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Jerusalem at a breaking point

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In 1967 Israel conquered the West Bank militarily and unilaterally annexed Jerusalem. In the 48 years since Israel has been using a range of physical, legal and psychological methods to try and force the Palestinian populations from their homes and claim the city as the ethnically pure capital of the Jewish state. 

For years the overriding sense in the city has been of constriction, of the noose slowly and irreversibly tightening around the necks of those 370,000 Palestinians.

An enormous concrete ring of Jewish-only settlements has been built around the city. An apartheid wall separates it from the rest of the West Bank. Highways and rail-lines slice through Palestinian neighbourhoods. Houses are demolished and children are jailed while communities are routinely threatened by armed settlers and the soldiers backing them up. Residency permits are revoked at the slightest opportunity so you can’t marry or study or work outside the city. There is strategic diversion of municipal funds and services that keeps schools underperforming and streets dirty and houses disconnected from the water network. There is the daily psychological humiliation of living under the triumphant Israeli flag and hustling in an economy beholden to Israeli tourism. 

At the symbolic center of it all is the Noble Sanctuary: a beautiful walled garden that holds two of the most important mosques in the world, al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. It is Jerusalem’s centerpiece, it is the ultimate prize.

When I first went to Jerusalem in 2002 I passed a tiny shop in the Old City. In it were models of the Third Temple: a shrine that an extremist group of settlers planned on building in place of the Dome of the Rock.

Today that fringe movement has, with the support of the government, become mainstream. The hole-in-the-wall is now an emporium and throughout the Jewish quarter are postcards and plates and t-shirts for sale emblazoned with the vision of Third Temple.

An Orthodox Jewish rendering of a vision for the Third Temple

An Orthodox Jewish rendering of a vision for the Third Temple

When you live in Jerusalem, the Noble Sanctuary is exactly that. It is a shield from the daily humiliations of occupation, it is the center of traditional life in the city, it is the psycho-social heart. It is the one place that Israel does not own.

And so it is under attack. Every day groups of settlers are given armed escorts through its gardens, Israeli soldiers loll on the grass and receive lectures from officers while access to Palestinian residents and worshipers is regularly restricted. At the entrance used for the settlers, the police have dozens of riot shields lined up in preparation for the next clash. 

The violence, of course, is not concentrated in Jerusalem. Across the West Bank settlers are on the attack. There have been 395 Palestinians injured in the last 24 hours and the Red Crescent has declared a state of emergency after at least 14 ambulance crews were attacked. In Jerusalem a mob tore through the city looking for Arabs, going so far as to stop a tram and ‘check’ everyone on it. The rampage ended with the death of a young Palestinian man whose family say had gone out for a jog. [And today a 13-year-old Palestinian boy was reportedly killed by Israeli forces in the Aida refugee camp near Bethlehem.]

Life in Palestine is a life being pushed to breaking point. Because it is at those breaking points that Israel unleashes itself. When individuals are pushed beyond the line where their lives are worth living, when a Palestinian stabs an Israeli even though he knows, without question, that he will not live for more than a few more minutes – that is the kind of random, unorganised violence that Israel needs to sustain itself and keep alive the cycle of massive retaliations that it believes will ultimately rid it of the Palestinians altogether.

Omar Robert Hamilton

Omar Robert Hamilton is a filmmaker and writer. He co-founded Cairo's Mosireen Collective, making dozens of short political films on the Egyptian Revolution. He is also a co-founder of The Palestine Festival of Literature, and has worked as Festival Producer since 2010.

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140 Responses

  1. amigo on October 5, 2015, 3:51 pm

    “that is the kind of random, unorganised violence that Israel needs to sustain itself and keep alive the cycle of massive retaliations that it believes will ultimately rid it of the Palestinians altogether. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/jerusalem-breaking-point#sthash.AtH2UBuU.dpuf

    Exactly what I have been saying for more than ten years. Ok , I am slow on the uptake .

    • annie on October 5, 2015, 4:16 pm

      i totally agree amigo, however i would have included the forwarding phrasing.

      When individuals are pushed beyond the line where their lives are worth living, when a Palestinian stabs an Israeli even though he knows, without question, that he will not live for more than a few more minutes – that is the kind of random….

      this is what i meant when i said it was ‘by design’ the other day. i would have gone crazy many years ago if i was being pushed like this. it’s a means to an end for them. it’s how they are conquering the rest of palestine inch by inch.

      • amigo on October 5, 2015, 5:30 pm

        My point was not directed specifically at you Annie but that conversation did come to mind.

        what,s so frustrating , is that there are so many people out there still buying this crap about a 2SS.They must be blind or brain dead.How much evidence do they need.What is even more enraging is the lack of balance practiced by intl MSM.The Irish Times and Radio/TV Ireland have been reporting the deaths of the 4 Israeli Jews but not one word about the many many Palestinians murdered by Israel and that includes the Palestinian Girl shot in cold blood by those fiends.

        Sometimes it is truly hard to bear.What must it be like for the victims to spend day after day , and to recall your post the other day, “Year after year” enduring what they have to.

        I,m off to bed to try to sleep.

  2. gracie fr on October 5, 2015, 4:23 pm

    232 Palestinians injured within 24 hours
    RAMALLAH, (PIC)– At least 12 Palestinians were shot and injured, some with live ammunition, during the overnight clashes that broke out in Ramallah and al-Bireh, raising the number of injured persons to 232 within 24 hours.

    Five youths were shot with live bullets, while five others suffered rubber bullet injuries during clashes erupted between dozens of local residents and Israeli forces after the later stormed al-Bireh city. Many others suffered tear gas inhalation.

    The injured persons were transferred to hospital as they suffer moderate to severe wounds.

    The clashes broke out in the city after Israeli forces stormed in large numbers the city and opened heavy fire towards the local residents who responded by throwing stones at them.

    On the other hand, two other young men were hit and injured with live ammunition during similar confrontation that broke out in Jalazoun refugee camp in Ramallah.

    Over the past 24 hours, 232 Palestinians were injured during the clashes that erupted between Israeli forces and settlers on the one hand and Palestinian youths on the second hand throughout occupied West Bank and Jerusalem.

    The Palestinian Red Crescent said in a statement issued late on Sunday that 18 Palestinians had been shot with live rounds, while at least 55 were hit with rubber-coated steel bullets.

    36 others suffered excessive tear gas inhalation, while 10 others were subjected to severe beatings by Israeli soldiers or settlers, the statement added.

    The Palestinian Red Crescent earlier declared a state of emergency across the occupied West Bank and Jerusalem following an upsurge in violence by Israeli soldiers and settlers.

    The statement listed 14 attacks on Red Crescent staff and vehicles in a 72-hour period, in what it described as “a serious escalation of violations against PRCS, its teams and the humanitarian services they render.”

    Earlier on Sunday, two Palestinian citizens were injured at an Israeli military checkpoint near Bethlehem. Eight others suffered different injuries during the continued clashes throughout West Bank and occupied Jerusalem.

    Tensions had been steadily mounting in recent weeks across West Bank and specially in occupied Jerusalem due to Israeli restrictions on Palestinians seeking to enter the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound and Israeli settlers’ provocative attacks on Palestinian citizens and properties.

    http://english.palinfo.com/site/pages/details.aspx?itemid=73925

  3. Les on October 5, 2015, 6:08 pm

    Has Abbas told his security forces it is okay to use their weapons against their Israeli occupiers and not just against fellow Palestinian victims, or does Abbas continue to be Israel’s chief Palestinian collaborater?

  4. just on October 5, 2015, 6:42 pm

    So how many of the violent Israeli mob terrorists were arrested?

    (The waqf and Abdullah needs to get their collective arses in gear~ long ago! It’s utterly shameful and criminal that these provocations and grossly disrespectful actions are allowed to continue!)

    Thank you for this article, Omar.

  5. Palikari on October 5, 2015, 6:45 pm

    The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place. Jews have right to visit and pray, but we are not allowed to, in the Jewish capital of the Jewish state. This is outrageous.

    I am not saying Muslims shouldn’t be allowed to pray there. It’s a holy place for Islam, too. I am just saying that it should be opened for ALL religions. This is called FREEDOM and EQUALITY.

    I am just defending freedom of religion. You are defending religious apartheid.

    • lyn117 on October 5, 2015, 11:28 pm

      “Jewish state” says it all. Israel bans most of its native people from living there because they aren’t Jewish. Others aren’t allowed the right to life and may be murdered at will, simply because they aren’t Jewish. You have a rather twisted idea of freedom and equality, when you support banning people from their own homes and land and taking their property because it’s a “Jewish state”.

      On top of that, the Temple Mount isn’t even in Israel.

      • YoniFalic on October 7, 2015, 11:06 am

        The State of Israel should not exist. It is a product of 19th century style genocidal colonialism practiced in the 20th and 21st century. The State of Israel must be dismantled, and the racist genocidal invaders must be removed. Otherwise, international law has no meaning.

