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There is no pride for Jews in the state of Israel

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Furthering his ceaseless campaign to leave no Jewish victim of the Charlie Hebdo tragedy unexploited, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently proclaimed at a birthright “mega event” that “Israel is the only place you can proudly proclaim ‘I am a Jew.’”  Clearly alluding to (if not outright hoping to exacerbate) the growing sense of insecurity that Jewish communities in France have reported over the past few years, Netanyahu has evidently assumed for himself the messianic role as the savior of world Jewry, enabling him to speak on behalf of those that would prefer no nationalist connection to the state of Israel or its professed monopoly of the Jewish patrimony.  As an American Jew, I, likely similar to most non-Israeli Jews, reacted with scorn upon hearing Netanyahu’s exhortation that Jews will always feel ashamed of their identity outside of their “natural homeland.”

Save for a handful of fundamentalist states, Jews throughout the absolute majority of countries feel no of discomfort in proclaiming their identity either at home or abroad or engaging in its associated cultural practices through established institutions such as synagogues or Jewish day schools.  On greater introspection, however, taking for granted the assertion that one can only be truly “proud to be a Jew” in the state of Israel ignores the underlying reality that Israel is actually the one place that any Jew with a social consciousness should feel more ashamed of his or her identity than any other country in the world.  After all, in no other country besides Israel is Judaism the perennial justification for a decade’s long quest to suppress and uproot the culture and presence of millions of non-Jews.  From this vantage point, the Charlie Hebdo massacre does not indicate that Jews can only find solace in the state of Israel, but rather that the land of Israel bears much of the responsibility for whatever antagonism that Jews around the world continue to face.

It goes without say that no Israeli leader or Zionist luminary possess the right to speak on behalf of world Jewry or dictate how individual Jews connect or relate to their country of origin.  Conversely, it is equally apparent that few things have done more to jeopardize both the moral essence of Judaism and the loyalty of Jews to their natal states as the politicization of their religious identity and its transformation into a pseudo-ethnic race that prohibits millions of indigenous people from leading a dignified life.  Indeed, only because of Israel can a Jew be menaced with the knowledge that his or her identity is the reason that over five million Palestinians continue to languish in refugee camps across the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan.  Only because of Israel does a Jew have to cope with the fact that over 20 percent of the country’s population is deprived of an equal chance to prosper, integrate into society, or celebrate their cultural attachment to the land because they were not privileged enough to be born to parents hailing from the “chosen people.”  And of course, only because of  Israel is the Holocaust, one of the greatest human catastrophes in history, cynically manipulated for the purpose of conjuring up fear and instilling the most racist, xenophobic sentiments into the state’s citizens.

As the birthplace of the Jewish religion and the location where its most important modern day features and symbols came into being, the land of Israel should absolutely be an area where Jews from around the world, as both visitors or permanent residents, can bask in their cultural and linguistic heritage in tandem with all other religions and peoples native to the region.  Yet as long as Israel represents a form of domination over others in the name of Judaism, no Jew should be comfortable in or proud of his or her identity.  Netanyahu’s unique blend of self-righteous chauvinism at once belies the true nature of Judaism in the Holy Land as well as creates a false impression that Jews outside the boundaries of the state of Israel must feel inferior to their Israeli counterparts and insecure among the gentiles that they have lived with for decades, if not longer.  Rather than looking for ways to promote dialogue and mutual understanding during tragic episodes such as Charlie Hebdo, Netanyahu would prefer espousing the same type of retrenchment and jingoism that produces individuals bent on purifying their society of all detractors.  The Jewish staple of tikun olam, or improving the world, may have been appropriated by the Zionist establishment and its various hasbara mouthpieces long ago, but for those Jews who were raised on the true ideal of bettering the world around us and returning to our roots, there is no pride in being Jewish in the state of Israel.

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  1. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride on January 17, 2015, 10:50 am

    Regarding the lengthy (and often heated) exchanges here about the problematic relations between Judaism and Zionism, this is the most articulate explication of the issue I have seen to date.

    Money quote: “After all, in no other country besides Israel is Judaism the perennial justification for a decade’s long quest to suppress and uproot the culture and presence of millions of non-Jews.”

    I strongly agree with this:

    “As the birthplace of the Jewish religion and the location where its most important modern day features and symbols came into being, the land of Israel should absolutely be an area where Jews from around the world, as both visitors or permanent residents, can bask in their cultural and linguistic heritage in tandem with all other religions and peoples native to the region.”

    The main problem facing the Jewish religious establishment in 2015: how to disentangle Judaism from Zionism. Once that mission is accomplished, many of Israel’s problems could be fixed and the I/P conflict could be resolved.

    On the entanglement of Judaism with Zionism:

    “Bennett: ‘The day is near that the Jewish Home party will lead Israel'” https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/16399-bennett-the-day-is-near-that-the-jewish-home-party-will-lead-israel

    Naftali Bennett: “We love the land of Israel, we love the people of Israel, we love the Torah of Israel – and we’re proud of it.”

    When will the leaders of Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism begin pushing back against these ideas forcefully and effectively? Perhaps too late to avert a catastrophe.

    As a rule, I never advise religions how to manage their affairs — that is their business. But religious Zionism now influences American politics in ways that are impossible for Americans to ignore.

    • Kathleen
      Kathleen on January 17, 2015, 12:05 pm

      Totally agree with you and Scott. All so well said and felt.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 17, 2015, 12:06 pm

      “As a rule, I never advise religions how to manage their affairs — that is their business.”

      Look, “Seanmcbride”, I understand your decision, and its ethical basis, but aren’t you being just a tad, well, hard-hearted? All the polite letters requesting advice and counsel, you won’t answer, all the little gifts get returned, and even offers of generous emoluments including ivory, apes and peacocks for just a word of advice get no response.

      And even now, at the present critical juncture, you remain silent. Well, you must do what your conscience tells you, “Seanmcbride”, but I have sneaking suspicion that you, as a decent human being, will regret this decision someday. They need you Sean, and you should try to help. If i may exercise the base temerity of indulging in a Yiddish proverb: “The hour produces the Mensch”!

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on January 17, 2015, 12:26 pm

        Mooser,

        I think we both agree that it is a mistake to mix together religion and politics — as we agree on most other issues. Most Americans get that.

        Once any religious group enters the political sphere, it becomes fair game for criticism on political grounds. If it uses its religious ideology to justify political activism and policies, its religious ideology also becomes fair game for criticism.

        What is your take on Scott Ratner’s article?

      • pabelmont
        pabelmont on January 17, 2015, 4:42 pm

        But, Mooser, SmcB should only give that advice if they pay him well for it. No-one takes free advice!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:20 pm

        “But, Mooser, SmcB should only give that advice if they pay him well for it. No-one takes free advice!”

        “pabelmont”, my friend, that’s just what I’m counting on!

        ” If it uses its religious ideology to justify political activism and policies, its religious ideology also becomes fair game for criticism.”

        That’s what we.ve been saying all along, Sean. So go for it, man, let loose, let it all hang out, and tell us what we should do. As the song says: “Do do the Voodoo that you do so well!”
        I’m sure the advice will be worth every penny.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 17, 2015, 6:12 pm

        “Once any religious group enters the political sphere, it becomes fair game for criticism on political grounds. If it uses its religious ideology to justify political activism and policies, its religious ideology also becomes fair game for criticism.”

        This is getting absurd, Sean. You’ve never heard of Bri’er Rabbit? Please, please, don’t throw me in the briar patch?

        Sean, all I can tell you, and you can believe me or not, is that there is no way a Zionist would rather be criticized or attacked than on a religious or ethnic basis.
        You don’t think maybe that’s why they advertise the connection so much, do you?

      • Philemon
        Philemon on January 17, 2015, 9:09 pm

        Mooser, don’t be too hard on Sean. I’m sure he’s heard of Uncle Remus and Br’er Rabbit. He’s a young’un, though. So, he probably never heard the good old LP version of the stories.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 18, 2015, 11:49 am

        “I think we both agree that it is a mistake to mix together religion and politics — as we agree on most other issues.” “Seanmcbride”

        And I only had to look at the best few days to find a good example of this “agree on most other issues, and here it is:

        “Mooser seems to believe that there is no such thing as the Jews (and their organizational leadership) and that this non-existent people and special interest group has had nothing to do with Zionism.

        *Real* Jews, supposedly, are like Mooser — impossible to pin down on anything — as slippery as mercury — barely there at all — certainly not accountable for any bad or questionable beliefs, policies or behavior.

        I recall Mooser’s humor as being more clever and subtle at one time than it is now — delivered with a much lighter touch — not so dependent on heavy-handed sarcasm to make its exasperated points to a never-ending stream of his supposedly intellectual and moral inferiors.” “Seanmcbride”
        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/journalists-publication-newspaper#sthash.RsdoHNYV.dpuf

        Now, that’s agreement like Mother used to make! No pride for Mooser.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on January 18, 2015, 12:05 pm

        Mooser,

        Sometimes discussions on Mondoweiss become a bit heated.

        On core values I think we agree for the most part — live and let live. Human beings (and human groups) should treat one another with fairness and decency — give one another space to breathe and go about their business.

        And some of your witticisms of late have been stellar — up to your highest standards.

      • Philemon
        Philemon on January 18, 2015, 7:53 pm

        Sean, flattery will get you nowhere.

        A gracious apology might serve you better.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen on January 19, 2015, 4:22 am

        So what does Mooser think of the article? He never responded. And what would Sean be apologizing for as Philemon suggest below?

        I know others have brought this up but why is it that one is unable to reply just below the individual’s comment?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 10:19 am

        “So what does Mooser think of the article? He never responded.”

        And make you chase after all that quicksilver? It’s poisonous, you know! I’m doing you a favor. You’d be mad as a hater before I’m half-way done!

        Besides, How about those Seahawks!!!?! Huh? How about that!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 11:14 am

        “Sometimes discussions on Mondoweiss become a bit heated.”

        Really? I wouldn’t know. Those comments were not addressed to me, you were telling somebody else about me. Anyway, I hope it cooled down after that.

