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Why Palestinian rights are not front and center for OWS meta-brand

Israel/Palestine
on 161 Comments

Newclench is the pseudonym of a longtime American-Israeli activist.

Previous articles here have addressed the issue of anti-Semitism and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict within the Occupy Wall Street movement. Some things MW got right, some things not so much. As someone who was present at the first General Assembly to plan #OWS and has participated in the movement part time, allow me to share some thoughts.

Press reports from the earliest phases of the occupation included references to anti-Semitic posters. One well known new media activist pointed out that the immediate adoption of marginal pro-Palestinian rhetoric might inadvertently discourage more mainstream folks, including most Jewish New Yorkers, from taking the nascent movement seriously.

With five weeks of hindsight, let’s all calm down a bit. First, despite the predictable attempt to use anti-Semitism to smear #OWS, it’s not working outside the narrow hardcore Republican/Neocon circles from whence it came. None other than Abe Foxman has come out to rebut the charges of widespread Jew hatred. One could go on about the massive Jewish presence at #OWS, but why bother? 

But we must. At the start of Yom Kippur, between 800-1400 Jews attended a moving Kol Nidre service as an expression of support for the occupation. It was organized independently of any organization, and took place in a number of other cities as well. The liberal and radical wings of the organized Jewish community have mostly come out for #OWS, but in this they are simply behaving like large swaths of electorate that leans left. Nothing Jewish about it. 

The vibrant atmosphere at Zuccotti Park, the other occupations and the online watercoolers of the broader movement are full of issues and debates. Should there be goals? Demands? Principles? Are supporters of Ron Paul welcome or merely tolerated? Are police obsessed anarchists or MoveOn coopters working to kill the movement through too much love? Great questions all, each with many answers. And inside of it, a few familiar debates. Are Native American voices given enough respect? Are people of color marginalized? Is the General Assembly process somehow biased in favor of white young men?

At the root of all these debates are single issue diehards. The refrain is ‘if you won’t do X then you’re a Y.’ And how do we know? Because they said so! Never mind that the movement seems to be doing fine, that the decision making structure of working groups and general assemblies is pretty darn successful, that they’ve built an amazing meta-brand, a resilient vehicle for engaging in politics without becoming any politician’s tool. Somehow, the failure of committed and idealistic people to shift gears and listen to the sensitive brings out the worst in single-issue diehards.

Enter Palestine. There have been educational and political events on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict at Occupy Wall Street and other occupations around the country. I see veteran Palestinian solidarity activists at OWS. It’s all good, really. But there’s a reason why we’re talking about WALL STREET and not, say, the AIPAC-Industrial-Complex. It’s because Wall St. resonates as a metaphor for the economic crisis that is causing so much pain and suffering to Americans from all backgrounds. America’s foreign policy isn’t unconnected (it’s the cause of so much debt, imperial overreach, etc.) but it’s not in the foreground as it was in 2003-2004. And that won’t change. And American involvement in Israel/Palestine represents only one foreign policy issue, of primary interest to two main groups: American Jews and the far left. 

It is hard to talk about the role of American Jews in supporting a pro-Israel foreign policy as a Wall St. issue. If you do it, you’ll be accused of using and misusing an anti-Semitic trope that puts Jewish concerns at the heart of US imperial wars. Elsewhere, I might argue that such an argument is incorrect. But here I’ll argue that it’s stupid even for adherents of such views. If there is one issue that goes together poorly with Wall St. and the over-reach of American finance capital, it’s the role of American Jews. But don’t let me stop you.

Pushing Palestinian rights to the foreground of #OWS would make it easier for millions of sympathizers to dismiss this great American protest and nip it in the bud. Ditto for reparations for slavery, ending the US military presence in the Philippines, and reopening an official 9/11 investigation. Which is why most of the Zuccotti Park protestors would likely see such an effort on a par with policemen dressing in black and urging idiots to break some Starbux windows.

Newclench is the pseudoynm for a longtime activist who spent time in prison as a refusenik during the first Intifada.

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About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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161 Responses

  1. Richard Witty
    Richard Witty
    October 26, 2011, 8:57 am

    Makes sense to me.

    A distraction.

    99% is a much more compelling theme.

    • Dan Crowther
      Dan Crowther
      October 26, 2011, 4:27 pm

      Not surprising that Witty agrees with Newclench – seeing as how Newclench would like there to be no discussion of Palestine.

      On a post a week or so ago, I said that while there are many disparate(non-aligned) jews discussing Palestine at the occupation(s) most of the jewish groups (aside from the well known peace groups – peace be upon them) were not discussing the issue, and in some cases, looking to deflect from the issue.

      Its funny, cuz Newclench replied to my post saying I was wrong about this – offered as an example the yom kippur service, and that was that

      Here is the exchange:

      Dan Crowther October 21, 2011 at 10:28 am

      I think, that unless Jews begin to address the issue of I/P and make an honest effort to reconcile their supposedly liberal views with what the “Jewish State” does – there will be a marginalization within the movement and the left in general. Right now, the main “Jewish” voices within the movement are obsessing over anti-semitism – and doing so in a way that is pure censorship.

      Your right Phil, new spaces are being opened up for discussion, debate etc.
      it will either mean the beginning of a new dialogue – or the end of widespread jewish involvement on the left. If you are willing to pitch a tent and camp out in downtown NY for “economic and social justice” for everyone, but are unwilling to discuss the glaring hole in your own communities commitment to these issues, your probably down there for no good reason, and you and the other people down there will figure that out soon enough.

      Reply

      Newclench October 21, 2011 at 3:22 pm

      “Right now, the main “Jewish” voices within the movement are obsessing over anti-semitism – and doing so in a way that is pure censorship. ”

      Nope. Not true. The main voices OUTSIDE the movement are obsessing in this way. The folks on the inside are refuting this.

      Your assertion that folks, perhaps the JFREJers, are somehow not discussing I/P issues is false. Not like, a teeny weensy false, but big massive not true false.

      Reply

      Dan Crowther October 21, 2011 at 4:54 pm

      Newclench,

      This is demonstrably false. I dont want to get into it, but you can go to any occupy site and see groups/meetings and GA time taken to address “anti-semitism” within the Occupy movement. Here in Boston, there is a endless effort to keep issues like I/P out of the general discussion.

      Phil made that claim about JFREJ, not me.

      I put jewish in quotes for a reason. Are there alot of jews taking up this issue in discussion? yes, of course – but they are doing so as part of the collective, in solidarity with everyone. The official “jewish” groups, like the one Phil mentioned are indeed shying away from directly discussing the issue, Ive witnessed it myself ( in Boston, not NY – I cant speak for what is going in NY)

      Newclench didnt reply. But today, we hear from Newclench that all of this discussion of Palestine, whether by Jews or Gentiles – isnt taking place….Hmmmm

      In short, this Newclench cat is full of shit, not teeny weeny shit, but big massive shit

      Also, the huge display that religious jewish groups have put on at occupy sites comes off as “staking their ground” – as if to stifle dissent by their presence. this has been discussed at the occupation in boston, where there was a very large yom kippur service, and then those people were never seen again……

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        October 26, 2011, 5:31 pm

        Looks like some otherwise progressive Jews are just trying to head off at the pass the OWS targeting of the banking industry, which just happens to be heavily Jewish. Nobody is suppose to notice that except fringe David Duke type groups who have no influence.

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      October 26, 2011, 8:29 pm

      Richard Witty: bullstuff. You did not read, nor respond to, Newclench’s post.

  2. Les
    Les
    October 26, 2011, 10:05 am

    I am sure many Mondoweiss followers including myself, are anxious to get continuing reports from Phil on how the discussion is going, and hopefully expanding, at OWS.

  3. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    October 26, 2011, 10:18 am

    without an antiwar/demilitarization program, where will the money come from that are needed to address america’s inequities and other social problems? and how real an antiwar program that doesn’t take on the settler entity israel’s occupation of palestine? or is ows supposed to end up like j-14, here one day, gone the next?

  4. J. Otto Pohl
    J. Otto Pohl
    October 26, 2011, 11:04 am

    I think this is a fair argument and I tend to agree with it. A movement embracing every single issue is going to be of limited effectiveness. I would say the fact that Palestine even shows up as a possible issue for OWS is a great leap forward. In 1967-1968 or even during any time during the 1980s as documented by Jeffry Blankfort it would be simply unimaginable for for the issue to even get serious consideration.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 26, 2011, 12:15 pm

      Nice to know you are looking forward to a bi-national, multicultural, diverse Palestine, J. Otto.

  5. iamuglow
    iamuglow
    October 26, 2011, 11:10 am

    That’s a good & fair analysis…however

    I disagree that ‘American involvement in Israel/Palestine is only of primary interest to two main groups: American Jews and the far left.’

    I/P deserves to be a mainstream concern as it is at the root of many of the issues that effect the country.

    American involvement in Israel/Palestine was a motivating factor in 9/11 and hence you can’t discuss the ‘war on terror’ without looking at I/P.

