Trending Topics:

Jeffrey Goldberg assails NYT’s David Kirkpatrick for describing Israeli attitude as ‘ugly’

Israel/Palestine
on 62 Comments

The other day, Jodi Rudoren did an excellent piece on the degree to which Israelis regard the bloodshed and tumult in their Arab neighborhood as good news, because it makes the conflict in Israel/Palestine look like small potatoes. Chemical weapons in Syria and slaughter in Egypt are “a confirmation of a common Israeli view that their Arab neighbors are unready for democracy,” Rudoren wrote in the lead.

And she reported of her interviews with two dozen Israelis, all evidently Jewish:

There were repeated invocations of Ehud Barak’s infamous statement that Israel is a “villa in the jungle,” which caused controversy in 2006 but now is gaining traction even among liberals most sympathetic to the Arab cause.

David D. Kirkpatrick is the widely-admired Cairo bureau chief for the Times. His twitter feed has a periscope-like character; and he tweeted Rudoren’s piece, with a comment:

Amid Chaos, Israelis Take a Stoic View, Israelis with an ugly view of Arab democracy.

That tireless advocate for Israel, who once wore an Israeli Defense Forces uniform, Jeffrey Goldberg responded:

Ugly, maybe, but analytically correct?

Goldberg has many friends. Daniel Schwammenthal (he works for the American Jewish Committee’s global initiative) took Goldberg’s side:

If analytically correct, and it largely is,then reality is ugly, not Israel’s view.Shooting the messenger?

Kirkpatrick stood up for himself:

it depends on the aesthetics of the phrases “not ready for democracy” or “villa in the jungle”

Then Kirkpatrick seemed to blink:

I am not taking a position on true or false; just ugly

More backing and filling by Kirkpatrick, a minute or two later, responding to Goldberg:

I am not taking a position on that

Goldberg got highhorsical– but doesn’t want to offend the Times:

No offense, but “ugly and true” and “ugly and false” are morally quite different things.

Kirkpatrick rallies– a beautiful line:

even if I thought ‘my country is safe because of chaos and bloodshed around it,’ I would feel that was ugly

Kirkpatrick, still on the defensive, responds to Goldberg’s moral lecture:

an Israeli quoted in Jodi’s excellent story says as much, I think

Goldberg tells Kirkpatrick not to judge Israelis:

I don’t disagree with you on that, I’m simply saying that I wouldn’t judge someone who reached that conclusion too harshly.

Daniel Rubin, a lawyer in the Goldberg camp, puts Kirkpatrick in stocks:

So you shortened “correct, if worded without sugarcoating” into “ugly.”

Hat’s off to Kirkpatrick and his idea of universal human dignity.

This is a hugely important conversation. In Rudoren’s story, an Israeli says that the troubles in Israel’s neighborhood have put a nail in the coffin of the left there. I.e., who cares about making peace with Palestinians, when Arabs are slaughtering each other? I don’t think it’s a good argument. In fact, it’s degrading. But that’s where Israel’s advocates have to go.

(In 1958, Jacques Derrida, the leftwing philosopher, served in the French colonial army in Algeria and wrote in despair (as quoted by this biography) to a friend that Algeria “has never known democracy, has no tradition of it, offers no centre of resistance to a dictatorship of colonists.” But that was no justification, Derrida said, for the fascism he observed around him. Algeria gained independence 5 years later.)

philweiss
About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

Other posts by .


Posted In:

62 Responses

  1. seafoid
    seafoid
    September 1, 2013, 2:31 pm

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.544607#

    “Neither can anyone suspect that most Israelis who support an attack – 67 percent, according to a survey by the daily Israel Hayom – are motivated by concern for the well-being of Syria’s citizens.”

    I agree with Zbig

    http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/brzezinski-the-syria-crisis-8636?page=1

    “But in the long run, a hostile region like that cannot be policed, even by a nuclear-armed Israel. It will simply do to Israel what some of the wars have done to us on a smaller scale. Attrite it, tire it, fatigue it, demoralize it, cause emigration of the best and the first, and then some sort of cataclysm at the end which cannot be predicted at this stage because we don’t know who will have what by when. And after all, Iran is next door. It might have some nuclear capability. Suppose the Israelis knock it off. What about Pakistan and others? The notion that one can control a region from a very strong and motivated country, but of only six million people, is simply a wild dream.”

