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‘Netanyahu is a Nazi’: Scenes from an Orthodox anti-military draft protest in Jerusalem

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Over 300,000 ultra-Orthodox Israelis hold a prayer protest in central Jerusalem against a military draft bill, March 2, 2014. (Photo: Allison Deger)

They arrived by bus and despite their youth they were veterans of demonstrations honoring the rabbi’s of the extreme-right and protesting negotiations with the Palestinian leadership. But last Sunday their focus was on a Knesset bill to draft Israel’s ultra-Orthodox into the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). Over 300,000 heeded the calls amplified on religious talk radio and shut down central Jerusalem with a tearful and gender segregated prayer protest.

“Lapid is dead.” “Lapid, he’s a Nazi.” “Lapid wants to die fast, from the heavens God sees everything,” said a group of teenage ultra-Orthodox (also called Haredim) girls from the Tel Aviv area. They likened Israeli Finance Minister Yair Lapid,  the main backer of the compulsorily conscription legislation, to the assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, suggesting he would meet a similar fate. In the past week Lapid has taken the brunt of Haredi discontent against the military service measure, and even received a death threat days before the march.

“He’s a monkey, he’s a dog,” said the girls. Then turning their attention to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and the secular-nationalist Economic Minister Naftali Bennett, both of whom are also backers of the draft bill, they said, “Bennett is an anti-Semite. Netanyahu is an anti-Semite. Lapid is an anti-Semite,” the teens continued, adding “Lapid he is a shiksa [Yiddish for a non-Jewish woman, with the connotation of a harlot], but Netanyahu, he is a shiksashiksa!”

Netanyahu, Bennett and Lapid, “they will cut our subsidies, the money is for us,” the teen continued. As with many Haredim, the young women feared the loss of government support the state provides them would go hand-in-hand with military service.

(Photo: Allison Deger)

(Photo: Allison Deger)

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(Photo: Allison Deger)

In 1948 Israel’s first prime minister—a secular labor Zionist—David Ben-Gurion struck a deal with the religious sector. The ultra-Orthodox of that day were not fully convinced of Zionism and the construction of a Jewish nation-state, but were very much in favor of a Jewish presence in the holy land. They were granted a pass from army duty, and instead could receive subsidies to study the Torah, which was intended to provide supplemental income during the years young Israelis are of draft age. Yet today scores of ultra-Orthodox continue their religious education indefinitely. They opt for state benefits in lieu of employment, and view prayers as their service and contribution to society.

At the time Ben-Gurion made the deal, the ultra-Orthodox comprised only 1% of the population of Israeli Jews, but today they represent 12% and are the base of the declining powerhouse right-wing Shas party. Yet in Israel’s secular population, where 30% of the citizens pays 80% of employment taxes, middle and low-income families feel the Haredim are a financial burden. The measure to conscript ultra-Orthodox is therefore supported by nearly every sector of Israel’s often factional political life, and was part of Lapid’s campaign platform during the last election cycle.

“Everyone, including those who are shouting, because they are expected to shout, knows that not one person studying Torah will be sent to jail. Period,”  wrote Naftali Bennett, chairman of the ultra-nationalist Jewish Home party that typically aligns with religious parties, on Facebook on Sunday in advance of the demonstration. Bennett remarks come during a rift between right-wing parties and a coalition crisis within the ruling bloc. “There is no Jewish historical precedent for non-participation in the workforce. Rabbi Yochanan was a shoemaker. Maimonides was a doctor. Rashi was a vintner. Throughout the history of Israel, our leaders worked,” he continued.

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(Photo: Allison Deger)

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(Photo: Allison Deger)

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(Photo: Allison Deger)

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(Photo: Allison Deger)

The ultra-Orthodox opposition to the state of Israel continues to date, and overtly anti-Zionist Haredim chose to demonstrate in Tel Aviv on Sunday, rather than Jerusalem. By contrast the Jerusalem demonstrators—though often referred to as “anti-Zionist” due to this historical aversion to the state— support Israel as a Jewish state. Only 20,000 of some 800,000 ultra-Orthodox do not recognize the state of Israel as legitimate and do not receive government benefits, according to Tamar Aviyah a secular-leftist Israeli and one of the Tel Aviv protest organizers.

“We believe that with our study God guards us and without that the powerful army cannot protect us,” said Ziv Kelley, 45, another protester at the anti-military draft demonstration. Once secular, today he is ultra-Orthodox. Kelley used to be an IDF paratrooper, but had a spiritual awakening while in army service in Lebanon during the 1980s. Kelley said he feared the new bill, which is slated to go into effect in three years, would cut his grants and force him to seek employment.

“If you come to the land and an Arab has a house and you don’t believe in the Torah, who are you to kick him out?” asked Kelley explaining how the secular leaders of Israel existentially need the religious, “But if you come with the Torah, it’s your land,” he continued.

Kelley went on to scorn Arabs and Palestinians as selling “deceit to the world,” that they had any claim to what he views as prophetically ordained Jewish land. “If you are coming from a religious point of view, in the Torah it says that God gave this land to the Jewish people,” he said. The Palestinians, he mused, should be segregated into “cantons,” even those who are Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel.
Allison Deger
About Allison Deger

Allison Deger is the Assistant Editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow her on twitter at @allissoncd.

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114 Responses

  1. seafoid
    seafoid
    March 6, 2014, 4:42 pm

    “There is no Jewish historical precedent for non-participation in the workforce. Rabbi Yochanan was a shoemaker. Maimonides was a doctor. Rashi was a vintner. Throughout the history of Israel, our leaders worked,” he continued.”

    they all work in the States. Even if it is just in makey uppy jobs such as Shatnez Inspector.
    800,000 is a lot of people with no modern education. Big problem for Israel with that birthrate.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/should-haredim-work-yes-can-they-not-so-fast.premium-1.477587
    ” Worse still, these subjects are probably being taught poorly in the Haredi schools. A Haaretz analysis published last week of the nationwide Meitzav examination of school achievement found that 54% of Haredi elementary school students tested in the bottom two deciles. Admittedly, only a small percentage of schools gave the test at all, but given the absence of teaching to begin with it is hard to imagine that the other schools as a group would perform any better.

    But our jobseeker doesn’t know any of this. After all, almost no one else he knows has ever applied for a job and he never got a taste of the bottom rungs of the labor market by working as a waiter or call service drone while a student. He goes from employer to employer with a CV highlighting his lack of experience and education, fails a battery of job tests, refuses to shake hands with his female interviewer and looks at her curiously when she makes a passing reference to some bit of popular culture.

    So our job seeker fails, which would not surprise him if he had seen and understood the statistics.
    The unemployment rate among Haredi men is similar to the rest of the uneducated population. A study by the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies tracked a steady decline in employment rates for men between 35 and 54, with four years of education or less, from 1979 to 2011. The line shows a steady descent for them and Haredi males to less than 50%. The reason, of course, is that neither group has the qualifications to work in a modern economy. Whereas three or four decades ago, you could learn your skills on the job, working today requires a skill set that takes years of preparation in and out of school. The uneducated simply don’t obtain it. “

  2. eljay
    eljay
    March 6, 2014, 5:01 pm

    >> … scores of ultra-Orthodox continue their religious education indefinitely. They opt for state benefits in lieu of employment, and view prayers as their service and contribution to society.

    Useless, supremacist people complaining that the state won’t finance their uselessness (even if it does approve of their supremacism). Amusing, but very sad.

