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‘Replace’ the mosques? Once again, ‘NYT’ soft-pedals Israeli extremism

US Politics

In an article on the Noble Sanctuary, or Temple Mount, in occupied East Jerusalem, New York Times reporter Jodi Rudoren twice refers to the Jewish extremists’ plans for the plateau.

Many Palestinians point to recent visits by Uri Ariel, Mr. Netanyahu’s agriculture minister, who has joined fringe groups in calling for a new Jewish temple to be built there . . .

The mount is also the holiest site in Judaism, and has drawn growing numbers of Jewish visitors in recent years, including many who agitate for the right to pray freely at the site, and a far smaller number who want to take full control of it and replace the iconic Dome of the Rock with a new temple.

“Build?” “Replace?” This is surely soft-pedalling more violent visions on the part of Jewish extremists.

Last year Phil interviewed several of these religious zealots at a demonstration in Jerusalem. The demonstrators chanted in Hebrew, “The mosque will burn, the temple rebuilt.” One spoke of possibly blowing up the mosques during a war. “We don’t know the exact details. There are some hints in scripture. It’s possible an earthquake could destroy the buildings, it’s possible a war could destroy it,” he said, then cited a leading Israeli rabbi who in 1967 “called someone powerful in the Israeli army and told him to blow up the Al Aqsa Mosque.” But the Israeli army missed “that window of opportunity.”

That Jew was clearly talking about religious war.

We let them have Mecca, but this is our city. . .  When the people are ready, they will defeat their enemies with the help of God.

Or check out Israel’s nominee for the 2002 foreign language Oscar, Time of Favor. The plot is that messianic settlers actually want to blow up the mosques, but principled Israelis uncover and stop the conspiracy.  Actor Assi Dayan (Moshe Dayan’s son) does an impressive interpretation of a fanatical settler rabbi.
And life imitates art; earlier this year the Israeli intelligence service thwarted a plan to blow up the mosque.
The point is that talking about blowing up the mosques is part of the culture in Israel; it is not just a “dispute” over “who can pray there.” When you hear about these ideas, Palestinian fear and anger — like this Palestinian leader’s alarm a year ago that the Israeli government wanted to blow up the mosque — do not seem so extreme. What if Protestant militants threatened to blow up St. Patrick’s Cathedral on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan and build a Presbyterian church there instead? Is it possible American Catholics would get exercised about these visions?
Once again, the New York Times covers up Israeli extremism.
PS. Here’s Israel supporter Jeffrey Goldberg baiting another NYT journalist on these religious issues:
Is there any doubt in your mind that the 2nd Temple stood on the Temple Mount?
James North and Philip Weiss
About James North and Philip Weiss

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136 Responses

  1. DoubleStandard
    DoubleStandard
    October 9, 2015, 4:31 pm

    It is you are dishonest and soft-pedaling the Islamist supremacism behind this “dispute.”

    The only reason that the mosque stands there is because the Temple did at one point. That spot would have no significance to anybody were it not for the Jewish scripture’s sanctification of it.

    I don’t get you Phil — regardless of what you would like, you are a Jew. Why do you defend people’s right to discriminate against you? What’s in it for you to demean yourself so pathetically as to urge others to exclude you from your own religious heritage?

    All the principles of “tolerance” and “freedom” about which you sermonize tri-weekly are hollow tripe: you don’t even expect them to applied to yourself and your compatriots.

    • diasp0ra
      diasp0ra
      October 9, 2015, 4:51 pm

      “That spot would have no significance to anybody were it not for the Jewish scripture’s sanctification of it.”

      That’s not true whatsoever. Ever hear of the Isra’ and Mi’raj? That’s why that spot is holy to Muslims, it has nothing to do with the temple.

      Israelis have been digging there for decades now, and literally not a single shred of evidence for its existence IN THAT SPECIFIC location has ever been found. So until it’s proven conclusively that this was the spot of the temple, and I mean archaeologically proven, nobody has any business invading Muslim places of worship.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 9, 2015, 4:56 pm

        Even if it is proven there is no right to violate the space.

      • DoubleStandard
        DoubleStandard
        October 9, 2015, 5:43 pm

        Their scriptures mention it because of the Jewish connection to the place as the site of the Foundation Stone.

        It’s all crude plagiarism.

      • diasp0ra
        diasp0ra
        October 9, 2015, 5:45 pm

        @oldgeezer

        Of course, that should go without saying.

        I kept hearing this line over and over, until one day I hunkered down and started doing some searching on the location of the temple. I was surprised to find that there is up to this day 0 archaeological evidence of the existence of the temple in that location. Just claims, even by some Muslims too.

        The way this line keeps getting repeated over and over like some mantra almost had me fooled that there was some truth behind it. Alas, I should have known better, hardly any Zionist talking points have any truth behind them, and those that do are often concealing the whole picture and are cherry picked.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 9, 2015, 6:09 pm

        DS

        Who cares if there was a temple or not.

        The history of an extinct structure have no bearing on the status of an extant structure.

        Get over it, Go build your temple somewhere else.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 9, 2015, 7:04 pm

        Zaid,

        “The history of an extinct structure have no bearing on the status of an extant structure. ”

        I am not in favor of destroying the Mosque.

        But does this same principle apply to Israeli towns or structures built over Palestinian villages? There are many here who would disagree.

      • annie
        annie
        October 9, 2015, 7:57 pm

        does the same principle apply to a village destroyed from a few decades ago that living refugees are waiting to return – to an (alleged) structure from 2000 years ago recorded in biblical texts?
        no. you have to ask?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 9, 2015, 7:18 pm

        “I don’t get you Phil — regardless of what you would like, you are a Jew. Why do you defend people’s right to discriminate against you? What’s in it for you to demean yourself so pathetically as to urge others to exclude you from your own religious heritage?”

        Doubld Standard, it’s too late for Phil at this point. He was observed on a South-of-the-Border jaunt eating a shrimp burrito. There’s no getting past that.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 9, 2015, 8:35 pm

        “I am not in favor of destroying the Mosque.” “Jon66

        “Jon66” and “Jon s” …what a wild duet! You could lose your mind!

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        October 9, 2015, 10:31 pm

        “I am not in favor of destroying the Mosque.

        But does this same principle apply to Israeli towns or structures built over Palestinian villages? There are many here who would disagree.”

        At my age, the recent memory gets a bit shaky. Not surprising, then, that I can’t recall anyone at all (let alone”many”) suggesting on MW that such Israeli structures should be razed.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 12:21 am

        John 66

        “But does this same principle apply to Israeli towns or structures built over Palestinian villages?”

        No it does not apply, since the one who is living there is the same one who destroyed them.
        criminals must be punished and not rewarded.Plus time matters.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 1:07 am

        “It’s all crude plagiarism.”

        Yep and that includes The Torah, a collection of recycled Mesopotamian, Canaanite and Egyptian myths.

      • October 10, 2015, 1:35 am

        Zaid said “Yep and that includes The Torah, a collection of recycled Mesopotamian, Canaanite and Egyptian myths. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/replace-israeli-extremism#comment-155131

        I agree with almost everything you’ve said so far in this site Zaid, but I strongly disagree with this particular statement. The Torah in its original form was sent down to the prophet Moses a.s. as a direct word of God in which references were made to earlier civilisations, including Mesopotamians and Egyptians.

        This is further corroborated in the Quran where it is said the Torah ( or Taurat) was sent down by God to the Israelites who would later violate its commandments and knowingly misinterpret it’s message.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 10, 2015, 1:42 am

        @zaid
        “Plus time matters.”

        How much time?

        I agree with this but in all honesty struggle with it. At what point in time do illegal actions become legitimate.

        One year? 50? A hundred? A thousand?

        I recognize that morality a thousand years ago is not the morality of today. I am glad for that.

        For me the key issues are that bigotry and racism are wrong. No matter which side. There is no “yeah but they…” in my beliefs. The acquisition of territory through war is wrong without qualification as to who started it. Any side in a war can claim to have acted in a preemptive or preventive fashion. It doesn’t advance peace to further one position over the other no matter which side you prefer.

        We bombed the heck out of Iraq for their territorial grab on Kuwait. We should have bombed the heck out of Israel for it’s incessant land grabs outside of it’s defined territories. Not that i agree with bombing the heck out of anyone but I do diagree with interacting in any fashion with a racist, expansionist state of any ilk.

        So where do we draw the line?

        For me, right or wrong, it is WW II and the laws enacted to prevent further abuse of civilians and to hold racist states in check. There Israel fails in the extreme. That the abused become abusers is not a surprise but we should not permit it. The cycle needs to be stopped somewhere. We now know it for the evil it is and no, Israel does not deserve it’s kick at the can. No one does. Scum like DoubleStandard, hophmi, yonah, need to be sidelined for the scum they are. The sad part is that Israel lauds racists. While Nutty didn’t win a majority he garnered a plurality.

        I am rambling. I see no route to normality. I wish I did. Israel is a failed state which is unable to represent it’s citizens as equals and not even as humans. The plurality has voted in extreme and rank racists. There is no saving grace. They have had opportunities to save themselves but have caved in to the more base instincts of rank, and vile, bigotry and racism.