      • Philemon
        Philemon on January 19, 2015, 8:21 pm

        Kathleen, as Mooser points out, Sean has, for some time – it’s very silly that it’s gone on for so long, but Sean had some weird idea that Mooser was a Jews-uber-alles guy, and that got Mooser’s back up – wait, where was I? Oh yeah, Sean’s been saying less than flattering things about him (Mooser), and, I think, generally misjudging him (Mooser, again!) so much so that I think he (Sean) might need to apologize, at least a bit because I think he (Mooser) has a fairly legitimate grievance.

        Anyway, that’s my take and I’m sorry if it was confusing.

        As far as the reply button goes, once it gets three deep, you just reply to the one at the top that you’re interested in and it shows up below.

        My understanding of it from other websites I’ve seen, is that if you don’t limit the embedding, you get very narrow, indented streams of comments and replies, maybe two or at most three words across, which are tiresome to read, or try to read, and give you carpal tunnel syndrome when you try to scroll past ’em.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on January 20, 2015, 12:02 pm

        Philemon,

        “Kathleen, as Mooser points out, Sean has, for some time – it’s very silly that it’s gone on for so long, but Sean had some weird idea that Mooser was a Jews-uber-alles guy, and that got Mooser’s back up….”

        No, that’s not it at all.

        When I first pointed out that the Jewish religious establishment was using Judaism and Torah-based themes to promote Zionism and justify Israeli policies, Mooser objected. We’ve argued the point back and forth for quite some time, and my impression is that we now better understand each other’s positions. Mooser may even agree with me in part since this assertion is clearly grounded in reality.

        By Jewish religious establishment, I have always been referring to those Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist leaders associated with the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations:

        http://www.conferenceofpresidents.org/about/members

        I have also pointed out that the influence of progressive anti-Zionists on American politics (and especially on the US Congress) is minuscule (non-existent, really) compared to that of the Jewish religious establishment. They haven’t been able to elect a single politician to the US Senate or House of Representatives — nor is there any prospect that they will do so in the foreseeable future.

        This is rather an important issue for those of us who are trying to figure out what is going to be the future of American Mideast policy in the coming years.

        American Jews who share the views of JeffB and hophmi have been much more successful in achieving their political objectives than progressive anti-Zionists like Mooser, who have occupied the farthest fringe of American politics for over a half century. I largely agree with progressive anti-Zionists (although I consider myself more a non-Zionist than an anti-Zionist) — but I have no confidence that they will be able to move the political needle on Israeli issues in the Republican and Democratic Parties. Even Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders expressed support for Operation Protective Edge.

        Mooser’s views on Judaism may differ from those of Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist leaders — but they have had little impact on real-world politics.

        Two quotes of note:

        1. “The prime minister [Benjamin Netanyahu] praised “the spirit of the Jewish community in France,” which remains “totally connected with Am Yisrael (“the nation of Israel”), Eretz Yisrael (“the land of Israel”), and Torat Yisrael (“the Torah of Israel”).”

        2. Naftali Bennett: “We love the land of Israel, we love the people of Israel, we love the Torah of Israel – and we’re proud of it.”

        Contemporary Jewish leaders have fused Judaism and Zionism into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology — that is a fact. And very few Americans are willing to challenge that belief system — they believe that by defending Zionism they are defending Judaism.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 20, 2015, 2:21 pm

        “When I first pointed out that the Jewish religious establishment was using Judaism and Torah-based themes to promote Zionism and justify Israeli policies, Mooser objected.”

        Gosh, your precis of the argument is so fair, so un-self-serving, I hardly dare ask for any, you know, cites. It would make me look churlish.

      • Philemon
        Philemon on January 21, 2015, 8:51 pm

        seanmcbride: “No, that’s not it at all.

        “When I first pointed out that the Jewish religious establishment was using Judaism and Torah-based themes to promote Zionism and justify Israeli policies, Mooser objected. We’ve argued the point back and forth for quite some time, and my impression is that we now better understand each other’s positions. Mooser may even agree with me in part since this assertion is clearly grounded in reality.”

        Sean, when Mooser objected it wasn’t for the reasons you assumed. Now, maybe you didn’t get some of the distinctions he was making, or the way he was ridiculing the interpretation of Judaism that Zionism and Israeli policies use to justify themselves, but they were there and you just missed them at the time. There is no shame in admitting that.

        A graceful apology to Mooser for misjudging him would be the act of a scholar and a gentleman. Mooser himself can’t demand it from you, however much it pains him, but lots of people with good reading comprehension who read this stuff would have a better opinion of you if you would just admit that you were in the wrong where Mooser was concerned and apologize, graciously.

      • annie
        annie on January 21, 2015, 9:06 pm

        philemon, check this out: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/israel-supporters-and-idf-officials-proudly-display-their-bigotry-on-twitter#comment-515248

        mooser was having a conversation with woody, sean interjected

        seanmcbride November 16, 2012, 2:28 pm
        Mooser:

        Zionism will destroy Judaism, much more completely, and for a longer time, than anything else ever has. Now we will see what we sold our birthright for, and oh, won’t the world think the world of our intelligence and values! It’s easy to see, Zionism is adopting a “schorched earth” policy towards Judaism. If Zionism fails, they intend to see that Judaism goes down with it. They will try and leave no patch of non-Zionist fertile ground for Judaism to grow again.

        If Zionism succeeds in destroying Judaism, where will that leave “the Jews” — the Jewish people, the Jewish establishment, the Jewish community?

        What scenarios do you envision? What scenarios is the Jewish establishment envisioning? One presumes that said establishment — organizations like the JPPI (Jewish People Policy Institute) — led by “big thinkers” like Dennis Ross — thinks about these matters in a serious way. Or doesn’t it.

        that’s sean blockquoting mooser over 2 years ago. sean like to think he discovered “Jewish religious establishment was using Judaism and Torah-based themes to promote Zionism”, when actually it’s sort of a no brainer.

      • annie
        annie on January 21, 2015, 9:24 pm

        btw, anyone can do a search of sean’s comments (“mooser” here’s the first 100 comments http://mondoweiss.net/profile/seanmcbride/1?keyword=mooser ) to follow the trajectory of his obsession conversations with mooser. the new rules policy thread from 10/2012 is instructive http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/changes-to-the-mondoweiss-comment-policy#sthash.M0r73O8w.dpuf

        this one’s funny, 2 years ago….

        seanmcbride January 3, 2013 at 2:40 pm
        Mooser,

        Sean, do you ever worry about getting, well, gosh, I hate to put it like this, but I can’t think of another word, about getting a bit tiresome?

        Is this yet another example of your analytical prowess?

        I think a full public discussion of the role of Judaism in Zionism and the role of the Jewish lobby in the Israel lobby would be enlightening, not tiresome, and might help effect a change in Israeli policies that currently, in the opinion of many people, are bad for Israelis, bad for Jews, bad for Americans and bad for the world.

        Clearly these are emotional and hot button topics for you. When you manage to get your emotions under control, perhaps we can pursue a civil and friendly discussion on them.

        lol, sound familiar?

        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/seanmcbride/1?keyword=mooser#sthash.zQF4eFnC.dpuf

      • Philemon
        Philemon on January 21, 2015, 9:49 pm

        Thanks, Annie. I might have missed that one at the time. And you’re right about Sean picking up things from Mooser, probably unaware that he was doing so.

        But some of the brightest students do that sort of thing before they have enough ballast in reading and experience to balance their agility in sail-setting analytical debate.

        It would behoove Sean to read more anyway.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 23, 2015, 11:20 am

        “*Real* Jews, supposedly, are like Mooser — impossible to pin down on anything — as slippery as mercury — barely there at all — certainly not accountable for any bad or questionable beliefs, policies or behavior.”

        I don’t need any apologies from someone who would use asterisks in that manner! I was expecting two footnotes, one explaining “real” and one explaining “Jews”.
        But nada, nothing, zip, bupkis.

        Well, if you’ll excuse me, maybe I can be of some use in a thermometer, somewhere. Not that it would give an accurate or truthful reading.

      • Philemon
        Philemon on January 23, 2015, 9:48 pm

        Mooser, of course you don’t need an apology.

        I was advising young Sean to apologize because he needs to do so if he wants any respect around here. Also, good for the soul. Shows character if you can do it right, too. Good thing for a young feller to learn.

        And would you stop coming it the martyr about the mercury already!

  2. Walid
    Walid on January 17, 2015, 11:04 am

    I have never met a Jew that was not proud to be a Jew, but I have never met an Israeli Jew.

    • seafoid
      seafoid on January 17, 2015, 11:49 am

      I have met Israeli Jews and heard hasbara live and in real time. It’s very interesting in the flesh but also depressing, the standardization and the lack of thinking.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride on January 17, 2015, 11:53 am

        As a rule, the more that militant ethnic and religious nationalists lobby for their cause, the more friction they create with ethnic and religious outsiders.

        It’s an irony that hasbarists don’t seem to be able to grasp. The harder they work, the deeper the hole they dig for themselves.

      • Mayhem
        Mayhem on January 19, 2015, 8:57 pm

        @seafoid, hasbara (actually public diplomacy) is not one-sided and monotonous like the constant drone of […] propaganda. Whereas one attempts to deal with facts and offers explanations (hasbara), the other keeps pushing the single-minded, obsessive narrative of […]. Naturally the term hasbara has to be demeaned – this is a common, cheap debating trick. It means you are trying to get away without dealing with the details of the opposition case by claiming it is based on a single, allegedly wrong premise.

      • eljay
        eljay on January 20, 2015, 2:51 pm

        >> Mayhemeee: … hasbara … is not one-sided and monotonous like the constant drone of [..] propaganda.

        That’s right: It’s a constant, one-sided and monotonous droning of Zio-supremacist propaganda.

        >> Whereas one attempts to deal with facts and offers explanations (hasbara) …

        The rapist, too, “deals with facts and offers explanations”: “She’s mine because I say she’s mine and I’ve dreamed about her all my life and my diary tells me she’s mine. Oh, and I was brutally abused as a child, so it’s my right to have her and to self-determine myself in her.”

