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I’m waiting for Roger Cohen to say that Zionism is ‘often’ racism

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Graffiti on Fountain in Princess Diana's Rose Garden in Hyde Park, London. Photo taken Aug. 3, 2014 by anonymous contributor

Graffiti on Boy and Dolphin Fountain in Rose Garden in Hyde Park, London. Photo taken Aug. 3, 2014 by anonymous contributor

Roger Cohen asserts that anti-Zionism in Europe is “often” anti-semitism.

Fury over Palestinian civilian casualties has risen to a fever pitch in Europe, moving beyond anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism (often a flimsy distinction).

Now maybe that’s true; certainly some anti-Zionism crosses over into anti-Semitism (see the picture above, from an anonymous friend of the site, just yesterday in London).

At least he said “often” and not always. I’m waiting for the day when Cohen says that Zionism is “often” racism. He doesn’t have to say it is inherently racist. It’s not racist to wish that there was some way to have a Jewish state without hurting the rights of others. That’s not how it worked out.

Or he could say that most if not all of the support for Israel’s actions is racist–that the moral blindness in much of America’s Jewish community is racist. He does allude to the blindness, but he won’t take the next step and treat the racists in the Jewish community the way he tars opposition to Israel’s actions in Europe.

Donald
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112 Responses

  1. CloakAndDagger
    CloakAndDagger on August 4, 2014, 9:52 am

    @ Donald

    Now that even MJ Rosenberg, the unrepentant hunter of anti semitic posters on MW, has finally had the blinds lifted from his eyes, and sees Israel as the vile nation that it is, it is not improbable that Roger Cohen and others will have the same epiphany someday.

    • Pixel
      Pixel on August 4, 2014, 10:37 am

      .
      MJ is seriously on fire these days.

      It’s awe inspiring.

      He, like many others, have been/are wearing their glasses backward.

      When the day comes that they turn them around, everything instantly becomes crystal clear.

  2. scott9854958
    scott9854958 on August 4, 2014, 9:54 am

    Another Zionist looking to control language & stamp out free speech. Next…

  3. eGuard
    eGuard on August 4, 2014, 10:09 am

    Donald: At least he said “often” and not always. No he does not say that. He writes the “distinction” is often flimsy. The “moving beyond … into” for him is unrestricted.

    (This is the simple rule: if anti-Semitism is not proven at the moment & place of writing, it is a lie).

    • eGuard
      eGuard on August 4, 2014, 3:52 pm

      To be more clear: it’s not as Donald Johnson seems to read. Roger Cohen does not write that the tripover from anti-Israel into anti-Semitism happens “often” in Europe. The Cohen quote to me reads: “Fury … has risen to …, moving beyond anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism”. Cohen mentions no treshold in this: all fury is anti-Semitic (while leaving out rational criticism btw). All that is definite, in Europe.

      The “often flimsy distinction” Cohen notes is only about the border between those two: a sidenote (and bracketed).

  4. Justpassingby
    Justpassingby on August 4, 2014, 10:18 am

    Actually we dont know who wrote that.

    Take this case: Jewish Student Admits Putting Swastikas On Her Own Door

    • Kay24
      Kay24 on August 4, 2014, 10:48 am

      They suffer from a lot of unpleasant maladies – false flagging to either show victimization and blaming of others, seems to plague them. Even their leaders have been know to be mentally prone to these episodes. They are a sick lot.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 4, 2014, 12:44 pm

      “Take this case: Jewish Student Admits Putting Swastikas On Her Own Door”

      No, lady, that is not what goes on “the doorposts of your house”. These kids today got no Scripture Knowledge.

  5. Bandolero
    Bandolero on August 4, 2014, 10:22 am

    Donald

    Thank you for your article.

    But one major point: What Roger Cohen asserts is not true, at least not here in Germany. His big lie is in the word “moving” as in “moving beyond anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism.”

    There were detailed studies here in Germany and they revealed the opposite is the truth. The findings were very clear: there is still quite a large group of people in Germany which have generally racist worldviews. Politically they are to be found on the extreme far right spectrum following ideologies like Neo-Nazism.

    This group of people that has generally racist worldviews is usually as much Anti-Muslim as it is Anti-Semitic. As Turks and people of Turkish origian are the largest Muslim group in Germany the Anti-Muslim ressentiment often comes as Anti-Turkish ressentiment packed as anti-immigration demand like “Turks Out!” The Anti-Semitic ressentiment in it’s sharp form is not often heared in public, last not least because, in difference to anti-Muslim ressentiments, law enforcement is quite strict in Anti-Semitic matters, and German mass media, who have no problem of stirring up Anti-Muslim ressentiments, don’t do that against Jews.

    Therefore, what really happens is that Anti-Semitic ressentiments are sometimes disguised as Anti-Zionism – especially by the far right. That is what we can see quite often. This racists come then to Anti-Zionist or Pro-Palestinian demonstrations, masking their racist Anti-Semitic ressentiments as Anti-Zionism. People organizing demonstrations against Zionist racism have a hard time of pushing such racist anti-semitic rightwing extremists away. As they usually come playing “concerned citizens from the middle” – it’s not alway easy to notice who they are. So Anti-Semitics moving into Anti-Zionism is quite common.

    But what I very, very rarely, almost never, have seen, is that anti-Zionists move into anti-Semitism as asserted by Roger Cohen. All Anti-Zionists I know here are Anti-Zionists because they hate racism, and they see Zionism as racism. Roger Cohen tries to give the false impression that Anti-Zionist views are a kind of a light form of racism, from which people then move to Anti-Semitic views, like Anti-Zionism would be a kind of “gateway drug” for Anti-Semitism.

    But that’s absolutely not true. That’s the big lie Roger Cohen tries to spread. It’s other way around, some anti-semitic and otherwise racist people moved to mask themselves sometimes, maybe even often, as Anti-Zionist.

    • Donald
      Donald on August 4, 2014, 10:37 am

      Thanks bandolero. That comment of yours is worth a post itself, which sometimes happens around here.

      • Donald
        Donald on August 4, 2014, 10:43 am

        Though that said, I also wouldn’t be surprised if some people do go from anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism. Some people just aren’t very logical, or they’re ignorant of basic facts or they pay no attention to what you’d assume everyone should know. Man on the street interviews in the US are famous for finding a lot of Americans with bizarre mixed up views on all sorts of subjects, so I would not be surprised to see it happen on this one with either Americans or Europeans.

      • on August 4, 2014, 11:37 am

        Another reason for Jewish people to oppose Zionism.

        When and if the backlash comes, it will not be rational people helping to put an end to racist Zionism; it will be right wingers attacking all Jews.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 4, 2014, 1:56 pm

        “When and if the backlash comes, it will not be rational people helping to put an end to racist Zionism; it will be right wingers attacking all Jews.”

        I’m so screwed! Me being a typical Jew, I’ll be first on their list. A disguise, I need a disguise. Besides, I like dressing up in women’s clothing.

      • sligoker
        sligoker on August 4, 2014, 4:46 pm

        Thanks for the warning!

      • CloakAndDagger
        CloakAndDagger on August 4, 2014, 11:39 am

        @ Donald

        I also wouldn’t be surprised if some people do go from anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism

        I wouldn’t be surprised either, given how the lobby frequently conflates Israel with Judaism.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 4, 2014, 1:36 pm

        “I wouldn’t be surprised either, given how the lobby frequently conflates Israel with Judaism.”

        And until there is at least the beginning of a non-Zionist Judaism, I guess they can do that, and nobody can say shit. After all, the most Jews who feel differently can do is beg for a conversation from those same people
        But as I said, it was worth doing over ham. But maybe not this.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 11:39 am

        Donald,

        If the Jewish establishment defines Judaism and Jewishness as Zionism, and insists that the Israeli government is the official representative of “the Jewish people,” and declares criticism of or opposition to Zionism and the Israeli government to be antisemitism, wouldn’t it be logical for much of the world to embrace antisemitism explicitly and without apologies?

        Isn’t that where these trends are heading? In other words, antisemitism could flip into the default virtuous position on these issues. Stranger things have happened throughout history.