    • echinococcus on October 6, 2015, 12:52 am

      Religion my a$$, O Misnamed One. What f(*&^ capital? It’s a corpus separatum under the UNSC regime and the capital of all Palestine. You want a right of visit? You end all occupation so that the presence of Israeli citizens may become legal under certain conditions. Even by the ridiculously skewed UN rules. You want freedom of worship? You visit mosques and churches and synagogues as tourists make any praying you want in those that authorize you. Come back then.

      • jon s on October 7, 2015, 4:15 pm

        YoniFalic,
        There are over 8 million Israelis, many of them 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation born in Israel.
        Who are the “racist genocidal invaders” that should be “removed””
        Precisely how do you imagine removing them?

        It looks like you’re the one with the genocidal agenda.

      • Mooser on October 7, 2015, 4:30 pm

        “It looks like you’re the one with the genocidal agenda.”

        Uh, “Jon s” when you talk to Yoni Falic, do you know who you are talking to? Well, maybe you’d better find out.

        You are getting Tribal Unity all upset. Hasn’t she been through enough already?

        “There are over 8 million Israelis, many of them 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation born in Israel.”

        There are, I would assume, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations born of the people ethnically cleansed from the Palestine by the Zionists. Why you keeping them out?
        Look what do you intend to do, just keep flinging this stuff until we hopefully forget what actually happened?

      • echinococcus on October 7, 2015, 4:59 pm

        John S crying and BSing again.
        “Israelis” don’t mean anything. We are talking Herrenvolk non-Palestinian Zionist entity population. All those who are not documentably descended from Jewish Palestinians (inhabitants prior to the start of the Zionist invasion with intent to subvert the sovereignty, i.e. 1897 or 1917 at the latest), seem to be part of the invaders. Their immigration is illegal and their acceptability to Palestinian citizenship is subject to approval by a future state, especially if they personally were part of illegal immigration.
        No “genocide”. They can start by using their real citizenships and emigrating while the going is good. They can stay and become Palestinian citizens. They can stay and resist violently, like part of the French colonists in Algeria, with the same results.

      • amigo on October 7, 2015, 6:03 pm

        “Who are the “racist genocidal invaders” that should be “removed””
        Precisely how do you imagine removing them? – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/jerusalem-breaking-point/comment-page-1#comment-801196” Jon S

        That,s easy—BDS –1S , 1P ,1V.

        You will be the pied piper and they will follow you.No genocide needed.

      • YoniFalic on October 8, 2015, 7:40 am

        While my grandfather was a true-believer Zionist, my father not so much and made sure to have a 2nd passport/citizenship from which I benefited (תודה, אבא).

        My father made aliyah to the USA shortly after his father died. I left after participating in מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎ in 2009 although I consider the Arabic name more appropriate (مجزرة غزة‎).

        One cannot be a decent human being and an Israeli “Jew”. Most of the “Jewish” population is prepared to leave as this article points out.

        I put “Jew” in quotes because I reject the whole concept of secular or ethnic Jew. Are there secular or ethnic Catholics? There are some genuine religious Jews in Israel, but they totally reject the State of Israel. “דתי לאומי” is pure hypocrisy.

    • inbound39 on October 6, 2015, 1:08 am

      Just to play the Devil’s advocate here I cannot see Muslim Arabs being allowed to pray in a Synagogue. Somehow I cannot see that ending well. Israel has laid claim to every Arab Holy place in Israel and destroyed over 450 Villages with Mosques included and banned the Arabs from returning. Israel imposes restrictions on pray at Al Aqsa and Israeli’s do not respect their own Rabbi’s who tell them praying at the Mount is not allowed. Israel signed a Peace agreement with Jordan and part of that covered religious access and control of Al Aqsa. Israel signed that agreement ,or maybe it is just another agreement Israel fails to keepas often as the wind changes. That agreement can sit in the draw bulging with ALL the other agreements Israel signed and failed to keep.Israel is failing also to abide by the conditions of Resolution 181 WHICH IT ALSO SIGNED AND AGREED TO ABIDE BY…BORDERS INCLUDED.

      • MHughes976 on October 6, 2015, 3:23 pm

        There is no obligation for synagogues or mosques to make their premises available for the ceremonies of the Church of England, though if I were visiting a synagogue or mosque I could without doing wrong pray in my heart. There are rights of private property.

      • jon s on October 8, 2015, 2:40 am

        In my opinion the comments of YoniFalic and echinococcus fall under the definition of Hate Speech.
        Imagine a commenter here advocating the “removal” of the Palestinians.

      • annie on October 8, 2015, 4:19 am

        jon, please don’t use quotemarks here unless you’re quoting someone (for a number of reasons, one being it makes it easier to locate the comment on a words search). lots of what gets posted here isn’t pleasant. but we’ve published zionists saying palestinians should move to jordan. it’s allowed. it’s interesting you find ideas that replicate actual policies of zionist colonialists to be tantamount to hate speech. like this:

        their acceptability to Palestinian citizenship is subject to approval by a future state

        i suppose you’ve considered if zionists policy didn’t demand and execute a process of removal the so called ‘jewish state’ wouldn’t exist today. but discussing a similar concept regarding jewish immigrants is hate speech. we try to be fair. again, lots of troublesome ideas get posted here.

      • RoHa on October 8, 2015, 3:04 am

        I just checked the comments policy I can’t see anything banning hate speech.

        I do see that something called “profanity” is forbidden, but I’m buggered if I know what they mean by that.

      • echinococcus on October 8, 2015, 3:05 am

        John S,

        I can’t believe that you, such a nice person who was even moved to shed a tear once for one of the victims of Zionism, are a hysterical liar and a provocateur; say it ain’t so! No, no, you must be pretending.

        You just read my specs for what you (not I) call removal:

        No “genocide”. They can start by using their real citizenships and emigrating while the going is good. They can stay and become Palestinian citizens. They can stay and resist violently, like part of the French colonists in Algeria, with the same results.

        Very reasonable, I say. It applies to you, too. I hope you’ve kept that old US passport.

      • RoHa on October 8, 2015, 6:23 am

        What happened to my full stop?

      • YoniFalic on October 8, 2015, 7:45 am

        I hate the State of Israel and those that cling to Zionist ideology just as I hate the Third Reich and those that cling to Nazi ideology.

        I feel dirty that I ever considered myself an Israeli.

        The invader population must be removed because after-Auschwitz no one should be able to benefit from genocide and because there must be no laches or statute of limitations on post-Auschwitz genocide.

        Otherwise, perpetrators of genocide get away with their crime simply by stalling the operation of International Law. In any case, the genocide of 47-8 never stopped. It continues right before our eyes, and I really believe that Netanyahu should be arrested, tried before an international Nuremberg-style tribunal, convicted, and hanged like the criminal German Nazi leaders before him.

      • Marnie on October 9, 2015, 12:40 am

        “Amigo, I do comment occasionally , from the Left, on ynet, in Hebrew. After today’s holiday is over , I assume that I’ll have a lot less time to comment here or anywhere. So you won’t have to endure my tiresome tedious and pathetic comments. You can cheer up.”

        That was from October 5. Gee, more empty promises.

    • bryan on October 6, 2015, 3:05 am

      Wonderful – the magic words “FREEDOM AND EQUALITY” – a warm welcome to a fellow advocate of freedom for Gaza, freedom from checkpoints and pass-laws, freedom from arbitrary arrest, freedom from arbitrary assassination (of politicians and mere demonstrators), freedom from arbitrary house demolition, freedom from land confiscation, and best of all equality before the law, and equality in the right to vote, and equality in the court system, and equality in social funding, and equality in municipal planning laws, and equality in the right of movement and to peacefully demonstrate, and live your life free from a brutal occupation. So please Palikari keep shouting those words loud and clear: “FREEDOM AND EQUALITY” (without the inevitable qualifier: FOR JEWS ONLY). Or are you just a Racist Scumbag!?

      • jon s on October 9, 2015, 3:12 pm

        Annie,
        YoniFalic has called repeatedly for the “invader population ” (=the Jews of Israel ) to be “removed”. I wrote that his comments constitute Hate Speech, so he obliged me, and in his very next comment expressed his hatred, even comparing Israel to Nazi Germany.

        Don’t misunderstand me: I’m not urging the moderators and editors to censor or ban anyone.
        Comments like that simply illustrate the fact that for the extremists the issue is not the occupation or the settlements, it’s israel’s very existence, in any borders. It’s part of what those of us working for Israeli-Palestinian peace are up against.

      • Mooser on October 9, 2015, 3:29 pm

        Annie, just so we are all clear, and nobody can escape responsibility, I want to make it clear what “Yoni Falic’s” ‘extremism’ consists of:

        He grew up in Israel, and when he saw what the situation was, left, for many reasons including the well-being of his family.

        And is willing to talk about it. And tell the truth about it, as best he can.

        I’ll leave it to Yoni to say whether that’s a fair description.

      • Mooser on October 9, 2015, 3:32 pm

        “Don’t misunderstand me: I’m not urging the moderators and editors to censor or ban anyone.”

        Brrrrr! I feel a chill, and all the trees are waving around….Oh, of course, it’s the sigh of relief from Mondo Tower’s Penthouse Moderation Suite!