        None of that changes the fact that there’s a woman chained in his basement and he is in violation of numerous laws.

        >> … the other keeps pushing the single-minded, obsessive narrative of [..] .

        Yeah, I get what you’re saying, Mayhem: Stupid woman, she’s so single-minded and obsessive with her narrative of captivity, sexual and physical abuse and desire for freedom, when she really should just lie back and enjoy it.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 20, 2015, 5:34 pm

        “the other keeps pushing the single-minded, obsessive narrative of Pallywags. Naturally the term hasbara has to be demeaned – this is a common, cheap debating trick.”

        Ah, that must be why you refer to them as “Pallywags”! No “common, cheap debating trick” for you, Mayhem, only the highest standards! A regular balmocha!!

  3. seafoid
    seafoid on January 17, 2015, 11:53 am

    They still have mass conscription 7 decades later. Something failed. The model is broken, even if they frankensteined Hebrew.

  4. Mooser
    Mooser on January 17, 2015, 12:12 pm

    “They still have mass conscription

    Mass conscription? Is it really mass? They draft everybody, regardless of race religion creed or genre preference?

    Well, that’s good, all that healthy teamwork between different Israelis should be healthy. Maybe there are some advantages to a fair, universal, mass conscription. I wouldn’t know.

    • johneill
      johneill on January 21, 2015, 2:24 am

      i thought they didn’t draft arab israelis, and only recently began drafting the orthodox am i mistaken?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 21, 2015, 2:12 pm

        “recently began drafting the orthodox”

        I think the “Ultra-Orthodox” or Haredim is who you are referring to, but I’m not sure.
        As far as I know the “Orthodox” are totally down with the Zionist’s program, and serve as Rabbis for the IDF.
        I don’t know how much shrift Conservatives and Reform get.
        There’s two kinds shrift, short and long.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 21, 2015, 12:19 pm

      Yes, I’m sure almost anybody could volunteer to serve in the IDF, but who gets drafted into it?

  5. seafoid
    seafoid on January 17, 2015, 12:26 pm

    Pride is not appropriate . Shame would be better

    http://www.haaretz.com/misc/iphone-article/.premium-1.603454

    “A year ago, with another wave of hate crimes in the background, I visited a high school in Jerusalem. There were students there who declared they hated all the Arabs, that they did not want to see Arabs anywhere — “Not in the street, not in the mall, not on the light rail” — alongside others who offered a more complex message. Research and surveys in the last 20 years show that the strength of the first group has grown steadily, while the second group is shrinking and going silent. Hatred has become a major component in the personal and group identity of our youth. It is present all the time, and sometimes, in some places and depending on the events, it also rears its head toward immigrants and leftists.
    Then a month ago, in honor of Jerusalem Day, dozens of students banged on doors in the Muslim Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City while crying out, “Destroy the seed of Amalek,” “The Temple will be rebuilt, the mosque burned,” “Mohammed is dead,” and “Death to Arabs.” ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601122

    “Almost every Israeli in the last 47 years has done military service in the territories. Almost all of them have had to do things that go against human decency and morality – often not for the sake of Israel’s security at large, but to protect some isolated outpost of settlers. If indeed Israel were to reach peace with the Palestinians and the Arab world, most Israelis would have to live with the painful realization that most of what Israel has done to the Palestinians was unnecessary; that Israel could have ended the occupation a long time ago; and that the energies and resources invested in the West Bank’s colonization could have been invested in Israel’s flourishing instead.
    This idea is too difficult to bear, and the regret would be unendurable. It is, therefore, psychologically imperative to create a narrative that explains why the occupation was inevitable; why Israel had no choice but to hang onto the West Bank; why all the sacrifice in human lives, moral turpitude and political isolation were necessary for Israel’s survival.
    Israel’s right-wing politicians instinctively know they need to reassert daily that the occupation is a military and moral necessity. This is why they keep explaining why a Palestinian state is an existential threat to Israel, and why Israel’s left has been selling empty illusions for decades. Of course, their case has been strengthened enormously by the second intifada and the shelling of southern Israel. But the constant fanning of fear not only serves Israel’s right politically. It also provides Israelis with a justification not only for the status quo, but for the expropriation, oppression and humiliation of Palestinians that Israelis have participated in for the last 47 years, to preserve the occupation.
    All of this is all-too-human. Only a few have the human strength of Moreh’s interviewees to look into the camera and say: “We did terrible things, and most of them could have been avoided if only the political leadership had realized that the occupation is Israel’s catastrophe.” Most Israelis, like most humans, need a narrative that justifies Israel’s actions as inevitable. ”

    or bitterness

    • Kathleen
      Kathleen on January 19, 2015, 4:24 am

      Mass racism being exposed

      • seafoid
        seafoid on January 19, 2015, 9:30 am

        And when people link this to Judaism it’s going to be very messy.

  6. Bumblebye
    Bumblebye on January 17, 2015, 12:33 pm

    Um, before RoHa comes along to grumble, may I point out that the apostrophe in “decade’s” kinda limits the time frame to one decade instead of many. More than a century’s worth.

  7. seafoid
    seafoid on January 17, 2015, 2:06 pm

    When you see Rula Jebreal talking about inclusiveness or read Bintbiba on how she sees things it’s pretty clear that going over the dark side was the only way to keep Zionism going.

    So I wonder how long more it will linger.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Kspj3OO0s

    If you, if you could get by
    Trying not to lie
    Things wouldn’t be so confused
    And I wouldn’t feel so used

    And where is the Jewish Luke Skywalker ?

  8. eljay
    eljay on January 17, 2015, 2:18 pm

    Furthering his ceaseless campaign to leave no Jewish victim of the Charlie Hebdo tragedy unexploited, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently proclaimed at a birthright “mega event” that “Israel is the only place you can proudly proclaim ‘I am a Jew.’”

    Aside from the fact that Israel ought to be the one place in the world where one can proudly proclaim “I am an Israeli”, King Bibi – as usual – was either lying or mistaken: There are plenty of places in the world where one can proclaim he is a Jew, just as there are plenty of places in the world where one can proclaim he is gay.

    For both Jews and homosexuals, there are also plenty of places where it may not be safe to make either proclamation. This does not mean that Jewish and gay people are entitled to supremacist states.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:58 pm

      “This does not mean that Jewish and gay people are entitled to supremacist states.”

      “eljay, I drafted a three-page comment in response to yours, elaborating on your points, differing slightly (slightly) on others and providing supportive material. But then I realized I wasn’t sure about the most important thing; did you mean either, or both?

      • eljay
        eljay on January 17, 2015, 7:46 pm

        >> Mooser: “eljay, I drafted a three-page comment in response to yours, elaborating on your points, differing slightly (slightly) on others and providing supportive material. But then I realized I wasn’t sure about the most important thing; did you mean either, or both?

        Pardon my lack of clarity. :-) Let me try again:

        For both Jews and homosexuals, there are also plenty of places where it may not be safe to make either proclamation. This does not entitle Jewish people and gay people (or even Jewish and gay people) to supremacist states of their own.

    • Shingo
      Shingo on January 18, 2015, 3:28 pm

      There are plenty of places in the world where one can proclaim he is a Jew, just as there are plenty of places in the world where one can proclaim he is gay.

      Very true,

      In fact, during the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, one of the floats is a Gay Jewish contingent and they are received warmly by the crowd – even in spite fo the fact they wave Israeli flags.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 2:02 pm

        “In fact, during the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, one of the floats is a Gay Jewish contingent”

        And they get to shout “I am a Jew” dressed up as Biblical characters and throw handfuls of candy to the admiring crowds, but not me. They probably worked on the float, tho, so I guess it’s fair, but still… maybe just a couple of blocks? Please…..

  9. wondering jew
    wondering jew on January 17, 2015, 3:53 pm

    I don’t live in Europe, but people tell me that Jews are warned not to wear a yarmulka in European cities because of fear of getting beaten up by Arab Muslims. Scott Ratner does not even deign to deal with this.

    • seafoid
      seafoid on January 17, 2015, 4:06 pm

      There’s a Jewish centre in Enge in Zurich that has security guards outside it on Jewish holidays. And that’s because of what the IDF gets up to in Gaza.
      And it’s very sad.
      But apparently Zionism doesn’t give a shit about Jews in Europe.
      Because Gaza needs its beatings.

    • chet
      chet on January 17, 2015, 4:21 pm

      And do you believe. yonah fredman, that this deplorable situation is exclusively due to Jew-hatred or that the vile treatment of Palestinians by Israeli Jews might be involved?

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on January 17, 2015, 4:54 pm

        yes, chet, i believe the jew hatred by middle Eastern Arab Muslims in Europe has its roots in the Palestinian Israeli conflict.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:26 pm

        ” i believe the jew hatred by middle Eastern Arab Muslims in Europe has its roots in the Palestinian Israeli conflict.”

        Which is Yonah’s (and god bless him for it) funny little way of saying that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism or “Eastern Arab Muslim” “Jew hatred”.

        Isn’t that nice.

      • Daniel Rich
        Daniel Rich on January 17, 2015, 9:34 pm

        @yonah fredman,

        Q: middle Eastern Arab Muslim

        R: Tiny, small, minute, little, wee, etc., etc. [shop of horrors].

        You’re like that night nurse, the one who woke me up in the middle of the night to say, “Daniel, you forgot to take your sleeping pill!”

      • seafoid
        seafoid on January 18, 2015, 1:17 pm

        “yonah fredman January 17, 2015, 4:54 pm yes, chet, i believe the jew hatred by middle Eastern Arab Muslims in Europe has its roots in the Palestinian Israeli conflict. – ”

        Do you think, Yonah, that a few more Palestinian dead will bring the Muslims around to admiring Israel, as the IDF strategists believe ?

    • John O
      John O on January 17, 2015, 4:44 pm

      Would you care to tell us who these people are, and what are their experiences, so that we may form an opinion as to how reliable their reports are? And which cities? How do these people know they are Arab Muslims, as opposed to British, French or Norwegian Muslims?