        Roger Cohen should be thinking about these matters.

        If opposing repeated massacres of innocent civilians, women and children by the Israeli government and “the Jewish people” is “antisemitic,” then antisemitism sounds like a good thing.

      • philweiss
        philweiss on August 4, 2014, 11:48 am

        The same argument can be made to excuse those who blame Islam for Osama bin Laden. We’re supposed to be more thoughtful.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 12:11 pm

        Philip Weiss,

        The same argument can be made to excuse those who blame Islam for Osama bin Laden. We’re supposed to be more thoughtful.

        N0 — that is not logical — and I think I am being thoughtful.

        The Islamic establishment has repudiated Osama bin Laden. The Jewish establishment has embraced the Israeli government, Likud Zionism and the current massacres in Gaza. Israelis in particular support this violence by an overwhelming majority — and are clamoring for even more violence.

        The Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations has repeatedly claimed that the Israeli government is the official representative of “the Jewish people.”

        Michael Lerner is rightly alarmed about these development — see his new article at Salon.com — “Israel has broken my heart: I’m a rabbi in mourning for a Judaism being murdered by Israel”:

        http://www.salon.com/2014/08/04/israel_has_broken_my_heart_i%E2%80%99m_a_rabbi_in_mourning_for_a_judaism_being_murdered_by_israel

        And this is precisely where the American Jewish community and Jews around the world have taken a turn that is disastrous, by turning the Israeli nation state into “the Jewish state” and making Israel into an idol to be worshiped rather than a political entity like any other political entity, with strengths and deep flaws. Despairing of spiritual salvation after God failed to show up and save us from the Holocaust, increasing numbers of Jews have abandoned the religion of compassion and identification with the most oppressed that was championed by our biblical prophets, and instead come to worship power and to rejoice in Israel’s ability to become the most militarily powerful state in the Middle East. If a Jew today goes into any synagogue in the U.S. or around the world and says, “I don’t believe in God or Torah and I don’t follow the commandments,” most will still welcome you in and urge you to become involved. But say, “I don’t support the State of Israel,” and you are likely to be labeled a “self-hating Jew” or anti-Semite, scorned and dismissed. As Aaron said of the Golden Calf in the Desert, “These are your Gods, O Israel.”

        The worship of the state makes it necessary for Jews to turn Judaism into an auxiliary of ultra-nationalist blindness. Every act of the State of Israel against the Palestinian people is seen as sanctioned by God. Each Sabbath Jews in synagogues around the world are offered prayers for the well-being of the State of Israel but not for our Arab cousins. The very suggestion that we should be praying for the Palestinian people’s welfare is seen as heresy and proof of being “self-hating Jews.”

        Phil — check out the comments at Salon.com on this article — there is a great deal of support for Lerner’s point of view.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 4, 2014, 1:12 pm

        “If the Jewish establishment defines Judaism and Jewishness as Zionism, and insists that the Israeli government is the official representative of “the Jewish people,” and declares criticism of or opposition to Zionism and the Israeli government to be antisemitism, wouldn’t it be logical for much of the world to embrace antisemitism explicitly and without apologies?”

        Really Sean, if you are asking permission, you’ve come to the wrong place. That hasn’t occurred to you? No, I guess not.
        Anyway, what I can’t figure out is why you think you need anybody’s permission?
        You should just go and be your bad self.

        (Now, that’s entitlement, baby! ‘I’m thinking of becoming anti-Semitic, but I need permission? Please say it’s all right?’ Wow, we got it made!)

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 4, 2014, 1:30 pm

        ” — and I think I am being thoughtful.”

        That, as many have noted, is why you’re so funny.

      • G. Seauton
        G. Seauton on August 5, 2014, 12:33 am

        If the Jewish establishment defines Judaism and Jewishness as Zionism, and insists that the Israeli government is the official representative of “the Jewish people,” and declares criticism of or opposition to Zionism and the Israeli government to be antisemitism, wouldn’t it be logical for much of the world to embrace antisemitism explicitly and without apologies?

        Sean is not 100% off base here. This is a critical moment in time with respect to the concept of anti-Semitism. Consider for a moment the number of pro-Israel supporters who seek to shut down any criticism of Israel’s attack on Gaza by shrieking “anti-Semitism!” in response. (Roger Cohen’s article is one example, though his is a meeker shriek.) The problem becomes the perception of anti-Semitism among people less knowledgeable about history in general and less aware of Israel’s disenfranchisement and oppression of the Palestinians BUT who nonetheless have seen enough footage of the carnage in Gaza on the nightly news — because more is shown this time. Some of these people are likely to come to one or more of the following conclusions:

        – So this is what they mean by “anti-Semitism”: Jews are covering up their dirty deeds. Maybe this is what anti-Semitism has always been about.
        – So when they talk about “anti-Semitism,” this is the kind of thing they are defending.
        – The Jews want people to believe they are the victims, but look at the horrors Israel is perpetrating. Maybe Jewish victimhood has always been a lie. Maybe they have never really been victims.

        Doubts about the Holocaust are not far behind — and there are so many Holocaust deniers willing to help these doubts along.

        Of course, these are not valid points of view, but people who are less informed — the vast majority of Americans, at the very least — could easily make such inferences. This is one of the risks of abusing the terms “anti-Semitism” and “anti-Semite.” We all realize here, I think, that the abuse of these terms diminishes their meaning; it can also lead some people to draw incorrect and dangerous conclusions such as the ones above.

        Who gains from such developments?

      • annie
        annie on August 5, 2014, 2:55 pm

        sean, when you say If the Jewish establishment defines Judaism and Jewishness as Zionism…..wouldn’t it be logical for much of the world to embrace antisemitism explicitly and without apologies?

        can we assume when you say “much of the world to embrace antisemitism ” you’re not speaking for yourself? because when phil says, “we’re supposed to be more thoughtful” wouldn’t you categorize yourself as one of the thoughtful ones? one of the ones who would not embrace anti semitism?

        and if that’s the case why? because you’ve argued time and again the ‘jewish establishment’, with the exception of some fringe element, is the same as the jewish community as a whole. so why wouldn’t you categorize yourself as one who would “embrace antisemitism explicitly and without apologies” if you think it’s the logical path?

        and i say that as someone who does not think it is logical in the least.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 3:38 pm

        Annie,

        I have stated many times that I don’t think that the Jewish establishment represents “the Jews,” “the Jewish people” and “the Jewish community” — despite its strident claims to do so. Many Jews disagree with the views of the Jewish establishment.

        You keep misrepresenting my views on this subject for reasons that are baffling. You should try engaging with the actual content of my comments now and then.

        Nor am I likely ever to agree with most of the world on most issues — I am usually in the minority. When I said “the logical path” I was referring to mass opinion around the world — to minds that know little or nothing about subtle discriminations concerning Mideast, Israeli and Jewish politics. Their minds have been pounded relentlessly with the message from the Israel lobby that Israel = “the Jews” — many of them now believe that.

        Much of the Jewish and Israeli media are now convinced that the world is veering towards antisemitism — you can read it for yourself in the pages of the Jerusalem Post, the Times of Israel, Israel National News and other publications. See Tova Ross’s article in Salon.com today.

        Here is how the Jerusalem Post is viewing this issue as of yesterday (August 4):

        Thane Rosenbaum: The anti-Semitism sweeping Europe
        http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-anti-Semitism-sweeping-Europe-370058

        My thinking is perfectly logical — and fact-based.

      • annie
        annie on August 6, 2014, 11:09 am

        Much of the Jewish and Israeli media are now convinced that the world is veering towards antisemitism

        yes, so the zionist media keeps telling us.frankly, i don’t think it’s as much of a problem as this..which may have a lot to do with it. here’s a graph that might interest you:

        and in case it doesn’t show up you can see it here: https://twitter.com/Staircase2/status/495716410249973760

      • annie
        annie on August 6, 2014, 12:07 pm

        I have stated many times that I don’t think that the Jewish establishment represents “the Jews,” “the Jewish people” and “the Jewish community” — despite its strident claims to do so. Many Jews disagree with the views of the Jewish establishment.