      • eljay on October 9, 2015, 3:56 pm

        || jon s: … YoniFalic has called repeatedly for the “invader population ” (=the Jews of Israel ) to be “removed”. … ||

        I searched YoniFalic’s archive and could not find a single instance where he suggests that all “Jews of Israel” have to be removed. Since you don’t “deliberately lie”, could you please provide a direct quote? Thanks.

      • Mooser on October 9, 2015, 6:55 pm

        “It’s part of what those of us working for Israeli-Palestinian peace are up against.”Jon s

        Those of us working for Israel-Palestinian peace” You work for “peace” by living in an illegal settlement?.
        And you haven’t even got the simple patriotism it takes to renounce your US citizenship and become a real Israeli.

      • RoHa on October 9, 2015, 7:09 pm

        “Even comparing Israel to Nazi Germany”

        If the comparison is apt, does it still constitute hate speech?

        If it is not apt, why not show that?

        “those of us working for Israeli-Palestinian peace”

        It would be easy for you to do more for peace than I do, but, although I see a few fine (well, semi-fine , fine-ish) words from you, I don’t recall any indication of parsnips, let alone butter. What do you actually do for peace, aside from peddle tosh about “homelands”?

      • YoniFalic on October 13, 2015, 4:32 am

        @jon s, @annie, Where did I directly compare the State of Israel with Nazi Germany. I just went through my 66 comments. @jon s is just the usual Zionist liar. In Israel the invader population is not so much Zionist as imbued with the pervasive settler invader belief system. Only the cretins that come from the USA or from elsewhere outside of Israel and then buy a cheap house in a settlement on stolen property worry about this particular discussion. If I gave Ayelet Shaked (or my sister) a list of basic German Nazi ideas with the substitution of Jew for Aryan, she would have no problem with any of them.

        In general, my comments speak for themselves, but I can add the following.

        As for the genocidal invader population, which continues to commit genocide right before our eyes, they come under the International Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide — specifically Articles II, III, and IV.

        Article IV states the following but leaves defining the actual punishment to the tribunal.

        Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

        Removing the group committing genocide seems to be the quickest most direct way to provide relief to the victimized native population as well as the most minimal punishment.

        When the day of judgement comes for the genocidal invader state, I assume that the actual punishment and gradations thereof will be a matter for negotiation between the tribunal and the victimized native population.

      • Kris on October 13, 2015, 9:52 am

        @jon s: “Comments like that simply illustrate the fact that for the extremists the issue is not the occupation or the settlements, it’s israel’s very existence, in any borders. It’s part of what those of us working for Israeli-Palestinian peace are up against.”

        You don’t think that Zionist Jews are an “invader population,” but actually, they are.

        You don’t think that the invaders should be removed, because you think that Jewish thieves have a special dispensation to keep what they can manage to steal. They don’t.

        Just off the top of my head, I can think of ways that Israel is like Nazi Germany: racist, fascist, invading other people’s land and moving colonialists onto it, pogroms, racial incitement, race-based laws, horrifying cruelty towards defenseless civilians, sophisticated propaganda systems. That’s only a start. And, as in Nazi Germany, all of this wrapped up in pseudo-religious rationales.

        You are right, Israel the Zionist entity shouldn’t exist at all, another way it’s like Nazi Germany. And Nazi Germany is gone, which should give us all some hope.

    • Boo on October 6, 2015, 10:31 am

      “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.”

      — Matthew 5:23-24 (from The Sermon on the Mount)

      • jon s on October 9, 2015, 3:38 pm

        I also asked yonifalic who are the invaders who should be removed and how he imagines doing it. He hasn’t answered, so I’ll give it a try:
        First, you’ll need to sort out your definitions , who qualifies as “invaders” ? For example: what about a person who can prove that two of his grandparents lived in Palestine before Zionism? In other words: what do you do about “half-invaders” ? And where are the “invaders” supposed to go to? Back to where the “invaders” came from? But what if one grandparent came from Yemen, one from Tunisia, one from Romania and one from a death camp in Poland?
        So you’ll need some kind of selection procedure.
        This is how it can be done: the Jews (aka “invaders”) can be assembled on the platforms near the railroad tracks. They’ll stand in line and approach an officer – a gentleman like YoniFalic or eechinococcus – who will ask a few brief questions and then render a decision, indicating “right” (you can stay) or ” left” (you have to go) with a flick of his finger. It may be tedious, but it should work, based on previous experience.

      • diasp0ra on October 9, 2015, 4:25 pm

        @Jon S

        Yaaaaaaaawn.

        Are you done with your Holocaust analogy scare mongering? I dozed off a bit.

      • Mooser on October 9, 2015, 6:59 pm

        “This is how it can be done: the Jews (aka “invaders”) can be assembled on the platforms near the railroad tracks.”

        Yup, that’s what happens when you make lists of Jews, like Israel does. You Zionists are the ones who are so interested in who is a Jew and who isn’t entitled to that honorific!

      • Mooser on October 9, 2015, 7:02 pm

        “For example: what about a person who can prove that two of his grandparents lived in Palestine before Zionism?”

        But won’t renounce his US citizen, and throw away his US visa home? Not much, just another pretender. Besides, who says they are telling the truth? Nod-nod, wink-wink.
        And you were born in Hartford, Conn. to an American Mother. It’s in your archive.

      • eljay on October 9, 2015, 11:08 pm

        || jon s @ October 9, 2015, 3:38 pm ||

        1. Why worry about invaders being removed? You’ve made it very clear that justice, accountability and equality don’t matter – all that matters is “peace”.

        2. Surely you don’t object to others doing unto invaders acts of injustice and immorality that invaders have been doing unto others with impunity for decades?

        || jon s: … They’ll stand in line and approach an officer … who will ask a few brief questions and then render a decision, indicating “right” (you can stay) or ” left” (you have to go) with a flick of his finger. … ||

        Sounds a lot more humane than the way Zio-supremacists have been treating Palestinians for almost 70 years.

      • bryan on October 10, 2015, 7:11 am

        jon s – let me offer another suggestion – so far America has been exporting nasty, violent, fundamentalists to the West Bank. Perhaps it could enter the import business, and Obama could visit Tel Aviv, distributing green cards, and inviting the gay and fun-loving folks to make aliyah to the US, where the many obvious benefits are the availability of civil and same-sex marriage, the presence of an Israeli-trained police forces, pro-Israeli politicians and the absence of any criticism of Israelis within the media. Not only is it an exceptionally Israeli-friendly environment, but there are very few of those hateful Palestinians and Arabs and they are kept well under control. If enough of the hard-working tax-paying Israelis were to make their homeland with their fellow religionists in the USA then the heavily subsidised settlement project would fail and peace and tranquility would break out in historic Palestine.

      • jon s on October 10, 2015, 12:49 pm

        eljay,
        I think that you should direct your question to Yonifalic, so he could clarify who are the “invaders” who should be removed? All Israeli Jews? Almost all? Some?

      • Mooser on October 10, 2015, 1:52 pm

        “I think that you should direct your question to Yonifalic, so he could clarify who are the “invaders” who should be removed? All Israeli Jews? Almost all? Some?”

        Well, gee, “Jon s” how’s about we start with foreign citizens living illegally in Israeli-occupied territory??? Everybody, that is everybody on the Classic Israeli Left, agrees that they will have to go, right?

        Certainly, as a “left” Israeli you agree with that, the illegal settlers have to go, right? Wouldn’t that be a darn good start towards, uh “dialogue”?

        BTW, “Jon s”, you are doing a very good imitation of a guy who is frightened out of his wits by Mr. Falic.

      • catalan on October 10, 2015, 2:13 pm

        “Well, gee, “Jon s” how’s about we start with foreign citizens living illegally in Israeli-occupied territory??? Everybody, that is everybody on the Classic Israeli Left, agrees that they will have to go, right? – ” Mooser
        Well, some of you guys believe that Beersheba, Yaffa and all towns beyond the Partition Line are illegal. Others say, just beyond the green line of 1967. Then there is the group like Echinococcus and Hamas that says all Israelis anywhere in the Mandate territories are illegal.
        If I were an Israeli, I would wait till you guys sort out what the final goal is. Otherwise any retreat would simply lead to demands for more, and that’s not very rational either.

      • diasp0ra on October 10, 2015, 2:36 pm

        @Catalan

        “If I were an Israeli, I would wait till you guys sort out what the final goal is”

        Oh, I see. So it’s our fault for Settlers squatting in the West Bank too. With this kind of mental gymnastics, I’m not surprised the settlement movement is so strong.

        International law and human rights be damned! it’s the occupied people’s fault that Israelis are not withdrawing from illegally acquired territory against international law!

      • catalan on October 10, 2015, 2:55 pm

        “So it’s our fault for Settlers squatting in the West Bank too – ”
        Who am I to assign fault? I am just confused about international law – some use it to say that Israelis in Beersheba are illegal, others – only those in the West Bank. I am concerned that whatever is conceded, you will have Mooser, talknic, eljay say – not enough – we want Beersheba; and then if Beersheba is given away, echinococcus will say – now Tel Aviv. Israel would not be smart to give up anything until the demands on it get cleared up.