    • ivri
      ivri
      September 1, 2013, 2:53 pm

      “In the long run”
      In the long run we are all dead Seafoid. Such predictions have been around since the birth if Israel. In the meantime it got much bigger in population, immensely stronger, a close ally of the US and the Arab monolith is falling apart. So much for generalist predictions

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        September 1, 2013, 6:18 pm

        ivri, Israel is one of the key reasons that Arab democracies have failed, often what green shoots there were, they were toppled by force. Israel has done everything in its power to ensure that nothing but chaos and blood-shed will ensue in the neighboring countries. You might want to take a look at Syria’s history, going back to 1949, as one example. Lebanon, where Israel’s hand was in everything is another example, at least until hezbollah consolidated some of its power and a modicum of law and order was established (a major thorn in Israel’s side). Then we have Egypt of course, where israel was one of Mubarak’s tyrannical rule’s key supporters. And no doubt had a hand in the military coup by Israel’s ally Sisi. Lastly but not firstly there was Iraq, which also experimented in communism and democracy before these attempts were swept aside by Empire and israeli vassal (OK, that was before the Empire became israel’s vassal, but that’s another story).

        So there we have it – israel has been doing everything it could to bring chaos and misery to the ME – as far as it could reach – supporting the gulf states and Abdullah’s monarchy behind the scenes. heaven forbid that a little Arab Spring would break out there, right? If some of the ME was turned into a jungle, israel can claim much of the credit.

        Of course, the “villa” where israel thinks it lives is but a garrison state, protected by jewish lobby compadres in the US, UK, canada and Australia. A Lobby that has done more to derail a sensible foreign policy for America than anything else.

        But feel free to enjoy the fruits of your ugly labor. Including this last little false Flag perpetrated upon Syria. To listen to the voices on israeli facebooks baying for Syrian and iranian blood is to lose your faith in humanity (but you have to read hebrew to get the full extent of it. It is beyond bad…).

      • yrn
        yrn
        September 2, 2013, 7:57 am

        Israel is also the cause to your personal problems too…………

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 2, 2013, 5:28 pm

        @Danaa:

        “The Arab world wasted hundreds of billions of dollars and lost tens of thousands of innocent lives fighting Israel, which they considered is their sworn enemy, an enemy whose existence they never recognized. The Arab world has many enemies and Israel should have been at the bottom of the list. The real enemies of the Arab world are corruption, lack of good education, lack of good health care, lack of freedom, lack of respect for the human lives and finally, the Arab world had many dictators who used the Arab-Israeli conflict to suppress their own people.”

        Please, guess who wrote this paragraph? an Israeli? a Zionist? Hasbaratist? Hasbaraemmo?

        Just copy and paste to Google. You will be surprised.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 2, 2013, 12:48 am

        Ivri
        It goes way beyond hasbara and what israel did since 1948. The Israeli right is driving Israel where it shouldn’t go.

        “Tragedy resides in the solemnity of the remorseless working of things. ” Alfred North Whitehead

        And those zionist memes are nuts.

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      September 1, 2013, 7:42 pm

      Think for a moment and then think again. Israel is concerned about Pakistan .It is concerned about Pakistani military using the nukes .It is concerned of Pakistan posing a threat and posing a deterrence. Israel was concerned of Iran and Syria and Lebanon as Sharon asked in Feb ( Hareetz 2002 ) to confront those countries after Iraq were taken care of . Has Pakistan done anything against Israel? To the contrary israel has supplied India with enormous advanced weaponry .It has instigated and and supplied the rebel in Sindh province of Pakistan. It was caught spying in Kashmir by kashimiri muslim rebel in 1990s . It one time approached India with plans of mounting an attack on Pakistani nukes.

      It seems the fear of muslim nation out of its own guilt and intransigence will never be peacefully resolved .In that case Israel will never stop seeing an existential threat as long as long Islam lives. Not a good situation !

  2. ivri
    ivri
    September 1, 2013, 2:47 pm

    Well, it`s true that 65 years of hatred and terrifying slogans (we shall throw you into the sea), a terrible suicide-bombing Intifada, a sequence of bloody wars, an infinite stream of violent threats, etc., etc., has done something to the “Israeli soul”. The world has always been about symmetry – and the Arabs, in their (unwarranted) obsession with Israel (and also partly with the US – possibly as a consequence) have earned the counter-attitude honestly.

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      September 1, 2013, 5:49 pm

      “…has done something to the “Israeli soul”. ”

      LMAO. Yeah, and if israel has a soul, it’s as black as coal and stinks like sulfur. A gang that can pull off the Nakba and glory in the ethnic cleansing and apartheid of another people in their own land for generations will have nothing other than that.

      “the Arabs, in their (unwarranted) obsession with Israel (and also partly with the US – possibly as a consequence) have earned the counter-attitude honestly.”

