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From Truth to Redress: Tel Aviv conference to convene on the grounds of Shaykh Muwannis to explore practical aspects of Palestinian return

ActivismIsrael/Palestine
on 66 Comments

The Israeli organization Zochrot sent out the following announcement this morning:

International Conference – From Truth to Redress: Realizing the Return of the Palestinian Refugees. Six days to the conference!
Sunday-Monday, September 29-30, 2013

The conference, organized by Zochrot association, will discuss the practical aspects of the Return of Palestinian refugees grounded in the transitional justice principles of acknowledgement, accountability and a process of redress.

For your information! The conference will be live-broadcast online through the USTREAM website .

A link to the broadcast will be available during the conference – on Zochrot’s Facebook page, on the FB event of the conference and on the website of Zochrot.

We’ll be live tweeting at #ReturnConference

Location: The conference will take place in the area of the village al-Shaykh Muwannis, which was located there till the Nakba.

Address: Eretz Israel Museum, Tel Aviv – Rothschild Auditorium, 2 Haim Levanon street, Tel Aviv.

Public transportation:
Dan bus lines.: 7, 13, 24, 25, 45, 127; Egged bus lines: 126, 171, 270, 271; Afikim bus line: 121; Nateev Express bus line: 604; Train: University Station
Private cars can use the museum parking (day-long parking: 20 NIS)

Please register in advance due to limited number of seats – Registration form.
To Facebook event  For more details, Umar al-Ghubari [email protected]

Please see below the full program for the conference

Here is the program:

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66 Responses

  1. Walid
    Walid
    September 23, 2013, 12:37 pm

    5 million Palestinians would not be returning and neither would 1 million. Other than for the 2 millions already living in squalid refugee camps spread out over 3 or 4 countries that would welcome a move to anywhere just to get out of their current hellish situation, the rest are already living an almost normal life as immigrants in other countries and would probably not be interested in any move and since Israel is breaking its back trying to establish that it’s a Jewish state for the Jewish people, it would never accept large numbers that would upset the current demographic situation. This has to be looked realistically; could refugee camp Palestinians that have their own culture and that don’t speak the local language adapt to living among the Israeli majority? The most reasonable place they could return to is the West Bank in its original configuration of pre-67 with 100% of the water under it. About 15 years ago, there had been talk of allowing a good number of the refugees to return to the West Bank or to Gaza but Israel was objecting to any of them returning there. Israel’s crime of having emptied the land of its original inhabitants is complete and irreversible until of course Israel self-destructs which appears well on its way of happening.

    • yrn
      yrn
      September 23, 2013, 2:44 pm

      “until of course Israel self-destructs which appears well on its way of happening.”
      I would suggest all of you in Mondowiess wait with Walid with Patient……
      and until then, well ……….. take care about the killing in Syria.

      • annie
        annie
        September 23, 2013, 3:18 pm

        take care about the killing in Syria.

        like a broken record:

        Compared to that our bickering with Palestinians is seen as just that.

        hasbrats keep wishing it to be so.

      • Mayhem
        Mayhem
        September 23, 2013, 7:29 pm

        @robbins, pray tell what is the Arabic term for Hasbara. Whereas Israeli Hasbara is an honest attempt to identify the facts and the history (too much for most pro-palestinian activists to bear), the Arabic one is full of bluster and self-righteousness, allied with the hollow rhetoric of holier -than -thou left wing do gooders.

      • Ludwig
        Ludwig
        September 23, 2013, 9:08 pm

        Annie, I would ask that you stop using the term “Hasbrat” which compares Jews to rats. I can provide online definition and links, I know you said before that it means “brat” or some such thing, but it does not. Similar to Nazi propaganda is equates Jews with rats. Please stop using that term.

      • annie
        annie
        September 23, 2013, 10:39 pm

        I can provide online definition and links, I know you said before that it means “brat” or some such thing, but it does not.

        i invented the term, so i know what i mean by it. but sure, provide links to support your claim it doesn’t mean brats. like brat pack.

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 23, 2013, 11:13 pm

        [email protected]:

        i invented the term, so i know what i mean by it.

        In doing so – NOT the greatest addition to the English language really..far from it..

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 23, 2013, 11:22 pm

        [email protected]:

        Hello Ludwig ( what a cool name you have!)

        Annie, I would ask that you stop using the term “Hasbrat” which compares Jews to rats.

        I do not think the word hasbrat is being used to compare Jews with rats.

        It just means hasbara brats.

        It isn’t Annie Robbins finest hour to have invented such a crapulous , childish word to describe people making arguments she doesn’t like but I don’t think it’s a defamatory Nazi- like slur connecting Jews and rats at all.

        Please don’t get so upset about it.