      • Mooser on October 10, 2015, 3:18 pm

        “Israel would not be smart to give up anything until the demands on it get cleared up.”

        After all, it’s no skin off your nose, “catalan” you are safe in the USA, why not encourage Israel to more intransigence?
        So you, from the USA, encourage an Israeli intransigence you are unwilling to assist? That’s brave, not.

        How are you helping Israel to hold those Occupied Territories, the heritage of the Jewish People? You are not! What have you done to help Israel hold on to Jerusalem? Nothing, I bet. You sentimental Zionists will be the death of the Zionist movement! Shame on you, living as a legal resident, or even citizen, of the US! Why aren’t you at a settlement?

      • just on October 10, 2015, 4:43 pm

        “Israel would not be smart to give up anything until the demands on it get cleared up.”

        Israel has stolen and destroyed Palestinian lives, resources, freedom, justice, crops, water, and land without any “demands” made on it!!!

        GIVE it back. It’s so disgusting to hear another potential squatter bray about and protect Israel and its decades- long and ongoing criminality with less than a care for the human lives genocided by the Occupiers.

        Give it back! Nobody had the right to give Palestine away to a bunch of foreigners and invaders. They still do not have the right to watch and contribute the genocide and do nothing to protect the Palestinians who live under the cruel and criminal Occupation forces and the thieving GoI!

        “… The time has come
        To say fair’s fair
        To pay the rent
        To pay our share

        The time has come
        A fact’s a fact
        It belongs to them
        Let’s give it back

        How can we dance when our earth is turning
        How do we sleep while our beds are burning…”

      • eljay on October 10, 2015, 7:03 pm

        || jon s: eljay,
        I think that you should direct your question to Yonifalic, so he could clarify who are the “invaders” who should be removed? All Israeli Jews? Almost all? Some? ||

        No, jon, the question is yours to answer. YoniFalic used the term “invader population” and you made the assertion that that term “(=the Jews of Israel )”. Do you have proof that he means all “the Jews of Israel” must be removed – if ‘yes’, please provide a link to a direct quote – or are you making stuff up?

      • eljay on October 10, 2015, 7:06 pm

        || catalan: … I am concerned that whatever is conceded, you will have Mooser, talknic, eljay say – not enough – we want Beersheba; and then if Beersheba is given away, echinococcus will say – now Tel Aviv. Israel would not be smart to give up anything until the demands on it get cleared up. ||

        Israel would be unjust and immoral to keep everything it has stolen, occupied and colonized in order to bargain down to being able to keep only most of what it has stolen, occupied and colonized.

        Start at Partition borders – the borders assigned to and accepted by Israel – and negotiate forward from there.

      • Sibiriak on October 10, 2015, 10:17 pm

        catalan: If I were an Israeli, I would wait till you guys sort out what the final goal is.
        —————————

        I agree wholeheartedly. Israel needs to “wait” (read: relentlessly pursue increased settlement/land grabs) while Mooser, talknic, eljay, echinococcus, et al. sort out their negotiating position.

        Mooser in particular is hard for Israelis to decipher– his often contradictory demands being immersed in humorous language full of clever word play, ingenious parody, and complexifying irony, bursting out in insistent, dancing Yiddishish rhythms rather alien to Hebrew speakers.

      • RoHa on October 10, 2015, 11:14 pm

        If someone else provides the beer and snacks, I’m prepared to negotiate with Mooser, talknic, eljay, echinococcus, et al., on most of the issues. But not on comma usage. I won’t budge on that. And al is particularly careless with his commas.

      • Mooser on October 11, 2015, 11:54 am

        “Mooser in particular is hard for Israelis to decipher– his often contradictory demands being immersed in humorous language full of clever word play, ingenious parody, and complexifying irony, bursting out in insistent, dancing Yiddishish rhythms rather alien to Hebrew speakers.

        And that is when my testosterone is low! Just wait till all these T-boosters take effect. Plus, I’m eating ‘ocean vegetables’. Especially the blue ones.

    • ziusudra on October 6, 2015, 10:44 am

      Greetings Palikari,
      ….The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place…..

      There isn’t one shred of archeological or literary evidence that a Temple ever existed there on that Mount.
      At any rate, this site was abandeded from 70AD to 681AD, where were the Shem Semites of these times that they didn’t build a 3rd Temple?
      2 Temples were said to have been built, but W H E R E ???
      Kings Saul, David and Solomon worshipped Polytheism of the Canaanite Version. King Solomon builds a Temple in 957BC. All Semites in Peleset worshipped the Canaanite Version of the Sumerian Religion, hence King Solomon built a Canaanite Temple, as Yahweh is the son of El; a Canaanite Deity!!!
      ziusudra
      PS MW, you allow biblical history to be quipped, accept my opinion also w/o proof!

      • RoHa on October 6, 2015, 7:43 pm

        “There isn’t one shred of archeological or literary evidence that a Temple ever existed there on that Mount. ”

        Not even a few casescues from around the pediment?

      • jon s on October 10, 2015, 12:59 pm

        RoHa,
        You asked what I do for peace. I’m not a politician, thank God, and I don’t claim to be a leader.
        I’ve been active on the Israeli Left for many years, and have been active in various organizations. I also do what I can in my professional field of education.
        Allow me a question for you: what do you think about Yonifalic’s idea of “removing” the Israeli “invaders”?

      • Mooser on October 10, 2015, 1:28 pm

        Shorter “Jon s”: ‘I personally claim to be a nice guy. Isn’t that enough?’

      • Mooser on October 10, 2015, 2:02 pm

        “I’m not a politician, thank God, and I don’t claim to be a leader.”

        Yes, he’s just your average ordinary freebooter, filibusterer, and settler.

      • RoHa on October 10, 2015, 8:14 pm

        If you really want to work for peace in your teaching, stop teaching all that tosh about “peoples” and “homeland”. (Or is that required by Israeli law? ) Teach what really happened, and work for reconciliation so that Jews and Arabs can live as equals in a unified Democratic and Socialist People’s Republic of the Holy Land.

        I’ll let Yonifalic defend his own ideas. My position is that everyone born in Palestine, and every immigrant who has established permanent residence there, has a prima facie moral right to live there. Foreign Jews have no moral rights to the place.

      • Sibiriak on October 11, 2015, 3:18 am

        ziusudra: Greetings Palikari, ….The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place…..

        There isn’t one shred of archeological or literary evidence that a Temple ever existed there on that Mount.
        —————————–

        Holiness derives from faith, not facts.

      • Sibiriak on October 11, 2015, 4:16 am

        jon s: what do you think about Yonifalic’s idea of “removing” the Israeli “invaders”?
        —————–

        It’s a call for ethnic cleansing.

        [“Invaders” per Yonifalic Oct. 7 11:54am= Eastern European Jews and descendants (?) that relocated to Palestine as part of Zionist colonization; or more precisely per echinococcus Oct. 7, 4:59 pm = “All those [Jews] who are not documentably descended from Jewish Palestinians (inhabitants prior to the start of the Zionist invasion with intent to subvert the sovereignty, i.e. 1897 or 1917 at the latest)”]

      • eljay on October 11, 2015, 9:13 am

        || Sibiriak: … It’s a call for ethnic cleansing.

        [“Invaders” per Yonifalic Oct. 7 11:54am= Eastern European Jews and descendants (?) that relocated to Palestine as part of Zionist colonization … ||

        In other words – and contrary to jon s’ assertion (“deliberate lie”?) – YoniFalic did not say that all “the Jews of Israel” must be removed. Thanks for the clarification.

        (FWIW, I disagree with YoniFalic’s position on the matter.)

      • echinococcus on October 11, 2015, 9:35 am

        Sibiriak,

        There is no “call for ethnic cleansing”. It is a definition of those individuals whose future Palestinian citizenship is not obvious, and should depend on a free decision by all Palestinians as represented by a generally and expressly designated body and in the absence of duress or occupation. Not being Palestinian I cannot presume to decide or recommend.
        If I become repetitious at times this is caused by the general attitude here of adjudicating what is exclusively up to the Palestinian people –the Partition, the future borders, the sharing of sovereignty, etc., all happily given away with no right to give away.

      • Mooser on October 11, 2015, 12:01 pm

        “If you really want to work for peace in your teaching, stop teaching all that tosh about “peoples” and “homeland”. (Or is that required by Israeli law? )”

        RoHa, please remember “Jon s” is a very studious man! Yes, there were several threads on the Israeli education system, which he studiously avoided.

    • zaid on October 6, 2015, 12:24 pm

      “The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place”

      Was but not anymore, you dont have infinite ownership of a place.
      Sorry but there were nothing there when the muslims built their mosque.