      Rarely is bald racism phrased so gently. It’s like someone gave a Klansman an English lesson.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 1, 2013, 6:06 pm

      Well, it`s true that 65 years of hatred and terrifying slogans (“we shall throw you into the sea”), a terrible suicide-bombing Intifada, a sequence of bloody wars, an infinite stream of violent threats, etc., etc., has done something to the “Israeli soul”.

      Herzl’s writings revealed 115 years ago that the Israeli would was always going to be ugly, violent and cruel.

      So counter-attitude and symmetry you are referring to
      is the consequence of Zionist imperialism, conquest and colonialism.

      Rapists and pedophiles don’t get to blame the victims for their own persecution complex.

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 1, 2013, 6:32 pm

      >> Well, it`s true that 65 years of hatred and terrifying slogans … , a terrible suicide-bombing Intifada, a sequence of bloody wars, an infinite stream of violent threats, etc., etc., has done something to the “Israeli soul”.

      What has also done a number on the “Israeli soul” is:
      – Jewish terrorism and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and lands;
      – the establishment of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine;
      – the supremacist “Jewish State’s” 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction, torture and murder;
      – the supremacist “Jewish State’s” refusal to honour its obligations under international law; to be held accountable for past and on-going (war) crimes; and to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

      Yeah, aggressor-victimhood sure is a tough gig… :-(

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      September 2, 2013, 12:27 am

      You are regurgitating the arguments that was regurgitated every year by the Israeli since at least 1917. Its the same argument of justifying of current situation on some selective renderings of past events ,on some pick and choose kind of formula , and on the expectation that the whole story would never come out of darkness imposed by the media ,by the colonial elite,by the hatred filed censorship and by the racial entitlement supplanted with religious claims that could have been due for redeeming 3000 years ago.
      One still wonders how 60,000 ill prepared Arab army of 1948 was Goliath and 120,000 trained Jewish army was the David and how in 1947 advancing Jewish army could have 2 planes in the sky guiding and helping its movement against the Palestinian villagers . EXODUS was commisoned to reecho and immortalize those sentiments based on deceptive manipulation and imagination .
      But then there are instances like those distortions every year and could be found by anyone as long he does not depend on zionist sources for truth.

    • ziusudra
      ziusudra
      September 2, 2013, 6:58 am

      Greetings ivri,
      That Slogan:
      … we shall throw you into the sea….
      came from no other than the chief honcho high Zion-Nazi Golem Ben Gurion:
      If we don’t fight, they’ll throw us into the sea.
      ziusudra

    • Walker
      Walker
      September 2, 2013, 11:00 am

      65 years of . . . terrifying slogans (“we shall throw you into the sea”)

      If you can produce credible evidence that any Arab ever said “we shall throw you into the sea”, do so.

    • annie
      annie
      September 2, 2013, 5:58 pm

      ivri, i did you the service of correcting/editing your allegation by dispensing of the quotemarks. let me know if you come up for a source, aside from morris who claimed he heard someone else say he heard it somewhere. snake.

  3. hophmi
    hophmi
    September 1, 2013, 3:19 pm

    Because it’s Israel’s fault that the Arab Spring isn’t doing well, right? The Arabs are never actually responsible for any of their own actions.

    • K Renner
      K Renner
      September 1, 2013, 5:06 pm

      How best to respond to this repugnant off-track post?

      First, congratulations on finally learning that Arab(s) has a capital “A” when you’re (dismissively and hostilely) talking about them as a people.

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      September 1, 2013, 5:50 pm

      “Because it’s Israel’s fault that the Arab Spring isn’t doing well, right? The Arabs are never actually responsible for any of their own actions.”

      Well, cut out the US foreign policy and the israeli state out of the ME, like the festering infections they are, and they you might have a point. Absent that, then you’re just spewing your typical racism.

      • Mayhem
        Mayhem
        September 1, 2013, 9:55 pm

        Tanaka one of the comments you made that makes you one of the poster boys on MW

        We shouldn’t tolerate zionism anymore than we tolerated the Nazis

        Tanaka, your remarks reek of racism which you profess to deplore when you hypocritically denounce Hophmi saying “you’re just spewing your typical racism”.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 2, 2013, 7:08 pm

        Tanaka, your remarks reek of racism

        No Mayhem.