    NeoCon designs for the ME that revolved around the I/P issue were the motivating factor for the war in Iraq. That war contributed to the bankrupting of the country and if you don’t pick that apart and hold people accountable, the playbook for Iraq will be brought back out for Iran…something which is already happening. Same goes for the Arab Spring, without addressing I/P, its predictable what US policy will be towards democratic movements in the ME as it all revolves around this one issue.

    It terms of outrage over corruption and lobbying, what example could be clearer and easier to understand than AIPAC? The US supporting a tiny far flung nation with prestige and billions in aid can clearly be tied to money and influence in the political system. I/P can teach Americans how their ‘democracy’ really works.

    Finally, look at how well I/P shows how the media in the US works. A few media conglomerates have helped silence the debate of this issue, which is at the heart of our ‘war on terror’ of our wars in the ME. You have a billionaire like Haim Saban openly saying he wants to buy the LA Times because he thinks it’s a Pro-Palestenian paper. I/P shows you how power uses the media to control how we see world and how we think about issues. This is important.

    IMO, I/P resonates with the OWS crowd, not simply because of sympathy for the Palestenians but because it shows how FUBAR the America establishment is…and IMO, that’s what OWS is about and its what a majority of Americans also sense to be true.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/if-saban-bought-la-times-americans-wouldnt-hear-ahmad-tibis-call-for-equality.html

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      October 26, 2011, 5:37 pm

      iamuglow, I hope you are right, but I think most Americans have no clue as to what you say.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 5:59 pm

        i agree w/iamuglow and made a similar argument earlier today in response to taxi in another thread.

      • American
        American
        October 26, 2011, 10:37 pm

        I agree also..it’s not just the Jews and the far left that are in to I/P and Israel.
        Start looking again at the comments on anything dealing with Israel in NT or WP or anywhere……they are negative comments from a wide range of people, some on the left as a moral position, some just pissed about the money we give Israel, some pissed about Israel jerking the mighty US around, some FP types pissed about Israel getting the US into a war with iran….it’s all kinds of people with all kinds of reasons.

  6. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    October 26, 2011, 11:31 am

    From Anti Jewish claims to a claim that there are a disproportionate amount of Jewish protesters at OWS..who need this?

    Hope OWS takes on the GET MONEY OUT focus

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      October 26, 2011, 2:31 pm

      “From Anti Jewish claims to a claim that there are a disproportionate amount of Jewish protesters at OWS..who need this?”

      Well, no one, but the first is untrue and second is most likely true given the (oh boy, here’s that word again that you love) disproportionate amount of Jews on the left.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 2:45 pm

        second is most likely true given the (oh boy, here’s that word again that you love) disproportionate amount of Jews on the left.

        i think the demographics of nyc just might have something to do with it.

  7. Donald
    Donald
    October 26, 2011, 11:50 am

    I agree with newclench here. I’ve got nothing to add, I just wanted to say that much.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 26, 2011, 12:18 pm

      Yes, I always take advice from Israelis on what to do and think about Israel. As an American, I know Israelis have me best interest at heart.

      Shorter Newclench: The less Palestine is mentioned, the better.

      • Avi_G.
        Avi_G.
        October 26, 2011, 4:28 pm

        Mooser October 26, 2011 at 12:18 pm

        Yes, I always take advice from Israelis on what to do and think about Israel. As an American, I know Israelis have me best interest at heart.

        Shorter Newclench: The less Palestine is mentioned, the better.

        Exactly.

        The anti-Semitic slur didn’t work in suppressing and marginalizing OWS in the national discourse, so now the detractors are looking for an alternative solution — appealing to Americans on a patriotic, personal level Listen we only want what’s best for you, so forget about that Palestine issue. If you keep talking about Palestine, you’re going to lose the support of your fellow Americans and will end up marginalized and alienated.

        That’s the rationale. Anyone who buys it, has been had, hook line and sinker.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        October 26, 2011, 4:54 pm

        Uh, you appear to have missed that the antisemitism allegations came from the hard right, and Newclench is part of OWS, not a detractor.

        See, YOU’RE the detractor, not him. YOU’RE arguing OWS is somehow less than holy unless it takes up the Palestine issue.

        YOU find common cause with the hard right, because you’re both EXTREMISTS. You feed off each other.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 5:39 pm

        Newclench is part of OWS

        allegedly. clench is rather famous for bragging about his bonafides, pardon us for not gobbling them up hook line and sinker.

        you’re both EXTREMISTS

        uh hu. coming from you this means zilch. weren’t you complaining about being tired or something. why are you still here?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        October 26, 2011, 5:41 pm

        “allegedly. clench is rather famous for bragging about his bonafides, pardon us for not gobbling them up hook line and sinker.”

        OK, do you have any reason to believe his view is not predominant?

        “”uh hu. coming from you this means zilch. weren’t you complaining about being tired or something. why are you still here?”

        It’s hard to accept the truth, but the pro-Palestinian community is on the fringes here. OWS is mainstream. The people in it are apparently smart enough to understand that associating OWS with fringe far-leftists is not a good way to promote their movement.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 6:17 pm

        OK, do you have any reason to believe his view is not predominant?

        i already linked to shmuel’s post once here hops. pay attention.

        If I may be a little more general (and personal), I find your comments on this thread typical of most of your contributions to this blog. You constantly attack the positions of those to your left, for being intransigent, dogmatic and “small tent” (with or without justification), while working very hard to establish your own lefty past and reputation. So you used to be active in Hadash, are in favour of whatever 2ss you believe to be on offer, and oppose BDS (but so does Uri Avnery, so it’s ok). Yet neither your theoretical agreement with the radical left, nor your pragmatic convictions ring true. Not because they are impossible, but because they are unconvincing.

        clencher is always at the right place at the right time in history but his positions always segue perfectly w/team shalom and that ilk. it’s unconvincing that’s all. scroll down, here’s avi:

        Commenter clenchner hides behind vague feel-good platitudes in an effort to establish his ‘liberal’ credentials.

        and here is another comment of avi’s worth reading.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 26, 2011, 6:31 pm

        I don’t think clench or you can speak for OWS.

        Your noxious views, if aired out to OWS, would be condemned.

        The intellectual dishonesty, outright lying, etc.

        As a non-Jew or Arab, I didn’t know anything about this issue UNTIL I did. Meaning it wasn’t in the periphery of my experience. It wasn’t on my radar.

        It’s part of Zionist hive-mind to delegitimize all meaningful criticism of Israel and all meaningful support for Palestinian rights. It’s part of your MO to demoralize your opposition. Its very desperate on your part. But you’ve said much worse.

        I think it’s kind of repulsive to associate OWS with Zionism or a Zionist context.

        What you call far-left is simply opposition to colonialism and apartheid.

        All your arguments are essentially:

        Verb, noun, antisemitism. That is it.

        This movement facilitates education and awareness on other movements. That’s what the zeitgeist is all about. It’s an opportunity.

        So setting aside your warped hijacking of the narrative – it is imperative that Palestinian solidarity activists bring this issue into the tent.

        I mean, you really have to wonder how utterly cynical and two-faced hophmi, clench, et. al. are to – after the absence of the Palestinian voice in the recent housing protests in Israel – to also promote similar whitewashing in the States.

        Palestine belongs on the agenda.

    • eljay
      eljay
      October 26, 2011, 1:49 pm

      >> Donald: I agree with newclench here.

      +1.

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 26, 2011, 2:03 pm

        Sorry to do this to you eljay and Donald, but +2 for me.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 26, 2011, 6:33 pm

        Your + means nothing, midget.

        You reflexively agree to any and all remotely Zionist tinged arguments since you possess none uniquely of your own.

  8. Taxi
    Taxi
    October 26, 2011, 11:56 am

    People need to grow up and smell the stinking linkage-drainage!

    Wall street is in cahoots with Aipac and both are causing pain, ruin and even death to Americans here at home as well as putting American troops in harm’s way overseas, due in large part to american zionist foreign policy. Darn it we’re not even talking about the immense loss of life to Palestinians here, let’s just talk America and American victims of the unholy union between aipac and wall street.

    THERE IS A CONNECTION between Wall Street and Aipac (hence Palestine)!

    So what if racist Americans object to it?!

    We’re supposed to tell it like it is buddy.

    Palestine and wall street ARE connected. The fault is in people who reject this and not in the people who point it out and CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE IT.

    So yeah, people need to grow the eff up and face the FULL REALITY! Not just a ‘comfortable’ segment of it.

    What are our brains made off? Cotton stuffed sausage?

    Or are some American jewish ‘progressives’ nervous that American goy are gonna start thinking that American zionist goldman sachs/zionist madoff are ruining both our economy and our standing in the world?

    Cuz helllllllow they sure are and we need to talk ’bout it loud and clear under our great big and vainglorious sky!