        If you get upset – well, they win , and you don’t want that surely..

        Personally I am more fed up with the use of the offensive word ‘goy’ on this site.

        It is used by the ardent anti Israel/ Zionist types to imply that Jews actually talk that way about non -Jews.

        Jews don’t.

      • annie
        annie
        September 23, 2013, 11:22 pm

        NOT the greatest addition to the English language

        it’s hebrew-english miriam. and it’s a special word inspired by your pack.

        ;)

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 23, 2013, 11:34 pm

        I meant to say anti Israel/anti- Zionist types.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        September 24, 2013, 12:03 am

        miriam6,

        Personally I am more fed up with the use of the offensive word ‘goy’ on this site.

        It is used by the ardent anti Israel/ Zionist types to imply that Jews actually talk that way about non -Jews.

        Jews don’t.

        For which Jews are you presuming to speak on this issue, and on Jewish issues in general? All of them — “the Jews”? Some of them — if so, what percentage?

        Google is a powerful tool for resolving questions about word usage — what groups use what words in what ways and with what intent.

        How does Ovadia Yosef use the term?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 24, 2013, 12:07 am

        “Whereas Israeli Hasbara is an honest attempt to identify the facts and the history…”

        [Chuckle]

      • annie
        annie
        September 24, 2013, 12:09 am

        @robbins, pray tell what is the Arabic term for Hasbara.

        i do not know. i know the 2 languages are very close

        http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Arabic+VS.+Hebrew+4+%28Close+%26+Far%29+&oq=Arabic+VS.+Hebrew+4+%28Close+%26+Far%29+&gs_l=youtube.12..

        so! maybe someone else knows the arabic translation. is hasbara one of the old hebrew words or a new one? and i don’t understand the meaning to be “honest attempt to identify the facts”, but merely, ‘to explain’ (which often doesn’t include ‘facts’ at all, but excuses…and of course lots of propaganda).

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        September 24, 2013, 5:03 am

        Proud to be anti-Israel.

        Anti-Israel and pro-Justice.

        Anti-Israel and anti-colonialist/anti-nationalist.

        Pro-indigenous peoples and anti-European settlers claiming to be Ancient Jews.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        September 24, 2013, 5:15 am

        Jews don’t.

        Zionist Jews do – and you love the vapour of antisemitism because it fuels your hate and war-mongering.

      • talknic
        talknic
        September 24, 2013, 5:31 am

        Mayhem “Israeli Hasbara is an honest attempt to identify the facts and the history”

        It’s full of illogical nonsense, irrelevant to the actual legal status of Israel’s Internationally recognized sovereign extent under International Law.

        Logic, Law, the UN Charter, relevant conventions, agreements and quotes from the Israeli Government disprove whatever it attempts to justify.

        Try some …

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 24, 2013, 6:41 am

        Ludwig, hopefully you will be banned based on this comment.
        your statement that the wonderful term “hasbrat” compares “Jews to rats” is clearly a lie and your statement shows that you know it is a lie. Yet you libel Annie anyway, showing that you have no character. And further, the term does not refer to Jews, anyway, but people who spew zio lies, who, in my experience, are as likely to be Christian in the US as Jewish. so you are wrong. (And finally, if one where going to combine “hasbara” and “rat”, the resulting word would not be “hasbrat” but “hasbarat”. So your attempt at libel is an all around fail.)

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 24, 2013, 6:46 am

        “Hello Ludwig ( what a cool name you have!)”

        LOL. i guess you were you out of the meeting room at the israeli Ministry of Hasbara and Public Enlightenment when your co-worker at the ministry was given his name…

      • ziusudra
        ziusudra
        September 24, 2013, 6:57 am

        Greetings miriam666,
        Talking about pejoritive terminologies.
        As an american, lapsed catholic, son of the Macedonian/Roman Empire ethnicity, i don’t mind being called a Goy or Gentile.
        Jews took Gentiles over from the Romans, who used it against all that were not Greek, Roman or Judean. ‘People of other Genes’
        Goy =is problably Jiddish seeing as no one spoke Hebrew from 200BC to
        1930BC anywhere! ‘One of another Nation’ ( Look to Polish or Russian, but the G letter itself shows something to do with Genes. The plural Suffix Shows it to be a borrowed term & Hebrewised)
        It just tickles me pink to think that world Jewry call me in such ancient Terms making them seem like yokel Greenhorns. It’s simply atavistic & worthless.
        Now if we would say, Heb or Kike that holds derogatory weight, even today.
        The same can be said of Antisemite, or Jewishness, it’s meaningless.
        ziusudra
        PS we seem to forget that terms used eons ago, were used differntly or are new terms made old. For example Hebrew wasn’t known from 1200BC to 323BC. The Greeks called the Judeans ‘One outside of the Hellenic culture:
        Hebrew. The Judeans pisk it up & used it as their language. Their language before 323BC was simply Afro/Asian like Egyptian & Aramaic.
        The Judeans get to be called Hebrews by the Greeks & the Arabs (Desert Dwellers, Hebrew) get to call Arabs by the Judeans.
        PPS As an American, i wouldn’t want to be called a Vespucianian!