  3. mikeo
    mikeo
    March 6, 2014, 5:31 pm

    There are also Orthodox protests up the road from me in London

  4. just
    just
    March 6, 2014, 5:58 pm

    wow.

    Seems that the Orthodox are the true opponents to the government of Israel. holy moly– seems that Israel has much more to fear from within than from outside……..verrry interesting.

    BDS with all of your might while there is so much discontent at “home”! Come on World, the achilles heel is more than visible!

    • piotr
      piotr
      March 6, 2014, 6:33 pm

      You got it all wrong. Only few of them oppose Zionism (most such Orthodox did not emigrate to Israel). To the contrary: they defend Israel with their studies and prayers. Moreover, and most importantly, they defend Israel as a Jewish state, not some amalgamation of cafes and industries that could as well be in Singapore. This is what Netanyahu demands: the right of Israel to be a Jewish state.

      But it shows that it is highly contentious what a state has to do to be Jewish. Some say that Torah study should be the top priority, and their numbers are increasing.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 6, 2014, 7:40 pm

        “Some say that Torah study should be the top priority, and their numbers are increasing.”

        As I have pointed out before, if the trend continues, no Jews in Israel will work. And no Jews will join the military. The Israel Arabs will have to support them. And defend them. How long will that last?

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 6, 2014, 8:27 pm

        >> As I have pointed out before, if the trend continues, no Jews in Israel will work. And no Jews will join the military. The Israel Arabs will have to support them. And defend them. How long will that last?

        According to JeffB, ” … the facts clearly show that Israel is willing to work with populations to help them assimilate*.”

        Before you know it, non-Jewish Israelis will be fully-assimilated, second-class “Jewish State” citizens, ready to defend the supremacist “Jewish State” and its first-class, unproductive, scripture-studying, supremacist Jewish population.

        (*I can’t wait for yonah to take him to task for using that dirty, dirty word!)

  5. James North
    James North
    March 6, 2014, 6:20 pm

    Can anyone doubt that Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Islam are two branches of the same religion?

    • thankgodimatheist
      thankgodimatheist
      March 6, 2014, 6:33 pm

      “Can anyone doubt that Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Islam are two branches of the same religion?”
      I’d worry more about militant Judaism/Zionism than Orthodox Judaism that rejects the concept of a Jewish state.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 7, 2014, 2:52 am

        Fundi Judaism and Fundi Islam have a lot in common – naivety, misogyny, economic incompetence, jihad, jihliyeh, the notion that some book says everything you need to know. BTW Justice Scalia would fit right in with these people.

        Wahabbiism and those Militant settler IDF feeder schools in the West Bank should merge and colonise Mars and leave the rest of us in peace.

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        March 7, 2014, 11:23 pm

        ‘Fundi Judaism and Fundi Islam have a lot in common – naivety, misogyny, economic incompetence, jihad, jihliyeh, the notion that some book says everything you need to know.”
        Oh, you don’t want to get me started on those ones, Seafoid, especially this vile strain gone rogue as on display in Syria right now.. My revulsion and disgust can be too strong to display publicly. BTW, I can’t be sure this is a direct reason but the ranks of atheism are growing by the day and thank “god” for that. :)

    • just
      just
      March 6, 2014, 6:34 pm

      I can.

      • just
        just
        March 6, 2014, 6:48 pm

        Please tell me of the similarities that you discern, James North.

    • gamal
      gamal
      March 6, 2014, 7:03 pm

      what is “orthodox” Islam?

      • just
        just
        March 6, 2014, 7:14 pm

        good question, gamal.

        I am slightly hesitant to enter the fray that might ensue, but I am very curious as to any answer that your question might elicit.

      • gamal
        gamal
        March 6, 2014, 9:33 pm

        me too, but I cant imagine what that fray might consist of? keeping in mind of course 9.97, and even without delving into the plethora of porno ahadith

        الْأَعْرَابُ أَشَدُّ كُفْرًا وَنِفَاقًا وَأَجْدَرُ أَلَّا يَعْلَمُوا حُدُودَ مَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

        translit:
        AlaAArabu ashaddu kufran wanifaqan waajdaru alla yaAAlamoo hudooda ma anzala Allahu AAala rasoolihi waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun
        Literally:
        The Arabs stronger disbelief and hypocrisy and more suited that they not know limits what God revealed His messenger and God knowledgeable, wise.

        well obviously there is going to be confusion, especially amongst Arabs,

        there was at one time an obsessive production of creeds by scholars because no one could be sure of anything, we dont know what we believe and live with indeterminacy, bit like the world as it is experienced, anyone claiming to speak for Islam is a charlatan, in the 30 years or so I spent professionally amongst high level Ulema I recall the constant self deprecating shrugs and the desire avoid any possibility of a positivistic assertion of “correctness” but they were all the old generation trained in the 30’s and 40’s in the old socratic manner, their Islam was a cool kind of chaos, with room for everyone and thing, how unlike us evolved Muslims of today and our vile certainties and hubristic moralism, foremost in hypocrisy and venality, indeed.

        Still I think the form Orthodox Islam is strange if not actually oxymoronic it feels that way to me, but then what do I know? James may well be right I would like to know what he thinks though, as they say “the journey is the goal”.

        Zionism is going to have defeat its main rival which is Judaism, Judaism has proved somewhat resilient over time, in fact there is a hadith through which Islam predicts that Judaism will last till the end of time , well the Quran was right about Rum and Persia, but in the end who knows?

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 6:42 am

        Gamal, Jews and Christians aren’t the only one with skeletons in their closets, but at least they can talk about them and question them without dreading the knock at the door.

      • piotr
        piotr
        March 6, 2014, 7:22 pm

        “Orthodoxy” means “the true way” if I recall. It may beggar belief why people would chose a wrong way if “the true way” is available, but it is actually quite natural if regrettable. Personally, I am an agnostic (meaning, I am not eating theists for lunch) but theistic beliefs are very interesting. So, back to “orthodox Islam”. Since the word is Greek, Muslim would not describe themselves as Orthodox, but some do claim to follow “the true way”. OK, many do.

        As I was surfing the web, I found out that the Prophet (P.B.U.H.) predicted that the Faithful will split into seventy two sects, and the followers of one of them will go to the Paradise, while the rest to the Lake of Fire. One web source stressed a lot the need of following the correct sect, which is Barelvi (of course!). By the way, some Barelvis view Wahhabism as a result of a Jewish conspiracy.

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 6, 2014, 10:15 pm

        Definition-wise, Orthodox Islam is Sunni Islam that constitute 80% of Islam. The remaining 20% are Shia, that in relation to the Sunni are somewhat akin to what Protestantism is to Catholicism. The word Shia is the shortened version of the term Shia’t Ali, or the followers of Ali, which was the Prophet Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law. The Sunni go by what is written in the Qu’ran and the Ahadith, literally with no margin for interpretation. The Shia go what is written in both as interpreted by the Imam, the spiritual leader.

        Within the Sunni, there is a small fundamentalist minority that strives to return to the ways of the days of the Prophet that predates the Middle Ages, such as the Muslim Brotherhood, and an even smaller one that is ultra-fundamentalist, such as the Wahabists, that strive to make everyone return to the ways of the days of the Prophet whether they want to or not, and their ultra-ultra fundamentalist takfiri offshoot that will cut off your head if you refuse to.