        Zionism is racism. Anti racism cannot be racism.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 3, 2013, 7:43 am

        Tanaka one of the comments you made that makes you one of the poster boys on MW

        We shouldn’t tolerate zionism anymore than we tolerated the Nazis

        So you think we should tolerate Nazis??? That’s a very strange opinion to have. I for one, have not tolerance for any ideology that says that a people — by virtue solely of their ethnicity — have a right to seize and hold the land of another and to deny them absolute equal human, political and civil rights in all things and the vote for the government that controls their lives, regardless of what that ethnicity is.

        “Tanaka, your remarks reek of racism which you profess to deplore when you hypocritically denounce Hophmi saying ‘you’re just spewing your typical racism’.”

        Nothing racist about it. I have no problem with the people; I have a problem with the actions and the ideology.

        Tell me this, Mayhem: I believe in one state between the Med and the Jordan with every person there, regardless of religion or ethnicity or nationality being entitled to absolute equality, an equal vote in the government and all civil, human and political rights protected. How about you? Or, in your mind, there needs to be Jewish domination of the political power against the non-Jewish half of that population? What reeks of racism is the Apartheid Jewish state. No, it doesn’t just reek of racism, it embodies it.

  4. K Renner
    K Renner
    September 1, 2013, 3:33 pm

    “Chemical weapons in Syria and slaughter in Egypt are “a confirmation of a common Israeli view that their Arab neighbors are unready for democracy,” Rudoren wrote in the lead.”

    This is ugly. Anyone who actually is interested in the Arab states and the people within know that it’s not a matter of “Da Ayrabs don’t understand democracy because they don’t understand democracy!”

    Almost as idiotic as claiming that Arabs are culturally monolithic and that fictional cultural monolith is totally alien to the rest of the world.

    It’s worth noting that democracy, or at least democracy for the jews– something incessantly lauded by the defenders of Israel– is largely based around the idea of the jewish population having a homogenous goal– to keep Zionism “fresh” in perpetuity– and that there’s no real substantial political dissent amongst jewish circles, as the majority of the country seems to have bought the falsehood that “the Arabs are anti-Jew and are against Israel because we’re jews.”

    If, for example, half the jewish population actively opposed likud, and refused to serve in the army, and voted to actually try and establish a lasting and effective dialogue with Palestinians– then the “hard Zionists” most of all would argue for continuance of Israeli policy and “damn democracy”.

    That’s one of the main reasons that they don’t want equal numbers of Palestinians living within the borders– they wouldn’t want to take their votes into account, but in not doing show, they would show themselves up for what they are:

    A racialist state that trumpets about “democracy” when it knows the vast majority of the voters will vote in favour of its actions.

    • ziusudra
      ziusudra
      September 2, 2013, 7:09 am

      Greetings Renner,
      Do Israelis have access to Mondoweiss?
      Living in a Democracy they are free to post.
      Where are their thoughts & perspectives?
      Do the Falesteeni have Access to al jez.?
      Where are their thoughts & perspectives?
      One gets little info from These two peoples
      on Press, Al J, Mondoweiss, RT.
      ziusudra
      PS I was thrown off Israel Today because I
      daily laughed at the 100% Evangelical audience
      & their apologetic view of the Old Testement & Talmud,
      as fairy tales & hasbara.

      • annie
        annie
        September 2, 2013, 6:08 pm

        Do Israelis have access to Mondoweiss?

        yes, they absolutely do ziusudra, and they can even get paid to do it. read:
        Covert online students hasbara units directed out of Israeli PM Netanyau’s office.

        http://mondoweiss.net/2013/08/covert-online-students-hasbara-units-directed-out-of-israeli-pm-netanyaus-office.html

        As an aside, last year staff at Mondoweiss became informed/aware one of the posters participating on our forums at that time was using an ip address out of the Israeli PM’s office. One wonders what prompted the open announcement of these “covert” units at this time.

        so they are definitely amongst us, of the paid variety. or maybe they just love spending their ‘breaks’ on mondoweiss. we do have posters who openly claim to be israelis too, of the zionist and anti zionist variety.

        but since the program is covert, “The idea requires that the state’s role not be highlighted…….”

        sometimes, i’m sure they even disguise themselves as batting for the other team, pushing the envelope so to speak, and sometimes even crossing the line into thinly, or not so thinly, veiled anti semitism.

  5. Citizen
    Citizen
    September 1, 2013, 3:58 pm

    Main Street is de facto defenseless against what OWS called the 1%, which controls jobs and media narrative, and similarly in the Middle East, the Arab Street is controlled by the international 1%. Main Street everywhere in the world is the avenue for cannon fodder and indentured servitude.