        You keep misrepresenting my views on this subject for reasons that are baffling.

        yes, i know you’ve stated that many times. however, perhaps you are not aware that when you build your arguments, your ‘logic’ sounds otherwise. for example: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/waiting-zionism-racism.html/comment-page-1#comment-698229

        Mooser has tried to make the argument that American Jews are victims of Zionists. Wrong. Overwhelmingly they represent the Zionist establishment by free choice and with passionate conviction. Perhaps one might argue that they have victimized themselves.

        now, do you see how one might read that and interpret it as American Jews “overwhelming representing the establishment?” so either you don’t think that the Jewish establishment represents “the Jewish community” or you do, but you can’t have both views when it suits you.

        but at a minimum sean, please take some responsibility if you feel your views are being misrepresented. i think it’s a common phenomena for many people to not see the flaws in their own arguments whereas finding them in others seems so easy. perhaps this is at the core of your ‘bafflement’.

        Leaders of the Jewish and Zionist establishments are one and the same people — they are not manipulating themselves

        yeah, that’s kind of a nobrainer. as as far as i know, no one is arguing otherwise. however by this same token, being consistent, if American jews “overwhelmingly they represent the Zionist establishment” makes them, also, “one and the same people”.

        and if there’s one thing i have learned being around here for a few years, it’s that there are a lot of jewish voices saying they never even heard palestinians til they got to college, and stuff like that. someone even did a study we published a review of on what was told to kids growing up about israel. so lots of them went thru the first 18 years of their life being told only a hasbara zionist notion of israel’s history. to me, this indicates a manipulation on a massive scale. not just some fringe element.

        anyway, as i said before, we just disagree. and thanks for asking about my tooth! i am in severe pain, have been told it has to be pulled, and i am in complete denial (left the dentist’s chair!). just suffering away while holding onto my tooth til it becomes unbearable. oh well. this too shall pass.

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero on August 4, 2014, 12:01 pm

        Donald

        Of course, there are some confused individuals in all spectres of society. And, with doing outragous things like the current carnage in Gaza in the name of the “Jewish state”, the “State of the Jewish people” or even in the name of”the Jewish people” Zionists contribute in my opinion Zionists contribute a lot of people confusing crimes of Zionists with judaism, thereby contributing to Anti-Semitism. The big news is that it seems not to work anymore like before.

        Besides personal experience in one’s personal social bubble, there are sciences like sociology which help to identify larger trends. What I referred to in my comment is a detailed sociological study showing that there exists a group of people holding generally racist views, and usually they hold both anti-Semitic and anti-muslim ressentiments at the same time, while Anti-Zionists are usually to be found in the opposite camp. And, surprise, surprise, Zionists are often in the opposite goup as anti-Zionists, the group of people holding racist ressentiments. That’s facts.

        For those able to read German (or willing to use Google translator), here is a comment from Rolf Verleger (former director of Germany’s top body of organized judaism, he was kicked out of that chair due to his criticism of Israel a while ago) on that study (Kempf: Israelkritik, Umgang mit der deutschen Geschichte und Ausdifferenzierung des modernen Antisemitismus):

        http://palaestina-portal.eu/Fakten_zum_Israelkonflikt.pdf

        I guess in the USA the situation maybe similar. When I read detailed polls on support of US people for Israel, it regularly shows the following picture. The staunchest supporters of Israel’s actions are usually “white old conservative Republicans” while the most opposition to Israel’s actions is to be found in the group of “Hispanic/black young liberal Democrats.” In which of those two groups one would you expect to find more “racist ressentiments” in general? I would expect that to be in the former. And I would expect that, when a sociological study is done about it, it would reveal exactly that – as it was revealed in Germany.

        I guess Zionist journalists and media know that all too well, at least in Germany there was a lengthy discussion about it, but Zionist media nevertheless do not tire in trying to give the false impression that Anti-Zionists are in the group of racists, in the more racist group or a group of latent racism. It’s a plain bold Zionist lie.

      • Donald
        Donald on August 4, 2014, 2:03 pm

        “Besides personal experience in one’s personal social bubble, there are sciences like sociology which help to identify larger trends”

        I’m not arguing, just making an observation about things we in America at least have all seen, both on TV and in our personal lives. People in everyday life often have very confused attitudes about political issues and they don’t always make clear distinctions. Speaking of general trends, I’m positive you’re right. When speaking about individuals, almost any damn thing is possible.

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero on August 4, 2014, 2:40 pm

        Donald

        Please take my apologies. I didn’t want to appear personal against you, quite the opposite, your article makes a good point.

        My point was only to shoot down Cohen’s implicit argument – that is wide-spread in Zionist propaganda and often unchallenged – that Anti-Zionism is some kind of “beginner’s drug” for anti-semitic racism, and that the anti-Zionism is kind of in a more racist camp than Zionism – while exactly the opposite is true.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 4, 2014, 12:53 pm

        “Though that said, I also wouldn’t be surprised if some people do go from anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism. Some people just aren’t very logical, or they’re ignorant of basic facts or they pay no attention to what you’d assume everyone should know. Man on the street interviews in the US are famous for finding a lot of Americans with bizarre mixed up views on all sorts of subjects, so I would not be surprised to see it happen on this one with either Americans or Europeans.”

        That seems a sensible view on it.

      • Donald
        Donald on August 4, 2014, 2:03 pm

        Thanks.

  6. eGuard
    eGuard on August 4, 2014, 10:44 am

    About the picture. I easily understand that the text is anti-Semitic and is in London. Now can someone explain what the connection is with anti-Israel criticism?

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 4, 2014, 1:02 pm

      “I easily understand that the text is anti-Semitic”

      Not necessarily. It might have been an intoxicated Porsche or VW fan, celebrating The Fuhrer’s sponsorship of The Peoples Car, and of course, the P-Wagen.

      • eGuard
        eGuard on August 4, 2014, 2:22 pm

        I see. Or a commuter who knew that back then he made trains run in time (do not underestimate the difference with today’ s English railway efficiency). That makes this grafitti into free speech, right next to Speakers Corner.

        Question still open: what is the connection with the topic of Israel-criticism? IS it in the “Boy and dolphin”?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 4, 2014, 9:08 pm

        “That makes this grafitti into free speech

        It’s vandalism, and it’ll cost the city time and money to get it removed.

    • PeaceThroughJustice
      PeaceThroughJustice on August 5, 2014, 5:00 pm

      “I easily understand that the text is anti-Semitic”

      Not necessarily. It wouldn’t be “antisemitic” if it was written by some teenage kid who only knew its meaning as something he was not supposed to say and was out to shock. It wouldn’t be “antisemitic” if it was written by some Jew for whom it satisfied some neurotic need, or felt it might provide some political advantage.

      Why does our conversation always become so childish and naive whenever the J word comes up? Words can’t be “antisemitic”, only motivations.

  7. American
    American on August 4, 2014, 10:56 am

    ”Displacement is the redirection of an impulse (usually aggression) onto a substitute target.”

    Is my theory for what is going on in much of this.
    I think this is certainly true for Israel and zionism in their murderous out of proportion attacks on Palestines —taking out their hatred and revenge against the world, who they blame for all their travails, on the Palestines who have little to fight back with since they dont have the power to actually take on the anti semitic world as they see it.
    Also true for the attacks on Jews I believe even for the people who arent natural anti semites —being powerless to take on or reach Israel itself or their own governments that support Israel they turn their ire and frustrations on individual Jews and/or the jewish community.

    • American
      American on August 4, 2014, 11:06 am

      BTW….this is why I keep saying and saying and saying to protestors….Go after the Politicians…..target them specifically.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 4, 2014, 12:57 pm

      “Also true for the attacks on Jews I believe even for the people who arent natural anti semites —being powerless to take on or reach Israel itself or their own governments that support Israel they turn their ire and frustrations on individual Jews and/or the jewish community”

      Or even a parking garage.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 4, 2014, 1:27 pm

      “I believe even for the people who arent natural anti semites”

      American, you are scaring me to death! All my life, I’ve been obsequious, with an ‘eeping ‘elping of Uriah Heep-like humility to try and avoid provoking anti-Semitism.
      But now you indicate there are “natural” anti-Semites? I don’t know whether to say “Heaven forfend” or Oy Gevalt. Which one pisses them off less?