    • annie
      annie
      October 26, 2011, 12:32 pm

      Palestine and wall street ARE connected. The fault is in people who reject this and not in the people who point it out and CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE IT.

      our foreign policy in the ME is directly related to us being broke. you can’t look at it (our FP) without seeing israel front and center. you can’t look at israel without seeing their expansion into all of palestine and the same fanatics driving that expansion have no intention of setting israel’s borders. they do not envision eretz israel as limited to the british mandate. if we do not stop this expansion now we are passing this problem onto our children. the expansion is like a cancerous growth on the ME and must be stopped. facilitating that growth is directly related to our foreign policy in the ME and will continue to be. the ‘WOT’ and the constant attempts at control of the ME is why we are broke. palestine is centered right at the heart of the matter and has every reason to be represented at OWS. claiming otherwise is like claiming the priority of israel is irrelevant to israel. or claiming the priority of american foreign policy is not protecting israel and if one wants to make that claim then just listen to the congresspeople or people running for office. because there is nothing i hear them advocate wrt foreign policy (with rare exceptions like ron paul) MORE than their everlasting loyalty to israel. divorcing palestine from the problems on wall street is like divorcing our FP from our problems with the economy. it cannot be done any more than J14 could be effective while ignoring the occupation. follow the money.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 26, 2011, 1:19 pm

        “Or are some American jewish ‘progressives’ nervous that American goy are gonna start thinking that American zionist goldman sachs/zionist madoff are ruining both our economy and our standing in the world?”

        http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/10/23/3089916/adl-ajc-call-for-unity-pledge-on-israel

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 26, 2011, 9:11 pm

        Mooser,
        Would I lose my virginity if I clicked on your link?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 28, 2011, 2:49 pm

        “Would I lose my virginity if I clicked on your link?”

        Nah, I don’t think so. I’m still intact, as far as I know. But I sleep with one eye open, and everything else shut tight!

  9. kapok
    kapok
    October 26, 2011, 12:06 pm

    Who is this “far left” of whom you speak?

    • iamuglow
      iamuglow
      October 26, 2011, 1:08 pm

      It goes beyond far left.

      The only firm “supporters” of Israel are the religious fanatics and the Americans who want a backup citizenship in the Holy Land. Its other supporters only do so because they’ve been told for so long that the Muslims want to kill Americans…that they sympathize and identify with Israel. A little knowledge about I/P and Americans will realize support for Israel is the cause of the terrorism we face and our wars in the ME.

      I’ve had honest discussions about I/P with a lot of people, not all support the Palestenians but very few who aren’t religious feel America should be supporting Israel either.

  10. Mooser
    Mooser
    October 26, 2011, 12:14 pm

    “But we must. At the start of Yom Kippur, between 800-1400 Jews attended a moving Kol Nidre service as an expression of support for the occupation”

    That tears it. How dare you use the Jewish Day of atonement to express support for Israel’s occupation. Oh well, it’s no more than I expect from Israelis.

  11. Mooser
    Mooser
    October 26, 2011, 12:22 pm

    “Newclench is the pseudoynm for a longtime activist who spent time in prison as a refusenik during the first Intifada.”

    And if he hadn’t been “flipped” during that time and gone to work for Israel, he might even tell us his name.
    Once again, I don’t need an Israeli telling me about OWS, I wonder why one is involved with it. No doubt to make sure it goes the way they want.

    • annie
      annie
      October 26, 2011, 12:42 pm

      should read allegedly. this claim could just be designed to give him street cred. this is the same clencher we had before right? (link to shmuel’s takedown)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 26, 2011, 1:05 pm

        I don’t know why we are supposed to roll over and get our bellies stroked whenever Phil can dig up an Israeli draft-dodger who admits that Israel may not be quite perfect, but it could be.

  12. Mooser
    Mooser
    October 26, 2011, 12:24 pm

    Is there any more evasive, chicken-shit, passive-aggresive or disingenuous appelation that “Israeli-American”? Just to see the words connected by a hyphen gives me a distinct pain in the posterior.

    • clenchner
      clenchner
      October 26, 2011, 12:42 pm

      Is this contempt reserved for all hyphenated Americans? Probably not. If Israel is replaced by the one state of Palestine, do I get to call myself a Palestinian-American? That could be pretty funny….

      • American
        American
        October 26, 2011, 11:21 pm

        “Is this contempt reserved for all hyphenated Americans?

        Hyphenated -Americans use to be just in a way to identify where some cultural talent or expression or tradition came from…’a great Irish -American writer, implying a certain connection between his writing and Irish culture or tradition, Italian -American cook’s old world receipes and etc.. Then it got political.

        I personally despise the hyphen- American usage..I refuse to call blacks African American. I will call Jews, Jewish -American or duals, Israeli -Americans in ‘political references’ because of their Jewish tribalism. Jewish- America I think is used so much because putting the “Jewish” in American was a way for Jews to promote themselves in the US.
        For example when some one is mentioned or written about in some newspaper or article they are hardly ever referred to as Jewish- American even if they are Jewish if it’s not germane to the subject of the article.
        BUT when Jews are writing about the same guy and the same subject they always identify him/her as ‘Jewish’- American even when it isn’t germane to the subject.
        The Jewish community is mostly did their own hyphenating I think.

        In Israel are you divided into seperate dual citizens groups of Russian-Israelis Jews, Polish-Israeli Jews or German-Israeli Jews?

      • Antidote
        Antidote
        October 27, 2011, 1:39 am

        “I personally despise the hyphen- American usage..I refuse to call blacks African American. I will call Jews, Jewish -American or duals, Israeli -Americans in ‘political references’ because of their Jewish tribalism. ”

        I’m not trying to smear you with the N-word, but Hitler made a similar argument when he turned anti-semite, and when, as you say “it got political”. This is from 1919. The NSDAP program also included the point that a Jew could not be a German citizen, but would have the same rights as any other foreigner. He uses ‘race’ not ‘tribalism’, but in many of his later remarks it is quite clear that it is tribalism (which he obviously did everything to develop in order to purify and strengthen the German race) he considered as the main problem esp. because it extended, in his view, to ‘World Jewry’. The anti-Hitler/Nazi feedback such as the Jewish Boycott(s) of Nazi Germany, among other factors, only confirmed this view.

        “Antisemitism as a political movement may not and cannot be defined by emotional impulses, but by recognition of the facts. The facts are these: First, Jewry is absolutely a race and not a religious association. Even the Jews never designate themselves as Jewish Germans, Jewish Poles, or Jewish Americans but always as German, Polish, or American Jews. Jews have never yet adopted much more than the language of the foreign nations among whom they live. A German who is forced to make use of the French language in France, Italian in Italy, Chinese in China does not thereby become a Frenchman, Italian, or Chinaman. It’s the same with the Jew who lives among us and is forced to make use of the German language. He does not thereby become a German. Neither does the Mosaic faith, so important for the survival of this race, settle the question of whether someone is a Jew or non-Jew. There is scarcely a race whose members belong exclusively to just one definite religion.

        Through thousands of years of the closest kind of inbreeding, Jews in general have maintained their race and their peculiarities far more distinctly than many of the peoples among whom they have lived. And thus comes the fact that there lives amongst us a non- German, alien race which neither wishes nor is able to sacrifice its racial character or to deny its feeling, thinking, and striving. Nevertheless, it possesses all the political rights we do. ”

        you can read the rest here:

        http://www.h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/hitler2.html

      • American
        American
        October 27, 2011, 10:33 am

        Well, I would be the first to admit I am not the best at explaining my positions to others but I assure you I am not Hitler. You are making the wrong argument to what I said.

        I would prefer there be no Jewish hypenated to American, I would prefer no Americans be hyphenated at all. But I recongize that the Jewish community maintains the Jewish identity as something distinct or seperate from or as a add on to the ” mass’s” nationality as American more so than other groups and ‘politically’ part of that has come to be identification with a foreign country.
        You can say Hispanics identify as a group also because minorities do that as a way to band together to acheive something for themselves domestically. But most groups don’t and don’t have to keep the hyphen identity once they are fully intergrated and attain their rights and place and their effort are mostly domestic issues.
        Jews are more tribal than the usual, nothing wrong with recongizing that, it’s something they themselves acknowlege and work on maintaining.
        You’re trying to liken what I said to being anti semitic on the grounds of race or religion and making them lesser, which it isn’t.
        Where you see my objection to the hyphens as an insult to them, I see hyphenating them as the real insult .
        Where you see my not wanting Americans to hypenate themselves as bigoted I see it as the exact opposite.

        Blacks for example aren’t African, they’re American, they’ve been here a long time, as long as white Europeans have, longer than most immigrants to America. Therefore they should be called American period.

        There is a big difference in a certain group acting or identifying as a distinct group to attain some equal right within a nation– and that certain group ‘splitting their identification’ with that nation based on religion or race or foreign loyalties or whatever.

        But I stick to what I said about thinking Jews hypenate themselves more so than other groups and some particulary when it comes to Israel and that’s why I refer to and go along with the hypen in the political context. ..not in any other context.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 26, 2011, 11:50 pm

        Why would that be funny, newclench? You know, if your parents and/or grandparents had had the civility to do just that, millions of people wouldn’t have suffered or died in misery because of Israel.