        I was a supporter of Israel until the Sharon era. I would support a democratic Israel, if it ever existed. Failing that the world will not miss the current abomination. No more than it would miss the current Saudi Arabia, ISIS, Al Nusra, Taliban, KKK. They are all alike.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        October 10, 2015, 5:30 am

        Regarding the Torah: For whatever reason the Torah and the entire Original Testament is the most famous ancient book in the western culture. Many lines from it are part of the culture. (as translations, but still in the culture). Just to pick one: yea, though I shall walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil. (which is so much of the culture that even the play on that line, because i am the meanest s.o.b. in the valley, has also become part of the culture). what ancient text has that fluency on the lips of the masses of the west? answer: none. and how many verses from the koran have that fluency on the lips of the west? answer: none.

        the koran has brought a wide audience: billions, to the idea of the one god and stories that it has in common with the Torah and that’s to its credit. whether the koran has played a role in the stagnation of the Arab world, it is difficult to tell. How the koran plays a role in countries like indonesia and turkey are a different question.

        but to return to the torah and the west. the torah and tanach are part of the western culture. where do you think shakespeare and tolstoy learned more than a few of their devices and characterizations? it wasn’t the story of Jesus and the letters of Paul, that’s for sure. they learnt much drama from the Greeks, but also from the original testament.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        October 10, 2015, 10:55 am

        Interesting, Mr. Fredman. The suffocating influence of the Old Testament in Protestant culture continues over a thousand years of priestly Christian intolerance and repression of thought, while introducing a new wrathful, bitter, inflexible note in theology, akin to Judaism and Islam.
        You are right this time: so many years and we’re still not any closer to getting rid of the lot of them.

      • bryan
        bryan
        October 10, 2015, 10:58 am

        a4tech “The Torah in its original form was sent down to the prophet Moses” And yes, when God dictated to Moses in Deuteronony 34:5, “And Moses died there” the scribe permitted a tear to roll down his cheek, but still carried on writing. The overwhelming majority of scholars give credence to some form of the documentary hypothesis – but you may carry on believing your old wives’ tales, and investing all your energy in resolving its contradictions and anachronisms.

        “This is further corroborated in the Quran where it is said the Torah ( or Taurat) was sent down by God to the Israelites” See, when it suits you, you can give credence to the Quran, but the rest of the time it is the work of the devil.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 10, 2015, 11:38 am

        “The Torah in its original form was sent down to the prophet Moses a.s. as a direct word of God in which references were made to earlier civilisations, including Mesopotamians and Egyptians.”

        Yeah, sure “The Torah in its original form was sent down to the prophet Moses a.s. as a direct word of God”. So what? That and about $3.50 will buy you a bad latte at any one the of hundreds of Starbuck’s coffee shops.

        Take that “Torah Rules” BS elsewhere. Frankly, you don’t even believe what you wrote, so don’t expect us to.

      • Froggy
        Froggy
        October 10, 2015, 12:19 pm

        “The Torah in its original form was sent down to the prophet Moses a.s. as a direct word of God”.

        Oh, aye… sure. I’d like to see them prove it.

      • Teapot
        Teapot
        October 10, 2015, 11:38 am

        @yonah

        Why are you talking about the influence of the Torah vs. the influence of the Quran in the West? I thought this was about Palestine which is in the Middle East. I really don’t see how Shakespeare and Tolstoy are in any way relevant to this discussion.

        Oh no, wait! I get it now. This is western imperialism. We’re the only ones whose opinions are relevant. Okay, sure…

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 6:21 pm

        oldgeezer.

        My parents (still alive) were ethnically cleansed from Palestine to refugee camps in Jordan less than an hour drive from their original cities and for decades they were not allowed to return .

        Father——West (New) Jerusalem.
        Mother—-Hebron

        is not it morally clear for you that my parents and their children are entitled to Palestine or not.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 10, 2015, 7:18 pm

        @zaid

        That is not the question I asked. I can’t decipher your last paragraph to be honest. Taking a wild guess I will say that RoR is enshrined in international law and I support that law without an exemption for Israel.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        October 10, 2015, 9:47 pm

        The only reason that the mosque stands there is because the Temple did at one point.

        Actually, there is no evidence hat a temple did stand at that point. Please cite one of the the professional, internationally respected archeologists who has published conclusive evidence of an ancient Jewish Temple under the Haram al-Sharif.

      • inbound39
        inbound39
        October 11, 2015, 6:26 am

        Beliefs are beliefs….not necessarily fact,whether it be the Bible or the Torah. They are man made writings written during a time when religion’s primary use was to control the masses. Every religion claims to worship the one true God. Believers believe their beliefs to be true. It is why International Law does not allow Religion to enter the equation. It is why the UN Human Rights Act prohibits anyone from imposing their beliefs on another. God is not a Real Estate Agent. European Zionist Fanatics that migrated to the Middle East have no legitimate historic claim to Palestine or anywhere else in the Middle East. Their history and links are within Europe. Many Khazars converted to the Jewish Faith so genetically have no link whatsoever to Palestine. It’s a fairytale Zionists use to fool people into supporting their goal. Zionists use religion to increase their support base.

    • Keith
      Keith
      October 9, 2015, 7:05 pm

      DOUBLESTANDARD- “The only reason that the mosque stands there is because the Temple did at one point.”

      No it didn’t. The bible/Torah is myth. These new assaults on the mosque are an attempt to provoke an intifada so that the Israelis can respond brutally, as usual. These acts of brutality are justified by Zionist exploitation of Judaic myth-history.

      DOUBLESTANDARD- “I don’t get you Phil — regardless of what you would like, you are a Jew.”

      Only two groups make this assertion: Nazis and Zionists. Or do I repeat myself? I mean, are you seriously suggesting that there is a Jewish race? As for Phil’s sense of identity, his personal beliefs are what he chooses them to be. You have quite clearly chosen to be a Zionist fundamentalist tribalist. Someone who considers the enlightenment an existential threat.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      October 9, 2015, 7:17 pm

      Somewhere a zionist cyclist is at a high risk of serious injury as their rear end wheel is missing it’s wingnut.

    • JWalters
      JWalters
      October 9, 2015, 7:49 pm

      “All the principles of “tolerance” and “freedom” about which you sermonize tri-weekly are hollow tripe: you don’t even expect them to applied to yourself and your compatriots.”

      I apply tolerance and freedom to all those who support them, and Mondoweiss supports these with a rare level of courage these days. You are paranoid beyond belief, except that I’ve read how thoroughly some Jewish kids get brainwashed.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 9, 2015, 8:22 pm

        ” except that I’ve read how thoroughly some Jewish kids get brainwashed.”

        Whether the way Double Standard is brainwashed is “Jewish” or not, I don’t know. But I do know it bears an unsurprising resemblance to the rhetoric, in all respects, of American right wing-nuts.
        Plus, he’s on the end of a wire, which always makes them braver.

      • JWalters
        JWalters
        October 11, 2015, 2:29 am

        I agree, the WAY the brainwashing is done is pretty much the same across the board – scare the sh*t out of the kids!!

      • JWalters
        JWalters
        October 11, 2015, 8:12 pm

        Terrify them, in fact. Terrorize them.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 9, 2015, 8:29 pm

      “What’s in it for you to demean yourself so pathetically as to urge others to exclude you from your own religious heritage?”

      Whoopee! I can’t wait until we can add the honorifics “Destroyers of the Palestinian Scourge”, and “Protectors of the (#?) Temple”, not to mention “Conquerors! of Palestine” to our battle-flags!
      What a religious heritage! How it will enhance our own self-worth, and oh! how it will make the rest of the world gasp with admiration, and make way for us in the streets.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        October 10, 2015, 9:31 am

        Double standard’s comments perfectly expose the delusional exclusionary thinking that ultimately means trouble for anyone who thinks that way.

    • Steve Grover
      Steve Grover
      October 9, 2015, 8:46 pm

      Doubld Standard sez:

      “I don’t get you Phil — regardless of what you would like, you are a Jew. Why do you defend people’s right to discriminate against you? What’s in it for you to demean yourself so pathetically as to urge others to exclude you from your own religious heritage?”

      Not hard to get. The only time Weiss mentions his Judaism is when he is trying to make his Israel hating point.

      And Mooser sez:
      “it’s too late for Phil at this point. He was observed on a South-of-the-Border jaunt eating a shrimp burrito. There’s no getting past that.”

      You are right Mooser, his eating habits are less treyf than his Israel hatred.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        October 9, 2015, 10:14 pm

        Steve Grover: The only time Weiss mentions his Judaism is when he is trying to make his Israel hating point.

        [..]His eating habits are less treyf than his Israel hatred.
        ———————————

        If Mr. Weiss is a “hater”, nothing he says has any validity. “Haters gonna hate, hate, hate.”

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 9, 2015, 10:40 pm

        “You are right Mooser, his eating habits are less treyf than his Israel hatred.”

        And as usual, search his complete archive as you might, you can’t come up with a single quote substantiating your ridiculous contention (and made through inference, too, which is the lowest form of contention!) that Phil Weiss has “Israel hatred”.
        To begin with, I really doubt Phil would give them the satisfaction. And he has always been careful to listen to Zionists, and take their narrative into account, and give it it’s proper worth. Everything it deserves, in fact.