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen on January 19, 2015, 4:46 am

        Daniel Rich..no place to reply below your comment. Such an odd set up. Best line in whole thread “You’re like that night nurse who woke me up in the middle of the night to say “Daniel you forgot your sleeping pill!” Classic. Have witnessed this in hospitals over and over again.

    • annie
      annie on January 17, 2015, 5:02 pm

      There’s a Jewish centre in Enge in Zurich that has security guards outside it on Jewish holidays.

      seafoid, right here in marin county, a friend went to an event at the synagogue in tiburon (very expensive place, fancy rich) and they were loaded up with security at the entrance. armed guards. jewish fear is …everywhere. and if it wasn’t someone would invent it.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew on January 17, 2015, 5:14 pm

        and if it wasn’t someone would invent it.

        annie robbins- what a grasp of history you have!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:28 pm

        If a little bit of money isn’t an object, you could hire some security guards, and they can stand around like you’re expecting an attack. They get paid by the hour. The effect produced will more than pay for itself.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:48 pm

        “annie robbins- what a grasp of history you have!”

        She doesn’t remember when all the Jews in Marin were herded away and put in detention camps, and their split-levels appropriated!

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen on January 19, 2015, 4:31 am

        Soon after 9/11 then SenatorJoe Liebermann made sure that Jewish groups were given the larger part of Homeland Security funds for some of those real and “imagined” threats.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:41 pm

      “I don’t live in Europe, but people tell me that Jews”

      Yonah, stop making things up.

      • Ellen
        Ellen on January 17, 2015, 6:02 pm

        Mooser, exactly! He is making it up.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 17, 2015, 7:28 pm

        “Mooser, exactly! He is making it up.”

        Apparently, the fact that he might have to do anything else doesn’t worry him. In fact, I think it positively offends him.

    • Ellen
      Ellen on January 17, 2015, 5:55 pm

      Yonah, that is absolute nonsense, the same stuff you have repeated before. Don’t believe everything you hear, let alone repeat it as truth, especially a place you know nothing about.

      As for that large and active center on Zurich –Stadt teil, Enge: there is a large community center and beautiful Synagogue,. (I walked past it daily for many years.) There are schools for the Jewish community and a yeshiva. Often, men walking in that neighborhood, and neighboring Wolishofen, without yarmulka are the exception, and stand out. Especially on Saturday .

      On rare occasions around high holidays, for example, the Synagogue will request a security detail. Don’t know why. The request for extra security comes from the Synagogue. But there has never been an attack ever.

      Yet, years ago there was an incident were human feces was smeared in the doors of the Catholic Church on the edge of Enge, with a note it did not belong there, and some reference to reformation and founding charter of Enge. Surely some nutcase. That was all.

      Oh, I forgot, there was more recently an incident where swasticas were painted on dumpsters. But that was done by a young man from the yeshiva, wearing a Yarmika . He was already known by everyone in the neighborhood to have a few missing marbles. It was ignored just as all the other strange stuff he would write onto walls was ignored.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen on January 19, 2015, 4:32 am

        Thanks for your direct witnessing

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 17, 2015, 7:46 pm

      “but people tell me that Jews are warned not to wear a yarmulka”

      Well, maybe they shouldn’t, if that yarmulka makes their head look fat.

      • Whizdom
        Whizdom on January 19, 2015, 10:53 am

        Try wearing a hijab.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 11:19 am

        “Try wearing a hijab.”

        Ha. Ha. Ha. ! I’m convulsed. A real wit, with a “t”

    • catporn
      catporn on January 18, 2015, 12:37 am

      I don’t live in Swaziland, but people tell me that fish have taken over the govt department of leisure and tourism. A slew of new initiatives to build hotels with suspiciously deep pools have been met with allegations of favoritism.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 18, 2015, 11:24 am

        “I don’t live in Swaziland, but people tell me that fish have taken over the govt department of leisure and tourism.”

        Mbuna, Haps and Peacock Cichlids from African rift lakes, Lake Malawi, Victoria and Tanganyika are no doubt involved. As an aquarist of long standing, I can tell you, those babies are tough. Watch out for the Lake Nyasa bunch, too!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 20, 2015, 10:27 am

        Veracity demands a confession: I never kept African Cichlids. I was big on the southern America Cichlids, the Cichlisomas, (Meeki, Dempsey, etc.) and Discus. And Angelfish, and the wonderful Corydoras catfish. Love those little guys.

    • Walid
      Walid on January 18, 2015, 11:38 am

      “I don’t live in Europe, but people tell me that Jews are warned not to wear a yarmulka in European cities because of fear of getting beaten up by Arab Muslims. ” (Yonah)

      Yonah, the list of things you don’t know is growing by the day.

  10. eljay
    eljay on January 17, 2015, 4:05 pm

    >> y.f.: … Scott Ratner does not even deign to deal with this.

    He does, however, deal with…

    … the underlying reality that Israel is actually the one place that any Jew with a social consciousness should feel more ashamed of his or her identity than any other country in the world. After all, in no other country besides Israel is Judaism the perennial justification for a [decades-]long quest to suppress and uproot the culture and presence of millions of non-Jews.

    Zio-supremacists refuse to deal with that reality. Hell, much (most?) of the time they refuse even to acknowledge it.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:32 pm

      In how many other countries are Jews forced to live outside the country, in occupied but unannexed territory, an illegal existence, hoping that someday, somehow, in spite of 60 years to the contrary, that Israel will annex the ground?

      And shall we discuss the “annexation process” what would realistically required for Israel to annex it? What other country forces Jews into a hopeless situation like that?

      I should be proud that’s what Israel has managed to do?

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:34 pm

      “Scott Ratner does not even deign to deal with this.”

      That’s because Yonah, just made it up!

  11. mnbeshara
    mnbeshara on January 17, 2015, 4:06 pm

    I don’t live in Israel. But when I went to visit Israel I had to be careful that the locals (Israelis) in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv did not realize I was a Palestinian, so that I would not be beaten up…..and then in Palestine where the soldiers knew I was an American Palestinian, I only had to worry about being shot & killed.

    • Pixel
      Pixel on January 19, 2015, 2:40 am

      Indeed.

    • Kathleen
      Kathleen on January 19, 2015, 4:36 am

      The racism that exist within the state of Israel in fact systematically embedded into their very structure and within others indoctrinated with the “chosen people” myth is being exposed and examined. A good thing.

  12. piotr
    piotr on January 17, 2015, 5:35 pm

    Years ago there was a delightful series on PBS about English-Scottish border region. One scene shown an annual celebration in a border Scottish village, when young lad would ride around the village on a horse carrying a broadsword, and he would receive it from an elder with those words: Here you have a sword, carry it with pride. This delightful rolling Scottish R made it a truly marvelous.

    And some Israeli can roll R with an equal pride, unlike, say, Senator Schumer, who does proclaim his heritage to all and sundry with utmost confidence, but with with no such sonorous color. Then again, Netanyahu himself has a rather bland accent, so I guess that he measures the pride level differently.

    So, continuing with Sen. Schumer example, is it true that while in Israel he is even more full of himself than back in U.S.A.? And if true, is it really what we need?

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 17, 2015, 5:46 pm

      PBS? Feh on NPR! So I go out to get a pack of papers (1 1/4) and the car radio goes on, and this guy is intoning, with much unction “Islam is not a religion of peace, oh no…” and I’m thinking, “Oh, my wife (sports fan) left the radio on AM. Then I looked and it was NPR! Freakin NPR!
      If anybody wants me I’ll be hiding in the root cellar. And I thought 2014 was bad.

      • piotr
        piotr on January 17, 2015, 6:25 pm

        I do not understand your complaint about NPR. I recall when folks were making a strong case that Christianity is not a religion of peace. The context was that some American Christians were objecting to Bush Jr. plans to invade Iraq “without exploring all peaceful alternatives”, and claiming that this is un-Christian. Theologians from AEI were disputing that, and their favorite Biblical verse was the following: “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

        And thus Christian Jihad was invoked to smite the infidel tyrant Saddam of Iraq.

        Conclusion: when this point, “not a religion of peace”, is raised, one has to check if the speaker personally wants a “religion of peace” for himself, or only for the others.

        PS. I actualy remember this guy only:

        Michael Novak, retired George Frederick Jewett Scholar in Religion, Philosophy, and Public Policy from the American Enterprise Institute, is an author, philosopher, and theologian. Michael Novak resides in Ave Maria, Florida as a trustee and visiting professor at Ave Maria University.

        It was the Pope who objected to war plans, and Novak who disputed the Pope.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 17, 2015, 7:34 pm

        “I do not understand your complaint about NPR. “

        Sorry, but as I said, it sounded like AM but it was NPR on FM! The reception was terrible.

      • catporn
        catporn on January 18, 2015, 1:12 am

        I like that bit from the bible where kids that disobey their parents get stoned to death, or the part where parents eat the children, that’s cool, like eyes being plucked out and fed to a bird. Great family fun, real peaceful religious stuff, and on special occasions:
        Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
        I know people tend to pick and choose which of God’s words are relevant today, but the above are long overdue a revival.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 18, 2015, 11:26 am

        “I like that bit from the bible where kids that disobey their parents get stoned “

        So do I. Everybody must get stoned.

      • Pixel
        Pixel on January 19, 2015, 2:42 am

        Do cars still have radios? ;o)

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen on January 19, 2015, 4:38 am

        Mooser what do you think about Scott’s piece?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 10:28 am

        “Mooser what do you think about Scott’s piece?”

        Way too long. My lips were tired after the first paragraph. And there’s a lot of words I don’t know.

    • Bumblebye
      Bumblebye on January 17, 2015, 7:01 pm

      piotr, you reminded me of my much missed uncle! He always said he could tel a Scotswoman by the way she rolled her arrrs. Sometimes he would make this claim when a young woman passed by and I, bewildered, would say that she hadn’t said anything! Proper Eastender, that one – 100% immigrant stock.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 18, 2015, 11:59 am

        “He always said he could tel a Scotswoman by the way she rolled her arrrs.”