      • American
        American on August 4, 2014, 2:37 pm

        Real, ‘natural’, those so inclined …whatever you want to call it.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 4, 2014, 7:04 pm

        “Real, ‘natural’, those so inclined …whatever you want to call it.”

        Maybe “organic anti-Semites”?

  8. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 12:34 pm

    I would disagree with Michael Lerner’s image of “Judaism being murdered by Israel.” Jewish religious leaders throughout the world have embraced Zionism aggressively and passionately — no one twisted their arm. And they continue to try to justify Zionism and Israeli policies within the ideological framework of Judaism. They are not passive victims here — they are active participants and community leaders.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 4, 2014, 1:22 pm

      “I would disagree with Michael Lerner’s image of “Judaism being murdered by Israel.” Jewish religious leaders throughout the world have embraced Zionism aggressively and passionately — no one twisted their arm”

      Well, just for the record, uh, no, a lot of Jewish arms were twisted by Zionists, actually. I think they did worse than twist Jewish arms, when they thought it necessary. But we’ll let it pass. No point even discussing it.
      A thumbtack, placed point up on the chair by the computer, I gotta remember.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 1:40 pm

        Mooser,

        Well, just for the record, uh, no, a lot of Jewish arms were twisted by Zionists….

        These Zionists were themselves JEWS — often leaders of the Jewish community.

        This model of the world in which Zionists are supposedly manipulating, tricking and abusing Jews strikes me as absurd and morally evasive (even craven). Zionism is a Jewish movement that has been embraced by the Jewish establishment and a majority of the world’s Jews. They own Zionism — they are not passive victims of it.

        You may be anti-Zionist but most of your fellow Jews are not.

        Quite a few Germans protested Nazism in the 1930s and early 1940s — but they lost the argument within Germany. We don’t judge Germany during that era on the basis of the beliefs and actions of the dissenters from Nazism. (And in fact quite a few Jewish organizatioins have held the German people collectively responsible for the deeds of that era.)

      • sligoker
        sligoker on August 4, 2014, 4:54 pm

        Precisely. Hear oh ISRAEL the Lord is our God the Lord is One. “Next Year in Jerusalem” Israel, and a return to Israel has been an essential part of Judaism throughout the ages. Therefore, it plays a very powerful role both consciously and subconsciously in the minds of Jews throughout the world. That’s why polls continually show overwhelming support of the Jewish state throughout the diaspora.

      • annie
        annie on August 5, 2014, 9:24 am

        Precisely. Hear oh ISRAEL the Lord is our God the Lord is One. “Next Year in Jerusalem” Israel, and a return to Israel has been an essential part of Judaism throughout the ages.

        sligoker, i don’t think everyone worshiping judaism throughout the ages has interpreted the meaning the way you do (albeit it is clearly in vogue today, probably by design).

        you goliath

        israel the golden calf
        the false g-d

        we worship
        we war/ship

        this is what happens
        when you build a state
        when you erect borders
        when you define yourself
        in opposition to another.
        when you other

        israel I do not want a seat at your table.
        i will eat with the goyium you so despise
        or i will eat alone

        i do not want aliyah.
        the audacity of ascending
        to a higher place
        a place where there is life
        already and love
        and generations
        we now murder.

        your city of peace
        is a city of death.

        i renounce my citizenship.

        we are a Diaspora people
        meant to wander, to make
        all the world a home
        for us and for all
        to call everywhere
        Jerusalem
        not one plot of land
        it’s a metaphor!
        you literalists!
        you racists!
        you european / american genocidal mimics!
        you maniacs!

        http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/israel-golden-calf.html

      • eljay
        eljay on August 5, 2014, 10:05 am

        >> sligoker: … “Next Year in Jerusalem” Israel, and a return to Israel has been an essential part of Judaism throughout the ages. Therefore, it plays a very powerful role both consciously and subconsciously in the minds of Jews throughout the world.

        The voices in the rapists’ minds – the ones that tell them that their victims are rightfully theirs for the taking and keeping – have been an essential part of who they are throughout the ages. Therefore, they play very powerful roles both consciously and subconsciously in the minds of rapists throughout the world.

        Whether it’s rapists desiring victims or Zio-supremacist Jews desiring a supremacist “Jewish State”, desire – even really fervent desire – does not justify acts of injustice and immorality.

      • Janet Jupiter
        Janet Jupiter on August 4, 2014, 5:20 pm

        Sean,
        You are a bigot. Deal with it

      • sligoker
        sligoker on August 5, 2014, 4:07 pm

        Eljay, of course you miss the whole point of my post with your false analogy to the “rapists” mind, and you merely reveal your antisemitism. The point I was trying to make is that Zionism is part of the Jewish culture and historical legacy. It did not spring up at the turn of the 19th-20th Century and his been part of the Jewish liturgy for thousands of years.

        If you truly want to resolve the issues in question, you had better stop accepting reality. Jews, as expressed in their holy works, have always yearned for a return to Israel. Not that complex.

      • sligoker
        sligoker on August 5, 2014, 4:15 pm

        Anne then you have absolutely no knowledge of Jewish culture. Read this, you might find it enlightening: http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=647

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 4, 2014, 7:29 pm

        Yup, like I said, no point in discussing it. Sean, you also might, just on the off chance you don’t like looking ridiculous (something I’ve seen little sign of.) just might want to look into what happened in Germany from the end of WW1 until the beginning of WW2.
        Yeah, quite a few Germans protested, but luckily, the Nazis were able to get them into line with no arm-twisting.

      • annie
        annie on August 5, 2014, 10:07 am

        This model of the world in which Zionists are supposedly manipulating, tricking and abusing Jews strikes me as absurd and morally evasive (even craven). Zionism is a Jewish movement that has been embraced by the Jewish establishment and a majority of the world’s Jews. They own Zionism — they are not passive victims of it.

        sean, aside from your alleged claims regarding a “model of the world” (which i must have missed out on) given your theory (or “fact” as you call it), that (unlike others one presumes) jews were not or are not manipulated by zionists leaders, i’m curious what you think of Kevin Coval’s excellent, incredible poem “israel is the golden calf” and wondered if you somehow missed it. http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/israel-golden-calf.html

        part of the poem (my bold):

        every young person
        every young jew
        every person not named netanyahu
        not a israeli prime minister war criminal

        we have been lied to
        we have been manipulated
        we have been coerced

        your jewishness is not dependent
        upon an undying loyalty to a state
        that murders in your name.

        israel is not a religion.
        israel is the golden calf
        and G-d is
        a child in Gaza

        again, far from claiming this as a “model for the world”, but none the less it does imply he may have felt manipulated by zionist propaganda at some point to. do you think Coval is being ‘morally evasive/craven’?

        out of his rocker?

        one more thing, can you clarify where your reference to “passive” in “passive victim” came from? or was that merely a rhetorical flourish?

        because there is, or can be, a big difference between being a victim and a passive victim.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 11:15 am

        Annie,

        I think Kevin Coval is an admirable Jewish dissident and an impressive poet whose views have been decisively rejected by the worldwide Jewish establishment (including the worldwide Jewish religious establishment).

        Member organizations of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations don’t feel that they have been lied to, manipulated and coerced by Zionists — they are *themselves* proud and proactive Zionists. These Jewish organizations — which consitute the core of the Israel lobby — have completely overrun dissenters like Kevin, Phil Weiss, Mike Rosenberg, Hostage, etc. By my reckoning, they are even more powerful now than they were a decade ago — they have acquired close to monopoly control over the US Congress and the American mainstream media.

        Leaders of the Jewish and Zionist establishments are one and the same people — they are not manipulating themselves (unless you want to argue that they are engaging in a form of self-hypnosis).

        How can we succeed in changing the views of the Jewish establishment? One approach I am suggesting is urging that the leaders of that establishment start thinking about disentangling Judaism from Zionism and American values and interests from Israeli values and interests.