      • gamal
        gamal
        March 6, 2014, 11:22 pm

        obviously i vehemently disagree, but not necessarily on good grounds, I cant think of a significant Sunni figure who has not been accused of Shia sympathies, can you? the brotherhood were a modernising movement explicitly contra-Wahhab,

        I like “ultra-ultra fundamentalist takfiri offshoot that will cut off your head if you refuse to.” I had a Moroccan student once who, with some of the class declared me a heretic, they were reprimanded by the old guys and they excluded themselves from my stuff for the rest of the year, then I became an Imam impresario and had loads of gigs to offer, he brazenly befriended me and poached other Imams contracts leading to a very intense freak out when he bullied one lovely African out of an assignment to lead some Black American Muslim followers of Amina Wudud, he physically attacked them when the men and women lined up undivided, he did not complete the course, I got a call from the senior Imam asking who I had sent, I told him, there was a pause “Mustapha went” “oh, how did it go” I asked, “They threw him out, as he seems to be mad” he concluded.

        the hideous link is to some interesting stuff, which i think tends to support what you have written but then be a good witness even it is against yourself as they say, but it gives a feel of the sense of collapse and ferment of those times that al-Banna was addressing, his family and mine have been friends for years and my father could not return to Egypt after ’54 until after Nassers death, but he admired Nasser and was always critical, though understanding of al-Banna.

        http://books.google.com.jm/books?id=OVc1Gg6xjuoC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=hasan+al+banna+and+modernisation&source=bl&ots=xG_FP0s7oz&sig=GZKAYEcuUSig_s7qs-hxWCs-fWE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U0AZU6fAG8r1kQfOg4DACQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=hasan%20al%20banna%20and%20modernisation&f=false

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 3:43 am

        “… the brotherhood were a modernising movement explicitly contra-Wahhab,”

        Still evident today with Egypt’s current outlawing of Hamas in Egypt and the pressure put on Qatar to find alternate accommodations for Mashaal, possibly in Iran as it’s the only place he hasn’t been yet declared unwelcome. Qatar that’s into “Brotherhood-mild” is in trouble with the less mild Saudi, Emerati and Bahraini Wahabists that pulled their ambassadors from Doha because it wasn’t doing enough to distance itself from the Brothers in Egypt and Gaza. Turkey’s Erdogan, also a Brother, is in the same hot water with foes East, West and South cooking up something or other against him for speaking up for Egypt’s Brothers.

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 9:43 pm

        “They have to import most of their food. ”

        seafoid, with Dutch help, they are now exporting potatoes grown in sand. Tastes like it sounds.

      • gamal
        gamal
        March 6, 2014, 10:38 pm

        “Since the word is Greek, Muslim would not describe themselves as Orthodox” Greeks and Greek words were unknown to Muslims? dimucratiya? The concept of orthodoxy is of course well known, Orthodoxy has no Islamic meaning, there is a good deal more to the 72 sects stuff, deobandi/barelvi is of course Indian, you dont find Arab deobandis or barelvis,

        “some Barelvis view Wahhabism as a result of a Jewish conspiracy.” yes its an embarrassing piece of idiocy, historically of course most Levantines and Arabians have Jewish connections and ancestry historically, why my tribe as well, the ” ‘Awf”, it hasnt caused me to conspire to against Islam, yet.

        http://www.oodegr.com/english/istorika/romi/al_rum_al_orthodox.htm

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 6, 2014, 11:43 pm

        The word “orthodox” is used only as a point of reference to help non-Muslims situate Sunni on the word map. They are not any more orthodox in the Christian religious sense of the word than are the Shia in the Protestant sense of another. If we go by definitions, with the Christians, the Orthodox are more catholic than the Catholics themselves and the Catholics are actually more protestants in relation to the Orthodox than the Protestants are to them, the Catholics.

      • piotr
        piotr
        March 7, 2014, 8:40 am

        Deobandis seem very related to Wahhabi or Salafis, and quite clearly, Wahhabi/Salafis do not draw the same conclusions as other Sunnis. I do not understand the theological reasoning, but they cover their women much more, and are also more iconoclastic. Barelvi seem to be similar to sufis, so it is not a simply Indian theology either. Clearly, they have big trouble with Deobandis, like Taliban, and Deobandis get financial support from Saudis and perhaps other Wahhabi monarchs.

        If we have to draw parallels, Catholic steps from a word for “universal”, and Orthodox, “right way”, so clearly they are self-descriptors “we are the correct ones”. Sunnis view themself as universal, “the Umma”,

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 9:04 am

        piotr, Wahabism started over a couple of hundred years ago by one Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahab (1703–1792), a Saudi that was chased out of Iraq for his preaching that eventually found refuge in the House of Saud. In a nutshell, Bin Abdul-Wahab made a deal with the Sauds of his time that if they’d let him have full control of the fundamentalist religion as he saw it, he would campaign on their behalf to let them rule over the people. The deal worked for both parties as Bin Abdul-Wahab and his subsequent followers eventually made the Sauds number 1 in the land and they became the country’s religious gurus, hence the name “Wahabism”. The philosophy of Bin Abdul-Wahab is interesting and worth looking up since it somewhat explains the tsunami of change that the whole of the ME is undergoing because of it as it’s spearheaded by Saudi Arabia, its bastion .

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 7, 2014, 9:22 am

        @ Walid

        Wahbbism is pure desert thinking. That sort of backward notion of purity can only come from a culture where everything is scarce . You don’t get Wahhabi thinking in cities such as Karachi or Alex that are open to trade. Sufism would be more their style.

        One of the most interesting things about Saudi is that it has retained the Wahhabi thinking even as the population has exploded.

        It is very hard to see Saudi maintaining that population when the oil runs out. They just don’t have enough water. They have to import most of their food. It’s a fascinating mix of conservative religious and moral thinking and insane economic optimism. All thanks to oil, the devil’s juice.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 8, 2014, 12:46 am

        @Walid

        “with Dutch help, they are now exporting potatoes grown in sand. ”
        Does Mahane stock them?

        Impressive but if they have no oil and no water how are they going to grow anything ?

        They already import 64% of their food . What does the Qur’an say about contracting out food production to infidels ?

        http://www.arabnews.com/news/465464

        Allah bifridjha. Bukra fi mishmish !

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 8, 2014, 2:57 am

        seafoid, they have invested billions since 30 years with just about anyone that would start an industry of some kind, even absurd-sounding ones that could employ people to be operational by the time the oil would eventually dry up. They have also been paying to keep 100,000 students in colleges (mostly in the US) for that same reason. Most probably the cost of the exported sand-potatoes by far exceeds the (approx $6 million) revenue they are generating since very large government subsidies are surely part of this scheme. Mahane must be happy with all this potato-chatter and the link below will explain to him how the Saudis are doing it:

        https://research.cip.cgiar.org/confluence/display/wpa/Saudi+Arabia

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 7, 2014, 12:50 am

        orthodox- ortho must have its root in “straight” rather than “truth”, as in orthogonal angles meaning right angles and orthodontist meaning a dentist who straightens the teeth.

      • puppies
        puppies
        March 7, 2014, 4:21 am

        Friedman – You get an F even for that. “Orthós” is not necessarily straight but also upright, standing, or correct, or true, the latter a correct translation here. Or correct as in orthodontics.

      • NickJOCW
        NickJOCW
        March 7, 2014, 9:16 am

        Just as the dox roots from doxa, belief/opinion, Ὸρθος + δοξα

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        March 7, 2014, 10:51 am

        orthodox- ortho must have its root in “straight” rather than “truth”

        only if you leave out “doxa”, opinion, perception, appearance and other meanings that don’t fit in here; from “dokein”, believe, mean, decide, seem.