        Phil has also been seen patting small children on the head, sharing shrimp burritos, and being very nice to dogs and cats. Gonna be hard to stick that “Israel hatred” tag on him. He’s happiest among his books, or walking by the sea.

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        October 10, 2015, 5:28 pm

        Moister sez:
        Phil has also been seen patting small children on the head, sharing shrimp burritos”
        Yeah but he makes them wash it down with Horchata poisoned with anti-Zionism.

    • Atlantaiconoclast
      Atlantaiconoclast
      October 9, 2015, 11:55 pm

      yes, cause DoubleStandard cares so much about discrimination against non Jewish Semites

    • talknic
      talknic
      October 10, 2015, 7:13 am

      @ DoubleStandard “The only reason that the mosque stands there is because the Temple did at one point.”

      A) A temple (or two) allegedly stood there. However, allegations are not evidence

      B) Even if true, so what? There’s been a Mosque there far longer than any Jewish structure ever existed there.

      ” That spot would have no significance to anybody were it not for the Jewish scripture’s sanctification of it.”

      It’s an ideal spot that pre-dated Judaism

      “Why do you defend people’s right to discriminate against you? “

      If there’s no evidence of something, a Zionutter will make something up!

      • inbound39
        inbound39
        October 11, 2015, 6:35 am

        The problem DoubleStandard has is people like Phil who dare to challenge Zionism make DoubleStandard feel threatened because he knows he is not in possession of a single fact….just a created belief.

    • October 10, 2015, 1:05 pm

      I was just clarifying the mainstream Islamic thoughts on the Torah as opposed to Zaid’s highly misinformed idea that the Torah is in essence a man-made plagiarized document.

      Muslims believe in the Torah, Psalms and Bible in their original, unaltered form in addition to the Quran obviously as holy books written through divine inspiration.

      Again, just a quick clarification. I’m not trying to sell you guys anything.

      • gamal
        gamal
        October 10, 2015, 2:44 pm

        “I was just clarifying the mainstream Islamic thoughts on the Torah” generally educated Muslims would avoid terms such as “Mainstream”,

        “as opposed to Zaid’s highly misinformed idea that the Torah is in essence a man-made plagiarized document.”

        ok

        “Muslims believe in the Torah, Psalms and Bible in their original, unaltered form”

        So you in fact agree with Zaid’s “highly misinformed idea”, ask a Sunni we can generate consensus from the most unpromising materials, i like your as a Muslim schtick, its not very convincing and I say that as a brother in faith.

      • October 10, 2015, 3:55 pm

        I’m afraid I’m not understanding your point Gamal. Also fyi, passing a so called brother in faith’s sniff test in the internet is not a requirement for being a Muslim Gamal, thankfully.

        Are you refuting the fact mainstream Muslims believe in divinity of the Torah (Taurat), Psalms (Zabur), Bible (Injeel) in addition to the Quran? Do you know why Jews and Christians are considered to be People of the Book in Islam?

        As such, claiming the Torah as something people plagiarized from earlier civilisations is a misinformed stance within the mainstream Islamic thought.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 6:32 pm

        a4tech

        I am not interested in having a discussion about the origins of the Quraan or the Bible since i believe that this subject is irrelevant to the conflict.

        If you want to consider the similarity of biblical stories and characters to Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythologies a matter of coincidence ….you are welcomed.

        And if you want to discard decades of archaeology that proved all biblical stories to be fiction. you are welcomed..

        And if you want to discard scientific facts in favor of biblical nonsense.. feel free to do that

        Although i dont recommend anybody to put his brain in a refrigerator.

        Again the Arab/Israeli conflict is about a group of people who came to a land that were already populated and threw them away and built a state for themselves instead.
        Period
        That is the conflict. if you have a problem with that then side with Palestinians .

      • October 10, 2015, 11:33 pm

        Zaid

        It appears I’ve mistaken you as a fellow believing Muslim.

        Just out of curiosity, do you also think the Quran is a man-made document plagiarized from earlier texts?

      • bryan
        bryan
        October 11, 2015, 9:12 am

        “misinformed idea that the Torah is in essence a man-made plagiarized document ”

        I think we can all agree that it is a document, or more correctly a collection of documents (unlike the Magna Carta or the American Declaration of Independence, it is too long to contain on one papyrus scroll or piece of parchment, and hence is organised into books and chapters).

        Of course it is man-made. What possible alternative can their be? (Richard Dawkins calculated that the odds on a monkey randomly typing a short line from Shakespeare [“Methinks it is like a weasel”] are one in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. All efforts to teach even the most intelligent non-human primates Hebrew syntax and vocabulary or to write in that script have failed totally.)

        I don’t like to accuse people of plagiarism without very strong evidence, but certainly the Israelites were highly promiscuous in borrowing religious and other ideas from the surrounding cultures (especially the Babylonians, Assyrians, Canaanites and Egyptians.) Thus the law code of Moses is very similar to the much earlier code of Hammurabi (including an eye for an eye). The Noah’s Ark story was adapted from Assyrian myths. The story of Moses hidden in a reed basket in the river was borrowed from Egypt, and some of the proverbs attributed to Solomon mirror Egyptian antecedents almost word for word. The books of the Old Testament were clearly edited at a very late date, long after it is claimed that Moses might have lived, to include some ancestral myths from Israel, some from Judah, and combined with the theology expressed by the priestly class. Thus they are full of repetitions and anachronisms.

        I think you clearly are trying to sell something, and like snake-oil, it offends the sensibilities of anyone half-way educated or rational.

      • October 11, 2015, 10:20 am

        Bryan,

        First and foremost, I’m sure you understand that I was arguing within a theological context whereby the existence of a higher being i.e. God is the ultimate basis of thoughts. As such, it is redundant to point out secular-atheististic motives as a counter-argument within this particular context.

        Secular history and theology are two different planes of thought and it is problematic to conflate them when making statements involving parties affiliated with either camps.

        For example, as a secular Arab, Israeli or Mike or Joe, it is perfectly fine to propose ideas similar to yours when discussing the Torah or Quran. After all, in this plane, there is no assumption of God and everything can be debated through human ideals and rationality.

        However, the problem arises when similar ideas are assumed to just as valid within a theological plane, where the boundary conditions are fundamentally different. Even more problematic is when a person put forward these secular ideas while claiming to also represent the theological camp at the same time. They are misrepresenting the side they claim they are in.

        So when a self-proclaimed Christian goes and state the non-divinity of Jesus, that person is acting against the billions of other Christians who believe in otherwise through misinformation of their theological stance. When a self-proclaimed Muslim goes and state the Holy Scriptures are entirely man–made, that person is acting against the billions of other Muslims who believe otherwise.

      • Froggy
        Froggy
        October 11, 2015, 11:12 am

        A4tech : “So when a self-proclaimed Christian goes and state the non-divinity of Jesus, that person is acting against the billions of other Christians who believe in otherwise through misinformation of their theological stance. When a self-proclaimed Muslim goes and state the Holy Scriptures are entirely man–made, that person is acting against the billions of other Muslims who believe otherwise.”

        What a strange POV. An individual’s statement of belief or disbelief is just that, an individual’s statement of his own beliefs. Such a statement has nothing to do with the beliefs of that individual’s co-religionists.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 11, 2015, 12:14 pm

        “So when a self-proclaimed Christian goes and state the non-divinity of Jesus, that person is acting against the billions of other Christians who believe in otherwise through misinformation of their theological stance. When a self-proclaimed Muslim goes and state the Holy Scriptures are entirely man–made, that person is acting against the billions of other Muslims who believe otherwise.”

        Exactly! Right you are! That’s so true! And when a person states that extreme Jewish beliefs are not true, he is “acting against”, oh, maybe, at most, a million people in the whole world!!! And the beliefs are harmful and offensive to others, too.

        Ever think about it that way? Deal with it.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 11, 2015, 1:34 pm

        a4tech

        Relax ,i am a Muslim, and no one defends Islam and Muslims like me….trust me

        But i also have my skepticism and i struggle with a lot of things in religion and i think that is not something that would push you out of the boundaries of Islam.

        At the end these are stories that you could believe to be true history or you could just believe that they are just stories for us to learn wisdom from.

        My respond to the Zionist troll where in the context of accusing Islam of plagiarism because of the similarities that exists between the Quraanic characters and the biblical ones, so i wanted to remind the accuser to look in the mirror.

        Belief in Quranic/Biblical characters and stories is A BELIEF and should stay like that, and should not be inserted into politics or to be used to claim a country or property, and if you want to do that then you must subject the text to critical criticism for you to have a valid claim.

        Inserting Biblical stories about Palestine into politics is one of the Root causes of the Nakba and it is the main reason that most Jews are Zionists.

      • October 11, 2015, 11:39 pm

        Froggy : “What a strange POV. An individual’s statement of belief or disbelief is just that, an individual’s statement of his own beliefs. Such a statement has nothing to do with the beliefs of that individual’s co-religionists. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/replace-israeli-extremism#comment-155131

        Actually this is not the case at all. An individual is free to believe in whatever he or she wants, but that is contrary to becoming a member of faith. By doing so, he or she chooses to follow a fixed boundary condition set by the faith and disavow everything that goes against the doctrines of religion. Again, this a deliberate choice to make. Hence there are no Muslim atheists or Christian atheists.