        (Hope your tooth problem has been resolved, by the way.)

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 11:29 am

        Sassan,

        Zionism was a secular movement. Theodor Herzl was an atheist Jew. It is completely compatible. Israel for the most part is a secular state and is certainly the most secular country in the entire Middle East.

        Most contemporary Zionists are *religious* Zionists — both Jewish and Christian — and even secular Zionists (like David Ben-Gurion) have made heavy use of biblical themes to define Zionism and its agenda.

        Most Jewish neoconservatives (who have been the most influential arm of the Israel lobby in recent years) are Jewish religious Zionists — try browsing back issues of Commentary (the lead journal of neoconservatism) for the evidence.

        All the relevant polls in recent years indicate that Zionism within Israel is veering towards ever greater religiosity.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 12:54 pm

        Annie,

        We don’t judge Germany of the 1930s and early 1940s by its minority of dissidents — we judge it by its political and cultural majority — by its official establishment. The majority controlled political events in Germany during that era.

        The bad beliefs and policies of a majority can’t be mitigated by the good but ineffectual wishes of a minority. (But obviously dissenting minorities shouldn’t be held responsible for the bad policies of majorities.)

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 5, 2014, 9:46 pm

        While I sure as hell remember the Shma (Hear Oh Israel….) And of course, “Next year in Jerusalem” was a traditional expression, there was no prayer that went “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, next year in Jerusalem” That is really stupid, there is no such thing.
        One is the basic prayer of Judaism, the other is a traditional expression. Seems also one would have been developed way before the other, too.

      • marc b.
        marc b. on August 5, 2014, 11:01 am

        We don’t judge Germany during that era on the basis of the beliefs and actions of the dissenters from Nazism. (And in fact quite a few Jewish organizatioins have held the German people collectively responsible for the deeds of that era.)

        wah? so you’re advocating that we adopt the two-dimensional, cardboard history of collective guilt when it comes to Zionism and German fascism? when I hear people blathering on, conflating Nazis with Germans, I remind them of the thousands of Germans who took up arms and lost their lives, and their millions of supporters, fighting fledgling fascists. it took a good 15 years of beatings and murder and blackmail and duplicity for the Nazis to gain control.

      • ziusudra
        ziusudra on August 5, 2014, 1:44 pm

        Greetings Mooser,
        …twisting the arms of the Clergy…..
        Misery wants company.
        You either wit’ us or gen’us!
        Both went on same as the Nazi ideology
        in Germany or in the DDR or Russia.
        The Judaic Clergy have their way of
        keeping their followers in line. They
        are also a power base. I don’t value the
        politicians or the Clergy in Israel to do
        anything benefitting its citizens.The
        same goes for my US Country & my catholic
        church.
        ziusudra

  9. Bumblebye
    Bumblebye on August 4, 2014, 1:02 pm

    Live now on bbcWorld Service “World Have Your Say” – Questions to UN/ Chris Gunness.

  10. michelle
    michelle on August 4, 2014, 1:24 pm

    .
    often in the eyes of the world
    one bad apple spoils the whole barrel
    we see the worst and use that example to label the whole group
    it’s an incorrect lie we all allow ourselves with very few exceptions
    what do you think when you hear;
    terrorists
    hillbilly/redneck/hick/backwoods
    florida/ alabama/ the south/new jersey
    gay/lesbian
    prison record
    thug
    ‘c’ student
    hobo/bum
    …. the list is neverending
    to some extent we all do this prejudging/grouping
    it’s best to be aware and take extra care
    since our own groups have bad apples too
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

  11. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 1:29 pm

    Mooser,

    The argument here is quite simple to follow:

    If Jews collectively are defined *by their own establishment* as Zionists, and Judaism as a Zionist ideology, much or most of the world will hold Jews collectively responsible for the behavior of the Israeli government.

    I didn’t say that I think this should happen or that I would adopt these views — in fact, I wouldn’t. But a scenario like this may unfold moving forward if the Israeli government, the Israel lobby and the Jewish establishment continue on their current course. The Jewish and Israeli press have been shouting for the last year or two that this scenario is *already* unfolding.

    So: you and Phil aren’t worried about this scenario? Do you think Michael Lerner is off the beam in his new Salon.com article?

    It just occurred to me: perhaps you think that the expression of dissenting views on Zionism by a few Jews like yourself will get the Israeli government, AIPAC, the Conference of Presidents and the Jewish religious establishment off the hook. It would be wrong to believe that, in my opinion. Few people are paying attention to you. Many people are paying attention to Benjamin Netanyahu.

    • Donald
      Donald on August 4, 2014, 5:10 pm

      “If Jews collectively are defined *by their own establishment* as Zionists, and Judaism as a Zionist ideology, much or most of the world will hold Jews collectively responsible for the behavior of the Israeli government.”

      Supposing that were true, what follows from it? The rest of the world held southern whites responsible for Jim Crow and they were right. What happened to Southern whites? They were forced to end Jim Crow and subjected to some ridicule and derision for being a bunch of bigots. Some change, some stay bigots and react defensively to the ridicule, but Jim Crow is gone. That’s what should happen to the Israel-worshipping crowd. And only to those who were Israel worshippers–nothing worse than derision and being forced to watch as Israeli apartheid is ended.

      So why would you expect something worse to happen to Zionists, Sean? Unless you think most people in the world are so stupid and lacking in ethics they can’t make distinctions and would be willing to do something terrible. Well, maybe some are, but why would Zionists be treated worse than southern white bigots? If you are saying they will be, then paradoxically you are reinforcing the Zionist vision of the rest of the world.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 5:15 pm

        Donald,

        I have no idea how Zionists will be treated compared to Southern white racists — I don’t recall speculating about that.

        We do know how the Confederacy was treated during and after the US Civil War — not well (to say the least). That is one possible model, I suppose. But Israel’s situation is quite unusual — it is armed with weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons, which it has threatened to use against the entire world if pushed too hard.

        One doubts that Israel is going to bend to any outside pressure — which will greatly ratchet up tension between itself and “the nations.”

      • Donald
        Donald on August 5, 2014, 11:51 am

        Sean, you said this–

        “If Jews collectively are defined *by their own establishment* as Zionists, and Judaism as a Zionist ideology, much or most of the world will hold Jews collectively responsible for the behavior of the Israeli government.”

        So what does that mean? Are you saying that Jews in general are going to be persecuted in some way because of Israel’s crimes? If they are, there’s a name for that–it’s called anti-Semitism. For the rest of my comment I’m going to restrict this to America–anti-Semitism still exists in other parts of the world at a significant level, but in another comment you specifically mentioned AIPAC, so I think you mean to include America in your dire warnings.

        The reason I brought up southern whites, and I’m thinking of my own lifetime here and not the Civil War era , is that southern whites were held collectively responsible for Jim Crow, though some were dissidents. But nobody advocated a mass persecution of white southerners. The National Guard forced some schools to integrate and the rest of the country forced them to end Jim Crow and there’s some cultural bias and ridicule directed against white southerners sometimes, but that’s about it. So why would American Jews who’ve been bigoted supporters of Israel fare any worse than white southerners?

        Israel should stop being an apartheid state and pressure should be put on them, and their supporters elsewhere should be criticized for their bigotry where appropriate and their arguments discredited, but that’s it. You seem to be obsessed with the idea that more will happen. Why? Do you think non-Jewish Americans have this anti-Semitic side waiting to come bursting out?

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 12:15 pm

        Donald,

        So what does that mean? Are you saying that Jews in general are going to be persecuted in some way because of Israel’s crimes?

        No — you mentioned the word “persecuted” — I didn’t.

        The scenario here is simple: the more that the worldwide Jewish establishment becomes associated in the public mind with Zionism and the policies of the Israeli government, the more friction it will encounter with the world if Israel’s policies become increasingly more difficult to defend. It is impossible to predict how that friction might express itself.

        There is nothing controversial about this statement: the mainstream Israeli and European media have been discussing these trends at length over the last year or two — surely you must be tracking some of these information streams. Try setting up a daily Google Alert for “antisemitism” and you will see what is going on.