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 24, 2013, 7:02 am

        “It is used by the ardent anti Israel/ Zionist types to imply that Jews actually talk that way about non -Jews.”

        Not really, but that is small potatoes compared to the pro-zionist-oppression crowd claiming that criticism of israel is antisemitism. you should worry about and fix that, first, miriam, before worrying about the usage of “goy.” The misuse of “antisemitism” is a much more insidious and dangerous problem.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 24, 2013, 8:05 am

        >> Whereas Israeli Hasbara is an honest attempt to identify manufacture the facts and the history …

        “A land without a people for a people without a land!”

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        September 24, 2013, 8:13 am

        miriam6
        Speak for yourself. Over a thirty year period in Chicago, I heard the noun “goy” used plenty of times–including directly at me, or about me, and also the adjective “goyisch,” as in goyischakopf. As well, the nouns shiksa, and, less often shagget. (My spelling, all, not the proper yiddish spelling.) Where have you, do you live?

      • miriam6
        miriam6
        September 24, 2013, 11:27 am

        Personally I am more fed up with the use of the offensive word ‘goy’ on this site.

        I said I personally as in speaking for MYSELF find the use of the word goy offensive.

        It was perfectly clear I wasn’t speaking for any ones else but myself.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 24, 2013, 12:54 pm

        @ziusudra:

        The word Goy (singular) or Goyim (Plural), is not originated from Yiddish. It is a very ancient Hebrew word mentioned many times in the Bible. The meaning of Goy is simply “nation” or “people” and each nation, including the ancient Hebrews, is called Goy in the Bible:

        Here is a verse from Micha chapter 4 refers to all nations. In Hebrew Bible the word “nation” in this verse is Goy:

        “and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more”.

        Another verse from the Book of Genesis 35 in the Bible describes the people of Israel as Goy:

        “And God said unto him: ‘I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; and the land which I gave unto Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.”

        In modern Hebrew, we used the word “Am” to describe people: “The Jewish people – Ha-Am Ha-Yehudi”, “The Egyptian people – Ha-Am Ha-Mitzri”. The Arabic word is Sha’b (شعب), so “The Egyptian people – Al-Sha’b Al-Masri” (الشعب المصري). I don’t think the “G” in the word “Goy” has relation to the word Gene, which is modern word.

      • Walid
        Walid
        September 24, 2013, 2:15 pm

        “so! maybe someone else knows the arabic translation”

        That’s a tough one, Annie, the closest thing I could come up with is “tirkeebeh” which comes from “rak’kaba” sort of “to construct” or “formulate” like a potion. But the proper noun should be “mourak’kab” which is mockingly twisted into the derogative word “tirkeebbeh” to signify that it’s a made up lie. Or something like that, but that’s close enough to describe your hasbara. As to your hasbrats, in Arabic you would simply refer to people that set up tirkeebehs as “liars”.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 24, 2013, 3:04 pm

        @Walid: The Hebrew term Hasbara comes from Lehasbir means “to explain”. From Morfix:

        “The term “Hasbara” is a tool aimed at acquiring fans as providing information and arguments. Meaning of the term based on the term propaganda. Propaganda indicates any action designed to stimulate and strengthen sympathy state, movement, or an idea out”.

        In Hebrew, the term Hasbara alone has no negative meaning. We can say “The association launches an Hasbara campaign to raise donations to treat Polyomyelitis infected people”. The term Hasbara has no relation with lies as you wrote. If you want to say that the Hasbara contains lies you can say “False Hasbara” for instance. Hence, the correct translation of Hasbara to Arabic is Di-aya (دعاية).

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        September 25, 2013, 2:26 am

        The Hebrew term Hasbara comes from Lehasbir means “to explain”.

        The English term “propaganda” comes from the Latin propagare, to spread, propagate.

        In Hebrew, the term Hasbara alone has no negative meaning.

        Also from Morfix:

        euphemism noun לָשׁוֹן נְקִיָּה, יוּפֶמִיזְם
        euphemism
        euphemism: יחיד; euphemisms: רבים;
        דוגמאות שימוש:
        • using “eliminate” as a euphemism for “kill”

      • annie
        annie
        September 25, 2013, 2:49 am

        “mourak’kab” which is mockingly twisted into the derogative word “tirkeebbeh” to signify that it’s a made up lie. Or something like that

        thank you walid, instructional!

        shmuel, that is very interesting….