        You can believe in evolution didn’t happen and Earth is 6000 years old, but you cannot proclaim yourself a rational scientific scholar whilst doing so. No university or fellow scholars would ever recognize you as one and most often will rebuke your claims of identity whenever the opportunity arises.

      • Froggy
        Froggy
        October 12, 2015, 10:46 am

        Religion is also tribal, and part of an ethnic identity.

        I wish I could give a fuller response, but I’m off for a month in the US. It’s a working trip so I have to finish gathering my gear.

      • bryan
        bryan
        October 12, 2015, 7:26 am

        @a4tech: “Secular history and theology are two different planes of thought and it is problematic to conflate them” That’s nonsense – one could perhaps argue that the Deism of the Enlightenment was entirely theological (though it also sought to be rational), but the three religions of the book have all (not me) conflated history and theology. I.e they all claim to have arisen in certain contexts which they proceed to “document” in great detail. Jews do not generally claim that Abraham was simply a myth that was utilized symbolically, but an actual historical figure – and the same applies to Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon and a host of others. Archaeologists and students of ancient texts have found no evidence to authenticate the theologians who wrote about these figures many centuries after the event.

        The same is true of the Christian religion. Contemporary writings by the Christian and related Jewish communities fail to mention a Jesus who can be linked with the much later biographies written by his followers, though they do mention many preachers, some called Jesus, many of whom attracted bands of followers, and many preachers were seen by the Romans and the Jewish elite that controlled the temple administration as seditious agitators who were killed, often by crucifixion. But the so-called historical facts like the star and the kings that appeared at the nativity appear to be later inventions, inserted in the tale to fulfill earlier prophecies within the Messianic tradition.

        The theological mind is of course by definition capable of accepting absurdities that no rational mind could accept – that god sends plagues and floods to punish people, that he leads the armies of his followers, that he empowers his prophets to perform miracles, that he would go so far as to impregnate a poor peasant girl just so that he could demonstrate his remarkable powers by bringing back to life a “son” who had been killed.

        We do not need this crazy theology, or this manufactured history, when the real value of religions has been to propagate worthy ethical systems. For instance, Rabbi Hillel: “What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn”. Judaism, Christianity and Islam, just as much as atheism, are capable of addressing injustice, promoting charity and care for the poor, the widows and orphans. we need to amplify these insights and suppress the oft associated lunacies, like the idea that god would give Palestine in perpetuity to one group of so-called followers.

      • October 12, 2015, 10:06 am

        Bryan,

        It appears we are at a different level of understanding of each other, therefore I think the conversation will only move further and further away from any form of agreement between us.

        As such, I’d like to clarify religion and secular history both deal with the same subject however with vastly different angle of approach. If I want to draw an analogy, it’s like comparing filmmaking technology with films. One refer to the physical subjects like lens type, recording medium, and technique while the other is vastly more complex and nuanced involving language,, cultural values, human nature and much, much more.

        I wish I can come up with a better explanation, but it’s like when a film uses a particular lens type or shooting technique, its primary motivation isn’t to showcase these on their own merit but to utilize them to portray a story. A secular historian in this case would be more qualified in researching the filmmaking process however the analysis of the film storyline would be a job for the theologist.

        P.S. In Islam, it is widely accepted that there are numerous contradictions within the current Bible and Torah due to various editing and mistranslations by their early followers rendering them invalid. This is the primary reasoning given in the Quran and Hadith as to why another Holy Book was sent down in the first place. And unlike the earlier scriptures, there are zero inconsistencies in it whether referring to historical, ideological or moral statements made from the first to the last passage. A recent analysis of a page of Quran from the time of Prophet Muhammad was shown to be just as same as the modern version but without some tonal markers for recitation purposes.

      • YoniFalic
        YoniFalic
        October 12, 2015, 10:35 am

        @a4tech

        I hope you are aware that Rabbinic Judaism is the religion of the Talmud and not the religion of the Hebrew Bible — that latter religion is Karaite Judaism.

        The Talmud is based on the Mishnah, which is alleged to be a redaction of the Oral Torah, which is a complete fabrication, unknown to the Hebrew prophets (including Jesus).

        I am an atheist, but all my ancestors from my great-grandparents until we get to the Slavic, Turkic, and Germanic pagan founders of the Eastern European Yiddish speaking Jewish communities practiced Judaism. Judaism is a religion, and a Jew is a member of the community associated with that religion.

        Racist (mostly former) Jews created Zionism, which was just another 19th century genocidal European colonialism of the sort that was practiced in N. America, S. Africa, parts of Latin America, Australia, and New Zealand. The Zionists added a twist, for they reinterpreted Jew from a member of a religious community into something more than an ethnic group.

        Zionists use “Jew” exactly as the German Nazis used “Aryan”. Unfortunately, non-religious people, whose ancestors practiced Judaism, have adopted this perverted reinterpretation from the Zionists. Because I refuse to be mentally colonized by the Zionists, I categorically reject identification as a Jew.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 12, 2015, 11:27 am

        “Because I refuse to be mentally colonized by the Zionists, I categorically reject identification as a Jew.”

        I know what you mean, Yoni, and appreciate that.

        Because I refuse to be mentally colonized by Zionists, I want to be identified as a Jew. Insist on it. I’ll be damned if I leave the territory open for them. I will not let them tell me what a Jew is, so I can conclude I am not one

      • bryan
        bryan
        October 13, 2015, 4:39 am

        a4tech: “it’s like comparing film-making technology with films”. That is an excellent analogy. Presumably if the film-maker said he shot the film using a particular camera, at a particular location, on a particular date, with a particular cast, and it can be demonstrated that that camera had not yet been invented, and that that location, date and cast did not feature in the film, an impartial observer would doubt the film maker’s honesty and integrity. That would not matter a jot to the film-maker who is worrying only about the size of audience his film will attract and the level of box-office receipts he will receive.

        You could perhaps have used another analogy: its a bit like comparing Judaism and Zionism; one values truth and justice, and the other is its antithesis.

    • zaid
      zaid
      October 10, 2015, 6:31 pm
      • zaid
        zaid
        October 11, 2015, 12:59 pm

        a4tech

        Relax ,i am a Muslim, and no one defends Islam and Muslims like me….trust me

        But i also have my skepticism and i struggle with a lot of things in religion and i think that is not something that would push you out of the boundaries of Islam.

        At the end these are stories that you could believe to be true history or you could just believe that they are just stories for us to learn wisdom from.

        My respond to the Zionist troll where in the context of accusing Islam of plagiarism because of the similarities that exists between the Quraanic characters and the biblical ones, so i wanted to remind the accuser to look in the mirror.

        Belief in Quranic/Biblical characters and stories is A BELIEF and should stay like that, and should not be inserted into politics or to be used to claim a country or property, and if you want to do that then you must subject the text to critical criticism for you to have a valid claim.

        Inserting Biblical stories about Palestine into politics is one of the Root causes of the Nakba and it is the main reason that most Jews are Zionists.

    • Kris
      Kris
      October 11, 2015, 11:04 am

      @DS: “That spot would have no significance to anybody were it not for the Jewish scripture’s sanctification of it. ”

      “Sanctification?” I guess now that “antisemitism,” “Holocaust,” “delegitimization,” and “Jew hatred” have lost their emotional punch, the hasbarists are trying out “sanctification.”

      The flaw here may be that most people who would be moved by the idea of “sanctity” probably would apply it to the living earth as a whole, including all the plants, animals,and human beings, and not to a small piece of land in a place where ethnic cleansing is being carried out.

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      October 12, 2015, 9:24 am

      DoubleStandard: “The only reason that the mosque stands there is because the Temple did at one point.”

      This is correct. The al-Aqsa mosque was co-engineered and co-built by Jews to allow everyone to worship the God of Abraham and is in fact the the restored temple.

  2. gracie fr
    gracie fr
    October 9, 2015, 5:38 pm

    “The only reason that the mosque stands there is because the Temple did at one point. That spot would have no significance to anybody were it not for the Jewish scripture’s sanctification of it.
    I don’t get you Phil — regardless of what you would like, you are a Jew.”

    This attempted guilt tripping over the what some Jews consider the Holiest of Holys is a slug below the belt…

    Symbols are just that….Symbols. And this one is becoming more and more tarnished as the days pass

    • annie
      annie
      October 9, 2015, 6:33 pm

      I don’t get you Phil — regardless of what you would like, you are a Jew.

      what’s that even supposed to mean gracie?

      • ckg
        ckg
        October 9, 2015, 7:48 pm

        Annie–see Bumblebye’s comment below.

      • annie
        annie
        October 9, 2015, 7:51 pm

        oh thanks ckg. coincidentally i had just noticed that before seeing your comment and adding quotemarks to gracie’s. i was reading it on the moderation page and there was no indication she was quoting anyone. sorry for the confusion everyone.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 11, 2015, 12:22 pm

      “This attempted guilt tripping over the what some Jews consider the Holiest of Holys is a slug below the belt… “

      Probably gave the Moderators the best laugh they’ve had in weeks, and Phil, too, if they even bothered to tell him about it. Shoot, Hophmi used to go on for paragraphs! Ah! At “this season of yellow leaf and sere” (I got that from the back of a Brahms album) I still keep “the Phils will fall away” stashed in case I run out of ipecac.