        As they say of lasses of Clan Monroe: “Like Jello on springs!” That brave vibration each way free.

  13. piotr
    piotr on January 17, 2015, 5:52 pm

    Continuing with the theme, “is it a good thing”, I did Google search and, lo and behold, this is the first hit:

    When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom. Proverbs 11-2.

    I tried to find non-Biblical proverbs on “pride”, but there are so many Biblical ones, and on so many web pages that it is a bit hard. Then I tried “pride citations” and I got that: “More Than 60 Alcohol Citations Issued During Pride Festival [Long Beach, CA, May 2014]”. Apparently, pride is not conducive to sobriety.

  14. American
    American on January 17, 2015, 7:54 pm

    (The popping noise you hear is heads exploding all over I-First-dom)

    ”French Pres. Hollande: Anti-Muslimism is as bad as Antisemitism: Muslims Must be Protected”

    By Juan Cole | Jan. 17, 2015 |

    http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/muslimism-antisemitism-protected.htm

    ”French President Francois Hollande addressed the Institute of the Arab World on Friday, in a bid to reassure French Muslims, who fear being the victims of a collective guilt campaign or reprisals after the attack of radicals on Charlie Hebdo.

    Hollande said:

    “It is the Muslims who are the first victims of fanaticism, fundamentalism and intolerance…

    We must remember that . . . Islam is compatible with democracy, and that we must reject lumping everyone together or mixing them up with one another, and must have in France French of Muslim faith who have the same rights and the same duties as all citizens.

    They must be protected. Secularism helps in this regard since it respects all religions… Anti-Muslim actions, like Antisemitism, must be denounced and severely punished…

    France was formed by movements of population and the flux of immigration. It is constituted by the diversity of what is in France. A number of my compatriots have attachments in the ARab world, coming from North Africa or the Near East. They might be Jews, Muslims, Christians, they might be believers or no. But they have a link to the Arab world and they have contributed, generation after generation, to the history of France.

    In contrast to the racist discourse of the National Front, which paints Muslims as alien and dangerous and non-Muslim French as monochrome, Hollande adopted an almost American diction of celebration of immigrant communities.

    He made the argument that it isn’t importing religion into government (as many states in the Middle East unfortunately do) that guarantees minority rights but rather secular government, which tolerates all religions equally. He is being a little idealistic about actual French secularism as it is enshrined in law and practice, but the general principle is correct. Secular government can neutralize religious competition for the state of the sort we have seen in post-Bush Iraq, with all its disasters.

    Hollande surely made waves when he put anti-Muslimism on exactly the same level as Antisemitism, and pledged to be as vigorous in combating the one as the other. I haven’t heard any other Western leader go so far as to equate these two.

    Otherwise, his acceptance of the Muslim French as full French citizens is extremely important in the hothouse atmosphere of European politics today, where many right wing parties determinedly “other” the European Muslims.

    Hollande underlined that France has always received immigrants (otherwise the French would be speaking Celtic languages like Breton (which some 200,000 still do in Brittany in the north). The country is named for a German tribe that immigrated in amongst the Celts, and it speaks an imported language descended from the Latin of Roman conquerors and settlers. It is made up of distinct culture regions, not only Britanny but also Provencale, the Basque country and Alsace-Lorraine. For all residents of France to speak French was an accomplishment of the Bourbons and then the Republic during the past two and a half centuries.

    Modern France has actually seen many waves of labor migration– Italians in the nineteenth century, Poles in the early twentieth, North Africans after WW II. Its modern history in this regard has been much more like that of the United States than is commonly relized. In the nineteenth century, France was an early industrializer but underwent a demographic transition so that it had relatively low population growth. Focus-Migration France writes,

    In order to alleviate this, France concluded labour recruitment agreements with Italy (1904, 1906, 1919), Belgium (1906), Poland (1906) and Czechoslovakia (1920). At the beginning of the 1930s, France was the second most important country in the world for immigration after the USA by absolute numbers. At that time there were about 2.7 million immigrants living in France (6.6% of the total population).

    After the Second World War and during the economic upturn of the 1950s and 1960s, France once again recruited (predominantly male) workers from Italy, Portugal, Spain, Belgium, Germany, Poland and Russia. At the same time, immigration from the former colonies increased due to wars of liberation and the process of decolonisation. As a result of the Algerian War (1954–62) and the subsequent independence of Algeria in 1962, a large number of French settlers and pro-French Algerians moved to France.

    In saying that “France was formed by movements of population and the flux of immigration. It is constituted by the diversity of what is in France…” Hollande is presenting an image of France as diverse and dynamic because of its diversity, rather than as closed, racial or culturally exclusive (and thus stagnant). It is a hard case to make given the current atmosphere, and it may well lose the next election. But it is the only healthy way forward. Narrow ethnic nationalism, aside from being built on falsehoods, is a recipe for exclusion and discrimination and vast social pathologies.

    • Kris
      Kris on January 17, 2015, 9:54 pm

      @American, your link to ”French Pres. Hollande: Anti-Muslimism is as bad as Antisemitism: Muslims Must be Protected” By Juan Cole | Jan. 17, 2015 seems to be bad. I hope this one will work:

      http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/muslimism-antisemitism-protected.html

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen on January 19, 2015, 4:40 am

        Prof Cole has more insights in one paragraph than others have in their entire lives

    • Kay24
      Kay24 on January 17, 2015, 9:59 pm

      I thought what President Hollande was perfect. There is indeed this Anti Muslimism that seems to be well orchestrated and deliberate. This is a great word to describe what is happening right now. Anti-Muslimism, just as bad as Anti-Semitism. He has spoken out in a very timely manner about this. It is time leaders like him, and Islamic entities addressed this issue, it is getting out of hand, much to the satisfaction of Anti Muslim groups.

      I suggest members of MDW watch Fareed Zakaria on Sunday. He interviews a researcher/writer called Doug Saunders, who debunks the myth about Muslims becoming the majority after extensive research. It is invaluable information that should help misinformation about Muslims, and the lies about no-go zones in Europe (so laughable) by ignorant and biased persons, pretending to be experts on this subject, and believed by like minded people.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/doug-saunders/10-myths-about-muslims-in_b_1864589.html

    • piotr
      piotr on January 19, 2015, 10:48 pm

      Labour recruitment agreement with Poland in 1906 would be hard, as Poland was not independent at the time. And recruitment from Russia in 1960s? Is it what is documented in movies! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfxxr1nUHZc

  15. Bornajoo
    Bornajoo on January 17, 2015, 8:08 pm

    Great article. Thanks Scott Ratner

    Regarding Yonah’s point, I have no idea what hes talking about but it doesn’t happen in London. I can’t speak for other European cities but I bet nothing happens there either.

    • Daniel Rich
      Daniel Rich on January 17, 2015, 10:57 pm

      @ Bornajoo,

      “When you watch CNN the entire world is on fire…, but when you subsequently open a window, you’ll hear nothing but the chirping of crickets….” – Bill Hicks

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on January 18, 2015, 6:48 am

        @Daniel
        “When you watch CNN the entire world is on fire…, but when you subsequently open a window, you’ll hear nothing but the chirping of crickets….” – Bill Hicks

        Excellent! And so, so true. Oh man I miss him. Where are you Bill.. We all need you now.

        How could he die so young? A true visionary

        Bill Hicks – Weapons of Mass Destruction: http://youtu.be/A24ACOW_z_I

      • Pixel
        Pixel on January 19, 2015, 2:51 am

        @ Daniel Rich

        Ahhhh, Bill Hicks.

  16. RoHa
    RoHa on January 17, 2015, 8:39 pm

    What does “proud of being a Jew” mean?

    Self praise?

    If being a Jew is a moral, worthy, achievement, and not merely an accident of birth, then a modest amount of self praise is acceptable.

    But if it is self praise for belonging to a group in which other people have succeeded in moral, worthy, achievements, then it is not acceptable, for then one is praising oneself for things one has not done.

    (Joy arising from imagination of a man’s own power and ability is that exultation of the mind which is called glorying: which, if grounded upon the experience of his own former actions, is the same with confidence: but if grounded on the flattery of others, or only supposed by himself, for delight in the consequences of it, is called vainglory: which name is properly given; because a well-grounded confidence begetteth attempt; whereas the supposing of power does not, and is therefore rightly called vain.

    Hobbes, Leviathan, VI, 38.)

    If it is refusal to acknowledge the equality of others, then it is contemptible.

    (“If Nature therefore have made men equal, that equality is to be acknowledged; or; if Nature have made men unequal, yet because men that think themselves equal will not enter into conditions of peace but upon equal terms, such equality must be admitted. And therefore for the ninth law of Nature I put this, ‘that every man acknowledge another for his equal by nature.’ The breach of this precept is ‘pride’.”

    Hobbes, Leviathan, XV, 21)

    And that sort of pride is something to be ashamed of.

    (‘Grief’ for the discovery of some defect of ability is ‘shame,’ or the passion that discovereth itself in ‘blushing,’ and consisteth in the apprehension of something dishonourable; and in young men is a sign of the love of good reputation, and commendable: in old men it is a sign of the same; but, because it comes too late, not commendable.

    Hobbes, Leviathan, VI, 43.)

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 19, 2015, 10:31 am

      “What does “proud of being a Jew” mean? “

      RoHa, way down deep in my archive, you will find the lyrics to “I Enjoy Being a Jew” and it explains the entire thing.

      • mariapalestina
        mariapalestina on January 19, 2015, 11:35 pm

        @Mooser

        In addition to learning so many things I didn’t already know about the Israel/Palestine issue, including terrific links to articles & videos I would otherwise have missed, I confess one of the greatest MW rewards for me is the pleasure I get from Mooser’s frequent musical references.

        As one of those boring people whose greatest claim to fame is “knowing all the words, including the verse…” and being a great fan of musical comedy going back before I was born, I appreciate so much phrases such as “Do do the Voodoo that you do so well!” And I laughed out loud when I read “I enjoy being a Jew..” Loved that musical.