        Of course matters get a lot more complicated if you consider the historical development: doxa

      • gamal
        gamal
        March 7, 2014, 3:43 pm

        Piotr: yes, Deoband and Bareilly are towns in India and the Barelvi’s emerged as a reaction against the Deoband Madrassa, as to connections, well the remnant of the Muwahhidun Ikwan who after the second or third time the Ottomans exterminated them sought refuge in Deoband, where the British quartered them, so the story goes.

        As to theological connections well yes obviously the Barelvi’s are more specifically Indian, with their emphasis on folk religion, but the Deobandi are also mainly Chistiya Sufi’s, i know weird eh, politically they were no less inept than the Deobandi’s, the Barelvi’s are or were very anti-Hindu and vociferous supporters of the Pakistan movement, despite their cuddly “Sufism”, the Deobandi, both groups call themselves the ahle sunnah wal jamaat, to add to the confusion, but the Deobandi’s opposed the Pakistan movement and Jinnah, deriving their ideas from Shah Wali Allah, they were more vociferously anti-imperial, and while doctrinally no less anti-Hindu they were more pragmatic politically, like Wali Allah.
        Its a bit complicated and while one would probably expect the Tablighi Jamaat to have been derived from Barelvi thought it along with the Jamiat Ulema e Hind were Deobandi in inspiration, thus explaining why the Tablighi, who are basically Bhakti yoga practitioners are so insolent towards and intolerant of Hinduism, I prepared a report for the UK gov on Muslim movements in the UK in 90’s and all were amazed by the Tablighi’s intolerance, as there was a feeling that the Tablighi could be used for anti-radicalization exercises because they are seen as anti-salafi, they proselytize only amongst Indo/Pakistanis, ignoring Arabs leaving the Jumma, when i tried to engage them in the plaza of the London Central Mosque they told me to go to hell, not interested in Arabs or strange mishlings/hajeeni’s like me.
        I am not sure i understand what you are saying about connections, I mean the British empire certainly links them to the Wahhabi’s, so I am not sure what you have discovered. I do hope you dont think that there is some theological logic to all this, its Islam man, lighten up.

        Vivian Ibrahim has written about Mir Awlad Ali in Ireland in the 18oo’s, my how things have changed.

        Any one read Hempher?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_Mr._Hempher,_The_British_Spy_to_the_Middle_East
        so Akhi, “a Saudi that was chased out of Iraq for his preaching that eventually found refuge in the House of Saud.” well wiki is ok on him, he got chased out of Najdi Uyayna too and his brother called him an ignorant fool.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Abdul_Wahhab

        well I am off to get drunk, smoke weed and play pool its Friday after all, everyone tells me that i will not survive here without getting intimate with a “pastor” or some such for adminstrative purposes, as a Muslim my choice is the local Saudi trained Sheikh, I cant see us becoming intimate, despite my clubable ways and my life long service to the cause of Islam, my conception of it anyway, several young guys came to ask me to teach them Sufism, I had to tell them “If your Sheikh finds out who I am and that you have spoken to me he will denounce you, you cant afford to be seen with me” and infact it has come to pass so that they dont even salute me on the street, I only get saltations from the Rasta’s “guidance” they bless me with and I gratefully receive it.

      • gamal
        gamal
        March 7, 2014, 6:52 pm

        “Jews and Christians aren’t the only one with skeletons in their closets, but at least they can talk about them and question them without dreading the knock at the door.”

        but the Muslim Arab world is ruled by Islamic skeletons, or what skeletons do you mean, they came out sometime ago. Are there still some left in there, shit! you may know of ones of which I am unaware. Knock on the door, whats with the understatement, its the being beheaded with a penknife which pisses me off.

        do i understand to you to be saying that if you say something “critical” about Islam or refer to one of these “skeletons” you fear what exactly? Christians and Jews of whatever ethnicity have nothing on Muslims (by birth) when it comes to denouncing Islam, sometimes we get stabbed etc for it, unfortunate but what you going to do? assert our inferiority?

        The thing is if you fall for this Zionism is a Jewish conspiracy reductionism the above events are inexplicable, but since it now has a state Judaism exists in a number of ways, as it always has but now one of them is as a state and Zionism (in Israel at least) is going to have to co-opt them all. You have all the state Rabbi’s etc and the more organic non-state groups who have a more semi-detached relationship with the state than other Israeli Jews. If Israel is in fact the Jewish state then surely she should support the activity of exclusively studying the Torah, so it has to do with who defines not Jewishness but the core Judaism , and Zionism is going to have to subsume Judaism within itself if it is avoid conflicts with other loci of Jewish authority, and as a Muslim I have to say welcome to the party, now your sorrows have really begun. You notice the takfiri tendencies of some Zionist commentators here, its inevitable and these conflicts will be explained in doctrinal religious terms whatever their underlying and proximate causes, I wonder how long before Israeli Jews can produce exemplary Zealots like us one can only hope that they dont run of out Palestinians and Arabs too soon.

        anyway I have enjoyed this thread though i do worry that i am little more than an off topic bore but thanks i enjoyed it Walid, remembering of course that anathematization and excommunication is never far off from any of us, if its not Islam its the bloody left or patriots, to be fair Rabbi’s deserve their turn at this grim game.

      • puppies
        puppies
        March 8, 2014, 1:33 am

        @gamal – Off topic? Not on your life. Been the most interesting discussion in a while. Thank you.

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        March 7, 2014, 11:25 pm

        what is “orthodox” Islam?
        Literalist, conservative, constipated Islam.

  6. thankgodimatheist
    thankgodimatheist
    March 6, 2014, 6:22 pm

    “If you come to the land and an Arab has a house and you don’t believe in the Torah, who are you to kick him out?”
    Reminds me of an interview with a French settler in the Nouvel Observateur:
    “Without this” he said holding up a Torah “we would be nothing but thieves”
    The irony is that he doesn’t mind that not everyone is obliged to share his beliefs and that in the eyes of those who don’t he’s, effectively, nothing but a thief. Apparently it doesn’t bother him. Strange thing, religion.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      March 7, 2014, 11:59 am

      @ thnakgodimatheist

      I’m reminded of this quote regarding the Torah jew you quoted:
      “Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

      • libra
        libra
        March 7, 2014, 6:22 pm

        Citizen: Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

        What an absurd statement if only because when Mein Kampf was written the author was sitting in jail with his war against the Jews (and the Slavs) just a future dream.

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        March 7, 2014, 11:29 pm

        Thanks Citizen for this quote. Effectively, and I can see how it is playing in the society of settlers (and Israelis) in general.

    • Walid
      Walid
      March 7, 2014, 2:52 pm

      TGIA, speaking of the French press, have you been keeping up with the young Jews in Paris that are taking Krav Maga martial arts courses sponsored by the French JDL and given by ex IDF forces? Seems they are forming militias to roam the streets supposedly to protect defenseless Jews against racist attacks along the lines of the Guardian Angels.. It’s the same group, as per al Jazeera, along with the JDL that put ads in French papers a couple of years back to recruit volunteer fighters to protect the settlements on the WB. I thought that this was a new happening but on reading further on the subject, it’s written that such vigilante forces have been around in France for decades and that more often than not, they are the ones doing the attacking on innocent civilians causing injuries to hundreds, but that the French authorities never do anything about them. Every 2 years or so in February, they go on a rampage to hurt people to commemorate the brutal torture and killing of the young Moroccan Jew, Ilan Halimi.