  6. Nevada Ned
    Nevada Ned
    September 1, 2013, 4:37 pm

    This is, of course, a conversation among Jews. This IS the NY Times, after all.
    Did anybody think to include a Palestinian perspective? Who might say that “many Israeli Jews are not ready for democracy”. (Was Alabama or Mississippi really a democracy before desegregation?)
    And when I say “a conversation among Jews,” the NYT also excludes those Jews who have articulated a clear-eyed critique of Israel’s racism.

    Israel is a Herrenvolk Democracy: a democracy limited to Jews. For non-Jews, Israel is a non-democracy.

  7. yrn
    yrn
    September 1, 2013, 5:47 pm

    I guess all of the same residents of mondowiess don’t see what all the world see for the last two years in the ME.
    A huge Arab spring that instead of turning those country’s into some balance and stability, looks at the outcome.
    Vicious butchers coming out, butchering their own people, making all the ME to the most unstable section in the planet, based on any conflict you can count, Secular, Ideology, religious, economic.
    The world explores those two years and understand quite good, who is the only stable place around and that’s what freaks you all out.
    You see how Israel is blooming, with great economical growth and stability and it eats your heart out of envy.
    But for you, routine…. the Arab spring is still blooming in your dreams , while the butchers are slaughtering their Nations free and the only issue as usual is your ongoing obsession spew on Israel.
    Keep on if it brings your souls satisfaction

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      September 1, 2013, 6:15 pm

      It really is incredible, isn’t it yrn? Everybody gets all happy (me included) when the Arab Spring comes to Egypt and says yay, democracy. Israel, standing almost alone, reminds people that there is still a central conflict between military strongmen and Islamic fundamentalists and that it may impede the creation of a functioning democracy.

      Israel alone turns out to be right.

      Mondoweiss responds by blaming Israel for the ills that plague Egypt.

      • philweiss
        philweiss
        September 1, 2013, 8:54 pm

        Hophmi, I dont blame Israel for the ways that the Arab Spring is working itself out. I blame Israel for a brutal occupation and ethnocracy….

      • giladg
        giladg
        September 1, 2013, 11:13 pm

        Philip, you have to blame Israel. Otherwise you loose the very essence of what you do every day. You cannot afford to be wrong, no matter how Arab Muslim actions are and have been going back 100 years and more.

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        September 2, 2013, 8:28 am

        /I blame Israel for a brutal occupation and ethnocracy…/
        The word brutal kinda changed it’s meaning when put into ME context haven’t it ?

      • OlegR
        OlegR
        September 2, 2013, 8:30 am

        /ethnocracy/
        Nation state has not lived out it’s purpose for Jews so you should start elsewhere…

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 2, 2013, 3:15 pm

        “Hophmi, I dont blame Israel for the ways that the Arab Spring is working itself out. I blame Israel for a brutal occupation and ethnocracy….”

        Yeah, exactly.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 4, 2013, 12:14 pm

        The word brutal kinda changed it’s meaning when put into ME context haven’t it ?

        Not unless you are suggesting a massacre changes the meaning of mass murder.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 4, 2013, 12:17 pm

        Of course it’s outlived it’s purpose for Jews Oleg, which is why Israelis are deserting Israel in droves.

      • just
        just
        September 1, 2013, 9:34 pm

        How many times has Israel been “right” hopmi?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        September 1, 2013, 9:48 pm

        The vast majority of the time.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 1, 2013, 10:38 pm

        Israel, standing almost alone, reminds people that there is still a central conflict between military strongmen and Islamic fundamentalists and that it may impede the creation of a functioning democracy.

        That’s a creative argument Hop, but ignores reality.

        Those strong men have been supported and aided by the US to keep the masses in check.

        Declassified memos from the Eisenhower administration revealed that Washington was aware of the sentiment in the Arab world that the US supported dictators and was blocking economic progress and democracy in the name of US interests and that this was true,

        The memo concluded the policies were fine so long as the Arab world tolerated it, so even then, they knew the backlash would be innevitable.

        Gross injustice and corruption created the vacuum that gave rise to Islamic fundamentalism.

        Israel alone turns out to be right.

        Right about what? Israel is unsustainable.

        Mondoweiss responds by blaming Israel for the ills that plague Egypt.

        Many of those ills are the consequences of military dictatorships funded by the US. Even as Congress deliberates cutting that aid, Israel is demanding it continue.

        How can you possibly deny Israel’s complicity?

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 1, 2013, 6:39 pm

      I guess all of the same residents of mondowiess don’t see what all the world see for the last two years in the ME.

      As usual, you have it completely backwards Yrn.