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 3:03 am

        @Annie: I understand it is hard to say “Walid, Shmuel and Mahane” together.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 3:06 am

        @Shmuel: So, do I have to accept the fact that I can’t write in MW neutral comments like the above two comments to Ziusudra and Walid? It is all a part of my Hasbara campaign?

      • annie
        annie
        September 25, 2013, 3:32 am

        mehane, your comment was specifically addressed to walid. i already knew hasbara means ‘to explain’ (see my comment @12:09 am).

        The term Hasbara has no relation with lies as you wrote.

        this is simply untrue. the meaning of the term ‘hasbara’ is not the same as ‘relations’ to the term. if hasbara is used for decades to spread lies (it is) then the term will certainly be related to lies.

        the same as a woman/person. the term woman does not mean liar. but if a woman lies over and over, then everyone will know that about her, and no one would dare say she has ” has no relation with lies”.

        the government of israel is famous for lying. so technically, there is no way one could ‘explain’ its actions truthfully, without exposing those lies.

        anyway, thank you very much for mentioning ” Hasbara comes from Lehasbir” for if you had not i am not sure shmuel would have mentioned using “eliminate” as a euphemism for “kill”.

        hmmm

      • annie
        annie
        September 25, 2013, 3:41 am

        So, do I have to accept the fact that I can’t write in MW neutral comments like the above two comments to Ziusudra and Walid? It is all a part of my Hasbara campaign?

        i’ll answer right after you answer this question. is it a fact you can’t (incapable of/not allowed) write neutral comments here, or are you merely using the term “accept the fact” as a rhetorical flourish?

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 4:02 am

        @Annie: to your first reply to me: I try to explain the meaning of the term Hasbara in Hebrew. I know that you changed the original meaning of this term and use it to describe the “Israeli government lies…”. It is a point of view: Our truth is lies for you. That is the reason I am here.

        To second reply: Technically, I can write, of course. What I mean is that, since I am a Zionist and pro-Israeli, no matter what I write, people always refer to my comment in negative way. The two comments to Ziusudra and Walid were innocent comments in which I try to explain Hebrew terms without inserting my point of view. I afraid the replies are not the same.

      • Walid
        Walid
        September 25, 2013, 5:19 am

        “It is all a part of my Hasbara campaign?”

        Yes, it’s exactly as Just seized you up; in short, when you went overnight from a “regular” potato seller that couldn’t properly put together a few words in Eglish to being adept with commas, you showed your true colour, which was of deception and and hasbarat in my Arabic sense of the word.

        Here are your first posts from 3 weeks ago:

        “MahaneYehude1 September 9, 2013 at 1:23 pm
        @Annie: Thanks. Didn’t know about emails.
        I am not Nakba denial and don’t want others deny it. Any way, I send my reply to Shmuel and I don’t think it contains any denies.”

        “MahaneYehude1 August 31, 2013 at 1:43 am with 2 replies
        @Inanna:… There is nothing against Islam in my comment. I only wanted to clarify things and also cited the Holy Korean. Instead of call me Islamophobe, please, check again if the information in my comment is correct. For sure I can tell you one fact: There are thousands of Arab man and Jewish woman couples in Israel (which I have no problem with that). I never saw or know or heard there are couple consists of Arab woman and Jewish man (In Israel). I don’t know the reason for that and will be glad to hear from you any explanation.”

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 5:50 am

        @Walid: Again, as usual, my English. What’s wrong with my English? I said many times that my English is not so good, so what? can’t I write here? Could you explain what’s wrong with the two comments, except the fact I wrote “denial” in mistake or maybe more mistakes?

        BTW, what part of you do is exactly propaganda techniques: you don’t bother to deal with the truth because you have the privilege to say “you liar, you Hasbara” and finish with the case. We can’t say the same.

        What is all the problem with “potato seller”? why it is a deception? Do you know me personally or the circumstances that led me to the market? Been a seller doesn’t mean I can’t see the real truth. A seller sitting in the market for several decades is no less than a sociologist sitting in the university.

        I apology in advance for any mistake in the current comment. Waiting to your honest answers because I am tired from all these attempts to decrease my credibility and present a false image of me.