      From a definitely anti Crif and anti JDL (France) site:

      http://www.egaliteetreconciliation.fr/Milices-juives-en-France-a-quand-la-dissolution-20147.html

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        March 7, 2014, 11:40 pm

        Walid, I’m not on the ground anymore but from what I gather from what I still read online is that there’s a complicity between the fascistic JDL thugs and the police as the former are NEVER prosecuted for their crimes. Yes, they have training camps for young Jews in the country side of Paris. They also organise Summer holiday trips to the West Bank where they lend a hand in beating and harassing the natives. In Paris it’s become a routine to attack whomever they deem an “enemy of the Jews” and any criticism of Israeli policies qualifies one for that. Their violence is incredibly vicious, sudden and brief. Libraries where pro-Palestinian books can be found are a favorite target.
        And yes, they’ve been around since the 70s. They used to go under the name of Beitar, assuming the qualitative of far-right without much protest. .

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        March 8, 2014, 12:11 am

        BTW, they’re banned everywhere, including Israel, but curiously enough not in France:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League

        Their Facebook page displays Meir Kahane’s photo as their profile pic. In that page one can read the latest post that a fight took place between their goons and “Palestinian terrorists” (Stone throwers as per their own description!) in Hebron just yesterday:
        “Juste avant Shabbath, affrontements entre des militants de la Ligue de Défense Juive et des terroristes palestiniens lanceurs de pierres à Hévron.”
        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ligue-de-D%C3%A9fense-Juive-Paris-Officiel/229628647210004

  7. thankgodimatheist
    thankgodimatheist
    March 6, 2014, 6:28 pm

    ‘Netanyahu is a Nazi’
    Now you’ve been a bit unfair. He’s just far-right.

    • just
      just
      March 6, 2014, 6:54 pm

      “He’s just far-right.”

      And way wrong, in every way– in everything he says.

      He’s squirming now.

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        March 7, 2014, 12:24 am

        Darn! And I thought my sarcasm was barely disguised. Of course it’s wrong. In my book it’s the worst you can say about a politician or anyone for that matter.

    • gamal
      gamal
      March 6, 2014, 10:20 pm

      well Nazi as in national socialist is little disreputable these days, he could think of following Atun Sa’adeh, a Social Nationalist of the SSNP, it avoids all the unpleasantness, though Sa’adeh was tried, in secret and immediately executed. You just have to be so careful.

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 3:23 am

        Saadeh, a fiercely anti-Israel activist that tried to overthrow the Lebanese government was captured by the Syrians and returned to the Lebanese authorities that tried him, condemned him and executed him on July 8, 1949 by firing squad took all of 48 hours; very immediate as you said. The Lebanese Prime Minister at the time was Riad al-Solh, (Saudi Prince al-Waleed’s maternal grandfather). For the execution of Saadeh, the SSNP tried to assassinate al-Solh in March 1950 but failed. They tried again on July 17, 1951 in Amman and succeeded. 3 days later, King Abdullah of Jordan was assassinated in Jerusalem at al-Aqsa for the eulogy because he was suspected of working at making peace with Israel.

        Today, the SSNP is still around as is Gemayel’s Phalangist Party that was modeled after the German fascist one but both are rather weak.

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        March 7, 2014, 9:10 am

        ‘Shukran ya Walid’ for the information you give in so many fields concerning the ME, religion, culture,etc.. You, Hostage, Krauss , and several others are invaluable to this site.

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        March 8, 2014, 12:04 am

        “The SSNP”
        The part they took, together with the Lerbanese Communist Party in fighting the Israeli occupier in South Lebanon cannot be underestimated. We talk about Hizbullah and we forget them. Unfair. And now they’re unconditional in their support for the resistance. Long time gone since they started as an ultra-nationalistic party a la Germany 1930s. They’re on the left through and through.

  8. LanceThruster
    LanceThruster
    March 6, 2014, 6:57 pm

    G_d will provide, no?

  9. RoHa
    RoHa
    March 6, 2014, 7:13 pm

    I thought we weren’t allowed to call Israelis “Nazis”.

    • pabelmont
      pabelmont
      March 6, 2014, 9:23 pm

      “We” are not allowed to use “Nazi”, but “they” are allowed and do it all the time. After all, it is basically an emotional swear-word, and they are very emotional. Or, perhaps, they are using the word accurately, historically, rather than as a swear-word.
      They call BB a Nazi and BB calls the ayatollah a Nazi and I dare say the Ayatollah calls someone a Nazi.

      “We” and “they”? Or is it the other way? And whaddya mean “we” white-man? (And so forth.)

      Language! Lovely stuff.

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 6, 2014, 10:24 pm

        Same permissiveness afforded to Jews to call their Prime Minister “dog” and “monkey”. Also their calling him an antisemite clearly shows that this word hasn’t any real meaning and is used mostly for dramatic effect. It’s a stupid term.

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 6:27 am

        More on the expression the Jews just love to use, for real effect without any empty show business glitz, rather than call someone an antisemite, they should simply call him anti-Jew. Anti Jew or anti-Jewish is much more racist and dramatic than the idiot word.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 7, 2014, 9:30 am

        “Anti Jew or anti-Jewish” would be incoherent, Walid. Phil Weiss is not anti Jewish. He’s trying to save what he can from the fire.

        Wadi an naar, just east of al Quds ;)

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        March 7, 2014, 11:56 am

        @ Walid
        How about just “jew-hater”?

    • puppies
      puppies
      March 7, 2014, 2:13 am

      No? Who’s forbidding?

  10. The JillyBeans
    The JillyBeans
    March 6, 2014, 8:28 pm

    Well my head just spun reading that. This is the problem at the very least when you conflate religion and culture and try to make a state out of it. Something’s gotta give.

  11. ToivoS
    ToivoS
    March 6, 2014, 8:53 pm

    I think the ultra men are cute in their hair styles and medieval wardrobes. I find it difficult to ridicule a people who refuse to join the IDF or actively work to build the Israeli economy. They are certainly doing more to hurt the Israeli economy than any BDS movement has so far.

    • The JillyBeans
      The JillyBeans
      March 6, 2014, 10:05 pm

      In the US we have Conscientious Objector status we can opt for to get out of combat service. I’m thinking the IDF wouldn’t be so keen on that as a good excuse.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        March 7, 2014, 11:55 am

        @ JillyBeans
        In the US there’s no active conscription; has not been during our longs wars in the ME.

      • German Lefty
        German Lefty
        March 7, 2014, 5:44 pm

        In the US we have Conscientious Objector status we can opt for to get out of combat service. I’m thinking the IDF wouldn’t be so keen on that as a good excuse.

        Here’s what Shir Hever said about the Israeli military in a 2008 talk:

        (from 1:00 to 25:40)
        He starts talking about refuseniks at 14:45.

    • Walid
      Walid
      March 6, 2014, 10:29 pm

      Try imagining a cancer eating away at another cancer. They will bring Israel’s end, nothing else will. I welcome more of them into Israel and the sooner the better.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 7, 2014, 2:57 am

        I think it’s all politics. Most of them are ignorant. Nazi is a word they can be rallied around. They don’t understand deeper power concepts . They have an entitlement culture. They have been let down by the Ashkenazi secular elite. They need their entitlements because they can’t fend for themselves otherwise.

        Most trendy Ashkenazi professionals wouldn’t want a Haredi family as neighbors. They have a sort of Palestinian status in their pariahness but they are still Jews.

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 3:52 am

        “Most trendy Ashkenazi professionals wouldn’t want a Haredi family as neighbors.”

        Odd, that’s exactly how the snobbish and elegantly-dressed Sephardi treated the Ashkenazi in Western Europe at the end of the 18th and the start of the 19th centuries. They considered the uncultured Ashkenazi as the riffraff of Jews, wouldn’t inter-marry with them or attend their synagogues.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 7, 2014, 4:57 am

        What to say, ya Walid? Mish kuwayyis.