    • Bumblebye
      Bumblebye
      October 26, 2011, 12:48 pm

      Surely a hyphen isn’t pointy enough to cause such pain!
      Could it be an ingrowing antler?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 26, 2011, 1:29 pm

        You’re right! “American-Israeli” is much worse.

    • DBG
      DBG
      October 26, 2011, 1:30 pm

      African-American
      Jewish-American
      Arab-American
      Iranian-American
      Native-American
      Mexican-American

      we are all immigrants Mooser, get used to it.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 26, 2011, 1:53 pm

        Yes, and you’ve made the voyage to the land of stupidity. I haven’t got time to knock down those 6 straw men you just set up, besides, they’ve been knocked down plenty before.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 26, 2011, 1:55 pm

        Besides, “David Ben Gurion” didn’t you promise me you weren’t going to respond to me any more, because I was too dumb to bother with? Please keep your promise…. oh, sorry, I forgot who you nym’ed yourself after.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 26, 2011, 11:51 pm

        It’s yet another lie of his. I’m waiting patiently for him to go back on his promise to never address me directly again, it’s inevitable.

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 27, 2011, 9:13 am

        ignoring you is a prefect idea Mooser.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 28, 2011, 2:52 pm

        “ignoring you is a prefect idea Mooser.”

        You should always do what the prefect tell you. Or you’ll get sent to the headmaster for six of the best.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        October 26, 2011, 2:02 pm

        “…Native-American…

        …we are all immigrants…”

        D’oh!

      • edwin
        edwin
        October 26, 2011, 6:27 pm

        One of these words is not like the others. Which one is different? Do you know? Can you tell which word is not like the others?

        Well I guess you could say that to be shackled, thrown on a ship and sold in a slave market in New Orleans would make you an immigrant. Don’t think I’d risk telling the ancestors of such a person this though. Might not go over very well.

        I think I also might be a wee bit careful pointing out to Mexican-Americans that they are immigrants. You’re likely going to find one of them who takes serious offence at the suggestion.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 6:46 pm

        plus, dbg skipped the wasps who make up the single biggest bulk of immigrants.

        it’s like having a dialogue w/a numbskull

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 27, 2011, 9:13 am

        LOL, I agree that was moronic :)

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 27, 2011, 9:59 am

        wasp-Americans annie?

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        October 27, 2011, 10:22 am

        ‘Well I guess you could say that to be shackled, thrown on a ship and sold in a slave market in New Orleans would make you an immigrant. Don’t think I’d risk telling the ancestors of such a person this though. ”

        (I think you mean decendant.) I have no problem with the label “immigrant” in this case. They were immigrants, but not voluntary immigrants.

        “I think I also might be a wee bit careful pointing out to Mexican-Americans that they are immigrants. You’re likely going to find one of them who takes serious offence at the suggestion.”

        That is a good point. (Excluding, of course, the part of their ancestry, if present, which traces to Spain.) In many areas of the American South West, it was the boundaries which moved and not the people. Is there a word for them?

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 27, 2011, 10:26 am

        No one is laughing with you DBG – but everyone is laughing at you.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 28, 2011, 1:05 am

        Don’t tell him, Taxi! You’re ruining my fun. :)

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 28, 2011, 2:04 am

        Sorry Chaos darling. I won’t do it again ;-)

        It’s just so hard not to step on a doormat when entering a house of bollocks.

      • iamuglow
        iamuglow
        October 26, 2011, 2:08 pm

        How many of the above would have dual citizenship from the country they left?

        Immigrant implies they have left once place for another. Thats the case for most hyphenated Americans…the hypehn refers to their culture. Not so with Israel. Typically an Israeli-American means they are tied to two countries, not just culturally, but legally.

      • American
        American
        October 26, 2011, 11:32 pm

        “the hypehn refers to their culture”

        Right. Adding and blending cultures is enriching for a nation, keeps us from being boring, produces a lot of great stuff and knowledge.
        Blending national loyalties?….doesn’t work so well.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        October 27, 2011, 12:10 am

        “Adding and blending cultures is enriching for a nation, keeps us from being boring, produces a lot of great stuff and knowledge.”

        Exactly. Adding and blending, not separating into little “communities”.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        October 26, 2011, 6:35 pm

        I agree, David Ben Gurion, One-State for all. Especially in Israel-Palestine.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        October 26, 2011, 8:48 pm

        I haven’t seen the most recent figures, but according to the older figures that I remember, only 8% of the population if the USA are immigrants. All the rest were born in the USA.

        (Compare that with Australia. At least 20% of the population are immigrants, including me, the PM, and the Leader of the Opposition.)

      • MRW
        MRW
        October 28, 2011, 12:50 am

        RoHa,

        According the US Census, the total foreign born in the USA is 40,500,000, which is around 13% or 14%.

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 26, 2011, 9:44 pm

        “Native American” is immigrant?

        Not intending cruelty here but DBG must be the DUMBEST poster MW has ever had – and we’ve had some frightening dumbsters over the years.

        Okay so now we know what the ‘D’ in his/her name stands for.

      • Antidote
        Antidote
        October 27, 2011, 12:43 am

        Not intending cruelty here but unless you think Native Americans are a different species they must have come from somewhere else before they started to be born in the Americas. Wiki says:

        “According to the New World migration model, a migration of humans from Eurasia to the Americas took place via Beringia, a land bridge which connected the two continents across what is now the Bering Strait. The most recent point at which this migration could have taken place is ca. 12,000 years ago, with the earliest period remaining a matter of some unresolved contention.[18][19] These early Paleo-Indians soon spread throughout the Americas, diversifying into many hundreds of culturally distinct nations and tribes.[19] According to the oral histories of many of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, they have been living there since their genesis, described by a wide range of traditional creation accounts.”

        But who knows. Maybe their creation accounts tell the truth

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        October 27, 2011, 2:09 am

        I recall hearing an American man say “Anyone born in America is a Native American. I’m an Indian.”

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 27, 2011, 10:03 am

        Antidote,

        Yeah I’ve read about the theorized origins of Native Indian Americans and that don’t matter one bit to Native Indian Americans being the FIRST HOMO SAPIENS WHO INHABITED THE AMERICAS.

      • American
        American
        October 27, 2011, 10:50 am

        Yea, it’s called the ‘Asian Bridge’ Antidote. I use to raise horses and did a lot of research on the origins of American horses before the Spanish introduced the Andalusian and Arabian breeds that contributed to what is called the American Mustang.
        The first known American horses are attributed to the evolution of the three toed smaller Asian horses that migrated the Asian bridge. You can still see characteristics of them now and then in some horses despite all the cross breeding.

      • American
        American
        October 27, 2011, 10:56 am

        As as interesting note, the pure Arabian horse is the only one that is as it was…not having evolved into a different speciman…it always had and still does have one extra rib that no other breed has.

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 27, 2011, 12:43 pm

        Fascinating stuff, American: the extra rib thing.

      • Antidote
        Antidote
        October 27, 2011, 3:39 pm

        Nobody denies it , taxi. That’s why FIRST NATIONS is a more accurate term than NATIVE AMERICANS

      • Antidote
        Antidote
        October 27, 2011, 5:19 pm

        As I said, American, I’m keeping an open mind re the genesis and migration patterns of humanity. I don’t know what the latest discoveries are regarding old bones and DNA, but how about this:

        New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago
        ScienceDaily (Nov. 18, 2004)

        “Radiocarbon tests of carbonized plant remains where artifacts were unearthed last May along the Savannah River in Allendale County by University of South Carolina archaeologist Dr. Albert Goodyear indicate that the sediments containing these artifacts are at least 50,000 years old, meaning that humans inhabited North American long before the last ice age.

        The findings are significant because they suggest that humans inhabited North America well before the last ice age more than 20,000 years ago, a potentially explosive revelation in American archaeology. Goodyear, who has garnered international attention for his discoveries of tools that pre-date what is believed to be humans’ arrival in North America, announced the test results, which were done by the University of California at Irvine Laboratory, Wednesday (Nov .17).

        “The dates could actually be older,” Goodyear says. “Fifty-thousand should be a minimum age since there may be little detectable activity left.”

        The dawn of modern homo sapiens occurred in Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago. Evidence of modern man’s migration out of the African continent has been documented in Australia and Central Asia at 50,000 years and in Europe at 40,000 years. The fact that humans could have been in North America at or near the same time is expected to spark debate among archaeologists worldwide, raising new questions on the origin and migration of the human species.”

        I haven’t bred any fleas, but I do know that there have been major revisions regarding the long-held view that pulex irritans (the human flea) originated in the old world, co-evolving with humans. There are thousands of flea species, adapted to their animal hosts, and more or less promiscuous re their blood preferences, and fleas are, of course, much older than humanity. The new theory is that all hard evidence points to the fact that the human flea evolved in South America. Which raises the question: how did it get to the old world? The old Viking theory has been thrown into question when the brittle remains of pulex irritans were identified on Egyptian mummies (all literary references to fleas, such as in the OT and countless other sources are useless because they only provide evidence that human feeding fleas such as rat, cat, dog fleas were abundant without identifying the species). If “Adam had them”, as the saying re parasites of all kinds goes, where did Adam evolve? Maybe he was a native South American? Maybe some of the earliest humans left the continent in a futile attempt to get away from this new and irritating flea? Just kidding.