        So thanks, Mooser, for always giving me something to sing and chuckle about. (Now to get Cole Porter out of my head…)

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 20, 2015, 5:42 pm

        Thanks. The embarrassing thing is, that parody is actually somewhere in there. And I had such high hopes for the format switch-over, too. Just one of those things, I guess.

  17. 6poppy
    6poppy on January 17, 2015, 8:44 pm

    I have to remind Scott and many that commented of the story of the six blind men and the elephant who described what an elephant looks like from six points of view. Scott, This is an old man’s point of view on this issue.

    I grew up in the ’30s in a two family house in Coney Island. We lived upstairs and a doctor was downstairs. I knew him to be Jewish and we all called him Dr. Cohn. His name was on a shingle in the front of the house but it wasn’t till after many years that I realized that the shingle read “Dr. Cohan”. Jews in those days could not get into medical schools.

    I learned to fix radios and applied for a job. I was given a test and told to wait. I waited all day for the interview and when I complained about the wait, I was called and was told I interchanged wires in my answer to a question. This wasn’t true but somehow they had concluded I was Jewish and there would not be a job for me in this large company.

    I would have had a tough time getting into NYU but returning veterans from World War ll changed enrollment policy at NYU and colleges across the country.

    It’s true that the situation today is not the same in the US as it was in the 30’s and early 40’s, but to think that antisemitism is not prevalent or made innate to many peoples around the world can only be the result of sticking your head in the ground.

    I have never feared for my safety in the US, but I can never forget my first trip to Israel and the feeling of warmth and protection I felt. It may not have been real but I did feel it although there may have been more danger there for me because of rockets and suicide bombers.

    I surely don’t always agree with Netenyahu but you have to consider where he comes from when he makes some of his comments. Whatever reduction there is in antisemitism around the world comes in no small part from Israel being there. They have truly done so much in so mayny ways.

    Marty

    • eljay
      eljay on January 17, 2015, 9:29 pm

      >> 6poppy: … I surely don’t always agree with Netenyahu but you have to consider where he comes from when he makes some of his comments. Whatever reduction there is in antisemitism around the world comes in no small part from Israel being there. They have truly done so much in so mayny ways. <<

      Israel was envisioned not as an Israeli state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, ex-pats and refugees, equally, but as a religion-supremacist "Jewish State" primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

      The "Jewish State" of Israel was born of Jewish terrorism and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and lands.

      For over 60 years and with impunity, the "Jewish State" of Israel has been stealing, occupying and colonizing Palestinian land and oppressing, torturing and killing Palestinians.

      The "Jewish State" of Israel refuses to honour its obligations under international law, refuses to accept any responsibility or accountability for its past and ON-GOING (war) crimes and refuses to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

      The "Jewish State" of Israel – which purports to represent and to speak and act on behalf of all Jewish people in the world – has indeed done so much in so many ways. And while it is wrong* and I condemn it, it should surprise no-one that whatever increase there is in antisemitism around the world comes in no small part from Israel being there.
      __________________________________
      (*I do not believe that all Jews should be held accountable for the crimes of Jewish and non-Jewish Zio-supremacists.)

    • Kris
      Kris on January 17, 2015, 9:44 pm

      @6poppy: “Jews in those days could not get into medical schools.”

      You might be interested in this article http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/26/health/26quot.html?_r=0“

      “We limit the number of Jews admitted to each class to roughly the proportion of Jews in the population of the state,” the dean of Cornell University Medical College said in 1940, according to the journal article. At Yale Medical School, applications of Jewish students were marked with an “H” for “Hebrew.”

      “As a result, the number of Jewish students dropped. At the Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons, for example, the percentage of Jewish students fell to 6 percent from 47 percent between 1920 and 1940.”

      So in the 1930s, a very large percentage of the medical students were Jewish.

      • Kris
        Kris on January 17, 2015, 10:10 pm

        It was blacks, not Jews, who were prevented from completing medical education. http://kuhistory.com/articles/there-is-too-much-talk-here-about-segregation/

        “… it became generally understood that blacks would be prevented from completing an MD at the KU School of Medicine. African Americans could receive their first two years of pre-clinical scientific instruction at KU, which was taught primarily at the Lawrence campus. But the final two years of hands-on clinical training had to be obtained elsewhere, often at historically black medical schools such as Howard in Washington, DC, and Meharry in Nashville, Tennessee.”

      • Kris
        Kris on January 17, 2015, 10:58 pm

        Sorry, I think I read this wrong, and it really means that between 1920 and 1940, the percentage of Jewish students in medical school was initially 47 percent, and fell to 6 percent. Some schools imposed quotas on Jewish students.

        “After City College, Jonas Salk enrolled in New York University to study medicine. According to Oshinsky, NYU based its modest reputation on famous alumni, such as Walter Reed, who helped conquer yellow fever. Tuition was “comparatively low, better still, it did not discriminate against Jews, . . . while most of the surrounding medical schools—Cornell, Columbia, University of Pennsylvania, and Yale—had rigid quotas in place.” Yale, for example, accepted 76 applicants, in 1935, out of a pool of 501. Although 200 of the applicants were Jewish, only five got in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Salk

        “(Historian Oshinsky) notes that (at Yale), Dean Milton Winternitz’s instructions were remarkably precise: “Never admit more than five Jews, take only two Italian Catholics, and take no blacks at all.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 18, 2015, 12:11 pm

        , “Dean Milton Winternitz’s instructions were remarkably precise: “Never admit more than five Jews, take only two Italian Catholics, and take no blacks at all.”

        I needn’t mention that the Yale Medical School Jazz Band was a disgrace during that period. No time, no swing.

    • catporn
      catporn on January 18, 2015, 2:01 am

      @6poppy
      And maybe one day all the people born to that land will feel the “warmth and protection” you, a stranger from the other side of the world, enjoyed there.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 18, 2015, 11:31 am

      “This wasn’t true but somehow they had concluded I was Jewish and there would not be a job for me in this large company.”

      Well ,maybe there were blacks getting the job you should have gotten.

      • Pixel
        Pixel on January 19, 2015, 2:59 am

        @ Mooser

        Your comments, globally, warm the cockles of my heart.

      • Pixel
        Pixel on January 19, 2015, 3:01 am

        @ Mooser

        …Yale Medical School Jazz Band…

        ROTFLMAO

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 10:34 am

        “…Yale Medical School Jazz Band…”

        You should hear this swingin’ assemblage today! When the sax’s and the sitars start swapping “4”s, the dancers go nuts!
        And they can beat me, Daddy 5, or 7 to the bar, too!

        “Your comments, globally, warm the cockles of my heart.”

        I aim to gruntle. But let me know if your withers start wringing.

  18. Xpat
    Xpat on January 17, 2015, 10:10 pm

    “As the birthplace of the Jewish religion and the location where its most important modern day features and symbols came into being, the land of Israel should…”

    Scott, I agree with most of what you write and thank you for writing it but this reading of Jewish history is simply not true:.
    1) 4.5 out of the 5 books of the Torah take place outside Canaan. For the Israelite period, it would be more reasonable to locate the birth of Judaism in Egypt or the desert.
    2) The most fundamental work of Judaism, the Talmud is the Babylonian version. (Its Palestinian counterpart is much smaller and is largely ignored). One could more fairly say that Judaism is predominantly Iraqi.
    3) With rare exception all of the post-Talmudic development of Judaism happened outside the Land of Israel.

    Regarding the present day, the identification of modern Israel with the “most important symbols” of Judaism is ideological. I think that would largely be rejected by non-Zionists.

    • Walid
      Walid on January 18, 2015, 12:24 am

      “… 1) 4.5 out of the 5 books of the Torah take place outside Canaan. For the Israelite period, it would be more reasonable to locate the birth of Judaism in Egypt or the desert.

      2) The most fundamental work of Judaism, the Talmud is the Babylonian version. (Its Palestinian counterpart is much smaller and is largely ignored). One could more fairly say that Judaism is predominantly Iraqi.

      3) With rare exception all of the post-Talmudic development of Judaism happened outside the Land of Israel. ”

      Elliot, thanks for this significant detail of history. It brought to mind the development of the Quran from its revelation first with the gentler and kinder suras at Mecca and later with the more authoritative ones at Medina. Contrary to the Bible, the suras are not placed in the chronological order by which they were revealed.

  19. Whizdom
    Whizdom on January 17, 2015, 10:32 pm

    The ground truth is that were quotas in most medical schools in New York in the ’30’s designed to reduce the numbers of Jews winning seats from the WASPS.

    NYU Med didn’t have quotas and medical school admission remained majority Jewish through this period.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 19, 2015, 10:50 am

      Whizdom, my friend, you are giving us a wonderful guided tour of what’s inside a self-proclaimed “liberal Zionist”. Not just here. Here, there, and everywhere.

      • Whizdom
        Whizdom on January 19, 2015, 11:04 am

        Mulchster, you mean the windblown and interesting and yet effortlessly damn good looking thing?
        I’ll bet if we sat down and had a Sodastream diet root beer together we’d find common ground.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 4:11 pm

        “I’ll bet if we sat down and had a Sodastream diet root beer together we’d find common ground.”

        Ho ho ho, you’re a riot, Whizdom. Well, it’s easy to see just how seriously you take the problem of Israel stealing other people’s land, and colonizing it.

        Of course, I gotta admit it, that constant nod-nod, wink-wink towards common bigotries is one of the first things which disgusted me about Zionism. Before I even really knew what it was about. So you knew right where to go.

  20. Whizdom
    Whizdom on January 17, 2015, 11:24 pm

    And they didn’t even need to keep statistics on African Americans, or the few Asian, Catholic Irish and Italian that snuck in.

    Bigotry, nativism, racism, segregation and discrimination was pervasive, including anti-semitism. In the professions, electoral politics, suburban housing, country clubs.

    It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

    • Pixel
      Pixel on January 19, 2015, 3:30 am

      @whizdom

      oops, forgot sexism.

      “No, I won’t write a reference for you to apply to medical school, and stop wasting my time.