        Israel should stop being an apartheid state and pressure should be put on them, and their supporters elsewhere should be criticized for their bigotry where appropriate and their arguments discredited, but that’s it.

        What if Israel defies world opinion on these issues and doubles down on its efforts to build Greater Israel? What then? What are some likely scenarios?

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 12:34 pm

        Donald,

        I just opened up the last three days of Google Alerts on “anti-Semitism” and was hit by a flood of new data on this topic.

        The social dynamic here is obvious: the more that people all around the world criticize Israeli policies, the more they are attacked by pro-Israel activists and militants as being antisemites. And the more that critics of Israeli policies are attacked as antisemites, the more angry and furious they become and the harder they push back. This is a dynamic that keeps escalating. Where it will end up, I don’t know — perhaps you have some ideas.

        You seem to be suggesting that pro-Israel activists and militants will back down under increasing pressure from every corner of the world. You may be wrong.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 1:09 pm

        Donald,

        To see the social dynamic in play I described above — the increasing breakdown of communications between pro-Israel activists and critics of Israel, browse the more than 200 comments on this article that was just posted on Salon.com:

        Tova Ross: The truth about anti-Semitism: A liberal millennial’s second thoughts: Salon.com: August 4, 2014
        http://www.salon.com/2014/08/04/the_truth_about_anti_semitism_a_liberal_millennials_second_thoughts

        I see the potential for communications breaking down completely between these two groups — there appear to be few rational points of contact. The anger keeps growing on both sides of the divide.

        The top comments that I read were almost all uniformly critical of Tova Ross — which will probably further inflame her fears about antisemitism — and cause her to dig in her heels even deeper.

      • Donald
        Donald on August 5, 2014, 4:05 pm

        Sean, I still have no idea what you’re trying to say. I read the article. Nothing new there.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 4, 2014, 7:31 pm

      “Few people are paying attention to you.”

      Not true, Sean, not true. Even my “insulting and content-free swipes” draw a response running to several paragraphs. Somebody is paying attention!

    • ziusudra
      ziusudra on August 5, 2014, 1:54 pm

      Greetings Sean McB.,
      …the world will hold Jews collectively responsible….
      yes, just like they hold all Germans regardless of
      Generations resposible for Adolf & WWII.
      They will have a lot of explaining to do.
      ziusudra
      PS My Grandchildren living in San Diego & Milano
      have two Cardinal Sins passed on to them. A Catholic
      one & Judaic one because their Grandmother is a German.

  12. Goyjim
    Goyjim on August 4, 2014, 1:46 pm

    They are not passive victims here — they are active participants and community leaders.
    Very true; there needs to be a name for the movement, of which Mondoweiss is a main (leading?) part, to portray the Jewish mainstream as victims or helpless dupes of Zionism rather than its promoters. I must confess that I’m not sure what the goal of that movement is — its supporters can’t be afraid of facing a backlash when/if the world finally begins to oppose Zionism. If it weren’t such an obvious pretense, their painting of Jewish people as so easily misled could probably actually be considered anti-Semitic or self-hating.

    • seanmcbride
      seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 3:11 pm

      The Germans were the victims of Nazism, don’t you know? Their arms were twisted. They lacked free will. German policies weren’t their fault. German Christian establishment leaders at the time were not responsible for the words that came out of their own mouths. In fact, we should feel sorry for them. (Sarcasm turned up high in response to Mooser’s comments.)

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero on August 4, 2014, 5:40 pm

        Goyjim, seanmcbride
        I can’t resist to reply to these comments, though the second is marked as sarcastic.

        Let me say this: Brainwashing is a very potent tool of power. The concept of having been brainwashed doesn’t exclude guilt or shame, but it makes more understandable what happened and why. The assumption of collective guilt of large groups of people, say a nation, a religious community or whatever, is even more problematic in my view. It leads to easy to the simple assumption of the world being divided between good and bad without any understanding how to make things better in the future.

        To make a more specific point: let’s assume for a minute the USA is hijacked by evil Zionists who do incite one bloody war after the other, and who are in power due to the support in the jewish community, so jews therefore are guilty. Even if that would be true, what about the guilt of the majority non-jewish U.S. community who doesn’t resist against this evil? What about the guilt of billions of people worldwide who don’t resist? Assigning guilt in such a collective way is not a concept to make things much better, but a concept to make fronts harder and bring more conflict.

        You bring the example Germany. Well, I think it’s not too controversional to argue that Germans had indeed been brainwashed. The Germans back then followed horrific racist concepts laid forward by guys like prominent US citizen Henry Ford, whose “Eternal Jew” was much of a blueprint of Hitler’s “Kampf.” The Germans further misidentified a partly US-sponsored “colored revolution” of the color brown, a fascist coup, back then as a “German revolution.” Many other people today make similar mistakes confusing US-sponsored colored revolutions and fascist coups for national revolutions. So, do I blame them? Yes, I do. But much more I like to convince them that they are in error so that the chances are better to stop the carnage. The guys I really blame are those who understand all this, but supporting such desastrous policies for personal gain or so anyway.

        Wer die Wahrheit nicht weiß, der ist bloß ein Dummkopf. Aber wer sie weiß und sie eine Lüge nennt, der ist ein Verbrecher.

        He who doesn’t know the truth is just stupid. But he knows it and calls it a lie is a criminal.

        Bertolt Brecht. (My translation)

      • tear-stained uzi
        tear-stained uzi on August 5, 2014, 12:58 am

        Thank you for posting this. Well said, Bandolero.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 5, 2014, 1:44 pm

        “Thank you for posting this. Well said, Bandolero.”

        I’m with you on that! If I need (and we all do) something well-said, Bandelero is among the first I’d choose to say it. His comments are tightly written, to the point, informed and at the same point, personal, clear and sensible.
        And they’re usually just the right length. Mine read like poison, and are way too short.

      • ziusudra
        ziusudra on August 5, 2014, 2:22 pm

        Re.: Bandelero,
        Again very well put.
        You have a good mind.
        My feel. is that indivuals have indivual reasons for accepting an evil at a certain moment, where they happen to be involved passively or actively.
        Collective Germans vied for Adolf as it was made known to the general populace of what France & England had in store for them in the 20s & 30s, long before Adolf came to power. The general populace also did not have privy to the machinations of the start of the process of Genocide. The dye was set.
        Hitler gave the Germans hope to escape from the suffocating yoke of reparations of WWI, of which, i say, the Germans were not the initiators.
        ziusudra
        PS Are the American citizens responsible for Viet Nam, Cuba, Iraq, Afgan.
        Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc?
        We are living through it, we see what happened.

      • Chu
        Chu on August 5, 2014, 12:56 pm

        Actually Germans have had to pay for decades to Jewish and Israel interests regarding the Nazis. Germany provides Israel with the nuclear submarines, etc.

        Do you think Israel will one day repay Palestinians and Arabs? It’s possible, but the world (esp. USA) needs to back the abused Palestinians.

  13. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 1:55 pm

    Mooser,

    (Responding to your latest insulting and content-free snipes:)

    You can’t even begin to engage in serious discussion here on any substantive topic — I doubt that you’ve read a single book on Mideast politics, Zionism or Judaism, although feel free to correct the record right now by mentioning some of those books.

    Why don’t you try address the points I made in the post you just replied to with empty snark.

    I’ll sum up the argument in one sentence: the Jewish etablishment has managed to convince much of the world that Judaism = Zionism and that Israel = the Jewish people.

    Antisemites aren’t responsible for imprinting this concept on the world — the Jewish establishment and the Israeli government are responsible.

    It is easy to foresee the kinds of negative consequences that may flow from many people holding this belief — especially if Israel and the Israel lobby keep moving towards the hard religious/racist right.

    I have stated many times that I don’t think that Zionism = “the Jews.” Do I need to remind you of this in every comment I make?

    • sligoker
      sligoker on August 4, 2014, 5:15 pm

      It’s not the Jewish establishment–its historical Judaism. Have you not read the hundreds of references to the return to Jerusalem in the Jewish liturgy? It’s part of what Judaism is. To paint it differently and make it seem as if its some dictate from the establishment is missing the point entirely.