      • MRW
        MRW
        October 28, 2011, 12:52 am

        The dawn of modern homo sapiens occurred in Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago.

        They just found sophisticated ochre painting kits in caves in South Africa that are over 100,000 years old.

      • Antidote
        Antidote
        October 28, 2011, 1:02 pm

        There you go, the story changes all the time, and the cradle has been moved from Africa to Asia as well:

        http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1227_051227_asia_migration.html

        see also

        https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 28, 2011, 2:55 pm

        “They just found sophisticated ochre painting kits in caves in South Africa that are over 100,000 years old.”

        Wow, that’s humbling! I can’t even apply latex paint with a roller.

  13. Mooser
    Mooser
    October 26, 2011, 1:03 pm

    A National Pledge for Unity on Israel issued jointly on Monday by the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee has created a backlash, with some Jewish organizations refusing to sign it.”

    Well, some “Jewish organisations” may not sign it, but “Newclench” is here to see that OWS sticks to it.

    Israeli-American, forsooth! Faugh!

  14. Mooser
    Mooser
    October 26, 2011, 1:12 pm

    I was wrong. There is something more offensive that “Israeli-American”
    Much more offensive. And that is “American-Israeli”. Gets my bile boiling.
    Of course, I read it backwards as a result of my tendency to try and see everything in the best light. It’s one of my most appealing characteristics.

  15. tombishop
    tombishop
    October 26, 2011, 1:27 pm

    I agree with some of the commenters above that, in a global world, the issue of equal rights for Palestinians must be raised at OWS. After WWII, the corporate powers in the U.S. and Europe exploited the suffering of the Jews of Europe to establish a Western state in the Middle East which would advance Western interests. Israel has been the base for many wars and a pretext for interference in the governments and societies of the region for sixty years to gain access to the resources of the region. If we are confronting Wall Street, we must confront this history.

    The orchestrated campaign to malign OWS as anti-Semitic is part of the campaign to prevent this history being discussed by OWS.

  16. Mooser
    Mooser
    October 26, 2011, 1:34 pm

    “pro-Palestinian rhetoric might inadvertently discourage more mainstream folks, including most Jewish New Yorkers, from taking the nascent movement seriously.

    Because every Jew always first asks himself, “is this good for the Jews, or bad for the Jews”? And whatever is good for the Palestinians is bad for the Jews?

    Go back to Israel. You have a very good understanding of the culture, and will end up feeling out of place here.

    • MRW
      MRW
      October 28, 2011, 12:53 am

      I’m with you, Mooser. They’re like a bunch of out-of-control teenagers demanding attention at every turn.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 28, 2011, 2:56 pm

        “They’re like a bunch of out-of-control teenagers demanding attention at every turn.”

        I wouldn’t know. I was always demure and self-effacing as a child. Spent most of my time helping elderly ladies across streets.

      • MRW
        MRW
        October 29, 2011, 1:22 pm

        Un-hunh.

  17. annie
    annie
    October 26, 2011, 2:02 pm

    i am just getting around to reading the essay and frankly i find this really baffling:

    And American involvement in Israel/Palestine represents only one foreign policy issue, of primary interest to two main groups: American Jews and the far left.

    what separates the left from the far left besides support for palestine? iow, how are you defining ‘far left’? socialists? what are you saying?

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 26, 2011, 2:06 pm

      “what are you saying?”

      Seems to be right in line with this don’t it?
      Now, some are working with the major political parties, but Newclench is working the OWS beat.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 2:46 pm

        what a coincidence!

    • iamuglow
      iamuglow
      October 26, 2011, 2:14 pm

      I know…Its a Trap!

      The hint should have been when whats his name said…”Makes sense to me.”

  18. annie
    annie
    October 26, 2011, 2:23 pm

    It is hard to talk about the role of American Jews in supporting a pro-Israel foreign policy as a Wall St. issue.

    fine, then just talk about the neocon role.

    If you do it, you’ll be accused of using and misusing an anti-Semitic trope that puts Jewish concerns at the heart of US imperial wars.

    like i said, just reference the neocons then. isn’t that what j street just did? was that anti semitic too?

    Elsewhere, I might argue that such an argument is incorrect.

    right, we already know american jews are not made with a cookie cutter.

    Pushing Palestinian rights to the foreground of #OWS would make it easier for millions of sympathizers to dismiss this great American protest and nip it in the bud.

    this is exactly what people said about j14?

    As someone who was present at the first General Assembly to plan #OWS and has participated in the movement part time, allow me to share some thoughts.

    share away, but you don’t speak for the movement anymore than anyone. i liked your little joke about “AIPAC-Industrial-Complex” but i think even the average bird can see the connection between wall street and our foreign policy. and our ‘no space between’ policy wrt israel is every americans problem and costs us billions a year. some might even consider it trillions considering this: (j street)

    There’s a part of our community – represented by the Emergency Committee for Israel – whose supporters led the charge to war in Iraq

    get it? led the charge. LED. that’s our foreign policy. so how you come off conflating people are stupid enough to substitute “american jews” with neocons and segue into warning us this will ‘discourage more mainstream folks’ or whatever. i’m not buying it.

    • DBG
      DBG
      October 26, 2011, 2:32 pm

      is neocon the new catch phrase now? when will we be able to replace neocon with Jew, like you’ve people done w/ the word Zionist.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 2:37 pm

        there’s nothing new about the word neocon, and no it is not limited to jews silly. look it up.

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 26, 2011, 2:45 pm

        I know annie and Zionist isn’t limited to Jews either. but more and more it is being used to replace the word Jew. Something I like to call the new-antisemitism.

      • richb
        richb
        October 26, 2011, 2:55 pm

        See here:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7825039.stm

        Critics of neo-conservativism have sometimes sought to portray it as an exclusively Jewish phenomenon. But while many of the best-known neo-cons are Jewish, this is incorrect.

        In Washington DC, the favourite neo-con think tank was the American Enterprise Institute.

        Here they authored a series of papers arguing for a more forceful US foreign policy, the centre-point of which was a rejection of conventional negotiations on the Palestine/Israel peace process.

        Instead, they harboured the much bolder ambition of a US-instigated region-wide democratic transformation.

        The first phase was the overthrow of Saddam Hussein – which, they believed, would have a sort of “demonstrator effect” on the region.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 3:03 pm

        more and more it is being used to replace the word Jew
        no it’s not. that’s stupid. it’s just a tactic used to get people to stop criticizing neoconservatism exactly like claims that criticizing israel is the ‘new anti semitism’. it seems there’s a hasbara decision somewhere that accusations of anti semitism are the most potent for defense for israel so it’s hauled out for all sorts of things. crazy.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        October 26, 2011, 3:05 pm

        “there’s nothing new about the word neocon, and no it is not limited to jews silly. look it up.”

        Exactly. So explain to me why Phil, and many on this site, have gone to great lengths to describe neoconservatism as primarily a Jewish thing?

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 26, 2011, 3:12 pm

        you need to take off your ideological blinders annie. you are so entrenched in Palestine that you don’t see what is going on in America or the world as a whole. I respect your passion, the Palestinians need more ppl like you. Unfortunately your passion for Palestinians has caused you to turn a blind on on the rights of all other people in this world.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        October 26, 2011, 3:15 pm

        “no it’s not. that’s stupid. it’s just a tactic used to get people to stop criticizing neoconservatism exactly like claims that criticizing israel is the ‘new anti semitism’.”

        That’s exactly right, annie. DBG’s statement is a passive-agressive way to intimate that people who oppose Zionism are antisemites, but he doesn’t have the balls to say that. It’s all transparently self-serving nonsense, of course.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 3:45 pm

        many on this site, have gone to great lengths to describe neoconservatism as primarily a Jewish thing

        if you link me to an example of this allegation and then i will address it, shouldn’t be hard since phil has gone to ‘great lengths’. i wouldn’t describe it as a ‘jewish thing’ i would describe it as an ‘israel thing’. unless you could point me to even ONE neocon who isn’t radically pro israel.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 3:49 pm

        a blind on on the rights of all other people in this world.

        oh please, you are so lame. the least you could do is come up w/some criticism that isn’t straight out of reut’s handbook.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        October 26, 2011, 4:27 pm

        “i wouldn’t describe it as a ‘jewish thing’ i would describe it as an ‘israel thing’. ”

        I think Phil would describe it as a Jewish thing.

        “unless you could point me to even ONE neocon who isn’t radically pro israel.”

        I guess you’d have to define “radically.” I think Wolfowitz is a good example; again, guy called on people to remember Palestinian suffering and to my knowledge, is a two-stater. I don’t think he is alone, because Israel is not central to neoconservative thinking. As I have said before, the neoconservative position on Israel is an outgrowth of their foreign policy thinking. It is not a motivating factor or a rule.