      • kamanja
        kamanja
        September 25, 2013, 8:55 am

        That’s a lot of misconceptions in one post. Goy is Hebrew. Yiddish contains a up to 30% Hebrew vocabulary. Contrary to your claim all religious Jews had knowledge of Hebrew even if they did not speak it as lingua franca. All the prayers are in Hebrew, the Torah is in Hebrew. Hebrew was known in Yiddish dialect as Lushen Hakoidesh, which translated word by word means tongue the holy, i.e. the holy language as opposed to Yiddish which was known as Mamme Lushen (mom’s language). The word Goy means nation. If Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef calls non-Jews goyim it’s not because he was a Yiddish speaker. His official name was Abdullah Yusef (Abd Allah is Ovadia in Hebrew) and he was born in Iraq, only one of many, many countries in which Jews were unlikely to speak or know Yiddish. They spoke and wrote Judeo-Arabic, which is, like Yiddish, written in Hebrew characters.

        What a shame you got side-tracked into discussing whether hasbrats is anti-semitic or not. Art Spiegelman portrayed Jews as mice in Maus and I suggest anyone who is offended by the word hasbrats see the movie Ratatouille.

        To return to the main subject, this ground-breaking conference caused a lot of ruckus when it was announced for the first time several weeks ago. Im Tirzu and a Knesset member tried to get the Land of Israel Museum to change its mind about hosting it, following which, the museum made demands for additional security from Zochrot, that it knew the organization could not provide. At some point its future at that venue looked dicey, but a solution seems to have been found.

        A Times of Israel hasbarblog gives you its side of the story: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/conference-cancelled-but-questions-remain/

      • Walid
        Walid
        September 23, 2013, 4:15 pm

        yrn, to be clearer on what I meant, I was referring to the wicked Zionist mentality and not to the country itself or its people. And yes, it will self-destruct.

    • Ludwig
      Ludwig
      September 23, 2013, 3:05 pm

      Well said Walid.

    • Inanna
      Inanna
      September 24, 2013, 9:18 pm

      Disagree Walid. I’ve worked with many Palestinian groups in the diaspora and many are eager to return to their homes and lands. It’s not just return to a state as such that has meaning but to their balad and their community. I think you underestimate the fervour with which many Palestinians desire to return to their roots. Many want to take their skills home to rebuild. I agree that not all will return but many will. For example many returned after Oslo and many more will return under a real solution. As a friend of mine frequently says ‘I am from Yafa and I’m going to return to Yafa’. And it’s usually to thunderous applause.

      • Walid
        Walid
        September 25, 2013, 5:40 am

        Inanna, I sincerely wish that all Palestinians could and would return to their natural home but the sad reality is that 6 million Palestinians will not all be returning. Even sadder is the fact that those most apt to adapt to the Israeli society are those very ones in the diaspora and aside from the nostalgia factor, many of these diaspora Palestinians dont need to return as they have been welcomed in other countries. Those that really need to return are the stateless ones that are living in the camps but these are the ones that would have big problems in adapting to the Israeli society as would the Israeli society have problems adapting to them. That the Zionist enterprise robbed the Palestinians is beyond any discussion and also beyond any discussion are the compensations due to the Palestinians whether they do or don’t return. What’s not helping any of them is that their leaders are colluding with the thieves that robbed them. As to the fervor you mentioned, you also have the Jews that all pray to “next year in Jerusalem” but not many do eventhough they have the opportunity and the available funding to do so. Half the Jews are not living in Israel and are not interested in ever moving there. I see a likewise situation with the Palestinians in the diaspora.

      • yrn
        yrn
        September 25, 2013, 7:18 am

        Walid

        Is the only realistic person in this blog, as he lives the situation while all others are u.s. residence that don’t have a clue about the issue and just use it for their personal selfish Agenda, with no connection what so ever to reality.

  2. Mike_Konrad
    Mike_Konrad
    September 23, 2013, 2:15 pm

    Given that the adjoining Arab states have refused to naturalize the Palestinians, yes, there would millions returning

    Were I an Israeli Jew, I would be terrified.

    A solution will have to be found other than the right-of-return.

    This may or may not be a denial of justice, but it is reality.

    • a blah chick
      a blah chick
      September 23, 2013, 3:32 pm

      “Were I an Israeli Jew, I would be terrified.”

      But, but Israel is a democracy where everyone is treated the same! Everyone votes and goes to the beach and the movies and did I mention that everyone votes?

      No sir, you are wrong! The Jews have nothing to fear! The Jews will get the same kind, considerate and FAIR treatment that every Arab gets in Israel right now!

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        September 24, 2013, 3:06 am

        @ a blah chick

        The Jews will get the same kind, considerate and FAIR treatment that every Arab gets in Israel right now!

        Yep. Exactly what they’re scared of.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        September 24, 2013, 8:18 am

        @ A blah chick
        Yep. Our politicians tell us all the time that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. And pro-Israel commenters on line constantly affirm that minorities in Israel vote, are represented in the Knesset, are soldiers in the IDF, and generally are much better off than Arabs outside of Israel in the Middle East.