      • Xpat on October 6, 2015, 1:34 pm

        “The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place”

        Was but not anymore,

        Zaid,
        I agree with all the rest of your post but disagree on your opening argument.
        If Christianity wants to decide that Mecca is its holiest site, more power to them. If there is no claim to ownership or expectation that Islam vacate the premises.
        Throughout the ages Jewish tradition has tied Jewish feelings to the Temple Mount through many narratives. Many traditional Jews share those feelings but still have zero designs on the Haram el-Sharif.
        Even the Messianic dimension that defers the rebuilding of the Third Temple to a mythical time beyond history does necessarily using force to harm Islam’s shrine. It could be read as some miraculous unity of religions when it won’t matter whether the Golden Dome is a mosque or anything else.
        Let Jews venerate the Temple Mount. It is the extreme sanctity of the Temple Mount within Judaism that has kept almost all traditional Jews from even stepping foot there.

      • Mooser on October 6, 2015, 1:51 pm

        “It is the extreme sanctity of the Temple Mount within Judaism that has kept almost all traditional Jews from even stepping foot there.”

        Oh, please, please don’t throw us in the Briar Patch! Good thinking, Eliot! Unfortunately, too late for that now.

      • MHughes976 on October 6, 2015, 3:13 pm

        Places are made holy by the sentiments that arise in our minds concerning them. But it is very important that we cannot determine objective moral right, Ie rights to which everyone has the same relationship, by appeal to subjective sentiments which are exclusively ours. No amount of desire by me makes something mine.

      • Mooser on October 6, 2015, 4:02 pm

        “Places are made holy by the sentiments that arise in our minds concerning them.”

        Oh yes, that’s true! Why when Zionists look at Palestine the thoughts that “arise in our minds” is “This place is wholly! “Wholly, Wholly, Wholly mine!”

      • zaid on October 6, 2015, 7:12 pm

        Move on Elliot, Go build a temple somewhere else and worship your god there.

        I dont understand why Jews (not all) consider any place they claim to once lived in or even passed by as a sacred place which they hold infinite ownership of??

        That day i read an article by a Jew complaining that a 30 cm Hebrew inscription in Palmyra might be damaged by ISIS!!! and he wants it transferred to Israel!!

        No other nation in the world does that.

        A Lot of treasures from Egypt and Mesopotamia lays in European museums .and all the historic Mosques of Spain are now churches and all the historic churches in Constantinople are now Moques.

        you will not see people demanding the right to transfer ownership or to restore it to the original form. you will not see Muslims provoking and harassing christian worshipers in the Cathedral of Cordoba (former Great Mosque of Cordoba).And you wont see Christians demanding the right to Pray in Hagia Sophia.

        Only Jews (not all) Have Such Weird Demands and Obsessive attachment to their past….You know this is not normal dont you?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque%E2%80%93Cathedral_of_C%C3%B3rdoba
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

        The case of Al Haram Alsharif is even more clear since the current buildings are built by Muslims for Muslims and again i repeat : when the Muslims came there were nothing there.

        Move on Elliot, stop worshiping the past.

        for god sake and Jews sake go build your temple somewhere else and Leave us alone.

        leave our holy sites, you took enough of our land and past, and caused enough damage to the Palestinians nation……at some point you have to stop.

        Enough.

        Leave our holy cites alone. the Haram Alsharif is a Red line for all Palestinians (even Atheist Palestinians) and Yes, rivers of blood will flow because of this issue(Lets hope not).

      • Jon66 on October 6, 2015, 9:00 pm

        Zaid,

        I understand what your saying, but it isn’t only some Jews who have this view.

        From the Hamas Charter
        “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?”

      • tokyobk on October 7, 2015, 12:21 am

        Zaid I do understand your frustrations but in fact
        There are still groups within Christianity an Islam claiming old churches now mosques and mosques now churches. In India there is constant violence over temples that wee mosques and reverse. The Caliphate movement does claim Spain too. You can google any of this.
        That said, if the goal is to give Jews free and safe access to the comparatively few sites that are considered holy, it’s not working out so well.

      • zaid on October 7, 2015, 12:24 am

        john66

        Hamas is wrong.

        Now your turn?

      • zaid on October 7, 2015, 12:32 am

        Tokyobok

        You gave examples of Freaks and fundamentalist lunatics.

        The fact that you are comparing your demand to the demand of groups like ISIS and Hizb Tahrir (caliphate) says alot about your position.

        what i said about obsessed Jews applies at obsessed muslims and Hindus.

        Give an example of a muslim king or president who would demand such a thing and not some fringe groups and lunatics.

        No serious muslim or christian would give such demand of Spain or Anatolia, unfortunately i cannot say the same about Jews (not all).

      • echinococcus on October 7, 2015, 1:07 am

        And you wont see Christians demanding the right to Pray in Hagia Sophia.

        Well, there are such. Chanting in Hagia Sophia. One guy staging masses in a number of old churches, now effectively mosques, with official authorization. Big crowds flocking for holiday mass to abandoned/formerly off-limits holy monasteries and churches in Trapezus, Ani, Chalke, Amida. All this and more, courtesy of the Big Bad Isslamisst, Moslem-Brother Intolerant government of Erdogan. I went to a couple of these. The Grand Chacham was present, too, enjoying himself.
        Impossible in the Zionist entity, though.

      • Xpat on October 7, 2015, 5:46 am

        Zaid,
        I have no quarrel with your anger at the current outburst of violence that Israel encouraged and enacts. Israel has learned nothing from Ariel Sharon’s foray on to the Temple Mount or Netanyahu’s tunnel. Here we go again, with the grimly predictable violent consequence. Unless of course, that’s the point.
        Why, in your mind, are Muslims who want a caliphate in Spain are freaks but the Jewish nutsos who plans a Third Temple on the Haram el-Sharif are representative of (most, not all) Jews.
        I personally don’t care for holy sites, including Judaism’s supposed holiest, the Western Wall. I see the Omar Mosque as a beautiful Muslim shrine.

        The worship of the past is not limited to Jews. Archaeological sites are secular shrines to westerners. Look at the world’s horrified response to Isis’ destruction in Palmyra (and the Taliban’s destruction of buddhist statues). That destruction of old stones captured the headlines more than many deaths. The Western Wall is really an archaeological site, unchanged in 2,000 years. In that case, worshipping the past trumps building something new on top of that. I imagine that the Muslim attachment to the Haram el-Sharif has something to do with its antiquity too.

      • annie on October 7, 2015, 7:29 am

        The Caliphate movement does claim Spain too.

        i think this is an apt comparison tokyobk. i’m glad you made it.

      • annie on October 7, 2015, 8:43 am

        and just for the record:

        I do understand your frustrations but in fact, There are still groups within Christianity an Islam claiming old churches now mosques and mosques now churches.

        regarding your “but in fact” could you please list the ground forces (besides zionist regime forces) currently accompanying and supporting freaks trying to impose themselves on christian/islamic functioning places of worship.

        or do you agree with zaid’s perspective — that your examples are of “Freaks and fundamentalist lunatics.”

      • Jon66 on October 7, 2015, 7:44 am

        Zaid,

        I don’t disagree that it would be crazy for Israel to take the Temple Mount.

        But, you said, “Only Jews (not all) Have Such Weird Demands and Obsessive attachment to their past….You know this is not normal dont you? ” I think we have all given examples that it is not only extremist Jews who hold this view.
        Hamas is the democratically elected government in Gaza. Are they “freaks and extremists”?

      • annie on October 7, 2015, 8:19 am

        what’s hamas got to do with “Obsessive attachment to their past”? the mosque is present. hamas has not intruded on christian places of worship in gaza.

      • Sibiriak on October 7, 2015, 7:54 am

        Elliot: Israel has learned nothing from Ariel Sharon’s foray on to the Temple Mount….
        ——————-

        On the contrary, Israel learned how to provoke an intifada to justify a protracted, bloody military “response”, shock the Jewish populace into ever more violent spasms of jingoism and racism, add massive fuel to the unending campaign of Palestinian demonization, and pour another decade’s worth of formaldehyde onto the corpse of the “peace process.”

      • annie on October 7, 2015, 8:12 am

        Sibiriak, bingo

      • eljay on October 7, 2015, 8:23 am

        || Elliot: … Israel has learned nothing … Here we go again, with the grimly predictable violent consequence. Unless of course, that’s the point. … ||

        It certainly does seem to be the point. Provoke a violent response and suddenly you have all the justification in the world to undertake drastic “security” measures. The shields of Jews, Jewish, “Jewish State”, anti-Semitism and the Holocaust are well-worn (to the point of abuse), but they still offer protection (at least in the Western world, where words such as Middle East, Arabs and Muslims are disturbing to people).

      • Bumblebye on October 7, 2015, 8:50 am

        @Jon666
        No, Hamas is not the “democratically elected government”.
        Their mandate ran out a few *years* ago, since when circumstances – the kind caused by Israel – have not permitted new elections.

      • Jon66 on October 7, 2015, 8:59 am

        Annie,

        Zaid said, “Only Jews (not all) Have Such Weird Demands and Obsessive attachment to their past….You know this is not normal dont you?”

        My point is that the statement is untrue. His response to the fact that there are other religions who have similar fringes was, “You gave examples of Freaks and fundamentalist lunatics. ”

        My response is that Hamas for example shares the same attachment to the past and they are not a small private group, but rather the elected government.

        I agree that trying to take the Temple Mount would be nuts, but I do object to the idea that only Jews have extremists.

