said in a statement issued following a meeting between Coptic Pope Shenouda III and 70 church leaders. “Strangers infiltrated the demonstration and committed the crimes for which Copts are being blamed.”

    “Copts have suffered repeated problems while the aggressors have gone unpunished,” the statement added, calling on authorities to “solve the root causes of the problems.”

    Shenouda has called on Coptic Christians to begin a three-day fast on Tuesday “to restore peace to Egypt.”

    • NorthOfFortyNine
      NorthOfFortyNine
      October 10, 2011, 6:03 pm

      Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church on Monday blamed “infiltrators” for triggering last night’s clashes in Cairo’s Maspero district in which 25 people, most of them Christians, were killed.

      Hmm. The paranoid truther in me thinks this sounds familiar. Infiltrating demonstrators and inciting violence which then gets pinned on the demonstrators. I know, I know — it’s my tinfoil talking. Of course it is. Right?

      http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-montebello.html

      Right. -N49.

      • eee
        eee
        October 10, 2011, 7:14 pm

        “it’s my tinfoil talking”

        Of course it is. Enlightened Egyptians are rightly blaming their government, not third parties like you. The Coptic leadership is trying to quiet things down and retain a good relationship with the army and that is why they are blaming third parties instead of the army.

      • richb
        richb
        October 10, 2011, 8:08 pm

        Now state TV is saying oops no soldiers killed and the lie was due to a “nervous” anchor. Some news from the funerals:

        A march of thousands from the Coptic Hospital on Ramses Street has arrived at the largest Coptic cathedral in Cairo in Abbasseya. Protesters chant, “Muslims and Christians are one hand!”

        Thousands of protesters are marching along Ramses Street, carrying the dead bodies of 17 people killed in the Maspero violence from the hospital to the Cathedral in Abbasseya. As they march, they are chanting: “Down with military rule!” and “This is not a sectarian conflict, this is a military massacre.”

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2011, 8:14 pm

        wow..amazing. stay strong in solidarity egypt

      • richb
        richb
        October 10, 2011, 8:20 pm

        Wow, eee the mind reader.
        The Coptic leadership is trying to quiet things down and retain a good relationship with the army and that is why they are blaming third parties instead of the army.

        Egypt’s Pope Shenouda III, the patriarch of the Coptic Church, will lead the prayers in today’s funeral of the those killed last night in Maspero clashes between the army and protesters.

        The cermony will take place in Abbasseya Catherdral where thousands of Copts have gathered since the early morning waiting for the arrival of more than 20 coffins from the Coptic Hospital, one kilometre away.

        Three coffins have so far arrived at the cathedral, with others expected shortly.

        Earlier today Pope Shenouda discussed last night’s clashes at Maspero with a group of bishops of the Holy Synod, the highest Coptic entity in Egypt, in a previously scheduled meeting that was supposed to discuss periodical issues in the Church.

        The Coptic Church is yet to release a statement on the violence.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 9:05 pm

        Enlightened Egyptians are rightly blaming their government, not third parties like you.

        I am not blaming anyone. I am simply saying it is plausible that Israeli fingerprints could be found somewhere here. I give you motive and means. I also point out a history of Israel inteferring in the affairs of other countries.

        By contrast, you say it is outlandish that anyone could ever suggest Israelis would ever do such a thing. And then, well, you say it again. And again.

        Hey, one more thing — what do you think the two Israelis claiming to be photographers were up to 10 years ago today (Oct 10 2001) when they were busted inside the Mexico Congress Building with guns, a hand-grenade and other bomb-making materials? eee, what were these two up to? If I were to suggest “covert activities” would you upbraid me for my outlandish views? -N49.

      • eee
        eee
        October 11, 2011, 12:31 pm

        You have a link verifying the Mexico Congress incident not from a neo-nazo site? Your standards for accepting evidence are quite low when the evidence fits your faulty world view.

  20. lysias
    lysias
    October 10, 2011, 3:10 pm

    ahramonline: Egypt political parties condemn Maspero attacks, but fail to issue joint statement:

    A group of Egyptian political parties and potential presidential candidates held a press conference Monday to issue a joint statement on Sunday clashes between thousands of protesters calling for equal rights for Copts and the army which left at least 24 dead and hundreds injured, but ended the meeting when they could not agree on the statement’s contents.

    The group announced that consultations to reach an agreement are underway and that they would soon talk to media again.

    . . .

    Abou El-Ghar focused on slamming Egyptian state TV for lying and inciting hatred by airing reports urging Muslims to protect the armed forces against so-called Coptic attacks, and for claiming that that Copts were burning Qurans in the streets.

    Ismail suggested Egyptian State TV be temporarily stopped from airing news until it has been purged of members of the old regime and refrains from inciting hatred among the people. She also suggested today’s funeral for the Coptic martyrs should turn into a “popular Egyptian funeral,” and be used as a slap in the face for those who caused yesterday’s crisis.

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