        I doubt Fran Fukuyama is a radical Zionist either.

        If you go down the PNAC list, you’ll see that most of the people on it have not spent a great deal of time talking about Israel, and that most of the people there are two-staters.

        Israel is just not as central to the neocons as Phil Weiss would like you to believe.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 4:31 pm

        Israel is not central to neoconservative thinking.

        lol

        ps, i am wondering why you are making the same allegation sans taking me up on my offer hops

        many on this site, have gone to great lengths to describe neoconservatism as primarily a Jewish thing

        if you link me to an example of this allegation and then i will address it

        great lengths you said. phil and many on this site you said. so link to it. it’s an israel thing and we all know how many christian zionists are obsessed w/israel. so link to it, why not?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        October 26, 2011, 4:45 pm

        “ps, i am wondering why you are making the same allegation sans taking me up on my offer hops”

        As you (or somebody else) said a couple of days ago, I have no time for your homework assignments. I think it’s clear that’s what this blog is about. The blog is about the American Jewish community and Jews and role they played in starting the Iraq War. It is a waste of time for me to say anything more. You read the blog – what the heck do you think it’s about?

      • kapok
        kapok
        October 26, 2011, 6:36 pm

        more and more… Lol, who’s the conspiratorialist now?

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 26, 2011, 10:07 pm

        DBG,
        Actually the wholesale murder and ethnic cleansing of Palestinian semites IS the NEW ANTISEMITISM!!!

        And who pray tell conflated zionism with jews? The school bus driver from Kentucky? Or the scum euro colonialists in the holy land?

        Who the eff spent OUR TRILLIONS of tax money making sure that isreal=jew=zionism? Donald Duck?!!!

        It’s all YOUR frigging fault the sky is falling on your brainless racist heads!

      • American
        American
        October 27, 2011, 11:07 am

        The problem is DGB some of you want anti semitic linked to Jews only even though we all know there are other semites and some Jews aren’t even semites.
        Now you want zionist or Jewish disconnected neocon even though zionist are prominent with neocon.
        What is it you want?
        All references related to Jewish or zionist banned except when it comes to anti semitism?
        You can’t have everything a dozen different ways.
        It’s nonsensical.

      • MRW
        MRW
        October 28, 2011, 12:32 am

        Something I like to call the new-antisemitism.

        If you’re so afraid of the new anti-semitism, or any anti-semitism, maybe that’s something we should use to shut you up. ;-)

      • American
        American
        October 26, 2011, 11:39 pm

        Well DGB…right now there is this subtle campaign going on to replace zionist with neocon…..so the Jews/zionist will left out of the blame if the US attacks Iran. Surely you have noticed that all of sudden every article we read, pro and anti war, is all about the neocons, not a peep about Israel who has demanded we attack Iran every day for years and years.
        Yep, in every article about Iran now the big pink elephant is no where to be seen.

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        October 27, 2011, 4:43 am

        DGB, this is strange…..just a few years ago it was not kosher to publicly say that Zionism is not Judaism, that not all Jews are Zionist. I was HARSHLY rebuked more than once and in different settings for saying just that — not all Jews are Zionist. I was corrected: “To be a Jew is to be a Zionist.”

        And now you say “like you’ve people done w/ the word Zionist.”

        The narrative now changes. Tell me, it is now correct to say that Zionism has nothing, absolutely nothing with Judaism? Will I be beat up again if I were to say that publicly?

      • DBG
        DBG
        October 27, 2011, 9:39 am

        Many Jews are Zionists, but “to be a Jew is to be a Zionist” is absurd. Ellen, I am just telling you what I’ve been seeing on this blog and throughout the anti-Israel/Jewish intranets. You can ignore it if you want, but it is becoming common for anti-semites to replace the word Jew with Zionist.

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        October 27, 2011, 10:18 am

        Why is it that we were were educated to believe that Judaism is Zionism. You know that most Jews were educated to believe they must adopt Zionism to be a modern Jew.

        Can you please cite exact examples of what you have been seeing on this blog that makes you conclude that the word “Zionist” is replacing “Jew” to spew anti Jewish thought?

        There is a lot of nonsense flying around. There always will be. So what? There are lots of strong anti Catholics, irrational and hateful. That is nothing new. Think of the sources. Same for anyone who are anti-Jewish, Anti-Muslim…whatever…

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 27, 2011, 10:24 am

        “it is becoming common for anti-semites to replace the word Jew with Zionist.”

        And it is becoming TOO COMMON for zionist colonialist ethnic cleansers like you to justify your mass murders, to distract from the truth WITH EXACTLY YOUR ARGUMENT ABOVE!

        Say, were you born predictable? Cuz I swear to the almighty I can now accurately predict pretty much your every PROPAGANDIZED RESPONSE.

        You will NEVER silence the conscientious jews or the informed goy with your moronic semantics!

        Besides, YOU ARE NOT THE AUTHORITATIVE DEFINER OF ANTISEMITISM so bugger off with your sack of yellow powder – throwing handfuls of it in people’s eyes at every turn of the way, even when the wind blows against you!

        Ellen is right. Full stopo!!

      • American
        American
        October 27, 2011, 11:13 am

        “but it is becoming common for anti-semites to replace the word Jew with Zionist”

        Oh bull DGB….you know better than that.
        First, actual anti semites don’t have to replace Jew with zionist, they don’t like any Jews period.
        And you know very well that here zionist is used to seperate one Jew’s position from another’s.
        Quit playing dumb.

      • MRW
        MRW
        October 28, 2011, 12:36 am

        You can ignore it if you want, but it is becoming common for anti-semites to replace the word Jew with Zionist.

        What if no one gives a damn anymore, and we’re fed up with your verbal curlicues. If you kill people, you’re a murderer. If you advocate killing people because of some (tribal or other) hatred, you’re an accessory to it. If you have a political/ethnic/religious organization that seeks to institutionalize it, you’re all a bunch of murderers. Does that help clarify things?

    • Avi_G.
      Avi_G.
      October 26, 2011, 3:54 pm

      annie,

      You make some very astute observations. I find it unfortunate that those who claim to stand for human rights are buying into this deceptive argument. As such, I find their motives to be selfish.

      Moreover, the link between Occupy Wall Street (OWS) and Israel related matters is quite clear. That is to say that current economic conditions that were brought about by corruption within the banking and finance sector tie directly with budget cuts and foreign aid, a major chunk of which Israel receives.

      So to separate OWS and Israel’s ongoing military occupation proves that those advocating so have ulterior motives.

      As for the author of this piece of propaganda, newclench, he has always opposed BDS, has always opposed many effective and new ways to end the occupation and give Palestinians a voice.

      As a result, his entire presence on this website is for the purpose of derailing any groundbreaking initiatives. His goal is the status quo.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 4:39 pm

        we’re on the same page avi.

      • clenchner
        clenchner
        October 26, 2011, 5:56 pm

        Actually, I’m on record supporting the original boycott movement, the one against settlement products. You know, from the 90s. Led by Uri Avnery, who is on record doubting some of the full BDS efforts.

        The suggestion that the US economic collapse is linked to financial aid to Israel has got to be a joke. We are in a hole with many, many zeros. All of US aid abroad is less than 1% of the budget, and aid to Israel is a fraction of that. Stick to arguing that aid to Israel is wrong on the merits, at least no one can rebut you with math.

      • Avi_G.
        Avi_G.
        October 27, 2011, 5:15 pm

        Newclench October 26, 2011 at 5:56 pm

        Actually, I’m on record supporting the original boycott movement, the one against settlement products. You know, from the 90s. Led by Uri Avnery, who is on record doubting some of the full BDS efforts.

        That doesn’t make you any more useful. It makes you a pathetic Zionist.

        The suggestion that the US economic collapse is linked to financial aid to Israel has got to be a joke.

        Your debate tactic is amateurish and intellectually lazy. But, perhaps you have reading comprehension problems.

        I wrote that the Iraq war contributed greatly to this economic quagmire. The national debt should clue you in. But, as expected, you glossed over this statement in my comment and decided to make up your own banal statement and then strike it down as a joke. And it is a joke because you are a joke.

        So let me help you with your reading comprehension disability.

        (Emphasis added)

        That is to say that current economic conditions that were brought about by corruption within the banking and finance sector tie directly with budget cuts and foreign aid, a major chunk of which Israel receives.

        .

        You see, clenchboy, your problem is that dishonesty flows through your veins like blood flows through the veins of a normal human’s body.

      • Avi_G.
        Avi_G.
        October 27, 2011, 7:33 pm

        Readers may have noticed clenchy’s dishonesty in responding to my post above.

        Let that be another pebble in the mountain of deceptions, hypocrisy and spin that comprises clenchy.

      • Chaos4700
        Chaos4700
        October 28, 2011, 1:07 am

        Newclench doesn’t sound any different than the old clench(ner), huh.