      The vicious butchers are all being supported by the new axis of evil – the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia. In spite of all the PR, Israel’s reputation in the world continues to fall like a stone and only enjoys approval in the US where the Israeli lobby is all powerful.

      The world explores those two years and understand quite good, who is the only stable place around and that’s what freaks you all out.

      No Yrn. That’s not what the world sees at all. Israel is not a stable place by any means, it is the eye of the storm. It is not blooming, it is metastasizing and decaying. It is not stable, it is more precariously positioned than it has ever been. It’s economy is grinding to a halt and it continues to ask for more and more money from the US.

      http://www.timesofisrael.com/start-up-life-less-attractive-now-study-finds/
      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-15/israel-2016-yield-drops-on-bets-slower-growth-to-spur-rate-cuts.html
      http://www.haaretz.com/business/business-opinion/.premium-1.538846
      Booming economies don’t rely on aid to function.

      Stabl;e

    • Walid
      Walid
      September 1, 2013, 6:58 pm

      Yes, yrn, read about the deal your great country made this week with Uganda to accept the 50,000 African refugees it was about to kick out. Really great and stable country and humanitarian too.

      Great advanced testing facilities at Ness Ziona too. Is that where they produced the chemical fertilizer for the cherry tomatoes?

      • just
        just
        September 1, 2013, 7:17 pm

        Thanks for bringing those damning truth(s) back to the table, Walid.

        Ness Ziona the real Nessie monster.

        Such an “innocent democracy” Israel is!

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 1, 2013, 10:14 pm

      >> You see how Israel is blooming, with great economical growth and stability …

      Yes, it’s absolutely amazing what stealing and/or controlling most of a region’s land and resources, and having the economic, financial, political and military backing of the world’s superpower, can do for a country.

      >> … it eats your heart out of envy.

      It scares you to think that when support for your supremacist, colonialist state finally dries up, you will be in very deep shit with “the Arabs” – both in and around your state – that you’ve been proudly and brazenly f*cking over for 60+ years.

    • Xpat
      Xpat
      September 1, 2013, 10:45 pm

      @yrn,
      You are just gloating that Israel has repeatedly succeeded in breaking Palestinian resistance and has not been punished by the world community either. Enjoy your “democracy” flourishing on arming wars around the globe and crushing its own population within. This is your victory lap. But the game is far from over. You are sitting on your own volcano and Israelis know this. No amount of schadenfreude at Syria and Egypt will make your own situation any better.

      http://www.jpost.com/National-News/10-percent-of-Israelis-believe-peace-talks-will-resume-shows-poll-318523

  8. just
    just
    September 1, 2013, 6:53 pm

    “The other day, Jodi Rudoren did an excellent piece on the degree to which Israelis regard the bloodshed and tumult in their Arab neighborhood as good news, because it makes the conflict in Israel/Palestine look like small potatoes. Chemical weapons in Syria and slaughter in Egypt are “a confirmation of a common Israeli view that their Arab neighbors are unready for democracy,” Rudoren wrote in the lead.”

    Kudos to Jodi for that truth! Anyone who celebrates “bloodshed and tumult” is sick to the core. Arabs are totally ‘ready’ for democracy that suits their culture and hopes– leave them alone without the reality of Israeli hatred and wars and US wars (and manipulations by both), and they could teach both of us a thing or two… or three.

    Zionism IS ugly. Israel as it exists today, IS ugly. So is their enabler– us. Neither one of us has actually produced a real “democracy”. We are, after all, young nations in comparison. Who are we to dictate to others, when we are so very imperfect ourselves?

    Jeffrey Goldberg is a confirmed bigot.

    • Ellen
      Ellen
      September 1, 2013, 7:28 pm

      And he writes for Bloomberg news. Known to carry the water of intrenched interests. It is a news organization that has become nothing more than stenographers. No research, no investigations, just fast copy fed to them.

      Would a real news organization hire Goldberg?

  9. DICKERSON3870
    DICKERSON3870
    September 1, 2013, 7:46 pm

    RE: “There were repeated invocations of Ehud Barak’s infamous statement that Israel is a ‘villa in the jungle’, which caused controversy in 2006 but now is gaining traction even among liberals most sympathetic to the Arab cause.” ~ Jodi Rudoren’s article

    MY COMMENT: To the extent the Middle East is a “jungle”, The U.S., the U.K. and Israel have helped considerably in fashioning that “jungle”! ! !