      • Chu
        Chu on August 5, 2014, 12:58 pm

        “Next Year in Jerusalem” ~what a blunder. Herzl was no general or strategist -that’s for sure.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 4, 2014, 7:14 pm

      “(Responding to your latest insulting and content-free snipes:)”

      Yes, you are, aren’t you? When insulting and content free snipes are directed at me, I preserve an icy sang-froid, and not deigning to dignify persiflage directed at my personage with a response, cut the offender dead with one look.
      But you do what you think best.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 4, 2014, 7:17 pm

      “You can’t even begin to engage in serious discussion here on any substantive topic — I doubt that you’ve read a single book on Mideast politics, Zionism or Judaism, although feel free to correct the record right now by mentioning some of those books.”

      As a matter of fact, wise guy, I read a book on Zionist culture in the boroughs of New York and the settler movement! It was called “Last Exit to Brooklyn”

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 8:46 pm

        Mooser,

        As a matter of fact, wise guy, I read a book on Zionist culture in the boroughs of New York and the settler movement! It was called “Last Exit to Brooklyn”

        Are you talking about Hubert Selby’s Last Exit to Brooklyn (1964) — which is a fine book — or another book with a similar title that is related to Jewish/Zionist politics?

        Edward Hoffman is the author of the book “Despite All Odds: The Story of Lubavitch” which was reviewed by Allan Nadler in the New Republic in 1992 under the title “Last Exit to Brooklyn” (“The Lubavitchers’ powerful and preposterous messianism”):

        http://www.drew.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/112/Last-Exit-to-Brooklyn.pdf

        I’ve read that book myself — and quite a few articles by Allan Nadler, whom I highly recommend an an expert on some the key issues that are often discussed on Mondoweiss.

        What other books do you recommend?

      • philweiss
        philweiss on August 5, 2014, 9:31 am

        The way I read it, he’s only read one book, Sean. So he couldnt very well recommend others?

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 10:55 am

        Phil,

        The way I read it, he’s only read one book, Sean. So he couldnt very well recommend others?

        I wasn’t sure whether Mooser was being serious or joking. Most of us here have read quite a few books on Mideast and Israeli politics (dozens or hundreds).

        I am still not clear about which book Mooser was referring to in that comment — an author and date would help to know — and it would take just a few seconds to add an Amazon.com link.

        I know you take books seriously, Phil — Mondoweiss over the years has published numerous reviews of, pointers to and excerpts from important books. (This is one of the reasons I find Mondoweiss to be such a valuable resource.)

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 5, 2014, 1:57 pm

        “The way I read it, he’s only read one book, Sean. So he couldnt very well recommend others?”

        When a man has read “Last Exit to Brooklyn” and John Barth’s “GILES, Goat Boy” the only other thing he needs to read is “Candy” by Terry Southern.

        And I’ve read that, too!

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 2:08 pm

        Mooser,

        When a man has read “Last Exit to Brooklyn” and John Barth’s “GILES, Goat Boy” the only other thing he needs to read is “Candy” by Terry Southern.

        So you were referring to Hubert Selby’s “Last Exit to Brooklyn”? Guess so. (Philip Roth doesn’t make the list?)

        And I guess you are saying that you haven’t read any books on Mideast politics, Israel, Zionism or Judaism — which is, of course, your business entirely. But it explains a lot.

      • philweiss
        philweiss on August 7, 2014, 12:54 pm

        And what about a woman, Mooser?

    • ziusudra
      ziusudra on August 5, 2014, 2:39 pm

      Re.: Sean McB.,
      …Mooser says……
      I don’t feel that he is going up against you.
      We Americans couldn’t help living it up in the modern Age of de 1920s.
      We Americans couldn’t help living down in de ‘Bust’ of 1929 till 1941.
      We shouldn’t throw too much baggage on de People. We are all controlled
      & we all go along. I just can’t blame the Germans of yesteryear nor the Israelis
      or US Jews of today. Only Big Brother can Change the equasion. The Zios in power like the Nazi will disappear. It is always the Politicians who set the Polity for Conquest. Hertzl set de stage for Conquest long before . All Governments followed suit since 48.
      It doesn’t matter who you vote for in the US, Israel, the dyes are set.
      ziusudra
      PS From the ‘Eire’ spelling of your Christian name, i see you are catholic. You could tell us stories of Ireland & 800 of Oppression & Rebellion.
      Take care, Babe.

  14. mentira
    mentira on August 4, 2014, 5:57 pm

    Hello, I am a sometime reader of the material on this site, who have just logged in today for the first time, because I wanted to leave a compliment to the posters below the line. In media in general today the quality is steadily dropping, and unfortunately many mainstream news sites are very bad at managing user participation, which means that one has to trawl through millions of hateful and ignorant posts to ever hit a good one. On this (somewhat mono-topical) site, I have so far found comments to be really thought-provoking and, as mentioned by the author himself here in his feedback, sometimes even more worth of a read than the actual article material. I just wanted to highlight that there have been many interesting and intelligent contributions below the line here lately, and on this thread in particular. In fact, it was in particular Bandolero’s fine posts, esp the one at 10.22, which motivated me to sign in and say thank you. Thank you to you all however. Best of luck. And peace, to everyone.

    • annie
      annie on August 5, 2014, 9:19 am

      welcome mentira. yes, i am a big fan of the comment section myself. btw, did you know you could read all of bandolero’s comments by clicking on his user name?

      • philweiss
        philweiss on August 5, 2014, 9:32 am

        Yes I agree with Annie and Mentira, that the comments are often better than the posts, and they’re pithy and good. Though some of them make my hair stand on end

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 5, 2014, 1:59 pm

        “Though some of them make my hair stand on end”

        Like when you saw that portrait of Sigmund Freud for the first time?

  15. Mooser
    Mooser on August 4, 2014, 7:22 pm

    “I have stated many times that I don’t think that Zionism = “the Jews.” Do I need to remind you of this in every comment I make?”

    I’ll stick with the thumbtack on the chair by the computer. Hopefully, that’ll be all the reminder I need.

  16. tokyobk
    tokyobk on August 4, 2014, 7:24 pm

    Sean,

    Certainly you are right that the establishment claims to speak for the whole community. Saudi does the same thing, so does the Vatican. And it is as you say logical that some will buy into that as a result.

    The thing is, antisemitism did not need Israel to exist, even thrive the world for centuries and peak in the most horrible way. What is your response to that? “Jew go back to Palestine” was a rally cry last century.

    An anti-semite is someone for whom there has to be a Jew or rather The Jew at the bottom of the problem and Jews have been active enough after the Enlightenment that you get your pick of communism and capitalism, Socialism and banking etc…

    Among people who actively comment on I/P it is fairly easy to see (though only roughly) where an agenda might more than just against the policy of Israel or even against Zionism. People that write more about Jewish power than Palestinian rights probably have that as their primary issue. People who are actually -disappointed- by Jews speaking out as Jews (to try to counteract what you say above about the establishment — what other way is there in your model?) may have an agenda that goes beyond justice in I and P. Probably not letting the Jew get away with other of his crimes.

    Lastly, and I suspect you will agree with me. One problem with this discussion is that, though for very understandable historical reasons, calling someone a racist is akin to saying they beat their spouse and drown puppies for kicks. We all know from life experience that this is not true. There are all kinds of people who have bigoted beliefs about others and their own “kind” and narrow ideas in general who yet manage to be generally polite and have other redeeming features. Its the crazy uncle who still gets invited to thanksgiving because he is your uncle and because as long as he is not frothing he is a fairly nice person.

    As perhaps others with regard to race, religion or ethnicity, I have known and had good relationships with people who did not like Jews as a category, and while we avoided certain topics it did not interfere with other healthy and pleasurable interactions.

    I mention this because saying anti-semite! is often (frankly like saying “Zionist!”) used to shut down a conversation not to start it.

    It should be quite permissible to call someone on anti-Semitism without meaning they should be banished to Siberia or from the I/P conversation.