    • MRW
      MRW
      October 28, 2011, 12:58 am

      As someone who was present at the first General Assembly to plan #OWS

      Is newclench form Vancouver? Because that’s where OWS started.

      Good responses, annie.

  19. Justice Please
    Justice Please
    October 26, 2011, 2:24 pm

    I do not agree with some things he writes, but his main point is right: OWS needs to be focused on the one theme that unites all fair-minded individuals: Stopping the corruption and crimes of the 1% against the 99%.

    Thanks MondoWeiss for posting this, and good luck to all OWS protesters!

    • American
      American
      October 26, 2011, 11:49 pm

      Everone wants OWS to name their demands, name one thing, be specific…well if they listed every single thing the list would reach from NY to Calif.

      The one themeof OWS should be political CORRUPTION…..that is after all the source of the problem OWS is in the street for….that is what allows the inequity that has occured and what they are protesting about.

      Corruption is the source of WS criminality, lack of jobs because of trade and corporate tax policies…also the source of our Israel problem.

      You can’t confine OWS to any one thing EXCEPT that, because that is the core of all of them.
      And you have to get rid of the CORRUPTION first before you can change anything. That’s just common sense.

      • MRW
        MRW
        October 28, 2011, 1:05 am

        What they don’t like is the organic nature of it, and the fact that it is meaning different things to different people depending on their location around the world.

        And what they (those that fear this) don’t like is that it can’t be named yet, and they can’t assess its size or scope. What I think they are failing to grasp is that this thing is just heating up. Forcing OWS to identify itself, state its demands, state what it’s for or against, is a way of containing it.

        I think people around the world are just starting to put their collective foot on the global pedal. What gets NYers rocks off doesn’t play in Rio; ditto every other location where this is happening. Because something else is happening than what appears to be on the surface.

  20. annie
    annie
    October 26, 2011, 2:32 pm

    One could go on about the massive Jewish presence at #OWS, but why bother?

    But we must.

    why? you even say yourself The liberal and radical wings of the organized Jewish community have mostly come out for #OWS, but in this they are simply behaving like large swaths of electorate that leans left. Nothing Jewish about it.

    you’re in NYC, of course there will be a massive jewish presents there, why wouldn’t there be?

    listen clench, you gotta take a look at our defense budget. americans are not stupid. this is the one obvious thing about what’s happened to our country in the last decade. you just can’t fight multiple wars and not take a financial hit. the money has been syphoned off from the people and fed straight to military contractors and defense contracts. that’s the reality and that is why this debt cannot be quick-fixed by ‘bank regulation’ even tho we desperately need stringent regulations. we’ve spent trillions and we will continue to spend trillions until we CHANGE THE FED BUDGET (less for defense) and start diverting it to DOMESTIC problems (back tot he people). that seems to be a no brainer to me. war is expensive.

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      October 26, 2011, 3:28 pm

      “war is expensive”

      Lost wars especially. Or is that the point?

    • Avi_G.
      Avi_G.
      October 26, 2011, 4:17 pm

      I might also add that if it weren’t for Israel, the US could very well be in better economic standing, not to mention possessing more credibility on the world stage.

      When the Neo-Cons pushed for war against Iraq in an effort to remove what Israel perceived as a threat to its hegemony in the region, they dragged the US into a protracted war in the Middle East.

      Afghanistan was one thing, but the destruction of Iraq will reverberate for years to come, especially given the internal divisions that which the invasion created.

      So to pretend as though Israel-related matters have nothing to do with the state of the economy or America’s standing in the world what with the UN vetoes, the political cover etc., is both ludicrous and disingenuous.

      • annie
        annie
        October 27, 2011, 8:44 pm

        i completely agree avi. furthermore, this cia document charon just linked to on “The lobby rescues its old warhorse from glue factory: Israel is a strategic asset” thread predicts our support for israel would bring us exactly these problems in the ME. anyone who doesn’t think our ‘support’ for israel’s ‘security’ played a hand in getting us into multiple wars in the ME is in denial.

    • clenchner
      clenchner
      October 26, 2011, 6:01 pm

      Annie, we should talk about the defense budget. The best folks to do that (in my book) are Ben Cohen and his Business Leaders for Common Sense. Ever seen that video with the Oreo cookies? It makes a lot of sense for activists to hold educational activities to discuss these things, including Palestine. That said, I think it would be a mistake for OWSers to divert attention from the pretty successful media/issue strategy that has been used so far. And a mistake to engage in any public effort that would have the impact of weakening public support for the brave protesters camping out.

      • annie
        annie
        October 27, 2011, 8:51 pm

        i don’t think discussing our relationship with israel in the context of our defense budget ( $1,449 billion ) would weaken support for the protest. i think it is a conversation worth having. the more attention it gets the better.

      • American
        American
        October 28, 2011, 10:09 am

        “I think it would be a mistake for OWSers to divert attention from the pretty successful media/issue strategy that has been used so far. And a mistake to engage in any public effort that would have the impact of weakening public support for the brave protesters camping out.”

        Why would objecting to US subservience to Israel and Israel’s criminal occupation of Palestine weaken OWS?
        No one I can think of except Israel firsters would object……and I think a large part of what OWS is saying is Americans First.

        I think it’s a great idea to include Israel-US and I/P……’Israel First or Americans First’….sounds like a good campaign issue to me.

    • yourstruly
      yourstruly
      October 26, 2011, 7:11 pm

      today in the LA times an article about congress reneging on the debt settlement plan which calls for cuts in defense spending. now that’s something ows needs to take up, cause without defense cuts, guess what’ll get cut. what’s more unless ows takes a strong antiwar stance (including the i/p issue), at the first hint that there’s been another fbi instigated terrorist “threat”, ows gonna collapse as did j-14 when the pm nenanyahu blabbered something about the plo’s application for statehood being an existential threat to israel. had j-14 taken up the i/p issue, it could have countered the pm’s pronouncement such that the movement might not have folded.

    • MRW
      MRW
      October 28, 2011, 1:12 am

      Apropos this: the money has been syphoned off from the people and fed straight to military contractors and defense contracts.

      “Fraudulent Defense Contractors Paid $1 Trillion
      By Bernie Sanders” (OCTOBER 25, 2011)
      http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29510.htm

      That includes this Pentagon report and the tables of the fraud:
      http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/102011%20-%20DOD%20Fraud%20Report.pdf
      http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/102011%20-%20Combined%20DOD%20Fraud%20Tables.pdf

  21. Avi_G.
    Avi_G.
    October 26, 2011, 3:41 pm

    Newclench […] a longtime activist who spent time in prison as a refusenik during the first Intifada.

    Unsubstantiated claims

    • Taxi
      Taxi
      October 27, 2011, 9:57 am

      Avi_G,
      “Unsubstantiated claims”.

      You got no response from Clenchy on this did ya? Hmmmm.

      • Avi_G.
        Avi_G.
        October 27, 2011, 5:27 pm

        Taxi,

        No offense to you, but it took some time for the gullible Americans on this forum to realize that Richard Witty was a hack.

        clenchy employes a more deceptive technique that will take slightly longer for them to figure out.

        And it’s unfortunate that very few honest and experienced Israelis sporadically and seldom post on Mondoweiss, to include Ofer Neiman, Danaa, Shunra and Shmuel.

      • annie
        annie
        October 27, 2011, 8:52 pm

        i miss danaa.

      • clenchner
        clenchner
        October 27, 2011, 10:17 pm

        If anyone thinks Phil has been conned into describing me falsely, please ask him about it. But do continue with the ad hominem attacks.

      • annie
        annie
        October 27, 2011, 11:15 pm

        why wouldn’t phil identify you as you identify yourself to him, and to us? are you implying you know him personally? what does this even mean?

        phil reads these threads and comments (not all of them of course). if he wants to come to your defense i am sure he will. don’t lean on phil to back up your identity. to us, you are what you write . not too convincing frankly.

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 27, 2011, 11:20 pm

        Why do you need Phil Weiss to defend your credentials?

        Can’t you do it yourself?

        Didn’t they teach you this at idf grad school?

        Besides, in my book, it’s about the MESSAGE, not the pomp and circumstance. And your message is, well, suspect.

      • annie
        annie
        October 27, 2011, 11:41 pm

        suspect? taxi you are too kind. you go from SCREAMING DENOUNCEMENTS to understatements. but i love you just the same.

      • Avi_G.
        Avi_G.
        October 28, 2011, 1:25 am

        Newclench October 27, 2011 at 10:17 pm

        If anyone thinks Phil has been conned into describing me falsely, please ask him about it. But do continue with the ad hominem attacks.

        I may regret having bothered to dignify that with a response, wasting my time in the process, but here goes. What exactly constitutes ad hominem in my post? Is it the fact that I pointed out that none of your claims ring true?

        Ofer Neiman, for example, tells it like it is. And I have yet to disagree with anything he has written mainly because whenever I read his posts, I can identify with his experiences in both Israel and the occupied territories. They ring true, and we have never met and I personally do not know the man.