    FOR INSTANCE, AS TO THE CIA HAVING SUPPORTED THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD IN EGYPT (beginning in the mid-1950s), SEE:
    “The CIA and The Muslim Brotherhood: How the CIA Set The Stage for September 11” (Martin A. Lee – Razor Magazine 2004)

    [EXCERPTS] The CIA often works in mysterious ways – and so it was with this little-known cloak-and-dagger caper that set the stage for extensive collaboration between US intelligence and Islamic extremists. The genesis of this ill-starred alliance dates back to Egypt in the mid-1950s, when the CIA made discrete overtures to the Muslim Brotherhood, the influential Sunni fundamentalist movement that fostered Islamic militancy throughout the Middle East. What started as a quiet American flirtation with political Islam became a Cold War love affair on the sly – an affair that would turn out disastrously for the United States. Nearly all of today’s radical Islamic groups, including al-Qaeda, trace their lineage to the Brotherhood. . .
    . . . For many years, the American espionage establishment had operated on the assumption that Islam was inherently anti-communist and therefore could be harnessed to facilitate US objectives. American officials viewed the Muslim Brotherhood as “a secret weapon” in the shadow war against the Soviet Union and it’s Arab allies, according to Robert Baer, a retired CIA case officer who was right in the thick of things in the Middle East and Central Asia during his 21 year career as a spy. In “Sleeping with the Devil”, a book he wrote after quitting the CIA Baer explains how the United States “made common cause with the Brothers” and used them “to do our dirty work in Yemen, Afghanistan and plenty of other places”.
    This covert relationship; unraveled when the Cold War ended, whereupon an Islamic Frankenstein named Osama bin Laden lurched into existence. . .

    SOURCE – http://ce399fascism.wordpress.com/2011/02/09/the-cia-and-the-muslim-brotherhood-how-the-cia-set-the-stage-for-september-11-martin-a-lee-razor-magazine-2004/

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      September 1, 2013, 7:49 pm

      P.S. ALSO FOR INSTANCE, AS TO THE U.K. HAVING SUPPORTED THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, SEE:
      “Secret Affairs”, By Mark Curtis, Reviewed by Kim Sengupta, The Independent, 7/30/10

      [EXCERPTS] For years, violent Islamist groups were allowed to settle in Britain, using the country as a base to carry out attacks abroad. This was tolerated in the belief that they would not bomb the country where they lived and that, as long as they are here, the security service would be able to infiltrate them. At the same time mosque after mosque was taken over through intimidation by the fundamentalists. Police and others in authority refused pleas from moderate Muslims with the excuse that they did not want to interfere.
      There was even a name for this amoral accommodation: the “covenant of security”. We now know that jihadists will indeed blow up their home country and that the security agencies signally failed to infiltrate the terrorist cells while they had the chance.
      The part played by officials in the growth of terrorism in Britain is a relatively small-scale affair compared to what went on abroad. Successive UK governments had nurtured and promoted extremists for reasons of realpolitik often at a terrible cost to the population of those countries. Mark Curtis, in his book on “Britain’s collusion with radical Islam”, charts this liaison. He points out how reactionary and violent Muslim groups were used against secular nationalists at the time of empire and continued afterwards to back UK and Western interests.
      The price for this is now being paid at home and abroad. I am writing this review in Helmand, where a few days ago I went on an operation with British and Afghan troops against insurgents whose paymasters, across the border in Pakistan, have been the beneficiaries of US and British largesse.
      Curtis points out that two of the most active Islamist commanders carrying out attacks in Afghanistan, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Jalalludin Haqqani, had particularly close contacts with the UK in the past. Hekmatyar met Margaret Thatcher in Downing Street when he was a favourite of MI6 and the CIA in the war against the Russians. Haqqani, while not the “Taliban’s overall military commander fighting the British” as Curtis says (he runs his own network parallel to the Taliban), was viewed as a highly useful tool in that conflict.
      The Western use of the Mujaheddin as proxy fighters is well documented. It resulted in the spawning of al-Qa’ida, the spread of international terrorism, and the empowering of ISI, the Pakistani secret police, who became their sponsors. Curtis examines the lesser known by-products of this jihad: the dispatch of Afghan Islamist veterans, with the connivance of Britain and the US, to the wars in the Balkans and the former Soviet republics in central Asia, and ethnic Muslim areas of China. Vast sums of money from the West’s great ally, Saudi Arabia, helped fund the Reagan administration’s clandestine war in support of repressive military juntas in Latin America while, at the same time, buttressing the aggressive Wahabi faith embraced by many terrorist groups.
      The use of hardline Islam by the West was particularly prevalent at the time of the Cold War. In many instances, however, the targets for destabilisation were not Communist regimes but leaders who had adopted left-wing policies deemed to pose a threat to Western influence and interests.
      The UK attempted to combat “virus of Arab nationalism”, after Gamal Abdel Nasser came to power in Egypt and nationalised the Suez Canal, by forging links with the Muslim Brotherhood, an organisation involved in terrorism. The nationalisation of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company by the democratically elected Iranian government of Mohammed Mossadeq led to a British-American organised coup which was facilitated by Ayatollah Seyyed Kashani, one of whose followers was the young Ruhollah Khomeini. In Indonesia, the removal of Ahmed Sukarno in another military coup by the UK-US was carried out with the help of Darul Islam. Its followers went on to massacre socialists and trade unionists.
      In each of these cases the clandestine backing of Britain and the US strengthened Islamist groups at the expense of secular bodies and moderate Muslims. These groups then went to form terrorist groups whom the West would later have to confront in the “War on Terror”. . .