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/deputy-finance-minister-calls-ultra-orthodox-parasites-on-the-air-and-immediately-apologizes.premium-1.517310

        ” Deputy Finance Minister Mickey Levy (Yesh Atid) was speaking on the “From 8 to 10” radio program, hosted by Moti Lavi, on the Haredi radio station Kol Berama. Levy said that the ultra-Orthodox must “bear the burden together, join the job market, they can’t be parasites on the Israeli public, they can’t keep on with their world view that ‘We don’t work.’”
        Responding to his use of the term, Lavi asked his guest, “Aren’t you ashamed to say that on the air?” Realizing his mistake, Levy apologized immediately.
        That wasn’t enough for Lavi, who said, “You apologize because you realize you said something wrong, but it’s in your mind.”
        Levy replied, “I apologize for the term. I’m just saying that people can’t live — I’m changing it — they can’t keep on living, economically speaking, at the expense of people who pay taxes, people who enlist in the army, people who serve the state. You’re citizens who live in this country and have equal rights? Then share the obligations equally, too.” ”

        They always say the Arabs are backward but Lebanon has a much longer history of living together and respecting identity.

        Zionism was thrown together in a hurry and the strains are showing now.

        Ya salam.

        The money shot :

        http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/anti-semitism-is-rearing-its-head-in-tel-aviv-1.276001

        Gideon Levy / Anti-Semitism is rearing its head in Tel Aviv
        By Gideon Levy

        “Anti-Semitism is raising its head. Not in Warsaw, Munich or Paris, and there’s no need for the Anti-Defamation League to wave the evidence around. It’s right here, in our own home, in verdant Ramat Aviv, the most enlightened suburb of Tel Aviv, our most enlightened city. The entry of a handful of ultra-Orthodox Jews to this lovely, modest and tranquil neighborhood has provoked an unlovely wave of racism, tearing the thin veil of openness and liberality from this seemingly left-wing community. If anyone were to behave this way toward Israeli Arabs, the residents might raise a hue and cry, but when it comes to Haredim the gloves are off because attacking the “blacks” is the fashion.

        They stand on street corners – God help us – offering men the opportunity to don tefillin: the scandal. They’ve rented a few apartments to sleep in, and perhaps even to teach Torah: a disaster. A handful among the neighborhood’s secular inhabitants: a takeover, the very image of Beit Shemesh. The jargon of the neighborhood’s “action committee” recalls days best forgotten. Its Web site speaks of finding “apartments rented to Haredim in order to apply pressure on landlords.”

        What kind of pressure, exactly? Why, for God’s sake? Why the fear? Don’t Haredim, like any minority, have the right to live in the neighborhood? No, not when it comes to Haredim, the punching bag of the left. What nationalist Israelis do to the Arabs, the left does to the ultra-Orthodox. There’s no difference. Demonization, dehumanization, scare tactics and the sowing of hatred.

        Hatred of the Other is the same, whether the Other’s name is Mohammed or Leibele, whether he wears a kaffiyeh or a shtreimel. It makes no difference whether the racist is an Arab-hating Kahanist or a Haredim-hating leftist: He is still a racist. Imagine such a committee operating in a European city opposing a so-called “Jewish takeover” of a neighborhood. We would sound a battle cry. But there are already “patrols” in Ramat Aviv by “enlightened” celebrity parents, and heartrending testimony. “Seducing Minors” shouts a headline on the Web site, as though denouncing pedophiles. What’s the deal? That Haredim tried to persuade a 13-year-old boy to put on tefillin?

        This is not a local issue. The attitude to Haredim is nationwide. It is an insular community, conservative and strict, not exactly my cup of tea. Most of them do not serve in the army (in accordance with a law passed by the nonreligious), some of them choose not to work and most live in dire poverty. They “suck the country dry.” We can excoriate them to our heart’s content without being suspected of racism. And so, they are victims of racism. Most were pushed out of formerly mixed neighborhoods in Tel Aviv, remaining only in the Sheinkin Street area, and how lovely the sight: a parent bringing three children to school on one bicycle, heavily bearded teachers, Yiddish as the language of daily life, mutual aid and other traditional customs alongside secularism at its best. Multiculturalism.

        One is not compelled to love them, identify with their odd leaders or admire the political power of their wheeler-dealers. One is compelled to oppose their violence when it occurs, but also to accept them as they are, as long as they obey the law. They are incalculably preferable to the settlers, who are much more violent and who have sown a much worse disaster in our midst, a plague on future generations, yet against whom no such bitter hatred is aimed. You know why? Because the struggle against the settlements and the occupation is not in the consensus and therefore demands courage and a high personal cost.

        Hatred of Haredim is in the consensus. There is no cost to attacking them; that is considered normal behavior. And so the people of Ramat Aviv, my dear neighbors, too cowardly to wage more important and just struggles, have established an action committee against the Haredim. But the Ramat Aviv of this committee is not only pretentiously trendy Ramat Aviv. The issue is not simply a single liberal neighborhood. This is Israeli society as a whole. Until we learn to accept those who are different or exceptional, we cannot call ourselves a tolerant and just society. Hatred of Haredim in Ramat Aviv, or Arabs in Safed, is the same disease. Is the cashier in your supermarket wearing hijab? That’s heartwarming. Next let’s let her wear a hat, or a wig.”

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 5:58 am

        It’s kuwayyis², seafoid. Decades back after the 67 beating they took, the Arabs concluded that they will never ever beat Israel militarily and that the only thing that will bring Israel’s end is itself with the internal strife that should build over time because despite the common belief that they are all made up of the same religion and speaking the common language and constituting a nation, they are actually made up of different human traits picked up from the different countries where they had lived for generations. The 2 articles you cited demonstrate this disparity between different groups eventhough they are of the same nation. The Arab prediction is starting to appear accurate. I’ve seen this happening in my youth when Jews for some reason or other had an aversion to other Jews more than to other people.

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        March 7, 2014, 5:46 am

        Walid…In other words
        فخّار يكسّر بعضه

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 7, 2014, 6:17 am

        Exactly, TGIA.

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        March 7, 2014, 9:49 am

        : )

      • pabelmont
        pabelmont
        March 7, 2014, 6:30 pm

        Hey, pretty orthodonture there, bintbiba, but what are you all saying (while chuckling openly behind your hands)? My Arabic is limited (way limited). Maybe to mishmish and kief al hal (which I’m told is wrong).

  12. Hostage
    Hostage
    March 6, 2014, 10:28 pm

    “If you are coming from a religious point of view, in the Torah it says that God gave this land to the Jewish people,” he said.

    I doubt this guy is the Jewish messiah. The Torah says this boffin should still be living somewhere else. Deuteronomy 28:

    63 And it will be, just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do good for you and to increase you, so will the Lord cause to rejoice over you to annihilate you and to destroy you. And you will be uprooted from the land which you enter therein, to possess it.

    64 And the Lord will scatter you among all the nations, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you will serve other deities unknown to you or your forefathers, [deities of] wood and stone.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      March 7, 2014, 11:27 am

      Hostage- Even the devil can quote scriptures to suit his purpose. There are different interpretations of the Torah and the quote from Deuteronomy promising exile might be taken as a command (as you are interpreting and as those who hold that the “three oaths” are of overriding importance might also interpret). But there are other interpretations that might suggest that such promises of exile are not eternal and the undoing of these punishments might not necessarily be dependent on the passive waiting for the arrival of the Messiah. I am not saying that your interpretation is right and that the man featured in Allison Deger’s post is not right, nor visa versa. But I think you should temper your interpretation at least with the observation that it is an interpretation and not the sole possible meaning of the text.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        March 7, 2014, 2:53 pm

        Hostage- Even the devil can quote scriptures to suit his purpose.