      Oddly enough (I mean, could I be any odder?) I was watching the scene from “To Kill a Mockingbird” yesterday, the scene where Bob Ewell confronts Atticus Finch in the courthouse about defending Tom Robinson after the arraignment.

  3. grandpont
    grandpont
    October 9, 2015, 6:54 pm

    The Herodian Temple probably did stand on that site, and was an extended version of the Second Temple. As for the first temple there is no evidence of its existence. But so what? It has been a Mosque for 1300 years, which is longer than it was ever a Jewish temple. Why should that give any Jews the right to seize the holy place of another religion? This is the politics of the madhouse and a classic example of religious ‘traditions’ being invented for extremist political purposes. Traditional Jewish belief was that Jews were forbidden even to set foot on the site until the age of the Messiah. These Temple Mount fascist fruitcakes are complete nutters and should be locked up.

  4. Bumblebye
    Bumblebye
    October 9, 2015, 6:55 pm

    It’s a quote from DoubleStandard’s comment, 3rd para – not gracie!

    • annie
      annie
      October 9, 2015, 7:52 pm

      thanks bumblebye

      • DoubleStandard
        DoubleStandard
        October 9, 2015, 10:41 pm

        I’m surprised Annie didn’t know that. Doesn’t she read every word of my posts before letting them through moderation?

      • annie
        annie
        October 10, 2015, 3:26 am

        i’m not the only person who clears comments here for moderation ds. if there’s nothing indicating someone is quoting (either quotemarks or italics or something…) i assume it’s their opinion.

      • gracie fr
        gracie fr
        October 10, 2015, 2:27 pm

        …Thank you bumblebye….

        Annie Robbins, like other posters, I was insensed at DoubleStandard’s comment concerning Phil !!!

        To the comment’s conclusion, ” Symbols are just that….Symbols. And this one is becoming more and more tarnished as the days pass –

        I should have added……by the likes of people like you…..

  5. JWalters
    JWalters
    October 9, 2015, 7:55 pm

    Rock worshipers. Financed by gold worshipers, ammunitioneers.

  6. Froggy
    Froggy
    October 9, 2015, 8:09 pm

    “We let them have Mecca….”

    Fascinating. Are there Jews so deluded that they think they control cities in countries other than Israel?

    Mecca is a Saudi city. The Jews have nothing to do with it.

    • johneill
      johneill
      October 10, 2015, 2:29 am

      I was also struck by that, it seems much more like a threat than a proposal for the place to change. Sort of a militaristic demand for control over Muslim beliefs in the ‘undivided capital of eretz yisael’ – because (some) Palestinians are still allowed to visit the holier sites in SA.
      Anyway, the whole scene playing out reeks of fascism and religious extremism, a healthy mix that is sure to make israel a thriving center of human rights in the region.

  7. RoHa
    RoHa
    October 9, 2015, 10:34 pm

    Go ahead. Blow up the Al Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock. Then see what happens.

  8. mcohen.
    mcohen.
    October 9, 2015, 11:06 pm

    No Jews allowed in mecca…verboten

    Anyway lets not dwell to much on mecca…saudi Arabia has it,s hands full in Yemen

    There was a huge dump of stuff from the 2nd temple area and it is being sorted…there is no doubt, absolutely, no doubt that muslims built on top of the temple…..they will share that temple mount area with Jews…..but that is a separate issue from the political…..if the politics is sorted out then it will be so cool…right Phil……so cool

    • annie
      annie
      October 10, 2015, 3:21 am

      there is no doubt, absolutely no doubt for mcohen, that muslims built on top of the temple. however, outside of the brief range of mcohen’s mental constructions, doubt abounds!

      they will share that temple mount area with Jews come hell or high water eh mcohen, even if it means a 3rd world war? think again.

      • Froggy
        Froggy
        October 10, 2015, 9:53 am

        If the Muslims did build the mosque on the site where the temple once stood, then the site was what modern Brits call a ‘brownfield site’ and free for development.

        (Brownfield : denoting or relating to urban sites for potential building development that have had previous development on them.)

        BTW, I’m off to the US for a month. I’ll be taking notes of the daft comments. Like do we have cell phones in France…. ;)

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      October 10, 2015, 5:35 am

      “No Jews allowed in mecca…verboten”

      This is totally unjustified discrimination against Jews.

      Of course, Christians, Buddhists, Druids, Atheists, Hindus, Shintoists, Cao Dai followers, Sikhs, Shamans, Obeah men, and, in fact, anyone who isn’t a Muslim are also forbidden, but that is irrelevant.

      The important point is that Jews are not allowed to enter. Blatant anti-Semitism.

    • talknic
      talknic
      October 10, 2015, 6:21 am

      @ mcohen “No Jews allowed in mecca…verboten”

      A) So what? No Christians or in fact any non-Muslim!
      B) Why would a Jew want to go to a Muslim Holy site?

    • diasp0ra
      diasp0ra
      October 10, 2015, 10:49 am

      SHOW US. Where is all this evidence?

      Where is this huge dump of stuff?

      Show me archaeological proof that proves without a doubt that there was a Temple on that same exact spot. Please. I’m being serious.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 10, 2015, 11:27 am

      “mcohen, please, stop that! Those ellipses are SCARY! What is implied (or inferred, ask “RoHa”) by those three dots?

      You are afraid to complete a sentence. That is cowardice of a high order.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        October 11, 2015, 2:46 am

        Maybe mcc isn’t implying anything. He might think that your over-active imagination will lead you to infer something more terrible than he could conceive.

    • zaid
      zaid
      October 10, 2015, 6:34 pm

      Under a Palestinian flag/Sovereignty, then maybe.

  9. Qualtrough
    Qualtrough
    October 9, 2015, 11:46 pm

    There is no point in arguing with people whose beliefs are faith-based. No amount of logical thinking or facts is going to dissuade them. They are where they are because at some point in time they knowingly or unknowingly took a ‘leap to faith’ that landed them where they are today. Best to present the facts to set the record straight and then get out, otherwise you are just encouraging them. Can anyone here ever imagine Grover, Hopfmi or any of the usual suspects ever saying, “You know, I looked at your links and analyzed your arguments and it looks like any Biblical claim to Israel is totally and unequivocally without merit. My bad! How can I help undo the damage we Zionists have done?”

    • Froggy
      Froggy
      October 10, 2015, 11:04 am

      Since when is the Bible considered a valid document of ownership?

      • inbound39
        inbound39
        October 11, 2015, 5:38 pm

        Never Froggy….the Zionists tried to get Palestine from the UN prior to the Partition Plan based on their religious historical rights……it was thrown out as unacceptable. Then the Partition Plan was offered and Zionists went hell for leather getting support for the Partition Plan. Some politicians claim it was the most aggressive lobbying ever seen at the UN with death threats being issued by Zionists if politicians did not support the Partition Plan. That being the case and given Zionists wanted it so badly then ,today, the UN should re-impose the Partition Plan and roll Israel back to its Partition Plan borders that it declared in 1948….they fought so hard at the UN to get them.

      • Froggy
        Froggy
        October 11, 2015, 6:38 pm

        The US would never allow it.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        October 11, 2015, 6:24 pm

        Just a mo! When was there a proper referendum of the Palestinians, as a minimum, to support any partition? Never. That partition proposal is totally invalid and worthless. It is against the UN’s own principles regarding both self-determination and acquisition of territory by war.
        Repeat: there are no 1948 borders either.

      • Froggy
        Froggy
        October 11, 2015, 8:01 pm

        echinococcus : “When was there a proper referendum of the Palestinians, as a minimum, to support any partition?”

        Since when does it matter what Palestinians want?

        “That partition proposal is totally invalid and worthless. It is against the UN’s own principles regarding both self-determination and acquisition of territory by war.”

        Of course it is. However, those ‘principles’ don’t seem to matter. The murder and displacement of the Palestinians continues.

  10. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    October 10, 2015, 5:06 am

    Who is Michael Satlow and why is he so sure that Herod’s Temple was located on the Temple Mount? http://mlsatlow.com/2015/10/09/there-was-a-temple-on-the-temple-mount/

    • diasp0ra
      diasp0ra
      October 10, 2015, 10:54 am

      Yonah, I read your link and there is absolutely nothing of use there. Am I supposed to take his word for it? He presents zero proof, all he says is that he is certain that it’s there.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 10, 2015, 4:22 pm

        @di

        your as idiotic as the bible wackers in the US who don’t want to teach evolution because it can’t be absolutely backed up by facts they they themselves can stand behind. there are apparently no facts that would convince you and those that think like you and have such “doubt”. i imagine many here would laugh off the ‘creationists’ but can’t see how similar they are in limitation of intellect in reference to why al-aqsa was built where it was and what the rock is in Dome of the Rock. Such foolishness.