    PS Have you read HItler’s Willing Executioners? I wonder what you think of the thesis of that book that the average, “good” German was in fact completely culpable for not just Hitler but the Shoah.

    • seanmcbride
      seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 8:32 pm

      tokyobk,

      It should be quite permissible to call someone on anti-Semitism without meaning they should be banished to siberia or from the I/P conversation.

      I agree entirely, and one encounters a great deal of real antisemitism on the Internet, certainly. When that antisemitism becomes too strident, I banish it from my personal conversational space. But I defend the right of antisemites (and all other varieties of bigots, including Kahanists) to express themselves in their own conversational spaces. Free speech is worth defending, especially when it is most annoying.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 5, 2014, 2:42 pm

        “But I defend the right of antisemites (and all other varieties of bigots, including Kahanists) to express themselves in their own conversational spaces.”

        That, my friend, is moral and ethical bravery of a rare and high order! You defend the right of people to talk in their own space! I had no idea you were so radical! I must have misunderestimated you!
        And the amount of courage it takes (and the thoughtfulness, too) to defend bigoted speech, instead of protesting against it! Why, a guy like me can’t even imagine it! I guess the ultimate expression of bravery and liberty would be to join in the speech? To the barricades of freedom of expression!!
        Gosh, I think a stance like that could only be appropriately defended by a full use of our God-given Second Amendment Rights.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 2:49 pm

        Mooser,

        That, my friend, is moral and ethical bravery of a rare and high order! You defend the right of people to talk in their own space! I had no idea you were so radical! I must have misunderestimated you!

        I am referring to social media spaces — Internet groups and forums created by like-minded people, publication comment sections, blog comment sections, Facebook comment sections, etc.

        Mondoweiss itself filters out many submitted comments for a variety of reasons.

        But the Internet as a whole should be unmoderated, unedited and uncensored to the maximum degree possible within the law.

        Believe it or not, there are still raging debates underway about these issues all around the world.

    • seanmcbride
      seanmcbride on August 4, 2014, 8:51 pm

      tokyobk,

      PS Have you read HItler’s Willing Executioners? I wonder what you think of the thesis of that book that the average, “good” German was in fact completely culpable for not just Hitler but the Shoah.

      I’ve read much of the discussion and debate on that book and am sympathetic to the thesis.

  17. Mooser
    Mooser on August 4, 2014, 7:46 pm

    “As perhaps others with regard to race, religion or ethnicity, I have known and had good relationships with people who did not like Jews as a category, and while we avoided certain topics it did not interfere with other healthy and pleasurable interactions.”

    I really don’t see what your sex life has to do with this. But I’m sure you’ll explain it to us.

    • just
      just on August 4, 2014, 7:59 pm

      I thank you, Mooser. LOL

      (Laughter is so rare and precious these days)

    • tokyobk
      tokyobk on August 4, 2014, 8:09 pm

      Yup that too, Mooser.

      That you think this is some kind of insult is interesting to me. Never figured you for a prude, though I did frankly imagine you as someone who needs some outlets badly and your tendency here is onanism.

      Dating is a great example actually of intercourse between people who still might have some bigotry (it may even fuel their desire to date “interracially”).

      And Japan is an especially good example of my point, where people tend to have creepy ideas about race generally and yet manage to be rather thoughtful to the people in front of them.

      Of course I have dated women who had nutty ideas about “gaijin,” Jews, blacks Koreans – if you want to witness the crazy, just mention Korea here. A person with a purity test on race idea will have no friends here.

      • Philemon
        Philemon on August 4, 2014, 9:19 pm

        So according to Tokyobk everyone’s a bigot. Including his, presumably ex-, girlfriends. Nice. Not very chivalrous though. It couldn’t possibly be Tokyoks’ personality, and his ex-girlfriends trying to let him down gently.

        Frankly, I don’t care, in a non-academic sense, as to why so much of Judaism got co-opted into Zionism and Pro-Israelism. It’s interesting in its way, as is the German rejection of Weimar and subsequent acceptance of the Nazi regime. One could write a nice dissertation on the effects of propaganda and apparent prosperity on the “nationalist” psyche.

        The bottom line is that Gaza has been bombed to hell and back. They have no running water, no food, no electricity, and no hope of getting any of it back soon. Their hospitals have been bombed, they’ve lost medical staff, their ambulance fleet as been bombed, their agricultural food-producing areas have been bombed. There are nearly half a million people displaced because their homes have been destroyed.

        Many of these people are already injured in horrific ways, and they don’t have much in the way of medical options.

        Then, there’s the threat of disease outbreaks. No electricity, no sewage treatment, no water treatment, no meds, barely functioning hospitals, barely functioning transportation. severely limited food.

        Israel and its supporters did it. Oh, they had help, but they did it.

    • sligoker
      sligoker on August 4, 2014, 9:08 pm

      “As perhaps others with regard to race, religion or ethnicity, I have known and had good relationships with people who did not like Jews as a category, and while we avoided certain topics it did not interfere with other healthy and pleasurable interactions.”

      This doesn’t surprise me. You had healthy relationships with anti-Semites, which kind of explains what kind of person you are. Thanks for confirming what I suspected.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 5, 2014, 2:02 pm

        “This doesn’t surprise me. You had healthy relationships with anti-Semites, which kind of explains what kind of person you are. Thanks for confirming what I suspected.”

        Gosh, if Zionism is supported by discernment like yours, “sligoker”, we anti-Zionists haven’t got a chance. You’ll see right through us!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on August 5, 2014, 2:27 pm

        “Thanks for confirming what I suspected.”

        Hey, Sligoker, buddy, you know what they say: “Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut!”

  18. Mooser
    Mooser on August 4, 2014, 9:22 pm

    “Dating is a great example actually of intercourse between people who still might have some bigotry (it may even fuel their desire to date “interracially”).”

    Oh no, you are going to tell us what it has to do with it.

    I think maybe I’m gonna go home, my stomach doesn’t feel so good all of a sudden.

    ” I did frankly imagine you as someone who needs some outlets badly”

    Oh, you know it! But I’m taking Jazz organ lessons, and I hope to have that as an outlet. BTW, Jazz organ is big in Japan, and people like Diahatsu Kawai, Midori Ono and Atsuko Hashimoto do it very well.

  19. Tuyzentfloot
    Tuyzentfloot on August 5, 2014, 2:49 am

    BTW, Jazz organ is big in Japan, and people like Diahatsu Kawai, Midori Ono and Atsuko Hashimoto do it very well.

    I think the first of the three is definitely the best.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on August 5, 2014, 2:10 pm

      Mr. Kawai, in addition to playing wonderful Jazz organ, also provided a Jazz-funk organ music for a series of car-race video games, which is surprisingly good, too!
      I don’t see how anyone couldn’t love Midori Ono, she is wonderful, and there’s a lot of interest in the Jazz organ style in Japan, at every level. I should do as well as some of the kids I see playing on You-Tube.

      Meanwhile, high atop the World Mondowiess Center Tower No. 1 in her penthouse office, Annie is saying: “Okay, he’s brought up organ-playing, ban him!”

      • ziusudra
        ziusudra on August 5, 2014, 3:07 pm

        RE.: Mooser,
        …jazz….
        I’m told ethymologiaclly Jazz is african dialect for ‘playing the piano’:
        F…. oh, i just can’t get my catholic self to write it out.
        ziusudra
        PS indirectly, de organ is involved.

  20. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride on August 5, 2014, 4:14 pm

    Donald,

    Sean, I still have no idea what you’re trying to say. I read the article. Nothing new there.

    Tova Ross is a former liberal and and critic of Israel (or skeptic, at least) who is now moving towards the hard Zionist camp because she thinks that antisemitism is erupting all around the world under the guise of opposition to Israeli policies. If you read the comments on her article, you will see that her Salon.com readers now have their backs up and are angry that Ross has tried to tar them with the brush of antisemitism.

    One can see this social dynamic and breakdown of communications occurring all over the Internet where Israeli issues are discussed — this strikes me as being an important trend to watch. Neither side is going to back down — this conflict is going to escalate.

    I really don’t know how to make my point any clearer. Perhaps you disagree that this an issue of importance.

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