      • annie on October 7, 2015, 9:33 am

        thanks jon, but i understood what you said the first time, so you don’t have to repeat yourself. could you answer my questions please.

        specifically:

        what’s hamas got to do with “Obsessive attachment to their past”?

        iow, not necessary to repeat that you think hamas is obsessively attachment to their past, just say why or how, as in:

        gee annie, i think their obsessively attached to their past because…. (fill in blank)

        also, you could offer a rebuttal to my other comments the mosque is present. hamas has not intruded on christian places of worship in gaza.

        thanks

        I do object to the idea that only Jews have extremists.

        okay, can you give us another example of a governing body militarily supporting those extremists to take over the holy sites of others? besides ISIS, if you could call it a governing body.

        also, even the nyt reported wanting to take over the mosque has gone mainstream in israel. so technically this is no longer fringe once it’s mainstream. the word fringe means outlier. once the state is supporting a movement it’s not, by definition, fringe. compared to other western countries tho israel is very very fringe.

        extremism is normal in israel, embedded in the “jewish state” system/gov. it’s an apartheid state after all.

      • Xpat on October 7, 2015, 8:59 am

        @Sibiriak,
        If you look through to the end of the snippet you took from my post, you will see that you actually agree with me.

      • Jon66 on October 7, 2015, 10:53 am

        Annie,

        Sorry I was trying not to be redundant. Hamas is obsessed with the past because they claim that the Islamic conquest of Palestine gives Islamic title to ALL of the land in perpetuity.

        Here is Article 11 from the Hamas Covenant:
        “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

        This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

        It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Moslems, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land – whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Moslems, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void. ”

        With regard to obsession, I believe we are speaking of different things. I did not claim that Hamas was taking over churches, but rather that they are committed to freezing the religious ownership of the land at the high water mark of Islamic conquest.

        I haven’t made any claims as to military support of extremists or taking over holy sites in other religions although one example would be the Babri Masjid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_of_the_Babri_Masjid

        I have stated that Jews are not the only people who have some within their religion who are obsessed with the past. Jews are not exceptional in this.

      • zaid on October 7, 2015, 1:14 pm

        Jon 66, Elliot.

        Why do you respond to my arguments by saying Hamsa said this and Hamas did that…….that’s a weak respond.

        If you both agree that the Jewish demands in Al Aqsa are extreme and obsessive then the discussion is over….we agree.

        What Hamas believe is irrelevant , Hamas did not exist before 1987 and it wont exist in the future.

        (Although Hamas didnt say they would destroy churches).

        Hamas is the Islamic Brotherhood in Palestine (IKHWAN), and the Ikhwan ruled several muslim countries and they never destroyed a single church.

        Erdogan——-Ekhwan
        Morsi Egypt——Ekhwan
        Nahda Tunis——Ekhwan
        Mororocco adala—–Ekhwan

      • echinococcus on October 7, 2015, 1:35 pm

        jon66

        All that wheedling and whining, Hamas this, Hamas that…
        They are at home. You guys ain’t.
        As members of the Moslem Brotherhood, they show an irritating amount of tolerance to all religions and everything religious. They don’t tolerate armed invaders, whom you seem to love. Nothing to do with religion at all, so please stop invoking it.

      • Jon66 on October 7, 2015, 9:28 pm

        Echi,
        I don’t think you have understood my point. Perhaps I wasn’t clear. To paraphrase Zaid, he stated that only Jews have such obsessions with the past. I disagree and believe that many religions do. If I had simply stated this, I think someone here would have asked me for evidence. So I provided relevant backup from a party in the same geographic region., Hamas. I’m not stuck on Hamas, but I do believe that it is not only Jews who reference the past with such regard. I’m unclear why you have a problem with the statement. Do you believe that these feelings are unique to Jews? If you prick us do we not bleed?

      • YoniFalic on October 8, 2015, 9:34 am

        It has probably been mentioned previously that Judaic sages in Judea and in Galilee were extremely uninterested in rebuilding the Jerusalem Temple when Julian the Apostate offered them permission. A Temple in Jerusalem would have undercut the authority of the sages.

      • Mooser on October 10, 2015, 1:32 pm

        I think Annie may be, don’t be shocked, Godzilla! Look what happened in this thread; she asked one question, and crushed Tokyo. Wasn’t heard from again.

      • jon s on October 11, 2015, 3:59 pm

        eljay,
        I never claimed that Yonifalic said “all”. I did repeatedly ask him to clarify who are the “invaders ” to be “removed”, and how.

      • Mooser on October 11, 2015, 4:06 pm

        “I never claimed that Yonifalic said “all”.”

        Cut the crap, “Jons”, what you are doing is looking for a reason to stop interacting with him by declaring him “genocidal” or whatever.
        You have a real had time dealing with Jews that have lived in Israel and see it for what it is.

        Do you think Yoni is lying about the Israel he saw, and lived in? Is Marnie lying?

      • eljay on October 11, 2015, 6:48 pm

        || jon s: eljay,
        I never claimed that Yonifalic said “all”. … ||

        Yes, you did, when you wrote: ” … YoniFalic has called repeatedly for the “invader population ” (=the Jews of Israel ) to be “removed”. … ”

        You claim that you weren’t sure what he meant by his term, and yet you wasted no time conflating his term with a collective term (“the Jews of Israel”) of your own that encompasses all “the Jews of Israel”, and not merely:
        – “some of the Jews of Israel”; or
        – “most of the Jews of Israel”; or
        – “a specific subset of the Jews of Israel”.

        So, I’ll ask again: Do you have proof that YoniFalic has called repeatedly for all “the Jews of Israel” to be removed?
        – If ‘yes’, please provide a link to a direct quote.
        – If ‘no’, retract your assertion.

        And please learn how to post a reply in the same string within a thread in which the post you’re replying to is located. Thanks.

    • eljay on October 6, 2015, 1:41 pm

      || Palikari: The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place. Jews have right to visit and pray, but we are not allowed to, in the Jewish capital of the Jewish state. … ||

      Jerusalem is neither the capital nor the “Jewish capital” (whatever that is) of Israel. Unfortunately, Israel is a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

      But I agree that Jews – and Muslims and Christians – should be permitted respectfully to visit and to pray in the Free City of Jerusalem.

      || … I am just saying that it should be opened for ALL religions. This is called FREEDOM and EQUALITY. … ||

      Says the Zio-supremacist who, just a moment earlier, referred to occupied Jerusalem as a “Jewish capital”.

      He’s funny…like a clown.

      • Xpat on October 7, 2015, 7:48 pm

        Zaid,
        You have twice attributed opinions and words to me that are not mine.
        You reduce religious feeling to malicious intent and you tar “most, but not all” Jews with the same brush. Let’s not slide down that slope.
        We basically agree. We are allies, not enemies.

      • jon s on October 12, 2015, 3:36 pm

        eljay,
        Starting from the bottom, it would be nice if there was a reply button beneath every comment.
        No, I’m not sure that Yonifalic wants to “remove” all of us, or most of us or some of us. That’s why I repeatedly asked him to clarify. It looks like , in any case, we’re talking about millions.

      • eljay on October 12, 2015, 4:03 pm

        || jon s: eljay,
        Starting from the bottom, it would be nice if there was a reply button beneath every comment. … ||

        I agree that sometimes a little extra effort is required.

        || … No, I’m not sure that Yonifalic wants to “remove” all of us, or most of us or some of us. That’s why I repeatedly asked him to clarify. … ||

        Okay. You didn’t know what YoniFalic meant by “invader population”, but you deliberately – and dishonestly – chose to imply that that term meant all “the Jews of Israel”. Fair enough.

      • Mooser on October 12, 2015, 7:31 pm

        “That’s why I repeatedly asked him to clarify. It looks like , in any case, we’re talking about millions.”

        And the Zionists wanted the entire Jewish population of the world handed to them to stuff into Palestine and kick the Palestinians out!!! But you didn’t get it, and were reduced to begging individual Jews to come. Well, pal, you play on that level, you lose on that level. Too bad.
        Why don’t you put your kids out in front of you as human shields, “Jons”, that might work?

        But what’s with you and “Yoni Falic”? You have a real hard time with commenters who have lived or live in Israel and are willing to tell the plain truth about it. What’s your plan to shut them up “Jon s”? Gonna get them banned by ‘proving’ they support genocide?

    • Mooser on October 6, 2015, 1:57 pm

      “The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place. Jews have right to visit and pray, but we are not allowed to, in the Jewish capital of the Jewish state. This is outrageous.”

      You so funny. Palikari, you may not know this, but it will come as a relief to you to know that God hears our prayers no matter where we are. The reception isn’t any better in Jerusalem. It’s an all digital 1G network. Okay, it’s not quite as fast as the Christians 3G network, but it works fine from anywhere.

    • oldgeezer on October 6, 2015, 3:36 pm

      There is no Jewish right to pray there. It is not a part of Israel.

      How about you stop denying Palestinians their actual rights before dreaming up more fictional Jewish rights.