      • diasp0ra
        diasp0ra
        October 10, 2015, 4:44 pm

        @DaBakr

        First of all, thank you for the kind insult.

        Second of all, false equivalence.

        Evolution can absolutely be backed up by facts, there are a million arguments for it and a million supporting theories, and in fact, whole areas of study dedicated to it.

        You made a claim, now back it up with ANYTHING. The link above had no information. All he said was that it was there. Hardly convincing proof. Can you point me to the proof in the link?

        Refusing to believe facts is not the same as there not being any facts to begin with. Facts can be objectively proven.

        This comparison is absurd.

        The Aqsa was built there due to the Isra’ and Mi’raj story in Islam, the night journey. As I stated before.

        If I’m so idiotic, please present me with proof of my idiocy. You’ve been looking for proof for literally years under the Aqsa and have come up empty handed. The burden of proof is on those that have a claim.

        So prove it. Or stop throwing basic insults with misspelled words. Either or.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 10, 2015, 6:09 pm

        @di
        you forgot to answer what the rock is under the Dome of the Rock sherlock

        also: a bit moronic stating that the reason-or fact as you seem to imply- al-aqsa is there in the first place was because a flying horse touched its heel there before making the night journey with Mohamed on his back. but then that is a completely different idiotic discussion

        I will concede one point. I am sure the Muslim conquerers and colonists never imagined that a bunch of Israelites would return over a 1000 yrs later and lay claim to same site they themselves claimed for Islam. Especially Jews who were and are not willing to be dhimmies and pay monies for permission to live there.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 6:42 pm

        Dabakr

        the Arab Conquerors joined the inhabitants of Palestine and intermarried with them and now they are inseparable.

        the colonist are the european/ Khazars who came to Palestine to build a state for themselves on the ruins of our cities which they distroyed just like their claimed ancestors invaded and slaughtered the native inhabitant of palestine 1000’s of years ago.

        They were invaders then and they are invaders now.

        ” I am sure the Muslim conquerers and colonists never imagined that a bunch of Israelites would return over a 1000 yrs later”

        actually they imagined it since Palestine were a very busy place for various forces of conquest like the crusades, the mongols . and it always had a happy ending for us.

        Go build your temple somewhere else and get over it.
        you will never pray there so stop dreaming.

      • diasp0ra
        diasp0ra
        October 10, 2015, 6:44 pm

        @DB

        No I didn’t forget, it’s irrelevant to what I said. Where is it stated that this rock is part of the temple?

        Oh, are we going to go into what is moronic now? Are we going to play “my religion is right and yours is stupid”? Please, spare me the 8th grade antics, I won’t engage in that.

        Once again, you deflect with irrelevant information. Where is your proof that the Temple once stood on the same exact spot Al-Aqsa was built on.

        If you can’t provide proof please don’t bother with a response, I’m not too keen on arguing with you if you have no argument.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 10, 2015, 7:13 pm

        @di

        as I expected your missing the point completely and are assuming I am on to some kind of religious superiority which I am not. Why do you think its irrelevant to the discussion what the rock under the Dome of the Rock symbolizes to both Muslims and Jews (Christians as well)?

        @z

        just like one persons terrorist os the next persons freedom fighter one persons colonists are the next persons marauding hordes of conquistadors. And it absurdly boils down to :

        You and I both should ‘get over it’ though that term means completely different things as well as colonist, terrorist and conquerer and Khazar to each of us. But-for now-in real time history-you lost the last wars. Everybody conquered assimilates eventually and maybe you think it will all workout in your favour as it ‘always has’ but your meaningless arguments about the origins of all but handful of Asiatic Jews being Khazar’s and european colonialists will not get you any closer to what you want.

        You keep praying for the day that Muslim Arabs (since the second Palestinians would theoretically get all of historical Palestine back they would unite with Jordan) gain back total -not just the Waqf- control all of the olde city and all of the ‘3rd holiest site’ and we’ll see how much changes as I will hope for the mount to be shared by the two faiths that revere it.

        For the foreseeable future-that is exactly what you will have to “get over”. In the meantime…there are probably 10x more mosques in Israel for Muslims to peacefully pray then there are synagogs in the entirety of the Arab nations.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 9:20 pm

        Your lengthy comment boils down to : We won the war and we are strong you are weak.

        Since you believe that force and military power entitles you to something, then never complain about terrorism or violence directed towards you, since they are basically using the only language you understand

        Using the logic of power usually leads to a very nasty end to the one who once held it.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 10, 2015, 9:21 pm

        @ DaBakr

        “But-for now-in real time history-you lost the last wars”

        Uh? It’s the same war started by Zionist Federation 1897 and continued by Israel having military forces in non-Israeli territory as Israel was being proclaimed at 00:01 May 15th 1048 (ME time) as ” an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.” and it ain’t over …

        “Everybody conquered assimilates eventually”

        Uh huh, Jews adopted Roman ethics, culture, religion, names? WOW! I guess someone has to rewrite history

        “You keep praying for the day that …”

        Evidence?

        “In the meantime…there are probably 10x more mosques in Israel for Muslims to peacefully pray then there are synagogs in the entirety of the Arab nations”

        And there are far more bars in Israel than there are in Saudi Arabia … neither of which are relevant to Israel being in breach of its proclaimed borders for 67 years

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 10, 2015, 9:37 pm

        @z
        Say the one who basically states ‘just wait and see what you’ll get for occupying our land for all these years’. its the same repetitive threat, over and over. we get it. we’ve heard it all before, 60+ yrs of it. this article was about the supposed lack of proof that the two Temples were built where the temple mount is. it is a patently moronic argument to all scholars of history except those who judge history on only narrow religious beliefs. argue the world is flat. argue creationism, argue the Romans and Greeks never wrote historical descriptions of/about Herod’s temple being one of the ‘wonders of the world’. Argue the detailed accounts of the Romans battle with the Zealots in the city did not describe their taking refuge on the mount. Argue with the Islamic, Jewish and Christian scholars who support no such controversy whatsoever that the temple existed where the mosques are now.
        As I said-it only serves the ignorant. Those who believe the Israelis are really Khazzars. Those who believe the Jews were in cahoots with the Nazis. have a field day pretending that it is I who is lusting after any potential coming violence. Its easy to see through that gauze.

        @t

        unsurprisingly you turn the topic from the Temple Mount to your hatred of Zionism which is what it all boils down to for you. You don’t really care wether the temple was there or not as long as Zionism and Israel is destroyed with it.

      • James North
        James North
        October 10, 2015, 9:58 pm

        DaBakr: Learn to read. You say,

        this article was about the supposed lack of proof that the two Temples were built where the temple mount is.

        I’m the co-writer of this article, and you are completely wrong. This article is “about” the New York Times’s efforts to downplay the fact that Israeli extremists actually want to blow up 2 beautiful 1300-year-old mosques, and that Palestinians might be exercised about this.

        Your intemperate responses have only shown the increasing number of visitors to this site just how extreme many Israelis are.

        Hasbara Central ought to review your contract. With every one of your comments, you lose support for your messianic views.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 10, 2015, 9:43 pm

        Tpyo Correction:

        Israel … proclaimed at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) as ” an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.”

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 10, 2015, 9:47 pm

        @z

        tell me what Arab leader or what Arab on the street that does not believe that only “force and military power” is the way to dislodge the Jews from Muslim/Palestinian/Arab lands. There are entire armies in foreign lands dedicated to violently re-conquering Al-Quds from the Zionist Entity, the Yahuds or ‘the affliction’. whatever. play games.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 10, 2015, 10:00 pm

        DaBakr “unsurprisingly you turn the topic from the Temple Mount to your hatred of Zionism which is what it all boils down to for you. You don’t really care wether the temple was there or not as long as Zionism and Israel is destroyed with it.”

        Unsurprisingly you have to make it up. Why am I unsurprised … http://mondoweiss.net/profile/talknic

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 10:47 pm

        Dabakr

        “Say the one who basically states ‘just wait and see what you’ll get for occupying our land for all these years’. its the same repetitive threat, over and over”

        I never said that!!!

        moderator Please action.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        October 10, 2015, 10:47 pm

        Bakr: “tell me what Arab leader or what Arab on the street that does not believe that only “force and military power” is the way to dislodge the Jews from Muslim/Palestinian/Arab lands.”
        If you mean the Zionists, not Jews, and Palestine, not just anywhere, then show me one single sane person in the world who doesn’t believe that. Even though sanity is not your strong suit, you yourself can’t tell me that the Zionists will ever leave or even relent the occupation voluntarily for a single minute.

        “There are entire armies in foreign lands dedicated to violently re-conquering Al-Quds from the Zionist Entity, the Yahuds or ‘the affliction’, whatever.”

        Oh yeah? That’s news! Address, please! I’m too old to enlist but can always send a check.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 11, 2015, 1:14 am

        @jn

        oh how right you are. I could care less about your biased and skewed take on some (very few) Jewish religious zealots who might think they could “blow up” the 2 mosques. This is the complete and total BS that Abbas and countless other Arab leaders have been feeding their ignorant masses to rile up throngs and inciting the Muslim world to seeth with completely false notions of what Israel’s intention are in regards to the Temple Mount. The real ‘right-wing’ in Israel has no intention of harming a single tile of either the Dome or al-aqsa and this has been made clear so many f’n times by everyone from Begin, Sharon to Netanyahu. No Israeli except for the fanatical few want any harm to come to the mount or its Islamic structures. Israeli Jews do not deny the importance of Islam to the culture of Jerusalem- Even though the Muslims are constantly inciting violence with false claims about the Jews intention to destroy al-aqsa.