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 24, 2013, 8:59 am

      >> Given that the adjoining Arab states have refused to naturalize the Palestinians, yes, there would millions returning

      1. Adjoining states were not required to naturalize the refugees.
      2. Not necessarily. Many would likely accept compensation in lieu or chooose to settle in a new Palestinian state.

      >> Were I an Israeli Jew, I would be terrified.

      Yeah, it sucks when your supremacist state’s past and on-going (war) crimes come back to haunt you.

      >> A solution will have to be found other than the right-of-return.
      >> This may or may not be a denial of justice, but it is reality.

      A solution will have to be found other than supremacist “Jewish State”. This is not a denial of justice, but it is both a denial of supremacism and a reality.

      • Walid
        Walid
        September 25, 2013, 6:29 am

        “Not necessarily. Many would likely accept compensation in lieu or chooose to settle in a new Palestinian state.”

        Eljay, about compensation, sadly this is a misunderstood concept. The actual compensations would be paid to the states that would accept to naturalize them as they would have to build the necessary infrastructures to accomodate them. A Palestinian refugee in a Lebanese camp that is expecting to get 50,000 or 100,000 dollars as his compensation, could not do much with his money (if he ever got it) since he would not be allowed to buy a house or establish a business in Lebanon because local laws don’t allow him to. If the country accepts to naturalize him, it would be receiving his share of the compensation to pay for part of the infrasctructure needed for him which means that the Palestinian would not be seeing any part of the cash. As those in the diaspora, apart from those that are living and working in the Gulf that are still designated as refugees, those in Europe and in the Americas are probably already naturalized and not easily accepted as eligible for any compensation.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 25, 2013, 8:16 am

        >> Walid @ September 25, 2013 at 6:29 am

        Thanks for the clarification, Walid.

        IMO, the refugee must receive the full amount of compensation. Any amounts required by the “naturalizing” state must be separate from / in addition to that compensation.

    • Walid
      Walid
      September 25, 2013, 6:01 am

      “Given that the adjoining Arab states have refused to naturalize the Palestinians”

      Mike K.,In the last 20 years or so, Lebanon has naturalized about 100,000 Palestinians, which was great for those Palestinians but regrettably it was not done for a humane reason. Jordan had also naturalized hundreds of thousands Palestinians on the West Bank when it illegally annexed it but denaturalized them when it signed a peace with Israel and there are still 200,000 Palestinian-Jordanians in the diaspora currently in the process of being also denaturalized supposedly for “their good” to avoid losing their right of return. I just wanted to correct your statement that adjoining states have refused to naturalize Palestinians.

    • talknic
      talknic
      September 25, 2013, 11:34 am

      Mike_Konrad “Given that the adjoining Arab states have refused to naturalize the Palestinians, yes, there would millions returning”

      A) Palestinian refugees don’t want to forgo their rights by accepting citizenship in a country other than the country of return. The majority of Arab states have policies similar to the majority of countries in the world. Refugees need to APPLY for citizenship. Meanwhile they have been generously hosted for 65 years and have only refugee rights.

      http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6b4ea13.html

      http://www.refworld.org/docid/44a24c6c4.html

      B) Millions would not be returning, nor do they have the right to return, to Israel as it is Internationally recognized ” as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ (Israel’s actual borders have never changed.)

      “Were I an Israeli Jew, I would be terrified”

      Being terrified of Israeli propaganda designed to make you terrified only proves that propaganda works on people who don’t look beyond and what’s behind it ( nonsense to justify no RoR at all http://wp.me/PDB7k-W )

      “A solution will have to be found other than the right-of-return”

      Understandable IF you believe the nonsense Israel pumps out. Looking at the FACTS however, shows RoR to be justifiable and no actual threat to Israeli demographics IN Israel.

      The only threat is to the demographics in NON-Israeli territories acquired by war and never legally annexed to Israel.

      “This may or may not be a denial of justice, but it is reality”

      It is a denial of justice and it is NOT the reality. It’s Zionist colonial bullsh*t

  3. a blah chick
    a blah chick
    September 23, 2013, 3:21 pm

    I don’t see how there can be any real peace until the state of Israel and the Zionist community acknowledge publicly their complicity in the Nakba. I’m not even talking about apologies, just admit what you did. It’s history, it happened and you can’t run away from it. You need to accept responsibility for your actions.

    It’s one thing to lie to others but when you can’t admit the truth to yourself that indicates your principles are built on shifting sands. Perhaps as we get further away from the generation of the perpetrators it will get easier.

    • Walid
      Walid
      September 24, 2013, 8:49 am

      To accept responsability, Israel would have to pay; the parasitic Israel always takes but never gives.