      • MHughes976 on October 6, 2015, 5:18 pm

        Whether or not in Israel places set aside for Jewish worship by their owners are the only places where public Jewish worship is a right. Whether or not in England the only places where Church of England worship is a right are places set aside for that purpose. I don’t have a right to take my Anglican prayer book and read aloud from it in a Baptist church, let alone a synagogue.

    • talknic on October 7, 2015, 12:54 am

      @ Palikari “The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place. Jews have right to visit and pray, but we are not allowed to”

      Strange. https://www.google.com/search?q=accompanied%20to%20temple%20mount%20by%20IDF

      ” in the Jewish capital of the Jewish state. This is outrageous.”

      The Jewish state is Israel, correct? Your disillusionment is outrageous. Jerusalem is not in Israel. http://wp.me/pDB7k-W8

      • Mooser on October 7, 2015, 12:12 pm

        “Jerusalem is not in Israel.”

        If Mondoweiss had an article consisting of just that headline, I wager it would engender the biggest epidemic of Zionist logorrhea ever. Just those five words.

      • catalan on October 7, 2015, 12:56 pm

        “biggest epidemic of Zionist logorrhea ever.” Mooser
        Zionists – your word – represent less than 5 percent of all comments on this forum. Most of their comments are censored and/or ridiculed. This occurs while members of this site are upset that the New York Times does not always publish their comments (irony, anyone?)
        You are older and wiser than me plus you are a member of the oft referred “civilized west”, not a peasant mountaineer from a “backward country”.
        So do tell, what does it say about human nature that 5 percent dissenting opinions upset us so? Nothing but a 100.2 percent solidarity would do? And then we speak of “progress”?

      • eljay on October 7, 2015, 1:31 pm

        || Mooser: … If Mondoweiss had an article consisting of just that headline, I wager it would engender the biggest epidemic of Zionist logorrhea ever. … ||

        Who can take a headline
        Rob it of its truth
        Even as it occupies
        And murders fleeing youth
        The “Jewish State” can, the “Jewish State” can…

      • Mooser on October 9, 2015, 3:11 pm

        “The Candy Man” Leslie Bricusse, Anthony Newley, 1971. I like that tune.

    • YoniFalic on October 7, 2015, 11:54 am

      Racist Eastern Europeans did not invade Palestine for religious reasons. The invasion of Palestine was an act of 19th century style genocidal colonialism.

      As I pointed out previously, my grandfather became a Zionist because he believed (1) that gentile antisemites were mostly correct about Jews, (2) that gentiles were becoming less tolerant of bad Jewish behavior, and (3) that Jews could only reform themselves if they had their own country — something that now seems completely untrue to me.

      If we assume that (3) was simply rationalization for the injustice that Zionists intended to commit against Palestinians and have committed to this day, my grandfather was just saying that not only were German, Polish, Belorussian, and Ukrainian peasants getting tired of Jewish exploitation and cheating, but the peasantries were also getting strong enough to do something about Jewish misbehavior, and the gentile elites that in the past had protected their Jewish subcontractors no longer needed Jews and were unwilling to protect them.

      Thus Eastern European Jews, who wanted to maintain their standard of living and their traditional exploitative economic practices, had to relocate to a place where the local population would not be strong enough to stand up to Jewish rapaciousness. That place was Palestine, which also had intrinsic value as the Holy Land important to Christians throughout the world — the perfect real estate to steal.

      From the standpoint of greedy robbers, Palestine was just low hanging fruit at the end of the 19th and early 20th century. (My grandfather definitely believed that a Jew should get to keep anything stolen fair and square from a goy. So much for reforming Jews.)

      The Temple Mount and the Western Wall are just symbols of ethnic assertiveness of the invaders over the natives . In Jewish hands they serve as distractions from the crimes that E. European invaders committed against the natives.

      To tell the truth, if we look at the Talmud, which is scripture for Rabbinic Judaism, we find that the sages express a great deal of skepticism toward the holiness of the Jerusalem Temple.

      Just take a look at Yoma 69B.

      A priestly Temple elite would obviously undercut the authority of Talmudic sages or Rabbinical scholars.

      • Sibiriak on October 15, 2015, 7:25 am

        YoniFalic: … my grandfather became a Zionist because he believed (1) that gentile antisemites were mostly correct about Jews , (2) that gentiles were becoming less tolerant of bad Jewish behavior, and (3) that Jews could only reform themselvesif they had their own country… [emphasis added]

        ——————

        Your grandfather was spouting classic antisemitic themes, which is not at all surprising given the close family resemblance between Zionist and antisemitic ideology well-analyzed by many MW posters.

    • Keith on October 7, 2015, 11:55 am

      PAlIKARI- “The Temple Mount is Judaism’s holiest place.”

      Funny, for millennium pious Jews managed to live distant from their “holiest place” making no attempt to return. Suddenly, along comes Zionism and their atheist pioneers seeking religious symbolism and justification for their colonial project and behold how these atheists wrap themselves in the Torah and Talmud! Where did these atheists settle? Why, in Tel Aviv on the coast, of course. Jerusalem was a backwater until it became expedient to sanctify the attempts to expel the Palestinians who had lived there for the millennium. Suddenly, the Diaspora is disappeared while biblical “roots” are constructed. And this isn’t the first time that conquest and mass murder was justified by religious doctrine. All of this talk about religious freedom and equality is nothing but an obvious pretext for conquest and subjugation. Nothing new there except, perhaps, the extent of your hypocrisy.

      • inbound39 on October 9, 2015, 12:41 pm

        Precisely Keith and we can add that when the Zionists agreed to Resolution 181 and declared their borders as per the Partition Plan they had no problem with Jerusalem not being under Israeli Sovereignty. As for their pretext for Conquest they conveniently forget that the Right of Conquest was abolished at the end of WW2 largely because of the huge volumes of dispossessed and stateless Jews that were created by the German Occupation of Europe. Yet we see and hear Zionists claiming Right of Conquest over ALL Palestine when they full well know that it is in violation of International Law. When that is decried and challenged they then claim God was a Real Estate Agent and gave Palestine to them knowing full well that under the UN Human Rights act no-one can impose their religious beliefs on another which is why International Law never has nor will it ever place preference of one religion over another….we would never have peace if that was the case. No claim to land in Palestine by Zionists is valid given that even the UN had no mandate to carve Palestine up.

      • Mooser on October 9, 2015, 3:05 pm
  6. Eva Smagacz on October 5, 2015, 9:47 pm

    One must be blind not to realise that there is a design in all this. Palestine free of Palestinians – the endgame of Zionism. The Axis of Evil ruse – the upheaval of entire Middle East that would allow further ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to take place in the ” fog of war” didn’t quite go according to plan – and the US making peace with Iran and Russia stepping into Syria – released the fury over unmet expectations.

    Pure Jewish State with no pollution from resident Arabs and other Gentiles – so tantalisingly close under Bush Junior – is now further away.

    So let the bloodletting begin……

    Netanyahu must provide bread and circuses to the crowds baying for blood.

    • MHughes976 on October 6, 2015, 3:33 pm

      I agree that further and drastic population transfer must be intended but I think that this time it will be necessary to have a consensual, compensatory element. It is essential to have a defensible claim to be non-Nazi and for this reason I do not think that a complete transfer can be desired. A museum-piece Palestinian remnant, possibly centred round a Museum of Palestine, will stay indefinitely – and be very visibly grateful.
      On the other side, now that the influence of the Bible increases daily, the possession of all the land from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates cannot be forgotten.

      • RoHa on October 6, 2015, 7:47 pm

        “A museum-piece Palestinian remnant, possibly centred round a Museum of Palestine, will stay indefinitely – and be very visibly grateful.”

        They could perform Palestinian folk-dances for tourists.

  7. oldgeezer on October 5, 2015, 10:10 pm

    In efforts to calm tensions jewish leaders call for the theft of more land and the annexation of area c.

    Predictable scum.

    • inbound39 on October 6, 2015, 1:10 am

      Consistently predictable scum unfortunately Old Geeezer…….maybe America will stop aid to Israel and cease protecting Israel from its criminal actions.

  8. Accentitude on October 6, 2015, 7:07 am

    “Life in Palestine is a life being pushed to breaking point. Because it is at those breaking points that Israel unleashes itself. When individuals are pushed beyond the line where their lives are worth living,”

    I came to Palestine several years ago to take the next step in working for human rights and to do what I can to help my people, after being born and raised in the United States to Palestinian refugees whom fled the 1967 War but remained involved in grassroots activism and advocacy in the United States. My parents were members of the Popular Front and they were always organizing and attending protests and sit-ins, and rallies. People like Azmi Bishara, Mustafa Barghouti, Edward Said, Mahmoud Darwish, Hanan Ashrawi…weren’t just people on TV or in the News. Often they were at my house sharing meals with my family and talking about the importance of Palestinian Nationalism and I was raised that way, to be proud of my identity, my culture and my heritage but those days are done for me.

    The continuing violence in the last several years and the constant frustration towards an ineffective and redundant Palestinian Authority, whom are nothing more than sub-contractors of the occupation, along with the repeated failures of each wave of “negotiations” sprinkled with settlement expansions, continued raids, shootings, etc…have made me decide that I’m done with this game.