        And you-and your articles are part and parcel of this incitement which is obviously intended to push things to impossibly violent conditions which you will then spend weeks accusing Jews and Zionists of riling up in the first place.

        As for your contention about my being some kind of ‘professional’ Hasbarist? What a joke. All Israelis who are loyal to our nation (including the many Druze and fewer Bedouin and handful of Palestinians) can and should act as Hasbarist imo.

        But you-you are the one who is a paid hasbarist for the Palestinian PR machine which you deny even exists and like to portray as strictly ‘grass-roots’ which is another big bunch of BS (which I suppose now-a dozen commenters will challenge me to “prove” by linkage. forget it. Oi. And I can just imagine when the funny man mosser gets here to make trivial puns and asinine ephemeral commentary.

        But yes-your absolutely right that I am not writing about your garbage journalism. I am writing about the premise of the NYT even printing an article hinting that there may be some factual reasons to assume the 2nd temple may not have an historical connection to the mount. (and therefore neither did the first) There is certainly not enough time and space to cite the dozens of reasons why Gladstones piece was incendiary in purpose and presents the issue as if serious religious scholars are engaged in some dispute when it is strictly the asinine , politically opportunistic or racist who truly engage in any controversy over the location of the Jewish temples.

        @tk
        as for your proof. your kind of proof doesn’t really exist as you have some type of neurotic oppositional Zionist disorder. But if it was good enough for the Waqf in 1929 it should be good enough for you. The Waqf published a guide to the Haram al-Sharif in 1929 that says”that it was

        the site of Solomons temple is beyond dispute” and….”universally believed to be the location where David built an altar unto the Lord….” you can look up the Waqf’s guidebook since its unlikely you would accept that as fact. after all-its just another religious figures words.

        @z
        i get it. your angry. you want justice. you want the temples respected. you want the land back and you probably don’t like mick jagger’s song writing either.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 11, 2015, 11:39 am

        “Hasbara Central ought to review your contract. With every one of your comments, you lose support for your messianic views.”

        Mr. North, I am sorry, but you have gone too far! I will not stand for this. Perhaps it is ethnic chauvinism, or Jewish exceptionalism, but goddam it, I think that if a bunch of Jews (I mean, who else would be there?) at Hasbara Central hired people to troll blogs they would get something for their money!

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 11, 2015, 2:00 pm

        @D

        Your evidence is a Waqf tourists Guide written in English in the 20th century !

        A nice gesture to jewish and christian tourists cannot be considered an evidence.they were simply echoing your narrative to promote visitors and used a bible verse that mentions solomon building a temple somewhere in the land of Canaan rather than a Quraanic verse.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 11, 2015, 9:48 pm

        @z
        yes. so it was a tourist guide from the Waqf circa ’29. They didn’t have to stress “indisputable” just to draw in tourists and your only guessing. you can’t stand to be corrected. besides-you know all the proof you need is in the quran. the argument is getting completely ridiculous and besides-the newspaper of ‘record’ in all its biased glory-both ant-Israeli and anti-Palestinian has revised and corrected the story to reflect the fact that any so-called ‘controversy’ is limited to the location within the bounds of the mount and not outside. of course you know this because PW had a conniption fit about it today. He’s incredulous! I’m satisfied with that correction as I am sure many who do not identify as particularly Zionist do as well.

        @ms
        i figured you couldnt’ resist keeping your nose out of this and refrain from making an inane comment. how perfectly stultifying.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 11, 2015, 10:52 pm

        ” how perfectly stultifying.”

        Well, you know me, “Dabakr” I’m “incredulous”!

        And I stick by what I say. If Hasbara Central employed people to troll this blog, they would be ashamed of a performance like yours. They would have some professional standards, and at the least, would try to leave a decent taste in people’s mouths. Damn it, “Dabakr” we have stereotypes to uphold!

        In fact, I don’t believe you are employed by Hasbara Central at all, Dabakr! I think you are just an individual motivated by an abiding sense of entitlement and an inability to keep your mouth shut, and full of a lot of ugly ideas you take a very unpleasant pride in displaying, because you’re on the end of a wire.
        Now go ahead, “Dabakr”, prove me wrong!

  11. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    October 10, 2015, 5:11 am

    If you believe in the (divine origin of the) Koran, then the Koran backs up Jewish affinity towards the Temple Mount and the angel Gabriel would have been fully cognizant of the Jewish holy spot of the Temple. If you don’t believe in the Koran, then Muhammad, who never set foot in Jerusalem, when he speaks or refers to a visit to Jerusalem would be attempting to utilize the historic holiness of the spot to verify his assertions to being the new prophet to end all prophets. so either way: the fact that the mosques are there is a proof that the temple was nearby.

    • zaid
      zaid
      October 10, 2015, 6:10 pm

      It doesn’t matter if Muhammad stepped there or not.what matters is that the early Muslims built a mosque /shrine there and it is the same mosque you see today.

      Islam venerates the site due to Muhammad visit there with no reffernce to the temple which is not even mentioned in the quraan. Actually there are no reference to Palestine being the place where Abraham and other prophets lived. You can actually believe that Abraham lived in China and you would still be within the Quranic boundaries.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 10, 2015, 6:39 pm

        @z
        correct. and there is no mention of Jerusalem in the Koran either. So who decided that the spot where the Israelites Temple and the ‘rock’ (Issac/Ismael) is would be the place where Muhamed ascended? Obviously Muslims venerated this spot, but not more then Mecca or Medina. But I seriously suspect the religious authorities, engineers , believers and infidels all knew why the mosques were built on that particular hill at the time they were built and long after.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 9:34 pm

        @D

        ” So who decided that the spot where the Israelites Temple and the ‘rock’ (Issac/Ismael) is would be the place where Muhamed ascended?”

        The early muslims (muhammad companions) did decide where muhammed ascended to heaven and they built a beautiful shrine and mosque there so it is now Islamic.

        Again, the reason why muslims venerate the rock is that they believed it is where muhammad ascended to heaven and not its link to Abraham/Isaac story. Actually muslims believe that Abraham tried to sacrifice Ismael in Mecca and not in Palestine.

        can you provide me with a biblical description of the temple with a mention of a certain rock of religious importance being part of it.can you show me a pre Islamic mention of this rock.

        I believe that probably Jews decided that this rock is of an importance only because muslims showed interest in it.

        Finally despite what i said above i have to repeat that this discussion is of no value to the issue of the Alaqsa compound and it is important to repeat my first comment on this subject :

        The history of an extinct structure have no bearing on the status of an extant structure.

        Get over it Dabakr, go build your temple some where else, you are never going to pray there so stop dreaming.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 10, 2015, 10:32 pm

        @Z

        so let me get this straight. Even though Jerusalem was a very well known city at the time of Mohamed’s life and yet there is not one mention of it in the Koran somehow-his disciples decided-out of the blue-and with no relation to the already holy status of the city to the ‘people of the book’ that his flying horse touched his hoof on some random rock on that particular hill in an unnamed city.
        I personally do not need to pray anywhere but some people do. You want to make your prediction filled with repressed bloodlust while telling me to “get over it” is fine. I don’t know what the future holds and can only guess based on past and current situations. I know Israels demise has been predicted to be coming any year, month, day for over 60yrs so I sup[pose anyone can say anything they like about what will happen in the future.

        As for the past-if you want to erase the Jewish connection to Jerusalem, David, Solomon, Herod, Jesus the Jew and the Temples you’ll have to make like the Taliban and Isis and start blowing up evidence, burning historical scrolls and texts and make it all disappear like Palmyra and the Buddhas of Bamiyan. And I dare say there are some crazy zealot Jews who would agree with this strategy as well and erase the history of Islam in Jerusalem. Two peas in a pod.

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 10, 2015, 11:46 pm

        Jerusalem is not mentioned but Alaqsa is mentioned, and no, his disciplines didnot decide out of the blue, he described to them which location dummy….feel free to ask them when you see them.

        now stop with the stupid discussion about a rock and lets enjoy the beauty of this islamic marvel that you will never ever get to pray in

        http://www.demotix.com/news/2377910/eid-al-fitr-prayers-dome-rock#media-2377882

      • eljay
        eljay
        October 10, 2015, 11:50 pm

        || DaBakr: As for the past-if you want to erase the Jewish connection to Jerusalem … you’ll have to make like the Taliban and Isis … ||

        And Zio-supremacists who have been working diligently erasing the connection of Palestine’s indigenous population to Palestine.

        || … Two peas in a pod. ||

        Three hateful and immoral peas.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 10, 2015, 11:55 pm

        @z

        “described the location dummy” but neglected to mention the well established 1000 yr old + city that had been there and where the flying horse was going to touch a rock before ascension to heaven. I get how logical it all seems to you. and thanks. I have and will enjoy the marvel of the Dome and al-aqsa and have no intention of praying in them. It would be an historical atrocity should any harm come to them via devious human means and as much a tragedy should any harm come to them by any means. I personally don’t know anybody who wishes harm to any of the structure on top of or surrounding the temple mount or anybody who would not to stop anybody who did intend any harm. The Islamic culture in Jerusalem is as integral as is Christian or Jewish culture to the cities importance.