  4. Eurosabra
    Eurosabra
    September 23, 2013, 8:12 pm

    It’s going to be an interesting conference and I’m certainly going to watch the whole thing. It’s all there in color: rebuilding demolished villages, RoR, material claims of internally-displaced Israeli citizens, total revision of citizenship laws, claims conferences, with the usual cast of critics and analysts and all held under the aegis of space, resources and work-hours of a major institution of the state the conference seeks to remodel. So I’m drawing blank as to why or how Palestinians strong enough to compel return to the State of Israel would also be forced by any regional or international actor to honor legitimate Israeli-Jewish rights, given the power shift that the conference presupposes. Or, should they conflict, the rights of non-Jewish Israelis. Also, the decentralized diffusion of power in Israeli and Palestinian societies implies that the marsiens of various groups and militias could easily disrupt any organized attempt at return.

    I’m also bitterly amused because I’m one of the few Jewish Israelis in Jerusalem who rents/rented from the non-displaced Palestinian owner a house built in 1961, and I would routinely meet 1948 exiles bent on making a claim to the property. So either the present owner is the beneficiary of some intra-Palestinian conflict or swindle (possible) or the essential point is that it is an existential *national* conflict and there is no Jewish title, rental, or presence possible.

    • annie
      annie
      September 23, 2013, 11:33 pm

      I’m one of the few Jewish Israelis in Jerusalem who rents/rented from the non-displaced Palestinian owner a house built in 1961, and I would routinely meet 1948 exiles bent on making a claim to the property.

      sure you are, anonymously of course.

      • Walid
        Walid
        September 24, 2013, 12:04 am

        The owner of the house is a non-displaced Palestinian and in Jerusalem on top of it???

        Give it a bit of time and the owner will also become another displaced Jerusalemite and Eurosabra declared the new owner. He’s already concluded that the owner is a shyster that obtained the house through some shady deal or that it’s part of a Palestinian nationalist plot to deny any possibility of it being really Jewish.

      • Eurosabra
        Eurosabra
        September 24, 2013, 1:04 am

        Remember what happened to George Khoury?
        http://www.haaretz.com/news/al-aqsa-brigades-apologizes-for-killing-israeli-arab-in-j-lem-1.117349
        It’s potentially not good for his health to let the world know who it is who has Jewish tenants. Everyone in West Jerusalem is apparently okay with it, the Municipality and the Arnona are, but it’s a big city in a big world with lots of different opinions and plenty of people willing to act on them. Particularly since I get the feeling that the pre-Nakba history of this parcel includes strong feelings about its ownership, 1936-39, and the Husseinis and Nashashibis and their dispute have been mentioned. No one who has come by way of nostalgia is willing to share the whole story with me, of course.

        It’s most likely that it’s a 1961-built house in the style of many older houses in the neighborhood, and the people involved are actually referring to a similar house elsewhere in the neighborhood, and misidentifying this one as a pre-war building. There are many Palestinian exiles from the neighborhood, after all.

    • talknic
      talknic
      September 24, 2013, 6:50 pm

      @Eurosabra ” I’m one of the few Jewish Israelis in Jerusalem who rents/rented from the non-displaced Palestinian owner a house built in 1961..”

      You’re illegally in non-Israeli territory (UNSC res 476)

      “or the essential point is that it is an existential *national* conflict and there is no Jewish title, rental, or presence possible.”

      There is no ISRAELI title, rental, or presence possible. Non-Jewish Israeli civilians are also prohibited from being in “territories occupied”

      “and I would routinely meet 1948 exiles bent on making a claim to the property. “

      Palestinian exiles? They’d be refugees. HOW DID YOU MEET THEM? Israel doesn’t allow them to return, they can’t get into Jerusalem.

      • Eurosabra
        Eurosabra
        September 24, 2013, 7:39 pm

        More verbiage. I’m going to make the same claim as this site makes with respect to East Jerusalem Palestinians: people have to live their lives. You obviously don’t agree, you’re a doctrinaire cut-and-paster on the wrong side of the world and of the issue.

        I suppose they could still have refugee status after taking a 3rd country passport, but some Palestinians do get into Jerusalem to visit both East and West, the world (and the Ministry of the Interior) is/are less inflexible than you.

      • Inanna
        Inanna
        September 24, 2013, 9:28 pm

        What you’ve written in not responsive. But the only comeback by zionists is evasion since you plural are in the wrong in your treatment of Palestine and the Palestinians. Have fun enjoying the fruits of your theft, massacres and ethnic cleansing. You won’t get to enjoy it long.

      • Eurosabra
        Eurosabra
        September 24, 2013, 10:48 pm

        You make me laugh: either this is total war, or it is not. For the most part, actual Israelis and Palestinians do not behave as if it is total war. Perhaps living in anticipation of future vengeance degrades an individual and is harmful, Wadie Said, Edward Said, and George Antonius all died of cancer, I would get yourself checked out on a regular basis if you’re going to seethe like that for the anticipated future.