    I got married here and I have two small baby boys and I have no desire at all to place them in danger or to raise them in a climate of perpetual war. We all want better things for our children and I want them to have a future, to have opportunities, to not worry about being shot by a sniper on the way home from school or to be mauled by dogs or beaten by soldiers after a game of football, or to be kidnapped form their beds in the middle of the night by a battalion of soldiers, blindfolded, beaten and tortured all alone in a jail cell somewhere in a settlement. That’s not the kind of life I want for them.

    Yesterday as I was driving home, I reached Al Bireh and saw about a hundred kids running away in front of me and soldiers chasing after them firing live rounds at them. I turned around and took the long way home. A 20 minute drive took me 2 hours. The entire time I was driving, my mind was pacing. What if Settlers blocked the road and attacked me? What if soldiers fired at my car? What if today is the day that I’m detained and placed in administrative detention? The smile my 9 month old baby gave me this morning might be the last one I get to see from him. Will “bye. Love you” be the last words I’ll have heard from my wife? What if I’m detained? Will the U.S. Consulate help me? I don’t remember their phone number.

    I don’t want to live like that. So I decided that I’m taking my wife and my children and I’m going back to the United States and I’m not going to work with non-profit organizations anymore, or get involved in activism, or talk about Palestine and Israel, a topic that seems to raise my blood pressure lately. If Palestinians want to call me a coward, so be it. If Israelis want to boast and say that they “won”, so be it. I’m not living for myself anymore. I’m living for my family and that’s the biggest motivation I have to do all that I can to survive and provide a safer better life far away from war.

    • RoHa on October 6, 2015, 8:33 am

      You have my sympathy. Given your background, I am sure it was not an easy decision to make.

      I will say that I think you have made the right call, but my view does not count for much. My son faces no checkpoints. No-one is shooting at me yet. I have no skin in the game.

      I wish you a safe return, and good fortune.

    • lyn117 on October 6, 2015, 8:47 am

      I’m sorry you’ve been ethnically cleansed.

    • Kay24 on October 6, 2015, 10:31 am

      So sad to hear your story. No one can blame you for wanting to leave it behind. I would do the same too, for my children’s sake. No one in the US seems to feel the Palestinian’s pain, nor do they act like they care. I hope you will find some peace here (I suggest to not watch the zionist owned media here, for your sanity) and realize there so much one can do. No Arab nation, no western democracy, no international body, nor the world’s greatest super power, cares that people have been in shackles, living in open prison, denied basic rights and freedom, are fighting for their lives over there. The world may dislike Israel, but no one does anything about it’s crimes.

      Good luck to you and your family.

    • eljay on October 6, 2015, 10:39 am

      || Accentitude @ October 6, 2015, 7:07 am ||

      Sounds like you’ve done your fair share of trying to make some part of this world a better place. My respect to you for that. Now it’s time to make a life with your family. Peace and best wishes to you.

    • Kris on October 6, 2015, 12:36 pm

      I am so sorry, Accentitude. My sincere good wishes and hopes for you and your family.

      Having you and your family back home in the U.S. will be a blessing to us here, and I am so very glad that you’re taking your family out of the war.

      God speed.

    • John O on October 6, 2015, 1:11 pm

      I wish you the best of luck, Accentitude. I am sure you will continue the struggle for justice, once you have recovered your strength.

      For what it’s worth, whenever I’m feeling on the verge of defeat/despair, I always start to sing this song to myself – Stan Rogers’ “The Mary Ellen Carter”.

    • MHughes976 on October 6, 2015, 3:40 pm

      You will find out if your bp comes under threat from silence as well. If it does, many will welcome your curing it by returning to the conversation.
      It may also be that the mass of Palestinians comes eventuallly to the same conclusion, that they must leave. I’ve wondered before whether their desperation, Europe’s experience in absorbing immigrants and America’s readiness to spend untold sums on Israel will come together one day to produce a Solution. It would not really be a solution, though. There’d be immense pressure on everyone’s blood vessels.

      • Mooser on October 6, 2015, 3:54 pm

        “It may also be that the mass of Palestinians comes eventuallly to the same conclusion, that they must leave.”

        Much more likely that support for Zionism, which was a fad and a fraud to begin with, will collapse before it comes to that.
        Do you really think Zionism is a powerful enough historical idea, along with the artificial “Jewish people” that not even we really believe exists that we are willing to bear the costs that genocide, transfer, will bring, to get Palestine?
        If so, congratulations, you have a lower opinion of Zionism than even I do.

      • MHughes976 on October 6, 2015, 5:21 pm

        I don’t really think that it is – if it were, my belief that the human race, in its Jewish and other branches, is basically rational would be severely threatened. I might have to become an Absurdist. But in my dark moments I fear that it is.

      • Mooser on October 6, 2015, 5:49 pm

        “I don’t really think that it is… But in my dark moments I fear that it is.”

        Yes, I know what you mean. And now events are developing so fast all over the region.

      • RoHa on October 6, 2015, 7:52 pm

        “my belief that the human race, in its Jewish and other branches, is basically rational”

        A more optimistic view than mine. I believe that the human race can, on occasion, be rational. But usually won’t.

        Not that I am an Absurdist. Just a miserable old git.

      • echinococcus on October 7, 2015, 2:11 am

        Do you really think Zionism is a powerful enough historical idea, along with the artificial “Jewish people” that not even we really believe exists that we are willing to bear the costs that genocide, transfer, will bring, to get Palestine?

        Nothing to do with ideas but people. Which they anatomically are. Engineered to a point where their only difference from some in Germany in the late Thirties is that they don’t even have the excuse of being under a repressive dictatorship.

        If so, congratulations, you have a lower opinion of Zionism than even I do.

        A lower opinion of the Zionists and the Americans. It cannot happen here, huh?

    • gamal on October 6, 2015, 7:07 pm

      You Palestinian man, you can’t be defeated, they are never going to win because they will never be satisfied, just like the Western powers they are going to consume themselves to death, make sure your wife and children are happy, safe and well and all the rest will follow, don’t grieve too much its not healthy, eat plenty of jarjir and sumac.

      nothing lasts time consumes everything, surviving and being happy is the primary duty.

      i hope you post again i always read what you write.

      a mystic once wrote : happy in any circumstances, happy in any company, happiness and patience make you invincible. the very best of luck. One day I will walk from Zagazig to Jerusalem just as my grandfather did.

    • zaid on October 7, 2015, 12:39 am

      “. If Palestinians want to call me a coward, so be it. ”

      You are a coward.

  9. yourstruly on October 6, 2015, 1:32 pm

    is this the Zionist equivalent of Kristallnacht?

    those two horrific days in November’38 when mobs of SA paramilitary forces and civilians roamed the streets in search of Jews

    what’s now considered to have been the beginning of Nazi Germany’s Final Solution

    only this time it’s mobs of Jewish soldiers and civilians out in the streets searching for Palestinians

    the beginning of Zionist Israel’s Final Solution? –

    a turnabout of sorts

    whereby participating in the colonization of a native people’s land somehow transmogrifies the former victim into the victimizer

  10. niass2 on October 6, 2015, 4:20 pm

    Every inch of earth is a fighting mess.

  11. jon s on October 7, 2015, 4:25 pm

    I think that in the interest of peace we should keep our hands off the Temple Mount. The right-wing provocateurs should be prevented from setting foot there, and we should leave it to the Muslim Wakf to administer. All the statements about changing the status quo, about Jewish prayer on the Mount- are simply playing with fire.

    • echinococcus on October 7, 2015, 4:52 pm

      …in the interest of peace we should keep our hands off the Temple Mount

      You don’t say. If you are so interested in peace there’s one and only way to achieve it: keep not only your hands but your very butts off Palestine, period.

    • Mooser on October 7, 2015, 4:55 pm

      “The right-wing provocateurs should be prevented from setting foot there,”

      And, who is going to do that, the same “Israeli soldiers” who are now protecting them? I looked at your archive on “Jerusalem” and you are convinced we own it lock, stock and barrel and always have. You would just rather somebody else did the dirty-work involved.

      • inbound39 on October 11, 2015, 4:29 am

        I do not know how he can be convinced they own Jerusalem lock stock and smoking barrel when Israel declared its borders as defined by the Partition Plan in which Jerusalem was not a part of Sovereign Israel. The Provisional Govt also identified Jerusalem to the UN as being Occupied and not within Israel’s declared and recognised borders.

  12. amigo on October 7, 2015, 5:45 pm

    “I think that in the interest of peace we should keep our hands off the Temple Mount. The right-wing provocateurs should be prevented from setting foot there, and we should leave it to the Muslim Wakf to administer – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/jerusalem-breaking-point#comment-801186” Jon S

    Mighty white of you Jon S.

    Incidentally , those provocateurs are not only not prevented from going there.They are actively aided and abetted by the goi who kick out the ” Muslims ” and surround the place with idf thugs who protect the provocateurs . You had better make your demands known to the authorities in TA in the interest of peace.Best of luck with that.

    Oh and Israel has no right to leave any part of occupied Jerusalem to anyone.It is not yours to do so.

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