        Especially if he’s a Zionist plundering Palestinian land.

      • just
        just
        March 7, 2014, 7:00 pm

        “Even the devil can quote scriptures to suit his purpose”

        oooooh, you just tickled my funny bone, yonah!

        So the Zionist (mis) “interpretations” of the Quran so frequently bandied about by hasbarists are the work of the “devil”.

        Merci bien!

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba
      March 8, 2014, 4:58 pm

      @pabelmont
      ‘fokhar yikassir ba3do. means let earthen jars break each other.
      In Arabic sayings have a rhythm that when translated sound very banal.

  13. clenchner
    clenchner
    March 6, 2014, 10:44 pm

    “…secular-nationalist Economic Minister Naftali Bennett”
    The author has such a good, knowledgeable tone throughout. But not knowing that Bennett is Orthodox, as is his party, sends the message that she isn’t quite fluent in Israeli politics yet.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naftali_Bennett

  14. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    March 6, 2014, 11:54 pm

    “They were veterans of demonstrations honoring the rabbi’s of the extreme-right and protesting negotiations with the Palestinian leadership. ” The overlap of those protesting the draft and protesting negotiations is very small and this is a misleading and false sentence. Sloppy journalism!

  15. puppies
    puppies
    March 7, 2014, 2:09 am

    “Netanyahu is a Nazi!”
    Finally a Zionist is 100% right! Finally something we all can underwrite.
    After all these years, we finally have a branch of the Zionists one can talk to. Not like your “liberal Z” weasels. Bravo! Say it louder, “Netanyahu is a Nazi!”

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      March 7, 2014, 5:16 am

      Churchill told the House of Commons after the bots assassinated Lord Moyne

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Guinness,_1st_Baron_Moyne

      “If our dreams for Zionism are to end in the smoke of an assassin’s pistol, and the labours for its future produce a new set of gangsters worthy of Nazi Germany, then many like myself will have to reconsider the position we have maintained so consistently and so long in the past”

  16. bilal a
    bilal a
    March 7, 2014, 3:30 am

    In Israel, shiksa means an unclean ‘harlot’, ie dirty prostitute, but in mainstream American journalism and Hollywood discourse, it is an inoffesnive term for a gentile woman; it’s not about ethno-religious hatred.

    Why Hollywood’s Jewish guys fall in love with shiksas –
    Patrick Goldstein and James Rainey
    on entertainment and media –
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2009/10/why-hollywoods-jewish-guys-fall-in-love-with-shiksas-.html#sthash.mHIP5cXj.dpuf

    • Ecru
      Ecru
      March 7, 2014, 4:37 am

      Inoffensive? Sorry but anyone calling my wife, or any woman I care about a “shiksa” is going to have their face introduced to the nearest wall. Repeatedly.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        March 7, 2014, 7:19 am

        It’s definitely an offensive term.

      • bilal a
        bilal a
        March 7, 2014, 6:15 pm

        Back in the day, I constantly heard fellow college students echoing Roth’s fascination with the shiksa , coupled with the desire to seek revenge for the holocaust, through shtup-ing , whatever that is. Interestingly my friends never mentioned the male equivalent, shegetz, in my presence. This is a constant theme in Mel Kaminsky Brooks, depiction of the German woman, and he of course, married a Shiksa, pimping her as the cold WASP alcoholic sexual deviant Mrs Robinson, and once referring to the Queen of England, as the ‘biggest shiksa in the world’.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3lKbMBab18

        But this doesn’t mean that all Jewish humor is Christopathic, motivated by a pathological hatred of Gentiles, nor that all inter-religious romances are Rothian .

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      March 7, 2014, 8:31 am

      @ bilal a

      “But the shikses, ah, the shikses are something else again […] I am so awed that I am in a state of desire beyond a hard-on. My circumcised little dong is simply shriveled up with veneration. Maybe it’s dread. How do they get so gorgeous, so healthy, so blonde? My contempt for what they believe in is more than neutralized by my adoration of the way they look, the way they move and laugh and speak.”
      – Philip Roth, Portnoy’s Complaint
      Read: http://www.salon.com/2013/03/06/is_shiksa_an_insult_partner/

      http://judaism.about.com/od/glossary/g/Shiksa-Yiddish-Sayings.htm
      http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shiksa

      urban thesaurus: goyim

      For example, Seinfeld once did an episode about Elaine’s “shiksa appeal”. The ideal shiksa is a blonde WASP who look like the opposite of a stereotypical Jew,
      http://www.urbandictionary.com/thesaurus.php?term=goyim
      http://schvach.blogspot.com/2009/10/sowhats-shiksa-already-by-schvach-yid_04.html
      http://crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-you-should-never-call-someone-or.html

      • puppies
        puppies
        March 7, 2014, 9:43 am

        @Citizen – Exactly; there is strictly nothing “offensive” in this general-American-English usage. Just means non-Jewish, with a humorous turn for some.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        March 7, 2014, 11:45 am

        @ puppies
        Really? Is there anything offensive about the lusty ugly caricature jew seducing little German kids or beautiful young Aryan maidens in those books for K-12 put out in Nazi Germany?

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        March 7, 2014, 12:34 pm

        @ Puppies

        Seriously? So “fuzzy wuzzy” “golliwog” or “bog trotter” were not offensive because they came with some humour attached? Oh it’s OK to make bigoted comments as long as I’m trying to disguise it as a joke? Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Vehemently.

      • puppies
        puppies
        March 7, 2014, 1:49 pm

        @Citizen/Ecru – Get out of your personal cocoon and do a thorough search on the general American usage of the word. Use a couple search engines and classify the uses. Outside people knowledgeable in the arcanes of Judaism, probably also Hebrew, ancient and modern, it just means non-Jewish. Nothing else. One Yiddish word borrowed without its racial-religious-Ancient-Testament-and-sulphur semantic field. Same goes for “goy”. Or ask anyone who is living entirely outside the tribal community. That is how language questions are decided, by serious usage studies. Not by prescritivism and not by referring to original meanings, etymologizing, etc. And we are not talking usage among people calling themselves “Jewish”.
        The Yiddish word that I suspect to carry an enormously negative load is “Chutzpa”.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 7, 2014, 2:10 pm

        @Ecru

        Oh it’s OK to make bigoted comments as long as I’m trying to disguise it as a joke? Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Vehemently.

        So Puppies Mr I like to make anti-Jewish ethnic slurs himself is calling you out for your bigotry. Talk about the pot and the kettle.

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        March 7, 2014, 4:15 pm

        @ Puppies

        Outside people knowledgeable in the arcanes of Judaism, probably also Hebrew, ancient and modern, it just means non-Jewish.

        Oh lah dee dah. I remember people saying similar things about the term “coloured” – “it’s just a way of saying not white” and sod how it was received or the history the term had in regards to racial matters.

        ..it just means non-Jewish. Nothing else

        WRONG! It means what the speaker intends it to mean (do you not know what an ideolect is?) and what the listener interprets it to mean. Language is more complicated than dictionary definitions and even more complex than the individual words (gesture, tone, expression, posture all can modify meaning) and if you don’t know that you’re definitely in no place to lecture others on “how language questions are decided.”