      ENTIRE BOOK REVIEW – http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/secret-affairs-by-mark-curtis-2038691.html

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      September 1, 2013, 7:51 pm

      P.P.S. AND, FOR INSTANCE, AS TO ISRAEL HAVING SUPPORTED THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD (IN THE FORM OF HAMAS), SEE:
      SEE: “How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas”, By Andrew Higgins, The Wall Street Journal, 01/24/09

      [EXCERPT] Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor’s bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile’s trajectory back to an “enormous, stupid mistake” made 30 years ago.
      “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel’s destruction.
      Instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah. . .
      . . . When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and ’80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.
      “When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake,” says David Hacham, who worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early ’90s as an Arab-affairs expert in the Israeli military. “But at the time nobody thought about the possible results.” . . .

      ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

  10. RoHa
    RoHa
    September 1, 2013, 8:58 pm

    “Jacques Derrida, the leftwing philosopher”

    I choke on the fifth word.

  11. RoHa
    RoHa
    September 1, 2013, 9:22 pm

    Mountebank, charlatan, pretender, fraud, snake-oil salesman, intellectual con artist, polysyllabic grifter.

    Those will do for starters.

    • just
      just
      September 2, 2013, 3:30 pm

      Not a fan RoHa?

      {masterful use of language, I must say!}

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 2, 2013, 11:39 pm

        “Not a fan RoHa?”

        Not really. I suspect that he is at least partly responsible for the decline of the left.

    • Tuyzentfloot
      Tuyzentfloot
      September 2, 2013, 4:41 pm

      Yeah, philosophers. Eeuuuww! Playing solemn word games and writing academical texts that discuss other texts that discuss other texts… Oh wait, that’s not what you mean :)

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 2, 2013, 11:38 pm

        “Oh wait, that’s not what you mean :)”

        Exactly. Derrida discusses texts. Philosophers discuss issues.

  12. just
    just
    September 1, 2013, 9:41 pm

    Deconstruction.

  13. Citizen
    Citizen
    September 1, 2013, 11:21 pm

    Deconstruction of Western philosophy’s bipolar premise.

  14. Krauss
    Krauss
    September 2, 2013, 2:02 am

    The universal attitude in the Israeli media, even from “leftist” like Chalev in Haaretz, has been to attack America for ‘weakness’.

    The hilarious thing, of course, is that Israel itself isn’t prepared to join the attack, but only wants to play defence even if it has far superior military capabilites than Syria & Hezbollah combined.

    If Israel’s is ‘America’s greatest ally’ then why does it act as a parasite?
    We should thank our 5th column friends, AIPAC, for ensuring that they get away with it, continually.

    Still, when a U.S. president struggles to even attack Syria there’s no way in hell he’ll get an Iranian war, which the lobby fears, and rightly so. This is delicious. Cut Israel loose and dump it in the river.

  15. OlegR
    OlegR
    September 2, 2013, 8:21 am

    /Hat’s off to Kirkpatrick and his idea of universal human dignity./

    Which human dignity the one gunned down in Egypt or the one gassed in Syria?

    And yes as an Israeli i feel pretty good about myself when i see the kind of neighbors that i have (don’t confuse with feeling good about what they do to each other) and with the kind of stance the rest of the “civilized” world takes toward
    what our neighbors do to each other.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 2, 2013, 7:09 pm

      And yes as an Israeli i feel pretty good about myself when i see the kind of neighbors that i have

      You mean, doing what Israel does – murdering people by the thousands?

  16. seafoid
    seafoid
    September 2, 2013, 4:30 pm

    Zionism is ugly but above all it is contrived.

Leave a Reply