      Where in the world did you get such a selfish idea in the first place? Girls can’t do math or science AND you’d be taking a spot from a man!

      No, the sooner you get that silly notion out of that pretty little head of yours, the better. Babies – now, that’s what you need.

      You’re an attractive girl. Go catch a husband, get married, and have some babies.

      You’ll see I’m right; you’ll thank me for it.”

      • Whizdom
        Whizdom on January 19, 2015, 10:56 am

        In the early 50’s, women medical school grads were about 4% of the total. Astonishing to think of that these days. What were they thinking?

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 19, 2015, 10:43 am

      “Bigotry, nativism, racism, segregation and discrimination was pervasive, including anti-semitism. In the professions, electoral politics, suburban housing, country clubs.”

      Because, in case you didn’t know, discrimination was legal then. And yes, in theory and in some practice, Jews could discriminate against others too, at that time.

      And gee, who do we have to thank for the legal fight against discrimination? Wasn’t it a guy named Thurgood Marshall?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 10:47 am

        Funny, isn’t it, who found it necessary to fight against segregation, and who seemed to be able to live with it?

      • Whizdom
        Whizdom on January 19, 2015, 11:10 am

        Musker, Not Ben Cardozo?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 20, 2015, 10:31 am

        “Musker, Not Ben Cardozo?”

        Ah yes, Ben Cardozo, the father of Consumer Protection. Hoooray!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 20, 2015, 5:44 pm

        Not that Ben wasn’t a heck of a guy in every way, of course.

  21. Daniel Rich
    Daniel Rich on January 18, 2015, 1:54 am

    ‘Gett: The Trial of Viviane Amsalem’.

    Is there any pride to begin with?

    • Bornajoo
      Bornajoo on January 20, 2015, 8:45 am

      Daniel

      Thanks for posting this link. I just ordered this dvd. This is an Israeli film that exposes the fact that marriage laws are not common or secular but fall under rabbinical law. The film is about a Jewish Israeli woman who wants to get a divorce from her Jewish Israeli husband but only HE has the power and the right to grant that divorce. This film is about the struggle of one woman to obtain the “gett” which is something only the husband can grant. Yes that woman is still free to marry again under civil law but without the Gett her children would be considered illegitimate (mamzerim… Which is also a swear word in Hebrew, like he English ‘bastard’) and can only marry another illegitimate ‘mamzer’

      • jon s
        jon s on January 21, 2015, 4:00 am

        It really is an excellent Israeli film. Think of the challenge of making such a rivetting movie – that takes place in the confines of one room! It draws attention to a real problem, does so with occasional humor, and – to add to the authenticity – it’s tri-lingual (Hebrew, French and Moroccan-Arabic).

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on January 21, 2015, 12:08 pm

        @Jon S
        “It really is an excellent Israeli film. Think of the challenge of making such a rivetting movie – that takes place in the confines of one room! It draws attention to a real problem, does so with occasional humor, and – to add to the authenticity – it’s tri-lingual (Hebrew, Fench and Moroccan-Arabic).”

        So Jon, do you think that it’s high time israel brings the legal framework concerning marriages into common secular law?

        I’m not sure how many people outside of Israel realise that marriage laws in israel are under rabbinical law where obtaining a divorce can only be granted by the husband. If the husband refuses this puts the wife into a pretty nasty position. Extremely unfair on the wife.

        Hardly something you would expect to find in the only true democracy in the middle east

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 21, 2015, 2:23 pm

        As I understand it, Bornajoo (and correct me if I am wrong, as you would know better) before anybody can proceed to all the pleasures and challenges of divorce, you will need religious permission, and religious approval of your choice, before you get married, or you won’t get hitched.
        And there is no civil marriage, and if I’m not mistaken, not even marriage can give people the right to live together.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on January 21, 2015, 4:22 pm

        Mooser, I think you are right in your interpretation of the divorce/remarriage issue but I’m not completely sure.

        What I do know is that there are lots and lots of rules. Orthodox Jews live their lives by following endless rules. About everything! I remember my father gave my mother a book about ritual purity. The local Chabad Rabbi gave it to my dad and told him he should ensure my mum followed the rules. My mum read the book and told him to stuff it up his you know what. But when my dad died about 10 years ago my mother showed us the book which she had away.

        Basically when a woman is menstruating she is called a Niddah and lots of rules have to be followed. I just found some blog on the Internet which summarises that little book (saves me from writing it down!)

        “For couples who are shomer negiah, this means that they are shomer negiah to each other (and with some additional restrictions according to their minhag) during this time. So to spell that out, in addition to no “relations,” they also don’t touch each other, hug/kiss each other, etc. This can also extend to passing each other items, eating from the same plate, or even looking each other in the eye. An example often joked about (though a totally serious halachic ruling) is not playing tennis because that is passing the ball to each other. As a practical matter, this means that the spouses are more restricted with each other than with other members of the opposite sex. As you can imagine, this can be a very difficult mitzvah to keep! On the other hand, couples say this means they have to be especially careful to develop their ability to communicate. You can’t end an argument by distracting yourselves with make-up sex. More common is to separate the beds during the niddah period. Most people have 2 twin beds that they can push together as one bed after the niddah period”

        http://crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/halacha-in-nutshell-laws-of-family.html?m=1

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 21, 2015, 5:19 pm

        “Basically when a woman is menstruating she is called a Niddah and lots of rules have to be followed.”

        Sometimes they don’t feel so great during that time, and a little consideration is never amiss.
        And that, BTW, is the sum total of my knowledge of the female digestive system.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on January 21, 2015, 5:38 pm

        “Sometimes they don’t feel so great during that time, and a small amount of consideration is never amiss.”

        Agreed Mooser.

        In my own personal opinion dumping a whole load of rules on them to strictly follow during that time is hardly considerate. (hence my mum telling my dad to shove that little book up his ***)

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 21, 2015, 8:20 pm

        “In my own personal opinion dumping a whole load of rules on them to strictly follow…. is hardly considerate.”

        For me, it would likely be suicidal, any time of the day, month or year. My wife rules with an iron whim.

  22. Daniel Rich
    Daniel Rich on January 18, 2015, 3:54 am

    Israel lobbies foreign powers to cut ICC funding.

    Yeah, lets just turn justice into another monetary commodity.

    “Accountability? Not as long as I have money in the bank.” – Saul Mammon

    • Bornajoo
      Bornajoo on January 18, 2015, 12:10 pm

      @Daniel

      “Yeah, lets just turn justice into another monetary commodity.”

      Well if anyone can do it, they can!

      Now who would have thought of that strategy? Call up their *friends * and order them to cut funding for the ICC so it cannot operate. Just when you thought you’ve seen and heard it all they come up with strategies that defies belief. I’m dying to see if any of their lackies agree. In a way I hope they do because it will further expose the utter hypocrisy of the entire system.

      • Daniel Rich
        Daniel Rich on January 18, 2015, 9:59 pm

        @ Bornajoo,

        Q: I’m dying to see if any of their lackies agree. In a way I hope they do because it will further expose the utter hypocrisy of the entire system.

        R: Alive you’re more valuable [to me, at least]. I’m torn between optimism [yes, the house of Saudis cards will eventually come down] and realism [look at what happened in Paris and how every MSM rag beats its chest to a bloody pulp as the ‘Fender Bender Defender of Freedom of Speech’].

        If we use the past [actions and deeds over the last decade or so] as a moral yard shtick to predict the future, I tend to lean toward a bleaker one [in the sense of what will actually be achieved within my lifetime].

        Not that I’ve given up hope, but the sluggishness and the snail speed of progress can be daunting at times.

    • jon s
      jon s on January 22, 2015, 2:29 am

      Bornajoo,
      Orthodox rabbis will make rulings based on Halakha, and can hardly be expected to do otherwise. The problem is the monopoly enjoyed by the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel on matters of personal status (weddings, divorce, conversion) and I agree with you that there should be legal alternatives available here, not only getting married in Cyprus or wherever.

      You’re right that a husband who refuses to grant a gett puts the wife in a nasty position. The husband, too: he could be sent to jail.

      On the “family purity” rules: I hope you’ve noticed that Orthodox families tend to have lots of kids. What I’ve heard them say is that those rules promote a loving relationship , in which the couple goes through “courting” every month.

      On the topic of this thread: It’s perfectly natural to be proud of your people and of your country, while acknowledging its faults, and all the issues that need to be fixed.
      One could ask of an American : Are you proud to be an American? Are you a patriot? Do you love your country? (And the same for a Brit, or a Russian or a Palestinian…)
      The answer , in most cases, will be “yes I am”, despite the —- (fill in the blemishes: racism, inequality, etc.)
      So, too, for most Israelis, including myself: there’s a lot to take pride in, and a lot that needs to be fixed.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on January 22, 2015, 4:34 am

        Jon S

        Thanks for your opinion. Nicely said.

        But I would just like to point out that Israel has ALL of those blemishes (racism, inequality and a load more) AND those archaic rabbinical marriage laws!

        definitely a huge amount for the only democracy in the Middle East to fix.

      • eljay
        eljay on January 22, 2015, 1:11 pm

        >> jon seee: So, too, for most Israelis, including myself: there’s a lot to take pride in, and a lot that needs to be fixed.

        Like you, I look forward to Israel:
        – ending its occupation and colonization of Palestine and Jerusalem;
        – honouring its obligations under international law, including RoR for refugees; and
        – reforming from a supremacist “Jewish State” into a secular and democratic Israeli state.

      • piotr
        piotr on January 23, 2015, 12:51 pm

        “You’re right that a husband who refuses to grant a gett puts the wife in a nasty position. The husband, too: he could be sent to jail.”

        This is not a joke, people are put in jail for that reason in Israel, which I find quite insane.

        In a sane world, either we think that the spouse has no right to prevent the marriage from being dissolved, and if so, the opinion/agreement of the spouse should not matter, or the agreement is necessary, and thus the business is up to that person. In other words, forcing a chap to give the get is ridiculous.