        When I read your posts, despite all your proclamations about your qualifications and experience, I find myself nauseous, not because I disagree, but because you repeatedly take a certain reality, manipulate it to fit your ideology and then complain when very few buy into it.

        Jeff Klein who is American born and who had spent a mere few weeks in the Middle East managed to come back with experiences that echoed mine. And yet, one would think you had a PhD in nuclear physics given your claims. But somehow, all those claims fall flat the minute you start writing. Why do you suppose that is?

        But, since you invented the wheel with your refusenikism, and you peddle your ‘arguments’ in such sweet and polite language then it’s no wonder your shtick sells among the gullible saps. I know, I know, ad hominem, you’re a victim.

        What I would like to know is, who nominated you to speak on behalf of the OWS movement? Moreover, what makes you qualified to write what amounts to a protest strategy? I’ll give you a hint, your alleged experience with the Hadash party doesn’t qualify. Your mentor could be Lenin for all I care, it doesn’t change the fact that what you write is simply either based on conjecture or ideological bias. Finally, the problem is that you think your opinion has the value of a scholarly journal. It doesn’t.

        If you wanted to be taken seriously, all you had to do was state at the outset that your ideology propels you to believe in a certain truth. If you were honest and wrote from that starting point — Instead of attempting to pass off false claims as truth, fearing if you did otherwise your credibility would be shot — you would have earned the respect of many. “At least,” they would say, “He tried to make a convincing argument, despite his ideological bias.”

        You will, of course, deny all this because it takes a rocket scientist to see through your agenda. It’s very complicated, I know.

        Anyway, don’t go running to mommy if your comments come across as disingenuous, deceptive or ideologically tainted.

      • Taxi
        Taxi
        October 28, 2011, 1:54 am

        LOL annie, you’re right. I have a sharp-tooth ‘reputation’ to uphold after all eh.

        Hand on heart I’ll get the clench when he publishes his miserable passive-aggressive bucket of bile next time round.

  22. tombishop
    tombishop
    October 26, 2011, 4:55 pm

    The more I think about the article by Newclench the more it ticks (I want to use stronger language) me off. Do we tell the Democratic and Republican candidates that they must confine themselves to domestic issues? We live in a global economy. What is done in one part of the world affects the rest of the world. This is especially true in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Look at this article on Talk2Action about the role that Christian Zionism has played in the Perry campaign. Were is your criticism of this Newclench?

    “John Hagee Refuses Open MSBNC Invitation To Clarify Remarks” by Bruce Wilson at:

    http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/10/25/152222/84/Front_Page/John_Hagee_Refuses_Open_MSBNC_Invitation_To_Clarify_Remarks

    • clenchner
      clenchner
      October 26, 2011, 6:09 pm

      Rest assured tombishop, I think the Christian Zionists are loons. However, I’m much more qualified to write about OWS (because I spend time there) than I am on Christian Zionism and Republican candidates. If you think US voters should demand better foreign policy positions from their representatives, I’m with you all the way.
      But let’s not worry about Perry. Romney is going to win the R primary, leaving the most powerful CZ networks a bit out in the cold.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 6:29 pm

        Romney is going to win the R primary,

        iow, you think it’s possible to win the gop primary sans the christian fundies?

      • clenchner
        clenchner
        October 26, 2011, 6:40 pm

        In general, no. But in this case, the fundies are split. Folks like Pat Robertson are demanding more moderation! R’s represent a coalition of sorts, and the real die hard fundies aren’t getting what they want this season. Big business gets that this time around. The fundies will come round.
        Watch out for the New Apostolic Reformation and the New Dominionists though. Whew.

      • annie
        annie
        October 26, 2011, 6:49 pm

        how do you know romney will be the nominee? because the neonuts like him? anyway..i think a non christian can win the gop primary but i don’t think a gop candidate can pull it off in the general election sans the christians. and while i think some of them might throw their weight behind romney a mormon to them is worse than a secular person.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 28, 2011, 2:59 pm

        Didn’t “Clenchner” and “Hophmi” give us authoritative predictions on Steve Wiener’s secure political future?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        October 28, 2011, 4:25 pm

        You mean Anthony Wiener? And no, I don’t recall that.

        I think anyone who tries to predict the Republican nomination does so at peril. I thought for sure it was going to be Perry, because I didn’t see Romney being especially competitive in the South. Then Perry imploded at the debates, and apparently, proved just how off-the-rails conservatives are when it comes to immigration policy. But it’s a strange race. Herman Cain, who has never held elected office and had no name recognition and little cash, leads in national polls. That’s all you need to know about how bizarre it is and how difficult predicting it is.

  23. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    October 26, 2011, 8:34 pm

    to my fellow participants in the occupy america movement

    as one among equals

    isn’t our first order of business the putting forth a vision of what sort of world, once it’s up to us*?

    along with a plan as to how we’re gonna get there

    with the movements opening efforts aimed at winning the hearts and minds of the american people

    that we don’t just talk, we do

    for whom?

    hopefully for people who were inspired by the spirit of those eighteen magical days in tahrir square, many of whom may still get a lift just thinking about that almost universally shared (compliments of science and technology) experience.

    and right now throughout** our great land, occupy america

    featuring the same magical spirit as at tahrir square

    wherever one equals one

    with no have-nots nor left-outs

    which holds for peoples and communities as for individuals

    *us, as in you are i, i am you, we are one

    **google occupy (fill in name of one’s community)_________

  24. eGuard
    eGuard
    October 26, 2011, 8:46 pm

    Opening line: Previous articles here have addressed the issue of anti-Semitism and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict within the Occupy Wall Street movement. I can’t believe my eyes: Mondoweiss accepts this as a serious post? Anti-Semitism & I/P, alongside, in one sentence?

    And then, later on but not much later on, it is about “Jewish New Yorkers” and anything Jewish that might come along. Happily, Newclench can conclude that enter Palestine, as with slavery and US presence in Philipines [sic], would “nip it in the bud”.

    Again, I say: even Mondoweiss is a “we Jews only” site.

  25. Richard Witty
    Richard Witty
    October 26, 2011, 10:04 pm

    Anti-Zionism kills the OWS movement, as it unnecessarily distracts and divides from the real issues, the lives of working (and non-working) people.

    It is similar to the way that anti-Zionism threatens the cooperative movement, in adding a divisive and distracting theme to be imposed on all coop members (whether in Brooklyn or wherever the anti-Zionism message is imposed).

    In many ways those that insist that anti-Zionism be an integral part of the OWS movement, probably are either naively or intentionally desiring that it get distracted, divided, fail.

    Is it important that hundreds of millions get liberated from the effects of corrupt capitalism, or not?

    Its an uphill and very confusing issue on its own.

    • Chaos4700
      Chaos4700
      October 26, 2011, 11:54 pm

      Why are Zionism and Wall Street in bed, exactly? Explain that to me.

  26. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    October 26, 2011, 10:12 pm

    does occupy wall street represent what the unity of each and every 99%’er in pursuit of a just an peaceful world can be like?

    the spirit of those eighteen magical days in tahrir square

    leaderless, yet everyone’s a leader

    revisited

    ongoing

    in one’s community right now

    put’em all together and what have we got?

    no wonder the powers that be are going bananas

  27. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    October 26, 2011, 10:41 pm

    why has the idea of utopia fallen into such disrepute that it’s almost unmentionable?

    because it’s a revolutionary idea, however absurd it may appear at any given moment

    except right now because it’s time has come, it’s doable

    who knows this?

    the 1%’ers sure do. why else would they be sicking the cops on the demonstrators. hosni mubarack took the same approach in tahrir square and look how that turned out,

    and the demonstrators?

    wouldn’t be surprised if each one has a dream as to the way things could be, if s/he really had a say

    all together now

    what sort of world?

  28. American
    American
    October 27, 2011, 12:03 am

    I am not exactly sure NewClencher what your main statement here is….is it that I/P should not be included or that Jews are a large part of OWS and therefore I/P should not be included.
    It’s late, my reading comprehension is poor, maybe you could explain it better.
    I have to say that very often when reading an Israeli or (Israeli- American)point of view I get confused because this is always a ‘little of this’ and a ‘little of that’ , it pings back and forth some. I take this to be a form of defense of something, which is fine, but it’s confusing.

  29. Inanna
    Inanna
    October 27, 2011, 3:13 am

    Yet another attempt to keep the injustices done to Palestinians by Israelis closeted. Pushing Palestinians issues to the forefront of OWS would inform and educate people about Palestinians and their suffering, something that you are not eager to have happen.

  30. Mooser
    Mooser
    October 28, 2011, 3:02 pm

    And with Urkel, I say: “Did I do that?”

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 28, 2011, 3:06 pm

      Actually, after my outbursts, I was afraid to look at this thread again. I thought I was gonna get slammed. O me of little faith!

      If there is one think which instantly constricts my arteries, it’s someone who calls themself an “Israeli-American” or “American-Israeli”. I bet he switches it around depending on which country he is in. Oh, tell me you don’t “Newclench”!

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