      • Froggy
        Froggy
        October 11, 2015, 9:11 am

        Da Bakr : “It would be an historical atrocity should any harm come to them via devious human means and as much a tragedy should any harm come to them by any means. I personally don’t know anybody who wishes harm to any of the structure on top of or surrounding the temple mount or anybody who would not to stop anybody who did intend any harm. The Islamic culture in Jerusalem is as integral as is Christian or Jewish culture to the cities importance.”

        I’m happy you think this way.

        Not all Jews do.

        I’m well aware that every country, culture, and religion has its extremists. I wouldn’t expect the Jews to be any different. What I wonder is how many Jews/and Jewish Zionists think as do the Jews in this video.

        I’m ignoring the American evangelicals, as they have no real power or influence over what the Israelis decide to do.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 11, 2015, 5:39 am

        @ DaBakr “so let me get this straight…”

        Get this straight first. Jerusalem is not in Israel. http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/b86613e7d92097880525672e007227a7/6de6da8a650b4c3b852560df00663826?OpenDocument

      • just
        just
        October 11, 2015, 6:11 am

        Thanks for setting Da and the record straight, talknic and zaid.

        (never mind that Da (D’oh!) will still deny the truth and will persist in his favorite raison d’être by spreading zio- fairy tales and hasbara! It still worth challenging the historically and fact- challenged.)

      • zaid
        zaid
        October 11, 2015, 2:36 pm

        Yes it makes sense to me. actually , this i exactly what happened.

        Alisraa &Al Miraj is mentioned in the Quraan with no association of it with the temple/solomon so why should he mention that.

        Show me one evidence that links the Israa and Miraj of Muhammad to the Solomon temple from the Quraan.

        Show me one jewish Pre islamic mention of this particular mount/Rock in this particular place.

        when you hear messianic Zionists like you (some are Christians) talking about temple mount you think they have an enormous textual and other evidence, but when you discuss with them you see they have absolutely nothing.they are completely broke.they are so pathetic that they have to borrow and twist islamic literature to find any link to the place.Just Pathetic.

        As for you saying that you dont want to destroy the mosque:

        HAHA if that was the case then why the hell are you even discussing the issue and why do radical Jews insist on visiting the place.are they Fans of Islamic architecture and calligraphy or do they like to listen to Quraanic recitations.

        now let me add some spice to the subject, do you know that not a single rock on the western wall is actually from the solomon claimed time frame, do you know that the rocks you stick a paper in are actually built by muslims and arabs, and do you know that King Herod was actualy….well you guessed it an ARAB.

        Get over it D , Go build your temple somewhere else and lets move on.

      • bryan
        bryan
        October 12, 2015, 2:00 pm

        @DaBakr – I cannot find any reference in the Holy Book to Brooklyn, but numerous people are very happy to live there. I suspect people hugely overestimate the influence of these ancient tomes.

    • eljay
      eljay
      October 10, 2015, 10:21 pm

      || yonah fredman: If you believe in the (divine origin of the) Koran, then the Koran backs up Jewish affinity towards the Temple Mount … If you don’t believe in the Koran, then Muhammad … would be attempting to utilize the historic holiness of the spot to verify his assertions to being the new prophet to end all prophets. so either way: the fact that the mosques are there is a proof that the temple was nearby. ||

      Not really. By your own argument, the existence of the mosques is proof only of:
      – an affinity for a location; or
      – the contrived “historic holiness” of that location.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      October 11, 2015, 2:29 am

      I’m fed up with this. The entire Haram ash-Sharif was built on the site of Fort Antonia. The Western Wall is Roman.

      No-one knows where the actual temple was, but, wherever it was, by the powers vested in me by my Latin teacher, I hereby reclaim it for Jupiter Capitolinus, and demand that his temple be rebuilt there.

      With lots of casescues around the pediment.

  12. John O
    John O
    October 10, 2015, 12:40 pm

    One notable building in the East End of London is 59 Brick Lane, Spitalfields. First a Huguenot church, then a Methodist chapel, a synagogue and now a mosque.

    For nearly three centuries a place of worship for immigrants and refugees arriving at the London docks.

    And not a drop of blood spilt over it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_Lane_Mosque

    • DaBakr
      DaBakr
      October 10, 2015, 6:33 pm

      The US has literally 1000s of urban churches that have been subsequently purchased by other religious orders for use to worship as they see fit. Protestant-Catholic. Synagogue to Baptist, Church to Mosque, or Hindu or Buddhist temple. No blood spilled and no surprise either.

      But then change the parameter to Christians trying to take over Mecca or claim the Kabbah. Muslims taking possession of the Vatican, Lumbini or turning the Holy Sepulcher into a mosque. Then you have a bit closer analogy to the Temple Mount and the conflicts surrounding it. There is only one holy of holies in Judaism and Jerusalem and the temple are mentioned 100s of times in its Bible. While it was never written who should control the site were it to fall in the future to foreign colonists it was never disputed as the holiest place in the religion. Now, if it were the “third” holiest place…you might say the Israelis were greedy for not being satisfied with two holiest places. hmm.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 10, 2015, 9:50 pm

        @ DaBakr

        “But then change the parameter to Christians trying to take over Mecca or claim the Kabbah”

        Uh? They’re not and why would they?

        “Muslims taking possession of the Vatican, Lumbini or turning the Holy Sepulcher into a mosque”

        Again, they’re not and why would they?

        ” Then you have a bit closer analogy to the Temple Mount and the conflicts surrounding it”

        Actually you have ziononsense. Muslims built their edifice centuries after Jews lost it …. to the Romans

        “There is only one holy of holies in Judaism and Jerusalem and the temple are mentioned 100s of times in its Bible.”

        Irrelevant to Israel being in breach of its proclaimed borders and International Law for 67 years and Israel’s illegal activities in territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

        Jewish folk could have returned for almost 2,000 years, we didn’t. Even Herzl in his life time could have immigrated to Palestine, gained legal citizenship , bought land and settled anywhere within the Jewish People’s Historic Home land. He didn’t bother.

  13. RoHa
    RoHa
    October 10, 2015, 7:53 pm

    “And not a drop of blood spilt over it.”

    You can’t expect poor immigrants to understand the niceties of religion.

  14. Sibiriak
    Sibiriak
    October 10, 2015, 10:52 pm

    A small historical footnote to the Temple/Mosque issue:

    —————-

    “The pedigree of Christian Zionism, as we saw, goes back to the Anglican secession and the Puritan settlement in North America. The Israeli capture of the West Bank and Jerusalem in the Six-Day War of 1967 worked to activate this heritage. These were signs that the Second Coming was imminent, and indeed from 1977, the right-wing Likud government of Israel and US fundamentalists entered into actual collaboration.

    Falwell in 1979 received a private jet from Prime Minister Menachem Begin; a year later, uniquely for a non-Jew, he was awarded the prestigious Jabotinsky Medal, named after the right-wing Zionist to whom we return in the next section. When Israel bombed Iraq’s nuclear reactor in 1981, Mearsheimer and Walt record (2007: 136), Begin called Falwell before he notified Reagan.

    The ‘War on Terror’ of the Bush II years was not just a political strategy to outlaw and pre-empt resistance to the West’s global hegemony. It also represented a high point of Israeli influence on Western policy. This can be traced back, as I have argued elsewhere (2006: 203, 235), to a series of conferences, the first one held in Jerusalem in 1979, intended to convince key US policy makers, including George Bush, sen., that national liberation struggles should be rebranded as ‘terrorism’, and that this terrorism was directed from Moscow – an idea picked up by Reagan’s first secretary of state, Alexander Haig.

    Both pro-Israel neoconservatives and Christian Zionists were actively involved in this turnabout. Protestant fundamentalists in the United States supported the ongoing colonisation of Palestine by funding the building of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories; according to Phillips (2004: 231), one-third were funded by American evangelicals.

    The California-based Jerusalem Temple Foundation, which supports the geophysical research for the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, provided legal aid to the Israelis who were caught trying to blow up the Al-Aqsa Mosque in 1983 (in order to clear the ground for a rebuilding of the Hebrew temple).”

    ——————-

    Kees van der Pijl, “The Foreign Encounter in Myth and Religion: Modes of Foreign Relations and Political Economy” Volume II: (p. 188).

  15. mcohen.
    mcohen.
    October 11, 2015, 12:41 am

    Not the first time an earthquake has destroyed buildings on the temple mount.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 12, 2015, 11:19 am

      “Not the first time an earthquake has destroyed buildings on the temple mount.”

      Okay, “mcohen”, here’s the plan. We use the Internet, see? We all hook up on Facebook, and every Jew (or as many as we can get, but I’m sure it’ll be close to 100%) will jump up and down while facing Jerusalem (all the info will be on the web page) at the proper angle, and ka-boom the Mosque falls over!

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