        Halacha has more such mental pretzels. For example, if a husband dies and there are no children yet, his brother has the duty to marry the widow (does not count as bigamy), but the widow has the duty to refuse the offer of her brother-in-law. It kind of say that while initially Hashem had a good idea, now, in different circumstances, we should not follow that idea, but make some pretense of following it, lest Hashem will be sad. Apparently, while omnipotent, Hashem is rather childish.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 23, 2015, 5:33 pm

        “>> jon seee: So, too, for most Israelis, including myself: there’s a lot to take pride in, and a lot that needs to be fixed.”

        Why don’t you start adding up the cost of “a lot that needs to be fixed” and tell me when it goes over-budget, “Jon s”? Starting with the settlers, the occupation, Jerusalem, and moving on to Israel’s discriminatory laws. Israel has, for reasons best known to itself, created insoluble problems for the people in Palestine (I mean all the people, including Jews.)
        Of course, you can hope for a miracle, straight from God. And what’s broken about Israel? Everything about Israel shows that everything about Israel is pretty much as the Zionists want. Hell, they are always bragging about that!

  23. Mooser
    Mooser on January 18, 2015, 11:36 am

    Gosh, when I think how America unfairly pushed all those other minorities ahead, while holding Jews back, I could plotz.!

    All those other people, Africans, Mexicans, Latin Americans, Asians, being given every advantage, culturally and economically cossetted and coddled, and given the jobs, comfort acceptance and security that Jews should have had! I tell you, a Jew can’t breath in this place!

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 18, 2015, 12:19 pm

      Okay, now, thinking about the medical-school-quotas, and the real-estate covenants, I’m mad, angry You know what caused all the trouble, allowed antisemitism to flourish in America? It’s that goddam First Amendment! Just read it:

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,

      And right there, any chance for Jews in America to organize as a group, and petition the government for the things they deserved went down the drain. I knew they had it in for us!

      You know what, I bet the stupid US government doesn’t even identify us by religion (except for voluntarily given census information, which is anonymous) so they know who we are and can protect us! Doesn’t care about us at all?
      Is the US government even in contact with the major Jewish organizations? I doubt it!

      • Whizdom
        Whizdom on January 18, 2015, 12:29 pm

        There’s been great progress. I can’t think of an area of social endeavour in the United States, the professions, journalism, media, finance, politics, entertainment where Jews are under-represented. We’ve come a long way. The final frontiers seem to be US Army infantry and professional hockey. We can always do better.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 18, 2015, 3:41 pm

        “There’s been great progress.”

        You call that progress? All those accomplishments, and we aren’t even officially recognized! We will never get what we are entitled to if we can’t be represented! The US government might not even know you or I are Jews. How can they even claim to protect us? No recognition, and no Jewish citizenship!
        And you call that progress. I call it , not just divide, but atomize and conquer!

        And, as you say, in spite of all those accomplishments, none of which we were obligated to favor the US with. Has the US government ever donated a penny to build a Synagogue? Or endow a Rabbinical College?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 18, 2015, 3:59 pm

        Oh, I’m sorry “Whizdom” I didn’t mean to be brusque, but the subject does get me a bit famischt. Anyway it’s almost brunch, and such nachos that brings. With fetish cheese, too.

        Anyway, “Whizdom” I take your point, the accomplishments have been a’plenty, and if we all work together, and show the good ol tribal unity, we can work past, or maybe even repeal that stupid First Amendment which has oppressed American Jews for 200 years!

      • Whizdom
        Whizdom on January 18, 2015, 4:13 pm

        Yeah, we finally get into the Augusta golf club and now they want to let women and asians in. I tell ya, the repression never ends.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 18, 2015, 4:59 pm

        “I tell ya, the repression never ends.”

        They won’t even let us organize, and associate, and petition the government, a basic right of all Americans! Nor elect Representatives.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 21, 2015, 2:32 pm

        I’m telling you, when I think of all those people in America whose very person-hood had to be fought for, decision by decision, a fight still in progress, it just seems unreasonable that the government won’t even recognize us as a “tribe” or “nation” or “people”. Because of this, our leaders, instead of being recognized, have to engage in an unseemly scramble for relevance and authority and power! And each one of us is exposed, individually or in groups, to the full power of the Federal Government! The situation is ripe for exploitation!
        Still, “progress has been made”. I’ll try and comfort myself with that.

    • tree
      tree on January 18, 2015, 1:58 pm

      All those other people, Africans, Mexicans, Latin Americans, Asians, being given every advantage, culturally and economically cossetted and coddled, and given the jobs, comfort acceptance and security that Jews should have had!

      Hey, don’t forget women too!

      I’d say that all of those people would have considered quotas that merely limited their numbers in colleges and jobs to their demographic percentage of the population to have been a great improvement over their restricted condition during the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, etc.. Its hard to elicit much sympathy about Jewish quotas in comparison to the much harsher discrimination that other minorities (and women) faced in the job market.

      And guess what? All those other minorities had another country that they could pretend was their “homeland”. Didn’t help them a lick, and at certain times being perceived by the population at large as having such a “homeland” just got them in trouble. Witness German-Americans during WWI and II and Japanese-Americans during WWII.

    • jon s
      jon s on January 29, 2015, 4:11 pm

      Mooser, “adding up the cost” , as you put it:
      All in all, bottom-line: with all its faults, all that needs to be fixed, Israel is a good place to live. Wouldn’t dream of living anywhere else.

      • mariapalestina
        mariapalestina on January 29, 2015, 4:56 pm

        @Jon s
        “All in All, bottom-line: with all its faults, all that needs to be fixed, Israel i a good place to live. Wouldn’t dream of living anywhere else.”

        A good place for people like you, I guess. Jewish. Probably European. Beneficiary of an apartheid system that gives you a privileged status. Why wouldn’t you like living there?

      • eljay
        eljay on January 29, 2015, 5:18 pm

        >> jon seee: … with all its faults, all that needs to be fixed …

        Like you, I look forward to Israel:
        – ending its occupation and colonization of Palestine and Jerusalem;
        – honouring its obligations under international law, including RoR for refugees; and
        – reforming from a supremacist “Jewish State” into a secular and democratic Israeli state.

  24. Whizdom
    Whizdom on January 18, 2015, 12:20 pm

    Morris Fishbein, the editor of the prestigious Journal of the American Medical Association 1924-1950, remarked in an interview:

    “If there were quotas in the past, he declared, they were geographical and not religious. State medical colleges favor entrants from their own state, he pointed out. Nevertheless, geographical quotas worked against the tremendous number of New York City Jewish applicants, he said, until New York State increased the number of its medical schools in the past decade.”

    Read more: http://www.jta.org/1959/12/08/archive/dr-fishbein-sees-no-hindrances-for-jewish-students-to-study-medicine#ixzz3PC7Un0OP

    N.B. NYU Medical school (during the time of racial quotas at other NYC schools) produced an amazing generation of physicians)

  25. Walid
    Walid on January 18, 2015, 12:43 pm

    Interesting piece picked up by Richard Silverstein from Maariv. On French Prime Minister Valls being manhandled by Netanyahu’s goons in Paris’ Grand Synagogue:

    “Shin Bet Manhandled French Prime Minister in Paris Grand Synagogue, Bibi Insulted French Jewish Leadership

    by RICHARD SILVERSTEIN on JANUARY 18, 2015

    shin bet insulted french prime minister

    Maariv article detailing Shin Bet insult to French prime minister

    Maariv today published an astonishing story. Anyone reading this blog is used to the brutishness of the Shin Bet. But usually it’s reserved for Palestinians, Arab journalists, and air travelers with Arab “racial” profiles. We would never expect it to be meted out to the elected leader of a country that is an Israeli ally.

    On the day of the memorial service for those slain in the kosher supermarket attack, Prime Minister Manuel Valls sought to take his seat in the synagogue with the President, Francois Hollande and Israel’s leader, Bibi Netanyahu. As he approached his seat, his path was blocked by a Shin Bet agent who refused to allow him to pass until Netanyahu had taken his own seat. According to Valls, the agent grabbed his arm and forced him to wait until the Israeli had seated himself.

    Valls shouted at him in French and English:

    You don’t make the rules here. You provide security for the prime minister of Israel, that is all….”

    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2015/01/18/shin-bet-manhandled-french-prime-minister-in-paris-grand-synagogue-bibi-insulted-french-jewish-leadership/#comments

  26. Mooser
    Mooser on January 19, 2015, 11:32 am

    Oh, somewhere in this chosen land the sun is shining bright,
    The klezmer band band is playing and somewhere hearts are light;
    And somewhere men are praying, and somewhere children
    shout,
    But there’s no pride for Jews in Israel—the Zionists struck out.

    • Whizdom
      Whizdom on January 19, 2015, 11:36 am

      The sneer is gone from Netanyahu’s lip, his teeth are clenched in hate,
      He pounds with cruel violence his bat upon the plate;
      And now the pitcher holds the ball, and now he lets it go,
      And now the air is shattered by the force of BiBi’s blow.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on January 19, 2015, 4:19 pm

        Whizdom, we get it, you love the man. And besides, there’s nothing to get upset about in the election. No matter what happens, very little will change.

  27. bilal a
    bilal a on January 20, 2015, 10:11 am

    what about ‘pride’ outside the state of Israel ( for all of us ), even the Greats )?

    Stephen Hawking pictured on Jeffrey Epstein’s ‘Island of Sin’

    pathetic

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03162/epstein_hawking_3162293b.jpg

  28. Boomer
    Boomer on January 21, 2015, 6:46 am

    As an American who isn’t a Jew, I’m an outsider to this discussion. Yet, as an American taxpayer, I’m involved, even complicit. For us, there is no pride in American policy regarding Palestine and Israel.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on January 21, 2015, 12:25 pm

      “As an American who isn’t a Jew, I’m an outsider to this discussion.”

      “Boomer”, if you hadn’t said that, I never would have known. Besides, what makes you so sure?

  29. Vera Gottlieb
    Vera Gottlieb on January 21, 2015, 10:51 am

    The constant whining is more than annoying.

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