      • Inanna
        Inanna
        September 25, 2013, 4:16 am

        Actual Jews and Palestinians didn’t behave like it was total war until a certain day in 1947 when it was total war. And many Palestinians died, were kicked out without being allowed to return and had their homes, lands, property, bank accounts, nation and state stolen from them. Those Jews lived in anticipation of a time when they would transfer all non-Jews out of Palestine. And they seem to have adjusted to their theft quite easily, except for the hyper-militarism and vigilance necessitated by trying to protect your ill-gotten gains.

        You seem to possess a poor knowledge of history. And an equally poor understanding of the causes of illness, not to mention being horrifically judgemental and cruel and ugly, thus revealing a great deal about you. I wonder how Jews who have died of cancer would feel if you judged them as you do these Palestinians who died of cancer. I’m sure all those Jewish women who carry the breast cancer gene will be delighted to hear what you have to say.

      • Eurosabra
        Eurosabra
        September 25, 2013, 5:29 am

        I agree, 2 December 1947, the date on which 82 Jews were murdered in Aden, far from Mandatory Palestine, in revenge for, well, nothing really. In revenge for their existence as Jews. Something something Zionism. Oh, wait, you probably meant December 12, 1947, the first Irgun aggression in al-Tira, Jerusalem, and Jaffa. As for history, I doubt my extensive knowledge makes any difference, it just means that I know the Palestinian militias (and later, Arab armies) were just as dedicated in their effort to relieve the Jews of Eretz Israel of their lives, safety, homes and property as the Jews were in defending themselves. And certainly misgivings dissolved in the face of the tremendous relief of survival and the immediate necessity of resettling nine hundred thousand Jewish refugees of the war waged on the Jews across the whole Arabo-Islamic world. I can write boilerplate too, you see. What would a Palestinian victory have looked like? The same, but with total genocide in place of expulsion, and the Europeans would have been unable to restrain themselves from finishing off the survivors of the Shoah still at hand, with history’s verdict on their previous effort so apparent in the Israeli defeat. A small, assimilationist country-club of a vanishing American Jewish community, and the end of the Jewish people. And Taxi, eljay, and RoHa to write here “Why would that have been a bad thing?”

        As for cancer, it cannot have done them much good to write, and meditate on defeat, and write again and ever and always about the lost land, and what the world owed them. I don’t know, perhaps I am wrong, Aref al-Aref lived to be 81, Ibrahim Abu-Lughod to 72, and in the end he returned to Jaffa as it is. I suppose I am the things you say, I have suffered a lot more than the average Israeli from the conflict, a lot less than the average Palestinian, probably, if one can quantify various forms of suffering, loss of friends, family, health, home, dignity, as actuaries do.

        To get back to the original subject of the post, this conference interests me precisely because these are the individuals who are talking about potential for reconciliation and reparation in the light of a situation I consider irreparably broken.

      • talknic
        talknic
        September 25, 2013, 10:53 am

        Eurosabra @ September 24, 2013 at 7:39 pm

        You didn’t answer the question… HOW DID YOU MEET THEM?

        Eurosabra @ September 24, 2013 at 10:48 pm

        ” For the most part, actual Israelis and Palestinians do not behave as if it is total war”

        Israel has ended its 65 years of occupation? WOW!!

        “Perhaps living in anticipation of future vengeance degrades an individual and is harmful, Wadie Said, Edward Said, and George Antonius all died of cancer …. “

        Oh OK … if you say so http://www.wcrf.org/cancer_statistics/cancer_frequency.php#WOMEN

  5. JustJessetr
    JustJessetr
    September 23, 2013, 11:37 pm

    Once Israel starts exporting liquified natural gas, the Palestinians will unfortunately become less and less important to the worldwide powers.

    And Israel will not disappear. That’s all in your minds.

    http://worldpress.org/Mideast/3969.cfm

    • Walid
      Walid
      September 24, 2013, 8:58 am

      Does that mean that Israel would stop asking for handouts from the Jews in the diaspora and from the American taxpayers? That would make a lot of people happy.

  6. talknic
    talknic
    September 24, 2013, 6:56 pm

    JustJessetr “Once Israel starts exporting liquified natural gas, the Palestinians will unfortunately become less and less important to the worldwide powers”

    The Palestinians will not become less important to the Palestinians

    “And Israel will not disappear”

    Good, will it get out of Palestine and allow its non-Jewish residents return? That’s the issue

    “And Israel will not disappear. That’s all in your minds.”

    That propaganda mantra is in your mind…

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