        That is how language questions are decided, by serious usage studies. Not by prescritivism and not by referring to original meanings, etymologizing, etc.

        Oh fuck off when did I etymologize? And you’re the one indulging in prescriptivism here. Language questions are decided by the interplay of use and interpretation of use. Don’t pretend to knowledge you don’t have. You think “nigger” is just insulting because “white” people think it is? And maybe YOU should realise that the Internet is bigger than the USA. For example I’m in EUROPE you imbecile! So when I hear the word “shiksa” or “goy” (both heavily pejorative in the UK and Ireland) I have every right to get upset with the moron using the terms. So stuff that up your self-righteous arse!

      • puppies
        puppies
        March 8, 2014, 7:21 am

        @ecru – All right, Humpty Dumpty, a word is what you say it is. No usage study needed. By the way, I wasn’t aware of widespread use in English outside the US.

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        March 10, 2014, 4:47 pm

        @ Puppies

        I think you need to re-examine your own attitudes to non-Jews if you get this defensive about my taking offence at an offensive term.

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      March 7, 2014, 9:41 am

      “but in mainstream American journalism and Hollywood discourse, it is an inoffesnive term for a gentile woman”

      No, it’s simply treated as that. But that doesn’t make it non-offensive any more than the fact that people used to use “nigger” in casual conversation turned that into an inoffensive word.

  17. German Lefty
    German Lefty
    March 7, 2014, 6:16 am

    OT: German writer Frank Schätzing has a new book out. The thriller is titled “Breaking News” and deals with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
    http://www.stern.de/lifestyle/zynismus-zionismus-frank-schaetzimgs-neuer-roman-2094708.html

  18. giladg
    giladg
    March 7, 2014, 7:09 am

    From your first sentence “honoring the rabbi’s of the extreme-right”, it is clear you do not know what you are talking about.

  19. March 7, 2014, 7:09 am

    They say BB is a Nazi and a “shiksa-shiksa” – that must be what the equivalent of what the French call a “putain de putain”. It is comforting to hear 800,000 Israelis being so critical of BB. Another headache to take his mind of the peace process.

  20. American
    American
    March 7, 2014, 10:04 am

    This story isnt really funny but I had to laugh so hard my eyes watered. Nazis! Nazis! Nazis! and monkeys! and dogs! and people who’s only activity in life is reading the Torah vr the other members of the tribe in the “Only” Jewish State as they like to say—-its all just so crazy–and to think that 70% of our government’s time is taken up with this country is even crazier.
    I hope we don’t have to wait for the 22th century for all this world insanity to pass.

  21. kalithea
    kalithea
    March 7, 2014, 10:09 am

    While I don’t see 300,000 Orthodox Jews coming out in protest against the persecution of Palestinians and the theft of their land or shedding a tear in that regard, and I recognize this protest as purely centred once again only on the needs of Jews; it warms the cockles of my heart to see that these 300,000 strong actually get it — they actually get the reason for being of Zionism and are defining it as such. Sweet. It’s nice to see Zionists exposed by members of their own tribe.

  22. NickJOCW
    NickJOCW
    March 7, 2014, 12:00 pm

    This glimpse into the interstices of Judaic and Islamic convictions has been fascinating. It somewhat confirms, or at least does not refute, my notion that it is monotheism rather than religion itself that disturbs human relations. I have long suspected that, far from having difficulty leaving Egypt, the Hebrews were expelled because their monotheism had become intolerable to the all powerful Egyptian priesthood, just as centuries later it became for Nero’s Rome. Others may fill in the gaps. The problem with monotheism is that it lacks the safety valves of more liberal religions which allow the excesses of human conflict to be seen as reflections of tensions between the Gods, The Iliad is perhaps the best known example. But it goes further, the late 19th century historian Theodor Mommsen, who was among the first to approach historical study scientifically, wrote in his History of Rome.

    At the very core of the Latin religion there lay that profound moral impulse which leads men to bring earthly guilt and earthly punishment into relation with the world of the gods, and to view the former as a crime against the gods, and the latter as its expiation.

    The same, of course, was true of the Hellenic world. My feeling is that if you don’t possess that safety valve then all conflicts must head towards human blood and tears, and the problem with monotheism boils down to an absence of that level of human compromise that seems to me essential to human harmony.

  23. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    March 7, 2014, 2:57 pm

    “Only 20,000 of some 800,000 ultra-Orthodox do not recognize the state of Israel as legitimate and do not receive government benefits, according to Tamar Aviyah a secular-leftist Israeli and one of the Tel Aviv protest organizers.”

    So 780,ooo are on a free ride?

    ““If you are coming from a religious point of view, in the Torah it says that God gave this land to the Jewish people,” he said. The Palestinians, he mused, should be segregated into “cantons,” even those who are Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel.”

    A group of Jews write their own land deed based on talking to a mythological character and claim that land belongs to them forever. Such a bunch of hooey

  24. Woody Tanaka
    Woody Tanaka
    March 7, 2014, 3:24 pm

    “The Palestinians, [Kelley] mused, should be segregated into ‘cantons,’ even those who are Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel.”

    Oh, come on, stop beating around the bush and call them “concentration camps” and then you can get started on what your “final solution” is going be…

  25. just
    just
    March 8, 2014, 6:40 am

    “Iran on Thursday rejected Israeli allegations that Tehran supplied Syria-made rockets intended for Palestinian guerrillas in the Gaza Strip, a day after the Israel Navy intercepted an Iranian arms vessel carrying medium-range missiles in the Red Sea, about some 1,500 kilometers (930 miles) from the Israeli coast. The Navy said that the shipment was headed for the Gaza Strip via Sudan.

    “This allegation is not true and in principle the message or movement of a ship carrying weapons from Iran to Gaza is not true,” Amir Abdollahian, Deputy Foreign Ministry for Arab and African Affairs said, according to official state news agency IRNA.

    “The allegation is merely based on repetitious and baseless fabrications of the Zionist media,” he added. ”

    and

    “Hamas Interior Ministry spokesperson said Wednesday that the seizure of the arms shipment by the IDF is an Israeli pretext to justify the Gaza blockade. He said Hamas knows that Gaza’s maritime zone is under Israeli surveillance and that any ship that attempts to pass through would be stopped and that Gaza resistance forces are not so naïve as to send a large arms shipment via the sea.

    The Palestinian leadership in Ramallah did not issue an official response to the takeover of the ship but Palestinian officials told Haaretz that the operation raises questions regarding the timing of the operation. “The ship has been sailing for weeks and it is seized exactly when Netanyahu is in Washington,” the official said. “The entire operation and the reports raise many questions regarding the timing and whether the event was real or fabricated.” ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.578243

  26. American
    American
    March 8, 2014, 11:46 am

    This is also hysterical.

    Israeli diplomats go on strike

    Michael Winter, USA TODAY 8:01 p.m. EST March 5, 2014
    Year-long dispute over wages and working conditions hits official visits, consular services and visas.”
    (Photo: The Embassy of Israel to the United States)

    ”Escalating their battle over wages and working conditions, Israeli diplomats have gone on strike, effectively shutting down embassies and consulates worldwide.”

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/05/israel-embassy-diplomatic-strike/6089785/

    A month ago the Israel hospital doctors went on strike to protest the increasing violent attacks within hospitals on doctors and staff from patients and families of patients.

  27. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    March 9, 2014, 12:10 pm
  28. Palikari
    Palikari
    March 9, 2014, 12:56 pm

    I think it is disgusting to trivialize nazism calling other people “Nazi”. The Haredim must contribute. They must choose between military service or national service.

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